Sebastian Morello and Brian Scarffe also had an interesting response to Kingsnorth. I would recommend checking out their podcast ‘Gnostalgia’ on reclaiming Theurgical Cosmic Christianity and Platonic England.
Great analysis, thank you! Just a quick off-topic question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). Could you explain how to move them to Binance?
52:34 There's a counterfactual with this, because the fruit of his, (increasingly radical efforts, i.e. demands for monetary reparations etc.), lead to children being forced at military gunpoint into schooling environments that, due in no small part to their involuntary nature, greatly damaged the quality of their education & inserted dischord & increasingly vengeful chaos into not just the schools but society more widely & grew to spread this vengeful chaos as a cultural contagion that destroyed the peace of peoples & places beyond the US that had previously been more successful in resolving racial strife by their own different paths. (& that's keeping aside the fact that MLK was handled by a communist team who wrote many of his speeches, that he plagiarised his doctorate, denied the divinity of Christ, was an unrepentant serial adulterer, corruptor of parisheners morals and an accesory to a rape.)
Thanks for this. You confirmed some instincts I had about the lecture. I'm very respectful of his message, but alas, a bit bloody naively over the top at times. PS: Given a choice between neo lib-con Hyrsi Ali's tactical conversion and Kingsnorth, I'll take Paul anytime all day long... fugghedaboudit!
Thanks Thomas. I think it’s harsh to call AHA’s a tactical conversion. She’s spoken elsewhere about her personal need for God. And it’s not a choice between these two positions in any case as I tried to point out in my response. J
@irreverendfaithandcurrenta1843 Perhaps. Obviouly I don't know the woman. One never knows another's heart. That is the business of God. But I was trying to make the point of her and her bunch, most especially her husband Nial Ferguson as the worst examples of neo lib-con corporate and capitalist vampires. I'm very suspect of Peterson too. With the Ukrainean debacle and open genocide in Gaza, bringing us to the brink of World War, which that cabal if not openly touts, keeps very suspiciously silent about, it matters little to me what faith or lack thereof these trumped up so called intetellectuals profess and hide behind. "You shall know them by there works." Sorry to go on there, mate but as far as Kingsnorths metaphysic is concerned, naive as it may be, at least he isn't getting any one killed or condoning the slaughter of women and children for Geo political and strategic mishegoss. So with all due respect, sir, I'm sorry, no... it's a huge chasm of a choice. Merry Chtistmas and a happy New Year! 😊 ☺️ ✨️
Like many there's something I really like about Kingsnorth, however, the clear problem with his vision of things is that it makes moral exclusions on non moral grounds & asserts an exclusion of things outside his vision of how things should be that he hasn't the authority to, (though to be fair he doesn't claim the authority but his passionate assertions implies a moral high-ground & his words indicate a desire to eradicate things outside his naturalisitic vision of the good).
To be against Christian Civilization is to be against God's work and to deny the benefits that have been brought to many nations of the world through the establishing of the Church in them. As Scripture prophesied, kings and queens became helpers of the Church and its mission to bring people to faith and righteousness. Kingdoms of this world have become kingdoms of our God and of his Christ, millions have been reconciled to God and neighbour, and social conditions have become more humane. Of course, this work has always been marred by people's sin, and there has always been a strugggle to restrain evil and uphold the good, something which God holds rulers responsible to use force to do, as the Church gives the ideal and spiritual strength to promote truth and goodness. We are witnessing today a revolt against the Church and goodness. These are days of apostasy within the historic churches, including Rome, Canterbury, Constantinople etc.
Just my two pennies worth but I thought PK went a bit rogue in that lecture because he has made a name for himself as 'the man who is against the machine' and yet there he was, fresh off the plane, standing at a lectern, wearing a tie, taking the shilling from corporate America's religious right. He was saying what his fan base expects to hear because, as he points out himself, they're the ones who provide him with an income via Substack etc.
The claim about hunter gatherers having much longer lifespans has an element of truth to it but it depends on the context. Agriculture and hunter gathering has happened all over the world throughout history. There is evidence that farmers often had a lower calorie and nutritional count. Agriculture also spawned urban living which brought disease etc. It also created surplus which meant more opportunities for oppression. However it is way more complicated than that. Many hunter gatherer societies were plagued by endless petty fighting against rivals. Broadly speaking I think we should be living more like hunter gatherers or replicating their lifestyle in many ways. But a society that abandons agriculture and urbanism en masse will simply be conquered by those that haven’t. Hunter gatherer societies are also less able to sustain large populations. You could never have a welfare safety net. In many ways it would be quite a tooth in claw existence in which only the strong survive. Whereas thousands of peasants could survive and pass on their genes even if they were fairly miserable
Sorry, I think you completely misunderstood Paul Kingsnorth. He is doubting the idea of mechanical-technological (machine-like) features of civilisation and argues that to stick a Christian label onto this machine is not enough to "tame" it. Paul is no fool and not ignorant either.
I'm sorry but this is just not what Kingsnorth says in this lecture. It's far broader than that. I even played a clip in which he says, "It's not just Christian civilisation. It's all civilisation." Meaning that all civilisation is inimical to the purposes of God. He doesn't talk only about 'mechanical-technological features of civilization' as you say but civilisation in general. And, even if he did, my critique of his handling of the question of hospitals would still apply because hospitals must rely to some extent upon mechanisms and technology. Also, if you listened to my argument outlined here, you will know that I am not proposing trying to "tame" civilisation by calling it Christian but I am saying that Western Civilisation has been fundamentally intertwined with Christianity from the beginning (some Kingsnorth says in the beginning of this lecture) and has been all the better for it...until now. J
Thank you for this Jamie, very helpful. I usually have a lot of time for Paul Kingsnorth but, like you, I found that his lecture made some odd claims, especially coming from an Eastern Orthodox Christian.
It is a very silly thing to say. It is well accepted to comment on a particular work. It is useful to make it clear that the comment excludes other works and this is precisely what Jamie did.
The Bible begins with a garden (Gen 2.8) but ends with a city (Rev 21.10).
Sebastian Morello and Brian Scarffe also had an interesting response to Kingsnorth. I would recommend checking out their podcast ‘Gnostalgia’ on reclaiming Theurgical Cosmic Christianity and Platonic England.
Thanks. Sounds interesting! J
Great analysis, thank you! Just a quick off-topic question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). Could you explain how to move them to Binance?
52:34 There's a counterfactual with this, because the fruit of his, (increasingly radical efforts, i.e. demands for monetary reparations etc.), lead to children being forced at military gunpoint into schooling environments that, due in no small part to their involuntary nature, greatly damaged the quality of their education & inserted dischord & increasingly vengeful chaos into not just the schools but society more widely & grew to spread this vengeful chaos as a cultural contagion that destroyed the peace of peoples & places beyond the US that had previously been more successful in resolving racial strife by their own different paths.
(& that's keeping aside the fact that MLK was handled by a communist team who wrote many of his speeches, that he plagiarised his doctorate, denied the divinity of Christ, was an unrepentant serial adulterer, corruptor of parisheners morals and an accesory to a rape.)
Thanks for this. You confirmed some instincts I had about the lecture. I'm very respectful of his message, but alas, a bit bloody naively over the top at times.
PS: Given a choice between neo lib-con Hyrsi Ali's tactical conversion and Kingsnorth, I'll take Paul anytime all day long... fugghedaboudit!
Thanks Thomas. I think it’s harsh to call AHA’s a tactical conversion. She’s spoken elsewhere about her personal need for God. And it’s not a choice between these two positions in any case as I tried to point out in my response. J
@irreverendfaithandcurrenta1843 Perhaps. Obviouly I don't know the woman. One never knows another's heart. That is the business of God.
But I was trying to make the point of her and her bunch, most especially her husband Nial Ferguson as the worst examples of neo lib-con corporate and capitalist vampires. I'm very suspect of Peterson too. With the Ukrainean debacle and open genocide in Gaza, bringing us to the brink of World War, which that cabal if not openly touts, keeps very suspiciously silent about, it matters little to me what faith or lack thereof these trumped up so called intetellectuals profess and hide behind. "You shall know them by there works."
Sorry to go on there, mate but as far as Kingsnorths metaphysic is concerned, naive as it may be, at least he isn't getting any one killed or condoning the slaughter of women and children for Geo
political and strategic mishegoss. So with all due respect, sir, I'm sorry, no... it's a huge chasm of a choice.
Merry Chtistmas and a happy New Year! 😊 ☺️ ✨️
Like many there's something I really like about Kingsnorth, however, the clear problem with his vision of things is that it makes moral exclusions on non moral grounds & asserts an exclusion of things outside his vision of how things should be that he hasn't the authority to, (though to be fair he doesn't claim the authority but his passionate assertions implies a moral high-ground & his words indicate a desire to eradicate things outside his naturalisitic vision of the good).
To be against Christian Civilization is to be against God's work and to deny the benefits that have been brought to many nations of the world through the establishing of the Church in them. As Scripture prophesied, kings and queens became helpers of the Church and its mission to bring people to faith and righteousness. Kingdoms of this world have become kingdoms of our God and of his Christ, millions have been reconciled to God and neighbour, and social conditions have become more humane. Of course, this work has always been marred by people's sin, and there has always been a strugggle to restrain evil and uphold the good, something which God holds rulers responsible to use force to do, as the Church gives the ideal and spiritual strength to promote truth and goodness. We are witnessing today a revolt against the Church and goodness. These are days of apostasy within the historic churches, including Rome, Canterbury, Constantinople etc.
Just my two pennies worth but I thought PK went a bit rogue in that lecture because he has made a name for himself as 'the man who is against the machine' and yet there he was, fresh off the plane, standing at a lectern, wearing a tie, taking the shilling from corporate America's religious right. He was saying what his fan base expects to hear because, as he points out himself, they're the ones who provide him with an income via Substack etc.
Thank you. That's interesting. I suppose the other way to look at it was that he was taking the opportunity to give em wot for. J
@@irreverendfaithandcurrenta1843 And to be fair, they were literally asking for it!
The claim about hunter gatherers having much longer lifespans has an element of truth to it but it depends on the context. Agriculture and hunter gathering has happened all over the world throughout history. There is evidence that farmers often had a lower calorie and nutritional count. Agriculture also spawned urban living which brought disease etc. It also created surplus which meant more opportunities for oppression. However it is way more complicated than that. Many hunter gatherer societies were plagued by endless petty fighting against rivals. Broadly speaking I think we should be living more like hunter gatherers or replicating their lifestyle in many ways. But a society that abandons agriculture and urbanism en masse will simply be conquered by those that haven’t. Hunter gatherer societies are also less able to sustain large populations. You could never have a welfare safety net. In many ways it would be quite a tooth in claw existence in which only the strong survive. Whereas thousands of peasants could survive and pass on their genes even if they were fairly miserable
Scientists have lifespan data. It's false.
Sorry, I think you completely misunderstood Paul Kingsnorth. He is doubting the idea of mechanical-technological (machine-like) features of civilisation and argues that to stick a Christian label onto this machine is not enough to "tame" it. Paul is no fool and not ignorant either.
I'm sorry but this is just not what Kingsnorth says in this lecture. It's far broader than that. I even played a clip in which he says, "It's not just Christian civilisation. It's all civilisation." Meaning that all civilisation is inimical to the purposes of God. He doesn't talk only about 'mechanical-technological features of civilization' as you say but civilisation in general.
And, even if he did, my critique of his handling of the question of hospitals would still apply because hospitals must rely to some extent upon mechanisms and technology. Also, if you listened to my argument outlined here, you will know that I am not proposing trying to "tame" civilisation by calling it Christian but I am saying that Western Civilisation has been fundamentally intertwined with Christianity from the beginning (some Kingsnorth says in the beginning of this lecture) and has been all the better for it...until now. J
Kingsnorth definitely a tree-hugging activist. Islam is here. Here. He is useless. Maybe worse than useless.
Thank you for this Jamie, very helpful. I usually have a lot of time for Paul Kingsnorth but, like you, I found that his lecture made some odd claims, especially coming from an Eastern Orthodox Christian.
I agree Andrew. Thank you. J
He's example A for why the Bible looks askance at new believers' teaching.
Exactly @@bobtaylor170
So you haven't read any of his books.... no need to listen to anything you have to say
I’m responding to a public lecture. What a bizarre thing to say. J
It is a very silly thing to say. It is well accepted to comment on a particular work. It is useful to make it clear that the comment excludes other works and this is precisely what Jamie did.