I think favoritism is the biggest culprit, like how people hold characters so high standards and just say nonsense to not have their fictional characters ego's hurt. Also, great video as always.
The problem with powerscaling is that battle between characters people care about are almost never remotely close. The answer is almost always "yeah this character 1 touch speed blitzes your verse sorry". So it encourages people to make the most disingenuous highballs/lowballs too make it so their characters stand any chance
People just need to find more discussable matchups then lol, or just discuss specific versions of the characters that are closer in power. I'm pretty sure there's some weak-ass versions of The Flash for example.
I’ll never support a term that actively goes out of its way to be insufferable especially Gokutards(FGLK solos) and if you tell someone Goku loses they go crazy, and also just if you like a character they’ll tell you how they suck and lose to anybody
Hate to say it but they find anyway to do this regardless, got your examples here though this is nowhere near all examples. Marvel vs DC saying x character is cooler than the other and dog shitting on another, Anime vs western animation for what is better due to maturity, better animation, or better with topics, as well as anime vs anime with “this is more iconic” It’s a tad disingenuous saying it’s easy due to power scaling as we have managed to have problems of scaling in comparing stuff in an exasperated way.
Yeah I can't even recall the amount of time I've seen. My dude Jason higher speed and slightly more AP than your durability. Speed blitz one shot GG ,get wrecked, all your arguments are invalid.
I have a really good power scaling story. So, I used to work in an after school program for an elementary school right? Two boys came up to me and asked "who would win in a fight, Goku or Superman?" My first thought was 'Ok, there are too many factors.' So I said "they *wouldn't fight, because they're both peaceful and want to protect earth." *We know Goku will not throw the first punch for a sparing match, so don't say he'd force it. They then said "well what if they had to fight?" Now, as their supervisor, I couldn't sit there and commit to this, I had to keep an eye on everyone, so I went to plan B "Well, it depends on what version of each. We have base Goku, SSGoku, SSJSS Goku, Superman, Silver age Superman, Superman 1 million, ect. " I expected them to relent and decide it wasn't worth asking, but they called my bluff and asked "Ok, normal Goku and Normal Superman." I gave them my opinion, they listened, thought about it, and then one said "Ok, makes sense. I still think X would win though because Y." Nobody got mad, nobody called the other a liar, they just respected one another's opinions and debated for the hell of it. Freaking 8 year olds man! Still proud of those boys to this day. They achieved a higher power level than adults 3 times their age.
At the end of the day, Powerscaling is just one the many fun ways fans can engage with a series and other fans. It’s really no different from the speed running and Cosplay communities Can it get toxic? Sure, but that can be said about everything ever
I’ll never support a term that actively goes out of its way to be insufferable especially Gokutards(FGLK solos) and if you tell someone Goku loses they go crazy, and also just if you like a character they’ll tell you how they suck and lose to anybody
@@people2chronically-online well you're in luck because terms can't go out of their way to do anything, they aren't alive. You had a bad anecdotal experience, doesn't mean everyone's like that
Powerscaling and fanfiction are basically two sides of the same coin, powerscaling is basically nerd fantasy football. No hobby is inherently toxic (unless your hobby is trolling), but certain communities make things toxic. As long as people don’t normalize being an asshole things will be fine and if they do then they won’t.
Powerscaling is fine. Powerscalers are the ones ruining it for everyone. If they stayed in their own spaces we wouldn't even be having these conversations
8:54 Way to misrepresent Big N' Stuff. He was not in denial that Jolyne could punch the meteorites but rather the idea that her punches could deliver a force equivalent to a small nuclear bomb. If that were the case then the rest of the story wouldn't make much sense given she would be able to bypass so many obstacles by punching them like those iron bars which she herself stated she couldn't break open. And in that panel, the only thing that is stated is that her punches had a destructive force equivalent to a small high-velocity meteor. It never goes into the exact mathematics of it.
Yeah 100% right. A casual reader wouldn't know that in order to punch a small meteor you have to have a destructive force equal to a small nuclear bomb so that sencence could mean everything. As soon as you do the maths you realize that things don't add up.
In the wise words of Billy: *"Power isn't cringe scaling, you're cringe"* lol But seriously I think it just comes down to when calling any other group or fanbase toxic or cringe: yeah every fan base can be bad but key word CAN. There's always gonna be bad apples in every orchid it's best to ignore them and pick the better ones. It also annoys when people try to bring up Stan Lee's: "It's the writers choice" and act all high and smug about it when it's just annoying. There is no writer in a Vs Debate that's the point of one, there's no one really able to answer the question so people debate and power scale it you're just avoiding the question and not saying anything worthwhile. I think that's all I have to say. Fun video META 👌
Powerscaling and debating is fun, its just that the ppl are annoying. Even if theyre not being toxic, they can just be annoying at times. They either cant comprehend a joke, sh*t on others fun, or are actually chill and understand that powerscaling is just to have fun.
I like power scaling I just hate people making stuff up or adding so many handicaps to their side and pretending it's a fair fight Like Goku vs Vegeta in Saiyan saga. Vegeta won that fight hands down. Only way he lost was getting 3 more people helping Goku. But if it was a real one vs one Goku would have died. People remember it as Goku beating Vegeta. Same with how people imply what the character can do instead of what is actually shown. If one character has martial arts as well as the same level of skill they win automatically. Basically it's an ego trip for people
@@ivanbluecool yeah because one piece has one of the most mysterious Powerscaling, very inconsistent and lack of feats, one piece has one of the weaker verses in terms of power scaling but ngl bleach dogs getting outta hand
@@KingDingDong69 one piece was more on skills but not on the level of Jojo where a power can make you broken if they never figure out how to counter it. Jojo is probably the best balanced as everyone is a human for the most part
@@ivanbluecoolYeah, many Stands in Jojo can be broken if you know how to utilise them. Death 13, for example, is incredibly broken, especially since anyone that get dragged into the dream world cannot retaliate or summon their Stand, unless their Stand is already active before they fall asleep. But, it's useless in real combat because the Stand cannot manifest in the real world, as far as I remember. And also because the user is a defenseless baby.
Yeah, the biggest problem in power scaling is basically favoritism... "I want the character that I like, to win" that mentality ends up turning a good discussion into absurds downgrades or wanks... (Not even gonna coment the fact that it's fictional so there's no base rules/laws of physics or something like that, so it can vary a lot depending of the author, and opinions specially when a feat is not explained in the series, then the explanation lies in the opinion of the public, wich varies, a lot...
powerscaling is mega dumb but still fun. Their laws of physics don't apply to our world's laws of physics, And different fictional verses's also have different laws of physics and rules that only apply to their world so most of the time it's uncomparable. Yeah sure it's fun to do estimations on how strong your favourite characters are, but why can't people just have a friendly debate about it instead of doxxing and insulting each other based on which character is stronger than which.
It 100% can get cringe. I love powerscaling in moderation but when people take it to serious and act like they have a score card of how many times they have to be right or something. that's when it gets quite annoying, only thing is its pretty common for people to act like its competitive or something.
@@NonAryanDuck just cuz you can say that about everyone, doesn't mean on average that other community tends to do that. on average powerscalers are fucking dweebs who attach their ego to a strong fictional character
I get so agrivated by people who look at one feat that happened one time and just completely ignore the characters powers and moveset and ignore the story progressi g there seriously dumb enough to think they do those feats for power scalers and ots not just flashy action sce es to sell money do people not understand these are movies and not documentaries feats in fi tion get messy it's why you should primarily scale based on the story/narrative and logic comparing contrasting there powers to come to the mostlogical outcome not look at one wanked feat that Noone even the directors noticed I literally see people scale Spiderman above hulk using physics
I'm confused why something can't be cringe and fun at the same time, but maybe I'm just too free. Being cringe or being called cringe isn't the end of the world, it feels weird to me that both sides are so hung up about it.
Because to be cringe in this specific instance is to ruin the enjoyment of something for other people. Like having an opinion on a certain character and then getting beat over the head with hyperfixation and extensive research to show not that they have a different opinion than you, but that you're a brain dead idiot for even having your own opinion in the first place. Sometimes its also followed up with the stupid memes and general toxicity that powerscaling can be known for. It gives off basement dweller, never seen a bar of soap, desperately needs to touch grass energy. Like folks have actually threatened each other with physical harm over the capabilities of fictional characters. So yeah usually cringe and fun dont go together like this. Now if we were talking about something that could be seen as "embarrassing" in relation to cringe, then yeah cringe can be fun.
Listen, I apologize if I missed your point but I'm distracted as I write this and only skimmed- Is there some reason that the people calling others cringe have an opinion that matters?
@@ThrillerXero And here we see a wild "anti-power scaler" in its natural habitat. Arguing its points about uninteresting characters winning against actual entertaining characters, thinking that its rebuttal is of any substance to anyone, not realizing that it's just for entertainment, and ironically becoming just as annoying as the so-called power-scalers.
@@jokerinojiovanna Powerscaling is poorly disguised fanfic. Stan Lee's quote still applies because-get this- YOU ARE STILL THE AUTHORS OF A FICTIONAL SCENARIO. You got nowhere. Lmao.
@@Nyehhhhhh ppl don’t hate power scaling bc their favorite "character" isn’t the strongest, they hate it because it doesn’t logically make sense(sometimes) and unexplained power ups
There are too many people that think character A is overall better because he is stronger than character B and that is probably why powerscaling is viewed as something cringe. I personally just like hearing a bunch of dudes bring those characters to life with physics
What is cringe are people associating coolness and power. When Gear 5 1st came out, people were saying luffy now solos fiction via..... toon force? Them grasping straws to wank luffy aside, there's this very basic idea that losing is uncool, and would devalue their favourite charcters who's coolness relies on their power. Very basically, someone like madara, gear 5, etc getting neg diffed by yamcha would make madara and gear 5 worse losers and jokes than yamcha(yes ik gear 5 is a form not a character). But really, if someone thinks losing or getting defeated is uncool or devalues who they are….. their probably toxic and petty showoffs irl And then there are simply those who deny power scailing because they can't comprehend the idea that characters get stronger, so previously established scailing is now different. And whenever scailing changes, the thing they say is "oh, the fans care more than the writers, writers don't care that much about what they write" which might be true for some, but not all. “what? Piccolo is on par with super Saiyan after 3 years of training? Plot, toryama nerfed the super saiyans. Toryama himself doesn’t know what he’s talking about, probably forgot his own story. Goku getting over 10x stronger in a week when flying to namek and another over 30x after getting a zenkai to fight frieza tho? Makes complete and perfect sense. I wish dragon ball’s power scailing made as much sense as it did back in the day, dragon ball really fell off” The whole "Who ever wins is who ever the writer wants to win" makes absolutely no sense as a debunk to power scailing either, while technically not false, it's just bad story writing advice
Same, dude. Saying this as a powercsaler here, I'm honestly doing it for the most shallow of reasons. Example: Me: "Wow. That character has cool powers and looks cool. Me wanna know how strong he is. Oh look. Another cool character with cool powers. I wanna know who beats who." That's literally just it. I'm the type of fan whose biggest focus on a character is their powers and looks. I also look at their personalities and backstories and motivations etc., but I mainly like characters for how cool they look, and how cool their powers are. Thats why I like stuff like JoJo, Chainsaw Man and Overlord. Their powers are cool-looking, complex and interesting to observe, and they look so stylish and badass while using them. And naturally, being so focused on powers and coolness, I tend to look at other characters from other media to see who would win, because their different powers have a cool way to clash and interact, and I find that fun. I said FUN. (Also I just like debates. What's with being part of a debate club and having played stuff like Ace Attorney, Danganronpa and Umineko.) At the end of the day, that's all there is to it. It's meant to be FUN. The biggest problem is the idiots who take it too seriously and snivel and whine when the outcome they want doesn't bear fruit. Those should just be knocked out Markiplier Punch style. Same for those who go out of their way to attack powescalers that are genuinely nice just because they're *cringe.* Know your place, and if you're looking to attack powerscalers, attack the toxic ones. Keep away from the good and nice ones.
Great video making arguments even a casual like me can get behind, I'm glad that you addressed the toxic side of the powerscaling community as well. I did not kill a man in downtown Mississippi, 2008.
Worse, it's more like "turn your brain off and don't think about it because I unironically find it boring to use my imagination for some reason and you should do it too!".
I just hate it cause of how dumb Some of the generally accepted stances are Multiverse kratos,arceus and kirby Like just insane lv of strenth that is literally never represented in the series proper
@@nagatouzumaki4047do people really accept arceus as that strong seriously I’m fine with Kirby since it’s kinda funny but yeah it is kinda dumb same with Kratos too I’ve never seen him actually do something like that
Bro it’s because people get tight about it and kinda feeds into the most unhealthy aspects of the discord debate bro culture. The act of being a super nerd and attempting to use as many known quantities as possible to plug into different equations as a way to try and haphazardly stretch the laws of physics to fiction is on its own fine. But it’s inherently quite silly and a lot of us me included take it way too seriously sometimes
@@m7mad182 Yunno what. I respect that (at least more so then the other guy that I refuse to acknowledge). If trolling makes you happy, keep on trolling.
think it's more so the people using it. a lot of modern terminology and "slang" nowadays are so overused that more often than not people don't know how to correctly use it. like "gaslight". everyone and their mother uses the word gaslight now to anything even remotely related to "brainwashing" or the like. had a guy that honestly said you can "gaslight an idea"...
0:41 "By no means am I trying to hate on the guy, he's just came to the same conclusions as many others before him. And I'm not going to throw him underneath the bus like my predecessors, Seth and Chuck did in the past when these same arguments came around." Instances in which he distinctly _does_ take on a somewhat hostile tone towards Bigs: 0:35 "However this anti-power scaling video is the same regurgitated arguments that I have been personally seeing over the past ten years." 8:33 "However, in Big N' Stuff's video, it clearly shows that he did not do his research, as right before his favoritism segment within the segment, he cherrypicks and is biased right before it." I do believe you when you say you're not trying to hate on Big's video, but I still think you could've done a better job conveying that because how you talk about him does sound kinda hostile a lot of the time.
Saying someone is incorrect is hostile to you? Because saying “your argument is just a regurgitated talking point”, isn’t at all aggressive or violent, it’s just dismissive due to it being, subjectively, a commonly spoken and insubstantial statement. If I said “I don’t think you know what you’re talking about,” and you felt that was being hostile, I think the reason people think powerscaling is toxic is because they think a firm disagreement without sugarcoating is some kind of form of toxicity. It’s not even being “oversensitive”, no one is oversensitive, it’s just being dishonest and cowardly. And that’s me being upfront, not hostile, I can call your argument cowardly without even feeling hostility towards you, because I am using that word to denote a refusal to stand up to opposition without resorting to deflection. How is him being hostile even relevant? 😂😂😂
For me Power scaling was always a cool thing to think and theorize bout witv friends to see what your fav charackters are able to do Then the internet made way too big of a thing with the whole its cringe things Why canz we just all have our fun with it and those that wanna do ot seriously shouldnt get called cringe or so. Cause into legit power scaling a ton of work goes into
you get called cringe because of how far you go. its a cool little thing to theorize about, but those same people that put a "ton of work" into it VERY often like to act as if there word is concrete.
like theres a reason seth and the toxic little group was the face of powerscaling for a while simply because im not going to say majority but a large portion goes about powerscaling in the toxic fashion. That or they just say the dumbest takes like goku or opm beats everyone. Its a bunch of Airheads and self proclaimed know it alls just giving takes.
@@gelatogremlini don't think i've ever seen a powerscaling video that took more than 30 minutes of research to make tbh , most of the time is into editing . and most powerscaling calculations are incredibly simple calculations , i don't think i've ever seen a calc with above a 6th grade level maths
@@SkeetWeet4368 lets be real finds calcs statements and more for an anime thats concrete definitely takes more then 30 minsthe pixel counting and scaling etc. plus the powerscaling community doesnt just exist on youtube dont get me started on other sites like the communities in insta/X or the fourms like VS battle wiki, comic vine
Powerscaling is literally just 90% reading comprehension and I cringe whenever people use that stan lee quote because they grossly misrepresent what he was trying to say and also its an appeal to authority
"Reading comprehension" Taking flowery flavor statements literally and extrapolating abilities from that break or render a fictional setting nonsensical, and/or taking calculations derived in our own reality and assuming they accurately in map onto and reflect depictions in/of fictional(And often inconsistantly made)worlds(And also coming to nonsensical answers). Though to be charitable, a fair portion of power scaling is reasonable and backed firmly by their settings. It may just be the ones I've interacted with are the cream of the crop of loons. Also, regardless if Stan Lee, some authority or some random other individual off the street said it, the quote is accurate. At the end of the day, fiction and it's battles are at the whims of the authors writing them. Calcs and feats be damned.
The fact he wasn't even referring to powerscaling in the first place proves they don't actually know what they're talking about. He was referring to his own comics, and never once mentioned feats or scaling or anything you'd hear in a powerscaling sense.
People meme "Batman with prep-time" so much because "prep-time" is not meant to be taken at face value. "Prep-time" doesn't mean Batman is invincible, it means he picks his fights carefully, it means he never faces an opponent half-cocked, and while he can improvise he never wins all fights.
Powerscaling is fine, but we can’t deny that there is a side to it that is very cringe. Like it delves way to deep for it just being fun anymore. Like some of these powerscalers treat it like there conclusions are absolute and attack those who disagree. That part of the power scaling community is 100% cringe. If you just do it for fun, then yeah it’s fine
if u start breaking out your calculator and trying to apply real world physics so much to explain how strong a character is you already lost me, i already know where that convo is headed
@@zachspool exactly. idk why these guys forget that these fictional characters can "deflect bullets with their sword" just cuz it looks cool and not necessarily mean that they can react at the speed of a bullet so that should mean that that character can consistently react at that speed
@@xaevius5319I mean if they can do that consistently then they kinda can?? I’m not trying to start an argument or something just putting this out there.
@@Hehehe-wu9wmthey "can" but that "power" of theirs can get nerfed at a drop of a hat and even for for just a couple of seconds because the fight still needs to have tension. like jotaro with his stand, he can punch a bunch of knives thrown at him at "light speed" (the punches) and yet he still gets hit by a knife or two here and there. is that bad writing or is that just the author showing that the character can still get damaged? can he really punch and react at light speed or is the punch rush just a good comical way to show "he can punch fast it looks like there are multiple fists coming at me"? he's fast with his punches but he can still get hit. and yet these nerds don't think for a second that this is just a story, it's fiction and the author ain't a scientist, that the rules of the world will usually warp around the narrative and not the other way around (when it comes to stuff like this). i mean it's fun for me if star platinum "punches at light speed" if it's like a game theory video like "oh, if star platinum was in the real world this would be the measurement of the speed of his punches", but when that's a bullet in your argument for powerscaling? hell nah.
This Video is great, I love how its structured and I think it would be great if you could turn it into a series of videos in that you adress some missunderstandings or beiests happening in the community. Sorry if I made some misspellings, im not a native english speaker.
@@METAsMETAsthis defense towards power scalars is really annoying stop Powers scaling is trash your life is more important than just that why can't you idiots understand that there's something wrong with your brain better if you can't understand that your life is more important than just some stupid math science try learning that on your school reports or something
Mfs be saying Powerscaling is cringe when they can’t even solve basic Algebra equations in highschool. Can’t even do geometry right smh 🤦♂️ Can’t be all bark and no bite. Yapping without any proof you smarter than these mfs that try to calculate how Goku can physically destroy an 8th dimensional realm outside the multiverse.
I just don't like when they start coming at you with their calculations of how fast a person is or how durable they are, dude i want to have a chill debate no need to calculate manga panels that don't even fucking move
The problem is the fact that powerscaling itself makes no sense. For example, in one death battle video they explain how Jolyne punching a meteor makes her be able to punch with the force of a small nuke, which makes absolutely no sense. Or how people say that Zoro is lightspeed bc he dodged Kuma's attack even though he got bodied by Kizaru's kicks. Also powerscalers constantly throw out dumb terms like FTL or MFTL without realizing how out of place they are.
I think powerscaling can be quite the useful tool in assessing the quality of stories. I wouldn't consider it the biggest part of critique, not even close, and you definitely don't need to go as hard into as say you guys do to get the required result, but I think powerscaling is very useful in seeing if a story's characters are consistent (power-wise/skill-wise) throughout. A big flaw many stories could have (especially stories with combat) is that of inconsistent power levels and character skills, but those flaws might get lost in the style and substance of the story, so I'd say powerscaling can be very useful for analyzing the action aspects of a story aside from just set-up, choreography, story significance and whatever else. For example, I've seen a handful of people critique Captain America Civil War for how Iron Man could get beaten by Cap and Bucky in their 2v1, that's powerscaling right there, I've also seen counters to those critiques, that's also powerscaling. Powerscaling helps in discourse, and I really like that.
What? In what world assigning outside of the story stat blocks and tiering to characters could help you measure the quality of that story? Authors staying consistent to their own rules isn't powerscaling, pointlessly trying to scientifically analyze how exactly strong characters X is and give a conclusive answer whether they can beat character Y. In your example of Civil War there's absolutely nothing for powerscaling to help with, rather it highlights one of it's bigger flaws - each character has it's own fanbase that wants specifically their character to succeed. There's nothing to suggest Cap and Bucky can't win against Iron Man, people were just upset more popular character (by far) lost.
@@kindlingking by definition powerscaling would be judging a story's examples of what a character could do, sure it isn't as technical as what powerscaling would be know as, but it's the same thing. Why are you separating two things that are conceptually the same? The difference is that powerscaling branched off to be its own form of speculative entertainment for fans, where regular assessment of the character's abilities stayed in narrative critique and is only brought up when needed to. Going back to Civil War, that is powerscaling, because you are using evidence presented by the story and previous stories to see if Cap and Bucky could beat Iron-Man, and yeah, Cap and Bucky could beat Irom-Man. Also, who's to say a closer more numerical look at a character's abilities couldn't help in analysis? Certain details may be lost in the bigger picture, sure you may not use the same terminology as powerscalers, but once again, you're just doing the same thing for a different context.
The problem is that literally nobody writtes stories with powerscaling in mind. So judging the quality of stories based on powerscaling is flawed because authors care more about storytelling and plot progression than powerscaling.
@@joaquincortescasas8114 the point is not that it can judge the quality, what I'm trying to say is that a properly thought out power scaler-esque mindset can help you asses parts of a story. Key word there being part. It's basic consistency, similarly to how you'd judge the quality of character writing by seeing how consistent it is, you can judge a fight scene between two characters with the facts given to you. I definitely worded the OG comment wrong, but hopefully this clarifies my point.
@@uryenatienza4093 The problem is that powerscaling applies real world math and science to scale feats in fiction, which leads to innacurate interpretations of the capabilities of a characters. There aren't many writters that apply real world science while writting their stories because, guess what, properly comprehending specific branches of science used in a specific story takes YEARS of your life. Some people dedicate their entire lives to have a proper understanding of only ONE branch of science. Literally 0.01% of powerscalers fully comprehend what they are talking about. The ammount of time and effort one would need to write a story that takes powerscaling into considerstion by applying real world science makes it not worth it focusing on it, when the large majority of readers prefer reading a good/interesting story, not an accurate one. Hence, powerscaling doesn't work when you try to apply real world science to a story that wasn't made with real world science in mind.
Same lol If they use powerscaling to just show powerlevels only and not for fights that wont go as expected then i wont think its cringe But they really wanna compare two characters,morons
@@Imjustaguy69420 so they are the morons while you complaining about someone hobby or doing what they love. You just don't want to listen and think your intelligent
My big brother is probably one of the biggest Goku meat riders I've ever seen. I'll ask him for proof and reasoning for Goku's strength and he gives the most vague manga panels that explains nothing. Goku is not the strongest anime character and he doesn't understand that. I'm getting him a Goku body pillow for Christmas.
I find it funny that those community are probably if not the most toxic communities in the entire world in my opinion so comparing power scaling to either of those two is ehh not a good way to say power scaling isnt toxic
@@opadrip I didn't say toxic, I said cringe. If you don't think gatekeeping beginners or complaining about basic gameplay features of the genre that makes your community isn't cringe then idk what to tell you
Personally, I think the reason powerscaling is even a thing's because people wanted to find a way to use the math they learned in high school that they never used again.
As a up and coming writer while power scaling in neber my full focus it is important. For certain arks ill write down how strong each character is compared to eachother its pretty easy to keep it mostly consitent with enough planing so a wroter doest have to go out there way to do it but it is important. And also power scaling in fun i love to think sbout hypetheticals between my characters vs characters in and out of my story. Peopel should just chill out and have fun.
I love this video so much. I think you did an amazing job at approaching a broad (maybe controversial?) topic in such a civil way. Then again, most of your videos are usually formatted in the sense of sticking to the facts and not being biased, so I knew this video was going to be a banger to begin with. I just wish there were more videos (on youtube in general) that cover one side of a coin without becoming extremely opinionated, or just straight up a slander match, and I think this video is a pretty golden example at being able to do that. Keep up the great work!
Power scaling is honestly fine in concept. It’s just power scalers try to do everything in their power to justify their favorite character winning. It’s annoying and kind of ruins what would normally be a pretty fun conversation.
Not everybody likes powerscaling... Maybe for you, it's just for fun, but a lot people take it very seriously a lot of times. People can get very salty and ignorant when they realise the character they liked isn't actually at a certain level of power like they may have thought. 6:24 This part where you talked about how people got mad over Krillin doing well against Super Saiyan Blue Goku because it didn't make sense and that if the author writes something like that happening without a good explanation, that that makes them a bad author, i know a lot of people who would disagree with you on that and actually try to defend that scenes and try to make sense out of it even though there is no concrete, sensable explanation for it, you see? So, some people will start to be in denial and try to bullshit like that and they are part of the reason some people find the powerscaling community cringe.
Can't really blame people for thinking that way when guys like seth & chuck were making it pretty toxic and unfun over the few couple years. Not to mention Seth was a pretty rude guy
@@ballslover-es9gwSeth was like the first big power scaling RUclipsr who turned out to be kinda of a creep. Chuck is kinda of a chill dude but can get kinda of toxic at times
exactly ecepically when they were the face of powerscaling for a while. All these things about powerscaling are great but its just when they take it to far, which is common with powerscalers.
The only big problem I have with power scaling is when fanbases overhype how powerful their character is. For the last time, BEN 10 DOESN'T SOLO FICTION!
9:29 a little bit of a highball? I think I remember Jolyne not being able to bend the bars of the prison, so obviously she doesn't have the power to destroy the ENTIRE PRISON WITH A PUNCH. Power scaling is usually cool, but I hate when it's so inconsistent. Like when I want to see a fight between characters that shouldn't be god level and suddenly these characters have absolutely ridiculous power levels, or even worse, "light speed" or "FASTER than light speed" (whatever that even means)
While I never turned away from power scaling for the sake of writing, I haven't been able to really enjoy the community around it. The few times I tried getting involved in discussions, I found it hard to find people that wanted to TALK about it. Everything had to be a debate or argument, and it felt way too combative. With how aggressive people were, it made it feel like nothing could be discussed in good faith. It sucks, because I genuinely enjoy the topic. I've said it before, but the animosity towards powerscaling has had a really negative impact on authors. Powerscaling SHOULD just be a very basic aspect of writing where needed, but with all the bad blood being thrown at authors, it's leading to cases where the subject is actively avoided.
Honestly, you're kind of spitting. Like I could make a comment disagreeing with the common narrative that is spread around and some kid will start acting condescending while spamming laughing emojis and you just know these guys don't watch the source material and probably get their opinions from power scalers or reviewers. It's fine to disagree with me, but some of these guys think they're the smartest people ever and anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. As someone with rare opinions like Luffy beats Naruto, Base Goku isn't God level and therefore doesn't stack SSG on top of SSG, or One Piece characters have planetary ap, my opinions will always be ridiculed without anyone giving me a real argument. Not really here to backup any of these claims since I'm tired of debating them because no one wants to have an honest discussion, they want to humiliate the opposition and make themselves feel superior and smarter than everyone else.
I think Powerscaling is fine, it the people who are literally always commenting about how this “character wins” or “this character can’t even beat this character” or the most famous of all “Goku Solo”
Meta hit the nail on the head with this one. Powercaling itself isn't cringe. It's typically the (toxic)person doing it, making it that way. Like if my only interaction with powerscaling was rabid individuals going at each other throats over fictional characters' stats. I'm not going to lie I'd think it's cringe to. However, I know that's an outlier and most people are a lot more down to earth and civil. Also, nice shout out to Chuck. His videos and personality in them has really evolved. Hopping Seth can pull a similar redemption but will wait and see
I also saw that video you've mentioned, and it got stuck in my head for some time. So it's good to see this video responding to that video, and hopefully I got a more well rounded viewpoint regarding this topic. TY
Like many have said already, it isn’t Power-scaling what is bad/wrong/cringe/other-buzzword, but rather the power-scalers themselves, since many of them tend to be incredibly arrogant and act like know-it-all assholes. Then you have the power scaling communities and their debates that rather than find common ground and work together to craft a theory in the name of making some sense, they instead are more interested in winning the argument and piss on the other scalers like some sort of dick measuring contest. Finally there’s the most important thing: It doesn’t matter when debating fictional universes against each others, since it boils down to who is writing the story and how they can simply make the mechanics of one’s universe work on the favor of their protagonist against others. An old European magazine had an interview from Akira Toriyama saying that Superman was weaker than Krillin’s pinky finger, for example.
Specifically about the part of "the winner is whoever the author wants to win" as a way to say powerscaling doesn't make sense, is actually why powerscaling makes sense. If both sides can claim a win then what's the point? There's no debate to be had. The reason we use feats as arguments is so that we have something to talk about and reason with, not something intangible like author's intent. Basic communication theory states that communication (such as debate) can only happen when both parties agree on certain things as basis, for example having a shared language and common definitions of things. Feats are the language in which powerscaling happens, without it there's no communication to be had.
Powerscaling is poorly disguised fanfic. Stan Lee's quote still applies because-get this- YOU ARE STILL THE AUTHORS OF A FICTIONAL SCENARIO. You got nowhere. Lmao.
@@largerthanastarThe same “authors” that use feats and statements to prove that character A is stronger then character B? Your point lead you nowhere, also btw most vs debates have no narrative.
Power scaling is just a contest about who has the biggest feats, since any author of either opposing character being power-scaled against each other can comment about their own work however they want. For all we know Toriyama could’ve always said “Earth in Dragon Ball is different from DC’s or Marvel’s and even their average humans are naturally immune to Superman’s Solarly charged might/Infinity Stone energy/Spawn’s hellish artifacts/whatever other thing lol”.
I agree. I have enjoyed powerscaling for over 15 years, and comparing in-verse characters is fun. However, I dislike cross-series VS debates and find them tedious like comparing apples to oranges. But I understand the appeal.
Video games, are different It's not a online community with madeup standards. Its just people playing a game. There's nothing fallacious or dishonest about it unlike power scaling
These people clearly don't understand what powerscaling is and they don't want to learn that's why they've been using the same argument for years. To them it'll always be cringe no matter how much you explain it to them. Be it because they had bad experiences with powerscalers before or the fact that they don't like the fact that some worlds are weaker than others and for some reason they think that an verse being less crazy in terms of power is something bad about their favorite series or something. Despite it not mattering in the end as long the story is good. I've seen a lot of people get mad at powerscaling shitposting, the whole 'can them defeat goku tho' is clearly a joke that people get offended for no reason.
why would anyone want to learn how to calculate pixels or w/e so you guys can apply real world physics to it? not only that but for the purpose of making arguments that your character can beat another dude's favorite character. people can talk about "batman vs superman" all they want, talk about their strengths and weaknesses and discuss the strategies they might use if they'd face one another, no one would complain, the fact that you guys have got this down TO A SCIENCE is what's fucking cringe since clearly the authors didn't create these characters with that in mind. they go off based on feel, not by numbers. these guys aren't scientists and yet you guys still continue to use real world science based arguments. why? because you want your favorite character to win. just for that lame ass goal.
@@xaevius5319 Because it's fun? Just because you don't like something it doesn't mean everyone should stop doing it. Although there are a lot of people that can get toxic with it. Also powerscaling exists in stories, shows that ignore powerscaling get called out for having nonsensical asspulls in order to defeat the villains, yeah it's the writer who decides who gonna win but it's also their job to make it believable inside the fictional world they're writing. It's not as in depth as the powerscalling community does but it's still there, They could ignore it completely yeah but that would break the reader's immersion and it would qualify as bad writing.
@@riel7387 "Also powerscaling exists in stories, shows that ignore powerscaling get called out for having nonsensical asspulls in order to defeat the villains, yeah it's the writer who decides who gonna win but it's also their job to make it believable inside the fictional world they're writing." yea sure, but usually that just gets chalked up to "writing", "character consistency", "plot armor", a whole lot of other things not "powerscaling" specifically. I write, i wouldn't consider myself doing "powerscaling". I didn't even know that what powerscaling is, is using real world science and numbers for what? saying your fictional character beats up another fictional character. most of the time these "arguments" boil down to, oh this character has this one insane move and/or is faster than your character, so he would automatically get blitzed. what would a writer find useful in that? you just made a shit fight. that's not entertaining at all. if everything went by how powerscalers do characters then a batman comic featuring the joker would just be 2 pages long. they'll chalk it up to "a master of a billion martial arts vs a guy who had a bad day". trust me, no writer needs to "know powerscaling" in order to be a better writer. he just needs to not be a shit one and be mindful of how strong he makes his characters. heck i'd say even just the advice of "plan your whole story out" would be great since most of the shit writing and "powerscaling" comes from higher ups wanting more comics/manga and/or the author didn't plan it so he has to make shit up. so no we do not "not understand powerscaling". we know. cuz we're all "powerscalers" only difference is, the ones who don't claim to be one are the ones who don't take it too far and turn it toxic. we don't resort to using calculators and measuring sticks just to discuss "batman v superman". we also understand that most of the time a character from one universe doesn't translate well when u try to fight another character in another universe. there's a reason why stan lee made that infamous video.
@@xaevius5319brother,it is just that, power scaling is fun, the fun part is searching about the evidence and the best feats , not the ending part when we com to a conclusion on who won, +just because power scaling seems to not make sense to you on why using numbers and all that to decide who wins in a fictional fight doesn’t mean you have to shit on the subject, like bro you sound like the people who say “who can you have fun by reading a book? Its is just some nonsensical story that have people in an impossible situation to happen in real life !!” Some people finds fun in sports, or reading, or watching or playing video games , and some people like to use math on something werid like fiction, just because it sounds werid doesn’t mean it is bad, the bad part is the people who forgets that power scaling is for fun, but really that can be applied on aloooooot of other things ,.(sorry for my bad English)
@@bill.ciphersans3812 "the fun part is searching about the evidence and the best feats , not the ending part when we com to a conclusion on who won" well why don't u tell that to the many other powerscalers out there who seem to think and/or make up bullshit just so their favorite character can win? just cuz you say that's the fun part, that's the fun part for YOU. I don't think you need me to tell you that people can have different goals or motivations when it comes to the same thing. "just because power scaling seems to not make sense to you on why using numbers and all that to decide who wins in a fictional fight" ???? when did I show that I didn't understand? i understand EXACTLY what you guys do. if you're talking about the first part of my first reply, that is a rhetorical question simply implying why would you do ALL this, just to end up with (what I consider) a pretty trivial and meaningless thing that more often than not just turns fucking toxic. i get why you bring out your measuring sticks, that isn't lost on me. what's lost on me is how people devolve the end game, the actual conclusion part itself wherein most of the time people are just disingenuous with their arguments and it's a matter of ego wherein one guy just doesn't want to hear another fictional character can beat up his fictional character. at best the frequent end result if it doesn't turn toxic is then just it's a boring "one guy has a one finish move, if he gets him with this turn one, he wins", neither of those do I like or find entertaining at all. I watch game theory, matpat breaks out his measuring sticks every now and again, we count pixels every now and again, and yeah i do like those cuz it leads to interesting theories or implications. why the fuck would I find people trying to apply real world physics to a show like jojo, say jolyne's stand, cuz of the meteor fight, that she's x amount strong "why doesn't she just bend the bars of the prison" feel productive or entertaining when the most obvious answer is the author is not a freaking scientist that is taking into account these real world physics as well as that's not the intention of the writer on how strong the character is because it's obvious she's not SUPPOSED to be that strong. if at the end of the day it's just "if we were to apply real world physics here, x character is actually ridiculously strong" then i'd have no problem. people turn it into their personal headcanon tho and fucking start wars over it. "he bad part is the people who forgets that power scaling is for fun, but really that can be applied on aloooooot of other things " yeah, but like I say in other comments. a community can most definitely turn toxic. there can be rotten apples in a barrel full of good ones, but it's a different story when a community is KNOWN for their toxicity. and from my personal experience I can most definitely say that most of the powerscaling community is toxic. plus like I said, all of us are powerscalers, not every single one of us identifies as one or even knows the term 'powerscaling'. and the people who usually takes things too far are those who do indentify themselves as one.
Powerscaling is fun and sometimes addicting I'm literally over here, scaling stuff from ads and cartoons that my sister watches (I literally got a 6D scale for a deodorant called Rexona lol)
@@oliver_editzz61 you cant use real world science in fictional stories bc it doesnt work that way. For example, if dragon ball characters were actually light speed then they would literally crush the universe.
The only problem I have with anti-powerscalers or people who have the opinion that powerscaling is cringe is that they always bring up the "the winner is whoever the writer decided to win" argument which is a stupid argument. I'd rather have someone simply saying that they don't like powerscaling because it's cringe because that at least boils down to one's own personal opinion. The very reason powerscaling exist is to scale how strong a character is when fighting another character. And not just in crossover battles, but in the character's own verse. I mean now imagine a Marvel comic where TOBA for some reason started to destroy the multiverse and then suddenly base form Spiderman with no amp, no enhancement and no power up whatsoever defeated TOBA just because the writers wanted to. See how the "the winner is whoever the writer decided to win" argument is stupid? Because narrative wise it's also stupid. There's a reason why Training Arcs are so popular in battle manga or characters in basically every fiction that relates to battles requires some form of power up or method to make them stronger. It's so that they can be at the same level or surpass the level of their enemy. That in itself is a small application of powerscaling and yet most people, specifically the active anti-powerscalers, tries to ignore powerscaling for some reason. There needs to be a *reason* for a character to beat another character. Writing wise writers can't just write a character beating another character without any reason or explicit explanation on how and why said character wins. I'm just rambling but as METAs said, powerscalers (at least in the community) do what they do because it's just fun. So let us be lol. If you criticize the powerscaling community to be cringe or toxic, that can be said to any community.
@@LunarFTW and how the hell are people going to enjoy playing that game if the eventual toxic extreme of it is what most people play the game for? are we really gonna act like we don't know what sort of people the game of "powerscaling" attracts?
@@xaevius5319 I "play the game", and I do it cuz it's fun to me. I try to play fair and understand the other side of the argument and see if it holds up and keeps the work consistent. I don't go out of my way to bother other people about it. The toxic side is none of my business nor my problem, aside from the fact that they end up creating people with your attitude towards it (and I don't mean this as an insult) due to their bad reputation, thus "poisoning the well". Yes, every community has a toxic side, I do not deny that at all. I always say this, the "can he beat Goku tho" meme exists for a reason, because people like that *do* exist. That toxic side usually speaks louder than anyone else who is chill about it. It doesn't mean the entire thing is like that, nor that it is entirely bad. How to enjoy a game with "toxic players"? Idk, avoid them? Cuz they aren't everyone. But shaming someone for a hobby that isn't inherently harmful and calling it dumb sure doesn't help in my eyes.
@@LunarFTW nobody from "my side" "shames" anyone who isn't toxic from the powerscaling community. you guys aren't the ones being talked about. if anything, we understand cuz even casuals engage in 'powerscaling' without having even known the term powerscaling before. the casual 'batman vs superman' talks, or the 'goku vs whoever'. but see that's where i kinda draw the line. I didn't even know powerscaling entailed using calculators and measuring sticks and applying REAL WORLD science and numbers to a fictional universe, all for what? for ammo to say a fictional dude is better than your fictional dude? hell no. the fact that the "community" has even broken it down to a SCIENCE already tells me everything i need to know. plus the fact that many of the powerscaling community seems to forget that narrative takes precedence over consistency in powerscaling is the reason why stan lee made that freaking video. "Yes, every community has a toxic side, I do not deny that at all. " yeah, but that's not really a defense. by that logic i shouldn't hate anything or hate everything because that can be applied to anything. face it bro your community is known for being toxic af with people hijacking conversations that don't even have to do with powerscaling being taken over. just cuz a community "can" have a toxic side, doesn't mean every community is KNOWN for it's toxic side. just like i said in my previous reply, the very idea of powerscaling attracts the type of people people despise in the community and they will almost always lead it to it's eventual toxic extreme. the fact that you're even trying to defend it, while also acting like "the toxic people" ain't your problem, even though they're the ones that make you guys look bad, just kinda screams to me as like a lack of self awareness and you want US to not condemn the practice of powerscaling as a whole because what? of the 10% you that aren't toxic? I've seen other people here that also consider themselves as 'powerscalers' but can admit and condemn the powerscaling community as a whole because they themselves KNOW how cancer it can get. like a guy said: "I will never support a 'term' that goes out of it's way to be insufferable". I can discuss 'batman v superman' without having all these terms like 'feats', 'fast as light', 'multiversal' and all this shit. Honestly, if start discussing a character's 'power level' and another guy wanna try and engage with me coming at me with all that bs im checking out bro. I can "powerscale" without ever calling it 'powerscaling' because that's what i've done since before, and many others have done also before. we don't need numbers or measuring sticks, nah we just watch the show. that's it. that's why I can say "f*ck powerscaling" because while it is similar to what i've always done, it's different.
part of the reason i think people say powerscaling is cringe is the fact that they'll see, for example, a youtuber talk about goku's fight with beerus when goku first acquires ssjg. they hear the powerscaler scale goku to low multiversal because of that fight and think "wtf?!? goku isn't that strong? that makes no sense." basically a character gets scaled to absurd heights that doesn't seem feasible nor possible and people just don't even think twice about it. despite the fact it's literally said that he can do said feat, people just choose not to believe it for some reason.
It's the boundless solos your verse zero diff Type of stuff that makes power scalers cringe not any huge difference from the narrative as compared to the fans but that certainly helps
3:34 This statistic is pretty inflated, if I might say so. It doesn't take into account singular people that watch multiple videos in the series, which I'm willing to wager make up the vast majority of that total view count.
You know, came into this pretty leery but I think you made your arguments extremely well. I've dabbled in power scaling less for VS debates and more to get a sense for how strong certain characters were and enjoyed that. Still, the more toxic side of debates is a huge thing that often drove me away from liking it. The other thing, which you did correctly call out here, but that I also think remains a bit iffy is the Jojo example. You correctly address that the author does in fact think about these things, which is neat to know, but I am unsure if that or the statement regarding her ability to punch meteors entirely holds up given the example Bigs supplied regarding her struggling to beat regular people with punches. This feels a bit like a glaring omission and is part of a wider strain of such things that pops up in a lot of shows. See for example, the fact Piccolo can blow up a moon with minimal effort at less than 500 Ki, but then struggles with a metal door when over 100 million. DBZ is kind of the ur example for inconsistent nonsensical power, but I do think its a problem in a lot of shows and makes stuff like this harder.
It's not cringe in and of itself, but taking powerscaling so seriously to the point that you breed toxicity in the fanbase is definitely cringe. The worst culprits are the people who compare two characters from different fictional settings who have nothing in common with each other except that both characters are powerful but one is blatantly more so, and the people who resort to personal attacks and call you "retarded" because you don't agree with them. Even if they're right and you're wrong, it doesn't make that kind of environment any less toxic seeing someone resort to insults over a trivial fictional character dick-measuring contest. "The writer determines who wins" isn't a valid argument in powerscaling, but it for sure is a good reason to not take powerscaling seriously. This concept applies to a lot of things. There is nothing wrong with words commonly labelled as derogatory slurs, it's the asshole who's using them to insult you that is the problem.
The Super Saiyan Blue Goku versus Krillain battle can be explained based off of Gokus extreme Ki Control. He was holding back significantly trying to not hurt his friend. At the end he got too exited and nearly ended the life of Krillain by using too much Ki for him to handle.
I love it because its fun. The issue is that factually wrong arguments are the norm. Ex: using calcs for being faster than light by dodging a laser, or misusing newtons 3rd law by transative property. (Kaguya can create dimensions, therfore she must have dimensional ap)which isnt the case nor does that make sense. Using hyperbolic statements as facts when they clearly are disproven by in story feats. Its fun in the same verse but because each verse has different laws of physics, its almost ridiculous to use our real world understanding of those physics. Characters who move faster than light wouldnt be able to see anything. Characters who are stated to move at light speed would be diluting time around them and creating enough energy to explode planets just by being that fast with the large mass they have. Tl/dr : its fun but misusing math and science to represent your charcter is annoying
Powerscaling in life : Man vs Crocodile = man is weak unless he has a certain weapon capable of oneshoting it. Nerd vs chad : nerd is weak but powerful unless he calls the authority or learns to gain muscles capable of overwhelming chad the right way
Meta, you do a good job of keeping it for fun and entertainment. I think power scaling 100% has a place in media, especially if an author wants to make an older character relevant. Let's use a very recent example, the Spot from Marvel. The Spot was treated as a throw away villain of the week for a long time. However, his abilities have a ton of room for potential growth. Fans who power scale his potential give a framework to the author and vice versa of what the character can do. Thus allows the author and fans to give feedback without directly interacting. The spot's potential for growth lead to him going from a minor villain, to the main antagonist of argueably the biggest spiderman film ever. What I'm saying, is that power scaling gives a """"realistic"""" framework for how much growth characters can go through, and allow shonen stories to grow in a way that people believe more consistently.
lol nobody needs "powerscaling" that specific term in order for their stories to be better, you know what does? being a better writer? being consistent with your story and characters? great authors have done this shit without having to go to their calculators and imaginary measuring sticks
@@opadrip "And what makes being a better writer?" "show don't tell", "chekov's gun", vocabulary and learning how to write sentences, exploring themes and characters, knowing how to draw out tension, subtext, character design, "setup and payoff", dialogue, world building, "write what you know". a billion things that you could use to make yourself a better writer, not one of them starts with "p" and ends in "g". the entire reason you guys even went to rulers, calculators and shit like that is so you guys can use them as ammo to ARGUE that your favorite character beats the guy you're arguing's favorite character. no author or writer needs to have a phd in physics for them to be able to write a good character/story, cuz it's almost like you guys forget that in a battle vs narrative and consistency with "powerscaling", narrative will always take precedence and the characters will adjust accordingly, which is what the ultimate message of stan lee's quote was.
@@xaevius5319 okay, but you atleast need a rough scale of how character's relate to each other in terms of power. Yes, I get that its "whoever the writer wants to win", but that's a throwaway argument when you realize that a good story has consistency in terms of power. Spider-Man just beating Galactus with no explanation will always be rejected because it doesn't matter if "narrative takes precedence", you need that kind of consistency in terms of power level to not break the immersion, same as with a character's personality or how they react.
@@ProjektTaku and all of those things can be done without needing to be a "powerscaler". even someone who doesn't participate in either powerscaling nor writing stories knows spider man can't win vs galactus straight up. "but that's a throwaway argument when you realize that a good story has consistency in terms of power." yeah but most people don't argue characters in the same story/universe, they argue OUTSIDE of it. luffy vs naruto, goku vs anyone else in fiction, dr doom vs whoever. consistency gets consistently thrown out the window because people love to battle two characters that don't even operate with the same rules or laws for their universe/power. add to that when people argue someone like goku vs someone else in another universe that's quite strong but is obviously not as strong as goku but that's not the fucking point of his story. it's just an argument in bad taste because you know he doesn't stand a chance, that's not the purpose of his character or his story, but people still go for it cuz powerscalers only give a shit about "who's stronger" and will almost always talk shit about that other character being weak.
3:50 King Crimson being the most infamous. Most likely, if a writer wants someone to win, they'll write a way for them to win. A lot of the complaints on the other video aren't applicable to VS Battles Wiki, for example.
Okay, let's get it clear here, powerscaling itself isn't bad but people take it way too personality, don't understand that there is a large element of subjectivity to it, and just make up a bunch of tiers or rankings of power that make sense in their diluted minds but are actually nonsensical when you actually look at it. A lot of these higher tiers literally only exist for people can wank their favorite characters to. Everything in what's called "tier 1" is just a bunch of malarky. Hot take: "Outerversal", "hyperversal" or "complex multiversal" don't exist. Like yes, they have a definition but the words themselves are about as empty. It's just used by a bunch of people who think of themselves as physicists when they're not. "Irrelevant speed" is also innately self-contradictory and the way people define immeasurable speed with a non-sequitur. In what was does having the ability to run backwards or forwards in time mean that an infinitely fast character will look frozen? Scaling a character anything above multiversal is wank 90.00% of the time. Goku isn't "complex multiversal" or "outeversal" because the very concept of those things is needlessly complicated for a relatively simple subject, and because the requirements and definition of those tiers make literally zero sense. The same thing goes with Sailor Moon, or Sonic, Superman, Thor, or literally everyone else.
More people need to be less biased because I like Spider-Man but I am not making the argument he claps superman because I love him. Try to be more accepting of other views and try to listen to others. Definitely need more control and respect for each other
As someone studying philosophy as my college major, I look at Powerscaling as a rigorous exercise in understanding and comparing different metaphysical systems.
Every single conversation I've ever seen with powers scalers turns into people throwing personal attacks that IRL would get someone a mouth full of blood and tooth soup. It holds no predictive power over how writers write, and ignores the narrative purpose characters have in a story. If fans didn't get too emotionally invested, and didn't resort to insults, it would be fun, but that always happens. They also spill out into every conversation other people have online about the characters, and engage with the insults with people not interested in their vs argument, and highjack any discussion into a vs battle with scaling based arguments. It makes it hard to be involved in any fan community, as it drives people away, and from the outside looking in, appears to be filled with autistocrats that take being fans of fiction into a weird and hostile territory, for something that again, holds no power over writers and thus has no predictive power.
My problem with powerscaling boils down to 2 things: 1, in powerscaling i only care about seeing my favorite characters win agenst someone who vaguely seems op from another Frenchise and yet most of the characters i like are either unliked by the communityand thus never win anything noteworthy or are too obecure so that there are no debates about the characher at all 2, no one will will simply do matches i'd find interesting, the only vs debates the community semms to do are ones between characters in the same franchise or that arbitrarly similar to each other yet the kind of battles i want to see are ones where the charaters are pited agenst opponents whos powrsets are different enough that the fight ends up being more like a puzzle. Jiraya vs master roshi happens to be simply very boring to me i'd more want to see jiraya vs ash ketchum because i think seeing and figuring out how jirya's trickery and theatrics would interact with ash's creativity and environmental awareness would be super interesting
I agree with this video. I personally dont care for Power scaling, I preer to just like learning more. The only reason I find it cringe is how hard people are with favoritism and generally how toxic parts of the community can be and its sad to so but the toxic parts of a community tend to be the loudest parts
The two videos brought up by their thumbnails have a bunch of Strawman and Poisoning the Well arguments, just to tell all 14 people who haven’t seen them.
In what way did plague of gripes' video do any of those things? The entire point of that video was to breakdown how stupid the power scaling in the DRAGON BALL was, not that power scaling in general was bad. It was also more of a rant about Akira Toriyama's terrible writing.
While I agree with most of this there is something you missed. Series with no canon like SCP are have issues because there so many different versions they pull from that if is impossible to debate. The foundation can go from not being able to stop a lizard to controlling the Omniverse. Making very to scale and very hard to know which version the author is using. Second are fans of hard science fiction who just refuses to debate properly because science and math beat everything even if other has feats to match them.
Big N' Stuff's argument about the Jojo character breaking a meteor with a punch because ''the author thought it'd be cool'' but otherwise has normal human limits I don't watch Jojo, i didn't know he was wrong, but even if he was right, not seeing the problem is wild. Inconsistency is awful and bad writing.
That’s the thing. Meta doesn’t address this at all. Jolyne’s stand can punch meteors away which according to power scalers means it’s about as strong as a small nuclear bomb, but at the same time isn’t strong enough to break the bars of her prison cell?? Meta just says the calculations are correct but then forgets to mention she couldn’t even get out of her cell since her stand lacked the strength to do that
You're the only one with a response to these videos critical of power scaling that I've listened so far that is watchable. Good work there. Personally, is powerscaling cringe? Yes and no. I think powerscaling means different things to different people. As a writer, it's important to not have an infant with nothing special about them strangle the dark lord with their bare hands, I don't think anyone who is against power scaling is saying that writers don't care about that. But at the same time, I think it is pretty ridiculous to act as if writers actually breaks out the calculator and are aware of what their characters' feats imply on a physics level.
Personally, I think it’s frustrating when people act as if power scaling were an important part of storytelling when it’s really not. It can be fun to argue about which fictional characters are more powerful than other characters (all things being equal) but the idea that writers should do Death Battle style analyses is ridiculous
The problem for me is that nothing is close anymore, everything is Omni multiversal bs, like a character A can speed blitz with ultra light speed fart to destroy character B that is a omniversal reality warper douchebag... everything is so pointless now
Powerscaling can be fun...until people use calcs, if you are talking about a fiction and someone takes off his calculator, then leave because that just shows that the other person is a huge nerd that won't stop doing math until proving that he his right.
It’s just for fun mannnnn.
😌👍 nice
Literally this
the video boiled down to a single sentence
Do a video on the terminology. Shouldn't explaining what "city level" means be "low dif?" Am I using the terminology right?
as long as they aren't trying to rip each other open like a high school couple, i'm fine with it
I think favoritism is the biggest culprit, like how people hold characters so high standards and just say nonsense to not have their fictional characters ego's hurt.
Also, great video as always.
Crap like that is exactly why I like that this video draws a line between a 'verses debate' and 'power scaling'. The latter is much more logical.
@@jacobwansleeben verses de
The problem with powerscaling is that battle between characters people care about are almost never remotely close. The answer is almost always "yeah this character 1 touch speed blitzes your verse sorry". So it encourages people to make the most disingenuous highballs/lowballs too make it so their characters stand any chance
People just need to find more discussable matchups then lol, or just discuss specific versions of the characters that are closer in power. I'm pretty sure there's some weak-ass versions of The Flash for example.
I’ll never support a term that actively goes out of its way to be insufferable especially Gokutards(FGLK solos) and if you tell someone Goku loses they go crazy, and also just if you like a character they’ll tell you how they suck and lose to anybody
Hate to say it but they find anyway to do this regardless, got your examples here though this is nowhere near all examples. Marvel vs DC saying x character is cooler than the other and dog shitting on another, Anime vs western animation for what is better due to maturity, better animation, or better with topics, as well as anime vs anime with “this is more iconic” It’s a tad disingenuous saying it’s easy due to power scaling as we have managed to have problems of scaling in comparing stuff in an exasperated way.
Yeah I can't even recall the amount of time I've seen. My dude Jason higher speed and slightly more AP than your durability.
Speed blitz one shot GG ,get wrecked, all your arguments are invalid.
@@savage_Sloth90 Jason solos Goku simply put
I have a really good power scaling story.
So, I used to work in an after school program for an elementary school right? Two boys came up to me and asked "who would win in a fight, Goku or Superman?"
My first thought was 'Ok, there are too many factors.' So I said "they *wouldn't fight, because they're both peaceful and want to protect earth."
*We know Goku will not throw the first punch for a sparing match, so don't say he'd force it.
They then said "well what if they had to fight?" Now, as their supervisor, I couldn't sit there and commit to this, I had to keep an eye on everyone, so I went to plan B "Well, it depends on what version of each. We have base Goku, SSGoku, SSJSS Goku, Superman, Silver age Superman, Superman 1 million, ect. "
I expected them to relent and decide it wasn't worth asking, but they called my bluff and asked "Ok, normal Goku and Normal Superman."
I gave them my opinion, they listened, thought about it, and then one said "Ok, makes sense. I still think X would win though because Y."
Nobody got mad, nobody called the other a liar, they just respected one another's opinions and debated for the hell of it. Freaking 8 year olds man! Still proud of those boys to this day. They achieved a higher power level than adults 3 times their age.
Based kids.
Goes to show sometimes they can be more mature then the adults
@@nagatouzumaki4047 right?!
This is the most based Goku vs Superman argument ever.
You educate such fine future gentlemen
In any VS debate where Goku and another OP dude is involved, Saying "They wouldn't fight" shows that people really have no idea how Monke Goku is.
At the end of the day, Powerscaling is just one the many fun ways fans can engage with a series and other fans. It’s really no different from the speed running and Cosplay communities
Can it get toxic? Sure, but that can be said about everything ever
Facts👏👏👏👏🗿
My man is spittin' facts here 🥶🗿🔥
I’ll never support a term that actively goes out of its way to be insufferable especially Gokutards(FGLK solos) and if you tell someone Goku loses they go crazy, and also just if you like a character they’ll tell you how they suck and lose to anybody
@@people2chronically-online well you're in luck because terms can't go out of their way to do anything, they aren't alive. You had a bad anecdotal experience, doesn't mean everyone's like that
@@rjsblanket3024 cry me a river
The powerscaling problem isnt the actual powerscaling. Its the fact that some man children get genuinely pissed when you disagree with them.
Hey man, You cant say Arceus Cant solo the Digimon World. Thats offensive
That sounds like the internet in general
@@silvergiovanni5336 🤣🤣🤣
Powerscaling and fanfiction are basically two sides of the same coin, powerscaling is basically nerd fantasy football. No hobby is inherently toxic (unless your hobby is trolling), but certain communities make things toxic. As long as people don’t normalize being an asshole things will be fine and if they do then they won’t.
Power scaling is fan fiction
They are not the same.
“It’s just for fun man”
THANK YOU OH MY GOD. WHY CANT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND ITS JUST A HOBBY????
Fr
Its annoying when they say "something lvl this lvl that lvl fking lvl"
Calling power scaling a hobby is why i hate society
@@clivir8809 What?
@@clivir8809”quit having fun!!!” head ass
@@clivir8809 fr mf needs to go outside
Powerscaling is fine. Powerscalers are the ones ruining it for everyone. If they stayed in their own spaces we wouldn't even be having these conversations
Goku clears
Bingo!
@@The_Woshsaitama better/j
@@girly_tricksterNah Giga colossal titan Armin solos 🔥🔥🔥
@@justssj4chillin8 giga who?
Just casual power scaling is fun. It's when you become a fanboy and make it your entire personality, it becomes cringe.
Exactly. You're a one piece fan, I'm sure you've seen those fan boys that will come up with the dumbest reasons to have their characters win
@@marshyboy4637average op powerscaler after saying luffy solos fiction because gear 5 has the power of imagination:
@@shudeepta Haha yh
@marshyboy4637 there not power scalers there just dumb fanboys
Sounds like you are a miserable one
8:54 Way to misrepresent Big N' Stuff. He was not in denial that Jolyne could punch the meteorites but rather the idea that her punches could deliver a force equivalent to a small nuclear bomb. If that were the case then the rest of the story wouldn't make much sense given she would be able to bypass so many obstacles by punching them like those iron bars which she herself stated she couldn't break open. And in that panel, the only thing that is stated is that her punches had a destructive force equivalent to a small high-velocity meteor. It never goes into the exact mathematics of it.
Real
Yeah 100% right. A casual reader wouldn't know that in order to punch a small meteor you have to have a destructive force equal to a small nuclear bomb so that sencence could mean everything. As soon as you do the maths you realize that things don't add up.
In the wise words of Billy:
*"Power isn't cringe scaling, you're cringe"* lol
But seriously I think it just comes down to when calling any other group or fanbase toxic or cringe: yeah every fan base can be bad but key word CAN. There's always gonna be bad apples in every orchid it's best to ignore them and pick the better ones.
It also annoys when people try to bring up Stan Lee's: "It's the writers choice" and act all high and smug about it when it's just annoying. There is no writer in a Vs Debate that's the point of one, there's no one really able to answer the question so people debate and power scale it you're just avoiding the question and not saying anything worthwhile. I think that's all I have to say.
Fun video META 👌
Stan lee was right
In the versus debater case, the writer is the coomunity.
Tf is Billy blud, but see you again looks like you're really into ben 10 and power scaling
@@nagatouzumaki4047coom💀
@@nagatouzumaki4047but stan Lee is for in verse debate
Outverse debates links two different franchise so his statement is deemed invalid
@@nagatouzumaki4047 No
Powerscaling and debating is fun, its just that the ppl are annoying. Even if theyre not being toxic, they can just be annoying at times. They either cant comprehend a joke, sh*t on others fun, or are actually chill and understand that powerscaling is just to have fun.
I like power scaling I just hate people making stuff up or adding so many handicaps to their side and pretending it's a fair fight
Like Goku vs Vegeta in Saiyan saga. Vegeta won that fight hands down. Only way he lost was getting 3 more people helping Goku. But if it was a real one vs one Goku would have died. People remember it as Goku beating Vegeta.
Same with how people imply what the character can do instead of what is actually shown. If one character has martial arts as well as the same level of skill they win automatically.
Basically it's an ego trip for people
Especially bleach fans
@@KingDingDong69 not really. It's more one piece fans as rob Lucci is taking Ls all day now.
@@ivanbluecool yeah because one piece has one of the most mysterious Powerscaling, very inconsistent and lack of feats, one piece has one of the weaker verses in terms of power scaling but ngl bleach dogs getting outta hand
@@KingDingDong69 one piece was more on skills but not on the level of Jojo where a power can make you broken if they never figure out how to counter it.
Jojo is probably the best balanced as everyone is a human for the most part
@@ivanbluecoolYeah, many Stands in Jojo can be broken if you know how to utilise them.
Death 13, for example, is incredibly broken, especially since anyone that get dragged into the dream world cannot retaliate or summon their Stand, unless their Stand is already active before they fall asleep. But, it's useless in real combat because the Stand cannot manifest in the real world, as far as I remember. And also because the user is a defenseless baby.
Yeah, the biggest problem in power scaling is basically favoritism... "I want the character that I like, to win" that mentality ends up turning a good discussion into absurds downgrades or wanks...
(Not even gonna coment the fact that it's fictional so there's no base rules/laws of physics or something like that, so it can vary a lot depending of the author, and opinions specially when a feat is not explained in the series, then the explanation lies in the opinion of the public, wich varies, a lot...
powerscaling is mega dumb but still fun.
Their laws of physics don't apply to our world's laws of physics, And different fictional verses's also have different laws of physics and rules that only apply to their world so most of the time it's uncomparable. Yeah sure it's fun to do estimations on how strong your favourite characters are, but why can't people just have a friendly debate about it instead of doxxing and insulting each other based on which character is stronger than which.
It 100% can get cringe. I love powerscaling in moderation but when people take it to serious and act like they have a score card of how many times they have to be right or something. that's when it gets quite annoying, only thing is its pretty common for people to act like its competitive or something.
You could say that about anything, but I still agree. I've been to discord, I've seen how cringe it can get 😂
@@NonAryanDuck just cuz you can say that about everyone, doesn't mean on average that other community tends to do that. on average powerscalers are fucking dweebs who attach their ego to a strong fictional character
@@NonAryanDuckfr scans this, scan that 💀
I get so agrivated by people who look at one feat that happened one time and just completely ignore the characters powers and moveset and ignore the story progressi g there seriously dumb enough to think they do those feats for power scalers and ots not just flashy action sce es to sell money do people not understand these are movies and not documentaries feats in fi tion get messy it's why you should primarily scale based on the story/narrative and logic comparing contrasting there powers to come to the mostlogical outcome not look at one wanked feat that Noone even the directors noticed I literally see people scale Spiderman above hulk using physics
I'm confused why something can't be cringe and fun at the same time, but maybe I'm just too free. Being cringe or being called cringe isn't the end of the world, it feels weird to me that both sides are so hung up about it.
Because to be cringe in this specific instance is to ruin the enjoyment of something for other people. Like having an opinion on a certain character and then getting beat over the head with hyperfixation and extensive research to show not that they have a different opinion than you, but that you're a brain dead idiot for even having your own opinion in the first place. Sometimes its also followed up with the stupid memes and general toxicity that powerscaling can be known for. It gives off basement dweller, never seen a bar of soap, desperately needs to touch grass energy. Like folks have actually threatened each other with physical harm over the capabilities of fictional characters. So yeah usually cringe and fun dont go together like this. Now if we were talking about something that could be seen as "embarrassing" in relation to cringe, then yeah cringe can be fun.
Listen, I apologize if I missed your point but I'm distracted as I write this and only skimmed-
Is there some reason that the people calling others cringe have an opinion that matters?
people take it too serious
@@King_Ryugaidk , just embrace that some people will think you are "cringe" and stop caring about it. Be free. It will lose its power.
@@Nevahwins yeah well I actually explained but you literally didn't read. 🤦🏾♂️ so that's really on you I guess
It's not the concept itself that's bad, it's the people that ruin it. Power scalers get overemotional
Uncle grandpa one taps all of the existing matchups
@@ThrillerXero And here we see a wild "anti-power scaler" in its natural habitat. Arguing its points about uninteresting characters winning against actual entertaining characters, thinking that its rebuttal is of any substance to anyone, not realizing that it's just for entertainment, and ironically becoming just as annoying as the so-called power-scalers.
@@jokerinojiovanna No way there is a guy trying to bother a living being in its natural habitat and doesn’t have a sense of humor
@@jokerinojiovanna Powerscaling is poorly disguised fanfic. Stan Lee's quote still applies because-get this- YOU ARE STILL THE AUTHORS OF A FICTIONAL SCENARIO. You got nowhere. Lmao.
@@largerthanastarThat literally proves authors care about Powerscaling, since according to you powerscalers are authors.
People hate power scaling because it can be used to prove that yes, your favorite character isn't the strongest lmao
No, because it doesn’t make sense for a certain comparison "just for fun"
what?@@NightmareZzK
@@Nyehhhhhh it’s because power scaling have it’s trail and error
again wtf are you talking about?@@NightmareZzK
@@Nyehhhhhh ppl don’t hate power scaling bc their favorite "character" isn’t the strongest, they hate it because it doesn’t logically make sense(sometimes) and unexplained power ups
There are too many people that think character A is overall better because he is stronger than character B and that is probably why powerscaling is viewed as something cringe. I personally just like hearing a bunch of dudes bring those characters to life with physics
Definitely
Like my boy Kaleb I.A so eloquently put it. Powerscaling isn't cringe, it comes free with your fucking writing
What is cringe are people associating coolness and power. When Gear 5 1st came out, people were saying luffy now solos fiction via..... toon force? Them grasping straws to wank luffy aside, there's this very basic idea that losing is uncool, and would devalue their favourite charcters who's coolness relies on their power. Very basically, someone like madara, gear 5, etc getting neg diffed by yamcha would make madara and gear 5 worse losers and jokes than yamcha(yes ik gear 5 is a form not a character). But really, if someone thinks losing or getting defeated is uncool or devalues who they are….. their probably toxic and petty showoffs irl
And then there are simply those who deny power scailing because they can't comprehend the idea that characters get stronger, so previously established scailing is now different. And whenever scailing changes, the thing they say is "oh, the fans care more than the writers, writers don't care that much about what they write" which might be true for some, but not all. “what? Piccolo is on par with super Saiyan after 3 years of training? Plot, toryama nerfed the super saiyans. Toryama himself doesn’t know what he’s talking about, probably forgot his own story. Goku getting over 10x stronger in a week when flying to namek and another over 30x after getting a zenkai to fight frieza tho? Makes complete and perfect sense. I wish dragon ball’s power scailing made as much sense as it did back in the day, dragon ball really fell off”
The whole "Who ever wins is who ever the writer wants to win" makes absolutely no sense as a debunk to power scailing either, while technically not false, it's just bad story writing advice
Same, dude. Saying this as a powercsaler here, I'm honestly doing it for the most shallow of reasons. Example:
Me: "Wow. That character has cool powers and looks cool. Me wanna know how strong he is. Oh look. Another cool character with cool powers. I wanna know who beats who."
That's literally just it. I'm the type of fan whose biggest focus on a character is their powers and looks. I also look at their personalities and backstories and motivations etc., but I mainly like characters for how cool they look, and how cool their powers are.
Thats why I like stuff like JoJo, Chainsaw Man and Overlord. Their powers are cool-looking, complex and interesting to observe, and they look so stylish and badass while using them. And naturally, being so focused on powers and coolness, I tend to look at other characters from other media to see who would win, because their different powers have a cool way to clash and interact, and I find that fun.
I said FUN.
(Also I just like debates. What's with being part of a debate club and having played stuff like Ace Attorney, Danganronpa and Umineko.)
At the end of the day, that's all there is to it. It's meant to be FUN. The biggest problem is the idiots who take it too seriously and snivel and whine when the outcome they want doesn't bear fruit. Those should just be knocked out Markiplier Punch style.
Same for those who go out of their way to attack powescalers that are genuinely nice just because they're *cringe.* Know your place, and if you're looking to attack powerscalers, attack the toxic ones. Keep away from the good and nice ones.
LITERALLY
I do it for the same reason as you do
Great video making arguments even a casual like me can get behind, I'm glad that you addressed the toxic side of the powerscaling community as well. I did not kill a man in downtown Mississippi, 2008.
??????
@@METAsMETAs I can confirm they did not, in fact, kill a man in downtown Mississippi.
that was my uncle
Hating power scaling is so pointless. Its literally the "stop having fun meme"
Worse, it's more like "turn your brain off and don't think about it because I unironically find it boring to use my imagination for some reason and you should do it too!".
I just hate it cause of how dumb
Some of the generally accepted stances are
Multiverse kratos,arceus and kirby
Like just insane lv of strenth that is literally never represented in the series proper
@@nagatouzumaki4047do people really accept arceus as that strong seriously I’m fine with Kirby since it’s kinda funny but yeah it is kinda dumb same with Kratos too I’ve never seen him actually do something like that
Yea general consenus is literally that kratos and arceus can destroy multiverses
@@nagatouzumaki4047 The Multiverse has existed in Pokemon for like 6 years how have you just learnt about it.
Those who take powerscalling too far get cringe and toxic
Bro it’s because people get tight about it and kinda feeds into the most unhealthy aspects of the discord debate bro culture.
The act of being a super nerd and attempting to use as many known quantities as possible to plug into different equations as a way to try and haphazardly stretch the laws of physics to fiction is on its own fine. But it’s inherently quite silly and a lot of us me included take it way too seriously sometimes
I loathe the term cringe. It's such a thoughtless way to say "thing bad" without giving anything any deep thought or reason
genshin impact player ofc u cant understand the term cringe. "Thing more so repulsive then just bad"
It makes people mad i love it😂
@@m7mad182 Yunno what. I respect that (at least more so then the other guy that I refuse to acknowledge). If trolling makes you happy, keep on trolling.
think it's more so the people using it. a lot of modern terminology and "slang" nowadays are so overused that more often than not people don't know how to correctly use it. like "gaslight". everyone and their mother uses the word gaslight now to anything even remotely related to "brainwashing" or the like. had a guy that honestly said you can "gaslight an idea"...
0:41 "By no means am I trying to hate on the guy, he's just came to the same conclusions as many others before him. And I'm not going to throw him underneath the bus like my predecessors, Seth and Chuck did in the past when these same arguments came around."
Instances in which he distinctly _does_ take on a somewhat hostile tone towards Bigs:
0:35 "However this anti-power scaling video is the same regurgitated arguments that I have been personally seeing over the past ten years."
8:33 "However, in Big N' Stuff's video, it clearly shows that he did not do his research, as right before his favoritism segment within the segment, he cherrypicks and is biased right before it."
I do believe you when you say you're not trying to hate on Big's video, but I still think you could've done a better job conveying that because how you talk about him does sound kinda hostile a lot of the time.
Saying someone is incorrect is hostile to you?
Because saying “your argument is just a regurgitated talking point”, isn’t at all aggressive or violent, it’s just dismissive due to it being, subjectively, a commonly spoken and insubstantial statement.
If I said “I don’t think you know what you’re talking about,” and you felt that was being hostile, I think the reason people think powerscaling is toxic is because they think a firm disagreement without sugarcoating is some kind of form of toxicity.
It’s not even being “oversensitive”, no one is oversensitive, it’s just being dishonest and cowardly. And that’s me being upfront, not hostile, I can call your argument cowardly without even feeling hostility towards you, because I am using that word to denote a refusal to stand up to opposition without resorting to deflection.
How is him being hostile even relevant? 😂😂😂
@@ShesBearynice Yeah, it's totally 'just saying someone is wrong'. Mhm, sure. That's all there is to those quotes lmfao
For me Power scaling was always a cool thing to think and theorize bout witv friends to see what your fav charackters are able to do
Then the internet made way too big of a thing with the whole its cringe things
Why canz we just all have our fun with it and those that wanna do ot seriously shouldnt get called cringe or so. Cause into legit power scaling a ton of work goes into
you get called cringe because of how far you go. its a cool little thing to theorize about, but those same people that put a "ton of work" into it VERY often like to act as if there word is concrete.
like theres a reason seth and the toxic little group was the face of powerscaling for a while simply because im not going to say majority but a large portion goes about powerscaling in the toxic fashion.
That or they just say the dumbest takes like goku or opm beats everyone. Its a bunch of Airheads and self proclaimed know it alls just giving takes.
@@gelatogremlini don't think i've ever seen a powerscaling video that took more than 30 minutes of research to make tbh , most of the time is into editing . and most powerscaling calculations are incredibly simple calculations , i don't think i've ever seen a calc with above a 6th grade level maths
@@SkeetWeet4368 lets be real finds calcs statements and more for an anime thats concrete definitely takes more then 30 minsthe pixel counting and scaling etc. plus the powerscaling community doesnt just exist on youtube dont get me started on other sites like the communities in insta/X or the fourms like VS battle wiki, comic vine
Powerscaling is a debate but fun and sometimes toxic
Powerscaling is literally just 90% reading comprehension and I cringe whenever people use that stan lee quote because they grossly misrepresent what he was trying to say and also its an appeal to authority
Are you one of those that believes Batman can beat anyone he wants?
Appeal to Authority niggas when it's just Ethos:
"Reading comprehension" Taking flowery flavor statements literally and extrapolating abilities from that break or render a fictional setting nonsensical, and/or taking calculations derived in our own reality and assuming they accurately in map onto and reflect depictions in/of fictional(And often inconsistantly made)worlds(And also coming to nonsensical answers).
Though to be charitable, a fair portion of power scaling is reasonable and backed firmly by their settings. It may just be the ones I've interacted with are the cream of the crop of loons.
Also, regardless if Stan Lee, some authority or some random other individual off the street said it, the quote is accurate. At the end of the day, fiction and it's battles are at the whims of the authors writing them. Calcs and feats be damned.
The fact he wasn't even referring to powerscaling in the first place proves they don't actually know what they're talking about.
He was referring to his own comics, and never once mentioned feats or scaling or anything you'd hear in a powerscaling sense.
It's not an appeal to authority, it's a basic explanation of what fiction is and why powerscaling is irrelevant cringe nonsense.
People meme "Batman with prep-time" so much because "prep-time" is not meant to be taken at face value. "Prep-time" doesn't mean Batman is invincible, it means he picks his fights carefully, it means he never faces an opponent half-cocked, and while he can improvise he never wins all fights.
I see it as he always win😂🤣
Powerscaling is fine, but we can’t deny that there is a side to it that is very cringe. Like it delves way to deep for it just being fun anymore. Like some of these powerscalers treat it like there conclusions are absolute and attack those who disagree. That part of the power scaling community is 100% cringe. If you just do it for fun, then yeah it’s fine
if u start breaking out your calculator and trying to apply real world physics so much to explain how strong a character is you already lost me, i already know where that convo is headed
@@xaevius5319 Oh yeah real physics doesn’t belong in powerscaling imo either. It is fiction after all
@@zachspool exactly. idk why these guys forget that these fictional characters can "deflect bullets with their sword" just cuz it looks cool and not necessarily mean that they can react at the speed of a bullet so that should mean that that character can consistently react at that speed
@@xaevius5319I mean if they can do that consistently then they kinda can?? I’m not trying to start an argument or something just putting this out there.
@@Hehehe-wu9wmthey "can" but that "power" of theirs can get nerfed at a drop of a hat and even for for just a couple of seconds because the fight still needs to have tension. like jotaro with his stand, he can punch a bunch of knives thrown at him at "light speed" (the punches) and yet he still gets hit by a knife or two here and there. is that bad writing or is that just the author showing that the character can still get damaged? can he really punch and react at light speed or is the punch rush just a good comical way to show "he can punch fast it looks like there are multiple fists coming at me"? he's fast with his punches but he can still get hit. and yet these nerds don't think for a second that this is just a story, it's fiction and the author ain't a scientist, that the rules of the world will usually warp around the narrative and not the other way around (when it comes to stuff like this). i mean it's fun for me if star platinum "punches at light speed" if it's like a game theory video like "oh, if star platinum was in the real world this would be the measurement of the speed of his punches", but when that's a bullet in your argument for powerscaling? hell nah.
What annoys me is when some fanboy says
......negs
This Video is great, I love how its structured and I think it would be great if you could turn it into a series of videos in that you adress some missunderstandings or beiests happening in the community.
Sorry if I made some misspellings, im not a native english speaker.
Hold on you might be cooking
@@METAsMETAsyou need the authors in the writers and the creators to get the answer power scaling is inevitable
@@METAsMETAsthis defense towards power scalars is really annoying stop Powers scaling is trash your life is more important than just that why can't you idiots understand that there's something wrong with your brain better if you can't understand that your life is more important than just some stupid math science try learning that on your school reports or something
@@METAsMETAsstop raging cuz nobody likes power scaling this is ridiculous you making your argument sound stupid
@@METAsMETAshe actually did do his research did you no you have not so shut up
Mfs be saying Powerscaling is cringe when they can’t even solve basic Algebra equations in highschool. Can’t even do geometry right smh 🤦♂️
Can’t be all bark and no bite. Yapping without any proof you smarter than these mfs that try to calculate how Goku can physically destroy an 8th dimensional realm outside the multiverse.
Shoutout to all the power scalers who calculate complicated ass feats,they the goats for real. Saves me the time of pulling estimations out of my ass.
I just don't like when they start coming at you with their calculations of how fast a person is or how durable they are, dude i want to have a chill debate no need to calculate manga panels that don't even fucking move
The problem is the fact that powerscaling itself makes no sense. For example, in one death battle video they explain how Jolyne punching a meteor makes her be able to punch with the force of a small nuke, which makes absolutely no sense. Or how people say that Zoro is lightspeed bc he dodged Kuma's attack even though he got bodied by Kizaru's kicks. Also powerscalers constantly throw out dumb terms like FTL or MFTL without realizing how out of place they are.
I think powerscaling can be quite the useful tool in assessing the quality of stories. I wouldn't consider it the biggest part of critique, not even close, and you definitely don't need to go as hard into as say you guys do to get the required result, but I think powerscaling is very useful in seeing if a story's characters are consistent (power-wise/skill-wise) throughout.
A big flaw many stories could have (especially stories with combat) is that of inconsistent power levels and character skills, but those flaws might get lost in the style and substance of the story, so I'd say powerscaling can be very useful for analyzing the action aspects of a story aside from just set-up, choreography, story significance and whatever else.
For example, I've seen a handful of people critique Captain America Civil War for how Iron Man could get beaten by Cap and Bucky in their 2v1, that's powerscaling right there, I've also seen counters to those critiques, that's also powerscaling. Powerscaling helps in discourse, and I really like that.
What? In what world assigning outside of the story stat blocks and tiering to characters could help you measure the quality of that story? Authors staying consistent to their own rules isn't powerscaling, pointlessly trying to scientifically analyze how exactly strong characters X is and give a conclusive answer whether they can beat character Y.
In your example of Civil War there's absolutely nothing for powerscaling to help with, rather it highlights one of it's bigger flaws - each character has it's own fanbase that wants specifically their character to succeed. There's nothing to suggest Cap and Bucky can't win against Iron Man, people were just upset more popular character (by far) lost.
@@kindlingking by definition powerscaling would be judging a story's examples of what a character could do, sure it isn't as technical as what powerscaling would be know as, but it's the same thing. Why are you separating two things that are conceptually the same? The difference is that powerscaling branched off to be its own form of speculative entertainment for fans, where regular assessment of the character's abilities stayed in narrative critique and is only brought up when needed to. Going back to Civil War, that is powerscaling, because you are using evidence presented by the story and previous stories to see if Cap and Bucky could beat Iron-Man, and yeah, Cap and Bucky could beat Irom-Man.
Also, who's to say a closer more numerical look at a character's abilities couldn't help in analysis? Certain details may be lost in the bigger picture, sure you may not use the same terminology as powerscalers, but once again, you're just doing the same thing for a different context.
The problem is that literally nobody writtes stories with powerscaling in mind. So judging the quality of stories based on powerscaling is flawed because authors care more about storytelling and plot progression than powerscaling.
@@joaquincortescasas8114 the point is not that it can judge the quality, what I'm trying to say is that a properly thought out power scaler-esque mindset can help you asses parts of a story. Key word there being part.
It's basic consistency, similarly to how you'd judge the quality of character writing by seeing how consistent it is, you can judge a fight scene between two characters with the facts given to you.
I definitely worded the OG comment wrong, but hopefully this clarifies my point.
@@uryenatienza4093 The problem is that powerscaling applies real world math and science to scale feats in fiction, which leads to innacurate interpretations of the capabilities of a characters.
There aren't many writters that apply real world science while writting their stories because, guess what, properly comprehending specific branches of science used in a specific story takes YEARS of your life. Some people dedicate their entire lives to have a proper understanding of only ONE branch of science.
Literally 0.01% of powerscalers fully comprehend what they are talking about. The ammount of time and effort one would need to write a story that takes powerscaling into considerstion by applying real world science makes it not worth it focusing on it, when the large majority of readers prefer reading a good/interesting story, not an accurate one.
Hence, powerscaling doesn't work when you try to apply real world science to a story that wasn't made with real world science in mind.
Didnt change my opinion at all, i still think its cringe, but do what you like.
Same lol
If they use powerscaling to just show powerlevels only and not for fights that wont go as expected then i wont think its cringe
But they really wanna compare two characters,morons
@@Imjustaguy69420 so they are the morons while you complaining about someone hobby or doing what they love. You just don't want to listen and think your intelligent
My big brother is probably one of the biggest Goku meat riders I've ever seen. I'll ask him for proof and reasoning for Goku's strength and he gives the most vague manga panels that explains nothing. Goku is not the strongest anime character and he doesn't understand that. I'm getting him a Goku body pillow for Christmas.
LMAOOOOOOO
Bruh I know you from yba
@@KingDingDong69watery??? no way you watch metas too
@@Seinsmelled I have always watched this guy, he’s simply the best JoJo RUclipsr
@@KingDingDong69 oh wsg
"power scaling isn't cringe" "I'd compare it to the fighting game community or the fps community"
Pick one
I find it funny that those community are probably if not the most toxic communities in the entire world in my opinion so comparing power scaling to either of those two is ehh not a good way to say power scaling isnt toxic
Maybe you both need to touch grass if every community is "toxic" to you.
@@opadrip I didn't say toxic, I said cringe. If you don't think gatekeeping beginners or complaining about basic gameplay features of the genre that makes your community isn't cringe then idk what to tell you
@@opadrip Exact reason people think those communities are toxic people like you
Personally, I think the reason powerscaling is even a thing's because people wanted to find a way to use the math they learned in high school that they never used again.
As a up and coming writer while power scaling in neber my full focus it is important. For certain arks ill write down how strong each character is compared to eachother its pretty easy to keep it mostly consitent with enough planing so a wroter doest have to go out there way to do it but it is important. And also power scaling in fun i love to think sbout hypetheticals between my characters vs characters in and out of my story. Peopel should just chill out and have fun.
I love this video so much. I think you did an amazing job at approaching a broad (maybe controversial?) topic in such a civil way. Then again, most of your videos are usually formatted in the sense of sticking to the facts and not being biased, so I knew this video was going to be a banger to begin with. I just wish there were more videos (on youtube in general) that cover one side of a coin without becoming extremely opinionated, or just straight up a slander match, and I think this video is a pretty golden example at being able to do that. Keep up the great work!
Power scaling is honestly fine in concept. It’s just power scalers try to do everything in their power to justify their favorite character winning. It’s annoying and kind of ruins what would normally be a pretty fun conversation.
Not everybody likes powerscaling... Maybe for you, it's just for fun, but a lot people take it very seriously a lot of times. People can get very salty and ignorant when they realise the character they liked isn't actually at a certain level of power like they may have thought. 6:24 This part where you talked about how people got mad over Krillin doing well against Super Saiyan Blue Goku because it didn't make sense and that if the author writes something like that happening without a good explanation, that that makes them a bad author, i know a lot of people who would disagree with you on that and actually try to defend that scenes and try to make sense out of it even though there is no concrete, sensable explanation for it, you see? So, some people will start to be in denial and try to bullshit like that and they are part of the reason some people find the powerscaling community cringe.
Can't really blame people for thinking that way when guys like seth & chuck were making it pretty toxic and unfun over the few couple years. Not to mention Seth was a pretty rude guy
who is seth and chuck
@@ballslover-es9gw content creators
@@ballslover-es9gwSeth was like the first big power scaling RUclipsr who turned out to be kinda of a creep. Chuck is kinda of a chill dude but can get kinda of toxic at times
Generalizing a whole audience for something a small majority does is insane.
exactly ecepically when they were the face of powerscaling for a while. All these things about powerscaling are great but its just when they take it to far, which is common with powerscalers.
The only big problem I have with power scaling is when fanbases overhype how powerful their character is. For the last time, BEN 10 DOESN'T SOLO FICTION!
Fanbases aren't power-scalers tho
Yes he does
Nor does kratos.
@@nagatouzumaki4047and off course dbz deff no too
@@jacobwansleebenYet they can still give their mid ass opinion 😂😂😂😂
Rip Akira toriyama the legend
9:29 a little bit of a highball? I think I remember Jolyne not being able to bend the bars of the prison, so obviously she doesn't have the power to destroy the ENTIRE PRISON WITH A PUNCH. Power scaling is usually cool, but I hate when it's so inconsistent. Like when I want to see a fight between characters that shouldn't be god level and suddenly these characters have absolutely ridiculous power levels, or even worse, "light speed" or "FASTER than light speed" (whatever that even means)
While I never turned away from power scaling for the sake of writing, I haven't been able to really enjoy the community around it. The few times I tried getting involved in discussions, I found it hard to find people that wanted to TALK about it. Everything had to be a debate or argument, and it felt way too combative. With how aggressive people were, it made it feel like nothing could be discussed in good faith. It sucks, because I genuinely enjoy the topic.
I've said it before, but the animosity towards powerscaling has had a really negative impact on authors. Powerscaling SHOULD just be a very basic aspect of writing where needed, but with all the bad blood being thrown at authors, it's leading to cases where the subject is actively avoided.
Anything you wanted to talk about?
@@GeorgeDCowley Nothing specific. Topics have come and gone so nothing has my eye at the moment. Also responding super late.
Honestly, you're kind of spitting. Like I could make a comment disagreeing with the common narrative that is spread around and some kid will start acting condescending while spamming laughing emojis and you just know these guys don't watch the source material and probably get their opinions from power scalers or reviewers. It's fine to disagree with me, but some of these guys think they're the smartest people ever and anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. As someone with rare opinions like Luffy beats Naruto, Base Goku isn't God level and therefore doesn't stack SSG on top of SSG, or One Piece characters have planetary ap, my opinions will always be ridiculed without anyone giving me a real argument. Not really here to backup any of these claims since I'm tired of debating them because no one wants to have an honest discussion, they want to humiliate the opposition and make themselves feel superior and smarter than everyone else.
bro read the title and took it personally
Yeah it is.
People say Godzilla is 4D
(And a lot of times it just doesn't make sense)
Well godzilla ultima is actualy 4D but showa they make up some bs about him somehow being 747747392974849580695837727 D
I think Powerscaling is fine, it the people who are literally always commenting about how this “character wins” or “this character can’t even beat this character” or the most famous of all “Goku Solo”
Meta hit the nail on the head with this one. Powercaling itself isn't cringe.
It's typically the (toxic)person doing it, making it that way.
Like if my only interaction with powerscaling was rabid individuals going at each other throats over fictional characters' stats. I'm not going to lie I'd think it's cringe to.
However, I know that's an outlier and most people are a lot more down to earth and civil.
Also, nice shout out to Chuck. His videos and personality in them has really evolved.
Hopping Seth can pull a similar redemption but will wait and see
I also saw that video you've mentioned, and it got stuck in my head for some time. So it's good to see this video responding to that video, and hopefully I got a more well rounded viewpoint regarding this topic. TY
Most powerscalers are biased and or obnoxious because “nuh uh this guy is stronger so I like him and ur dumb”
Like many have said already, it isn’t Power-scaling what is bad/wrong/cringe/other-buzzword, but rather the power-scalers themselves, since many of them tend to be incredibly arrogant and act like know-it-all assholes. Then you have the power scaling communities and their debates that rather than find common ground and work together to craft a theory in the name of making some sense, they instead are more interested in winning the argument and piss on the other scalers like some sort of dick measuring contest.
Finally there’s the most important thing: It doesn’t matter when debating fictional universes against each others, since it boils down to who is writing the story and how they can simply make the mechanics of one’s universe work on the favor of their protagonist against others. An old European magazine had an interview from Akira Toriyama saying that Superman was weaker than Krillin’s pinky finger, for example.
Specifically about the part of "the winner is whoever the author wants to win" as a way to say powerscaling doesn't make sense, is actually why powerscaling makes sense. If both sides can claim a win then what's the point? There's no debate to be had. The reason we use feats as arguments is so that we have something to talk about and reason with, not something intangible like author's intent. Basic communication theory states that communication (such as debate) can only happen when both parties agree on certain things as basis, for example having a shared language and common definitions of things. Feats are the language in which powerscaling happens, without it there's no communication to be had.
Powerscaling is poorly disguised fanfic. Stan Lee's quote still applies because-get this- YOU ARE STILL THE AUTHORS OF A FICTIONAL SCENARIO. You got nowhere. Lmao.
@@largerthanastarThe same “authors” that use feats and statements to prove that character A is stronger then character B? Your point lead you nowhere, also btw most vs debates have no narrative.
@@largerthanastar
Why are you copy pasting this strawman everywhere? No one is arguing a vs debate isn’t a fictional scenario.
Power scaling is just a contest about who has the biggest feats, since any author of either opposing character being power-scaled against each other can comment about their own work however they want. For all we know Toriyama could’ve always said “Earth in Dragon Ball is different from DC’s or Marvel’s and even their average humans are naturally immune to Superman’s Solarly charged might/Infinity Stone energy/Spawn’s hellish artifacts/whatever other thing lol”.
I heard powerscaling so much that now it sound like a fake word
I agree. I have enjoyed powerscaling for over 15 years, and comparing in-verse characters is fun. However, I dislike cross-series VS debates and find them tedious like comparing apples to oranges. But I understand the appeal.
It's literally just a hobby. If someone said video games were cringe the whole internet would explode.
Video games, are different
It's not a online community with madeup standards.
Its just people playing a game. There's nothing fallacious or dishonest about it unlike power scaling
There are people who say that about video games
well its a little cringe but that's fine, its part of the fun.
Well put
These people clearly don't understand what powerscaling is and they don't want to learn that's why they've been using the same argument for years. To them it'll always be cringe no matter how much you explain it to them. Be it because they had bad experiences with powerscalers before or the fact that they don't like the fact that some worlds are weaker than others and for some reason they think that an verse being less crazy in terms of power is something bad about their favorite series or something. Despite it not mattering in the end as long the story is good.
I've seen a lot of people get mad at powerscaling shitposting, the whole 'can them defeat goku tho' is clearly a joke that people get offended for no reason.
why would anyone want to learn how to calculate pixels or w/e so you guys can apply real world physics to it? not only that but for the purpose of making arguments that your character can beat another dude's favorite character. people can talk about "batman vs superman" all they want, talk about their strengths and weaknesses and discuss the strategies they might use if they'd face one another, no one would complain, the fact that you guys have got this down TO A SCIENCE is what's fucking cringe since clearly the authors didn't create these characters with that in mind. they go off based on feel, not by numbers. these guys aren't scientists and yet you guys still continue to use real world science based arguments. why? because you want your favorite character to win. just for that lame ass goal.
@@xaevius5319 Because it's fun? Just because you don't like something it doesn't mean everyone should stop doing it. Although there are a lot of people that can get toxic with it.
Also powerscaling exists in stories, shows that ignore powerscaling get called out for having nonsensical asspulls in order to defeat the villains, yeah it's the writer who decides who gonna win but it's also their job to make it believable inside the fictional world they're writing. It's not as in depth as the powerscalling community does but it's still there, They could ignore it completely yeah but that would break the reader's immersion and it would qualify as bad writing.
@@riel7387 "Also powerscaling exists in stories, shows that ignore powerscaling get called out for having nonsensical asspulls in order to defeat the villains, yeah it's the writer who decides who gonna win but it's also their job to make it believable inside the fictional world they're writing."
yea sure, but usually that just gets chalked up to "writing", "character consistency", "plot armor", a whole lot of other things not "powerscaling" specifically. I write, i wouldn't consider myself doing "powerscaling". I didn't even know that what powerscaling is, is using real world science and numbers for what? saying your fictional character beats up another fictional character. most of the time these "arguments" boil down to, oh this character has this one insane move and/or is faster than your character, so he would automatically get blitzed. what would a writer find useful in that? you just made a shit fight. that's not entertaining at all. if everything went by how powerscalers do characters then a batman comic featuring the joker would just be 2 pages long. they'll chalk it up to "a master of a billion martial arts vs a guy who had a bad day". trust me, no writer needs to "know powerscaling" in order to be a better writer. he just needs to not be a shit one and be mindful of how strong he makes his characters. heck i'd say even just the advice of "plan your whole story out" would be great since most of the shit writing and "powerscaling" comes from higher ups wanting more comics/manga and/or the author didn't plan it so he has to make shit up.
so no we do not "not understand powerscaling". we know. cuz we're all "powerscalers" only difference is, the ones who don't claim to be one are the ones who don't take it too far and turn it toxic. we don't resort to using calculators and measuring sticks just to discuss "batman v superman". we also understand that most of the time a character from one universe doesn't translate well when u try to fight another character in another universe. there's a reason why stan lee made that infamous video.
@@xaevius5319brother,it is just that, power scaling is fun, the fun part is searching about the evidence and the best feats , not the ending part when we com to a conclusion on who won, +just because power scaling seems to not make sense to you on why using numbers and all that to decide who wins in a fictional fight doesn’t mean you have to shit on the subject, like bro you sound like the people who say “who can you have fun by reading a book? Its is just some nonsensical story that have people in an impossible situation to happen in real life !!” Some people finds fun in sports, or reading, or watching or playing video games , and some people like to use math on something werid like fiction, just because it sounds werid doesn’t mean it is bad, the bad part is the people who forgets that power scaling is for fun, but really that can be applied on aloooooot of other things ,.(sorry for my bad English)
@@bill.ciphersans3812 "the fun part is searching about the evidence and the best feats , not the ending part when we com to a conclusion on who won" well why don't u tell that to the many other powerscalers out there who seem to think and/or make up bullshit just so their favorite character can win? just cuz you say that's the fun part, that's the fun part for YOU. I don't think you need me to tell you that people can have different goals or motivations when it comes to the same thing.
"just because power scaling seems to not make sense to you on why using numbers and all that to decide who wins in a fictional fight" ???? when did I show that I didn't understand? i understand EXACTLY what you guys do. if you're talking about the first part of my first reply, that is a rhetorical question simply implying why would you do ALL this, just to end up with (what I consider) a pretty trivial and meaningless thing that more often than not just turns fucking toxic. i get why you bring out your measuring sticks, that isn't lost on me. what's lost on me is how people devolve the end game, the actual conclusion part itself wherein most of the time people are just disingenuous with their arguments and it's a matter of ego wherein one guy just doesn't want to hear another fictional character can beat up his fictional character. at best the frequent end result if it doesn't turn toxic is then just it's a boring "one guy has a one finish move, if he gets him with this turn one, he wins", neither of those do I like or find entertaining at all. I watch game theory, matpat breaks out his measuring sticks every now and again, we count pixels every now and again, and yeah i do like those cuz it leads to interesting theories or implications. why the fuck would I find people trying to apply real world physics to a show like jojo, say jolyne's stand, cuz of the meteor fight, that she's x amount strong "why doesn't she just bend the bars of the prison" feel productive or entertaining when the most obvious answer is the author is not a freaking scientist that is taking into account these real world physics as well as that's not the intention of the writer on how strong the character is because it's obvious she's not SUPPOSED to be that strong. if at the end of the day it's just "if we were to apply real world physics here, x character is actually ridiculously strong" then i'd have no problem. people turn it into their personal headcanon tho and fucking start wars over it.
"he bad part is the people who forgets that power scaling is for fun, but really that can be applied on aloooooot of other things " yeah, but like I say in other comments. a community can most definitely turn toxic. there can be rotten apples in a barrel full of good ones, but it's a different story when a community is KNOWN for their toxicity. and from my personal experience I can most definitely say that most of the powerscaling community is toxic. plus like I said, all of us are powerscalers, not every single one of us identifies as one or even knows the term 'powerscaling'. and the people who usually takes things too far are those who do indentify themselves as one.
Powerscaling is fun and sometimes addicting
I'm literally over here, scaling stuff from ads and cartoons that my sister watches
(I literally got a 6D scale for a deodorant called Rexona lol)
you need help.
@@StummyTicklePickleit can be fun if you do it logically and not throwing in random shit
@@oliver_editzz61 you cant use real world science in fictional stories bc it doesnt work that way. For example, if dragon ball characters were actually light speed then they would literally crush the universe.
@ most powerscalers are still aware that real life physics doesn’t always apply to fictional verses
@@oliver_editzz61 then why use them
The only problem I have with anti-powerscalers or people who have the opinion that powerscaling is cringe is that they always bring up the "the winner is whoever the writer decided to win" argument which is a stupid argument. I'd rather have someone simply saying that they don't like powerscaling because it's cringe because that at least boils down to one's own personal opinion. The very reason powerscaling exist is to scale how strong a character is when fighting another character. And not just in crossover battles, but in the character's own verse.
I mean now imagine a Marvel comic where TOBA for some reason started to destroy the multiverse and then suddenly base form Spiderman with no amp, no enhancement and no power up whatsoever defeated TOBA just because the writers wanted to. See how the "the winner is whoever the writer decided to win" argument is stupid? Because narrative wise it's also stupid. There's a reason why Training Arcs are so popular in battle manga or characters in basically every fiction that relates to battles requires some form of power up or method to make them stronger. It's so that they can be at the same level or surpass the level of their enemy.
That in itself is a small application of powerscaling and yet most people, specifically the active anti-powerscalers, tries to ignore powerscaling for some reason. There needs to be a *reason* for a character to beat another character. Writing wise writers can't just write a character beating another character without any reason or explicit explanation on how and why said character wins.
I'm just rambling but as METAs said, powerscalers (at least in the community) do what they do because it's just fun. So let us be lol. If you criticize the powerscaling community to be cringe or toxic, that can be said to any community.
Hate the player, not the game is the best take-away from this.
the game has toxic players
@@xaevius5319And that is not the game's problem. Nor the problem of the players that aren't toxic.
@@LunarFTW and how the hell are people going to enjoy playing that game if the eventual toxic extreme of it is what most people play the game for? are we really gonna act like we don't know what sort of people the game of "powerscaling" attracts?
@@xaevius5319 I "play the game", and I do it cuz it's fun to me. I try to play fair and understand the other side of the argument and see if it holds up and keeps the work consistent. I don't go out of my way to bother other people about it. The toxic side is none of my business nor my problem, aside from the fact that they end up creating people with your attitude towards it (and I don't mean this as an insult) due to their bad reputation, thus "poisoning the well".
Yes, every community has a toxic side, I do not deny that at all. I always say this, the "can he beat Goku tho" meme exists for a reason, because people like that *do* exist. That toxic side usually speaks louder than anyone else who is chill about it. It doesn't mean the entire thing is like that, nor that it is entirely bad.
How to enjoy a game with "toxic players"? Idk, avoid them? Cuz they aren't everyone. But shaming someone for a hobby that isn't inherently harmful and calling it dumb sure doesn't help in my eyes.
@@LunarFTW nobody from "my side" "shames" anyone who isn't toxic from the powerscaling community. you guys aren't the ones being talked about. if anything, we understand cuz even casuals engage in 'powerscaling' without having even known the term powerscaling before. the casual 'batman vs superman' talks, or the 'goku vs whoever'. but see that's where i kinda draw the line. I didn't even know powerscaling entailed using calculators and measuring sticks and applying REAL WORLD science and numbers to a fictional universe, all for what? for ammo to say a fictional dude is better than your fictional dude? hell no. the fact that the "community" has even broken it down to a SCIENCE already tells me everything i need to know. plus the fact that many of the powerscaling community seems to forget that narrative takes precedence over consistency in powerscaling is the reason why stan lee made that freaking video.
"Yes, every community has a toxic side, I do not deny that at all. "
yeah, but that's not really a defense. by that logic i shouldn't hate anything or hate everything because that can be applied to anything. face it bro your community is known for being toxic af with people hijacking conversations that don't even have to do with powerscaling being taken over. just cuz a community "can" have a toxic side, doesn't mean every community is KNOWN for it's toxic side. just like i said in my previous reply, the very idea of powerscaling attracts the type of people people despise in the community and they will almost always lead it to it's eventual toxic extreme. the fact that you're even trying to defend it, while also acting like "the toxic people" ain't your problem, even though they're the ones that make you guys look bad, just kinda screams to me as like a lack of self awareness and you want US to not condemn the practice of powerscaling as a whole because what? of the 10% you that aren't toxic? I've seen other people here that also consider themselves as 'powerscalers' but can admit and condemn the powerscaling community as a whole because they themselves KNOW how cancer it can get.
like a guy said: "I will never support a 'term' that goes out of it's way to be insufferable". I can discuss 'batman v superman' without having all these terms like 'feats', 'fast as light', 'multiversal' and all this shit. Honestly, if start discussing a character's 'power level' and another guy wanna try and engage with me coming at me with all that bs im checking out bro. I can "powerscale" without ever calling it 'powerscaling' because that's what i've done since before, and many others have done also before. we don't need numbers or measuring sticks, nah we just watch the show. that's it. that's why I can say "f*ck powerscaling" because while it is similar to what i've always done, it's different.
part of the reason i think people say powerscaling is cringe is the fact that they'll see, for example, a youtuber talk about goku's fight with beerus when goku first acquires ssjg. they hear the powerscaler scale goku to low multiversal because of that fight and think "wtf?!? goku isn't that strong? that makes no sense." basically a character gets scaled to absurd heights that doesn't seem feasible nor possible and people just don't even think twice about it.
despite the fact it's literally said that he can do said feat, people just choose not to believe it for some reason.
It's the boundless solos your verse zero diff
Type of stuff that makes power scalers cringe not any huge difference from the narrative as compared to the fans but that certainly helps
3:34 This statistic is pretty inflated, if I might say so. It doesn't take into account singular people that watch multiple videos in the series, which I'm willing to wager make up the vast majority of that total view count.
I just added the views up lol
You know, came into this pretty leery but I think you made your arguments extremely well. I've dabbled in power scaling less for VS debates and more to get a sense for how strong certain characters were and enjoyed that. Still, the more toxic side of debates is a huge thing that often drove me away from liking it.
The other thing, which you did correctly call out here, but that I also think remains a bit iffy is the Jojo example. You correctly address that the author does in fact think about these things, which is neat to know, but I am unsure if that or the statement regarding her ability to punch meteors entirely holds up given the example Bigs supplied regarding her struggling to beat regular people with punches.
This feels a bit like a glaring omission and is part of a wider strain of such things that pops up in a lot of shows. See for example, the fact Piccolo can blow up a moon with minimal effort at less than 500 Ki, but then struggles with a metal door when over 100 million. DBZ is kind of the ur example for inconsistent nonsensical power, but I do think its a problem in a lot of shows and makes stuff like this harder.
It's not cringe in and of itself, but taking powerscaling so seriously to the point that you breed toxicity in the fanbase is definitely cringe. The worst culprits are the people who compare two characters from different fictional settings who have nothing in common with each other except that both characters are powerful but one is blatantly more so, and the people who resort to personal attacks and call you "retarded" because you don't agree with them. Even if they're right and you're wrong, it doesn't make that kind of environment any less toxic seeing someone resort to insults over a trivial fictional character dick-measuring contest. "The writer determines who wins" isn't a valid argument in powerscaling, but it for sure is a good reason to not take powerscaling seriously.
This concept applies to a lot of things. There is nothing wrong with words commonly labelled as derogatory slurs, it's the asshole who's using them to insult you that is the problem.
Stan Lee was right
The Super Saiyan Blue Goku versus Krillain battle can be explained based off of Gokus extreme Ki Control. He was holding back significantly trying to not hurt his friend. At the end he got too exited and nearly ended the life of Krillain by using too much Ki for him to handle.
I love it because its fun.
The issue is that factually wrong arguments are the norm.
Ex: using calcs for being faster than light by dodging a laser, or misusing newtons 3rd law by transative property. (Kaguya can create dimensions, therfore she must have dimensional ap)which isnt the case nor does that make sense. Using hyperbolic statements as facts when they clearly are disproven by in story feats. Its fun in the same verse but because each verse has different laws of physics, its almost ridiculous to use our real world understanding of those physics.
Characters who move faster than light wouldnt be able to see anything. Characters who are stated to move at light speed would be diluting time around them and creating enough energy to explode planets just by being that fast with the large mass they have.
Tl/dr : its fun but misusing math and science to represent your charcter is annoying
Powerscaling in life : Man vs Crocodile = man is weak unless he has a certain weapon capable of oneshoting it. Nerd vs chad : nerd is weak but powerful unless he calls the authority or learns to gain muscles capable of overwhelming chad the right way
Nah look that Guy punched a train off the rail hes definetely city block level (yes I am talking about spider Man)
Meta, you do a good job of keeping it for fun and entertainment.
I think power scaling 100% has a place in media, especially if an author wants to make an older character relevant.
Let's use a very recent example, the Spot from Marvel. The Spot was treated as a throw away villain of the week for a long time. However, his abilities have a ton of room for potential growth.
Fans who power scale his potential give a framework to the author and vice versa of what the character can do. Thus allows the author and fans to give feedback without directly interacting.
The spot's potential for growth lead to him going from a minor villain, to the main antagonist of argueably the biggest spiderman film ever.
What I'm saying, is that power scaling gives a """"realistic"""" framework for how much growth characters can go through, and allow shonen stories to grow in a way that people believe more consistently.
lol nobody needs "powerscaling" that specific term in order for their stories to be better, you know what does? being a better writer? being consistent with your story and characters? great authors have done this shit without having to go to their calculators and imaginary measuring sticks
@@xaevius5319 And what makes being a better writer? Knowing what your characters can do. That's what Powerscaling helps you do.
@@opadrip "And what makes being a better writer?"
"show don't tell", "chekov's gun", vocabulary and learning how to write sentences, exploring themes and characters, knowing how to draw out tension, subtext, character design, "setup and payoff", dialogue, world building, "write what you know". a billion things that you could use to make yourself a better writer, not one of them starts with "p" and ends in "g". the entire reason you guys even went to rulers, calculators and shit like that is so you guys can use them as ammo to ARGUE that your favorite character beats the guy you're arguing's favorite character. no author or writer needs to have a phd in physics for them to be able to write a good character/story, cuz it's almost like you guys forget that in a battle vs narrative and consistency with "powerscaling", narrative will always take precedence and the characters will adjust accordingly, which is what the ultimate message of stan lee's quote was.
@@xaevius5319 okay, but you atleast need a rough scale of how character's relate to each other in terms of power. Yes, I get that its "whoever the writer wants to win", but that's a throwaway argument when you realize that a good story has consistency in terms of power. Spider-Man just beating Galactus with no explanation will always be rejected because it doesn't matter if "narrative takes precedence", you need that kind of consistency in terms of power level to not break the immersion, same as with a character's personality or how they react.
@@ProjektTaku and all of those things can be done without needing to be a "powerscaler". even someone who doesn't participate in either powerscaling nor writing stories knows spider man can't win vs galactus straight up. "but that's a throwaway argument when you realize that a good story has consistency in terms of power." yeah but most people don't argue characters in the same story/universe, they argue OUTSIDE of it. luffy vs naruto, goku vs anyone else in fiction, dr doom vs whoever. consistency gets consistently thrown out the window because people love to battle two characters that don't even operate with the same rules or laws for their universe/power. add to that when people argue someone like goku vs someone else in another universe that's quite strong but is obviously not as strong as goku but that's not the fucking point of his story. it's just an argument in bad taste because you know he doesn't stand a chance, that's not the purpose of his character or his story, but people still go for it cuz powerscalers only give a shit about "who's stronger" and will almost always talk shit about that other character being weak.
3:50 King Crimson being the most infamous.
Most likely, if a writer wants someone to win, they'll write a way for them to win.
A lot of the complaints on the other video aren't applicable to VS Battles Wiki, for example.
The fact that Batman vs Godzilla and Optimus prime vs Godzilla are actual debates. Is the biggest reason why i find it cringe/ridiculous
9:12 bold of you to assume that a jojo fan can read
Was worried i wasnt gonna see that beautiful intro after that monologue at the start
Okay, let's get it clear here, powerscaling itself isn't bad but people take it way too personality, don't understand that there is a large element of subjectivity to it, and just make up a bunch of tiers or rankings of power that make sense in their diluted minds but are actually nonsensical when you actually look at it. A lot of these higher tiers literally only exist for people can wank their favorite characters to. Everything in what's called "tier 1" is just a bunch of malarky.
Hot take: "Outerversal", "hyperversal" or "complex multiversal" don't exist. Like yes, they have a definition but the words themselves are about as empty. It's just used by a bunch of people who think of themselves as physicists when they're not. "Irrelevant speed" is also innately self-contradictory and the way people define immeasurable speed with a non-sequitur. In what was does having the ability to run backwards or forwards in time mean that an infinitely fast character will look frozen? Scaling a character anything above multiversal is wank 90.00% of the time.
Goku isn't "complex multiversal" or "outeversal" because the very concept of those things is needlessly complicated for a relatively simple subject, and because the requirements and definition of those tiers make literally zero sense. The same thing goes with Sailor Moon, or Sonic, Superman, Thor, or literally everyone else.
Fr. If you don't like power scaling then go away and don't interact. Power scaling doesn't mean toxicity.
More people need to be less biased because I like Spider-Man but I am not making the argument he claps superman because I love him. Try to be more accepting of other views and try to listen to others. Definitely need more control and respect for each other
As someone studying philosophy as my college major, I look at Powerscaling as a rigorous exercise in understanding and comparing different metaphysical systems.
Real ass shit
Every single conversation I've ever seen with powers scalers turns into people throwing personal attacks that IRL would get someone a mouth full of blood and tooth soup. It holds no predictive power over how writers write, and ignores the narrative purpose characters have in a story. If fans didn't get too emotionally invested, and didn't resort to insults, it would be fun, but that always happens. They also spill out into every conversation other people have online about the characters, and engage with the insults with people not interested in their vs argument, and highjack any discussion into a vs battle with scaling based arguments. It makes it hard to be involved in any fan community, as it drives people away, and from the outside looking in, appears to be filled with autistocrats that take being fans of fiction into a weird and hostile territory, for something that again, holds no power over writers and thus has no predictive power.
My problem with powerscaling boils down to 2 things:
1, in powerscaling i only care about seeing my favorite characters win agenst someone who vaguely seems op from another Frenchise and yet most of the characters i like are either unliked by the communityand thus never win anything noteworthy or are too obecure so that there are no debates about the characher at all
2, no one will will simply do matches i'd find interesting, the only vs debates the community semms to do are ones between characters in the same franchise or that arbitrarly similar to each other yet the kind of battles i want to see are ones where the charaters are pited agenst opponents whos powrsets are different enough that the fight ends up being more like a puzzle.
Jiraya vs master roshi happens to be simply very boring to me i'd more want to see jiraya vs ash ketchum because i think seeing and figuring out how jirya's trickery and theatrics would interact with ash's creativity and environmental awareness would be super interesting
I agree with this video. I personally dont care for Power scaling, I preer to just like learning more. The only reason I find it cringe is how hard people are with favoritism and generally how toxic parts of the community can be and its sad to so but the toxic parts of a community tend to be the loudest parts
I mean that's the thing with communities/fandoms there's going to have that toxic part that no matter how small it will always scream the loudest
@@victoroliveira3577Exactly
The two videos brought up by their thumbnails have a bunch of Strawman and Poisoning the Well arguments, just to tell all 14 people who haven’t seen them.
In what way did plague of gripes' video do any of those things? The entire point of that video was to breakdown how stupid the power scaling in the DRAGON BALL was, not that power scaling in general was bad. It was also more of a rant about Akira Toriyama's terrible writing.
another guy on the internet who doesn't get what "strawmanning" is lmao
While I agree with most of this there is something you missed.
Series with no canon like SCP are have issues because there so many different versions they pull from that if is impossible to debate.
The foundation can go from not being able to stop a lizard to controlling the Omniverse. Making very to scale and very hard to know which version the author is using.
Second are fans of hard science fiction who just refuses to debate properly because science and math beat everything even if other has feats to match them.
power scaling can certainly be cringe but not always
Big N' Stuff's argument about the Jojo character breaking a meteor with a punch because ''the author thought it'd be cool'' but otherwise has normal human limits
I don't watch Jojo, i didn't know he was wrong, but even if he was right, not seeing the problem is wild. Inconsistency is awful and bad writing.
That’s the thing. Meta doesn’t address this at all. Jolyne’s stand can punch meteors away which according to power scalers means it’s about as strong as a small nuclear bomb, but at the same time isn’t strong enough to break the bars of her prison cell?? Meta just says the calculations are correct but then forgets to mention she couldn’t even get out of her cell since her stand lacked the strength to do that
My man hit the risk of rain returns soundtrack in the mid of the vid as I was playing risk of rain returns
If Spiderman whooped Galactus' ass with no explanation, I'd be fucking HYPED 😂
@@Darkverse11 Wrong series
@@thedarknessinthelight9824
I miss reading Spider-Man with Superman😅
You're the only one with a response to these videos critical of power scaling that I've listened so far that is watchable. Good work there. Personally, is powerscaling cringe? Yes and no. I think powerscaling means different things to different people. As a writer, it's important to not have an infant with nothing special about them strangle the dark lord with their bare hands, I don't think anyone who is against power scaling is saying that writers don't care about that. But at the same time, I think it is pretty ridiculous to act as if writers actually breaks out the calculator and are aware of what their characters' feats imply on a physics level.
Personally, I think it’s frustrating when people act as if power scaling were an important part of storytelling when it’s really not. It can be fun to argue about which fictional characters are more powerful than other characters (all things being equal) but the idea that writers should do Death Battle style analyses is ridiculous
The problem for me is that nothing is close anymore, everything is Omni multiversal bs, like a character A can speed blitz with ultra light speed fart to destroy character B that is a omniversal reality warper douchebag... everything is so pointless now
Powerscaling itself is fine, but powerscalers are really toxic a lot of the time which makes powerscaling kinda annoying
Powerscaling can be fun...until people use calcs, if you are talking about a fiction and someone takes off his calculator, then leave because that just shows that the other person is a huge nerd that won't stop doing math until proving that he his right.