Slaving the red dot to the irons is a fine way to get the optic zeroing started. Then move it accordingly based on your preferred zero distance. All my RDS pistols have suppressor height sights, then I drop the dot slightly above half way of the sight. That gives me a pretty accurate 25yd zero.
I just zeroed my red dot to my 509t with suppressor height sights and the red dot is like on it like where the front post dot is , I think I did it wrong, since you mentions you had suppressor height sights that's why I'm asking
@@jonathanaldana4941 on suppressor height sights will give you a pretty accurate 25 yard zero right about middle of the front sight post. If you are using standard height I’d slave to the top or the dot on the sight post. You can fine tune from there, but I’ve found it’s the fastest way to get in the A zone and nit burn trough a bunch of ammo. I almost every of my semi pistols have dots and it works for me!
And this is exactly why I love your channel. As a new shooter, this is valuable information. I’m getting an rmr soon and am gonna be taking a class to learn how to properly use it, but videos like this seriously help my confidence especially since I’m legally blind without my glasses. God forbid I get them knocked off I can barely see the front sight but I CAN see ared dot. It’d be nice if you did a video on why a red dot is floating as opposed to just say painting a cross hair on the rmr glass (aka those old non magnifying Soviet scopes). Thank you so much for the informative video I had no idea why the dot shouldn’t be ON the front sight... keep up the awesome work!
You are spot on. The only area we differ is in yardage to zero. Since self defense is the overriding issue in using a handgun, and with most shooting events happening within 7 yards, I recommend red dot zero be at 10 yards with a full understanding of POA modification with red dot to achieve a POI at distances greater than 10 but equal to or less than 25 yards.
Yeah no. 25 yard zero will hit about 2 inches low at 7 yards, which is negligible. You don't need exact point of aim point of impact at close range. Much better to be able to hit long range shots without putting much thought into it AND being able to hit with more than sufficient accuracy at close range.
130shooter1, if you disagree with what this video advocates, can you explain or provide a source that explains why slaving to the sights is better? I'm trying to do my homework and would appreciate it. Thank you.
@@LaRemnant I don't disagree with him. Slaving the red dot to the irons is a good *starting point*. Just place the red dot so that it hovers just above your front sight. that'll get you on/ close to target. then zero the dot to the range of your choosing.
After 7 years of ccw I’m making the jump to the dot. I needed this video to spur my thinking in solving the irons question for my first set up to put through its paces before carrying it. Thank you.
I just zeroed my first RMR on Monday. Glad I did it the right way, although I did zero it for 15 instead of 25 yards. As always Aaron, thanks for another great knowledge filled video!
Aaron, there is no doubt that being a firearms instructor is your calling man. I would venture to say that you are the most knowledgeable and well spoken instructor that I have ever come across. I really wish that I lived closer so that I could take one or more of your courses. Thanks for putting in the time to help people like myself.
Today you have went from just "Subscribed" to now "Subscribed and Notified". This is one of the FEW channels that I watch, and listen to when it comes to firearm stuff. Thanks again!
IF you have zeroed your irons to the gun already, then slaving the dot to them is a great place to start. I don’t care if we’re talking rifle, pistol, absolute cowitness, lower 1/3 cowitness, etc. You can even do it in reverse if you’ve zeroed your dot and are putting iron sights on for some reason. However, it’s important to note that it should be viewed the same as an initial boresight. It still needs to be zeroed at the appropriate distance. I will say that with something like a rifle where you have an absolute cowitness through an aperture, I’ve found slaving to require no adjustment. Conversely, both handgun red dots and lower 1/3 cowitness put the dot off center which also results in more parallax shift. Still, slaving is something I consider to be on par with boresighting and must be confirmed or fine tuned to the zero distance of choice.
I learned about pistol RDS from Suarez International back in 2010 and have had a Glock 26/JPoint and a 19/RMR since 2011. I'm sure you are familiar with their doctrine, which is almost exactly opposite yours. Maybe one of the problems is that people don't zero their irons for a specific range, and just run with what came out of the box. I change front heights or file them down until I have the zero I want. The dot on my pistols happens to just sit on top of my front when I line up the irons. From the SI site: "The use of co-witnessed iron sights is a crucial factor in the usability of the red dot on a pistol (sighted at the same point as the red dot). With the traditional placement of the iron sights, sights that the eye has been trained to seek through countless draws in the past, the eye will go to the irons initially as they have always done in the past. The instant the iron sights are picked up, BAM, there is the red dot, and the eye can let go of the irons and use the red dot...ignoring the irons for any further use. The "visual hand-off" takes place and becomes automatic. The irons serve as "runway lights" or visual anchors to get the eye where it needs to be to pick up the red dot. There are no shortcuts...there is one proven way to operate a red dot system on a handgun." It shortens the learning curve and takes less time to acquire the dot once you have trained it. This way has always worked for me and hundreds of others.
That method is visually confusing and allows for far more parallax in the zero. It works, but it can’t work as well. The method I teach results in a shorter learning curve.
I just got my first dot today. Was looking for information on the best way to zero. First video I watched slaved it to the front sight. So glad I kept looking. Thank you for putting this up 🤘
I think the best way to say it and maybe the title of the video shoulda been "Let the dot speak for itself". The dot sitting a top the front sight clutters the sight picture up for most people to the point it makes it difficult to be precise with aiming and that shows up farther and farther away you go. When you press the gun out to the target and your sight picture is the dot all by itself on the target with the irons down below it, it makes for more precise aiming no matter the size of the dot and it's also going to speed most shooters up because of the less cluttered sight pic. Love the videos Aaron.
I am missing something. With the dot slaved, shot impact increased vertically as distance increased. With the dot independently zeroed the shot effectively stacked on top of each other. If the red dot was placed on the aiming dot at each yardage for both tests why is there a vertical increase? Instead of a stacked group somewhere above the aiming dot for the slaved dot test? Or is there truly that much elevation shift when slaved, given the bullet drop is an estimated inch at 25 yards?
Thank you for addressing this. Something I read all the time out there that folks just have to have these super tall sights to co-witness the dot. Never made sense to me. Just zero the dot, and as long as I can see the irons, it's all good. They are back up, and if they are neatly tucked away at 1/3 or even 1/4 of the lower window, I'm a happy camper. No need to make it any more complicated.
Definitely works... With my 509 tactical zeroed at 25yds I shot 3 shots at 3 and 7 yards and 5 shots at 15 and 25 yards put all 16 shots inside of 2.5".
Thank you. There's almost no other videos on the topic of using red dots that mentions that "co-witness" on a pistol actually refers to a lower 1/3 or lower 1/4 view of the iron sights in the optic window, not absolute co-witness or "slaved", like you said, where the iron sights and red dot are all aligned into a single sight picture. I got pretty frustrated having to do so much searching to find this simple but necessary information. Instant sub. Thanks again man, very much appreciated.
Thank you. I just bought the RMR and went to the shooting range for help. They insisted that I have to do the slaving even though in the manual instructions it says no need to co-witness.
I rewatched this vid after 2 years and I gotta say that this video and you, Mr. Cowan, more than any other human have radically improved my pistol shooting and my meliorated (look it up) my enjoyment of pistol shooting geometrically. Dude, It's a major item on my retirement budget now!
why should the poa/poi change with suppressor height? its the relative height between the sets of sights that determines the poa/poi. my original sights were made for a 15 yard zero, as were my suppressor height sights. i set the red dot just above the sights, not co-witnessed.
Thank you for putting this together. My takeaway is (1) try a 25 meter zero; and (2) don’t slave to the iron sights. I have been shooting for decades, and work part time as an RSO at our local outdoor range. It seemed like the time to learn about red dots. I’m dedicating one firearm to red dot aiming. Using one of my HK VP9s but this time with a longer Match barrel and equipped with an Aimpoint ACRO P2, with suppressor height sights. I’m sure that you have saved me a great deal of time. As an RSO I am frequently asked from newer shooters how to do pretty much everything so I felt it was time to get a red dot and become familiar with them. Thanks again for a logical explanation that I will pass on. Having a myriad of gear to do this with, it is clearly better just to go to those who do this for a living! Before looking at your video I assumed that all I would have to do was stick my Laserlyte boresight tool in my muzzle, adjust my Omega red laser (rail mounted) to the boresight tool, and finally, align the Acro to co-witness all those red laser dots. And somewhere in that process, see where the taller iron sight lines up with this! One suggestion to cat owners: Try this without a cat in the room. She will just be a distraction as I try to align all those red dots!!
That trick of Slaving the dot to the irons is only to get you a good starting point to zero from, even with aim points on m4s we just did that to basically boresight the optic, saves on ammo to start, I did the same on my pistol RDS and it started off pretty close then made small adjustments to get actual zero
Everytime I make adjustments to my rds to rise the red dot my shot placement lowers when I lollipop the red dot I get my poa/poi. I'm trying to understand how rising the red dot would give you POA/POI. without using holds, becasue of height over bore.
I just got my red dot and I all videos i watch were about you have to zero your red do t to your sight till I saw this video and man you make sense thank you for making this video
Thanks for this!! Last night I zeroed three weapons with a bore laser, green laser, and iron sights. Back to the drawing board. Wife and I are going to have to agree on a convention for where all of our weapons are zeroed. Appreciated your point of view... not to be confused with point of impact or point of aim. [chuckle] Sorry, couldn't help it.
I have been searching and searching for a video just like this for WEEKS! I REALLY appreciate the sight picture visuals for zeroing the red dot. Love your videos man
Thanks for this video. Just received my RMR yesterday so it’s not yet installed. I’ve been watching several videos and digesting the information. For the life of me I couldn’t wrap my head around co-witnessing to the iron sights. Thanks for confirming my thoughts and putting my mind at ease. Great video!
As someone who will be buying their first RMR within the next month (tax returns baby), I'm curious how you feel about zeroing your dot to the irons as a method of "bore sighting". To then go to the range and then zero the red dot independently, only using the irons as a sort of starting point
I did this, and ended up clicking back the other way to probably right about where it was when I started. I’d shoot a good 3-5 shot group before did anything. You might be closer than you would be slaved to the front sight.
You can slave your red dot to the iron sights only if your red dot has absolutely zero parallax. The only such commercial pistol red dot I know is the Acro Aimpoint, one I would say is not the best for self defense since it’s very bulky. All other ones, single lens and far more slim, will present a tiny bit of parallax. This parallax will come noticeable at larger distances since the position of your eyes relatively to the gun when shooting with a red dot is slightly upward than when using iron sights. This means that, if your “freeze” the gun while aiming with iron sights, while you raise your head the slaved dot will slightly move down because of the parallax. Then you lean towards raising the muzzle to correct the dot movement and focus the target, and this is why the POI is a bit higher at longer distances.
I'm still confused. I think I zeroed properly, when I have the dot in the center of the glass, my irons aren't aligned. The front sight is higher than the rear. I was roughly 1.2 inches low at 10 yards so I went 12 clicks up with my rmr. Seems like now they're zeroed at 10 which is very close to my irons. Maybe a 25 yard zero would separate them more? When I align the sights they end up about where a circle would be on the far sight if they weren't flat and blacked out. 509 MRD midsize. They go for cowitness suppressor height sights so maybe that's why
I have to explain the proper way, the way you are describing, every time I go to the range with my Army unit. All of the 1SGT's get real loud about just slap the CCO on the M4 and put the dot on the front sight and you'll be good to go. Thats a good way to get close on paper zero distance but you lose the advantage of the red dot just the same as the pistol setup you have.
I had the same problem with my chain when Aimpoint showed up. I shot red dots in the 90's and when they issued us M4's and Aimpoints in the 00's, I zeroed the optic, to their dismay. They really don't understand the advantages they are giving up by "just put the dot on the post". I did try it their way once. It sucked. And I sucked with it.
Any method to get on paper is a good thing to do (at first) , but (IMO) the optic should be zeroed at the distance you desire, regardless of weapon/aiming system. Anything shy of that is a compromise and I imagine many times that compromise wasn't necessary.
I have my guys zero iron sites first. Then, to get on paper, they absolute cowitness the dot to the front site. From there, zero the site normally. You should end up with a lower 1/3 cowitness. All should be done using 36 rounds total. It's the only way for me to get mass people through with both irons and red dot zeroed properly.
@@theimmortal4718 I deal with people who touch guns once a year and only to qualify. Some spend the entire day on the zero range and the people in charge just let them shoot all day long wasting ammo.
One could also argue that your grouping at 25 meters/yards/yarters/metards slaved was so off because of bias against doing something you have a position against. I must admit that the results are still visible and are more than likely statistically significant. Thank you for the lesson.
@@SageDynamics I have too. There is always four or five people who zero their irons at 25m, then bring their red dot to the irons and wonder why they can't shoot the targets past 150m. Heck, Pvt Rickner did it back in 2011 in order to not look like I couldn't shoot, the "Hey, look at me, first one zeroed..." Mentality. End result; I couldn't shoot. I only ever used irons because I knew my dot wouldn't hit it. Back then, i watched someone sit on a lane dialing their irons to center mass, then take that same weapon and dial the dot in. It probably took him twenty shots total, but I remember asking, "why doesn't he just put the dot in line with the irons and call it a day." He gave me your same lesson just about a decade before this video. My intent was to discount confirmation bias from the results, as opposed to discounting you. I apologise if you got the impression that I was trying to invalidate your stance on the matter.
I've watched this video twice and I still have the same question: Why does this happen? At 2:45 you have a graphic labeled "DOT ZEROED INDEPENDENT OF IRONS (CORRECT)" however in that graphic the irons are pointed at the bottom of the backstop, while the dot is pointed at nearly the top. I'm assuming that's just a dramatization of the difference, but I'd love to know if it's not. When I aim the iron sights at something, I expect it to hit (assuming I know the holds) so I'm wondering why this isn't the case when I add a red dot to the exact same sight picture. When I zeroed my optic, I aimed at something about 50yds away with my irons, then put the dot where I expected the shot to go. I'm going to do some more testing tomorrow now that I saw this video, but I still don't exactly see what's wrong with that.
Still a bit of confusion. I zeroed red dot at 25 yds as my suppressor ht sites hadn't come in yet 2 of 3 pistols w/RD's. When I do line up my iron sites the red dot sits center but a touch low on my sites of my EDC. But for all tense and purposes the red dot sits on my front post if I line up the irons correctly. This is actually how all three of my pistols with red dots are, despite me zeroing the red dot, and not having high iron sites at the time I zeroed the RD . My confusion is if my iron sites are on at 25 yards how would the dot not line up with the irons? I use the full window and center the dot top to bottom side to side when I shoot with the RD. If I do focus on and line up my irons the dot is right there on the front post. How can it not be? Sincere question not trying to be a wise acre. Thank you
For the average adult at full presentation, the front sight post is going to be 12-16 MOA in size depending on which irons you use. No one makes an RDS that large. Consider that 2-6 is the most common range of dot sizes. That means your RDS may very well appear on the front post when you align the irons but it’s somewhere in that 12-16 MOA size, not actually the same POA/POI. If you just slave the dot and call it zero, it can be off considerably as the irons allow for a much more vague zero.
@@SageDynamics also, wanted to say the white papers on the RDS... NICE!!! Learned a lot that I'm applying to my training. Even passed on to my firearms instructor and he took away good knowledge. Thank you for all that hard work you shared.
I think the problem with slaving to the irons is the way you’re saying to do it (and probably the way a lot of people do it) you shouldn’t be putting the dot right on top of the FSP. The way I zero (slave) is perfect iron sight picture, get the dot centered to the FSP, and then center it to the middle of the window while making sure my iron sight picture hasn’t changed (accounting for parallax).
Thank you. I just received my slide back from being milled for a lower 1/3 height. I noticed that I ran out of adjustment on my RMR trying to get the dot down to the level of my stock front sight post. After listening to your video I now realize the error of my ways.
I like this video and the channel … I’m new to red dots but have lots of iron sight experience…. I think this video should additionally discuss the lower 1/3 method use it’s logical advantages to finish the technical explanation.
I zero all my Mrs’s independently. But what I found interesting is the high hits on the slaved dot at 25yds. I was always told factory glock sights are a 25yd zero. I would of figured them to be closer
I zero at 50 feet with all of my rds equipped handguns. G 17 with Trijicon type 2, P320 with Romeo 1 and FN 509 tactical with Leupold dp pro. I find that at that distance, the irons sights do end up on the same plane of view. Meaning the dot ends up on the front post. The FN and the Sig have factory installed sights, but the Glock with the rmr irons installed by me.
I know it might be redundant, but any chance you could offer a similar video format/explanation catered to AR/Rifle red dot zeroing and slaving to the irons vs. separate zeroing? I'd be interested to see the results you get with typical carbine distances 50/100/200.
So on my pistols that have red dots, when I check my irons with the red dot turned off they're on target, then I zero my red dot to have it on target not looking at irons at all. However if I try to aim with my irons with the red dot on the red dot is always a little high and to the right of the front sight post I'm fine with it, but I dont understand how I technically have two different points of aim.. how does this work? where am I actually aiming? where the irons say, or where the red dot says? I'm confused but when I shoot strait irons I'm on target and when I shoot pure red dot I'm on target.. can someone explain this to me please?
I’m glad I watched this video. I zeroed my red dot yesterday and I didn’t think it was right that when holding my G19 my dot was up to the left post zero while looking through my irons. It was hitting in a tight group, but I thought it was weird that my dot was far away from my irons. So when I got home, I slaved the dot to my irons. Now after watching, I know it was ok it just happened to be where my dot was zeroed, it was just strange to me and messed with my OCD that my irons and dot were aways apart. Thanks for the video. Time to re zero lmao
Wow. First time I'm seeing this kind of examples. Thanks. my take is after researching is that iron sights and red dots are separate systems. I think this solidifies my belief.
BudLigit88 no, I just wasn’t specific enough in that video. Slaving to the irons is a starting point but I should have expanded on the “fine tuning” I talked about after that. I’ll be putting up a new video on it.
Hope I didn't come across as a smart ass. I love your channel. I like the way you try to educate people and you leave out all the macho bullshit. Thanks!
I'm pretty sure 2 aiming systems on 1 handgun zeroed for 2 different poi may not end well. My red dot will stay on my front sight dot and I'll continue to train with both or only one at at time. Looking over your front sight at the target goes against everything. Why have sights if you're going to complicate them or focus past them?
I hate when people say co witnessing a red dot is center in the red dot on the iron sights. If that's how it worked there would be no point of a red dot. The 2 have nothing to do with each other. Seriously why would you want a red dot if it's just to put over your irons . Sight them in individually, maybe they will line up but for me they usually don't
I"m at a point in my life where these videos reinforce what I already do or already know. However, this was new to me and makes perfect sense. Time for me to start doing this. Thanks Aaron!
Great video on slaving dots to irons. Completely agreed! Same can be said about "absolute co-witness" on rifles but with the added notion that it then just gets distracting with some minute parallax with the dot being somewhat off from the front sight (e.g. cornering drills, awkward shot positinoing, etc.). Plus, why would anyone want to obstruct any amount of field of view when trying to get a sight picture-especially under stress? Yards vs. Meters discussion: I understand you do this for a living as some of us do so you must agree that they're virtually the same, but I don't understand the snark. It's all relative measurements at the end of the day, and we should all be able to do some quick translations as needed. :) I can do measurements in meters without malice. I do prefer the measurement in yards when it comes to range as it's basically "how many steps would it take to walk to the target?" A foot represents one's foot length (albeit larger than most feet and smaller to a few) and a yard represents a casual stride when walking which is three feet. A meter can also be measured with a causal stride, but I do my measurement in yards as I count my distance with my feet when setting up targets for USPSA, IDPA, and general action training scenarios (including pre-con scenarios that use oddly numbered feet for distance e.g. 20 feet). By the way for those who don't practice this, I recommend my quick maths of yardsmeters: it's about 1 less meter for every 10 yards and about 1 more yard for every 10 meters. It's not perfect but pretty close, and it's pretty easy to tell anyone who prefers to hear things in meters and vice-versa. Has there ever been someone who says "Are you sure? That looks more like 24.5 meters."? ;)
Thanks! This video was a very informative and to my mind presented good logical reasoning and evidence. Reading through the comments and replies was also quite helpful, especially the USCCA stats on percentages of shooting at various ranges (with the vast majority in the 9-15 ft range).
Interesting, I hadn't thought of this. I did use my irons to give me a quick zero, but it makes sense to give the dot a proper zero. I'd rather be slightly low at 3y than high at 25y. I guess a good way to think about it is that It's not designed to be an absolute cowitness as much as it is just being able to use them as a backup.
i dont get it though, because i zero my dot independently and when i shoot 10 yards its on the dot, but at 25 yards its still looks like its shooting higher, like i have to aim my dot at the bottom of my paper for it to hit the middle. on top of that when i look at my dot and bring it down to my iron sights, the dot meets exactly at the tip of my iron sight when its leveled? how do u zero independently? u just stand there and and with the dot in the middle of hte window and on the target right? (thats what ive been doing.
@@sarge4826your link .... that vid says sight to iron, "like a lollipop"... this vid says don't and shows the dot way above the sights... I'm confused..
@@45s262 basically his point in this new video is to make sure the dot is zeroed independently. Drop the dot onto the iron sights to get it close, but don't leave it there. Fine tune it by sighting in the dot independent of the iron sights. One of the advantages of having the dot is being able to sight it exactly where you want it, specific to your carry ammo, whereas with iron sights, typically the most you can do is drift your rear sight.
I wanted to add a red dot to my all-time favorite CZ 9, and sent it to Cajun Gun Works for an optical cut and the placement of long iron back-up sights. They did an excellent job and bore tested the red dot and iron sights. For CZ's, they're the man.
Before you said you have to zero your red dot with your carry ammo. Do you have to train with it as well? Its over a $1 a round for premium JHP 9mm. Its really gonna add up. Can I train with FMJ?
Hi. Please help me because I’m a little confused. If the red dot is higher then the front iron sight and the red dot gos out will the Gun still be accurate with just iron sights? Or will it be off center? I shoot IDPA. Thanks
Very helpful video, thank you. Wish I'd seen it before I sighted in my Sig P226 with the Romeo sight. I finally figured out on my own to just ignore the iron sights and shoot the dot.
I was taught to slave it by a very popular firearms instructor. Regardless and to your point I want to now do this and see if I can produce the same results. I do have one question though. When I point with my Glock 19/17 using traditional sights I always point high and have to correct. But with the dot it's there regardless so taking this thought process if it's sighted independently then given my proficiency with the trigger press if the dots on it I should hit it...right?
NeraskaPrepper70 if your dot is zeroed and it’s aligned to the desired point of impact, if you can see it, you will get the hit you want. Fundamentals required, of course.
I feel dumb for asking but is there anyway u could go more into this?? Like for newbies to optics. So, I have a h&k tactical so my sights are suppressor hight. I plan on getting an optic. U r saying to just zero the dot alone and not to the iron sights correct? Or is it more of I shouldnt have iron suppressor sights period if I want an optic?? Thank you.
Just stumbled on this video... So, a late question: If the iron sights were zeroed for 25-yards, and the red dot were zeroed independently at 25-yards, shouldn't the red dot be "lollipop" on the front sight post?
Not necessarily. The point of this video is to point out raised sights can cause a problem if you co-witness, however, if you have something like a Hellcat or XD-S which is designed to co-witness with the optic, you'll notice that the dot will be on the front post when the iron sights are aligned, but, if you move the dot up in the sight picture you'll see that the front post will also move up and out of alignment of the rear. If you ignore the optic for now and think about it, with the front sight high the shot will go high, which is where the dot now is, and indicating where the shot will land. So, it will be "lollipop" if the iron sights are also aligned, but will also shoot where the dot is when it's not.
OK Aaron I was totally confused on this because wherever your iron sights are aiming if they are correct to the gun that's where the bullet is going to hit no matter where you put your red dot at, but now what you are saying is (compressor height ) sights that's where the trick is and I think that confuses a lot of people if you've got compressor height height sights on your gun that changes all that ,,,But if you make your point at AiM off your factory iron sights that will be correct for your red dot out to about 20 or 25 yd and then you'll have to compensate for it. If you shoot uspsa matches most shots under 15 20 yards outside of that I shoot at a 6 o'clock point point of aim on a 8 inch plate at 20 to 25 yards to hit center. Please clarify if iam not correctly understanding this Thanks for your great instruction .
Ok, you answered my questions perfectly, especially since the information I got from an instructor was to co witness to the iron sights. As you said, it’s a visual overload, and eliminates the optic as a better option. So, how do I correctly zero the optic?
Use a steady resting position to take all shooter-caused error out of the picture. Set a target up at 10 yards first, and shoot a 5 shot group, aiming at a precise point on the target. Observe the difference in your point of aim vs the average point of impact from the shot group, and adjust your red dot accordingly. Once you have it relatively zeroed at 10 yards, push the target back to 25 yards and make your final zero adjustments. Obviously you could skip the 10 yards shooting and do all of this at 25 yards, but I find making the major adjustments on a closer target ends up using less ammo over all.
This is a height over bore issue between the two sighting systems. Suppressor height sights are not truely co-witnessed with the optical center of the dot. This can be true on a carbine rifle with properly aligned iron and red dot sighting systems. It is a simple trig problem at the end of the day. Aaron is correct in that you should zero the optic independently from your irons. Using a gross alignment between the two systems from the beginning will help you get on paper assuming your irons hit well. After that, refine your dot zero to your distance of choice to take full advantage of the dot system. Same thing we do with rifles and magnified optics. Zeroing at the farthest distance will yield the best results. Red dot sights are only parallax free near the optical center. The farther off axis you take the dot the more error is introduced. While this error is small and most times within the capability of the weapon system, ammo, and shooter it still exists. All red dot sights have parallax to some degree when the dot is near the edge of the clear aperture. That pesky thing called physics.
I thought the point of cowitnessing the sights and dot was for a couple different reasons. To punch out as if you are picking up the irons, and when the dot comes into view, ignore the clutter and place the dot on the target and focus on the target. The other reason was for when you punch out for the irons and the dot isn't there for whatever reasons, you are still on the irons. Maybe I was given bogus info. Should I not be punching out for irons and picking up the dot on the way?
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solid points as always
Every single video, Aaron drops a knowledge bomb and I learn something.
Slaving the red dot to the irons is a fine way to get the optic zeroing started. Then move it accordingly based on your preferred zero distance. All my RDS pistols have suppressor height sights, then I drop the dot slightly above half way of the sight. That gives me a pretty accurate 25yd zero.
I just zeroed my red dot to my 509t with suppressor height sights and the red dot is like on it like where the front post dot is , I think I did it wrong, since you mentions you had suppressor height sights that's why I'm asking
It’s been some years but I just got my first red dot. You are saying to split the dot with my front post correct?
@@jonathanaldana4941 on suppressor height sights will give you a pretty accurate 25 yard zero right about middle of the front sight post. If you are using standard height I’d slave to the top or the dot on the sight post. You can fine tune from there, but I’ve found it’s the fastest way to get in the A zone and nit burn trough a bunch of ammo. I almost every of my semi pistols have dots and it works for me!
And this is exactly why I love your channel. As a new shooter, this is valuable information. I’m getting an rmr soon and am gonna be taking a class to learn how to properly use it, but videos like this seriously help my confidence especially since I’m legally blind without my glasses. God forbid I get them knocked off I can barely see the front sight but I CAN see ared dot. It’d be nice if you did a video on why a red dot is floating as opposed to just say painting a cross hair on the rmr glass (aka those old non magnifying Soviet scopes). Thank you so much for the informative video I had no idea why the dot shouldn’t be ON the front sight... keep up the awesome work!
You are spot on. The only area we differ is in yardage to zero. Since self defense is the overriding issue in using a handgun, and with most shooting events happening within 7 yards, I recommend red dot zero be at 10 yards with a full understanding of POA modification with red dot to achieve a POI at distances greater than 10 but equal to or less than 25 yards.
Yeah no. 25 yard zero will hit about 2 inches low at 7 yards, which is negligible. You don't need exact point of aim point of impact at close range. Much better to be able to hit long range shots without putting much thought into it AND being able to hit with more than sufficient accuracy at close range.
@@Boogaloogian Great Point 💯💯💯
Went to the range yesterday did some "slaving".
Now i gotta go back...
Slaving the red dot to the irons is a good way to bore sight to get on paper faster with less rounds. After that, zero it to the range you choose.
Exactly
I thought that was reasonably obvious. I find it a little strange that anyone would think otherwise.
130shooter1, if you disagree with what this video advocates, can you explain or provide a source that explains why slaving to the sights is better? I'm trying to do my homework and would appreciate it.
Thank you.
@@LaRemnant I don't disagree with him. Slaving the red dot to the irons is a good *starting point*. Just place the red dot so that it hovers just above your front sight. that'll get you on/ close to target. then zero the dot to the range of your choosing.
But they do.
After 7 years of ccw I’m making the jump to the dot. I needed this video to spur my thinking in solving the irons question for my first set up to put through its paces before carrying it. Thank you.
I just made the jump. It's really weird so far trying not to focus on the irons.
I just zeroed my first RMR on Monday. Glad I did it the right way, although I did zero it for 15 instead of 25 yards. As always Aaron, thanks for another great knowledge filled video!
Aaron, there is no doubt that being a firearms instructor is your calling man. I would venture to say that you are the most knowledgeable and well spoken instructor that I have ever come across. I really wish that I lived closer so that I could take one or more of your courses. Thanks for putting in the time to help people like myself.
Facts. This dude has me and many so much. He's underappreciated.
Today you have went from just "Subscribed" to now "Subscribed and Notified". This is one of the FEW channels that I watch, and listen to when it comes to firearm stuff. Thanks again!
IF you have zeroed your irons to the gun already, then slaving the dot to them is a great place to start. I don’t care if we’re talking rifle, pistol, absolute cowitness, lower 1/3 cowitness, etc. You can even do it in reverse if you’ve zeroed your dot and are putting iron sights on for some reason. However, it’s important to note that it should be viewed the same as an initial boresight. It still needs to be zeroed at the appropriate distance. I will say that with something like a rifle where you have an absolute cowitness through an aperture, I’ve found slaving to require no adjustment. Conversely, both handgun red dots and lower 1/3 cowitness put the dot off center which also results in more parallax shift. Still, slaving is something I consider to be on par with boresighting and must be confirmed or fine tuned to the zero distance of choice.
I learned about pistol RDS from Suarez International back in 2010 and have had a Glock 26/JPoint and a 19/RMR since 2011. I'm sure you are familiar with their doctrine, which is almost exactly opposite yours. Maybe one of the problems is that people don't zero their irons for a specific range, and just run with what came out of the box. I change front heights or file them down until I have the zero I want. The dot on my pistols happens to just sit on top of my front when I line up the irons. From the SI site:
"The use of co-witnessed iron sights is a crucial factor in the usability of the red dot on a pistol (sighted at the same point as the red dot). With the traditional placement of the iron sights, sights that the eye has been trained to seek through countless draws in the past, the eye will go to the irons initially as they have always done in the past. The instant the iron sights are picked up, BAM, there is the red dot, and the eye can let go of the irons and use the red dot...ignoring the irons for any further use.
The "visual hand-off" takes place and becomes automatic. The irons serve as "runway lights" or visual anchors to get the eye where it needs to be to pick up the red dot. There are no shortcuts...there is one proven way to operate a red dot system on a handgun."
It shortens the learning curve and takes less time to acquire the dot once you have trained it.
This way has always worked for me and hundreds of others.
That method is visually confusing and allows for far more parallax in the zero. It works, but it can’t work as well. The method I teach results in a shorter learning curve.
I just got my first dot today. Was looking for information on the best way to zero. First video I watched slaved it to the front sight. So glad I kept looking. Thank you for putting this up 🤘
I think the best way to say it and maybe the title of the video shoulda been "Let the dot speak for itself". The dot sitting a top the front sight clutters the sight picture up for most people to the point it makes it difficult to be precise with aiming and that shows up farther and farther away you go. When you press the gun out to the target and your sight picture is the dot all by itself on the target with the irons down below it, it makes for more precise aiming no matter the size of the dot and it's also going to speed most shooters up because of the less cluttered sight pic. Love the videos Aaron.
Thank you for taking the time to discuss this. "Old Dogs, New Tricks" Sometimes we are slow to learn.
I am missing something. With the dot slaved, shot impact increased vertically as distance increased. With the dot independently zeroed the shot effectively stacked on top of each other.
If the red dot was placed on the aiming dot at each yardage for both tests why is there a vertical increase? Instead of a stacked group somewhere above the aiming dot for the slaved dot test?
Or is there truly that much elevation shift when slaved, given the bullet drop is an estimated inch at 25 yards?
Thank you for addressing this. Something I read all the time out there that folks just have to have these super tall sights to co-witness the dot. Never made sense to me. Just zero the dot, and as long as I can see the irons, it's all good. They are back up, and if they are neatly tucked away at 1/3 or even 1/4 of the lower window, I'm a happy camper. No need to make it any more complicated.
*Realizes his red dot is slaved to his iron sights*
"Please halp...."
Yeah spends ten minutes telling you what’s wrong and don’t tell you how he sighted it in at 25
@@NTurman hm?
Nic Turman he has a video on that.
Underground Railroad?
Don't axe me to slave again..
Definitely works... With my 509 tactical zeroed at 25yds I shot 3 shots at 3 and 7 yards and 5 shots at 15 and 25 yards put all 16 shots inside of 2.5".
Appreciate the education, just started with RMR and was looking for information to help me be knowledgeable about how to use it. Great video on this.
I used to get into arguments over this very subject ALL THE TIME! Now, whenever the subject comes up it's as simple as linking this wonderful video!
Thank you.
There's almost no other videos on the topic of using red dots that mentions that "co-witness" on a pistol actually refers to a lower 1/3 or lower 1/4 view of the iron sights in the optic window, not absolute co-witness or "slaved", like you said, where the iron sights and red dot are all aligned into a single sight picture.
I got pretty frustrated having to do so much searching to find this simple but necessary information.
Instant sub.
Thanks again man, very much appreciated.
Thank you. I just bought the RMR and went to the shooting range for help. They insisted that I have to do the slaving even though in the manual instructions it says no need to co-witness.
I rewatched this vid after 2 years and I gotta say that this video and you, Mr. Cowan, more than any other human have radically improved my pistol shooting and my meliorated (look it up) my enjoyment of pistol shooting geometrically. Dude, It's a major item on my retirement budget now!
You are the bomb Aaron. Always love your segments because you’re not just talking BS you give the proof. Keep up the great work.
why should the poa/poi change with suppressor height? its the relative height between the sets of sights that determines the poa/poi. my original sights were made for a 15 yard zero, as were my suppressor height sights. i set the red dot just above the sights, not co-witnessed.
Thank you for putting this together. My takeaway is (1) try a 25 meter zero; and (2) don’t slave to the iron sights. I have been shooting for decades, and work part time as an RSO at our local outdoor range. It seemed like the time to learn about red dots. I’m dedicating one firearm to red dot aiming. Using one of my HK VP9s but this time with a longer Match barrel and equipped with an Aimpoint ACRO P2, with suppressor height sights. I’m sure that you have saved me a great deal of time. As an RSO I am frequently asked from newer shooters how to do pretty much everything so I felt it was time to get a red dot and become familiar with them. Thanks again for a logical explanation that I will pass on. Having a myriad of gear to do this with, it is clearly better just to go to those who do this for a living! Before looking at your video I assumed that all I would have to do was stick my Laserlyte boresight tool in my muzzle, adjust my Omega red laser (rail mounted) to the boresight tool, and finally, align the Acro to co-witness all those red laser dots. And somewhere in that process, see where the taller iron sight lines up with this! One suggestion to cat owners: Try this without a cat in the room. She will just be a distraction as I try to align all those red dots!!
That trick of Slaving the dot to the irons is only to get you a good starting point to zero from, even with aim points on m4s we just did that to basically boresight the optic, saves on ammo to start, I did the same on my pistol RDS and it started off pretty close then made small adjustments to get actual zero
Everytime I make adjustments to my rds to rise the red dot my shot placement lowers when I lollipop the red dot I get my poa/poi. I'm trying to understand how rising the red dot would give you POA/POI. without using holds, becasue of height over bore.
I just got my red dot and I all videos i watch were about you have to zero your red do t to your sight till I saw this video and man you make sense thank you for making this video
Thanks for this!! Last night I zeroed three weapons with a bore laser, green laser, and iron sights. Back to the drawing board. Wife and I are going to have to agree on a convention for where all of our weapons are zeroed. Appreciated your point of view... not to be confused with point of impact or point of aim. [chuckle] Sorry, couldn't help it.
Great info; this is what I have been looking for in individual red dot zero
I have been searching and searching for a video just like this for WEEKS! I REALLY appreciate the sight picture visuals for zeroing the red dot. Love your videos man
Thanks for this video. Just received my RMR yesterday so it’s not yet installed. I’ve been watching several videos and digesting the information. For the life of me I couldn’t wrap my head around co-witnessing to the iron sights. Thanks for confirming my thoughts and putting my mind at ease. Great video!
As someone who will be buying their first RMR within the next month (tax returns baby), I'm curious how you feel about zeroing your dot to the irons as a method of "bore sighting". To then go to the range and then zero the red dot independently, only using the irons as a sort of starting point
I did this, and ended up clicking back the other way to probably right about where it was when I started. I’d shoot a good 3-5 shot group before did anything. You might be closer than you would be slaved to the front sight.
When I zeroed my red dots on multiple pistols I mounted the sight made a shot then adjusted as needed.
Along with the excellent information presented in this video that I have gleaned, I have a new found desire to obtain a metric 25M tape measure.
You can slave your red dot to the iron sights only if your red dot has absolutely zero parallax. The only such commercial pistol red dot I know is the Acro Aimpoint, one I would say is not the best for self defense since it’s very bulky.
All other ones, single lens and far more slim, will present a tiny bit of parallax. This parallax will come noticeable at larger distances since the position of your eyes relatively to the gun when shooting with a red dot is slightly upward than when using iron sights.
This means that, if your “freeze” the gun while aiming with iron sights, while you raise your head the slaved dot will slightly move down because of the parallax.
Then you lean towards raising the muzzle to correct the dot movement and focus the target, and this is why the POI is a bit higher at longer distances.
I'm still confused. I think I zeroed properly, when I have the dot in the center of the glass, my irons aren't aligned. The front sight is higher than the rear. I was roughly 1.2 inches low at 10 yards so I went 12 clicks up with my rmr. Seems like now they're zeroed at 10 which is very close to my irons. Maybe a 25 yard zero would separate them more? When I align the sights they end up about where a circle would be on the far sight if they weren't flat and blacked out. 509 MRD midsize. They go for cowitness suppressor height sights so maybe that's why
Best video I’ve seen on the topic of zeroing the red dot. Nobody else I’ve seen explained it this well
I have to explain the proper way, the way you are describing, every time I go to the range with my Army unit. All of the 1SGT's get real loud about just slap the CCO on the M4 and put the dot on the front sight and you'll be good to go. Thats a good way to get close on paper zero distance but you lose the advantage of the red dot just the same as the pistol setup you have.
I had the same problem with my chain when Aimpoint showed up. I shot red dots in the 90's and when they issued us M4's and Aimpoints in the 00's, I zeroed the optic, to their dismay. They really don't understand the advantages they are giving up by "just put the dot on the post". I did try it their way once. It sucked. And I sucked with it.
Any method to get on paper is a good thing to do (at first) , but (IMO) the optic should be zeroed at the distance you desire, regardless of weapon/aiming system. Anything shy of that is a compromise and I imagine many times that compromise wasn't necessary.
I have my guys zero iron sites first.
Then, to get on paper, they absolute cowitness the dot to the front site. From there, zero the site normally. You should end up with a lower 1/3 cowitness.
All should be done using 36 rounds total.
It's the only way for me to get mass people through with both irons and red dot zeroed properly.
@@theimmortal4718 Thank you for doing it that way. Makes sense.
@@theimmortal4718 I deal with people who touch guns once a year and only to qualify. Some spend the entire day on the zero range and the people in charge just let them shoot all day long wasting ammo.
Literally my favorite channel. Thanks for always giving good information. Really appreciate the knowledge transfer you provide!
Another concise and detailed explanation of the topic with the usual "and here's why" that Aaron always provides!
Great information brother, thanks. Man theres a freaking fatwood forest were the video is being shot..AWESOME.
Glad this video was recommended, because your other video suggested slaving the rmr to the irons!!
One could also argue that your grouping at 25 meters/yards/yarters/metards slaved was so off because of bias against doing something you have a position against. I must admit that the results are still visible and are more than likely statistically significant. Thank you for the lesson.
That boas was developed from watching it happen hundreds of times.
@@SageDynamics I have too. There is always four or five people who zero their irons at 25m, then bring their red dot to the irons and wonder why they can't shoot the targets past 150m.
Heck, Pvt Rickner did it back in 2011 in order to not look like I couldn't shoot, the "Hey, look at me, first one zeroed..." Mentality. End result; I couldn't shoot. I only ever used irons because I knew my dot wouldn't hit it.
Back then, i watched someone sit on a lane dialing their irons to center mass, then take that same weapon and dial the dot in. It probably took him twenty shots total, but I remember asking, "why doesn't he just put the dot in line with the irons and call it a day." He gave me your same lesson just about a decade before this video.
My intent was to discount confirmation bias from the results, as opposed to discounting you.
I apologise if you got the impression that I was trying to invalidate your stance on the matter.
I had an argument about this with someone recently. I’m saving this video. Nice presentation!
Thanks I was wandering how you sighted in the red dot, I just got one. Great info.
Which i had seen this video weeks ago. So much wrong info on youtube. Thanks man, you changed my shooting for the better.
I've watched this video twice and I still have the same question: Why does this happen? At 2:45 you have a graphic labeled "DOT ZEROED INDEPENDENT OF IRONS (CORRECT)" however in that graphic the irons are pointed at the bottom of the backstop, while the dot is pointed at nearly the top. I'm assuming that's just a dramatization of the difference, but I'd love to know if it's not. When I aim the iron sights at something, I expect it to hit (assuming I know the holds) so I'm wondering why this isn't the case when I add a red dot to the exact same sight picture.
When I zeroed my optic, I aimed at something about 50yds away with my irons, then put the dot where I expected the shot to go. I'm going to do some more testing tomorrow now that I saw this video, but I still don't exactly see what's wrong with that.
You can ignore the irons in that graphic.
Still a bit of confusion. I zeroed red dot at 25 yds as my suppressor ht sites hadn't come in yet 2 of 3 pistols w/RD's. When I do line up my iron sites the red dot sits center but a touch low on my sites of my EDC. But for all tense and purposes the red dot sits on my front post if I line up the irons correctly. This is actually how all three of my pistols with red dots are, despite me zeroing the red dot, and not having high iron sites at the time I zeroed the RD . My confusion is if my iron sites are on at 25 yards how would the dot not line up with the irons? I use the full window and center the dot top to bottom side to side when I shoot with the RD. If I do focus on and line up my irons the dot is right there on the front post. How can it not be? Sincere question not trying to be a wise acre. Thank you
For the average adult at full presentation, the front sight post is going to be 12-16 MOA in size depending on which irons you use. No one makes an RDS that large. Consider that 2-6 is the most common range of dot sizes. That means your RDS may very well appear on the front post when you align the irons but it’s somewhere in that 12-16 MOA size, not actually the same POA/POI. If you just slave the dot and call it zero, it can be off considerably as the irons allow for a much more vague zero.
@@SageDynamics ok thank you sir, Yeah makes sense. I use a Sig X-ray. With 3MOA R1P. On both my P226 and p320 axg.
@@SageDynamics also, wanted to say the white papers on the RDS... NICE!!! Learned a lot that I'm applying to my training. Even passed on to my firearms instructor and he took away good knowledge. Thank you for all that hard work you shared.
dude, your videos are so helpful and make so much sense.!!
Yeah, this definitely clears up what I was struggling with. Thanks!
I think the problem with slaving to the irons is the way you’re saying to do it (and probably the way a lot of people do it) you shouldn’t be putting the dot right on top of the FSP. The way I zero (slave) is perfect iron sight picture, get the dot centered to the FSP, and then center it to the middle of the window while making sure my iron sight picture hasn’t changed (accounting for parallax).
Well dang... I was about to post a video on this same topic... Lol I guess I'll wait
Lol!!!
Dont wait do it!
@@alfaropits haha
@@TacticalToolbox watch all ur vids, and whatever their over always entertaining. And throw in good tips on zeroing too lol!
@@alfaropits thank you brother... I'll definitely still publish it
Thank you. I just received my slide back from being milled for a lower 1/3 height. I noticed that I ran out of adjustment on my RMR trying to get the dot down to the level of my stock front sight post. After listening to your video I now realize the error of my ways.
I like this video and the channel … I’m new to red dots but have lots of iron sight experience…. I think this video should additionally discuss the lower 1/3 method use it’s logical advantages to finish the technical explanation.
I zero all my Mrs’s independently. But what I found interesting is the high hits on the slaved dot at 25yds. I was always told factory glock sights are a 25yd zero. I would of figured them to be closer
I zero at 50 feet with all of my rds equipped handguns. G 17 with Trijicon type 2, P320 with Romeo 1 and FN 509 tactical with Leupold dp pro. I find that at that distance, the irons sights do end up on the same plane of view. Meaning the dot ends up on the front post. The FN and the Sig have factory installed sights, but the Glock with the rmr irons installed by me.
I know it might be redundant, but any chance you could offer a similar video format/explanation catered to AR/Rifle red dot zeroing and slaving to the irons vs. separate zeroing? I'd be interested to see the results you get with typical carbine distances 50/100/200.
This is great information! now I can more easily explain to my customers why not to slave the optic to the irons! Thank you!
So on my pistols that have red dots, when I check my irons with the red dot turned off they're on target, then I zero my red dot to have it on target not looking at irons at all. However if I try to aim with my irons with the red dot on the red dot is always a little high and to the right of the front sight post I'm fine with it, but I dont understand how I technically have two different points of aim.. how does this work? where am I actually aiming? where the irons say, or where the red dot says? I'm confused but when I shoot strait irons I'm on target and when I shoot pure red dot I'm on target.. can someone explain this to me please?
Very interesting analysis. You just made me rethink my setup. Excellent video as usual! 🫡
This was some good info now I'm going to the range this weekend to re zero my dot with carry ammo and not slaved to my iron.
Again, great information presented in a factual, intelligent, and simple yet professional manner. Predictably excellent.
Just great info and great explanations. I do like how you encourage the audience to think. Very well done! Thanks and keep em coming
I’m glad I watched this video. I zeroed my red dot yesterday and I didn’t think it was right that when holding my G19 my dot was up to the left post zero while looking through my irons. It was hitting in a tight group, but I thought it was weird that my dot was far away from my irons. So when I got home, I slaved the dot to my irons. Now after watching, I know it was ok it just happened to be where my dot was zeroed, it was just strange to me and messed with my OCD that my irons and dot were aways apart. Thanks for the video. Time to re zero lmao
I just watched a bunch of other videos on this and you explained it the best. Thank you
Wow. First time I'm seeing this kind of examples. Thanks. my take is after researching is that iron sights and red dots are separate systems. I think this solidifies my belief.
looks like you learned something since the video you published on 11-15-2016. Thanks for sharing what you learned.
BudLigit88 no, I just wasn’t specific enough in that video. Slaving to the irons is a starting point but I should have expanded on the “fine tuning” I talked about after that. I’ll be putting up a new video on it.
Hope I didn't come across as a smart ass. I love your channel. I like the way you try to educate people and you leave out all the macho bullshit. Thanks!
Well I learned something today. Now I need to go independently zero my red dot. Thanks Aaron keep up the videos they’ve taught me a lot.
I'm pretty sure 2 aiming systems on 1 handgun zeroed for 2 different poi may not end well.
My red dot will stay on my front sight dot and I'll continue to train with both or only one at at time. Looking over your front sight at the target goes against everything. Why have sights if you're going to complicate them or focus past them?
@@jacobsvt , understanding the limitations is the key element. It all comes down to training.
I hate when people say co witnessing a red dot is center in the red dot on the iron sights. If that's how it worked there would be no point of a red dot. The 2 have nothing to do with each other. Seriously why would you want a red dot if it's just to put over your irons . Sight them in individually, maybe they will line up but for me they usually don't
I"m at a point in my life where these videos reinforce what I already do or already know. However, this was new to me and makes perfect sense. Time for me to start doing this. Thanks Aaron!
Well done. Concise, factual, informative. Thank you.
Great video on slaving dots to irons. Completely agreed! Same can be said about "absolute co-witness" on rifles but with the added notion that it then just gets distracting with some minute parallax with the dot being somewhat off from the front sight (e.g. cornering drills, awkward shot positinoing, etc.). Plus, why would anyone want to obstruct any amount of field of view when trying to get a sight picture-especially under stress?
Yards vs. Meters discussion: I understand you do this for a living as some of us do so you must agree that they're virtually the same, but I don't understand the snark. It's all relative measurements at the end of the day, and we should all be able to do some quick translations as needed. :)
I can do measurements in meters without malice. I do prefer the measurement in yards when it comes to range as it's basically "how many steps would it take to walk to the target?" A foot represents one's foot length (albeit larger than most feet and smaller to a few) and a yard represents a casual stride when walking which is three feet. A meter can also be measured with a causal stride, but I do my measurement in yards as I count my distance with my feet when setting up targets for USPSA, IDPA, and general action training scenarios (including pre-con scenarios that use oddly numbered feet for distance e.g. 20 feet).
By the way for those who don't practice this, I recommend my quick maths of yardsmeters: it's about 1 less meter for every 10 yards and about 1 more yard for every 10 meters. It's not perfect but pretty close, and it's pretty easy to tell anyone who prefers to hear things in meters and vice-versa. Has there ever been someone who says "Are you sure? That looks more like 24.5 meters."? ;)
Thanks! This video was a very informative and to my mind presented good logical reasoning and evidence. Reading through the comments and replies was also quite helpful, especially the USCCA stats on percentages of shooting at various ranges (with the vast majority in the 9-15 ft range).
Interesting, I hadn't thought of this. I did use my irons to give me a quick zero, but it makes sense to give the dot a proper zero. I'd rather be slightly low at 3y than high at 25y.
I guess a good way to think about it is that It's not designed to be an absolute cowitness as much as it is just being able to use them as a backup.
Being new to red dots this information has been extremely helpful. Thank you
i dont get it though, because i zero my dot independently and when i shoot 10 yards its on the dot, but at 25 yards its still looks like its shooting higher, like i have to aim my dot at the bottom of my paper for it to hit the middle.
on top of that when i look at my dot and bring it down to my iron sights, the dot meets exactly at the tip of my iron sight when its leveled?
how do u zero independently? u just stand there and and with the dot in the middle of hte window and on the target right? (thats what ive been doing.
Thinking about this eventually, how do you zero a red dot on a hand gun. Seems difficult.
bump
ruclips.net/video/SOm1262nG18/видео.html
@@sarge4826your link .... that vid says sight to iron, "like a lollipop"... this vid says don't and shows the dot way above the sights... I'm confused..
@@45s262 basically his point in this new video is to make sure the dot is zeroed independently. Drop the dot onto the iron sights to get it close, but don't leave it there. Fine tune it by sighting in the dot independent of the iron sights. One of the advantages of having the dot is being able to sight it exactly where you want it, specific to your carry ammo, whereas with iron sights, typically the most you can do is drift your rear sight.
Thank you Aaron. Your videos mean a great deal to a lot of people.
I’m adhd and listening to some people explain things I can’t stay focused. I completely understand what is being explained and now I really get it.
I wanted to add a red dot to my all-time favorite CZ 9, and sent it to Cajun Gun Works for an optical cut and the placement of long iron back-up sights. They did an excellent job and bore tested the red dot and iron sights. For CZ's, they're the man.
Another great video. I'd been zeroing my dot to 10 yards. 25 seems to make sense. Thanks!
Before you said you have to zero your red dot with your carry ammo. Do you have to train with it as well? Its over a $1 a round for premium JHP 9mm. Its really gonna add up. Can I train with FMJ?
Hi. Please help me because I’m a little confused. If the red dot is higher then the front iron sight and the red dot gos out will the Gun still be accurate with just iron sights? Or will it be off center? I shoot IDPA. Thanks
Very helpful video, thank you. Wish I'd seen it before I sighted in my Sig P226 with the Romeo sight. I finally figured out on my own to just ignore the iron sights and shoot the dot.
I was taught to slave it by a very popular firearms instructor. Regardless and to your point I want to now do this and see if I can produce the same results.
I do have one question though. When I point with my Glock 19/17 using traditional sights I always point high and have to correct. But with the dot it's there regardless so taking this thought process if it's sighted independently then given my proficiency with the trigger press if the dots on it I should hit it...right?
NeraskaPrepper70 if your dot is zeroed and it’s aligned to the desired point of impact, if you can see it, you will get the hit you want. Fundamentals required, of course.
I feel dumb for asking but is there anyway u could go more into this?? Like for newbies to optics. So, I have a h&k tactical so my sights are suppressor hight. I plan on getting an optic. U r saying to just zero the dot alone and not to the iron sights correct? Or is it more of I shouldnt have iron suppressor sights period if I want an optic?? Thank you.
Just stumbled on this video... So, a late question: If the iron sights were zeroed for 25-yards, and the red dot were zeroed independently at 25-yards, shouldn't the red dot be "lollipop" on the front sight post?
Perhaps if viewed with iron sight alignment. But that’s not how a red dot is used.
Not necessarily. The point of this video is to point out raised sights can cause a problem if you co-witness, however, if you have something like a Hellcat or XD-S which is designed to co-witness with the optic, you'll notice that the dot will be on the front post when the iron sights are aligned, but, if you move the dot up in the sight picture you'll see that the front post will also move up and out of alignment of the rear. If you ignore the optic for now and think about it, with the front sight high the shot will go high, which is where the dot now is, and indicating where the shot will land. So, it will be "lollipop" if the iron sights are also aligned, but will also shoot where the dot is when it's not.
Excellent lesson man. I
really appreciate you going over this. It makes so much sense.
OK Aaron I was totally confused on this because wherever your iron sights are aiming if they are correct to the gun that's where the bullet is going to hit no matter where you put your red dot at, but now what you are saying is (compressor height ) sights that's where the trick is and I think that confuses a lot of people if you've got compressor height height sights on your gun that changes all that ,,,But if you make your point at AiM off your factory iron sights that will be correct for your red dot out to about 20 or 25 yd and then you'll have to compensate for it. If you shoot uspsa matches most shots under 15 20 yards outside of that I shoot at a 6 o'clock point point of aim on a 8 inch plate at 20 to 25 yards to hit center. Please clarify if iam not correctly understanding this
Thanks for your great instruction .
Holy crap man, thank you, thank you, thank you. I’ll be zeroing my rmr based off this, this weekend. 🤙🏾
Ok, you answered my questions perfectly, especially since the information I got from an instructor was to co witness to the iron sights. As you said, it’s a visual overload, and eliminates the optic as a better option. So, how do I correctly zero the optic?
Use a steady resting position to take all shooter-caused error out of the picture. Set a target up at 10 yards first, and shoot a 5 shot group, aiming at a precise point on the target. Observe the difference in your point of aim vs the average point of impact from the shot group, and adjust your red dot accordingly. Once you have it relatively zeroed at 10 yards, push the target back to 25 yards and make your final zero adjustments. Obviously you could skip the 10 yards shooting and do all of this at 25 yards, but I find making the major adjustments on a closer target ends up using less ammo over all.
My friend thank you for sharing such great information. I recently ordered a red dot and will be setting it up exactly how you said! Thank you again!
This is a height over bore issue between the two sighting systems. Suppressor height sights are not truely co-witnessed with the optical center of the dot. This can be true on a carbine rifle with properly aligned iron and red dot sighting systems. It is a simple trig problem at the end of the day. Aaron is correct in that you should zero the optic independently from your irons. Using a gross alignment between the two systems from the beginning will help you get on paper assuming your irons hit well. After that, refine your dot zero to your distance of choice to take full advantage of the dot system. Same thing we do with rifles and magnified optics. Zeroing at the farthest distance will yield the best results. Red dot sights are only parallax free near the optical center. The farther off axis you take the dot the more error is introduced. While this error is small and most times within the capability of the weapon system, ammo, and shooter it still exists. All red dot sights have parallax to some degree when the dot is near the edge of the clear aperture. That pesky thing called physics.
I thought the point of cowitnessing the sights and dot was for a couple different reasons. To punch out as if you are picking up the irons, and when the dot comes into view, ignore the clutter and place the dot on the target and focus on the target. The other reason was for when you punch out for the irons and the dot isn't there for whatever reasons, you are still on the irons.
Maybe I was given bogus info.
Should I not be punching out for irons and picking up the dot on the way?
Learning has occurred. Thank you sir.
Going to zero my P 365X with the romeo zero. You have answered this perfectly.