Tactile Feedback From Vertical Actuators - D-BOX, PT Actuator, Etc.
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 3 май 2022
- Discussing tactile feedback from vertical actuators from the likes of D-BOX and PT Actuator.
𝐃𝐈𝐒𝐂𝐎𝐔𝐍𝐓 𝐂𝐎𝐃𝐄𝐒 + 𝐀𝐅𝐅𝐈𝐋𝐈𝐀𝐓𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒
𝐅𝐚𝐧𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐜 - www.fanatec.com/?F...
𝐆𝐓 𝐎𝐦𝐞𝐠𝐚 - Discount Code KG5 www.gtomega.com/discount/GTO5...
𝐒𝐢𝐦 𝐋𝐚𝐛𝐬 - simlab.prf.hn/click/camref:10...
𝐒𝐢𝐦 𝐇𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐝 - simhound.com?sca_ref=889677.vccWmOR5Mo
𝐒𝐢𝐦 𝐑𝐚𝐜𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐒𝐭𝐮𝐝𝐢𝐨 - www.simracingstudio.com/?ref=...
𝐁𝐮𝐭𝐭𝐊𝐢𝐜𝐤𝐞𝐫 - thebuttkicker.com?aff=49
𝐏𝐢𝐦𝐚𝐱 - 𝐂𝐨𝐝𝐞 𝐊𝐆𝟐𝟎 - pimax.com/?ref=vr9j2b9qez
𝐕𝐑 𝐖𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐏𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐜𝐫𝐢𝐩𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐌𝐚𝐠𝐧𝐞𝐭𝐢𝐜 𝐋𝐞𝐧𝐬𝐞𝐬 - Discount Code "Karl" www.vr-wave.store/?aff=2
𝐑𝐚𝐜𝐞 @ 𝐇𝐨𝐦𝐞 - 𝗟𝗼𝘄 𝗥𝗶𝗱𝗲𝗿, 𝗣𝗧 𝗔𝗰𝘁𝘂𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿, 𝗠𝗲𝗰𝗮, 𝗬𝗮𝘄 - www.raceathome.co.uk/
𝐀𝐦𝐚𝐳𝐨𝐧 - amzn.to/3j7Jv3U
𝐞𝐁𝐚𝐲 - ebay.us/wYCavP
As an eBay Partner, I may be compensated if you make a purchase.
𝐏𝐚𝐭𝐫𝐞𝐨𝐧 𝐒𝐮𝐩𝐩𝐨𝐫𝐭! / karlgosling
𝐎𝐧𝐞-𝐨𝐟𝐟 𝐝𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐬! www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr... 
Игры
It's my wallet that takes all of these lumps and bumps :)
lol 100% mate!
This comment deserves more love lol
Great video thanks 👍Tactile feedback is my next purchase and I really need the advice to make sure I don't bugger it up - thanks again fella 😊
Im finding the same after installing the Rs-Mega+ kit to my rig. 150mm (6inches) of travel on each corner. I also havw four transducers and now i just leave them on for engine rumble and wheel slip... Probably even turn off wheel slip soon. I am keeping them on since they work great with Sim hub and sometimes i like to race with just the transducers. Love the channel Karl!
I've heard of the RS having emi issues. Have you had that? And how did you solve it?
I find that if you are running a DOF Reality Motion set up the addition of transducers is really beneficial. As you know, DOF Reality gives to a ton of movement but lacks the finer details. If you try and tune to get all the finer detail you end up overdoing the motion. Adding transducers also give you the option to turn down/ turn off certain functions such as curbing which avoids some of the overlap caused by trying to replicate conflicting movement such as curbing (rapid up down) while on a long steep incline (nose fully pitched up).
Yeah DOFR doesn't use vertical actuators in the same way as PT or DBOX and they are much weaker too.
Nice video! Had me thinking with all the gear you've come into contact with it would be ace to do a "Complete rig for under £500 / £1000 / £2000 / £4000 / £8000" series fo videos to encampsulate where it's best to place your hard earned cash. Nothing to stop each from having an A/B variant based on what your preference is (lap time versus immersion for example).
Great info!
I buzz off this hobby so much it ticks all the boxes of interest for me cars, racing and technology - did my first track day a couple months back and was genuinely shocked how familiar it felt having practised the same car and track combination . I did comparatively well having already learnt the track and the car responded sooo similarly to how it did in the sim - I use a rift S, butt kicker and Fanatec wheel / pedals - worth every penny and all purchased used mostly from eBay . I would love to add motion into the mix and will definitely do it eventually, the costs of all this are a fraction of putting a car on track for real .
Being able to finish work and do a few stints is mind blowing to me, sprinkle in the occasional track day in real life and I can’t think of a cheaper way to enjoy motorsport before investing thousands racing and all of the commitment and additional expense - sorry bit of a ramble not really on topic at all lol -
I agree mate, it's the freedom to "drive" what we want, when we want and anywhere we want that makes the hobby so cool!
Owning and driving a race car is way more expensive than an sim racing. Plus all the work that's involved in maintaining and upgrades. It's unbelievable how much you can spend. Sim racing is a way more cost effective and you can practically race any car you want and on any track in the world! Sim racing is on a whole other level!
This is an expensive hobby, no doubt. Kudos to everyone who enjoys it, regardless of spend, but for those that can find the space, time and money to go "full Gosling", it's bloody amazing.
could you get into detail on which vertical actuarors are better? DBOX vs PT Actuator specifically
fully agree. i have fully self made 6dof rig with self made actuators that use SFU2010 (so 10mm per revolution ballscrew) with the exact same servos that you have on PT actuators and the theoretical spec on my actuator is 500mm/s (and they have 500mm stroke) and you can do virtually anything with them. some sample videos on my chanel for those who wonder how does it look like...🤜
Do the actuators work based off the sound like the transducers do? or are they more accurate working from telemetry data, I notice my transducers do not work as well across different sims, ACC for instance is missing details that AMS2 has.
As I said in the video they replicate 1:1 (within the constraints of physics) what your real world car would be doing using the telemetry stream.
Most people don't know how to do tactile right with Transducers. There is some complexity involved and there are ZERO out of the box solutions that really deliver. I have a D-Box Gen 5 on my rig and I only use a couple of it's Haptic effects. I get MUCH MUCH MUCH better engine effects with transducers. I also like my wheelslip much better with transducers and many other effects. Also for Dirt Rally the landings from jumps just left me hanging with only motion until I added a Transducer based jump landing impact effect to carry the landing home.
To do tactile right you have to isolate your seat and pedal deck from the chassis to allow the transducers to work efficiently. You need solid amplification and you need some serious transducers. Ideally you have DSP's to keep your transducers quiet and to tweak their power points.
So yes the OOB D-Box haptics are better than having no tactile effects, but they don't hold a candle to what a well designed transducer based system can do.
But the reality is that unless you are willing to take the plunge in a substantial way and have some guidance, your results with transducers could be pitiful.
How did you isolate your seat and pedals, if you don't mind me asking? Springs? Looking into doing something similar, but unsure of the optimal way.
@@khaledassaf6356 My current solution a steel seat plate on 4 fairly strong springs between rubber donuts in back. I have an inverted pedal deck using slightly lighter springs and donut setup along with a profile based linear bearing on each side to prevent flex.
I'm getting ready to add a stout linear bearing to each side under the seat plate.
The results from a well designed tactile system really make a virtual car come alive, but they are highly DIY efforts.
I'll be detailing the linear bearing installation on my you tube channel shortly. It's a solution I just designed and need to test.
@@markkovalcson7243 Yeah, thought so. I enjoy DIY, and would say that building the pit is probably as much fun for me as it is to fly/drive.
Looking forward to your video. Should at least give me some idea to work from. Thanks for the detailed reply!
@@khaledassaf6356 You might search for "Good Vibrations Simrig Tactile Haptic motion G-force (history and future)"
There is an order of magnitude difference between moving an inertial mass in a buttkicker (1 lbs. piston) vs. moving the whole rig with driver (400+ lbs). The reverberation is also quite different. That being said buttkickers are very efficient in what they do and more universal at replicating all sounds from games and other sources, cause they are repurposed speakers, in a sense. 👍
I love the whole argument with transducers being superior to an actuator. Absolute bollocks! I even have to filter out some of that fine detail because my rig vibrates and bounces to the point my eyes can't see shit haha.
Haha... I cranked up the engine vibrations in SRS for my actuators rhe other night to see how it feel.... Hahah... Thought I lost a filling after ten seconds.. Hahah.... Those actuators can move!
Karl do you have any idea when you are getting Simgrade Thera pedals for reviewing?
I have a set here, review goes live tonight at 6pm GMT! :)
I use the PT 6 Dof. In my opinion there is not much enough feedback from road surface in Assetto Corsa in a lot of track mods. If I increase heave in the actuators the feeling when getting off the track is way too much. I think the best feedback comes from laserscaned tracks.
That’s the problem with 90% of the track mods for AC. They just aren’t the same as a first party track. I have 4 Buttkickers, SC2 pro and a NLR V3 and none of those things perform as they should on the majority of mod tracks. It’s just a numb feeling.
@@OhItsThat so the question is which laserscaned mod tracks are available like Bathurst or Suzuka?
my only issue with this kind of equipment is without having the tv screens connected to the rig id be moving and the display isnt so my eyes would have to work extra to keep focus on the screen, although for VR a can imagine this being something id like to try for sure. im not into the g force ones as there short bursted so id press the throttle get that inital g force then it would feel like iv come off the trottle, but these for individual wheel feedback over bumps and the bounceiong over jumps i can see that being good for VR espeshly. thanks for sharing
Valid point but generally the motion is not so extreme that you even notice. A motion platform generally starts with the driver centrally located and will always quickly return to that position once the car recovers equilibrium. We use both in the race@home studio but prefer a larger static monitor setup than a smaller mounted screen. We destroyed one Odyssey G9 with motion as it flapped like a bird. Decided that wasenough.
If you're sim is correctly setup the image moves with you... the physical displays do not have to :)
The surge actuator does indeed only give a small burst of acceleration (or you'd go right through your display and out the room! lol) but it's way better than nothing at all :)
@@pt-actuatorukltd1118 arrr ok, i just say this as i seen someones video the other day and he was using vr. i couldnt focus on the video as there was the bumps that wobbled the screen normally thats fine but with his head moving to i really struggled to focus on 1 point. and that was a thought to, attaching a big screen to a moving rig with the rapid movements of the rig isnt something id want to do. so i guess if the movements are slight then maybe it would work with a still screen setup. do you have to use lock to horrizon?
@@KarlGosling what i mean is if theres 2 things in vison thats moving its extremely hard to focus on 1 point, so the screen wobble over bumps if in a still chair this doesnt seen to be a problem as your eyes move with the bumps maybe a slight delay but its unnoticable but if theres another movement added to that my eyes cant antisipate where to look, like in a real car the enviroment doesnt move obviously so if you hit a bump its just your head moving and not the envioment also.
Actually you don’t want the screens to move. The actuators move you relative to the still screens, just like the car moves you in a static world. Then, you adjust the in-game camera/movement settings to align with your physical movement. It is an amazing experience, whether with screens or in VR
I'm the same i have a diy sfx100 with my own 150mm actuator design and no longer run my bass shakers
Yeah there's just no need if they are setup well.
250 mm per second is exactly 0.9 kilometres per hour, so not particularly fast🤔 I've tried the D-Box twice and similar systems and couldn't feel any tactile feedback and my GS-5 is certainly not a replacement as well. Shakers are just a lot faster from the principle and usually even need more power than actuators. If you can't feel a difference, your shaker setup was not efficient if it's from the position of the shakers or the effects. The GS-5 comes with optional holes in the plates to fix each with a small Dayton shaker, probably the weakest on the market. I recently did the upgrade and didn't expect it to be significant because I also use a Buttkicker Concert just under the seat, two inches away from my butt, but I was wrong. The feedback is so intense, I can't feel the difference if the big one is on or off and it's a huge upgrade. So the most dominant feedback always overshadows the lesser effects and shakers 30 cm away from your body are basically useless with a motion rig like yours. People with similar setups usually drill the shakers to the seat and under the pedal plate.
Maybe I'm remembering the figures wrong but they claim fast enough to pull 2G of acceleration which is plenty for replicating the movement of a car chassis on a surface.
Maybe they did not have it setup or tuned correctly, who knows?!
Shakers are producing frequencies of "sound" rather than movement of the chassis like vertical actuators, in a car any and all vibration we feel is literally from movement (mostly vertical) either suspension and tyres or engine movement on it's mounts which varies in direction depending what engine you have (straight 6, V8, boxer, etc.)... transducers simulate movement with sound, vertical actuators replicate it 1:1 using telemetry and within the constraints of physics and their range of motion.
I must be remembering the numbers wrong, flat out they will throw me clear of my seat! lol they wouldn't to that at 0.9kmh!
@@KarlGosling 250 mm/s are 0.9 km/h and enough online-calculators confirming it. Probably the reason why F1-motion-rigs for multi-million dollar use hydraulics. I didn't like the D-Box-systems I've tried because there was too much travel in the setup and I hated the lag and kind of negative lateral g-force you would feel in a real car. Expecially in DR2 I've noticed that actuators are too slow to keep up with the surface if you set them up with too much travel and within a second a real suspension can do more than 250 mm in Rally-racing. Shakers are for vibrations since those are very dominant in race-cars and if there aren't dedicated transducers build in the actuators, it might be not wise to use vibrations and travel with them. They certainly can't do 250 mm/s while vibrating, so this function slows down the travel-capabilities.
@@Leynad778 Yes in some ways GOOD TACTILE can surpass motion immersion.
@@KarlGosling Most motion systems, at least the ones that are not anchored to the ground, limit motion to sub 1G, otherwise the actuators would lift off the ground as they pass 1G or the earths gravitational force. This would prematurely damage the actuators and ballscrews... Specially if once lifted and off the ground, the actuators come back down at opposite speed and hitting the floor at over their designed G limit. ;-)
I have my rig upstairs and would never be allowed this level of noise through vibration/movement that these give off. I do wonder how much it would add for GT racing though.
Thats a shame as it adds a huge amount of immersion, imagine feeling every vertical movement you see on screen! :D
@@KarlGosling it sounds amazing, I just can't do this until I get a space downstairs. I still keep think about your old post about a transducer cushion, never actually found it on sale.
Also did you give up with GT3 racing?
The issue with trying to replicate too many effects with just actuators is everything gets blended together and looses definition.
If the actuators are doing a big pitch/heave event like hitting the base of a hill and need to move at their maximum 250mm/s, when do they have the time to change direction at 10+ Hz for road texture of engine vibration whilst maintaining the 250mm/s heave?
Just by your right arm, why do yo have 3 speakers when you could have 1 full range driver?
IRL The vibrations we feel are from vertical motion (suspension and tyre movement) there is nothing to get blended together like if you try to simulate too much with a tactile transducer, the motion is doing 1:1 (within the limits of physics) what the real car would be doing.
Engine vibrations should be basically off after idle as that is more of an effect.
Using one "full range" driver is the worst possible way to listen to anything, a 15" driver for example cannot accurately produce high frequency sound and also low frequency sound... you should always where possible have a dedicated driver for each part of the audio spectrum.
This is mostly true and effects based motion do suffer from saturation of signal as they overlap each other and compete for your senses. This is really a science and a complicated problem to solve algorithmically/mechano-electrically. This is where having localized vibrations with transducers and actuators just for motion makes sense. However even things like engine vibration do not stay localized and vibrate throughout the chassis. A motion actuator can represent not only the engine vibration but also the resonance as it travels through the chassis. Good example is a trophy truck in iRacing. Rev it enough and the whole rig shakes and rotates with the inertia of the motor combined with the soft suspension. The 'effect' is definitely more pronounced with motion systems vs. transducers. But transducers still have their benefits including higher sustainable frequency 150hz+ and localization, meaning you can place them better around the chassis. However they do rely a lot on effects, and effects based motion can and does suffer from false positives, or playing canned effects or pre-recorded motion signals that might not represent accurately.
I was wondering if anyone has installed a butt kicker set up on a gt omega titan rig? Did you have to customise anything?? They supply a bracket for other gt omega rigs but not the titan..worried il have issues mouting and im not that handy with tools haha
With a bit of luck you can clamp it to the back tube, assuming you have the Titan on it's feet.
Hoping you might be able to push me in the right direction Karl. Not much of a car racer, even after buying some kit from watching your videos, but I do WANT a motorcycle SIM machine. Any companies you know of you can vouch for?
Sorry mate I have no experience at all with motorbike sims..
Check out MotoTrainer.
I got to rub my greesey fingers all over it at Laguna last year. Its got lean, but no surge or lift currently... they do use a real motorcycle that rolls up and straps into the sim and the stock controls (ride by wire) are used. Im all about two wheel action 1st, and four wheel action 2nd, but the its just not ready to perform anywhere close to the level of driving sims currently.
@@gasracing4000 I've since found a couple companies who make professional level Sims for MotoGP and WSB, but they seem to range in the 100k+ price. Ain't worth selling off a property just to buy a sim when I can ride the real thing 😂
@@rossharper1983 I think MotoTrainer is one of thoose companies in bed with DORNA, so yhea, not realistic for average joes.
The software on the 2 wheel sims is all sim specific from what i've seen, so i think we are a ways off from being able to play a 2 wheel release title (Tourist Trophy, Motogp22, ect...) on a home sim.
The biggest problem with those actuators / seat movers is the insane price that they are. Even the seat movers cost more than €1,500 with just two actuators on it.
Imagine if you could buy a reasonably one with two actuators on it that just straps on to the bottom of a cockpit , even if they just move about one or two inches.
I know it's nice to have the long throw but if it means making it much more affordable then very short throw actuators is better than nothing.
Regrettably as far as your point goes, the screw length makes very little difference to the final price. The brains, the motors and the electronics are key, plus the materials.
Finally, and this is often overlooked, people who sell this kit don't have a side hustle. This is how we make a living, and it's an incrediby modest one.
Check out the Rs-mega+ kits. For less than a seat mover, I got a four actuator kit with everything needed ans basically plug and play.
I think there's still a place for transducers on a motion platform, but you definitely don't need them for impacts and road texture. I have stuff like ABS, gear shifts, RPMs. I do think that wheel slip effect I'm getting out of SRS is better handled by transducers but that maybe is a personal preference.
Yeah I think it's probably personal preference, if you want effects like that you could well use transducers, for me I don't like adding effects.
Would it be useful to have a single transducer just for the engine vibration?
Yup... I have a butt kicker gamer 2 under my seat and it adds a lot.
I have a Reckhorn 200 attached to the frame of a Playseat challenge for engine feedback, it doesn't really make you race any better, but it sure improves immersion.
And it gives a pretty good massage after a long day's work 😄
this is exactly what I do, just a big buttkicker for engine rpm
Doesn't need to be dedicated for engine vibrations and I tuned those vibrations down because the frequencies also triggers my neighbours, even it's well isolated here and nobody living beneath my floor.
You could use one but engine vibration is movement of the pistons going up and down (vibrations in any car is always caused by movement rather than say sound) so easily reproduced using the upright actuators :)
100 percent agree. I had the full transducer setup. Then I got dbox, and eventually took the transducers off. I didn’t think the net add of the transducers was worth the effort, and complexity.
Do these work with flight sims?
Sure do, I run MSFS 2020.
@@KarlGosling That would be a great setup/intro video. Maybe not most of your normal audience but I've not seen anyone in the flight sim area do this. Don't suppose you've tried DCS...
Yuppers... DCS world is amazing on it... Same with the Microsoft one 😁
Many factors you do not account for Karl....
Trying to keep things simple mate, replicating vertical movement by using vertical movement.