I was baffled by some of your comments so watched a bit of the video again. The bit where we are taking the rods/pistons out I edited a lot from due to me and Matt talking some rubbish What’s missing from there is the smell of the crankshaft when cylinder 3 rod was removed. It absolutely stunk. I’m not sure if I videoed the bearing either but it was welded to the conrod Could the piston have failed to cause that? Or did the bearing fail, leading to the chaos. Hmmm
@@dannyDC2yeah and it’s not common to get a hydro lock from water flowing in the cilinder when it’s revving it’s tits of. Would be way to slow to get inside and you would have seen white smoke for a little while
Id go with that too. The initial water ingress and relatively low hydrolocking may of caused a spun bearing first(the very least amount of damage possible in that situation), causing the knock, power loss and extra heat (probably what the cooked smell was that dan mentioned, if thats what it smelled like?) and then eventually there was too much water, causing the rod to bend on compression stroke, jammed the piston in the cyl, ripped the arse out of it... etcetc. It did happen on a upshift too iirc? High rpm, high vaccuum situation, causing more water to get sucked in maybe? 🤷
@@upurkilt7246 hydrolocking would've severely bent the rod as well. I would say the injector failed on cylinder 3 melting the piston would a more than likely scenario.
For what you do and how fast you drive, an oil accumulator is going pay for itself easily, and remove lot of headaches of having to replace engines on race days. As stated by others, baffles are not enough.
@@zedfender9423 It's a cheaper alternative to a dry sump system. It provides oil pressure to the engine if and when there is a loss of pressure from the pump. Accumulates and stores oil under pressure and uses it to 'fill in' dips in oil pressure during events like hard cornering.
Usually no.4 big end bearing that fails first if oil pressure is ever a regular issue (Furthest away from the pump). Piston speed is high on a K24, its likely the piston that has failed around the little end/wrist pin and carnage ensues! The damage to the cylinder seems to point that way as against it being a bearing failure and it throwing/snapping a rod. Good effort getting the replacement engine in, was a mega race to watch!
I'd have to agree with you ...the bearing failure might actually be due to all the piston nuggets getting between the up & down motion of what's left of the falling apart piston, and the combustion chamber. Even the rod is tweaked(surprised that it didn't break also).
@@danielcgomez it’s always fun to try and determine what’s gone on! The way the head gaskets blown out too could suggest there’s been ringland failure/butted rings that have fractured the bore but you’d have expected tell tale smoke/steam from the exhaust before it let go completely. From the race video I’d expected a dropped valve initially. Perhaps it could just be a combination of a failed bearing (thus excessive “clearance”) and high piston speed contributing to too harsh a change in direction of the piston that’s ultimately led to it breaking up? Who knows! One things for sure, something definitely ended up between the head and the crown to tweak the rod like that 😬
My money is on fuelling/detonation to result in an outcome like that, especially one so isolated to a single cylinder. If it was low oil pressure or an oil-related issue then you’d probably see more damage/wear on the other engine bearings, you’d also potentially be dropping out of VTEC while driving, which I didn’t hear. Get the injectors flow tested and whip the plugs out of your current engine to check the colour to give you an idea of how each cylinder has been running. Other options are things like the water jacket getting blocked around that cylinder causing it to heat up, or maybe the oil gallery/squirter to that cylinder got blocked, but it would be pretty odd for something to happen on isolation like that when the oil/water are common feeds/flows throughout the rest of the engine. My money is defo on fuelling/detonation causing the piston to grenade itself. Could also potentially be ignition timing related, but again, for that to be in isolation and not causing poor/similar running across all cylinders would be pretty strange Edit - also think it was less likely to be head gasket failure, as they tend to let go a bit gradually and you’d probably have seen white smoke if you were burning water. You did say you felt it was a bit slower for the last lap before failure - does your footage show any white smoke etc? (White smoke = water) There is a chance it could have catastrophically failed and filled the cylinder with water, but I think that’s less likely, because for water to flow in at the rate needed to do mega damage is unlikely due to cylinder temps and the small space available (even with a totally blown gasket) for the water to actually flow in
Big end Bearing went… (sometimes they just can), hence the knock, that starved the little end, and melted the piston round the pin and smashy smashy smashy smash… Get drive tho to fight back and even better references in this vid, I count 2 AvE and 1 Salad Fingers… very nice
My diagnosis is rod bolt stretched from high rpm causing big end bearing clearance to increase ( knocking sound and heat colour on crank ). This clearance reduces oil pressure for the little end which seized (again heat colour on center of wrist pin) and broke out of the piston. Then the rod smashed the piston everywhere. To confirm this measure the rod bolt length of failed rod and new Honda specs/ tolerance. Absolutely awesome drive in race 2! Sometimes it’s funny how anger turns to a good focus. Well done keep it up, love the content.
I'm going with timing. Also Cylinder 2 & 3 run hotter than 1 & 4 due to less area covered by the water jacket. For sustained high rpm driving can always add 1% - 2% extra fuel in those cylinders to aid with cooling. May have cracked a ringland which can un balance the cylinder
Hard to tell from the vid, but if the bearing had failed there would be a rainbow heat bloom around the rod, and if it was an oil supply issue the other bearings would show signs of it,as would the top end, most likely the piston skirt/ring land failed just due to hours used, or the injector on that cylinder failed/got blocked and it detonated to pieces, amazed the baffle survived! hard luck but thats racing huh, look forward to more vids :)
I wouldn't say big end bearing was cause, more effect. As others have said, get the injectors flow tested to be safe. Could have nipped a piston ring, got hot (timing and/or fueling), or piston has began to break up under load (happened to me on Rover V8, forged piston cracked, failed and ended up with rod cutting the engine in half!). Ultimately it's the piston that has failed imo. If big end had failed first it would seize, but not (in my experience) explode... Good effort getting stuck in to the engine though! Scary place if you've not done it before 🤣. Sure you'll come back stronger for the experience though bud 💪 👍
don't know the rev limit, but for circuit track work, I'd limit that stock k24 to 7200 rpm. At 8000 rpm, piston speed of a 99mm stroke engine hits 5200 ft/min or 26.4 m/s. For a build engine with forged pistons, you just get away with this on track, we talk Formula 1 and NASCAR piston speeds here, but not with cast pistons. To give you an idea. this corresponds to a K20, 86mm stroke, reving 9200 rpm. On stock pistons, this would not last long either on track.
Piston McNuggets and engine gravel. Proper destruction. Based on the crank and rod on #3, that was oil starvation. Likely root cause was bearing failure, but it could also have been a bit of junk in the oil that clogged the passage in the crank.
Looking at the big end and crank that looks OK from the vid, I'd guess the piston developed a crack round the ring lands or skirt, some bits fell off and that was your knocking period, then it just tore itself apart until it fully let go. I don't think it was oil starvation as the shells would be welded to the crank and rod. It's just been rung hard for 1 lap beyond its life desires.
Piston failed around the pin. Happened to mine, rod just pulls from the bottom of the piston. Mine was the same all bearings fine ect..... Just K24 life!
Hi Dan , it went bang. I have looked at a lot of the comments and they are all have different ideas so I am just going to say great video mate it went bang !
On these engines what retains the gudgeon pin in the piston? This looks a bit like the failure ive seen in high revving bike engines where the circlip on gudgeon pin makes a break for it. Piston gets lunched and smashes around. The slight blueing you have on the big end might just be lack of lubrication in the final thrashings. Once piston is gone and rod at a weird angle, oil doesn't stay in big end bearing and gets hot. Anyway, thats all total guess work from my armchair whilst drinking SanMiguel, but i thought in true RUclips fashion id throw my hat in ;)
Just my two penneth... Looking at the damage the failure originates as piston failure and anything else is collateral damage. What caused the piston failure isn't easy to determine without closer inspection. I have seen piston skirts come off due to partial seizure and piston crowns come off through over revving. You did say the bore oiler was missing, and whilst it could easily have been damaged it could have been missing all along, if that cylinder was running lean it could have elevated cylinder temperatures and either could have caused partial seizure. There are lots of reasons as to why the piston could have failed, I somehow doubt it was bearing failure as the piston would have survived long after the con rod was poked out of the side of the block nor ring failure as the engine would have been down to 3 cylinders for some time before failure. I watched the race video and the failure seemed pretty instant? Please let us all know if you get a concrete diagnosis. I was very impressed with your team who all pulled together to get you out on track and indeed your drive from last to second...
The piston failing could cause the bearing to seize to the crank? Is it not more likely the bearing failed causing the piston to be able to move more than it should, eventually getting mangled Just seems odd that the bearing stunk and was super toasty
Hi Danny, trouble is when theres so much damage its so hard to tell what came first. I would have thought that if the bearing seized to the crank first then the weak point would be the con rod which would have broken but to be completely fair you have seen it and I havent. Was still a great drive though!!@@dannyDC2
Not sure if it's the case on yours but I melted a hole in a piston on a fiesta rs turbo once, one of the injectors must have been weak and it leaned out to the point of melting a hole, if it had been much worse I can see how the piston would seperate from the rod, the bearing and carnage could have come after the piston left chat in the most spectacular way
My Theory is the injector failed on cylinder 3 melting the piston. If the issue was an oil one then more than likely the crank/ pistons would have seized. We didn't see any bent rods or damaged bearings just a missing/destroyed piston and it only happened on one cylinder!! I'm sure that's it, unlucky if so!!
Inspect the baffle real good. My brother has the same style. On his, the flap doors are fastened with tiny screws, and one time one screw backed out on his and we found it during an oil change.
Perhaps the liner had cracked causing the piston skirt to bind up in the bore which would naturally tear a hole in the cylinder wall as the crank rotates further and ripping the little end out of the piston. Good effort swapping the engine over and great video.
That day was great to watch all the lads dug in and obviously you and us we whatever would have loved a win you got to be buzzing with the 2nd. Love this channel
I did notice you didnt lock the baffle in around the oil pump neck. The baffle has a sliding part that locks around it to prevent oil from sloshing out. The baffle shouldnt come off with the pan
Piston broke due to blocked oil jet, possibly why its missing, or other combustion issue, then once fractured the rod pulled free and became a hammer. Pretty amazing how much energy is being distributed every second in one of these motors.
The piston (or what's left of it) looks melted but it's hard to tell from the video. If it is melted as badly as it looks i'd put money on that cylinder running lean from a failed injector, need to create some serious heat to melt a piston that badly and considering it was isolated to one cylinder i'd put money on it running lean.
Didn't it run low on fuel and get a few sputters the previous race? Could have damaged the top of the piston then next time out it gets up to temp and lets go?
Did you reuse the injectors on the other engine? If not, be interested to see the flow on them across the board. Some good theories in the comments. Could be gasket failure or lean cylinder. More investigation required 🍺
My theory is … 2 years of racing, pushing hard at Cadwell the big end bearing decided it wasn’t happy any more. Nothing more nothing less simple honestly wear = mechanical failure . Lap before it went I could here rod knock from the side of circuit, next lap it was twice as bad but no communication with you means we couldn’t tell you to stop . High revving an engine with a knocking big end usually ends with the piston exiting the engine . Map comments .. injector comments I can’t see how this is as the map and injectors ran the second engine for race 2 and also and full event a few weeks later.
Didn't look to be any heat in the bottom of the 3rd rod, that to me says not a bearing failure. Get the injectors flow tested, lean cylinder, piston say bye, bending rod and chunking crank in the process. Thats my guess.
Classic Piston Pin Boss failure there I'd say. The rod is bent like that because one side of the Piston Pin, briefly had 1.25x piston above it. 😂You can't get that level of bend from a hydraulic event unless you dumped 40cc of water just down one Intake Valve in that port. When you get true hydraulic or overboost failure rods "tend" to fail though the plane of least resistance (Thrust/Anti-Thrust). Your bearing failed after it got crushed along with the, still connected, half of the piston, Too many high speed downshifts I would say (there were quite a few I winced at just before it popped). The inertia of an unloaded piston is insane, your're relying on two 5mm thick aluminum cups trying to keep the Piston from continuing upwards. This is aggravated on downshifts as you have no gas pressure to provide a "cushion". Seen it many times before myself and have a half and half piston myself here, just like you have there. Would need to see the big end bearing and crank journal to fully confirm though. Ping me some Hi-res pics and I'll have a look. 👍
Could be that the piston contacted the head because the bearing had gone. That way the piston comes up higher due to the bearing play and smash the head that way. How a bearing can fail in the first place…that’s a different story
Had the exact same thing on my clio, bearing was fine for me, but could have been damaged in the chaos for you? Spoke to an experienced engine builder who said the only common case of this was ford sierras, that was a piston skirt design flaw, later found out the wossner pistons I had put in my engine seem to have the same issue. Have a look at your other 3 that are left, you might find hairline cracks down the skirts. Might be completely wrong but that's my experience of this sort of failure
Piston pin boss let go, that was the initial knock thst was heard. Other boss then fails and piston separated fromrod. I have had this with RBB pistons in one of my racecars Mine was just lucky tho, caught it before it separated completely. I have pictures of mine as it was removed, but cant post it here for some reason.
If the rod was bent then surely the piston was intact when the sleeve let go and the bent rod was caused by hydro locking? Deffo get them injectors flow tested. Hope you manage to get your hands on a JDM A1 lump. I’m sure a subscriber knows someone who knows someone who could sort you out. Thanks for the mid-week “entertainment” laddo 👍🏼
I think either it had a cracked liner and it hyrolocked what caused the force on top of the piston or is there a way for water to enter the engine from the inlet dont know if water runs in a passage on the inlet manifold never worked on one of these. Thats my theory anyway.
I don't think bearing starvation or a bent rod can do that. It must have got mega hot in the chamber, and turned the piston into liquid. Must have ran lean, on that pot, which could be a lazy injector, or the wiring that goes to it. "ahh like rustehh razor blades" :)
could be so many things. oil pressure on that bearing might have been too low because maybe something was stuck in an oil channel, car might have had knock because of heat of sorts, or because of bad petrol maping might have issues some sensor might have a fault giving wrong readings or something oil film couldve failed piston couldve failed, rings couldve failed oil starvation couldve happened still no idea 🤷♂️
Water got through the idle control valve into your intake, hydrolocked cylinder 3 resulting in a bended conrod. The conrod pin has to be parallel with the crankshaft, if not the piston doesnt slides because no longer follows the shape of the bore. Being forced up and down at 7000RPM x 0,016RPS / 4 cylinders, it gives you a rate of 29 revolutions per second on that piston causing the conrod bearing to suffer too much applied force from the other good moving cylinders which ends overheating the bearings and seizing to the conrod. The thin cylinder wall has seen too much so it brokes to give speace on the push angled cylinder, which ends breaking his supports to the pin and travels freely through the engine with other rotating parts which has no problem to crush and compress the cast aluminium transforming into a nugget
water ingress from a small hose at 7000 rpm won't hydro lock an engine. Each cylinder has 50cc chamber volume. At 7000 rpm that would allow the engine in ingest 58 times 50cc per cylinder per second or 2.9 litres or 3/4 of a gallon before hydrolocking a single cylinder. I have cracked a liner once from detonation on a supercharged engine and blew about 3 litres of coolant though the exhaust at 6000 rpm within seconds. No hydrolock, no bend rod, no damage to piston or head. Dropped in a new liner, wet liner system, and it was good to go.
hard to tell from the video but id be looking at the piston for the failure point, do you have any logs atall to show fuelling on that cylinder at the time? injector failure possibly causing the piston to back its bags? its hard to say really without looking at stuff in person but id be looking at the piston upwards myself dude, im a vag guy not a jdm bro but they all melt the same! 😅 hope you get it sorted and prevent future failures mate, love the channel
Ok' so i've stopped the video at 2.33. I'm saying (sorry) that engine is going to be pretty much completely buggered and it's going to be an oiling failure of the big end. . . . . Lets see what you find and if I'm at all right. Hopefully I'm wrong about the engine being foooked.
As a guess I would say low oil pressure / starvation causing bearing failure. Once the bearing failed (and Welded itself together) the rod smashed the piston into the liner wall breaking everything. Probably hit it into the head a few times before it came off for good measure. Do you have any oil pressure gauges in sight of one of your cameras or any data logging? That would help analysis. In my experience the sump baffles are generally crap because they don't deal with oil being dragged up the timing cover by the chain, especially on left hand bends.
unfortunately no logging, not by default anyway. The ECU can do it but requires assistance from Windows I dont have any gauges or warnings either. Just the trusty OEM water temp gauge and low oil pressure light... Don't remember that triggering. Need a gauge really
@@dannyDC2oil pressure gauge is defo a good addition to a race car - difficult to monitor religiously when racing, but some of the newer sexier gauges do their own data recording over a short period, (basically a playback of the readings) which clearly can be useful 👍
Could be piston failure be it through wear on the skirt and then play turning into knocking and then at one point slip turned to grip and shit went bang could have been rings or if it was lean something that would cause or create conditions for a mechanical failure or extreme wear. my bet would be on piston or rings crapping out as if it were oil starvation you would have heard the knocking for sure and again the engine wouldn't keep going if a bearing had spun you'd know really fast. it's possible a bearing wore out and allowed for free play I suppose that would be enough for some free play that could inturn cause a big failure like a piston cracking or something alike. could have been that cylinder lean and melting the piston over time losing hp on that cyl due to a bad injector or something similar too keep testing shit
Could be a complete coincidence but did you not change the sump baffle just before this race? I would check all bits of it are accounted for. I just watched a video of a GR86 using a prototype baffle to fix oil pressure drop issues, baffle failed and killed the engine.
oiling for the bearing failed.. why? clearances out of spec? det damaged the bearing in the past? maybe just the oil was too old or too hot (or both) and couldn't provide the support that bearing needed. knocking starts very shortly after. Could the no cool down lap have left your oil uber hot earlier in the day and that was the last the oil had to give? how does the inside of the oil pump look? is it still in spec for clearance? injector? is the fuel filter clogged? open it up and investigate. too many unknowns without more sensors on the car, was it logging at the time? how does that look? The feeling of the engine slowing down is metal on metal drag from inside. Had it a couple of times. engine is prob too far gone by the time you notice. my guess was tired oil, lead to bearing oil film support not good enough anymore and then kept driving once the bearing had started to wear. interfearance engine and no bearing left, introduced the valves to the piston and it snowballed from there
I was baffled by some of your comments so watched a bit of the video again. The bit where we are taking the rods/pistons out I edited a lot from due to me and Matt talking some rubbish
What’s missing from there is the smell of the crankshaft when cylinder 3 rod was removed. It absolutely stunk. I’m not sure if I videoed the bearing either but it was welded to the conrod
Could the piston have failed to cause that? Or did the bearing fail, leading to the chaos. Hmmm
Why would it be knocking from the headgasket going?
@@dannyDC2yeah and it’s not common to get a hydro lock from water flowing in the cilinder when it’s revving it’s tits of. Would be way to slow to get inside and you would have seen white smoke for a little while
Id go with that too. The initial water ingress and relatively low hydrolocking may of caused a spun bearing first(the very least amount of damage possible in that situation), causing the knock, power loss and extra heat (probably what the cooked smell was that dan mentioned, if thats what it smelled like?) and then eventually there was too much water, causing the rod to bend on compression stroke, jammed the piston in the cyl, ripped the arse out of it... etcetc.
It did happen on a upshift too iirc? High rpm, high vaccuum situation, causing more water to get sucked in maybe? 🤷
@@upurkilt7246 hydrolocking would've severely bent the rod as well. I would say the injector failed on cylinder 3 melting the piston would a more than likely scenario.
Could the injector failed on Cylinder 3 melting the piston??
Piston broke innit.
Or is that pissed N broke
This guy knows
You sound like a Formula one mechanic can you elaborate ?
For what you do and how fast you drive, an oil accumulator is going pay for itself easily, and remove lot of headaches of having to replace engines on race days. As stated by others, baffles are not enough.
Does that mean going dry sump or just more oil capacity i dont knowbut im interested..
@@zedfender9423 It's a cheaper alternative to a dry sump system. It provides oil pressure to the engine if and when there is a loss of pressure from the pump. Accumulates and stores oil under pressure and uses it to 'fill in' dips in oil pressure during events like hard cornering.
@@zedfender9423 what unicorn7337 said. Poormans setup but works wonders for road racing.
Usually no.4 big end bearing that fails first if oil pressure is ever a regular issue (Furthest away from the pump). Piston speed is high on a K24, its likely the piston that has failed around the little end/wrist pin and carnage ensues! The damage to the cylinder seems to point that way as against it being a bearing failure and it throwing/snapping a rod.
Good effort getting the replacement engine in, was a mega race to watch!
I'd have to agree with you ...the bearing failure might actually be due to all the piston nuggets getting between the up & down motion of what's left of the falling apart piston, and the combustion chamber. Even the rod is tweaked(surprised that it didn't break also).
@@danielcgomez it’s always fun to try and determine what’s gone on!
The way the head gaskets blown out too could suggest there’s been ringland failure/butted rings that have fractured the bore but you’d have expected tell tale smoke/steam from the exhaust before it let go completely. From the race video I’d expected a dropped valve initially.
Perhaps it could just be a combination of a failed bearing (thus excessive “clearance”) and high piston speed contributing to too harsh a change in direction of the piston that’s ultimately led to it breaking up? Who knows! One things for sure, something definitely ended up between the head and the crown to tweak the rod like that 😬
Ejecto pisto, cuz!
Im sorry for your loss Dan. Your mum will be so proud. Been watching from the DC2 days.
My money is on fuelling/detonation to result in an outcome like that, especially one so isolated to a single cylinder.
If it was low oil pressure or an oil-related issue then you’d probably see more damage/wear on the other engine bearings, you’d also potentially be dropping out of VTEC while driving, which I didn’t hear.
Get the injectors flow tested and whip the plugs out of your current engine to check the colour to give you an idea of how each cylinder has been running.
Other options are things like the water jacket getting blocked around that cylinder causing it to heat up, or maybe the oil gallery/squirter to that cylinder got blocked, but it would be pretty odd for something to happen on isolation like that when the oil/water are common feeds/flows throughout the rest of the engine.
My money is defo on fuelling/detonation causing the piston to grenade itself. Could also potentially be ignition timing related, but again, for that to be in isolation and not causing poor/similar running across all cylinders would be pretty strange
Edit - also think it was less likely to be head gasket failure, as they tend to let go a bit gradually and you’d probably have seen white smoke if you were burning water. You did say you felt it was a bit slower for the last lap before failure - does your footage show any white smoke etc? (White smoke = water)
There is a chance it could have catastrophically failed and filled the cylinder with water, but I think that’s less likely, because for water to flow in at the rate needed to do mega damage is unlikely due to cylinder temps and the small space available (even with a totally blown gasket) for the water to actually flow in
Big end Bearing went… (sometimes they just can), hence the knock, that starved the little end, and melted the piston round the pin and smashy smashy smashy smash…
Get drive tho to fight back and even better references in this vid, I count 2 AvE and 1 Salad Fingers… very nice
In other words, it was well fooked!
That is the epitome of 'Piston Broke'!
My diagnosis is rod bolt stretched from high rpm causing big end bearing clearance to increase ( knocking sound and heat colour on crank ). This clearance reduces oil pressure for the little end which seized (again heat colour on center of wrist pin) and broke out of the piston. Then the rod smashed the piston everywhere. To confirm this measure the rod bolt length of failed rod and new Honda specs/ tolerance.
Absolutely awesome drive in race 2! Sometimes it’s funny how anger turns to a good focus. Well done keep it up, love the content.
I'm going with timing. Also Cylinder 2 & 3 run hotter than 1 & 4 due to less area covered by the water jacket. For sustained high rpm driving can always add 1% - 2% extra fuel in those cylinders to aid with cooling. May have cracked a ringland which can un balance the cylinder
Got to love a cheeky mid week vid 👌💯 All the best to you with everything you had going on aswell man 👍💪
Hard to tell from the vid, but if the bearing had failed there would be a rainbow heat bloom around the rod, and if it was an oil supply issue the other bearings would show signs of it,as would the top end, most likely the piston skirt/ring land failed just due to hours used, or the injector on that cylinder failed/got blocked and it detonated to pieces, amazed the baffle survived! hard luck but thats racing huh, look forward to more vids :)
I wouldn't say big end bearing was cause, more effect. As others have said, get the injectors flow tested to be safe. Could have nipped a piston ring, got hot (timing and/or fueling), or piston has began to break up under load (happened to me on Rover V8, forged piston cracked, failed and ended up with rod cutting the engine in half!). Ultimately it's the piston that has failed imo. If big end had failed first it would seize, but not (in my experience) explode...
Good effort getting stuck in to the engine though! Scary place if you've not done it before 🤣. Sure you'll come back stronger for the experience though bud 💪 👍
Mullet king ,dope car.
Always changed the big ends and mains on my b16 every year after the race season finished
Wear and tear item especially in racing
don't know the rev limit, but for circuit track work, I'd limit that stock k24 to 7200 rpm. At 8000 rpm, piston speed of a 99mm stroke engine hits 5200 ft/min or 26.4 m/s. For a build engine with forged pistons, you just get away with this on track, we talk Formula 1 and NASCAR piston speeds here, but not with cast pistons. To give you an idea. this corresponds to a K20, 86mm stroke, reving 9200 rpm. On stock pistons, this would not last long either on track.
Piston McNuggets and engine gravel. Proper destruction. Based on the crank and rod on #3, that was oil starvation. Likely root cause was bearing failure, but it could also have been a bit of junk in the oil that clogged the passage in the crank.
a fan of Eric from 'I do Cars' huh ...hahaha
"I do cars" is just a great channel. Love some good piston mcnuggets
Looking at the big end and crank that looks OK from the vid, I'd guess the piston developed a crack round the ring lands or skirt, some bits fell off and that was your knocking period, then it just tore itself apart until it fully let go. I don't think it was oil starvation as the shells would be welded to the crank and rod. It's just been rung hard for 1 lap beyond its life desires.
14:58 fingers.
Love to see a engine build vlog.
Piston failed around the pin. Happened to mine, rod just pulls from the bottom of the piston. Mine was the same all bearings fine ect..... Just K24 life!
Hi Dan , it went bang.
I have looked at a lot of the comments and they are all have different ideas so I am just going to say great video mate it went bang !
On these engines what retains the gudgeon pin in the piston? This looks a bit like the failure ive seen in high revving bike engines where the circlip on gudgeon pin makes a break for it. Piston gets lunched and smashes around. The slight blueing you have on the big end might just be lack of lubrication in the final thrashings. Once piston is gone and rod at a weird angle, oil doesn't stay in big end bearing and gets hot. Anyway, thats all total guess work from my armchair whilst drinking SanMiguel, but i thought in true RUclips fashion id throw my hat in ;)
Looks fine to me.
Detonation kills an engine in seconds. High revs High temps breeds detonation
Just my two penneth... Looking at the damage the failure originates as piston failure and anything else is collateral damage. What caused the piston failure isn't easy to determine without closer inspection. I have seen piston skirts come off due to partial seizure and piston crowns come off through over revving. You did say the bore oiler was missing, and whilst it could easily have been damaged it could have been missing all along, if that cylinder was running lean it could have elevated cylinder temperatures and either could have caused partial seizure. There are lots of reasons as to why the piston could have failed, I somehow doubt it was bearing failure as the piston would have survived long after the con rod was poked out of the side of the block nor ring failure as the engine would have been down to 3 cylinders for some time before failure. I watched the race video and the failure seemed pretty instant?
Please let us all know if you get a concrete diagnosis. I was very impressed with your team who all pulled together to get you out on track and indeed your drive from last to second...
The piston failing could cause the bearing to seize to the crank?
Is it not more likely the bearing failed causing the piston to be able to move more than it should, eventually getting mangled
Just seems odd that the bearing stunk and was super toasty
Hi Danny, trouble is when theres so much damage its so hard to tell what came first. I would have thought that if the bearing seized to the crank first then the weak point would be the con rod which would have broken but to be completely fair you have seen it and I havent. Was still a great drive though!!@@dannyDC2
Not sure if it's the case on yours but I melted a hole in a piston on a fiesta rs turbo once, one of the injectors must have been weak and it leaned out to the point of melting a hole, if it had been much worse I can see how the piston would seperate from the rod, the bearing and carnage could have come after the piston left chat in the most spectacular way
Salad fingers reference 😂
My Theory is the injector failed on cylinder 3 melting the piston.
If the issue was an oil one then more than likely the crank/ pistons would have seized. We didn't see any bent rods or damaged bearings just a missing/destroyed piston and it only happened on one cylinder!!
I'm sure that's it, unlucky if so!!
Inspect the baffle real good. My brother has the same style. On his, the flap doors are fastened with tiny screws, and one time one screw backed out on his and we found it during an oil change.
That piston evaporated leaving in the gudgeon pin on the small end.
Big noise a gwaun
Perhaps the liner had cracked causing the piston skirt to bind up in the bore which would naturally tear a hole in the cylinder wall as the crank rotates further and ripping the little end out of the piston. Good effort swapping the engine over and great video.
Piston left the chat💥
Obviously the gaggle pin broke and snapped the overhead manifold sprocket resulting in catastrophic failure 🤷🏻♂️simples. 😂
Danger to manifold !!!
That day was great to watch all the lads dug in and obviously you and us we whatever would have loved a win you got to be buzzing with the 2nd.
Love this channel
I did notice you didnt lock the baffle in around the oil pump neck. The baffle has a sliding part that locks around it to prevent oil from sloshing out.
The baffle shouldnt come off with the pan
You broke it, thats what happened. Cheers dan
Piston broke due to blocked oil jet, possibly why its missing, or other combustion issue, then once fractured the rod pulled free and became a hammer. Pretty amazing how much energy is being distributed every second in one of these motors.
The piston (or what's left of it) looks melted but it's hard to tell from the video.
If it is melted as badly as it looks i'd put money on that cylinder running lean from a failed injector, need to create some serious heat to melt a piston that badly and considering it was isolated to one cylinder i'd put money on it running lean.
Piston 3, aiiite imma head out 👋🏻
Looks like I’m buying more merch to get it sorted
Don’t unless you’re from North America cos the store is shite in Europe
engine detonation, pinking damaged piston then complete failure
Didn't it run low on fuel and get a few sputters the previous race? Could have damaged the top of the piston then next time out it gets up to temp and lets go?
Did you reuse the injectors on the other engine? If not, be interested to see the flow on them across the board. Some good theories in the comments. Could be gasket failure or lean cylinder. More investigation required 🍺
Thanks for that Dan ❤
My theory is …
2 years of racing, pushing hard at Cadwell the big end bearing decided it wasn’t happy any more. Nothing more nothing less simple honestly wear = mechanical failure . Lap before it went I could here rod knock from the side of circuit, next lap it was twice as bad but no communication with you means we couldn’t tell you to stop .
High revving an engine with a knocking big end usually ends with the piston exiting the engine .
Map comments .. injector comments I can’t see how this is as the map and injectors ran the second engine for race 2 and also and full event a few weeks later.
Didn't look to be any heat in the bottom of the 3rd rod, that to me says not a bearing failure.
Get the injectors flow tested, lean cylinder, piston say bye, bending rod and chunking crank in the process.
Thats my guess.
I must have made a bad video if I didn’t show you the heat of number 3 rod bearings. If only you could smell it!
Great vid lad
Classic Piston Pin Boss failure there I'd say. The rod is bent like that because one side of the Piston Pin, briefly had 1.25x piston above it. 😂You can't get that level of bend from a hydraulic event unless you dumped 40cc of water just down one Intake Valve in that port. When you get true hydraulic or overboost failure rods "tend" to fail though the plane of least resistance (Thrust/Anti-Thrust).
Your bearing failed after it got crushed along with the, still connected, half of the piston,
Too many high speed downshifts I would say (there were quite a few I winced at just before it popped). The inertia of an unloaded piston is insane, your're relying on two 5mm thick aluminum cups trying to keep the Piston from continuing upwards. This is aggravated on downshifts as you have no gas pressure to provide a "cushion".
Seen it many times before myself and have a half and half piston myself here, just like you have there.
Would need to see the big end bearing and crank journal to fully confirm though.
Ping me some Hi-res pics and I'll have a look. 👍
Awsome Jagr 6️⃣8️⃣ mullet.!!!
Could be that the piston contacted the head because the bearing had gone. That way the piston comes up higher due to the bearing play and smash the head that way. How a bearing can fail in the first place…that’s a different story
What happened:
Emgine bronken
That's what Stella said!
Fuck Dan some devastating damage there from the trackside footage it was knocking like fuck before it totally let go 😢
Had the exact same thing on my clio, bearing was fine for me, but could have been damaged in the chaos for you? Spoke to an experienced engine builder who said the only common case of this was ford sierras, that was a piston skirt design flaw, later found out the wossner pistons I had put in my engine seem to have the same issue. Have a look at your other 3 that are left, you might find hairline cracks down the skirts. Might be completely wrong but that's my experience of this sort of failure
Sounds unlikely but will check
Piston almost looks melted. Wonder if it was a dodgey injector leading to it running lean and the piston got too hot
Danny I would guess that No3 cyl injector not delivering correct t amount of fuel causing the piston to fail as it overheated
It identified as a 2zz
Maybe faulty injection caused the piston to melt?
Auto like soon as adds piss off . I dream of one day affording a 750 MC season, inspirational 💯🔥 drive fast...
Piston pin boss let go, that was the initial knock thst was heard. Other boss then fails and piston separated fromrod. I have had this with RBB pistons in one of my racecars
Mine was just lucky tho, caught it before it separated completely.
I have pictures of mine as it was removed, but cant post it here for some reason.
If the rod was bent then surely the piston was intact when the sleeve let go and the bent rod was caused by hydro locking? Deffo get them injectors flow tested.
Hope you manage to get your hands on a JDM A1 lump. I’m sure a subscriber knows someone who knows someone who could sort you out. Thanks for the mid-week “entertainment” laddo 👍🏼
I think either it had a cracked liner and it hyrolocked what caused the force on top of the piston or is there a way for water to enter the engine from the inlet dont know if water runs in a passage on the inlet manifold never worked on one of these. Thats my theory anyway.
Ive heard older k24s having piston ring issues. Sounds like a honda motor converted itself into a subaru motor lol
piston 3 left the chat
I don't think bearing starvation or a bent rod can do that. It must have got mega hot in the chamber, and turned the piston into liquid. Must have ran lean, on that pot, which could be a lazy injector, or the wiring that goes to it.
"ahh like rustehh razor blades" :)
Check out JL engineering they make aluminum drip trays for those engine stands
could be so many things.
oil pressure on that bearing might have been too low because maybe something was stuck in an oil channel,
car might have had knock because of heat of sorts, or because of bad petrol
maping might have issues
some sensor might have a fault giving wrong readings or something
oil film couldve failed
piston couldve failed, rings couldve failed
oil starvation couldve happened still
no idea 🤷♂️
Water got through the idle control valve into your intake, hydrolocked cylinder 3 resulting in a bended conrod. The conrod pin has to be parallel with the crankshaft, if not the piston doesnt slides because no longer follows the shape of the bore. Being forced up and down at 7000RPM x 0,016RPS / 4 cylinders, it gives you a rate of 29 revolutions per second on that piston causing the conrod bearing to suffer too much applied force from the other good moving cylinders which ends overheating the bearings and seizing to the conrod. The thin cylinder wall has seen too much so it brokes to give speace on the push angled cylinder, which ends breaking his supports to the pin and travels freely through the engine with other rotating parts which has no problem to crush and compress the cast aluminium transforming into a nugget
water ingress from a small hose at 7000 rpm won't hydro lock an engine. Each cylinder has 50cc chamber volume. At 7000 rpm that would allow the engine in ingest 58 times 50cc per cylinder per second or 2.9 litres or 3/4 of a gallon before hydrolocking a single cylinder. I have cracked a liner once from detonation on a supercharged engine and blew about 3 litres of coolant though the exhaust at 6000 rpm within seconds. No hydrolock, no bend rod, no damage to piston or head. Dropped in a new liner, wet liner system, and it was good to go.
The idle valve is deleted on this car with a blanking plate
Bearing failed the piston was smashing the head . Boom
hard to tell from the video but id be looking at the piston for the failure point, do you have any logs atall to show fuelling on that cylinder at the time? injector failure possibly causing the piston to back its bags? its hard to say really without looking at stuff in person but id be looking at the piston upwards myself dude, im a vag guy not a jdm bro but they all melt the same! 😅 hope you get it sorted and prevent future failures mate, love the channel
It would appear that the combustion was no longer internal 😂
Landsail tyres always amused me. Sounds like they will make your car handle like a boat on land. And so it is.....
I used to have them on the Audi,
Sail the lands
Motorsports Theo Von 😂
if you want to know what happened to the piston: check out Judie Wood's theory about dustification
👍🏽
With the way you drive you need a built engine.
A map issue maybe timing / detonation issue? On one cylinder?
midweek danny, spoiling us now
Piston,pistoff
boostedboiz vibes
Haha I thought exactly the same thing. That damage was light compared to what I’ve seen Kyle do to a K20/24 in the last 6 or 7 years 😂
Piston let go. These k24's even at 8k the piston speed is quite high due to the stroke.
Ok' so i've stopped the video at 2.33. I'm saying (sorry) that engine is going to be pretty much completely buggered and it's going to be an oiling failure of the big end. . . . . Lets see what you find and if I'm at all right. Hopefully I'm wrong about the engine being foooked.
As a guess I would say low oil pressure / starvation causing bearing failure. Once the bearing failed (and Welded itself together) the rod smashed the piston into the liner wall breaking everything. Probably hit it into the head a few times before it came off for good measure.
Do you have any oil pressure gauges in sight of one of your cameras or any data logging? That would help analysis.
In my experience the sump baffles are generally crap because they don't deal with oil being dragged up the timing cover by the chain, especially on left hand bends.
unfortunately no logging, not by default anyway. The ECU can do it but requires assistance from Windows
I dont have any gauges or warnings either. Just the trusty OEM water temp gauge and low oil pressure light... Don't remember that triggering. Need a gauge really
@@dannyDC2oil pressure gauge is defo a good addition to a race car - difficult to monitor religiously when racing, but some of the newer sexier gauges do their own data recording over a short period, (basically a playback of the readings) which clearly can be useful 👍
Ouch
If you haven't watched the last two video's please go back epic video's
Never seen someone transfrom a piston into 2 Macdonald's Nuggets 🙄🙄
100 shot of Noz blew the welds on the intake
10:37 plot twist
Could be piston failure be it through wear on the skirt and then play turning into knocking and then at one point slip turned to grip and shit went bang could have been rings or if it was lean something that would cause or create conditions for a mechanical failure or extreme wear.
my bet would be on piston or rings crapping out as if it were oil starvation you would have heard the knocking for sure and again the engine wouldn't keep going if a bearing had spun you'd know really fast.
it's possible a bearing wore out and allowed for free play I suppose that would be enough for some free play that could inturn cause a big failure like a piston cracking or something alike.
could have been that cylinder lean and melting the piston over time losing hp on that cyl due to a bad injector or something similar too keep testing shit
Hole in the block
Yo Dan, love your stuff. Where did you get the blue boxes and rack from?
Those are strong conrods
Could be a complete coincidence but did you not change the sump baffle just before this race? I would check all bits of it are accounted for. I just watched a video of a GR86 using a prototype baffle to fix oil pressure drop issues, baffle failed and killed the engine.
Well the old sump baffle failed, so perhaps that caused some issue with the bearing that led to it failing early
oiling for the bearing failed.. why? clearances out of spec? det damaged the bearing in the past? maybe just the oil was too old or too hot (or both) and couldn't provide the support that bearing needed. knocking starts very shortly after.
Could the no cool down lap have left your oil uber hot earlier in the day and that was the last the oil had to give?
how does the inside of the oil pump look? is it still in spec for clearance?
injector? is the fuel filter clogged? open it up and investigate.
too many unknowns without more sensors on the car, was it logging at the time? how does that look?
The feeling of the engine slowing down is metal on metal drag from inside. Had it a couple of times. engine is prob too far gone by the time you notice.
my guess was tired oil, lead to bearing oil film support not good enough anymore and then kept driving once the bearing had started to wear. interfearance engine and no bearing left, introduced the valves to the piston and it snowballed from there
Did I imagine a Salad Fingers reference?
Injector check innit
i know nothing about engines but i think if the bearing went it would have damaged the crank more,
but who cares just throw more donks at it
Cable tie crew
So Danny why are you guys worried about the exhaust cam?
Rodney's mate pissedTony decided to leave the premises...
At 10.24 into the vid
Do you monitor oil temp? Likely oil temp got too high resulting in pressure loss and spinning a bearing.
Wedge the block ont next one spadge