Arguably the strongest army in the Dune universe are the Fish Speakers. These warriors have been genetically selected for over 3,000 years using the genes of the Empire's most powerful warriors, including the offspring of Duncan Idaho's countless Gholas, descended from the best of the Harkonnens, Atraides, Fremen, and even Sardaukar. Leto II really surrounded himself with the most evolved elements in the human genome.
@@frankaiello6887sure because of their abilities but then I’d say the second machine empire(which is what caused the matres to flee in the first place) are a more capable force then they are
@@aidanlela4872 Not more capable. Just more in number and without moral or ethical restraint. The Honored Matres knew they didn't have the numbers to stand up against the machines, so they ran to get reinforcements.
@@swordmonkey6635 even when the matres reached the old imperium their united forces weren’t enough. And having numerical superiority means you’re more capable. It’s not about efficiency, it’s about efficacy
The second machine empire is by far the best. The honored matres were almost unstoppable compared to the old imperium but they fled for their lives when the machines struck
@@danielneshev2088 I keep thinking that they were running from a mad-evil Kwisatz Haderach. That's why Leto II had been creating a human invisible to prescience (Siona), and that's why matres returned to Old Imperium. A hostile Kwisatz Haderach would've been an okay final villain. Much better than robots.
@impersonal6650 the face dancers that appear at the end of chapter house kind of fill that role not quite a Kwisatz Hederach but probably something even stronger
Many don't factor in the sheer scale and societal aspect of warfare in Dune. The Guild monopoly and Great Convention of the Landsraad prevent a lot of what people have come to expect from a Sci-Fi war. It isn't until at least Heretics of Dune that an alternative to Spice-grown Navigators is developed, so for thousands of years everyone was forced to play by the rules if they wanted to buy a ticket to leave their own planet. Skirmishes between rival Houses would have to be smaller-scale "Wars of Assassins"; unless the Emperor, Bene Gesserits, CHOAM and/or the Spacing Guild itself signed off on it. And then later, the God Emperor.
This is very true, sometimes they could get a planet to fight over, or a section of a planet but for the most part they had to sit around and wait if they got mad at someone.
But... Didnt he finish it? He died 2 years after his last book release or something like that. He set an open ending to the story, free to interpretation
But... Didnt he finish it? He died 2 years after his last book release or something like that. He set an open ending to the story, free to interpretation
No mention of the Sword-masters of Ginaz? Duncan Idaho a Sword-master plays a HUGE role in the books, Not to mention a Sword-master was ranked better than a Sardurkar and could even match or beat a Bene Gesserit. Granted they are a school and a House, a Sword-master is still a massive force multiplier.
The Sword Masters of Ginaz weren't a military force. They were warriors capable of achieving that rank and title, but they were individuals. Some Great Houses used them as personal guards, commandos, and instructors like Duncan Idaho. Sure, they were a threat on the battlefield and could change a battle, they were not a military force and don't count.
The Sword-Masters were a relatively small group and arguably can't be considered a "military" but is more of a training institution. They are more like the Green Berets: force multipliers and specialists attached to other militaries to instruct regular soldiers and be used for special missions.
@@swordmonkey6635 Green Berets are SOF groups that can fight in divisions if needed for asymmetrical warfare such as in the Iraq War. One such battle with Green Berets fighting as infantry teams attached to a Peshmerga general's force of the Iraqi Kurdistan Government to fight against Saddam Hussein's forces. If you didn't know, the Iraqi Kurdistan Government is an autonomous region of Iraq established since 1992 which allied with the U.S. to take down both Saddam Huessein and Osama bin Laden. Cool battle which was documented in detail with journalists right there in the midst of it, and the only casualties that the Peshmerga and Green Berets took was a blue on blue incident with the air force Lately, though (more than a few months ago) Green Berets were sent to Taiwan to train and supervise the Taiwanese military
@@loafoffloof3420 Green Berets were the first US military to be sent to SE Asia in the 1960s to train and supervise foreign troops. They were there as "advisors" but got their hands dirty from time to time.
The thing is, that Frank herbert desired a very specific combat system, that harkened back to ancient times and that is why close combat is the preferred method of engagement in Dune. Shields many think are somehow infallible against high-speed ballistics and that because lasguns are mutually assured destruction that other methods of long range combat just became obsolete. This also follows the implied invincibility of shields unless they are slowly penetrated, which many take as fact and cease to think beyond that, because the books and the universe are so great that this totally passes through them and don't bat an eye. But even in Dune and in the new movies in particular we see a few methods that are effective at dealing with shields. From the squash head slow penetrators used against the Atreides frigates and the smaller missile varieties used by the Fremen against the shielded Harkonnen gunships, to the dart penetrators used by Doctor Yue against Duke Leto and one used by a Sardaukar, the universe itself tells us that long range combat is alive and well. Long story short shields can be beaten by specialized long range weapons and more can be created, but this takes away from the close combat doctrine and intent of Frank herbert so people tend to forget this. Examples of weapons that could take shielded enemies from other franchises are, the Boltgun of Warhammer, because the projectiles are self-propelled, there is a short time, where they would hit the shield without exploding, then slow down, penetrate the shield and explode within the shield confines. Squash head penetrators are meant to maintain a lot of kinetic energy even at relatively slow speeds, so they could still transfer a lot of energy after entering the shield at a relatively slow velocity. Monomolecular net weapons, that surround the target would slowly encompass the enemy and deal devastating damage even at insanely slow speeds. Non-Laser based weapons, like particle beams, plasma and other would hit the shield not trigger the nuclear reaction. In theory (though this is never discussed) sufficient enough ordnance will break shields and this means that simple saturation could be effective. Chemical and flame weapons become central to warfare as they all effectively by pass shielding, so it is not that long range weapons are obsolete, its that Frank Herbert wanted to keep a certain feel to his universe and so chose not to dwell too much on methods that would break his chosen combat methodology.
The thinking machine army that had the honored matres fleeing back to the imperium is worth a mention. Also when Duncan becomes the ultimate kwisatz haderach and has full control of AI and humanity
The question of whether Atreides soldiers could match the Sardaukar is a fascinating one! The Sardaukar were indeed the most feared soldiers in the Imperium, known for their brutal training and unwavering loyalty to the Emperor. They were raised in the harsh conditions of Salusa Secundus, which forged them into elite warriors. Duke Leto Atreides invested heavily in training his troops, and under the guidance of skilled leaders like Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck, the Atreides soldiers became a formidable force. While they might not have reached the same level as the Sardaukar in terms of sheer ferocity and conditioning, they were highly disciplined and well-trained, earning respect and fear from their enemies. In the books and adaptations, it’s suggested that the Atreides soldiers were close to matching the Sardaukar, especially in terms of tactical effectiveness and morale. The Emperor’s fear of Duke Leto’s growing power and the potential of his army was one of the reasons for the betrayal and the subsequent attack on House Atreides. In a direct confrontation, the Sardaukar might still have the edge due to their extreme training and conditioning. However, the Atreides soldiers, with their superior leadership and strategic acumen, could potentially hold their own, especially if they had the element of surprise or advantageous terrain. It’s a testament to the strength and potential of House Atreides that they were seen as a significant threat to the Emperor’s power. _What do you think would have happened if the Atreides had more time to build their forces?_ I guess the number 1 priority was the alliance with the Fremen...I think they could have won if Duke Leto had enough time to solidify the alliance. Atreides soldiers could have learned the Fremen ambush tactics + some Fremen forces moving to Arrakeen for defensive. Their biggest problem was lack of men(they had the quality but not the numbers) and the unfamiliar environment( which is the Fremen's biggest strength actually). If they manged to stop the assault -> with the Fremen's help get the spice production on track. Duke Leto would have had the Landsraad and the Spacing Guild(C.H.O.A.M) on his side. It might be a stretch but I think he had a good change to become the Emperor.
@@bsmartr806 Well, the course of events would likely have been significantly altered. In the Dune universe, let’s explore some possibilities: One: The element of surprise is a powerful advantage in warfare. Without it, the attackers would face a more resilient and organized defense. If the defenders had advance knowledge, they could have taken defensive measures. This might include reinforcing their positions, deploying additional forces, and setting up early warning systems. Two: The defenders could also evacuate critical personnel and/or assets to safer locations. Knowing about the attack, the defenders could adjust their strategy. They might choose to engage the enemy earlier, disrupt their plans, or even launch a preemptive strike. Three: With advance warning, the defenders could gather intelligence on the attackers-understanding their capabilities, weaknesses, and objectives. This information would allow for targeted responses and countermeasures. Four: Fear and confusion would be minimized. Surprise attacks often create chaos and panic. If the defenders were aware, they could maintain morale, prevent panic, and organize a more effective response. Five: The defenders might also seek alliances or diplomatic solutions to prevent the attack altogether. The revelation of an impending attack might have political consequences. Leaders would need to make tough decisions, and public perception - Bene Gesserit, Sardaukar, Bene Tleilax, Fremen, CHOAM, Spacing Guild, Landsraad - could shift. Six: In the Dune universe, where prophecy, prescience, and destiny play significant roles, advance knowledge could alter the fabric of fate. Perhaps Paul Atreides or other prescient characters would foresee the attack and take actions to change the outcome. AND remember, the spice melange in Dune grants heightened awareness and visions, so the concept of foresight is central. Had the defenders possessed such abilities, the entire scenario might have unfolded differently. Ultimately, the unknown variables-prophecy, loyalty, and betrayal-make Dune’s universe rich and unpredictable. look here ruclips.net/video/K3iXncXy5b4/видео.html
@KRAKOA889 it would be very interesting to see Leto Atreides meet with the Fremen again and say, "The Harkonnen are coming to take Dune back and wipe out us both. We don't have the benefit of time to grow our friendship, but I hope our mutual hatred of Hakonnen is enough. Join us to fight together, or we will surely die alone." I'm also a sucker for space battles. Seeing the Atreides fleet in space, ready for battle rather than being destroyed on the ground... OH BABY that would be cool. I'm not Dune expert, and have forgotten more than I probably remember. I think they could, Sardukar were feared, but their brutality might be the main cause.
I mean, Doctor Yue's betrayal was critical in the surprise attack's success. So it makes you wonder why his wife or his immediate family not with the Atreides court/household especially after they moved to Arrakis. Also considering the Harkonnen's brutality, I think he should've considered his wife dead when he learned of her capture and being taken hostage although I haven't read the source material yet so these are all just speculation on what was shown in the new films.
@hjpotter0731 someone elsewhere said she didn't move with him. She was kidnapped and assumed killed before the move. Afterward the Harkonnen sent him a video of her alive and being tortured which made him betray Atreides.
The Fish Speakers were not near the top, they were untested in war. Leto II stated they were the best soldiers but only because they were what he needed, which were jailors and a police force, at most they put down rebellions, there were no wars as Leto had such a stranglehold on spice. The Honoured Matres were the best, Fremen then Saudarkar.
Its worth noting that the melee styled warfare changed drastically during and after God Emperor, they fell out of favour and with it also a lot of the ritualized melee warfare to more practical/utilitarian, with Miles and his companions using the lasgun to great potential by cutting swath of enemy in one bzzzt.
I'm surprised no force used a drone like craft with a las gun to wipe out a massed shielded force. Even with 50/50 odds the drone or the shielded target goes mushroom cloud. If the drone goes boom there goes all evidence on who operated it. So the great convention cant be used to prosecute the user. A hell of a first strike weapon.
Honored Matres are hands down, the most powerful human military force. Any force that can enslave humans through sexual imprinting is top dog. They took the abilities of the BG and turned them up to 11. They were ninja sex monks. 'nuff said.
@@acerdan It shows how serious house corrino is believe it when I say the Sardaukar are the real throne of the galaxy as it was under them House Corrino kept the imperium in line it was them who removed enemies and them who made the emperor a man to fear Baron Harkonen had to resort to blackmail to be able to be placed in a position to have Feud take the throne one on one with the Sardaukar Harkonens or Atreides stood no chance cause the Atreides had only a few Sardaukar like quality warriors the rest were good men but had no chance that's why the Harkonens even managed to win cause without Yue or the Sardaukar that ambush would have failed
Staying within Frank Herbert's book and canon: The strongest, though we did not get to see them, would have been the Tleilaxu "super" face dancers. Basically they were a combination of all the great warriors including Paul and Leto II. They were the actual threat before Brian decided to scrap it for the thinking machines. Frank Herbert from God Emperor on: Foreshadow super face dancers Brian Herbert: Naw it was really thinking machines and guess what they also somehow have ocular vision. It is shocking how badly Brian crapped all over his fathers work. No ships before Leto II, Bene Gesserit being altruistic in the era of Dune, IX having all the machines inside "many machines ON IX", thinking machine returning... Sorry rant over. Anyway super face dancers would be the top.
All media influences each other constantly. Warhammer probably the most famous to be influenced by absolutely everything you can think of :D. History, scifi, fantasy, myth's, legends, religion...
@@davidoffice9922 If you even imply that Star Wars ripped off Dune, you've started a ticking clock to an unwanted dissertation on Joseph Campbell. Whip out a generic laser sword, and those same people will scream "rip off" and clutch their action figures.
Not sur why drones that fired lasguns weren't a common weapon. The damage would be limited to the area directly around the shield user, with the attacker remaining many miles away.
Because the Landsraad treated it as a war crime akin to the use of house atomics. You could do it, but you'd likely end up facing the combined might of the great houses, not just whoever you were fighting to begin with.
The BG are not a military threat by themselves. Like a single BG can't do anything on the battlefield alone. The Weirding way wasn't unique to them. Many others learned it as well. However, as a manipulators they didn't have an equal, aside from Face Dancers who are still not on their level. They could manipulate entire houses and thus having armies bigger and bigger until they dominate the battlefield. "Plans, within plans, within plans..."
@nutbug445 Thank you for nice video! I never gone further than first book and now I`ve got some inspiration to go on! However I have to point that this list should be better named "Most Powerful Infantries" or "Most Powerful Fighters" rather than "Militaries". Since overall strengh of military goes from wide wariety of factors like economic power, production capacities, resources, drafting potential e.t.c. For example if Harkonnens are able to replenish their marerial and personnel losses faster than their opponents throughout the conflict, they would eventually overcome better trained military by overwhelming force.
BG vs Matres is a funni one, actually. I am pre-etty sure in book 5 they stated that Matres were few in numbers but absolutely superior to BG sisters in combat... and then in book 6 turned it around and said BG could've dealt with them, if not for their vast numbers.
Sorry to do this, but.... to believe that a society with technology that borderlines on magic and uses power shields CAN'T make a knife proof fabric OR hard armor that has no gaps or powered body armor borderlines on stupid. And, if they CANNOT make knife proof fabric, why would there be no longer swords or pikes or halberds? Gee, a energy shield seems like it would need lots of power.... like the kind of power that might be used for a powerful electric magnet to take away an opponent's metal knife? Or the kind of power that might conduct a large amount of electricity to an opponent who touched you with a metal knife. OR, power a hot tungsten blade that immediately melted other blades when they touched.
@@54tristin True, but then why not set it in a low tech fictional earth past, or another planet that was low tech and forgotten. I can't help but be taken out of a story when I see, what I consider, lazy writing, because covering high tech comes with it certain demands. If I was going to write a story surrounding a railroad (of which I know nothing), I would make damn sure I researched the hell out of it, then consulted with people who knew what I wanted to talk about. In the case of Dune, a lengthy study into medieval armor and combat tactics, discussions with martial artists and a few physicists. I would have had a couple buddies reenact some of the fight scenes, and somewhere in all of it, someone would have said, "wait a minute, If I had the longer sword, I would win." or "they can travel across the galaxy, but they can't stop a knife?"
Right but you said the machines were only more numerous not more capable,when being more numerous makes you more capable. Ultimately the Matres were driven out, making the machines the superior force.
I never understood, why the soldiers do not wear armor like chain mail or plate. Its quite easy to protect against sword or knife. In high middle age, swords became pure symbolic, as they where useless in combat.
One of the only pop-fiction universe to do Female warriors right. Dune's, Fishspeakers, Matres, & Bene Gesserits are genuinly badass and the narritive isnt forced. The Fempire would eat the later Dune universe up, however I still think they would fuck it up somehow.
Teg and the BG beat the honoured matres quite handily in the end so I don’t see how they can outrank the BG forces in the later stories. Also the Tleilaxu never fielded a military. Just face dancers to make other fight their wars for them. This was pants.
If the Fremen never leave Arrakis. Once the had training and was across the universe just like everyone else Get complacent with life. Arrakis is what kept the Fremen the Fremen at the start.
As a person who hadn't read the Novel, I see the Ixians's as the most powerful army in terms of our world realities as they have the military industrial complex also they've freedom (ixian confideracy)😂
Personal shields that go nuclear after one hit from standard weapon of the era... what could possibly go wrong? This is exactly the kind of BS that discouraged me from reading more Dune after I finished the first book. Broad strokes look good, but as soon as you start paying more attention, all you see is inconsistent mess full of stupidities.
Honestly, they could just use normal artillery. Sharpnel cant pen shield sure, but the the shock wave is enough to bruise or internal bleeding. Rendering them disabled. Then, send in the foot man to collect heads.
Sadly you don’t interpret the lore very well regarding laz guns shooting shields. Yes the reaction of a laz beam hitting a shield will create a nuclear explosion but there is only a chance that the explosion will be inside the shield. In short a laz gun crew shooting a shield is absolutely going to die, but their target has to be very unlucky to die as well.
Mexico tried women policemen. Let us just say that Frank Herbert's Dune legacy is greatly mistaken when it comes to the assumptions regarding the Fish Speakers.
Frank Herbert's incredibly stupid shield is perhaps the greatest weakness in the entire story. So, all I need do is send ONE fanatical assailant to my enemy's home, get the enemy soldiers, just ONE of them to turn on their shield, and use a laser to wipe out the entire region? Deal! Has to be one of the dumbest story elements of all time. Yet nobody ever mentions it.
@@JoeSevy That's covered by The Great Convention. After the Imperial capital planet was nuked, all intentional nuclear attacks against human targets were strictly forbidden. If they suspect you doing that, the Bene Gesserit will send a Truth Sayer to investigate and the Spacing Guild will cut you off, then all of the great Houses will be obligated to destroy yours. That said, the new movies do a poor job of explaining all this. That scene where the Harkonnens chase Duncan's ornitopter through the streets with a lasgun was extremely reckless and did not occur in the book.
@@thomriley1036 Read the books quite a long time ago. Truth Sayer only works on people who know the truth. Specifically, it's stupid on stilts as regards the Fremen. One Fremen gets one lasgun and shoots one Harkonen, or hell, just shoots the main shield around the Harkonen base on Arakis. It's a completely unworkable scenario for any number of reasons. Shielding simply has no place in the story except as a rational for using swords. Tech would simply be adapted to the situation to make a weapon that defeats the shield. He even introduces weapons that actually DO defeat shields. One of the great powers was simply going to figure out how to obviate this defense in an automated fashion and rule the universe. My money would be on the Ixians. Don't get me wrong. I still love the story. It's just not "sci-fi". It's a fantasy/philosophy story in a fantasy universe. Which is fine. Watching the first movie I had the distinct feeling that I was the only one who knew what was going on, including the screenplay writers. If you think the hole was plugged up sufficiently, I bow to your expertise. Strange though it may sound, I don't believe my reading all the books (I think) qualifies me as any sort of expert in the subject.
@@JoeSevy Don't get me wrong. All of this depends entirely upon a fictional tech called the Holtzman Effect, so it's not like we can run experiments to determine just how effective/stupid all these notions are. I do know that the lasgun/shield explosion is described in the text as unpredictable, meaning that a thermonuclear detonation could occur at any point along the beam, killing either the shooter, the target or both and everyone in the vicinity. It's not something that can be reliably deployed or expected to work without consequences. On a purely sociopolitical level, the Holtzman shield tech is a brilliant plot device to explain the neo-feudalistic stranglehold over the populations of planetary feifdoms. Only those with sufficient power and resources can afford to deploy these shields or laguns on any meaningful level. But, those who can will immediately gain supremacy over those who cannot, effectively ending any uprising before it begins. Without the shields, every planet would be in a constant state of rebellion, or at least more capable of resistance to the likes of the Harkonnens. The intangible in all of this comes down to the Guild Monopoly on space travel and the stratified castes of the Imperium itself. The Fremen have been in rebellion agianst the Landsraad for so long that it's simply their status quo. They've been driven off many planets and subjected to horrendous persecution since before their predecessors left old Earth. Sure, the Fremen have the means to set off the shields of their enemies, but to what end? They'd be overwhelmed by the Imperial response in short order, if not exterminated outright as a perceived threat to Spice production. Their tactic was to lay low and hide their capabilities through bribes and trickery... until they decided not to, and that's what brings us to 'Dune Messiah'. I've often heard the argument that somebody somewhere would find a way around the shields, but again, they already have. The sword and pike. The nobles are indeed fighting one another, but their first order of business is the maintenance of their own power over their subjects. They're not interested in expending their wealth in the development of new technology, they want to keep things exactly as they are, with their own blood sitting at the top of the social pyramid, and the Bene Gesserit are helping them do it for their own convoluted reasons. All that said, Lightsabers are kind of dumb when you get right down to it, and how would you even use that sort of weapon unless you're already some sort of space wizard? Worse, why wouldn't someone stop shooting at them when they know they're just going to deflect every blaster shot? None of this is an argument, of course, but I do enjoy the discussion of it.
@@thomriley1036 For sure. Yes. Lightsabers are dumb as magic rocks in a magic box. But they look cool, sound cool, and are touted as an 'elite' weapon. Holzman shields would be countered by a robotic miniature tank that runs around simply grabbing soldiers and crushing them, or just running them over. It's really just a mechanism to get to a medieval romantic fantasy society. The real fantasy involved in these two universes is positing a technologically stagnant society, though in both cases the threat of innovation looms as the tipping point that might destroy the entire societal order. The point of Dune has nothing to do with the "story" of the quisach haderach, or any of the fascinating societal segments which are presented. It's a philosophical exercise in exploring the meaning of knowledge itself. And in contrast, what free will means in the context of knowledge. Free will must always imply uncertainty. What does this mean if there is an omniscient being? One who can actually know the future demonstrates that the future exists as nothing more than an extension of the present. Paul muses whether he sees the future, or creates it. Unable to NOT see the future he undertakes vast fantastically violent and tyrannical measures to prevent the only other future he can see: The elimination of all life. Bear in mind that I read this longer ago than most people in the world have even been alive. My distant memories may not do justice to the books. Comment: I loved the first movie back in 84. I was completely taken in by the grandeur and the portrayal of the characters. The latest two movies however move into the realm of fascination. Lady Jessica seems almost perfect. Reflecting the sinister Bene Geserit training, though Herbert wrote her character as quite significant, I don't feel like the Jessica from the book does justice to the one from the film. She is magnificent, and I think exactly what Herbert would have portrayed had he been able to. By comparison Paul, and virtually everyone else is little more than sand being moved from place to place by Jessica. There is a war going on. But Paul, the Fremen and many others are mere pawns. This is the story, not of Paul, but of Jessica. You are clearly well versed in Dune lore. What is your take on Jessica's portrayal in the two films?
@@JoeSevy To answer your question, Lady Jessica is perhaps the most important character in the entire series. (Although, the Duncan(s) and Leto II also have legitimate claims to that title.) Every time one of these Dune movies/miniseries come out, everyone starts discussing the intentions of Paul, because he's the star of the "Hero's Journey" and all that. But, then the tourists usually just stop at book 1 and fail to realize that Paul's story was only a small part of the bigger picture. Sure, he's central to the plot, but he's basically born on rails to fulfill a manufactured prophecy. Right now, a good many people are jumping to conclusions in the opposite direction by calling him the "True Villain" of Dune, as if every character is one big moral binary. Jessica, on the other hand, set all the events of 'Dune' in motion. If she had just stuck to the script and done her job, she'd have delivered an Atreides daughter who would've married Feyd for political reasons. The Sisterhood would've had their pet Kwizatz Haderach within a generation or two... But, all know that that didn't happen. Jessica went over everyone's heads and basically seized power. Much as Gurney was once a slave of Harkonnens who became the governor of Geidi Prime/Gammu, Jessica went to Caladan as a concubine and became the mother of God in the hearts and minds of countless souls. Francesca Annis is still the picture of Lady Jessica in my mind's eye, but her character seems to fall away from the plot towards the end of the film. Not her fault though, as the ending of Dune (1984) has a lot of pacing issues. (Also, when did Paul learn to control the weather?) Rebecca Ferguson's Jessica follows the opposite trajectory; becoming an uncanny force to be reckoned with after her Spice Agony ascension. She did an excellent job of conveying the loss of humanity that comes with transcension to something else. Still, I would've liked to have seen more of her romance with the Duke depicted on screen. I'm not sure if automated "tanks" would really be the solution to Shielded Infantry, but the books do mention "Crusher" ships that descend from orbit to smash shielded targets. Apparently, the Harknonnens deployed Crushers against the Atreides when they seized Arrakis, but I've never seen those in a movie. The Butlerian edicts prohibit unmanned mechanical development. I suppose that they could be remote-controlled like a Hunter-Seeker, but that has its own logistical hurdles to overcome. The Spacing Guild would still have to deliver them to the battlefield, where they'd be vulnerable to enemy air power during deployment. Still, the Harkonnens did find a creative use for "antique" artillery pieces, so it's really all in how you'd use them.
To be fair to the 40k basement dwellers, Frank Herbert also had an icky cum slathered perspective on womanhood that some would describe as pretty sexist. If anything, the 40k all female factions and named characters are alot more empowering then the bene gesserit or honored matres lol
Really? A woman army? I thought this was about Dune not some sexual fantasy. Also in real life, a man would wipe the floor with a woman in a fight. That's why men are the fighters.
Arguably the strongest army in the Dune universe are the Fish Speakers. These warriors have been genetically selected for over 3,000 years using the genes of the Empire's most powerful warriors, including the offspring of Duncan Idaho's countless Gholas, descended from the best of the Harkonnens, Atraides, Fremen, and even Sardaukar. Leto II really surrounded himself with the most evolved elements in the human genome.
Honored Matres
@@frankaiello6887sure because of their abilities but then I’d say the second machine empire(which is what caused the matres to flee in the first place) are a more capable force then they are
@@aidanlela4872 Not more capable. Just more in number and without moral or ethical restraint. The Honored Matres knew they didn't have the numbers to stand up against the machines, so they ran to get reinforcements.
@@swordmonkey6635 even when the matres reached the old imperium their united forces weren’t enough. And having numerical superiority means you’re more capable. It’s not about efficiency, it’s about efficacy
@@aidanlela4872 Military history has shown that sheer numbers alone doesn't mean victory. Technology, strategy and tactics are huge force multiplies.
The second machine empire is by far the best. The honored matres were almost unstoppable compared to the old imperium but they fled for their lives when the machines struck
Think in the original books.They fled from face dancers.
@@danielneshev2088 I keep thinking that they were running from a mad-evil Kwisatz Haderach. That's why Leto II had been creating a human invisible to prescience (Siona), and that's why matres returned to Old Imperium. A hostile Kwisatz Haderach would've been an okay final villain. Much better than robots.
@impersonal6650 the face dancers that appear at the end of chapter house kind of fill that role not quite a Kwisatz Hederach but probably something even stronger
Many don't factor in the sheer scale and societal aspect of warfare in Dune.
The Guild monopoly and Great Convention of the Landsraad prevent a lot of what people have come to expect from a Sci-Fi war. It isn't until at least Heretics of Dune that an alternative to Spice-grown Navigators is developed, so for thousands of years everyone was forced to play by the rules if they wanted to buy a ticket to leave their own planet.
Skirmishes between rival Houses would have to be smaller-scale "Wars of Assassins"; unless the Emperor, Bene Gesserits, CHOAM and/or the Spacing Guild itself signed off on it. And then later, the God Emperor.
This is very true, sometimes they could get a planet to fight over, or a section of a planet but for the most part they had to sit around and wait if they got mad at someone.
Its a shame Frank couldn't have lived longer to finish his saga but man what a universe he shaped.
Indeed. If anyone's head is needed in a Futurama jar, it's Frank's. 👍
But... Didnt he finish it? He died 2 years after his last book release or something like that. He set an open ending to the story, free to interpretation
But... Didnt he finish it? He died 2 years after his last book release or something like that. He set an open ending to the story, free to interpretation
@@TheNicopy I don't know it felt like there was more too the story. Marty and Daniel seemed so vague but you could be right.
Su hijo continuó y termino la saga
No mention of the Sword-masters of Ginaz? Duncan Idaho a Sword-master plays a HUGE role in the books, Not to mention a Sword-master was ranked better than a Sardurkar and could even match or beat a Bene Gesserit. Granted they are a school and a House, a Sword-master is still a massive force multiplier.
They are not a military. They are individual warriors hiring themselves out to other house in influential leadership and training positions.
The Sword Masters of Ginaz weren't a military force. They were warriors capable of achieving that rank and title, but they were individuals. Some Great Houses used them as personal guards, commandos, and instructors like Duncan Idaho. Sure, they were a threat on the battlefield and could change a battle, they were not a military force and don't count.
The Sword-Masters were a relatively small group and arguably can't be considered a "military" but is more of a training institution. They are more like the Green Berets: force multipliers and specialists attached to other militaries to instruct regular soldiers and be used for special missions.
@@swordmonkey6635 Green Berets are SOF groups that can fight in divisions if needed for asymmetrical warfare such as in the Iraq War. One such battle with Green Berets fighting as infantry teams attached to a Peshmerga general's force of the Iraqi Kurdistan Government to fight against Saddam Hussein's forces. If you didn't know, the Iraqi Kurdistan Government is an autonomous region of Iraq established since 1992 which allied with the U.S. to take down both Saddam Huessein and Osama bin Laden. Cool battle which was documented in detail with journalists right there in the midst of it, and the only casualties that the Peshmerga and Green Berets took was a blue on blue incident with the air force
Lately, though (more than a few months ago) Green Berets were sent to Taiwan to train and supervise the Taiwanese military
@@loafoffloof3420 Green Berets were the first US military to be sent to SE Asia in the 1960s to train and supervise foreign troops. They were there as "advisors" but got their hands dirty from time to time.
The thing is, that Frank herbert desired a very specific combat system, that harkened back to ancient times and that is why close combat is the preferred method of engagement in Dune.
Shields many think are somehow infallible against high-speed ballistics and that because lasguns are mutually assured destruction that other methods of long range combat just became obsolete.
This also follows the implied invincibility of shields unless they are slowly penetrated, which many take as fact and cease to think beyond that, because the books and the universe are so great that this totally passes through them and don't bat an eye.
But even in Dune and in the new movies in particular we see a few methods that are effective at dealing with shields.
From the squash head slow penetrators used against the Atreides frigates and the smaller missile varieties used by the Fremen against the shielded Harkonnen gunships, to the dart penetrators used by Doctor Yue against Duke Leto and one used by a Sardaukar, the universe itself tells us that long range combat is alive and well.
Long story short shields can be beaten by specialized long range weapons and more can be created, but this takes away from the close combat doctrine and intent of Frank herbert so people tend to forget this.
Examples of weapons that could take shielded enemies from other franchises are, the Boltgun of Warhammer, because the projectiles are self-propelled, there is a short time, where they would hit the shield without exploding, then slow down, penetrate the shield and explode within the shield confines.
Squash head penetrators are meant to maintain a lot of kinetic energy even at relatively slow speeds, so they could still transfer a lot of energy after entering the shield at a relatively slow velocity.
Monomolecular net weapons, that surround the target would slowly encompass the enemy and deal devastating damage even at insanely slow speeds.
Non-Laser based weapons, like particle beams, plasma and other would hit the shield not trigger the nuclear reaction.
In theory (though this is never discussed) sufficient enough ordnance will break shields and this means that simple saturation could be effective.
Chemical and flame weapons become central to warfare as they all effectively by pass shielding, so it is not that long range weapons are obsolete, its that Frank Herbert wanted to keep a certain feel to his universe and so chose not to dwell too much on methods that would break his chosen combat methodology.
The thinking machine army that had the honored matres fleeing back to the imperium is worth a mention. Also when Duncan becomes the ultimate kwisatz haderach and has full control of AI and humanity
W for mentioning Fish speakers and the militarized bene gesserit tho
The question of whether Atreides soldiers could match the Sardaukar is a fascinating one!
The Sardaukar were indeed the most feared soldiers in the Imperium, known for their brutal training and unwavering loyalty to the Emperor. They were raised in the harsh conditions of Salusa Secundus, which forged them into elite warriors.
Duke Leto Atreides invested heavily in training his troops, and under the guidance of skilled leaders like Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck, the Atreides soldiers became a formidable force. While they might not have reached the same level as the Sardaukar in terms of sheer ferocity and conditioning, they were highly disciplined and well-trained, earning respect and fear from their enemies.
In the books and adaptations, it’s suggested that the Atreides soldiers were close to matching the Sardaukar, especially in terms of tactical effectiveness and morale. The Emperor’s fear of Duke Leto’s growing power and the potential of his army was one of the reasons for the betrayal and the subsequent attack on House Atreides.
In a direct confrontation, the Sardaukar might still have the edge due to their extreme training and conditioning. However, the Atreides soldiers, with their superior leadership and strategic acumen, could potentially hold their own, especially if they had the element of surprise or advantageous terrain.
It’s a testament to the strength and potential of House Atreides that they were seen as a significant threat to the Emperor’s power.
_What do you think would have happened if the Atreides had more time to build their forces?_
I guess the number 1 priority was the alliance with the Fremen...I think they could have won if Duke Leto had enough time to solidify the alliance. Atreides soldiers could have learned the Fremen ambush tactics + some Fremen forces moving to Arrakeen for defensive. Their biggest problem was lack of men(they had the quality but not the numbers) and the unfamiliar environment( which is the Fremen's biggest strength actually).
If they manged to stop the assault -> with the Fremen's help get the spice production on track. Duke Leto would have had the Landsraad and the Spacing Guild(C.H.O.A.M) on his side. It might be a stretch but I think he had a good change to become the Emperor.
Or what would have happened if they knew about the incoming surprise attack?
@@bsmartr806 Well, the course of events would likely have been significantly altered. In the Dune universe, let’s explore some possibilities:
One:
The element of surprise is a powerful advantage in warfare. Without it, the attackers would face a more resilient and organized defense.
If the defenders had advance knowledge, they could have taken defensive measures. This might include reinforcing their positions, deploying additional forces, and setting up early warning systems.
Two:
The defenders could also evacuate critical personnel and/or assets to safer locations.
Knowing about the attack, the defenders could adjust their strategy. They might choose to engage the enemy earlier, disrupt their plans, or even launch a preemptive strike.
Three:
With advance warning, the defenders could gather intelligence on the attackers-understanding their capabilities, weaknesses, and objectives.
This information would allow for targeted responses and countermeasures.
Four:
Fear and confusion would be minimized.
Surprise attacks often create chaos and panic. If the defenders were aware, they could maintain morale, prevent panic, and organize a more effective response.
Five:
The defenders might also seek alliances or diplomatic solutions to prevent the attack altogether.
The revelation of an impending attack might have political consequences. Leaders would need to make tough decisions, and public perception - Bene Gesserit, Sardaukar, Bene Tleilax, Fremen, CHOAM, Spacing Guild, Landsraad - could shift.
Six:
In the Dune universe, where prophecy, prescience, and destiny play significant roles, advance knowledge could alter the fabric of fate.
Perhaps Paul Atreides or other prescient characters would foresee the attack and take actions to change the outcome.
AND remember, the spice melange in Dune grants heightened awareness and visions, so the concept of foresight is central. Had the defenders possessed such abilities, the entire scenario might have unfolded differently.
Ultimately, the unknown variables-prophecy, loyalty, and betrayal-make Dune’s universe rich and unpredictable.
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@KRAKOA889 it would be very interesting to see Leto Atreides meet with the Fremen again and say, "The Harkonnen are coming to take Dune back and wipe out us both. We don't have the benefit of time to grow our friendship, but I hope our mutual hatred of Hakonnen is enough. Join us to fight together, or we will surely die alone."
I'm also a sucker for space battles. Seeing the Atreides fleet in space, ready for battle rather than being destroyed on the ground... OH BABY that would be cool.
I'm not Dune expert, and have forgotten more than I probably remember. I think they could, Sardukar were feared, but their brutality might be the main cause.
I mean, Doctor Yue's betrayal was critical in the surprise attack's success. So it makes you wonder why his wife or his immediate family not with the Atreides court/household especially after they moved to Arrakis.
Also considering the Harkonnen's brutality, I think he should've considered his wife dead when he learned of her capture and being taken hostage although I haven't read the source material yet so these are all just speculation on what was shown in the new films.
@hjpotter0731 someone elsewhere said she didn't move with him. She was kidnapped and assumed killed before the move. Afterward the Harkonnen sent him a video of her alive and being tortured which made him betray Atreides.
The Fish Speakers were not near the top, they were untested in war. Leto II stated they were the best soldiers but only because they were what he needed, which were jailors and a police force, at most they put down rebellions, there were no wars as Leto had such a stranglehold on spice. The Honoured Matres were the best, Fremen then Saudarkar.
So glad to see people still doing Dune content ❤
Its worth noting that the melee styled warfare changed drastically during and after God Emperor, they fell out of favour and with it also a lot of the ritualized melee warfare to more practical/utilitarian, with Miles and his companions using the lasgun to great potential by cutting swath of enemy in one bzzzt.
Even with shields you'd think that explosive weapons would still be extremely useful even in HtH combat to disrupt tight formations
I'm surprised no force used a drone like craft with a las gun to wipe out a massed shielded force. Even with 50/50 odds the drone or the shielded target goes mushroom cloud.
If the drone goes boom there goes all evidence on who operated it. So the great convention cant be used to prosecute the user. A hell of a first strike weapon.
They are, the Harkonnens used ancient explosive ordinance in their siege to Arrakeen.
They had shoulder mounted rockets in the films
@@cesarespinozaspainThey can't have sophisticated computers
@@vampirecount3880 yes, but that's treated as something unusual. Explosives should be used on a smaller level all the time
Honored Matres are hands down, the most powerful human military force. Any force that can enslave humans through sexual imprinting is top dog. They took the abilities of the BG and turned them up to 11. They were ninja sex monks. 'nuff said.
Ah, I see you're man of culture as well.
We are Sardaukar
The emperor's blades
Those who stand against us fall
The emperor commands it
It is done
Yeah, I loved that Scene. They are bad asses.
@@acerdan It shows how serious house corrino is believe it when I say the Sardaukar are the real throne of the galaxy as it was under them House Corrino kept the imperium in line it was them who removed enemies and them who made the emperor a man to fear Baron Harkonen had to resort to blackmail to be able to be placed in a position to have Feud take the throne one on one with the Sardaukar Harkonens or Atreides stood no chance cause the Atreides had only a few Sardaukar like quality warriors the rest were good men but had no chance that's why the Harkonens even managed to win cause without Yue or the Sardaukar that ambush would have failed
Dune is infinitely better than Star Wars, no hate but this is honestly just so much more awesome ! I need to read all of Frank’s literature.
Staying within Frank Herbert's book and canon:
The strongest, though we did not get to see them, would have been the Tleilaxu "super" face dancers. Basically they were a combination of all the great warriors including Paul and Leto II. They were the actual threat before Brian decided to scrap it for the thinking machines.
Frank Herbert from God Emperor on: Foreshadow super face dancers
Brian Herbert: Naw it was really thinking machines and guess what they also somehow have ocular vision.
It is shocking how badly Brian crapped all over his fathers work. No ships before Leto II, Bene Gesserit being altruistic in the era of Dune, IX having all the machines inside "many machines ON IX", thinking machine returning...
Sorry rant over. Anyway super face dancers would be the top.
its FREMen not Freeman mate
Same thing.
The way they say it has changed. It is freeman originally.
Chill bro. Thats opinion
@@bottlethrower1544 It's not an opinion. The "free men" was in some early draft. Not in anything that was released. They're Fremen.
Damn dude is. Very influential series as it I fluency a lot of series..star wars ..Warhammer...mass effect
All media influences each other constantly. Warhammer probably the most famous to be influenced by absolutely everything you can think of :D. History, scifi, fantasy, myth's, legends, religion...
@@davidoffice9922 If you even imply that Star Wars ripped off Dune, you've started a ticking clock to an unwanted dissertation on Joseph Campbell.
Whip out a generic laser sword, and those same people will scream "rip off" and clutch their action figures.
Soldiers with extreme training from childhood and combat experience < Swifties.
That click sound to end the recording at the end. Cherry on top
The Tleilaxu never fielded a military of their own. They used face dancers to make other factions fight for them.
I cant stop laughing over the name Fish Speakers xD
Im pretty sure Bashar Teg rates as at least 2nd strongest army in the Dune universe. At least after hes had lunch.
Breakfast lunch dinner and tea. With his calorie intake and burn
Not sur why drones that fired lasguns weren't a common weapon. The damage would be limited to the area directly around the shield user, with the attacker remaining many miles away.
Because the Landsraad treated it as a war crime akin to the use of house atomics. You could do it, but you'd likely end up facing the combined might of the great houses, not just whoever you were fighting to begin with.
The Bashir destroyed the Honored Matres leadership in one fell swoop.
The BG are not a military threat by themselves. Like a single BG can't do anything on the battlefield alone. The Weirding way wasn't unique to them. Many others learned it as well. However, as a manipulators they didn't have an equal, aside from Face Dancers who are still not on their level. They could manipulate entire houses and thus having armies bigger and bigger until they dominate the battlefield.
"Plans, within plans, within plans..."
@nutbug445 Thank you for nice video! I never gone further than first book and now I`ve got some inspiration to go on!
However I have to point that this list should be better named "Most Powerful Infantries" or "Most Powerful Fighters" rather than "Militaries". Since overall strengh of military goes from wide wariety of factors like economic power, production capacities, resources, drafting potential e.t.c. For example if Harkonnens are able to replenish their marerial and personnel losses faster than their opponents throughout the conflict, they would eventually overcome better trained military by overwhelming force.
I love the harkonnen and atreides armors
I think you need to read more Dune.
the Bashar is literally a one man army
BG vs Matres is a funni one, actually. I am pre-etty sure in book 5 they stated that Matres were few in numbers but absolutely superior to BG sisters in combat... and then in book 6 turned it around and said BG could've dealt with them, if not for their vast numbers.
You forgot the real number 1: the Valkyries of the New Sisterhood.
Sorry to do this, but.... to believe that a society with technology that borderlines on magic and uses power shields CAN'T make a knife proof fabric OR hard armor that has no gaps or powered body armor borderlines on stupid. And, if they CANNOT make knife proof fabric, why would there be no longer swords or pikes or halberds? Gee, a energy shield seems like it would need lots of power.... like the kind of power that might be used for a powerful electric magnet to take away an opponent's metal knife? Or the kind of power that might conduct a large amount of electricity to an opponent who touched you with a metal knife. OR, power a hot tungsten blade that immediately melted other blades when they touched.
It’s fictional, the story is not about the gear but the people and the politics.
@@54tristin True, but then why not set it in a low tech fictional earth past, or another planet that was low tech and forgotten. I can't help but be taken out of a story when I see, what I consider, lazy writing, because covering high tech comes with it certain demands. If I was going to write a story surrounding a railroad (of which I know nothing), I would make damn sure I researched the hell out of it, then consulted with people who knew what I wanted to talk about. In the case of Dune, a lengthy study into medieval armor and combat tactics, discussions with martial artists and a few physicists. I would have had a couple buddies reenact some of the fight scenes, and somewhere in all of it, someone would have said, "wait a minute, If I had the longer sword, I would win." or "they can travel across the galaxy, but they can't stop a knife?"
Right but you said the machines were only more numerous not more capable,when being more numerous makes you more capable. Ultimately the Matres were driven out, making the machines the superior force.
You mispronounced every Proper Noun and Name in the Dune Universe. The 1984 David Lynch film have the Proper pronunciation as per Frank Herbert
A great comment that inexplicably gets 1 up vote over a month. It's odd though how Harkonnen seems to now have 2 acceptable pronunciations.
The chapter names seem to have typos or whatever those are..."atres army" "harken army" "ian military". Automatically created?
Great video, I like your content!
I never understood, why the soldiers do not wear armor like chain mail or plate. Its quite easy to protect against sword or knife. In high middle age, swords became pure symbolic, as they where useless in combat.
They're wearing armor on top of their shields
One of the only pop-fiction universe to do Female warriors right. Dune's, Fishspeakers, Matres, & Bene Gesserits are genuinly badass and the narritive isnt forced. The Fempire would eat the later Dune universe up, however I still think they would fuck it up somehow.
You did forget armies of great houses. Why? Because they are not in the movie. 😂
The problem with the fremen is without air support there doomed they can't swim 😂
Teg and the BG beat the honoured matres quite handily in the end so I don’t see how they can outrank the BG forces in the later stories.
Also the Tleilaxu never fielded a military. Just face dancers to make other fight their wars for them.
This was pants.
I am tired of those who thinks they know something about Dune but never read the books.
Okay? If you’re so knowledgeable why don’t you make your own rankings for us to discuss about?
If the Fremen never leave Arrakis. Once the had training and was across the universe just like everyone else
Get complacent with life. Arrakis is what kept the Fremen the Fremen at the start.
Why do the fremen look like cops from the lower levels of Coruscant?
This list is so wrong
Teg Atreides could beat the lot single handed
As a person who hadn't read the Novel, I see the Ixians's as the most powerful army in terms of our world realities as they have the military industrial complex also they've freedom (ixian confideracy)😂
Personal shields that go nuclear after one hit from standard weapon of the era... what could possibly go wrong? This is exactly the kind of BS that discouraged me from reading more Dune after I finished the first book. Broad strokes look good, but as soon as you start paying more attention, all you see is inconsistent mess full of stupidities.
you would think that effect would lead to some very powerful weapons and no one would need family atomics
Doom guy will be my hero
Duncan was alone no 1.
Make a weaker las gun so the explosion can be less.
Honestly, they could just use normal artillery.
Sharpnel cant pen shield sure, but the the shock wave is enough to bruise or internal bleeding. Rendering them disabled. Then, send in the foot man to collect heads.
it's Fremen not Freemen
13:38 Hubba-hubba! 😯🤤😍
Wow, i didn't know that Dune was so hardcore femSom oriented 😊. Hard pass from me but to each their own i guess.
Sadly you don’t interpret the lore very well regarding laz guns shooting shields. Yes the reaction of a laz beam hitting a shield will create a nuclear explosion but there is only a chance that the explosion will be inside the shield.
In short a laz gun crew shooting a shield is absolutely going to die, but their target has to be very unlucky to die as well.
MGRS MGRS NRF NRF
Prime sardukar solo them all the sardukar from the movies was the weakest version of sardukar
You are all wrong. Space marines are strongest.
Sardukar si best warriors of galaxy 🙄
Martinez
Thuram
Mkhitaryan
Çalhanoglu
Barella
DiMarco
Dumfries
Bastoni
de Vrij
Pavard
Sommer
Bro used ai for the script ong
Mexico tried women policemen. Let us just say that Frank Herbert's Dune legacy is greatly mistaken when it comes to the assumptions regarding the Fish Speakers.
My ears popped every time I heard "free men", but "gorilla tactics" knocked me off my chair. Is this some AI bullshit or what?
untrue
Frank Herbert's incredibly stupid shield is perhaps the greatest weakness in the entire story. So, all I need do is send ONE fanatical assailant to my enemy's home, get the enemy soldiers, just ONE of them to turn on their shield, and use a laser to wipe out the entire region? Deal!
Has to be one of the dumbest story elements of all time. Yet nobody ever mentions it.
@@JoeSevy That's covered by The Great Convention. After the Imperial capital planet was nuked, all intentional nuclear attacks against human targets were strictly forbidden.
If they suspect you doing that, the Bene Gesserit will send a Truth Sayer to investigate and the Spacing Guild will cut you off, then all of the great Houses will be obligated to destroy yours.
That said, the new movies do a poor job of explaining all this. That scene where the Harkonnens chase Duncan's ornitopter through the streets with a lasgun was extremely reckless and did not occur in the book.
@@thomriley1036 Read the books quite a long time ago. Truth Sayer only works on people who know the truth. Specifically, it's stupid on stilts as regards the Fremen. One Fremen gets one lasgun and shoots one Harkonen, or hell, just shoots the main shield around the Harkonen base on Arakis.
It's a completely unworkable scenario for any number of reasons. Shielding simply has no place in the story except as a rational for using swords.
Tech would simply be adapted to the situation to make a weapon that defeats the shield. He even introduces weapons that actually DO defeat shields.
One of the great powers was simply going to figure out how to obviate this defense in an automated fashion and rule the universe. My money would be on the Ixians.
Don't get me wrong. I still love the story. It's just not "sci-fi". It's a fantasy/philosophy story in a fantasy universe. Which is fine. Watching the first movie I had the distinct feeling that I was the only one who knew what was going on, including the screenplay writers.
If you think the hole was plugged up sufficiently, I bow to your expertise. Strange though it may sound, I don't believe my reading all the books (I think) qualifies me as any sort of expert in the subject.
@@JoeSevy Don't get me wrong. All of this depends entirely upon a fictional tech called the Holtzman Effect, so it's not like we can run experiments to determine just how effective/stupid all these notions are.
I do know that the lasgun/shield explosion is described in the text as unpredictable, meaning that a thermonuclear detonation could occur at any point along the beam, killing either the shooter, the target or both and everyone in the vicinity. It's not something that can be reliably deployed or expected to work without consequences.
On a purely sociopolitical level, the Holtzman shield tech is a brilliant plot device to explain the neo-feudalistic stranglehold over the populations of planetary feifdoms. Only those with sufficient power and resources can afford to deploy these shields or laguns on any meaningful level. But, those who can will immediately gain supremacy over those who cannot, effectively ending any uprising before it begins. Without the shields, every planet would be in a constant state of rebellion, or at least more capable of resistance to the likes of the Harkonnens.
The intangible in all of this comes down to the Guild Monopoly on space travel and the stratified castes of the Imperium itself. The Fremen have been in rebellion agianst the Landsraad for so long that it's simply their status quo. They've been driven off many planets and subjected to horrendous persecution since before their predecessors left old Earth.
Sure, the Fremen have the means to set off the shields of their enemies, but to what end? They'd be overwhelmed by the Imperial response in short order, if not exterminated outright as a perceived threat to Spice production. Their tactic was to lay low and hide their capabilities through bribes and trickery... until they decided not to, and that's what brings us to 'Dune Messiah'.
I've often heard the argument that somebody somewhere would find a way around the shields, but again, they already have. The sword and pike.
The nobles are indeed fighting one another, but their first order of business is the maintenance of their own power over their subjects. They're not interested in expending their wealth in the development of new technology, they want to keep things exactly as they are, with their own blood sitting at the top of the social pyramid, and the Bene Gesserit are helping them do it for their own convoluted reasons.
All that said, Lightsabers are kind of dumb when you get right down to it, and how would you even use that sort of weapon unless you're already some sort of space wizard? Worse, why wouldn't someone stop shooting at them when they know they're just going to deflect every blaster shot?
None of this is an argument, of course, but I do enjoy the discussion of it.
@@thomriley1036 For sure. Yes. Lightsabers are dumb as magic rocks in a magic box. But they look cool, sound cool, and are touted as an 'elite' weapon.
Holzman shields would be countered by a robotic miniature tank that runs around simply grabbing soldiers and crushing them, or just running them over.
It's really just a mechanism to get to a medieval romantic fantasy society.
The real fantasy involved in these two universes is positing a technologically stagnant society, though in both cases the threat of innovation looms as the tipping point that might destroy the entire societal order.
The point of Dune has nothing to do with the "story" of the quisach haderach, or any of the fascinating societal segments which are presented. It's a philosophical exercise in exploring the meaning of knowledge itself. And in contrast, what free will means in the context of knowledge.
Free will must always imply uncertainty. What does this mean if there is an omniscient being? One who can actually know the future demonstrates that the future exists as nothing more than an extension of the present.
Paul muses whether he sees the future, or creates it. Unable to NOT see the future he undertakes vast fantastically violent and tyrannical measures to prevent the only other future he can see: The elimination of all life.
Bear in mind that I read this longer ago than most people in the world have even been alive. My distant memories may not do justice to the books.
Comment: I loved the first movie back in 84. I was completely taken in by the grandeur and the portrayal of the characters. The latest two movies however move into the realm of fascination. Lady Jessica seems almost perfect. Reflecting the sinister Bene Geserit training, though Herbert wrote her character as quite significant, I don't feel like the Jessica from the book does justice to the one from the film. She is magnificent, and I think exactly what Herbert would have portrayed had he been able to.
By comparison Paul, and virtually everyone else is little more than sand being moved from place to place by Jessica. There is a war going on. But Paul, the Fremen and many others are mere pawns. This is the story, not of Paul, but of Jessica.
You are clearly well versed in Dune lore. What is your take on Jessica's portrayal in the two films?
@@JoeSevy To answer your question, Lady Jessica is perhaps the most important character in the entire series. (Although, the Duncan(s) and Leto II also have legitimate claims to that title.)
Every time one of these Dune movies/miniseries come out, everyone starts discussing the intentions of Paul, because he's the star of the "Hero's Journey" and all that. But, then the tourists usually just stop at book 1 and fail to realize that Paul's story was only a small part of the bigger picture. Sure, he's central to the plot, but he's basically born on rails to fulfill a manufactured prophecy. Right now, a good many people are jumping to conclusions in the opposite direction by calling him the "True Villain" of Dune, as if every character is one big moral binary.
Jessica, on the other hand, set all the events of 'Dune' in motion. If she had just stuck to the script and done her job, she'd have delivered an Atreides daughter who would've married Feyd for political reasons. The Sisterhood would've had their pet Kwizatz Haderach within a generation or two... But, all know that that didn't happen. Jessica went over everyone's heads and basically seized power. Much as Gurney was once a slave of Harkonnens who became the governor of Geidi Prime/Gammu, Jessica went to Caladan as a concubine and became the mother of God in the hearts and minds of countless souls.
Francesca Annis is still the picture of Lady Jessica in my mind's eye, but her character seems to fall away from the plot towards the end of the film. Not her fault though, as the ending of Dune (1984) has a lot of pacing issues. (Also, when did Paul learn to control the weather?) Rebecca Ferguson's Jessica follows the opposite trajectory; becoming an uncanny force to be reckoned with after her Spice Agony ascension. She did an excellent job of conveying the loss of humanity that comes with transcension to something else. Still, I would've liked to have seen more of her romance with the Duke depicted on screen.
I'm not sure if automated "tanks" would really be the solution to Shielded Infantry, but the books do mention "Crusher" ships that descend from orbit to smash shielded targets. Apparently, the Harknonnens deployed Crushers against the Atreides when they seized Arrakis, but I've never seen those in a movie.
The Butlerian edicts prohibit unmanned mechanical development. I suppose that they could be remote-controlled like a Hunter-Seeker, but that has its own logistical hurdles to overcome. The Spacing Guild would still have to deliver them to the battlefield, where they'd be vulnerable to enemy air power during deployment. Still, the Harkonnens did find a creative use for "antique" artillery pieces, so it's really all in how you'd use them.
So, the top 3 most letal armies in the universe are conformed by only women???
Now, that is science fiction at its finest. 🤪🤪🤪
This video is just as pointless and stupid as people putting different attributes to light saber colours based on f* wookiepedia.
You are an Indian.
😂😂😂
I can tell, he's butchering the constructed languages based on semitic languages.
Yes the top 3 are all women, makes sense
All these powerful females are gonna make the average 40K fan REEEEE 😂
Bro the sisters of battle and silence are completely badass! Not all us 40k players are reeee basement dwellers 😂
we just don't like unimaginative retcons
@@alexanderjaspal
Sisters of battle, coolest faction far. Rivaled only by the guard.
To be fair to the 40k basement dwellers, Frank Herbert also had an icky cum slathered perspective on womanhood that some would describe as pretty sexist. If anything, the 40k all female factions and named characters are alot more empowering then the bene gesserit or honored matres lol
The clickbait got you.
Really? A woman army? I thought this was about Dune not some sexual fantasy.
Also in real life, a man would wipe the floor with a woman in a fight. That's why men are the fighters.