I have a Aluminum Giant. Got a new rear triangle, no questions asked. Giant has lifetime warranty on their frame. Sure it’s not a high end and less desirable than a Santa Cruz but it does the same job. More money doesn’t always equal better things. Sometimes it’s better to drive a Toyota with better warranties than a Ferrari without one, especially in rush hour where speed matters not. :)
Giant the goat on warranties I have seen a 2009 giant trance that fell off a bike rack be warrantied. They didn’t have any more 2009 frames so the guy was given a carbon 2014 frame
Lifetime but covers what kind of damage? No producer gives you lifetime warranty for external cause damage. In that way you could go at anytime, drop a rock and request new frame. That would be just pure stupidity...
@@DamianSieradzki As long as it happened while riding, giant will replace their carbon components no matter what, crash or otherwise. They do require that the frame is taken to a shop to be destroyed though (so you can't fake damage to get new frame)
Good info for new riders on what to expect with a 'warranty' claim. Shocking to me that it's such a casually informed purchase at that price, or that people spend that much on an offroad ride and not budget in damage. I've designed and fabricated composite products for over 20 years, the last carbon MTB I had was in the early 90s when they were intentionally overbuilt. My advice on crash replacements is replace the carbon with alloy unless you have the disposable income.
I have rock hits similar to what happened to you once every 2 or 3 rides on my Pivot, and I've had 0 issues with cracking. As a former bike shop employee I feel like this is something Santa Cruz should have covered in good faith.
Working at a shop, you also know food and well that the warranty is to cover manufacturing defects, not accidents. To the OP, always read warranty info before buying a bike. Santa Cruz owes you nothing here. If you were riding over a section of roots or something along those lines and the frame cracked after normal stresses that would indicate a factory defect, that’s another story. But a foreign object hitting the frame is nowhere close to Santa Cruz’s fault where they should be liable. As for what I ride, I’ve had/have Carbon? Aluminum, and Steel MTB’s. Carbon is generally stronger for the forces a MTB will take in normal riding. Things like stronger around the headset and BB region, at least Santa Cruz is. Check out their video where they stress test Carbon vs Aluminum Nomads. However, Aluminum handles impacts to the actual frame better, like a rock strike or falling and the frame hitting a small point of impact like a rock/root/edge.
@@letour32rr what happened in that video is perfectly within the realm of what a mountain bike will experience over it's lifetime, and it cracking is a manufacture defect
I've always avoided carbon for mtbs. Actually I had an equivalent issue with carbon road wheels. These were £750 a pair. Deep rim. The rear rim was hit by a stone on a local lane and that spot delaminated. I sent photos to the manufacturer who said the warranty didn’t cover as it was an accident and not a manufacturing fault. For anything other than smooth roads I think carbon is risky.
That's retail for ya. No price tag on any item you purchase is ever worth what they asking for them. Retail always jscks their prices up 500%+. So it costs 500 bucks to make a Santa Cruz bicycle Frame. They turn around and sell one for $5k. Fox forks cost $150 to make and they turn around and sell them for $700++. Set of carbon wheels for a road bike cost $50 to make & they turn around and sell a pair for $700. Nada god damn thing is better than anything else. Most products that are outrageous prices just have better marketing teams. Just because you pay an arm and a leg for a product, doesn't mean that it is a superb product. It just means that the manufacturers are greedy & they know what people with deep+deeper pockets will pay for their products. All that marketing/advertisement really is, is propaganda. If I repeat something for a long enough time and then thus show you illustrations for a long enough time... All the money that I just invested into adcertising is going to pay me forward by 500,000%. Because I will just hace convinced/fooled all of you into believinh that my product is superb compared to products ya haven't ever really heard of. See how that works? Life & then there's sheep 🐑🐑
@@racismisterrorism9033That's a little naive. Sure, the costs might be cheap, but factor in time and money spent in prototyping, small production volume, sponsorships, marketing, shipping and storage costs, all the employee pay for manufacturers and retailers... It adds up. Nike shoes cost less than $2 to make. Apple phones?
Nike shoes cost .23 cents to make. It isn't a little naive at all mate. It is 100% factual. You do not have to sell product's that you create for pennies or dollars for a gross amount of money. That is you and your company being greedy. If I sell Nike's for $5 a pair, and the intial cost to produce just one pair is only 23 pennies, I've already made Billions of dollars. Don't you see? If I sell Walmart no name brand shoes for $10, I am a billionaire. Either way you and your company end up very wealthy. It does not mean that a Nike shoe is better than a Walmart shoe. Because they are not. It is all marketing propaganda. Propaganda nevertheless that you CHOOSE to invest a ridiculous amount of your own personal wealth into. The same Chinese company who produce Walmart shoes have similar dividends to the Nike. Amd with little to no money spent on advertising costs. Because fact is, Walmart shoes aren't advertised. Lol. Guy who makes and sells Walmart shoes is driving around the same color/year Ferrari that the guy who owns/sells Nike's 😂🙈
Useful and thought-provoking info, thanks for sharing. You can see both sides - typically a "warranty" is meant to address defects in materials or workmanship, not acts of God. That said, MTB is a rough and tumble sport and bikes need to be able to withstand that. That section was mellow and you weren't doing anything inappropriate or reckless. Sometimes bad luck taps us on the shoulder - glad you found a solution and kept on rolling. I have SC Heckler w/ CC carbon frame, good to know how they approach these situations. Cheers bud....
I'd argue that this is the expected use scenario of a Mountainbike. Since the stone hitting the frame was not caused by an outside force, but the standard usage of the bike it has to be covered under the warenty. The explanation by the manufacturer is missing this simple point. If you'd drive a new car and due to a pebble kicked up by the wheel something structural would break, the manufacturer would very well be liable to fix the issue and even liability if it causes a crash. Another point is that those bikes are expensive and made and even certified by the manufacturers own ratings. These would be usable against them, since those clearly state that those bikes are made to ride trails, downhill or most likely do big jumps.
I had a 2018 Nomad that i put through many many trail, enduro like and bike park miles. Last year i removed a leopard like pattern protective tape from DYEDBRO from the rear triangle and discovered a very small hair line crack. I send SC the pictures and explained how i have ridden my bike etc. They requested more pictures and after 3 days they approved a warranty replacement. However since they did not have in stock the 2018 frames anymore they actually shipped me a 2021 model. I was super happy with their customer service and how fast i got a new frame (10 days). I know people that have waited months for warranties replacements from other manufactures. I am really surprised you did not get that cover, but glad you have ridden that nomad hard since them.
I had a similar problem with my Nukeproof Giga. On my first ride, a pretty nasty rock hit the frame and ripped out a small piece of carbon. I called the dealer and he cleared everything with Nukeproof and they replaced the whole frame through the Crash Replacement program.
@@jacobgiraffa No problems so far but I haven't been out on the trails much since I got the replacement. But from my point of view the damage of the frame was not that bad but they replaced it anyway because the could not guarantee the durability of the fame over time. All in all I was pretty impressed that it was such a smooth process.
The replacement front triangle cost $300. SC said they usually charge $600. Since the replacement I have installed thick 3m tape in the same location the rock hit. I have had gnarly wrecks and similar rock strikes with no problems.
had the near identical experience with my 2018 Nomad CC. On my 3rd ride a racket ball sized rock drilled a small hole in the down tube, just off the edge of the plastic guard. The hole penetrated nearly all layers of carbon. Got the exact same response from Santa Cruz. Told me I could buy a new triangle. I ended up sealing the hole with epoxy glue and Kept an eye on it. Alternatively, when I snapped both chain stays on my Intense 951 that was almost a year out of warranty, they replaced it with an M9 at no charge. Most people will never need warranty support but when you do, dealing with an honorable company makes a huge difference.
Good to know how reality of lifetime looks like. Btw, BC POV broke his frame with his tigh, and Eric wasn't even hurt in his leg other than small bruise after the hit.
Now the reality looks even worse. No matter if You go for warranty or no fault replacement, you gonna wait 12 months. Also customer service is one of the worst I came across during many years - I have similar case and now I'm at the point where they decided to not communicate at all.
@@jacobgiraffa unfortunately, with social media marketing, we are paying for their rides, great customer service, and wear&tear replacements. And we get "claim denied"
Foes Racing USA. I know the carbon fiber “plastic” bikes of today are very nice looking and for some reason they become the trendy thing. I’m still an old-school guy and I love my aluminum bikes. I ride a Foes and I absolutely love it, yes it’s heavier but that thing is built like a tank, it will never fail you. I know the pros ride the carbon fiber “plastic” bikes, but keep in mind they go through several frames per season, something that the rest of the 99% of us can’t afford to do.
Thanks for sharing your story! I never really trusted carbon, that’s why I ride steel and I honestly love it. There’s a carelessness about crashing on a steel bike, and I did some dumb moves with mine for sure 😀
I remember a video where they tested the strength of the frame. Bashing it, dripping weight on the fork to simulate a short landing after a jump. The frame was enormously strong. Seeing this damage even under a guard leads me to believe the current frames aren't that tough. Prices go up, quality goes down.
I remember that video too. That is the video what convinced me. I think the quality in a lot of things are going down with the price going up! Thanks for sharing
@@georgiaguardian4696 that's why they wacked it against concrete and it didn't budge. To show impact resistance. But i guess the newer frames aren't that tough.
"Prices go up, quality goes down." That's what I've noticed across a broad spectrum of products over the last 20 years. When a company is profit orientated to keep the money flowing in, instead of quality builds + excellent aftersales service (like it was for decades in the industrial age), it seems, based on my experiences with manufactured goods (bought or examined) since the early 2000's, manufacturers hit on the idea that they can reduce quality and service, and folks will still buy their products... ...with only a small amount realising the scam being perpetrated and they cease buying from that company...hence manufacturers continue to rip others off with thier low quality products, and warranties designed to favor them, not the customer. Cars, electrical and manual tools, processed foods, and even paint pens (my fav story). Poska is one of the biggest manufacturers of art pens, well liked and respected by the thousands or millions that buy their products. A few years ago I bought several poska paint pens from different stores. Due to my experience of cheap paint pens on eBay, I chose to examine the Poska ones as well. The cheap ones that sell for approx $1AU, upon taking them apart to see how much paint was inside, as I suspected something fishy was going on with them. I was amazed to find they were all 65-75% empty (various brands from different companies bought over a one year period), all using the same scam technique of only filling them up 25-35% but adding three heavy ball bearings (a bearing or in the past a glass marble used as a mixer) instead of one, to replace the weight lost by the lack of paint. So I tried some trusted and popular Posca pens (twice the size, but three times the price). My opinion, they're seasoned scammers because... - they glue the cap on, so you can't see how much paint is missing. - no net weight or volume written on the pens or on the web site. - from their web site - stating pens won't be full to allow for mixing. Apparently one of the oldest and largest pen manufacturers has never heard of one steel or glass ball can be used to mix the contents...and has efficiently done so for decades. I had to drill holes in the bottom of these expensive pens to measure the contents...all 60% empty. Cheap spray paint from auto parts shops are the same, , up to 80% empty, and heavily diluted with paint thinners. As the years go by, I notice more and more companies are adopting the 'reduce quality and service for maintaining and increasing profit' business model...regardless of company history or how large or respected they are.
Back around 1996 I had saved up for a trek 9.8 XV carbon bike after my first 3 mtb that where all chromoly. First ride I went to Bromont. Qc, went down a rock bed, a rock flew up and pierced the downtube. Then while riding back to my car, I had to cross a steam and I slipped on a rock and fell to the side and cracked my seatstay. I’ve had the bike a few days and this was its first off-road ride. I was so sure the frame was defective and this would be taken care of by trek, l was really surprised when trek said no. My dealer tried to help but trek said it wasn’t covered. So I had to buy a new frame but was strapped for cash so got an aluminum frame and had the shop transfer all components. I raced and ride the heck out of that bike and still have it today. In 2019 I replaced it as my main mountain bike and bought aluminum. No more carbon for mountain bikes for me. I just bought a gravel bike from giant and decided on carbon. Fingers crossed but as I will be riding it on paved and dirt roads, should not have problems.
This is the reason i went with an alloy MTB over carbon, plus i like a ping noise instead of a thuck when the rocks strike. What wasn't mentioned or I missed was the cost of the new triangle, am wondering if it was a small percentage of a new frame or full price?
Thanks for the video. I had a very similar incident with my 2016 nomad, except the frame didn't crack (small chip but it's still doing strong). The stock bashguard on Santa Cruz bikes is not fit for purpose, I strongly recommend buying a Rockguardz protector as a sacrificial layer - mine is now beaten to a pulp from rocks and I'm so glad my frame hasn't taken those hits.
Trek makes their frame protectors out of OCLV Carbon=Carbon Armor and they are thick pads implying that a rock hit on underside of the frame beneath the pedals yields no cracks in carbon frame. I know this from personal riding experience. Good luck, Jacob.
I had a really good experience with replacement of a carbon frame for my Giant trance a few years back. No obvious damage though - just a crack formed on the top tube. I think that a single rock strike should be covered. It’s should be built to withstand that. It’s mountain biking after all. I think the term used is “fit for intended purpose”. The car analogy was bogus.
Fatigue cracking should be warranties. For sure. Impacts though, not so much. That's like expecting your car manufacturer to replace a car you ran into a post.
@@bustatron Fatigue is a long-term failure mechanism caused by repetitive cyclical movement. Cracks within the 1st few months (such as mine was) are frame strength problems either as a result of design or manufacturing deficiencies. If I expect my bike to withstand the odd root strike on the bottom bracket then I expect it to manage a small rock strike. Different if I slammed into a tree (like car into a pole). The story still shows the lack of any responsibility accepted by the manufacturer, which is somewhat concerning. Also no doubt design plus manufacturing improvements can reduce these risks. In this case the BB guard could have had greater coverage, for instance.
Unfortunately this is the big disadvantage of carbon fiber, it has a lot of strength in fiber (and tube) direction but it's sensitive if it gets impacted from the side. This side impact can be a result from a rock, or a crash. While metal is flexible and can also get dents without breaking instantly carbon fiber is flexible up to the point where it breaks, it can't bend like metal. Personally I ride a Scott Aspect, a XC hardtail bike costing 10 % of this Santa Cruz, but it's good enough for me to have fun and it has a frame and rims made of aluminum, there's not a single part made of carbon fiber. Nevertheless always a good ride and much fun on your Santa Cruz
@@jacobgiraffa Have a look at commencal! I've ridden my commencal meta AM on the north shore and in the whistler bike for about a year now and its still in great shape even after smacking the frame on more than a few rocks
I have been building and restoring bikes for 14 years. I have also serviced and repaired wheelchairs for 13 years to present. Both fields have carbon fiber examples. I know this is going to offend some people because I continuously have this conversation clients. Carbon fiber bikes and wheelchairs are garbage. Don't let your pride be hurt because of the price you paid. I have seen carbon fiber bikes and wheelchairs have epic failures over simple things like this rock hitting it...on a mountain bike....to ride around in areas where there is dirt and rocks. Wheelchairs where the entire front of the frame snapped off. Some of our clients require special seating backs on the their chairs. These back require clamps to hold them on. One carbon fiber manufacturer stated that we can only tighten the clamps to 5 lbs of torque or it will crack or shatter the back canes. 5lbs of torque is like turning your wrench with your pinky and then letting a small cat hang from the wrench. They eventually had to provide aluminum canes to install when clients needed special backs and seating. Not to mention that carbon fiber looks like hell is short notice as it scratches if you look at it too hard. Another client wanted his frame replaced because it looked like hell on the sides from his transfers...the manufacturer basically said that he paid for the benefits of being lightweight and not for aesthetics. Some clients have very little upper body strength so they do what we call hard transfers and the carbon fiber chairs break all the time. It is a gimmick and don't let a salesman tell you otherwise...it comes at a premium price and if they are commissioned that means more chingo. They do not have to deal with it later. The service technicians have to all the time. A lot of people praise carbon fiber, but they spent tons of money on it and "need to tell you about it" or convince you to join the club to justify their choices. Carbon fiber performs outstandingly...on a dash of a car. Otherwise avoid it.
Thanks for sharing and you're lucky to have that video footage of the incident! When I built up a new bike, carbon was definitely very attractive but I went with the heavier aluminium option because I couldn't bear the thought of a carbon frame sitting in a land fill for a hundred years. Only carbon thing I have on the bike is the handlebar for a bit of vibration damping. Have frequent rock strikes on the frame and it doesn't bother me one bit.
@@jacobgiraffa Not really.... I've seen my fair share of broken aluminium handlebars and the resulting bodily injuries. Carbon handlebars seem to be overbuilt by a large margin and designed to collapse rather than snap suddenly. The bars that we use on our enduro bikes are the same ones used on downhill bikes so they can take quite a bit of abuse. Aluminium also fatigues over time so it's kinda like a ticking time bomb. Used to change mine every year as a precaution. Rather that than face meeting the stem.
I would have told Santa Cruz that the frame was defective because under this circumstance there is no way this rock could break the frame unless there were a factory defect. And how could you of known that there wasn’t a hairline fracture if there was a guard covering it? Thank you for this video btw. It really put a lot of perspective when purchasing my carbon bike in the future
I have a Santa Cruz nomad cc 2018 and in my last ride I found between the down tube and the head tube a crack, does anyone know if the Santa Cruz will replace it?
When i walked into the bike shop to buy my bike last year I made it clear to the bike shop I prioritised durability through telling them that I wanted a bike that i could slam into a tree with all my might and the only damage done would be to the tree. Walked out with a steel hardtail👌
I had an aluminium hardtail that had a rock violently thrown up from the front wheel into the downtube. It left quite a noticeable dent but, was only cosmetic. I mentioned this to a friend and said I suspect that this would have been a frame failing strike had the frame been carbon. I also found a video of someone whose bike fell onto rocks during a slide out crash cracking the frame. Glad I found these videos as I dont want an expensive off road carbon frame that is great to ride providing there are no frame ruining rock impacts that would just mark or dent a metal frame. What is particularly annoying about this Santa Cruz example is I have seen a Santa Cruz video which shows SA testers apparently showing the frame is practically indestructible by deliberately smashing it as hard as possible against what looked like an anvil or solid concrete. Your real world experience says a lot about their frames true durability, paired with their reluctance to cover the cost under warranty. If the frames are as indestructible as their marketing video suggests you would think they would be surprised and keen to compensate you for this apparent anomaly frame failure.
A year in to biking and I've recently Consider getting a carbon frame bike because it has everything I need, how much did you have to pay out of pocket?
Haha your gnarly dude. Racing DH on a trail bike. As for Santa Cruz I think the bike would perform well. My bike is so capable on the DH trails I ride.
2015 Knolly Warden... Bought it as a brand new frame and built it myself. Aluminum and titanium hardware, not a single carbon component. Crashed and hucked several times and only made a small ding on my down tube due to a tall drop that I rolled over and hit a rock. Had a few scratches on my bar and stem due to a rock garden DH wipeout. Other than that, its still pristine.
When I bought my Propain Spindrift I consciously chose the aluminum frame. The main reason for this is what you show in your video. You can also get much better parts for the same price. I just ride for fun, I don't race at a high level and I don't have that ambition. The difference in weight is therefore not a valid reason for me to go for carbon. However, the difference between basic parts and high-end parts (especially suspension and brakes) is very noticeable in my opinion.
What a bullshit, can't read this shit about better parts anymore. Nothing affect the bike performance more than a GOOD FRAME. It's the base of a bike, the geometry and stiffness is the most noticeable thing, no matter what bling bling parts you got on it. Please understand this!
@@nilog8587 you can buy a fancy carbon frame with really low spec parts. weak brakes, fastwearing drivetrain, bad suspension and weak wheels, manufacturers sell that. you will be replacing all parts with after market parts in no time and that's way more expensive then getting a descent speced bike right away. of course you have to choose a good frame in the first place but aluminum frames are not bad though.
@@nilog8587 Wether the frame is alu or carbon, doesn't matter in that regard, the geometrie is the only thing that matters. Both with same geometrie will have their own cons and pros, but won't affect the capabilities of the finished bike at all. Stiffness-differences are very small nowadays, but also hardly have any impact on the driving-capabilities, more just on personal prefenrence. So no, it's no bullshit. And comparing low budget drivetrains vs more expensive ones..yes they do have a huge impact, but depends on what and where you ride the bike. Dry vs wet conditions, muddy vs sandy, etc etc all makes a direct impact on the drivetrain. Same goes for suspension..fit a very cheap sr suntour fork in a carbon frame or a very nice more expensive Fox in a alu frame..I bet you'd take the aluminium bike on the feel alone, let alone the capability-differences of the bikes. So no, NO bullshit 😉 Actually choosing for a carbon frame, can often be a bad and very expensive choice, especially for non-competitive riders. Btw forexample Scott bikes, or any reputable manufacturer,..geometrie of aluminium frames are the same as their carbon frames, no difference at all but weight.
I successfully warrantied a Santa Cruz Tallboy CC frame that cracked at no additional cost. That was back in 2015 which I think was before they were acquired. Maybe things are different now?
I had 6 different carbon bikes from Spezialized, Niner, Bulls, Canyon, Pinarello. 4 different from aluminium. The only ones that survived my years of cycling are one carbon from Bulls and 1 aluminium from a Dutch brand called Gazelle. I drove around 15000 a year, road and dirt. Did also stuff like driving down stairs and roads like in the movie. Al my carbon frames broke. Mostly in the crank area. That something was hitting the frames from the road and causing the damage is highly likely. Al frames where replaced under warranty. What this means. Never be to honest about the cause when a frame cracks. It totally ridiculous that manufacturers reject a claim when you drive a certain terrain. These bikes are build for that. But when you give a manufacturer to much information they always try their way out of their responsibility. After that your only choice is to accept or go wild on forums. This will hurt them big time. I did it once in another warranty case and got en new bike after I removed all of my complaints from several forums. (They asked me to do that)
The manufacturer is correct. Your car analogy explains it all. Now if the bike snapped/cracked for no reason then yes they would replace. It would then be considered a manufacturing flaw.
this is brutal one of the reasons i went with santa cruz was my faith in their warranty here is my santa cruz customer service experience i wanted a new bottom link on my bike, it was looking a bit shabby i called up SC and they told me i had to go to an authorized dealer in town for warrantied work, fair enough my favorite LBS has been my go to for ever, but they weren't auth'ed to do warrantied repairs while i was in line at the service counter, in just 15 m9inutes i knew i didn't want these monkeys touching my bike i called back SC and explained my hesitations they wont sell me a part directly either because i live in a city with an AD i had to take my bike after they were done to my LBS to make sure the work was done correctly, which it wasn't in fact they weren't even sure they could tell the work was done at all except for the new bolts my damper wasn't tightened, and my caliper wasn't attached to the frame at all i love SC, i had their skateboards, their surf boards, and i went with them for ym dream build i own 7 others from back in the 90s, but i am going to be giving serious consideration to not buying another ever absolute hog shit, their indifference to my concerns and wishes i hate them now, because i loved them so much
@@jacobgiraffa You'd have been better off not telling them about the rock brew. That's called crash replacement every company does this. Most will sell you the replacement at cost. Next time just say you heard a pop while you were just "riding along" lol.
I'm new to mountain biking and was heavily considering a carbon frame for my first bike. I compared the two materials and figured that since I'm new, I would have potentially, a lot more crashes and damage to the bike and it would not hold up over time as I progress. I picked up an alloy Transition Spire instead of the carbon model. There is so much 'hype' in the industry with carbon frames and it's made out to be the 'better' version, but it's simply not the case. I think if anyone is starting out in the sport that they should only consider an alloy frame because as your video pointed out, accidents do occur and sometimes they're costly. You can always sell your bike and get something at a later date anyways.
Also, I recommend you start with a cheap used bike so that you're not afraid of breaking it while learning, then when you have good technique you progress to a more expensive bike
I own a Carbon Santa Cruz and have put it through the ringer. It took me three years of serious riding in rocky central Oregon terrain before damaging it in a Crash. Santa Cruz was unable to supply me with the rear triangle of my 2018 bike due to COVID supply chain issues. They instead offered me a huge discount on a newer model. I was at first stoked on getting what I thought would be an upgrade until realizing that I needed almost all new parts for the new model because they had made so many changes. It’s a year later and I am still building up this new frame. In the meantime I discovered that carbon can be repaired. It cost $300 and 3 weeks later my rear triangle was as good as new! This is one of the reasons I will always purchase carbon frames and we all know they feel way better to ride.
I would disagree. If anything I think carbon feels worse on the trails. Like every single bump gets transmitted into your hands. For xc I can understand people want a very stiff bike but for trail/enduro I think metal is the far better option. Plus no one wants to constantly stress that each and every little thing could be the end of the frame lol.
Honestly Santa Cruz has a point, I wouldn’t blame them for not warranting your frame. There really isn’t anyone to blame it really was just unlucky that it happened the way it did.
I disagree to the fullest. They put that bash guard there to protect the lower frame tube. A rock got past it, meaning their defense system was crappy. I have worked at bike shops and been riding downhill and dirt jumps for 13 years. Bike companies are whack with carbon. I always go metal and higher end suspension
What an eye-opener! I would have thought that Santa Cruz would have been more honorable than this. Almost every ride I have encountered little rocks like this - I wouldn't want to be riding a bike that is so fragile as to not handle regular mountain bike riding conditions and know that the life-time warranty means nothing. This clears up any conflict in my mind between going with Santa Cruz or Pivot for my next enduro and my next trail bikes.
idk how santa cruzs frame quality compares to other carbon bikes, but santa cruz has the best low pivot design out there with vpp, nothing can compare. I would recomend a santa cruz to anyone whose looking for the fastest low pivot bike
Nowadays news of good customer service gets around. Carbon fiber will never be my material of choice because it has been proven to fail. Manufacturers that market durability under false pretenses should prepare for the backlash or move aside for those that will do the right thing. Bike frames are all about the geometry anyway, so consumers have alternatives. Thanks for sharing your experience
I previously had an aluminum full sus, now I've been riding an aluminum hardtail for around a year and the next one, no matter hardtail or full sus, will be an aluminum one as long as possible. Carbon breaks, and brands try with all their might not to replace it for free, those are facts. A friend of mine and I had a similar crash in the same trail circuit a few weeks ago. I have an aluminum bike, landed against a tree, he has a carbon Trek hardtail, went OTB and the bike landed against some pointy rocks. I think you all guess the result: my frame got slightly dented, other than aesthetics still works perfectly. His frame cracked, talked to Trek and now he's paying extra money from a third party to get it fixed as Trek didn't take responsibility and he needs the bike ready for April 10th for bike ride we had scheduled and even paid for transportation already.
Aluminum Santa Cruz Chameleon R 27.5 plus, I will always run an aluminum aluminum frame. The weight savings on a carbon fiber do not outweigh the reliability of aluminum
I have a 2021 carbon Nomad. Been riding it for just about a year now, putting it through the paces, lots of miles and certainly some random rock flip-ups just like the one here in your video and several crashes too (maybe around 10 or so??). No cracks yet, knock on wood! The bike always feels so solid and stable yet I am fully aware that flukes happen and it totally sucks that it happened to you. It could happen to any one of us at any time. I'm surprised they weren't more accommodating, especially since this was your first freakin' ride on the thing. You did at least get a reduced rate on the new rear triangle, yes?? Even so, I am sure it wasn't cheap.
@@jacobgiraffa That's what the crash replacement warranty is, a discounted price on replacement frame parts damaged by impacts from crashing/rock strikes etc. If you could've attributed the crack to have been a manufacturing failure, then you would have rise to a replacement frame under their Lifetime Warranty.
Insanity man! I bought a 2021 Rocky Mountain Altitude, A70. One day the top and down tube just snapped. it snapped completely in half as i was very slowly going from point A to B. the oly thing that held the bike together was the ride wrap. I was on a flat section and not a steep roll or anything luckily. However the flat section was on the summit. i had to walk down with the bike draped over my shoulder. HORRIBLE HIKE Anyways, I took it to the shop, they did they warranty calls and paper work. Rocky Mountain was absolutely excellent. Not only did they cover everything they also upgraded my frame from aluminum to carbon for free. I have not had an issue since and will always ride rocky mountain.
It’s unfortunate this happened to you, and I’m sure you’re not the only one. I’ve had similar rock strikes and pretty major crashes on my carbon Santa Cruz without a problem. So I’m hoping that your experience is a freak occurrence or you had a ‘defective’ frame. I would also consider that this could happen with any bike, and that aluminum frames bikes often sustain major dents when hit by big rocks, rendering the frames unridable as well. But I think you nailed it. I could see where SC could claim they are not responsible if you had abused the bike. But they should have covered the frame in this case if they want to keep the reputation that their bikes can stand up to normal trail riding conditions, which this was.
I agree with you. Thank you for taking the time to write this comment. Means a lot! The bike shop originally talked about putting epoxy on the frame, until they saw the crack. Also I really don't expect myself to buy another Santa Cruz after this experience. If it were the other way around and they replaced the frame no questions asked, I probably would have stuck with Santa Cruz for a while. Im looking into getting a specialized now. Have you heard any bad experiences with them?
Currently I'm having the same issue with Santa Cruz Bronson 2020. No crash, no hitting anything big. Found a crack close to the plastic frame protection. They just answered it is customer fault and recommended to "ride and inspect". It might be similar situation to Jacobs (hit by a rock). This cover is worthless, probably badly designed for a mountain bike (when small rocks can hit bottom part of the bike). On the other side they position their carbon frame as stronger than aluminium (pinkbike movie), also sponsoring aggressive riders like 50/01 team. At the end of the day, after pushing them for a crash replacement, they answer they will put me on a waiting list with around a year of waiting for new front triangle. So it seems they have funny understanding of "possibly fast" in their policy "we put You back on the bike asap".
@@MrZwiraldo I’m sorry to hear about this. It’s sucks when this stuff happens. Your example I would think they should replace it… when did it crack? How long did you have the bike?
@@jacobgiraffa I bought it end of 2020 and started riding last year. It was one season. Found the crack in February during service and inspection, as I was preparing bike for this year. Seems like I wont have a bike for this season, if fhey at least wont propose better time of no warranty replacement. Up to this point, Customer Service, or Rider support team, how they call it, is doing rather crappy job. I'm amazed how much does it differs from SC warranty legend. Had definitely better experiences with Direct brands, where whole bike cost was a Santa Cruz frame.
@@MrZwiraldo yeah that’s a shame. That’s a bummer. This total event took a month or so… I’m not sure what the normal turn around time is but it sucked not having a bike for a week. And I didn’t have mine for a month it sucks.. I’m hoping you get your bike back soon.
Yo bro that sucks. I bought my Santa Cruz 5010 about six months ago and absolutely love it. I watched their carbon testing videos online and I was convinced the frames were even more solid than the aluminum frames. The way that rock hit the frame was super unlucky but still shouldn’t have done THAT much damage in my opinion. Crazy. Def has me sketched out haha. Btw I noticed you’re at codorus! My wife and I ride there all the time! Digged the video and subscribed. Better luck in the future my guy! 🤙
I do not want to sound like a jerk saying “I knew it”, but this exactly what puts me off of carbon of any brand. To me, it only has a place in XC, or of someone is a pro EN/DH racer competing in world cup. Thank you for letting us know how the brand handles lifetime warranty. You have also made more sure about my choice. I am not gonna spend thousands on any of these big brands bike. My bike will be fillet brazed steel. I will make it, an will repair it if anything happens. Custom, sustainable, repairable and no possibility of material fatigue.
@@jacobgiraffa Yeah because the softer Material transfers the Impact to the carbon and absorbs it. A Hard Plastic or carbon prodector just breaks but wont transfer the impact as much. And the harder the protector is, the easier it slides over rocks.
Yeah, I had an alloy hard tail before this bike. Since I got the new triangle back on this bike I have had similar rock strikes a and have had no problems so far… knock on wood
Aluminum Bronson here, and got a small dent in a very close position when brand new about 5 years ago. No troubles with it, and one of the reasons I bought aluminum. Aluminum wheels, aluminum bars.... Oh, and note, Santa Cruz scrubbed the video of them in their plant bashing a steel column with a new frame to show it suffered no damage.
Yeah I just bought my first carbon bike - SC HT. Will see how long it lasts. If the same happens I'll just go back to AL frames and that will be that. It's a major gamble with carbon for sure. Huge price tag for that weight savings. I waffle for a while then just dove in. Decided to go with the risk in favor of what everyone else has been enjoying. Crossing fingers I don't experience the same. It is quite nice saving 5 lbs overall. Can feel every lb.
I grew up when steel frames dominated the bicycle industry. I never developed a longing for carbon. Carbon has no aesthetic appeal for me, although I know it is an excellent bicycle frame material. I ride steel, aluminum, and titanium bikes. All three metals are easily recycled. Neither metal is subject to "sudden catastrophic failure."
I’ve had fantastic experiences with Yeti! Bought a frame from them, while building it up with all my parts I discovered a crack in the seat tube… Brought it in to the nearest LBS that deals yeti bikes and they hooked me up with a new frame for free in about 3 weeks!
..thanks for sharing your experience with us..thats one reason, I only go for steel..I dont care about the extra weight..and I am only a freetime rider with minor skills..steel is robust..easy to fix (to a certain point) and its the material humans have the most experience with..hope that your bike will hold on for many more rides to come..cheers..
Hi, I'm glad you've had a good few years of fun despite what happened to your frame. I've had carbon and aluminium framed bikes in the past. I now have a steel bike. It's a Stanton Switch9er FS. The main reason I want for this was frame durability. A carbon bike in my opinion is like a plastic bike. They look great but have next to no impact resistance as you found out yourself. My bike is a kilo or two heavier than a carbon bike but it will last forever!
As I can relate to the frustration, they really didn’t do anything wrong. It’s stated pretty clearly that the warranty is “due to manufacturing defect”. And alloy frame likely would have been dented at least by that rock hit. And a dent in alloy will compromise integrity. Also there is no law that even obligates them to offer a discount toward a replacement. There’s a lot of premium bike frames that don’t even offer that long of a warranty. I do appreciate your position and your right to an opinion though. Having said that, no company that wants to stay in business is just going to give away a frame to everyone that breaks one. Glad you got it sorted 👍🏻
Thank you for the comment , I understand your position. But the main reason for the video is because most people in my opinion do not read the fine print. I agree that Santa Cruz did what they needed to do financially. I also fully appreciate the discount that was provided. But after spending the initial amount on the bike, the discounted repair was hard to bring forward. I also agree that Santa Cruz compared to other bike manufacturers are better with their warranty. I personally think there was a defect in the frame. Because I have had similar rock smashes/ jump cases… But I might be a little bias. Thanks again Phil!
@@jacobgiraffa totally get it, it’s hard to say weather or not there was a defect for sure, haven’t had this happen to a frame but a back wheel, not Santa Cruz, had not had the wheel long and broke it after hitting a root. It was a hard hit to be fair, and it cracked the rim. Got a crash replacement and then still had to pay to have the wheel built. Definitely tough to swallow. I just don’t think the outcome would’ve been much different with another company. Since SC has instituted their lifetime warranty there’s a lot of people that have taken unscrupulous advantage of it. I think in the past they may have replaced it but due to other peoples misuse this is where we are…👍🏻cheers
@@jacobgiraffa I’d be upset too, at least expect a discounted triangle. Is there no downtube protection? Ik many carbon bikes have the plastic protective strip along the down tube
@@Wheelsanstuff the bike does have a protector but the location the rock hit the frame there was no protection. Since then I have put 3m tape in these exposed locations.
I bought a carbon tallboy last year and it had an ovalized head tube causing a cracking noise from the front of the bike. I was supposed to be sent a new front triangle in July of last year. Almost no questions asked. I didn’t recieve the frame until December after contacting them a few times. They did send me a new frame, including a rear triangle too, but the bike was a different color due to model year. They claim they oversold the frame when I was supposed to get mine but at least I got my tallboy frame.
I have watched their aluminum vs carbon videos and am surprised they didn’t stand behind their product I mean it cracked while you were cruising and you had a protector on top of that. Just when I was going to finally get a carbon frame to build. Now I don’t know if I am. Great video.
It’s not about them standing behind there product. Warranty’s cover defective materials or workmanship. Neither was the case here. He crashed so he got a crash replacement priced frame.
I was on the impression that their lifetime warranty is meant to cover anything. I currently ride a Canyon & have heared good stories about their warranty. But for my next build I'm going with a frame from Carbonda (China) as they basically have thesame kind if warranty as this for a fraction of the price.
If a company offers *THAT* kind of warranty, it's probably because it *WILL* break, and once you get sick of breaking them, say, two or three, you give up on the process, and they've manufactured them so cheap that they still made money off of you.
Now this is a real "watch this video before [...]" video that is worth the title. Because it's not obvious, unlike in the other similar named videos that just tell you common sense things. Great information! And I'm sorry about the situation.
Being a SC rider myself, that’s a big bummer to see your frame cracked, but it also seems like an outlier situation that most warranties of this nature avoid for good reason. Santa Cruz provided the right working example, and the bike industry shouldn’t be forced to account for what is essentially an act of God or shitty luck. Crash programs are still clutch even though this doesn’t seem ideal when the words lifetime warranty preceded it. Would have been helpful to share the overall cost as well, but still insightful for those who might make decisions based on warranty/ service. Sorry if this seems jaded, but when you’ve work in manufacturing it makes a hell of a lot more sense. Word to the wise, don’t show the video of it happening, and read the warranty in full for what they do cover. Play the game and get what you want.
No one's riding an mtb longer than 5-8 years. With the more "premium" brands like SC, you would imagine Lifetime Warranty means they'll take care of you unlike other brands. It seems they really aren't any different but ask for at least a 20-40% higher price. I definitely thought this was the kind of thing they would take care of. Sad to see they leave people out to dry with a first ride incident like this. If you asked most people why they buy SC, I think they would say something like "the brand is solid and they have your back in a worst case scenario" but apparently that's not the case.
@@dylan-5287 dude..he only had to pay 300bucks. Lol He messed up by showing the video. If he had a really good relationship with his LBS the lifetime warranty would have been taken care of. It's all about who you know and how you word things when it comes to frame replacement warranties. Lol real talk..like it or not.
That’s a common story among carbon frame riders. Something i’ve considered before for sure…such great weight savings and a compliant ride too?!?! I went with a Ti frame on my most recent bike. Hard tail and it took some adjustments to picking lines and trails that fit how I wanna ride nowadays. Luckily it was just a triangle replacement and not the whole frame! 👍🏼 Enjoy riding!
@@jacobgiraffa I've heard of people having rocks take chunks out of their aluminum frames though, from what I've heard the main advantage with alloys is that when they break it's not usually as catastrophic.
This is why I do direct to consumer. For the $5000 you spent on that bike you get way more and in some cases a top end bike or close to it for that price. I buy from chain Reaction Cycles in Europe and they have a no questions asked warranty. Good luck bro
I have an aluminum hardtail. The reasons I bought aluminum are the same reasons I bought a hardtail: durability/low maintenance. Why? Money, lengthy repair waits, supply chain breakdowns, collapse of the dollar, WWIII, and Mad Max.
Me too... Carbon cannondale jekyll exactly the same damage as you had. I'm sure manufacturers know this is a common problem but won't fit decent frame protection as they know they'll make more money when this s##t happens. Of all the carbon bikes I've had the only one that I didn't break was an Sworks enduro, I won't buy another carbon bike again
@@__marshie Not really, people are just ignorant to the loss of structural integrity a dent causes. Cracked carbon and dented aluminum are very similar on integrity, just not visually. As for wheels, you will have broken aluminum wheels many times over before you break a carbon rim.
@@jacobgiraffa Don't be, if you had dented aluminum it would be just as compromised and prone to catastrophic failure, the only difference is you would have kept riding it till it caused a serious crash. This is the myth of aluminum, and it's only because people don't understand structural integrity and tubular shapes, so they just see dent as fine but cracks as terrible when they are really the same.
You don’t understand how a warranty works. It’s for defects or workmanship issues. Their analogy regarding the car is spot on. If you smashed the bike into a rock and cracked it would you expect that to be covered too?
I always go steel with better suspension. Lower chance of breaking. I've seen countless friends get carbon frames ruined. Only one time have I seen a metal frame break and it was a 2009 specialized demo. Friend cased a 35 footer and the welds from the headset to the top and bottom tubes ripped apart
@@MrYesNeinMaybe yeah, I like steel dirt jumpers. But I said the demo was metal. That doesn't imply which metal. So are you telling me aluminum isn't metal?
i am a composite laminator and have been in this business for about 12 years now, work ranging from formula one all the way through military aerospace, i can confirm what happened to your bike there was not your fault but the result of very poor design and either a lack of material or simply wrong choice of material, i can think of at least 2 material types that would render the underside of your bike practically bulletproof at the sacrifice of maybe a half gram, santa cruz or any other manufacturer dabbling with carbon need to be very careful, well done for making this video mate
I work for a Trek dealer. That frame would have been warrantied no questions asked. Trek wants people to continue buying their product so they take care of their customers.
I've talked to some people that couldn't get a carbon trek frame covered for similar rock damage. I want to switch my ex frame for a slash but the only sets available are carbon. I'm just waiting for the 2023 aluminum models to show up.
I had a 2009 Trek Fuel ex 5 that I cracked the rear triangle at the weld. Trek offered me $1000 towards a new Trek so I ended up getting a 2019 Fuel ex 5. 29r instead of 26r.
Must say. We had a terrible experience with Canyon customer service when we were dealing with cracked carbon rims and then a cracked frame. Will never purchase a Canyon product again, ever.
Have had a few rocks like that kick up on the downtube and bottom bracket area like you on my aluminum bikes and never had a problem. Just a tiny barely noticeable dink on one of them but perfectly fine. I always been skeptical about getting a carbon bike but after watching this I'll be sticking to my trusty aluminum frames
I have a 2021 Tallboy C and I haven't had any issues with it and I beat it up quite a bit. I did add a OneUp bash guard to it cause I have similar concerns. Having a rock fly at it though? Wow that's really unfortunate. Imo the situation went down as best as it could. Their exploration is pretty on point, but I don't think it means their frames are flimsy... Tbf that's the world you step in with going with carbon. I 100% see your frustration though. I would be pretty pissed off but probably more at the situation rather than at SC directly... They probably did the best they could financially given the circumstance I've personally seen GT, Trek, Specialized and Canyon frames crack right in front of my eyes from the buddies I ride with. They all have different stories as to what each manufacturer did... Hopefully the bike holds up and you don't have any more issues. Bummer!
Idk I feel like that explanation is a cop out. You were using it as intended, in the environment as intended. Don’t get me wrong, the rock hitting it and doing that is a freak accident but Santa cruz should’ve replaced it.
@@jacobgiraffa love it! I'm a heavier rider so when I ride my bike I know I'm putting it through a ton a stress given how I ride also. Bash guard has been great
@@mathew435 yeah honestly... Considering they even say themselves they make bikes to last a "lifetime" ... I can easily see how replacing it is the right call. It's a tough situation. Idk I flip flop on opinion personally
I have a Aluminum Giant. Got a new rear triangle, no questions asked. Giant has lifetime warranty on their frame. Sure it’s not a high end and less desirable than a Santa Cruz but it does the same job. More money doesn’t always equal better things. Sometimes it’s better to drive a Toyota with better warranties than a Ferrari without one, especially in rush hour where speed matters not. :)
I with you! Toyotas are cheaper too! Thanks for sharing.
Giant the goat on warranties I have seen a 2009 giant trance that fell off a bike rack be warrantied. They didn’t have any more 2009 frames so the guy was given a carbon 2014 frame
That’s impressive! Thanks for sharing
Lifetime but covers what kind of damage? No producer gives you lifetime warranty for external cause damage. In that way you could go at anytime, drop a rock and request new frame. That would be just pure stupidity...
@@DamianSieradzki As long as it happened while riding, giant will replace their carbon components no matter what, crash or otherwise. They do require that the frame is taken to a shop to be destroyed though (so you can't fake damage to get new frame)
Good info for new riders on what to expect with a 'warranty' claim. Shocking to me that it's such a casually informed purchase at that price, or that people spend that much on an offroad ride and not budget in damage. I've designed and fabricated composite products for over 20 years, the last carbon MTB I had was in the early 90s when they were intentionally overbuilt. My advice on crash replacements is replace the carbon with alloy unless you have the disposable income.
I agree thanks for sharing
*Just an awesome **Latest.Bike** ....well constructed, sturdy, great looking…got me back out on the trails!! Could not be happier!!*
I have rock hits similar to what happened to you once every 2 or 3 rides on my Pivot, and I've had 0 issues with cracking. As a former bike shop employee I feel like this is something Santa Cruz should have covered in good faith.
Pivots are great bikes too thanks for sharing!
Should sue as it's USA. Sue and sue again.
It’s not worth the time/ money.
Working at a shop, you also know food and well that the warranty is to cover manufacturing defects, not accidents.
To the OP, always read warranty info before buying a bike. Santa Cruz owes you nothing here. If you were riding over a section of roots or something along those lines and the frame cracked after normal stresses that would indicate a factory defect, that’s another story. But a foreign object hitting the frame is nowhere close to Santa Cruz’s fault where they should be liable.
As for what I ride, I’ve had/have Carbon? Aluminum, and Steel MTB’s. Carbon is generally stronger for the forces a MTB will take in normal riding. Things like stronger around the headset and BB region, at least Santa Cruz is. Check out their video where they stress test Carbon vs Aluminum Nomads. However, Aluminum handles impacts to the actual frame better, like a rock strike or falling and the frame hitting a small point of impact like a rock/root/edge.
@@letour32rr what happened in that video is perfectly within the realm of what a mountain bike will experience over it's lifetime, and it cracking is a manufacture defect
I've always avoided carbon for mtbs. Actually I had an equivalent issue with carbon road wheels. These were £750 a pair. Deep rim. The rear rim was hit by a stone on a local lane and that spot delaminated. I sent photos to the manufacturer who said the warranty didn’t cover as it was an accident and not a manufacturing fault. For anything other than smooth roads I think carbon is risky.
I’m starting to see that. Thanks for sharing
That's retail for ya. No price tag on any item you purchase is ever worth what they asking for them. Retail always jscks their prices up 500%+. So it costs 500 bucks to make a Santa Cruz bicycle Frame. They turn around and sell one for $5k. Fox forks cost $150 to make and they turn around and sell them for $700++. Set of carbon wheels for a road bike cost $50 to make & they turn around and sell a pair for $700. Nada god damn thing is better than anything else. Most products that are outrageous prices just have better marketing teams. Just because you pay an arm and a leg for a product, doesn't mean that it is a superb product. It just means that the manufacturers are greedy & they know what people with deep+deeper pockets will pay for their products. All that marketing/advertisement really is, is propaganda. If I repeat something for a long enough time and then thus show you illustrations for a long enough time... All the money that I just invested into adcertising is going to pay me forward by 500,000%. Because I will just hace convinced/fooled all of you into believinh that my product is superb compared to products ya haven't ever really heard of. See how that works? Life & then there's sheep 🐑🐑
@@racismisterrorism9033That's a little naive. Sure, the costs might be cheap, but factor in time and money spent in prototyping, small production volume, sponsorships, marketing, shipping and storage costs, all the employee pay for manufacturers and retailers... It adds up. Nike shoes cost less than $2 to make. Apple phones?
Thanks for sharing
Nike shoes cost .23 cents to make. It isn't a little naive at all mate. It is 100% factual. You do not have to sell product's that you create for pennies or dollars for a gross amount of money. That is you and your company being greedy. If I sell Nike's for $5 a pair, and the intial cost to produce just one pair is only 23 pennies, I've already made Billions of dollars. Don't you see? If I sell Walmart no name brand shoes for $10, I am a billionaire. Either way you and your company end up very wealthy. It does not mean that a Nike shoe is better than a Walmart shoe. Because they are not. It is all marketing propaganda. Propaganda nevertheless that you CHOOSE to invest a ridiculous amount of your own personal wealth into. The same Chinese company who produce Walmart shoes have similar dividends to the Nike. Amd with little to no money spent on advertising costs. Because fact is, Walmart shoes aren't advertised. Lol. Guy who makes and sells Walmart shoes is driving around the same color/year Ferrari that the guy who owns/sells Nike's 😂🙈
Useful and thought-provoking info, thanks for sharing. You can see both sides - typically a "warranty" is meant to address defects in materials or workmanship, not acts of God. That said, MTB is a rough and tumble sport and bikes need to be able to withstand that. That section was mellow and you weren't doing anything inappropriate or reckless. Sometimes bad luck taps us on the shoulder - glad you found a solution and kept on rolling. I have SC Heckler w/ CC carbon frame, good to know how they approach these situations. Cheers bud....
Cheers! Thanks for sharing. I like seeing both sides as well.
I'd argue that this is the expected use scenario of a Mountainbike. Since the stone hitting the frame was not caused by an outside force, but the standard usage of the bike it has to be covered under the warenty. The explanation by the manufacturer is missing this simple point. If you'd drive a new car and due to a pebble kicked up by the wheel something structural would break, the manufacturer would very well be liable to fix the issue and even liability if it causes a crash.
Another point is that those bikes are expensive and made and even certified by the manufacturers own ratings. These would be usable against them, since those clearly state that those bikes are made to ride trails, downhill or most likely do big jumps.
@@strikerFPV I agree, cabon parts are cheap enough if you build them in bulk, they should just replace it.
holy molers a heckler with c carbon :O ur rich rich
I had a 2018 Nomad that i put through many many trail, enduro like and bike park miles. Last year i removed a leopard like pattern protective tape from DYEDBRO from the rear triangle and discovered a very small hair line crack. I send SC the pictures and explained how i have ridden my bike etc. They requested more pictures and after 3 days they approved a warranty replacement. However since they did not have in stock the 2018 frames anymore they actually shipped me a 2021 model. I was super happy with their customer service and how fast i got a new frame (10 days). I know people that have waited months for warranties replacements from other manufactures. I am really surprised you did not get that cover, but glad you have ridden that nomad hard since them.
Yeah to be honest the bike eats the chunky trails up. I have since put a protective tape on .. no problems since then.
I had a similar problem with my Nukeproof Giga. On my first ride, a pretty nasty rock hit the frame and ripped out a small piece of carbon. I called the dealer and he cleared everything with Nukeproof and they replaced the whole frame through the Crash Replacement program.
That a bummer. The more I learn about this subject the more surprised I get. How has the durability been since the replacement?
@@jacobgiraffa No problems so far but I haven't been out on the trails much since I got the replacement. But from my point of view the damage of the frame was not that bad but they replaced it anyway because the could not guarantee the durability of the fame over time. All in all I was pretty impressed that it was such a smooth process.
@@KeanyKing that sounds like a good experience. Did you have to pay for the replacement?
@@jacobgiraffa Nope. I just had to pay for shipping the frame to dealer because he is located a bit further away.
@@KeanyKing that’s not a bad deal! Glad to hear it worked out good. Thanks for the comments Kean.
That’s why I don’t mess with carbon AT ALL. Strong and yet so fragile
I would never ride carbon bars. That’s scary. Thanks for sharing!
The replacement front triangle cost $300. SC said they usually charge $600. Since the replacement I have installed thick 3m tape in the same location the rock hit. I have had gnarly wrecks and similar rock strikes with no problems.
This is the next best thing.
Im glad it kind of worked out.
Thank you so much for this kind of content. Keep grinding those trails!
Thanks bro, keep ripping the trails up as well. Cheers
had the near identical experience with my 2018 Nomad CC. On my 3rd ride a racket ball sized rock drilled a small hole in the down tube, just off the edge of the plastic guard. The hole penetrated nearly all layers of carbon. Got the exact same response from Santa Cruz. Told me I could buy a new triangle. I ended up sealing the hole with epoxy glue and Kept an eye on it. Alternatively, when I snapped both chain stays on my Intense 951 that was almost a year out of warranty, they replaced it with an M9 at no charge. Most people will never need warranty support but when you do, dealing with an honorable company makes a huge difference.
Thanks for sharing
The old santacruz probably would of honoured their warranty but I have seen a change in them since being purchased by a big company a few years back.
Good to know how reality of lifetime looks like.
Btw, BC POV broke his frame with his tigh, and Eric wasn't even hurt in his leg other than small bruise after the hit.
I saw that video and was upset he got a new frame… when he wrecked. Thanks for sharing
Now the reality looks even worse. No matter if You go for warranty or no fault replacement, you gonna wait 12 months. Also customer service is one of the worst I came across during many years - I have similar case and now I'm at the point where they decided to not communicate at all.
@@jacobgiraffa unfortunately, with social media marketing, we are paying for their rides, great customer service, and wear&tear replacements. And we get "claim denied"
Yeah it sucks
Foes Racing USA. I know the carbon fiber “plastic” bikes of today are very nice looking and for some reason they become the trendy thing. I’m still an old-school guy and I love my aluminum bikes. I ride a Foes and I absolutely love it, yes it’s heavier but that thing is built like a tank, it will never fail you. I know the pros ride the carbon fiber “plastic” bikes, but keep in mind they go through several frames per season, something that the rest of the 99% of us can’t afford to do.
So true. Thanks for sharing
Appreciate the vid and all of the comments with people’s experiences. Was about to pull the trigger on a SC…
Def going aluminum.
Thanks for sharing bro!
Thanks for sharing your story! I never really trusted carbon, that’s why I ride steel and I honestly love it. There’s a carelessness about crashing on a steel bike, and I did some dumb moves with mine for sure 😀
Thanks for sharing
So true. MTB I stick to metal frames as they can withstand abuse.
I remember a video where they tested the strength of the frame. Bashing it, dripping weight on the fork to simulate a short landing after a jump. The frame was enormously strong. Seeing this damage even under a guard leads me to believe the current frames aren't that tough. Prices go up, quality goes down.
I remember that video too. That is the video what convinced me. I think the quality in a lot of things are going down with the price going up! Thanks for sharing
Carbon fiber composite is extremely strong - only on some directions. It is very weak against direct impact.
@@georgiaguardian4696 that's why they wacked it against concrete and it didn't budge. To show impact resistance. But i guess the newer frames aren't that tough.
Maybe, thanks for sharing
"Prices go up, quality goes down."
That's what I've noticed across a broad spectrum of products over the last 20 years. When a company is profit orientated to keep the money flowing in, instead of quality builds + excellent aftersales service (like it was for decades in the industrial age), it seems, based on my experiences with manufactured goods (bought or examined) since the early 2000's, manufacturers hit on the idea that they can reduce quality and service, and folks will still buy their products...
...with only a small amount realising the scam being perpetrated and they cease buying from that company...hence manufacturers continue to rip others off with thier low quality products, and warranties designed to favor them, not the customer.
Cars, electrical and manual tools, processed foods, and even paint pens (my fav story).
Poska is one of the biggest manufacturers of art pens, well liked and respected by the thousands or millions that buy their products. A few years ago I bought several poska paint pens from different stores. Due to my experience of cheap paint pens on eBay, I chose to examine the Poska ones as well.
The cheap ones that sell for approx $1AU, upon taking them apart to see how much paint was inside, as I suspected something fishy was going on with them. I was amazed to find they were all 65-75% empty (various brands from different companies bought over a one year period), all using the same scam technique of only filling them up 25-35% but adding three heavy ball bearings (a bearing or in the past a glass marble used as a mixer) instead of one, to replace the weight lost by the lack of paint.
So I tried some trusted and popular Posca pens (twice the size, but three times the price).
My opinion, they're seasoned scammers because...
- they glue the cap on, so you can't see how much paint is missing.
- no net weight or volume written on the pens or on the web site.
- from their web site - stating pens won't be full to allow for mixing. Apparently one of the oldest and largest pen manufacturers has never heard of one steel or glass ball can be used to mix the contents...and has efficiently done so for decades.
I had to drill holes in the bottom of these expensive pens to measure the contents...all 60% empty.
Cheap spray paint from auto parts shops are the same, , up to 80% empty, and heavily diluted with paint thinners.
As the years go by, I notice more and more companies are adopting the 'reduce quality and service for maintaining and increasing profit' business model...regardless of company history or how large or respected they are.
Back around 1996 I had saved up for a trek 9.8 XV carbon bike after my first 3 mtb that where all chromoly. First ride I went to Bromont. Qc, went down a rock bed, a rock flew up and pierced the downtube. Then while riding back to my car, I had to cross a steam and I slipped on a rock and fell to the side and cracked my seatstay. I’ve had the bike a few days and this was its first off-road ride. I was so sure the frame was defective and this would be taken care of by trek, l was really surprised when trek said no. My dealer tried to help but trek said it wasn’t covered. So I had to buy a new frame but was strapped for cash so got an aluminum frame and had the shop transfer all components. I raced and ride the heck out of that bike and still have it today. In 2019 I replaced it as my main mountain bike and bought aluminum. No more carbon for mountain bikes for me. I just bought a gravel bike from giant and decided on carbon. Fingers crossed but as I will be riding it on paved and dirt roads, should not have problems.
Thanks for sharing! Love hearing all these stories!
When I watch this video, I can't stop thinking about Danny Macaskill hitting the carbon wheels on the stairs at the Santaz Cruz commercial.
I wonder how many sets he went through to make that video.
This is the reason i went with an alloy MTB over carbon, plus i like a ping noise instead of a thuck when the rocks strike.
What wasn't mentioned or I missed was the cost of the new triangle, am wondering if it was a small percentage of a new frame or full price?
It was $300 and SC said they usually charge $600.
Thanks for the video. I had a very similar incident with my 2016 nomad, except the frame didn't crack (small chip but it's still doing strong). The stock bashguard on Santa Cruz bikes is not fit for purpose, I strongly recommend buying a Rockguardz protector as a sacrificial layer - mine is now beaten to a pulp from rocks and I'm so glad my frame hasn't taken those hits.
I would agree. Thanks for sharing!
Trek makes their frame protectors out of OCLV Carbon=Carbon Armor and they are thick pads implying that a rock hit on underside of the frame beneath the pedals yields no cracks in carbon frame. I know this from personal riding experience. Good luck, Jacob.
Thank you Micheal!
@@jacobgiraffa My pleasure.
Thanks for the info!
Your welcome
Nice video man! You detailed the events perfectly!
Thanks dude. What is your bike made out of?
@@jacobgiraffa Carbon, but mine is a better carbon! 😏
@@kylebiemiller4313 haha nice! 😂
I had a really good experience with replacement of a carbon frame for my Giant trance a few years back. No obvious damage though - just a crack formed on the top tube. I think that a single rock strike should be covered. It’s should be built to withstand that. It’s mountain biking after all. I think the term used is “fit for intended purpose”. The car analogy was bogus.
Thanks for sharing
Fatigue cracking should be warranties. For sure. Impacts though, not so much. That's like expecting your car manufacturer to replace a car you ran into a post.
@@bustatron Fatigue is a long-term failure mechanism caused by repetitive cyclical movement. Cracks within the 1st few months (such as mine was) are frame strength problems either as a result of design or manufacturing deficiencies.
If I expect my bike to withstand the odd root strike on the bottom bracket then I expect it to manage a small rock strike. Different if I slammed into a tree (like car into a pole).
The story still shows the lack of any responsibility accepted by the manufacturer, which is somewhat concerning. Also no doubt design plus manufacturing improvements can reduce these risks. In this case the BB guard could have had greater coverage, for instance.
Unfortunately this is the big disadvantage of carbon fiber, it has a lot of strength in fiber (and tube) direction but it's sensitive if it gets impacted from the side. This side impact can be a result from a rock, or a crash. While metal is flexible and can also get dents without breaking instantly carbon fiber is flexible up to the point where it breaks, it can't bend like metal.
Personally I ride a Scott Aspect, a XC hardtail bike costing 10 % of this Santa Cruz, but it's good enough for me to have fun and it has a frame and rims made of aluminum, there's not a single part made of carbon fiber.
Nevertheless always a good ride and much fun on your Santa Cruz
Thanks for the support. Also thank you for sharing! My next frame build is probably going to be aluminum
@@jacobgiraffa Have a look at commencal! I've ridden my commencal meta AM on the north shore and in the whistler bike for about a year now and its still in great shape even after smacking the frame on more than a few rocks
Yeah my buddy had one of those. Beast of a bike! Cheers
I have been building and restoring bikes for 14 years. I have also serviced and repaired wheelchairs for 13 years to present. Both fields have carbon fiber examples. I know this is going to offend some people because I continuously have this conversation clients. Carbon fiber bikes and wheelchairs are garbage. Don't let your pride be hurt because of the price you paid. I have seen carbon fiber bikes and wheelchairs have epic failures over simple things like this rock hitting it...on a mountain bike....to ride around in areas where there is dirt and rocks.
Wheelchairs where the entire front of the frame snapped off. Some of our clients require special seating backs on the their chairs. These back require clamps to hold them on. One carbon fiber manufacturer stated that we can only tighten the clamps to 5 lbs of torque or it will crack or shatter the back canes. 5lbs of torque is like turning your wrench with your pinky and then letting a small cat hang from the wrench. They eventually had to provide aluminum canes to install when clients needed special backs and seating. Not to mention that carbon fiber looks like hell is short notice as it scratches if you look at it too hard. Another client wanted his frame replaced because it looked like hell on the sides from his transfers...the manufacturer basically said that he paid for the benefits of being lightweight and not for aesthetics. Some clients have very little upper body strength so they do what we call hard transfers and the carbon fiber chairs break all the time. It is a gimmick and don't let a salesman tell you otherwise...it comes at a premium price and if they are commissioned that means more chingo. They do not have to deal with it later. The service technicians have to all the time. A lot of people praise carbon fiber, but they spent tons of money on it and "need to tell you about it" or convince you to join the club to justify their choices. Carbon fiber performs outstandingly...on a dash of a car. Otherwise avoid it.
Thanks for sharing!
Good advice man i appreciate this video
Thanks for the support
Thanks for sharing and you're lucky to have that video footage of the incident! When I built up a new bike, carbon was definitely very attractive but I went with the heavier aluminium option because I couldn't bear the thought of a carbon frame sitting in a land fill for a hundred years. Only carbon thing I have on the bike is the handlebar for a bit of vibration damping. Have frequent rock strikes on the frame and it doesn't bother me one bit.
Thanks for sharing! Are you worried about the carbon bars breaking while your riding?
@@jacobgiraffa Not really.... I've seen my fair share of broken aluminium handlebars and the resulting bodily injuries. Carbon handlebars seem to be overbuilt by a large margin and designed to collapse rather than snap suddenly. The bars that we use on our enduro bikes are the same ones used on downhill bikes so they can take quite a bit of abuse. Aluminium also fatigues over time so it's kinda like a ticking time bomb. Used to change mine every year as a precaution. Rather that than face meeting the stem.
Yeah dude I have see carbon snap mid ride and it created a hospital trip… I hope the guy was okay.
I would have told Santa Cruz that the frame was defective because under this circumstance there is no way this rock could break the frame unless there were a factory defect. And how could you of known that there wasn’t a hairline fracture if there was a guard covering it?
Thank you for this video btw. It really put a lot of perspective when purchasing my carbon bike in the future
Thanks for sharing
I have a Santa Cruz nomad cc 2018 and in my last ride I found between the down tube and the head tube a crack, does anyone know if the Santa Cruz will replace it?
Not sure
How much was the additional cost?
I just bought a used SC Bronson and I'm wondering what it would cost if my frame had a similar rock strike.
Mine was $300 but I was the original owner. Not sure how much it would cost for a used bike
@@jacobgiraffa 300 for a carbon front triangle is a really good price. I bet that for second-hand buyers, the replacement is over a thousand.
When i walked into the bike shop to buy my bike last year I made it clear to the bike shop I prioritised durability through telling them that I wanted a bike that i could slam into a tree with all my might and the only damage done would be to the tree. Walked out with a steel hardtail👌
Haha 😂 that sounds like a beast! Thanks for sharing cheers
I had an aluminium hardtail that had a rock violently thrown up from the front wheel into the downtube. It left quite a noticeable dent but, was only cosmetic. I mentioned this to a friend and said I suspect that this would have been a frame failing strike had the frame been carbon. I also found a video of someone whose bike fell onto rocks during a slide out crash cracking the frame. Glad I found these videos as I dont want an expensive off road carbon frame that is great to ride providing there are no frame ruining rock impacts that would just mark or dent a metal frame. What is particularly annoying about this Santa Cruz example is I have seen a Santa Cruz video which shows SA testers apparently showing the frame is practically indestructible by deliberately smashing it as hard as possible against what looked like an anvil or solid concrete. Your real world experience says a lot about their frames true durability, paired with their reluctance to cover the cost under warranty. If the frames are as indestructible as their marketing video suggests you would think they would be surprised and keen to compensate you for this apparent anomaly frame failure.
Dents often lead to cracks so they are by no means just cosmetic..
@@Bonky-wonky Certainly never led to any in my considerable experience just a cosmetic annoyance.
Thanks for sharing
A year in to biking and I've recently Consider getting a carbon frame bike because it has everything I need, how much did you have to pay out of pocket?
$300
I ride an alloy 145mm trail bike that iv done DH races on. I wonder how a Santacruz bike would go with that? What are your thoughts?
Haha your gnarly dude. Racing DH on a trail bike. As for Santa Cruz I think the bike would perform well. My bike is so capable on the DH trails I ride.
2015 Knolly Warden... Bought it as a brand new frame and built it myself. Aluminum and titanium hardware, not a single carbon component. Crashed and hucked several times and only made a small ding on my down tube due to a tall drop that I rolled over and hit a rock. Had a few scratches on my bar and stem due to a rock garden DH wipeout. Other than that, its still pristine.
Dude sounds like a sweet RIG. Maybe even a tank lol thanks for sharing
When I bought my Propain Spindrift I consciously chose the aluminum frame. The main reason for this is what you show in your video. You can also get much better parts for the same price. I just ride for fun, I don't race at a high level and I don't have that ambition. The difference in weight is therefore not a valid reason for me to go for carbon. However, the difference between basic parts and high-end parts (especially suspension and brakes) is very noticeable in my opinion.
Yeah better suspension and brakes is gonna impact more than adding a pound or so
I agree ☝️
What a bullshit, can't read this shit about better parts anymore. Nothing affect the bike performance more than a GOOD FRAME. It's the base of a bike, the geometry and stiffness is the most noticeable thing, no matter what bling bling parts you got on it. Please understand this!
@@nilog8587 you can buy a fancy carbon frame with really low spec parts. weak brakes, fastwearing drivetrain, bad suspension and weak wheels, manufacturers sell that. you will be replacing all parts with after market parts in no time and that's way more expensive then getting a descent speced bike right away. of course you have to choose a good frame in the first place but aluminum frames are not bad though.
@@nilog8587 Wether the frame is alu or carbon, doesn't matter in that regard, the geometrie is the only thing that matters. Both with same geometrie will have their own cons and pros, but won't affect the capabilities of the finished bike at all. Stiffness-differences are very small nowadays, but also hardly have any impact on the driving-capabilities, more just on personal prefenrence.
So no, it's no bullshit. And comparing low budget drivetrains vs more expensive ones..yes they do have a huge impact, but depends on what and where you ride the bike. Dry vs wet conditions, muddy vs sandy, etc etc all makes a direct impact on the drivetrain. Same goes for suspension..fit a very cheap sr suntour fork in a carbon frame or a very nice more expensive Fox in a alu frame..I bet you'd take the aluminium bike on the feel alone, let alone the capability-differences of the bikes. So no, NO bullshit 😉
Actually choosing for a carbon frame, can often be a bad and very expensive choice, especially for non-competitive riders.
Btw forexample Scott bikes, or any reputable manufacturer,..geometrie of aluminium frames are the same as their carbon frames, no difference at all but weight.
Aren't there 2 options for carbon w Santa Cruz? C vs CC or something like that?
Yeah the frame in this video is c
I successfully warrantied a Santa Cruz Tallboy CC frame that cracked at no additional cost. That was back in 2015 which I think was before they were acquired. Maybe things are different now?
Maybe, thanks for sharing
Something similar happened to a friend of mine that owns a Yeti. Warranty did not cover his carbon frame after a rock cracked it. He was super bummed.
I have been thinking about getting the SB 150… it’s a bummer when you don’t have a bike
I had 6 different carbon bikes from Spezialized, Niner, Bulls, Canyon, Pinarello. 4 different from aluminium. The only ones that survived my years of cycling are one carbon from Bulls and 1 aluminium from a Dutch brand called Gazelle. I drove around 15000 a year, road and dirt. Did also stuff like driving down stairs and roads like in the movie. Al my carbon frames broke. Mostly in the crank area. That something was hitting the frames from the road and causing the damage is highly likely. Al frames where replaced under warranty. What this means. Never be to honest about the cause when a frame cracks. It totally ridiculous that manufacturers reject a claim when you drive a certain terrain. These bikes are build for that. But when you give a manufacturer to much information they always try their way out of their responsibility. After that your only choice is to accept or go wild on forums. This will hurt them big time. I did it once in another warranty case and got en new bike after I removed all of my complaints from several forums. (They asked me to do that)
Ha nice 👍 they gave you a new bike after you went public with the info?
The manufacturer is correct.
Your car analogy explains it all.
Now if the bike snapped/cracked for no reason then yes they would replace.
It would then be considered a manufacturing flaw.
If you had it to do over again would you buy a carbon or aluminum frame?
Aluminum frame
this is brutal
one of the reasons i went with santa cruz was my faith in their warranty
here is my santa cruz customer service experience
i wanted a new bottom link on my bike, it was looking a bit shabby
i called up SC and they told me i had to go to an authorized dealer in town for warrantied work, fair enough
my favorite LBS has been my go to for ever, but they weren't auth'ed to do warrantied repairs
while i was in line at the service counter, in just 15 m9inutes i knew i didn't want these monkeys touching my bike
i called back SC and explained my hesitations
they wont sell me a part directly either because i live in a city with an AD
i had to take my bike after they were done to my LBS to make sure the work was done correctly, which it wasn't
in fact they weren't even sure they could tell the work was done at all except for the new bolts
my damper wasn't tightened, and my caliper wasn't attached to the frame at all
i love SC, i had their skateboards, their surf boards, and i went with them for ym dream build
i own 7 others from back in the 90s, but i am going to be giving serious consideration to not buying another ever
absolute hog shit, their indifference to my concerns and wishes
i hate them now, because i loved them so much
Thanks for sharing.
Not the same company my dude... The bike company doesn't make that surf and skate shit.
@@jacobgiraffa You'd have been better off not telling them about the rock brew. That's called crash replacement every company does this. Most will sell you the replacement at cost. Next time just say you heard a pop while you were just "riding along" lol.
Yeah agreed
@@usurpedliberty9096 well u can forgive me for not making the connection over the last 40 years or more, i was only putting my viewpoint for context
I'm new to mountain biking and was heavily considering a carbon frame for my first bike. I compared the two materials and figured that since I'm new, I would have potentially, a lot more crashes and damage to the bike and it would not hold up over time as I progress. I picked up an alloy Transition Spire instead of the carbon model. There is so much 'hype' in the industry with carbon frames and it's made out to be the 'better' version, but it's simply not the case. I think if anyone is starting out in the sport that they should only consider an alloy frame because as your video pointed out, accidents do occur and sometimes they're costly. You can always sell your bike and get something at a later date anyways.
True words here! Thanks for sharing ☝️
Also, I recommend you start with a cheap used bike so that you're not afraid of breaking it while learning, then when you have good technique you progress to a more expensive bike
Yeah I agree ☝️ thanks for sharing
Even better vetern riders crack frames. Id never buy carbon MTB frame
I own a Carbon Santa Cruz and have put it through the ringer. It took me three years of serious riding in rocky central Oregon terrain before damaging it in a Crash.
Santa Cruz was unable to supply me with the rear triangle of my 2018 bike due to COVID supply chain issues. They instead offered me a huge discount on a newer model.
I was at first stoked on getting what I thought would be an upgrade until realizing that I needed almost all new parts for the new model because they had made so many changes. It’s a year later and I am still building up this new frame.
In the meantime I discovered that carbon can be repaired. It cost $300 and 3 weeks later my rear triangle was as good as new! This is one of the reasons I will always purchase carbon frames and we all know they feel way better to ride.
I would disagree. If anything I think carbon feels worse on the trails. Like every single bump gets transmitted into your hands. For xc I can understand people want a very stiff bike but for trail/enduro I think metal is the far better option. Plus no one wants to constantly stress that each and every little thing could be the end of the frame lol.
Thanks for sharing
I’ve cracked so many high end alloy frames that I don’t even dare try carbon lol
Thanks for sharing
Honestly Santa Cruz has a point, I wouldn’t blame them for not warranting your frame. There really isn’t anyone to blame it really was just unlucky that it happened the way it did.
Thanks for sharing
I disagree to the fullest. They put that bash guard there to protect the lower frame tube. A rock got past it, meaning their defense system was crappy. I have worked at bike shops and been riding downhill and dirt jumps for 13 years. Bike companies are whack with carbon. I always go metal and higher end suspension
What a bullshit... It should withstand that hit.. Can't make it durable for mtb don't make it and stick for trek indoors roadies
Thanks for sharing
☝️ I agree
Most warranties only apply if something breaks while the bike is tucked in bubblewrap in your garage.
Lol 😂 good point Pete!
What an eye-opener! I would have thought that Santa Cruz would have been more honorable than this. Almost every ride I have encountered little rocks like this - I wouldn't want to be riding a bike that is so fragile as to not handle regular mountain bike riding conditions and know that the life-time warranty means nothing. This clears up any conflict in my mind between going with Santa Cruz or Pivot for my next enduro and my next trail bikes.
Thanks for sharing, good luck with your new bike!
I literally was researching this bike frame...THANK YOU FOR SAVING ME THE HEARTACHE...
Your welcome! Thanks for the comment!
I'd probably "never say never" when it comes to a carbon frame, but I'm 100% satisfied with my alum frame MTB (Knolly Warden)!
Thanks for sharing!
idk how santa cruzs frame quality compares to other carbon bikes, but santa cruz has the best low pivot design out there with vpp, nothing can compare. I would recomend a santa cruz to anyone whose looking for the fastest low pivot bike
Agree! ☝️Bro this bike is so good on the trails! Thanks for sharing
Nowadays news of good customer service gets around. Carbon fiber will never be my material of choice because it has been proven to fail. Manufacturers that market durability under false pretenses should prepare for the backlash or move aside for those that will do the right thing. Bike frames are all about the geometry anyway, so consumers have alternatives. Thanks for sharing your experience
Thanks for sharing as well I agree with you!
Thank you for posting this video ... changed my mind on the carbon and saved me $2000 or more ...
Thanks for sharing
I previously had an aluminum full sus, now I've been riding an aluminum hardtail for around a year and the next one, no matter hardtail or full sus, will be an aluminum one as long as possible. Carbon breaks, and brands try with all their might not to replace it for free, those are facts.
A friend of mine and I had a similar crash in the same trail circuit a few weeks ago. I have an aluminum bike, landed against a tree, he has a carbon Trek hardtail, went OTB and the bike landed against some pointy rocks. I think you all guess the result: my frame got slightly dented, other than aesthetics still works perfectly. His frame cracked, talked to Trek and now he's paying extra money from a third party to get it fixed as Trek didn't take responsibility and he needs the bike ready for April 10th for bike ride we had scheduled and even paid for transportation already.
Dang that sucks, thanks for sharing
Aluminum Santa Cruz Chameleon R 27.5 plus, I will always run an aluminum aluminum frame. The weight savings on a carbon fiber do not outweigh the reliability of aluminum
I agree ☝️
Thanks for sharing
Thank you for sharing. Appreciate e information on e life time warranty on carbon frame.
Your welcome dude!
Thanks for the info :)
Your welcome, thanks for the comment.
I have a 2021 carbon Nomad. Been riding it for just about a year now, putting it through the paces, lots of miles and certainly some random rock flip-ups just like the one here in your video and several crashes too (maybe around 10 or so??). No cracks yet, knock on wood! The bike always feels so solid and stable yet I am fully aware that flukes happen and it totally sucks that it happened to you. It could happen to any one of us at any time. I'm surprised they weren't more accommodating, especially since this was your first freakin' ride on the thing. You did at least get a reduced rate on the new rear triangle, yes?? Even so, I am sure it wasn't cheap.
According to SC I payed a discounted front triangle price. It was $300 normally $600.
@@jacobgiraffa That's what the crash replacement warranty is, a discounted price on replacement frame parts damaged by impacts from crashing/rock strikes etc. If you could've attributed the crack to have been a manufacturing failure, then you would have rise to a replacement frame under their Lifetime Warranty.
@@madmountainman5197 I agree ☝️
i ride a 2016 santa cruz hightower had it since new never had any problems with the frame its a fantastic bike
I haven’t had any problems with the replacement frame. Thanks for sharing
Insanity man! I bought a 2021 Rocky Mountain Altitude, A70. One day the top and down tube just snapped. it snapped completely in half as i was very slowly going from point A to B. the oly thing that held the bike together was the ride wrap. I was on a flat section and not a steep roll or anything luckily. However the flat section was on the summit. i had to walk down with the bike draped over my shoulder. HORRIBLE HIKE
Anyways, I took it to the shop, they did they warranty calls and paper work. Rocky Mountain was absolutely excellent. Not only did they cover everything they also upgraded my frame from aluminum to carbon for free. I have not had an issue since and will always ride rocky mountain.
That sounds like a great experience. I would stick with them too! Might need to make the switch.
Best advice,, thanks bro,,
Did they offer you a discount on the new frame?
Yes, it was roughly 50% off
It’s unfortunate this happened to you, and I’m sure you’re not the only one. I’ve had similar rock strikes and pretty major crashes on my carbon Santa Cruz without a problem. So I’m hoping that your experience is a freak occurrence or you had a ‘defective’ frame.
I would also consider that this could happen with any bike, and that aluminum frames bikes often sustain major dents when hit by big rocks, rendering the frames unridable as well.
But I think you nailed it. I could see where SC could claim they are not responsible if you had abused the bike. But they should have covered the frame in this case if they want to keep the reputation that their bikes can stand up to normal trail riding conditions, which this was.
I agree with you. Thank you for taking the time to write this comment. Means a lot! The bike shop originally talked about putting epoxy on the frame, until they saw the crack. Also I really don't expect myself to buy another Santa Cruz after this experience. If it were the other way around and they replaced the frame no questions asked, I probably would have stuck with Santa Cruz for a while. Im looking into getting a specialized now. Have you heard any bad experiences with them?
Currently I'm having the same issue with Santa Cruz Bronson 2020. No crash, no hitting anything big. Found a crack close to the plastic frame protection. They just answered it is customer fault and recommended to "ride and inspect". It might be similar situation to Jacobs (hit by a rock). This cover is worthless, probably badly designed for a mountain bike (when small rocks can hit bottom part of the bike). On the other side they position their carbon frame as stronger than aluminium (pinkbike movie), also sponsoring aggressive riders like 50/01 team. At the end of the day, after pushing them for a crash replacement, they answer they will put me on a waiting list with around a year of waiting for new front triangle. So it seems they have funny understanding of "possibly fast" in their policy "we put You back on the bike asap".
@@MrZwiraldo I’m sorry to hear about this. It’s sucks when this stuff happens. Your example I would think they should replace it… when did it crack? How long did you have the bike?
@@jacobgiraffa I bought it end of 2020 and started riding last year. It was one season. Found the crack in February during service and inspection, as I was preparing bike for this year. Seems like I wont have a bike for this season, if fhey at least wont propose better time of no warranty replacement. Up to this point, Customer Service, or Rider support team, how they call it, is doing rather crappy job. I'm amazed how much does it differs from SC warranty legend. Had definitely better experiences with Direct brands, where whole bike cost was a Santa Cruz frame.
@@MrZwiraldo yeah that’s a shame. That’s a bummer. This total event took a month or so… I’m not sure what the normal turn around time is but it sucked not having a bike for a week. And I didn’t have mine for a month it sucks.. I’m hoping you get your bike back soon.
Yo bro that sucks. I bought my Santa Cruz 5010 about six months ago and absolutely love it. I watched their carbon testing videos online and I was convinced the frames were even more solid than the aluminum frames. The way that rock hit the frame was super unlucky but still shouldn’t have done THAT much damage in my opinion. Crazy. Def has me sketched out haha. Btw I noticed you’re at codorus! My wife and I ride there all the time! Digged the video and subscribed. Better luck in the future my guy! 🤙
What convinced me was the pink bike video. Cool maybe I will see you out on the trail! Thanks for the support! 👍
@@jacobgiraffa yup watched that same video haha and absolutely bro, catch you out there! 🤙
I remember watching your first video a few years ago!
I only buy "High Modulus" Carbon, this stuff can really take a hit.
Thanks glad to see the video got to you. This is my new channel!
I do not want to sound like a jerk saying “I knew it”, but this exactly what puts me off of carbon of any brand. To me, it only has a place in XC, or of someone is a pro EN/DH racer competing in world cup. Thank you for letting us know how the brand handles lifetime warranty. You have also made more sure about my choice. I am not gonna spend thousands on any of these big brands bike. My bike will be fillet brazed steel. I will make it, an will repair it if anything happens. Custom, sustainable, repairable and no possibility of material fatigue.
Thanks for sharing
Make a Kydex bash Guard with 3M foam tape between it and the frame. Some videos out there about it. Nice easy upgrade
That’s a good idea! Thanks for the tip Jason.
@@jacobgiraffa A Hard carbon/ Plastic protector is even better.
@@raupenimmersatt6906 really? Thanks for the tip
@@jacobgiraffa Yeah because the softer Material transfers the Impact to the carbon and absorbs it.
A Hard Plastic or carbon prodector just breaks but wont transfer the impact as much. And the harder the protector is, the easier it slides over rocks.
Look at Frameguard by Rockstop.
This is a big reason I ride Alloy. I have a Commencal Clash Signature. I have no worries about the frame breaking from rocks being kicked up.
Yeah, I had an alloy hard tail before this bike. Since I got the new triangle back on this bike I have had similar rock strikes a and have had no problems so far… knock on wood
Same ! I have just bought a Clash also after riding SantaCruz bikes for over 15 years and I’m glad to be back on alloy !
@@scottweir3162 isn’t that commencal?
Aluminum Bronson here, and got a small dent in a very close position when brand new about 5 years ago. No troubles with it, and one of the reasons I bought aluminum. Aluminum wheels, aluminum bars.... Oh, and note, Santa Cruz scrubbed the video of them in their plant bashing a steel column with a new frame to show it suffered no damage.
@@gregdziewit6945 you talking about the pink bike video?
Excellent vídeo Master!... thanks to share the true about manufacturers warranties.
Thanks for the support… also thanks for sharing
Maybe SC should put a disclaimer on all their bikes “Do not ride this bike in the rocks” unreal
Agreed
Yeah I just bought my first carbon bike - SC HT. Will see how long it lasts. If the same happens I'll just go back to AL frames and that will be that. It's a major gamble with carbon for sure. Huge price tag for that weight savings. I waffle for a while then just dove in. Decided to go with the risk in favor of what everyone else has been enjoying. Crossing fingers I don't experience the same. It is quite nice saving 5 lbs overall. Can feel every lb.
I love how my bike feels on the trail
@@jacobgiraffa where do you ride?
Bike parks and gnarly downhill trails. I have been to blue mountain, windrock, mountain Creek really all over! WBU
@@jacobgiraffa just back from a month in Sedona. Unreal. Likely heading to Pisgah in next month or so. Never been.
Sounds awesome! Hope you have fun!
I grew up when steel frames dominated the bicycle industry. I never developed a longing for carbon. Carbon has no aesthetic appeal for me, although I know it is an excellent bicycle frame material.
I ride steel, aluminum, and titanium bikes. All three metals are easily recycled. Neither metal is subject to "sudden catastrophic failure."
Thanks for sharing! I think I might be Turing to one of those for my next bike.
I’ve had fantastic experiences with Yeti! Bought a frame from them, while building it up with all my parts I discovered a crack in the seat tube… Brought it in to the nearest LBS that deals yeti bikes and they hooked me up with a new frame for free in about 3 weeks!
I have been looking at the SB150 which one do you have?
@@jacobgiraffa I have the Yeti ARC
Cool! do you like it?
..thanks for sharing your experience with us..thats one reason, I only go for steel..I dont care about the extra weight..and I am only a freetime rider with minor skills..steel is robust..easy to fix (to a certain point) and its the material humans have the most experience with..hope that your bike will hold on for many more rides to come..cheers..
Thanks for sharing steel bikes are BEASTS. Cheers
Another reason to go with metal frames is that these carbon frames will be sitting in a landfill for the next 100 yrs...
Thanks for sharing
Hi,
I'm glad you've had a good few years of fun despite what happened to your frame. I've had carbon and aluminium framed bikes in the past. I now have a steel bike. It's a Stanton Switch9er FS. The main reason I want for this was frame durability. A carbon bike in my opinion is like a plastic bike. They look great but have next to no impact resistance as you found out yourself. My bike is a kilo or two heavier than a carbon bike but it will last forever!
True words ☝️thanks for sharing
As I can relate to the frustration, they really didn’t do anything wrong. It’s stated pretty clearly that the warranty is “due to manufacturing defect”. And alloy frame likely would have been dented at least by that rock hit. And a dent in alloy will compromise integrity. Also there is no law that even obligates them to offer a discount toward a replacement. There’s a lot of premium bike frames that don’t even offer that long of a warranty. I do appreciate your position and your right to an opinion though. Having said that, no company that wants to stay in business is just going to give away a frame to everyone that breaks one. Glad you got it sorted 👍🏻
Thank you for the comment , I understand your position. But the main reason for the video is because most people in my opinion do not read the fine print. I agree that Santa Cruz did what they needed to do financially. I also fully appreciate the discount that was provided. But after spending the initial amount on the bike, the discounted repair was hard to bring forward. I also agree that Santa Cruz compared to other bike manufacturers are better with their warranty. I personally think there was a defect in the frame. Because I have had similar rock smashes/ jump cases… But I might be a little bias. Thanks again Phil!
@@jacobgiraffa totally get it, it’s hard to say weather or not there was a defect for sure, haven’t had this happen to a frame but a back wheel, not Santa Cruz, had not had the wheel long and broke it after hitting a root. It was a hard hit to be fair, and it cracked the rim. Got a crash replacement and then still had to pay to have the wheel built. Definitely tough to swallow. I just don’t think the outcome would’ve been much different with another company. Since SC has instituted their lifetime warranty there’s a lot of people that have taken unscrupulous advantage of it. I think in the past they may have replaced it but due to other peoples misuse this is where we are…👍🏻cheers
@@mrsmith326 totally agree. Cheers!
@@jacobgiraffa I’d be upset too, at least expect a discounted triangle. Is there no downtube protection? Ik many carbon bikes have the plastic protective strip along the down tube
@@Wheelsanstuff the bike does have a protector but the location the rock hit the frame there was no protection. Since then I have put 3m tape in these exposed locations.
I bought a carbon tallboy last year and it had an ovalized head tube causing a cracking noise from the front of the bike. I was supposed to be sent a new front triangle in July of last year. Almost no questions asked. I didn’t recieve the frame until December after contacting them a few times. They did send me a new frame, including a rear triangle too, but the bike was a different color due to model year. They claim they oversold the frame when I was supposed to get mine but at least I got my tallboy frame.
Glad to hear it worked out. Thanks for sharing
so which companies ARE good about honoring the warranty?
I’m not sure
I have watched their aluminum vs carbon videos and am surprised they didn’t stand behind their product I mean it cracked while you were cruising and you had a protector on top of that. Just when I was going to finally get a carbon frame to build. Now I don’t know if I am. Great video.
Thanks for the support. What frame were you going to build? Brand?
@@jacobgiraffa Turner RFX.
I’m not familiar with that brand but it sounds sick!
It’s not about them standing behind there product. Warranty’s cover defective materials or workmanship. Neither was the case here. He crashed so he got a crash replacement priced frame.
@@jacobgiraffa you hit a rock and your bike broke right? That’s a crash. It’s not like somebody threw a rock at you.
I was on the impression that their lifetime warranty is meant to cover anything. I currently ride a Canyon & have heared good stories about their warranty. But for my next build I'm going with a frame from Carbonda (China) as they basically have thesame kind if warranty as this for a fraction of the price.
Thanks for sharing!
So many videos of people getting hurt on Chinese carbon bikes/handlebars/wheels. Hope it's worth saving the money.
@@Druezy this is carbonda where many smaller bike companies buy their frames from.
@@Druezy carzy thing is when carbon breaks it breaks bad. I was lucky.
If a company offers *THAT* kind of warranty, it's probably because it *WILL* break, and once you get sick of breaking them, say, two or three, you give up on the process, and they've manufactured them so cheap that they still made money off of you.
Thx for Sharing the Story i have an Aluminium Focus Jam .
Cool another aluminum frame!
Now this is a real "watch this video before [...]" video that is worth the title. Because it's not obvious, unlike in the other similar named videos that just tell you common sense things. Great information! And I'm sorry about the situation.
Thanks for sharing, glad to hear you like the video!
Being a SC rider myself, that’s a big bummer to see your frame cracked, but it also seems like an outlier situation that most warranties of this nature avoid for good reason. Santa Cruz provided the right working example, and the bike industry shouldn’t be forced to account for what is essentially an act of God or shitty luck. Crash programs are still clutch even though this doesn’t seem ideal when the words lifetime warranty preceded it.
Would have been helpful to share the overall cost as well, but still insightful for those who might make decisions based on warranty/ service. Sorry if this seems jaded, but when you’ve work in manufacturing it makes a hell of a lot more sense.
Word to the wise, don’t show the video of it happening, and read the warranty in full for what they do cover. Play the game and get what you want.
Thanks for sharing, not sure if you saw the pinned comment. It was $300 for the replacement.
Sorry I didn’t mention this info I’m kicking myself in the butt now…
Well said.
No one's riding an mtb longer than 5-8 years. With the more "premium" brands like SC, you would imagine Lifetime Warranty means they'll take care of you unlike other brands. It seems they really aren't any different but ask for at least a 20-40% higher price. I definitely thought this was the kind of thing they would take care of. Sad to see they leave people out to dry with a first ride incident like this. If you asked most people why they buy SC, I think they would say something like "the brand is solid and they have your back in a worst case scenario" but apparently that's not the case.
@@dylan-5287 dude..he only had to pay 300bucks. Lol He messed up by showing the video. If he had a really good relationship with his LBS the lifetime warranty would have been taken care of. It's all about who you know and how you word things when it comes to frame replacement warranties. Lol real talk..like it or not.
That’s a common story among carbon frame riders. Something i’ve considered before for sure…such great weight savings and a compliant ride too?!?! I went with a Ti frame on my most recent bike. Hard tail and it took some adjustments to picking lines and trails that fit how I wanna ride nowadays. Luckily it was just a triangle replacement and not the whole frame! 👍🏼 Enjoy riding!
Thanks for the comment Thomas, I really wish I knew this before buying a carbon frame. I might be moving to aluminum… cheers
@@jacobgiraffa I've heard of people having rocks take chunks out of their aluminum frames though, from what I've heard the main advantage with alloys is that when they break it's not usually as catastrophic.
True thanks for the insight
This is why I do direct to consumer. For the $5000 you spent on that bike you get way more and in some cases a top end bike or close to it for that price. I buy from chain Reaction Cycles in Europe and they have a no questions asked warranty. Good luck bro
Thanks for sharing!
I have an aluminum hardtail. The reasons I bought aluminum are the same reasons I bought a hardtail: durability/low maintenance. Why? Money, lengthy repair waits, supply chain breakdowns, collapse of the dollar, WWIII, and Mad Max.
Lol all great reasons that are equally concerning. Thanks for sharing
Me too... Carbon cannondale jekyll exactly the same damage as you had. I'm sure manufacturers know this is a common problem but won't fit decent frame protection as they know they'll make more money when this s##t happens. Of all the carbon bikes I've had the only one that I didn't break was an Sworks enduro, I won't buy another carbon bike again
That’s a shame. I think I’m going to give carbon another chance. Unfortunately that’s what most company’s care about, profit…
Aluminum is better???
Aluminum is better??
👍
@@jacobgiraffa should probably avoid Evil too, I've seen Van Can had issues with cracking several Following frames. He has a vid on the subject.
This is why, despite the weight penalty, I always ride Aluminium, this includes wheels.
True, dents are better than cracks.
I kinda wish I just had a dent lol 😂
@@__marshie Not really, people are just ignorant to the loss of structural integrity a dent causes. Cracked carbon and dented aluminum are very similar on integrity, just not visually. As for wheels, you will have broken aluminum wheels many times over before you break a carbon rim.
@@jacobgiraffa Don't be, if you had dented aluminum it would be just as compromised and prone to catastrophic failure, the only difference is you would have kept riding it till it caused a serious crash. This is the myth of aluminum, and it's only because people don't understand structural integrity and tubular shapes, so they just see dent as fine but cracks as terrible when they are really the same.
@@paradox963 that is so true. And carbon lets you know when it’s broken because it just doesn’t work 😂
You don’t understand how a warranty works. It’s for defects or workmanship issues. Their analogy regarding the car is spot on. If you smashed the bike into a rock and cracked it would you expect that to be covered too?
Thanks for sharing your opinion
so if you wreck your car should that be covered under warranty?
Probably not but in my opinion this is normal riding conditions. Thanks for sharing
I always go steel with better suspension. Lower chance of breaking. I've seen countless friends get carbon frames ruined. Only one time have I seen a metal frame break and it was a 2009 specialized demo. Friend cased a 35 footer and the welds from the headset to the top and bottom tubes ripped apart
Wow that’s wild. Kinda scary actually
@Hiei, Steel?
The 2009 Demo Frame is Aluminium! Most Mtb‘s don’t ride CroMoly anymore.
Mostly Aluminum, Titan, Carbon.
I prefer Alu.
@@MrYesNeinMaybe yeah, I like steel dirt jumpers. But I said the demo was metal. That doesn't imply which metal. So are you telling me aluminum isn't metal?
i am a composite laminator and have been in this business for about 12 years now, work ranging from formula one all the way through military aerospace, i can confirm what happened to your bike there was not your fault but the result of very poor design and either a lack of material or simply wrong choice of material, i can think of at least 2 material types that would render the underside of your bike practically bulletproof at the sacrifice of maybe a half gram, santa cruz or any other manufacturer dabbling with carbon need to be very careful, well done for making this video mate
Thank you and Thanks for sharing.
steel frame here, 30 plus years on the mountains, dropped from a cliff, almost lost on the river, and still ROCK solid... xD
As to be expected with a steel frame sounds like a tank. Thanks for sharing
I have 2 rules when buying my own bike:
1. Hardtail is life!!
2. Metal is the best genre!!
True lol thanks for sharing
I work for a Trek dealer. That frame would have been warrantied no questions asked. Trek wants people to continue buying their product so they take care of their customers.
Thats interesting. Thanks for sharing.
I've talked to some people that couldn't get a carbon trek frame covered for similar rock damage. I want to switch my ex frame for a slash but the only sets available are carbon. I'm just waiting for the 2023 aluminum models to show up.
Dude hopefully they are still going to make aluminum! Thanks for sharing
I had a 2009 Trek Fuel ex 5 that I cracked the rear triangle at the weld. Trek offered me $1000 towards a new Trek so I ended up getting a 2019 Fuel ex 5. 29r instead of 26r.
@@jacobgiraffa I talked with a trek rep and he said they sold out of the 2022 aluminums pretty fast was all. The 2023's should be in around August.
I've been riding my canyon CF strive for 6 years on a rocky trails but i never had any issues. Ride safe guys
Nice 👍 thanks for the comment
Must say. We had a terrible experience with Canyon customer service when we were dealing with cracked carbon rims and then a cracked frame. Will never purchase a Canyon product again, ever.
@@markedwards7601 thanks for sharing! What brand do you ride now?
This is the reason, why i decided to myself don t by a Santa Cruz......
Have had a few rocks like that kick up on the downtube and bottom bracket area like you on my aluminum bikes and never had a problem. Just a tiny barely noticeable dink on one of them but perfectly fine. I always been skeptical about getting a carbon bike but after watching this I'll be sticking to my trusty aluminum frames
Haha might be moving that way brother. Thanks for sharing
I have a 2021 Tallboy C and I haven't had any issues with it and I beat it up quite a bit. I did add a OneUp bash guard to it cause I have similar concerns. Having a rock fly at it though? Wow that's really unfortunate.
Imo the situation went down as best as it could. Their exploration is pretty on point, but I don't think it means their frames are flimsy... Tbf that's the world you step in with going with carbon.
I 100% see your frustration though. I would be pretty pissed off but probably more at the situation rather than at SC directly... They probably did the best they could financially given the circumstance
I've personally seen GT, Trek, Specialized and Canyon frames crack right in front of my eyes from the buddies I ride with. They all have different stories as to what each manufacturer did... Hopefully the bike holds up and you don't have any more issues. Bummer!
Thanks for the comment! Do you like your Tallboy? Also I might get that bash hard, seems like a good idea.
Idk I feel like that explanation is a cop out. You were using it as intended, in the environment as intended. Don’t get me wrong, the rock hitting it and doing that is a freak accident but Santa cruz should’ve replaced it.
@@mathew435 I agree. Thanks for sharing.
@@jacobgiraffa love it! I'm a heavier rider so when I ride my bike I know I'm putting it through a ton a stress given how I ride also. Bash guard has been great
@@mathew435 yeah honestly... Considering they even say themselves they make bikes to last a "lifetime" ... I can easily see how replacing it is the right call. It's a tough situation. Idk I flip flop on opinion personally