As a Dutchman, an open-air shopping street is a great thing in good weather. But an enclosed shopping mall can be a good thing when the weather is less great. Clustering shops attracts customers, and everyone benefits. And in newer shopping centres it's not uncommon to have parking in the basement, one or two floors of shops, then another three or four layers of housing on top of that. *deep breath* Take the orange pill. We've got stroopwafels.
Keep in mind, our little orange country is extremely densely populated. We call it a small country, others might call it a huge city. With land values, going underground and compact makes a LOT of sense in NL. The states are a different story altogether, especially in more rural areas. Also, the states is pretty much all cars, zero public transportation. In NL there's certainly 2 or 3 public transportation options to get to the mall. In the states pretty much everyone is gonne be coming by car.
Yeah, public transport is (mostly) very good, and people are used to it. The only thing we don't have is affordable taxis, most are more like limo-service. These taxis sit around all day until they have a profitable trip, mostly to the airport. Only people with too much money and people who have no other option (often elderly) use them. Maybe with Uber these taxi mobsters will finally change... But maybe because of that lack of that last step in door to door transport, trains, trams and buses have very good coverage.
There is an intersection near where I live where one of the intersecting roads runs down the front of a large grocery store. Bonus: there is a slip lane to get onto that road as quickly as possible. Immediately upon entering that road is the main entrance to the store. The incident rate of people getting hit by cars at that spot is so high that there is often an ambulance parked in the lot during rush hour times, especially in the winter when it gets dark early. It's just astonishing that design like that is allowed at all but I see it all the time around here.
The issue of forcing traffic along the store frontage - generating conflict between automotive and pedestrian traffic - seems to be very much a 2000s-2010s issue. (I've paused @7:35, so you this might coincide with later portions of this video.) The dominant design of the 1950s-1960s was to quarter/bisect the parking area, with access perpendicular to and parking aisles parallel to the dominant store frontage. This seems to largely be descended from the perpendicular on-street parking of older downtown districts. Shopping centers of the era tended to be smaller affairs - more like pedestrian plazas with parking spaces than anything most people know about nowadays. In the late 1970s to early 1990s, the 'ring and spoke' design philosophy seemed to dominate. Whether a small shopping plaza or a ginormous mega-mall, the key access trait was using perpendicular parking aisles to isolate store frontage from a parallel access roadway - one which bisected big-box retail strips or created a ring road to surround a mega-mall. This was further bisected by a secondary 'parking stroad', usually about one-third the distance between the store frontage and the primary access road. This design philosophy is responsible for the asphalt oceans so many RUclipsrs (others, not you) perpetually knot their panties over. In the early 2000s, the design philosophy you rail about here (again, near the @7:36 point) came to dominate - concentrating automotive traffic along the store frontage and making the shopping experience immensely unpleasant from both an automotive and pedestrian perspective. There's a mantra from the software development ecosystem which was clearly not heeded here; "Never let programmers design and never allow designers to code."
Was visiting a local mall today... I think it ticks most of your boxes around parking, but the one catch is that although *close* to a major bus hub, that hub (over by the highway) is still about a half-mile walk across what's basically grassy wasteland. Not an unpleasant walk on a nice day like today, but it really would have been good if they'd found a way to integrate them better.
I've been watching you for over a year, but never engaged. Apologies for that, because I've learned more from you than any other creator I've followed. I'm happy you're back, and I feel your passion not just in CS, but also in our every day lives. Bottles up for a future where all forms of interaction are equally embraced, suburb, rural, and downtown alike.
our shops and malls are set up the same way (Detroit area) and I've NEVER driven across the front of any store... it's terrifying when the electronic doors open and someone's little brat come running out without paying attention. I always turn immediately and drive to the back lot and look for a spot to park. I leave the same way, too.
Watching your videos is always entertaining because I get local examples. Looked down and saw Lee Highway (near where I live), was really confused until i remembered whose channel i was watching.
This was great! I actually deal with some of these things in my real job. You nailed it with minimizing conflict points between pedestrians and vehicles and implementing transit options. Thanks for another great video!
I’ve seen that absolutely abysmal layout of having the main way in and out of a shopping center right in front of the shops and can absolutely agree that it is the absolute worst possible layout that creates infinitely more conflict points between vehicles and pedestrians than should have ever been allowed to happen. It’s a nuisance for the drivers trying to get in and out, a dangerous scenario for pedestrians, ruins the frontage of the shops with constant noise and pollution for patrons. Glad to see someone else who is extremely passionate about just how awful of urban planning it is
You know what? I really liked this video. There is always a lot of talk about how great everything is in europe compared to US city planning, but as a european myself I have to admit there is still so much to do. Where I live and just as much where you live, over the pond. That last shopping area you showed on google maps seems to be a good step in the right direction, and once the metro reaches even better. You did seem to miss the plaza and little lake in the build though ;D
I dig the design with the pedestrian only roads, though realistically speaking the shops - especially those towards the interior (or higher density areas) - would need more access roads for logistics. You wouldn't want large delivery trucks to offload their goods in the parking lot. Even just a couple small restricted access roads would be fine, but it definitely complicates the design a bit.
In CS it works with a ped area access point, but IRL vans would make morning deliveries to the storefronts on the ped street. Thats how areas like this function in other places.
So many flashbacks! As a NoVa kid in the 80s, I remember when Fair Oaks was THE mall for folks further out along 66. The stroads have always been mighty along that Manassas - Centreville - Fairfax route. Thanks for such an instructive video!
Shopping malls in the Philippines are parking lot simulators as well but they’re designed in a way that the main doors are placed directly perpendicular to the main road. That way, people who ride public transport and pedestrians can access the mall easily without having to walk 250 meters of asphalt park. Parking lots are placed on the right and the left side of the mall with underground parking. They oftentimes have public transport terminals as well. The newer ones has green spaces inside, sometimes with a big courtyard or park feature at its center. Heck, the mall nearest to me has the river inside their mall. It encourages people to congregate at the center first and then go outward. It’s not park-grab-and-go like in the U.S. The malls in the Philippines are designed to force you to buy more stuff, go window shopping, sip some coffee, do bowling, get a massage or watch the cinema even though your only intention is to buy a few groceries. And they’re two to four levels with elevators and escalators with lots of glass and windows so that natural light comes in. Problem with the U.S. style of malls and commercial centers is they discourage pedestrians to enter their vicinity. If you enter their area as a pedestrian, you’ll look like a poor person that can’t afford a car. Been in the U.S. twice visiting my aunt and I can say shopping was a terrible experience specially in the suburbs. The neighborhoods looks posh and beautiful but everyone and everything feels away from you, it’s lifeless and too quiet for me.
Holy sh!t YUMBL, I was born in Manassas in 1975, and I went to London Towne Elementary School in Centreville from 1980-1984. I moved to Dallas in 1984, so I haven't seen the area since the early 80's. What an ABSOLUTE trip down memory lane. THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I'd watch more of these. You point out real world problems, explain why they're problematic and then offer solutions and show examples! Great job! Also checking out maps is real fun
I love this! Thanks for the excellent video. We just went on a cruise and had to park in a garage 4 to 5 blocks from the ship dock and drag out luggage. Not a single sidewalk to be seen. It would be nice if places like that would be pedestrian and car friendly in the way you just did.
Yumbl's back! It's been a while! I live not far from you up in NJ and have all the same sorts of stroads and parking lot issues you describe. When I lived in Rhode Island, there was a parking lot that was so badly designed you turned from the stroad to the left of a divider and drove down the left side of a divided street. Since I was new to the area, all my instincts were to keep to the right, so I did, and got beeped at and yelled at profusely by the locals. 😠
This is the best use/layout I've seen of the pedestrian roads. I think it's because of the holistic approach that considers where cars go and the central/ring nature of it. This looks like something that would actually exist.
There's something very surreal watching you zoom in where I live and analyze the shopping centers I frequent. That said, I agree newgate is a nightmare as both a driver and a pedestrian, and maybe one of these days they'll stop teasing and then axing plans to extend the orange line out.
Can you please upload a short or something where you just... let this little build run? Like a mini timelapse. I want to see the cars park and citizens interact with it. With TMPE settings enabled of course
Hoping your well deserved break from regular videos refilled your joy in playing and producing. Glad to see another video of yours, again you made me think "never thought about it like this"... Great you're back, thanks for some fresh inspiration
I had just checked your channel this morning looking, and hoping for an upload. Then you post one this afternoon 😄. Such an interesting topic and video. I like how you don't spin your wheels bashing American planning. Rather, you take an optimistic viewpoint and offer potential solutions to our deeply ingrained car dependent ways. While also highlighting good examples of American planning
Glad to see you back making videos, missed ya! I'm in the process of making a new city, so I'm going to incorporate these parking strategies and even try to mimic the good example you showed us. Cheers!
New subscriber here.. been 'lurking', watching many of your past videos and have learned a great deal.. good stuff! I'm onboard with you about 'certain' parking lot areas.. well said. As far as CS goes, I've become a big fan of the Big Parking Lot mod in addition to Parking Lot Roads.. both have their place.. I recall you covering it. A bit fussy, but when you get it.. it's great!
I love it! I have no ears because they've been talked off! 🤣 Really nice explanation and I like the fact that you found a way to incorporate a metro stop in the center of the shopping area. Don't know about other area's of the country, but here in Texas we call them a 'City Center'. Outstanding stuff!
Lol... I grew up in Chantilly and remember when nearly none of that stuff was there. I think the post office was the anchor in that shopping center, but otherwise it was all sketchy stripmall everywhere there. My mom sold a lot of the townhouses around that year in the 80s and 90s. Haven't been back there in more than a decade, so it's interesting to hear your commentary on how it has "evolved." :)
in defense of the overbuilt shopping malls, they really were that busy back in the day, ya' know? I miss the malls, but online shopping killed that fast. We have a dying mall out here that I'm surprised is still going. It's holding on to life with it's pinky finger.
Very interesting points and real life tie in. Your chalk to age is correct btw. In fact, where I live and have lived, NY/NJ/PA tri-state area, very often the population has boomed so exponentially over just even a decade or so (not to mention the 30-40 years since many of these plazas were built), that the initial designers could not have imagined this future bottleneck. That being said of course, the original design was for sure flawed in that it allowed a potential future bottleneck. But, it's important to have context. Unexpected future != exclusively bad design. Hence why, budget for retrofitting is the real forward thinking winner. (The very thing we all do in skylines challenge runs as the pop grows ) This is also a microcosm of North American demographics, the US in particular, given most of the 330 million people live not only east of the Mississippi river, but further coalesced in these dense metropolitan areas like yours and mine. Anyway, data share over, great skylines vid. Dig your content!
Great Video! I've always designed these spaces in Cities Skylines with all the parking in the middle and the shops around the perimeter. Because thats what I SEE in the world for most shopping centers (besides malls). But this is sooo much better
Your frustration with that insanely idiotic parking lot design hits home! No idea behind the logic (if any) of these parking lot designs, but they are everywhere in American suburbs; as if living in a car-centric suburb isn't stressful enough...
When I lived in Madison, Wis, the Walmart on the west side of the city had ground floor parking with the store built over it, which I think is a brilliant solution to the issue of parking, because you not only fulfill two necessary purposes with the same piece of real estate, but the shopping experience was greatly improved, as anyone who has experienced a brutal midwestern winter can attest. Now, they also had a small amount of uncovered parking, no doubt to fulfill parking minimum requirements, which were probably only used on Black Friday. While such construction is certainty more expensive, it is better than employing twice as much land for the same amount of retail space. A cluster of such buildings could support elevated pedestrian walkways between them.
I've hated that Newgate parking lot in Centreville every time I've been there, you're absolutely right that crossing the cars entering and exiting is a nightmare.
The beginning of this video really stuck with me because here in Hagerstown MD there's a lot of parking and a golf course. Just a block away from an 8 story building is surface parking.
4:20 I'm from the DC area too and yep, I knew exactly what was coming when you said "its an interchange" Everything built before 2005-ish seems so haphazardly placed.
If you ever pick up doing shorts I think you could do a few of small build follow ups to these videos. That last chapter, narrated or not, mentioning the core idea on these long running videos as a hook to watch the longer thing. Bonus points if it's a different build, like one with a plaza or fountain in this case.
6:26 You hit the nail directly on the head with the #1 reason I can't stand shopping centers like that. We build them backwards, and in my experience the newer ones tend to be even worse than the older ones. There is no reason to have universal vehicle access at the storefront. No reason. Not climate, not accessibility for the disabled, nothing. Build a nice wide sidewalk that enables emergency vehicle access and maybe a loop or two for drop-offs. The main vehicle access should be on the far side.
Thanks for the lesson, never thought about parking lot design before. As for parking lots in CS1, the problem is they function as parks and attract tourists instead of functioning as a parking space... There are two ways to try to fix that (partially): 1. Use the "Parking no tourism" assets from the Workshop. 2. Subscribe to the TMPE mode and set "realistic parking" on My parking lots are nearly full now, but still many "Nature tourists" parked behind the hospital :)
Imagine my surprise to learn YUMBL is a local! I grew up in the Chantilly/Fairfax area. At 5:15 -- Yes, the Newgate Shopping Center is VERY old, dating back to the good ol' days when 29 & 28 intersected at a simple stoplight. The original Centreville Library branch was around back on a lower floor, and I think the original McKay Books location was there as well? So yeah, that shopping center was designed for a rural Centreville, not for what it's become today. Be kind to Newgate, it's an old-timer. 🤣 Also makes me sad to hear Fair Oaks Mall referred to at 15:25 as a "dying mall", although of course it's true. 🤣 Many good times had at that mall in the '80s! I was in kindergarten when it was built. Oh, the changes I've seen!
Back in the day when the Enclosed malls were at their prime, often the parking lots were to small, or everyone would park on one side of the mall and not the other, lived all over the country and have seen a mix of both issues with the enclosed malls.
I'd like to see that center in action. I don't understand how deliveries work. Also, while I'm glad people like public transit, I'm tired of people acting as if it's the key to utopia. When my wife takes the train to work it takes her an extra hour each way. And that's when things go smoothly. Two hours a day wasted waiting on shuttles and stopping at every other stop along the way. Nevermind the fact that she has to arrange her work schedule around the train schedule. A simple 5-minute delay at work can mean she has to wait another 30 minutes for the next train. As an introvert with a strong aversion to crowds, being in a tube of people is an absolutely hellish experience for me. The only thing I like about public transit is that it gets other people off the roads so I have more room.
My unpopular opinion, I actually like Big Parking Lots open air by the big ol’ Mall. They may be too car-centric forcing you to cross many cars. One thing that more modern Malls Development in the US lack is the wide-open air space. Those new malls look nice though.
Awesome video. I wish I could send you parking lots from my area to analyze. One in particular is one of the worst I have ever seen, and it's relatively newer.
The simple answer is they are that way because it is required for fire trucks, ambulances and emergency vehicles to get quick access to the entrance. The local AHJ’s and building codes require fire truck access with a ring road around establishments over a certain square foot.
When you're watching videos to get better at cities skylines and the RUclipsr literally calls out your exact post office and parking lot. He's right though, we end up going to a different one even though this is closer to us.
Mosaic has better stuff, more housing, and taller buildings, but I think Fairfax corner does the pedestrian friendly layout better. Mosaic has the worst four way stop right in the middle of it. To the SW of the Target parking garage.
Trader Joe's and horrible parking are two things that go hand in hand. It's a nationwide law (see Denver on Colorado Blvd and Omaha near 104th and Pacific).
One of the things I love about rural America is peace and quiet. Backyard space, parks. I doubt you will find an affordable apartment in the city, compare the price to a 2 bedroom house over 2,000 sqft in the rural area, assuming it’s a similar costs, I can see why people want to prefer living in the rural areas.
The romantic notion of "peace and quiet" can become problematic when you need civil services. If you had a medical emergency or other kind of emergency, it could take a while before the emergency services can reach your rural home. If they even have the capacity to come and assist you. Able to drive a car does grant one freedom, but if it's the only transportation option your area even offer. It also becomes a limitation. This is why I love about living in a city in Europe: It has good road and public transport infrastructure. The emergency services has a good response time ( < 15 minutes) and plenty of other civil services. Shops and schools within walkable or cycle distance. If the city has tourism (such as my home town Amsterdam), that usually implies the city has plenty of parks and other entertainment venues. Also, optic fiber highspeed Internet option. Whereas rural areas already glad they even have Internet.
Great video! The "I'm surrounded by parking lots" got me sad ahah. I live in Bracciano, Italy (specifically "Bracciano 2" if you search on Maps) next to two parks, great place to live
The thing that always amazes me is that Americans _know_ they drive their car to the lot and then _walk_ across the lot to the store. But do they put footpaths across the lots? I've never been a great fan of outdoor malls, me, but perhaps I spent too many years in Canada to see them as you do. About access from adjacent residential-are (real world) pedestrian bridges really so expensive that the crossings have to be at grade? There's plenty of space in one of these commercial developments to make gentle ramps-not to mention that businesses with an upper floor are not unheard of.
Nice plan. However I prefer underground parking or Just make a Topf in top of the parking EG to Install solar panels. Else IT would be a waste of space
I dislike the parking lot at 10:00 not just due to the road in front of the shoping center. But two of the back points go right into parking spots. There are enough morons that drive 50 mph in parking lots sadly. For 14:00 those minor roads could easily be sidewalks, where most drivers will avoid them. But if ambulance or firetruck needs to get there they can.
So at the Giant, you would use TMPE to restrict car traffic on the frontage road and leave everything else like emergency vehicles and deliveries and garbage? Because the car traffic can enter the parking lot? Neat! I've never seen that. Would that work in-game?
Any place with a few thousand per square mile population density is urban, not suburban. (Gatekeeping "suburban" definition for the sake of "engagement", haha!) Manassas, Centreville, and Fairfax are very much cities in their own rights, no longer just suburbs of DC. Clifton and (somehow) Gainesville would be the suburbs in that area.
Centreville is absolutely a suburb. Fairfax is a city, but is absolutely part of the DC metropolitan area. Manassas is a city that is not considered to be part of the DC metro area, though many commute to DC from Manassas. All generally lack a good mix of housing and commercial density, sprawling for miles with unwalkable commercial clusters stuck to main roads. These places may be considered cities, but suburbia still sprawls out around them. I live in suburbia.
I've only recently started playing Cities Skylines, and I have found your video to be especially valuable for helping me to learn how to use these mods. Not really related to the video, as such, but what mod gives you the text labels on the toolbar, rather than the little icons? I find the icons to be very difficult to differentiate from one another (on my old plasma TV, at least).
kansas city has great plains mall that is dead and its alot like fair oaks mall it has the ring road and too much parking in just a big circle next to a interstate i35 and a highway 169 been vacant for years
As a European, US map and roads just terrify me honestly. The amount of work it takes to go somewhere is just immense. Why it has to be so complecated.. Saddening
In CS ped areas have a service building on a real road that handles deliveries/trash. In reality places like this would allow morning deliveries by van to the front of the store.
@@YUMBL Yeah, real world, there'll be a service entrance at the back of the building, but as much as possible, deliveries are scheduled outside of business hours. Back in high school I worked stacking shelves at the local supermarket, and deliveries usually came in about eight or nine at night... not quite after-hours, but certainly after peak...
@@YUMBL Sorry, I missed that this was a ped area w/ service buildings. I don't like to contradict you but IRL most of the major malls I'm familiar w/ have docks for the major tenants and underground docks with service corridors to minor tenants. Here is part of the delivery instructions to MOA: 1. All deliveries to the Mall must go through the loading dock. Deliveries are not allowed through the public entrances to the Mall. These docks are under the building. I would love to tour this as it must be enormous.. Another mall in my area has docks at all major tenants and underground docks and service corridors for smaller tenants. I tried to attach a clip but that was blocked
8:00 My main issue with this parking lot is that the entrance is apparently like 20m from a highway off-ramp? Which just seems terrible for traffic; and how are pedestrians supposed to cross that giant stroad and get to this shopping center? It looks like there's crossing markings on that intersection, but again, 20m from a highway off-ramp on one side, and an on-ramp on the other, so crossing there seems kind of suicidal.
Something I never see people talking about is that these wide open car parks don't do anything to keep the sun, storms, hail, bird shit off your car. Multi level parking does.
What if suburban parking lots are bad aesthetically? And it's worth it to remove surface parking to improve the visuals of a town? A lot can be said on the subjectivity of beauty, but if there's anything that's (near-)universally hated aesthetically I think it might be parking lots
Yes, but to remove them without alternate ways to get to the businesses would kill the businesses. Surface parking vs parking garages is also a matter of cost. Parking garages are insanely expensive.
I live in Macau, next to HK. Our solution is .... we simply dont have land LOL, we dont have these kinds of parking lots. They are mostly underground or above ground (1st, 2nd, 3rd, some eve fifht floor (since 1 and 2 might be reserved for comercial)). So we have one access point for cars usually, and then we have elevators acesss. But, ofcourse, our buidings are usually ATLEAST 10 floors tall. But for malls, truly, parking should be underground. Look at europe... big malls usually have undeground garages. I know america has a shit ton of land.... but no... 15:35 that right there is an absolute blasphemy
Hi Yumbl, I really like your work especially that new little river project, really love that! I'm trying to build something based on that map, I downloaded a lot of DLC assets and mods but still I can't get it to look the same as yours. I'm having trouble with some public services it dosen't work properly exp elementary schools don't work it seems that the game when I start to build the city there is no nedd for uneducated workers. Can you help me understand why it doesn't work, do you have any idea? Thanks.
I love how you constantly try to calm yourself down and only five seconds later the intensity in your voice is back 😂 great video
As a Dutchman, an open-air shopping street is a great thing in good weather. But an enclosed shopping mall can be a good thing when the weather is less great.
Clustering shops attracts customers, and everyone benefits. And in newer shopping centres it's not uncommon to have parking in the basement, one or two floors of shops, then another three or four layers of housing on top of that.
*deep breath*
Take the orange pill. We've got stroopwafels.
Keep in mind, our little orange country is extremely densely populated. We call it a small country, others might call it a huge city. With land values, going underground and compact makes a LOT of sense in NL. The states are a different story altogether, especially in more rural areas. Also, the states is pretty much all cars, zero public transportation. In NL there's certainly 2 or 3 public transportation options to get to the mall. In the states pretty much everyone is gonne be coming by car.
Yeah, public transport is (mostly) very good, and people are used to it.
The only thing we don't have is affordable taxis, most are more like limo-service. These taxis sit around all day until they have a profitable trip, mostly to the airport. Only people with too much money and people who have no other option (often elderly) use them. Maybe with Uber these taxi mobsters will finally change...
But maybe because of that lack of that last step in door to door transport, trains, trams and buses have very good coverage.
You guys have good weather?
@@user-ib9pz6id5b It's The Netherlands, not England.
@@PleegWat Oh, I must have bad luck whenever in the netherlands
There is an intersection near where I live where one of the intersecting roads runs down the front of a large grocery store. Bonus: there is a slip lane to get onto that road as quickly as possible. Immediately upon entering that road is the main entrance to the store. The incident rate of people getting hit by cars at that spot is so high that there is often an ambulance parked in the lot during rush hour times, especially in the winter when it gets dark early.
It's just astonishing that design like that is allowed at all but I see it all the time around here.
The issue of forcing traffic along the store frontage - generating conflict between automotive and pedestrian traffic - seems to be very much a 2000s-2010s issue. (I've paused @7:35, so you this might coincide with later portions of this video.)
The dominant design of the 1950s-1960s was to quarter/bisect the parking area, with access perpendicular to and parking aisles parallel to the dominant store frontage. This seems to largely be descended from the perpendicular on-street parking of older downtown districts. Shopping centers of the era tended to be smaller affairs - more like pedestrian plazas with parking spaces than anything most people know about nowadays.
In the late 1970s to early 1990s, the 'ring and spoke' design philosophy seemed to dominate. Whether a small shopping plaza or a ginormous mega-mall, the key access trait was using perpendicular parking aisles to isolate store frontage from a parallel access roadway - one which bisected big-box retail strips or created a ring road to surround a mega-mall. This was further bisected by a secondary 'parking stroad', usually about one-third the distance between the store frontage and the primary access road. This design philosophy is responsible for the asphalt oceans so many RUclipsrs (others, not you) perpetually knot their panties over.
In the early 2000s, the design philosophy you rail about here (again, near the @7:36 point) came to dominate - concentrating automotive traffic along the store frontage and making the shopping experience immensely unpleasant from both an automotive and pedestrian perspective. There's a mantra from the software development ecosystem which was clearly not heeded here; "Never let programmers design and never allow designers to code."
Was visiting a local mall today... I think it ticks most of your boxes around parking, but the one catch is that although *close* to a major bus hub, that hub (over by the highway) is still about a half-mile walk across what's basically grassy wasteland. Not an unpleasant walk on a nice day like today, but it really would have been good if they'd found a way to integrate them better.
I've been watching you for over a year, but never engaged. Apologies for that, because I've learned more from you than any other creator I've followed. I'm happy you're back, and I feel your passion not just in CS, but also in our every day lives. Bottles up for a future where all forms of interaction are equally embraced, suburb, rural, and downtown alike.
our shops and malls are set up the same way (Detroit area) and I've NEVER driven across the front of any store... it's terrifying when the electronic doors open and someone's little brat come running out without paying attention. I always turn immediately and drive to the back lot and look for a spot to park. I leave the same way, too.
Watching your videos is always entertaining because I get local examples. Looked down and saw Lee Highway (near where I live), was really confused until i remembered whose channel i was watching.
This was great! I actually deal with some of these things in my real job. You nailed it with minimizing conflict points between pedestrians and vehicles and implementing transit options. Thanks for another great video!
I’ve seen that absolutely abysmal layout of having the main way in and out of a shopping center right in front of the shops and can absolutely agree that it is the absolute worst possible layout that creates infinitely more conflict points between vehicles and pedestrians than should have ever been allowed to happen. It’s a nuisance for the drivers trying to get in and out, a dangerous scenario for pedestrians, ruins the frontage of the shops with constant noise and pollution for patrons. Glad to see someone else who is extremely passionate about just how awful of urban planning it is
You can find example 1 happening frequently in every suburb outside of Minneapolis. It's so commonplace I never even realized it was an issue.
You know what?
I really liked this video. There is always a lot of talk about how great everything is in europe compared to US city planning, but as a european myself I have to admit there is still so much to do. Where I live and just as much where you live, over the pond. That last shopping area you showed on google maps seems to be a good step in the right direction, and once the metro reaches even better.
You did seem to miss the plaza and little lake in the build though ;D
I dig the design with the pedestrian only roads, though realistically speaking the shops - especially those towards the interior (or higher density areas) - would need more access roads for logistics. You wouldn't want large delivery trucks to offload their goods in the parking lot. Even just a couple small restricted access roads would be fine, but it definitely complicates the design a bit.
In CS it works with a ped area access point, but IRL vans would make morning deliveries to the storefronts on the ped street. Thats how areas like this function in other places.
So many flashbacks! As a NoVa kid in the 80s, I remember when Fair Oaks was THE mall for folks further out along 66. The stroads have always been mighty along that Manassas - Centreville - Fairfax route. Thanks for such an instructive video!
Shopping malls in the Philippines are parking lot simulators as well but they’re designed in a way that the main doors are placed directly perpendicular to the main road. That way, people who ride public transport and pedestrians can access the mall easily without having to walk 250 meters of asphalt park. Parking lots are placed on the right and the left side of the mall with underground parking. They oftentimes have public transport terminals as well.
The newer ones has green spaces inside, sometimes with a big courtyard or park feature at its center. Heck, the mall nearest to me has the river inside their mall. It encourages people to congregate at the center first and then go outward. It’s not park-grab-and-go like in the U.S. The malls in the Philippines are designed to force you to buy more stuff, go window shopping, sip some coffee, do bowling, get a massage or watch the cinema even though your only intention is to buy a few groceries. And they’re two to four levels with elevators and escalators with lots of glass and windows so that natural light comes in.
Problem with the U.S. style of malls and commercial centers is they discourage pedestrians to enter their vicinity. If you enter their area as a pedestrian, you’ll look like a poor person that can’t afford a car. Been in the U.S. twice visiting my aunt and I can say shopping was a terrible experience specially in the suburbs. The neighborhoods looks posh and beautiful but everyone and everything feels away from you, it’s lifeless and too quiet for me.
Holy sh!t YUMBL, I was born in Manassas in 1975, and I went to London Towne Elementary School in Centreville from 1980-1984. I moved to Dallas in 1984, so I haven't seen the area since the early 80's. What an ABSOLUTE trip down memory lane. THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I'd watch more of these.
You point out real world problems, explain why they're problematic and then offer solutions and show examples! Great job! Also checking out maps is real fun
I love this! Thanks for the excellent video. We just went on a cruise and had to park in a garage 4 to 5 blocks from the ship dock and drag out luggage. Not a single sidewalk to be seen. It would be nice if places like that would be pedestrian and car friendly in the way you just did.
Yumbl's back! It's been a while! I live not far from you up in NJ and have all the same sorts of stroads and parking lot issues you describe. When I lived in Rhode Island, there was a parking lot that was so badly designed you turned from the stroad to the left of a divider and drove down the left side of a divided street. Since I was new to the area, all my instincts were to keep to the right, so I did, and got beeped at and yelled at profusely by the locals. 😠
This is the best use/layout I've seen of the pedestrian roads. I think it's because of the holistic approach that considers where cars go and the central/ring nature of it. This looks like something that would actually exist.
There's something very surreal watching you zoom in where I live and analyze the shopping centers I frequent. That said, I agree newgate is a nightmare as both a driver and a pedestrian, and maybe one of these days they'll stop teasing and then axing plans to extend the orange line out.
Can you please upload a short or something where you just... let this little build run? Like a mini timelapse. I want to see the cars park and citizens interact with it. With TMPE settings enabled of course
As a Brit, whenever I watch a CS video and they talk about city planning, I think: "Our cities are planned??!!!"
Hoping your well deserved break from regular videos refilled your joy in playing and producing. Glad to see another video of yours, again you made me think "never thought about it like this"... Great you're back, thanks for some fresh inspiration
I really enjoyed that type of video with explanations and real life references. Very cool and informative!
I love these styles of essays by you. Thank you!
I had just checked your channel this morning looking, and hoping for an upload. Then you post one this afternoon 😄. Such an interesting topic and video. I like how you don't spin your wheels bashing American planning. Rather, you take an optimistic viewpoint and offer potential solutions to our deeply ingrained car dependent ways. While also highlighting good examples of American planning
"Fortresses of Commerce." I'm stealing that, wonderful
Glad to see you back making videos, missed ya!
I'm in the process of making a new city, so I'm going to incorporate these parking strategies and even try to mimic the good example you showed us. Cheers!
New subscriber here.. been 'lurking', watching many of your past videos and have learned a great deal.. good stuff! I'm onboard with you about 'certain' parking lot areas.. well said. As far as CS goes, I've become a big fan of the Big Parking Lot mod in addition to Parking Lot Roads.. both have their place.. I recall you covering it. A bit fussy, but when you get it.. it's great!
I love it! I have no ears because they've been talked off! 🤣 Really nice explanation and I like the fact that you found a way to incorporate a metro stop in the center of the shopping area. Don't know about other area's of the country, but here in Texas we call them a 'City Center'. Outstanding stuff!
Lol... I grew up in Chantilly and remember when nearly none of that stuff was there. I think the post office was the anchor in that shopping center, but otherwise it was all sketchy stripmall everywhere there. My mom sold a lot of the townhouses around that year in the 80s and 90s. Haven't been back there in more than a decade, so it's interesting to hear your commentary on how it has "evolved." :)
in defense of the overbuilt shopping malls, they really were that busy back in the day, ya' know? I miss the malls, but online shopping killed that fast. We have a dying mall out here that I'm surprised is still going. It's holding on to life with it's pinky finger.
Very interesting points and real life tie in. Your chalk to age is correct btw. In fact, where I live and have lived, NY/NJ/PA tri-state area, very often the population has boomed so exponentially over just even a decade or so (not to mention the 30-40 years since many of these plazas were built), that the initial designers could not have imagined this future bottleneck.
That being said of course, the original design was for sure flawed in that it allowed a potential future bottleneck. But, it's important to have context. Unexpected future != exclusively bad design. Hence why, budget for retrofitting is the real forward thinking winner. (The very thing we all do in skylines challenge runs as the pop grows )
This is also a microcosm of North American demographics, the US in particular, given most of the 330 million people live not only east of the Mississippi river, but further coalesced in these dense metropolitan areas like yours and mine.
Anyway, data share over, great skylines vid. Dig your content!
Great Video!
I've always designed these spaces in Cities Skylines with all the parking in the middle and the shops around the perimeter. Because thats what I SEE in the world for most shopping centers (besides malls). But this is sooo much better
Your frustration with that insanely idiotic parking lot design hits home! No idea behind the logic (if any) of these parking lot designs, but they are everywhere in American suburbs; as if living in a car-centric suburb isn't stressful enough...
When I lived in Madison, Wis, the Walmart on the west side of the city had ground floor parking with the store built over it, which I think is a brilliant solution to the issue of parking, because you not only fulfill two necessary purposes with the same piece of real estate, but the shopping experience was greatly improved, as anyone who has experienced a brutal midwestern winter can attest. Now, they also had a small amount of uncovered parking, no doubt to fulfill parking minimum requirements, which were probably only used on Black Friday. While such construction is certainty more expensive, it is better than employing twice as much land for the same amount of retail space. A cluster of such buildings could support elevated pedestrian walkways between them.
Fantastic video, love the way this is contextualised by your own home environment. More of this stuff please!
Great vid! One of if not the best use of the pedestrian road DLC I've seen. Fantastic idea.
I've hated that Newgate parking lot in Centreville every time I've been there, you're absolutely right that crossing the cars entering and exiting is a nightmare.
"Whole lot of freedom in this area" (points on google-map) cracks me up every time 🤣
YUMBLE, you should add the word "currently" to it.
Love the passion you have in your videos, always an inspiration on how to design our (virtual) cities!
Honestly, this design idea is really nice.
Its a compromise between transit, cars, and pedestrians that doesn't over-do either of those modes.
7:48 “it’s not funny, it’s serious” 😂
The beginning of this video really stuck with me because here in Hagerstown MD there's a lot of parking and a golf course. Just a block away from an 8 story building is surface parking.
4:20 I'm from the DC area too and yep, I knew exactly what was coming when you said "its an interchange" Everything built before 2005-ish seems so haphazardly placed.
If you ever pick up doing shorts I think you could do a few of small build follow ups to these videos. That last chapter, narrated or not, mentioning the core idea on these long running videos as a hook to watch the longer thing. Bonus points if it's a different build, like one with a plaza or fountain in this case.
6:26 You hit the nail directly on the head with the #1 reason I can't stand shopping centers like that. We build them backwards, and in my experience the newer ones tend to be even worse than the older ones. There is no reason to have universal vehicle access at the storefront. No reason. Not climate, not accessibility for the disabled, nothing.
Build a nice wide sidewalk that enables emergency vehicle access and maybe a loop or two for drop-offs. The main vehicle access should be on the far side.
Didn't you mean "Hey dude, where's my car?" 🤣
I wish town planners and developers had even half the insight and consideration you do. Great ideas all round.
I get so frustrated at the same thing! You calmed yourself down and 2 seconds later I'm yelling at my tv
Thanks for the lesson, never thought about parking lot design before.
As for parking lots in CS1, the problem is they function as parks and attract tourists instead of functioning as a parking space...
There are two ways to try to fix that (partially):
1. Use the "Parking no tourism" assets from the Workshop.
2. Subscribe to the TMPE mode and set "realistic parking" on
My parking lots are nearly full now, but still many "Nature tourists" parked behind the hospital :)
Makes me think of the new Stonebridge at Potomac Town Center in Woodbridge, VA. I think you might like that.
I really wish more government officials watched your videos… another great one!
Even as a driver, it sucks to drive on a strode where you need to slow down and turn right. Some of the cars even on the outer lane drives so fast.
Imagine my surprise to learn YUMBL is a local! I grew up in the Chantilly/Fairfax area. At 5:15 -- Yes, the Newgate Shopping Center is VERY old, dating back to the good ol' days when 29 & 28 intersected at a simple stoplight. The original Centreville Library branch was around back on a lower floor, and I think the original McKay Books location was there as well? So yeah, that shopping center was designed for a rural Centreville, not for what it's become today. Be kind to Newgate, it's an old-timer. 🤣
Also makes me sad to hear Fair Oaks Mall referred to at 15:25 as a "dying mall", although of course it's true. 🤣 Many good times had at that mall in the '80s! I was in kindergarten when it was built. Oh, the changes I've seen!
Back in the day when the Enclosed malls were at their prime, often the parking lots were to small, or everyone would park on one side of the mall and not the other, lived all over the country and have seen a mix of both issues with the enclosed malls.
I'd like to see that center in action. I don't understand how deliveries work.
Also, while I'm glad people like public transit, I'm tired of people acting as if it's the key to utopia. When my wife takes the train to work it takes her an extra hour each way. And that's when things go smoothly. Two hours a day wasted waiting on shuttles and stopping at every other stop along the way. Nevermind the fact that she has to arrange her work schedule around the train schedule. A simple 5-minute delay at work can mean she has to wait another 30 minutes for the next train. As an introvert with a strong aversion to crowds, being in a tube of people is an absolutely hellish experience for me. The only thing I like about public transit is that it gets other people off the roads so I have more room.
My unpopular opinion, I actually like Big Parking Lots open air by the big ol’ Mall. They may be too car-centric forcing you to cross many cars. One thing that more modern Malls Development in the US lack is the wide-open air space. Those new malls look nice though.
Cities skyline has givin me a appreciation for a good parking lot.
ahh what great timing. I've encountered this vid on my recommended feed just as I'm about to start a new city build.
My favorite Parking Lot Simulator streamer is back let's gooooooo
Awesome video. I wish I could send you parking lots from my area to analyze. One in particular is one of the worst I have ever seen, and it's relatively newer.
The simple answer is they are that way because it is required for fire trucks, ambulances and emergency vehicles to get quick access to the entrance. The local AHJ’s and building codes require fire truck access with a ring road around establishments over a certain square foot.
That entrance should not be the ONLY entrance though.
When you're watching videos to get better at cities skylines and the RUclipsr literally calls out your exact post office and parking lot. He's right though, we end up going to a different one even though this is closer to us.
Bro, as a fellow NOVA resident, you should mention the Mosaic district. Maybe even highlight the CS pedestrian area-esque vibe to it as well.
Mosaic has better stuff, more housing, and taller buildings, but I think Fairfax corner does the pedestrian friendly layout better. Mosaic has the worst four way stop right in the middle of it. To the SW of the Target parking garage.
Trader Joe's and horrible parking are two things that go hand in hand. It's a nationwide law (see Denver on Colorado Blvd and Omaha near 104th and Pacific).
#yumbl my favorite city builder streamer! I love your videos keep up the very satisfying work! ❤️
One of the things I love about rural America is peace and quiet. Backyard space, parks.
I doubt you will find an affordable apartment in the city, compare the price to a 2 bedroom house over 2,000 sqft in the rural area, assuming it’s a similar costs, I can see why people want to prefer living in the rural areas.
I grew up in rural America :)
The romantic notion of "peace and quiet" can become problematic when you need civil services. If you had a medical emergency or other kind of emergency, it could take a while before the emergency services can reach your rural home. If they even have the capacity to come and assist you.
Able to drive a car does grant one freedom, but if it's the only transportation option your area even offer. It also becomes a limitation.
This is why I love about living in a city in Europe: It has good road and public transport infrastructure. The emergency services has a good response time ( < 15 minutes) and plenty of other civil services. Shops and schools within walkable or cycle distance. If the city has tourism (such as my home town Amsterdam), that usually implies the city has plenty of parks and other entertainment venues. Also, optic fiber highspeed Internet option. Whereas rural areas already glad they even have Internet.
This kind of content I expect to see in NotJustBikes YT channel.
No, he would want to largely eliminate surface parking.
Missed you Yumbl!
everyone quiet I'm watching YUMBL
Great video! The "I'm surrounded by parking lots" got me sad ahah. I live in Bracciano, Italy (specifically "Bracciano 2" if you search on Maps) next to two parks, great place to live
You’re not too far from me I live in Fredericksburg. Great little town with great history might be a fun build to do one day 😉 😉
The thing that always amazes me is that Americans _know_ they drive their car to the lot and then _walk_ across the lot to the store. But do they put footpaths across the lots?
I've never been a great fan of outdoor malls, me, but perhaps I spent too many years in Canada to see them as you do.
About access from adjacent residential-are (real world) pedestrian bridges really so expensive that the crossings have to be at grade? There's plenty of space in one of these commercial developments to make gentle ramps-not to mention that businesses with an upper floor are not unheard of.
I love this build 🎉
Nice plan. However I prefer underground parking or Just make a Topf in top of the parking EG to Install solar panels. Else IT would be a waste of space
please also include bus, tram and some shuttle service to transfer people over from nearby hubs
I would include more connections in a real city. This save is just a shopping island with a metro station.
Interesting video. I never put that much thought into doing this like what you laid out... 🤔
4:18 The Emerson??? Wait a minute, I'm Emerson!
I dislike the parking lot at 10:00 not just due to the road in front of the shoping center. But two of the back points go right into parking spots. There are enough morons that drive 50 mph in parking lots sadly.
For 14:00 those minor roads could easily be sidewalks, where most drivers will avoid them. But if ambulance or firetruck needs to get there they can.
I feel like a total nerd watching your videous, but i liove it :) keep up with the great work :)!!!
So at the Giant, you would use TMPE to restrict car traffic on the frontage road and leave everything else like emergency vehicles and deliveries and garbage? Because the car traffic can enter the parking lot? Neat! I've never seen that. Would that work in-game?
Any place with a few thousand per square mile population density is urban, not suburban. (Gatekeeping "suburban" definition for the sake of "engagement", haha!) Manassas, Centreville, and Fairfax are very much cities in their own rights, no longer just suburbs of DC.
Clifton and (somehow) Gainesville would be the suburbs in that area.
Centreville is absolutely a suburb. Fairfax is a city, but is absolutely part of the DC metropolitan area. Manassas is a city that is not considered to be part of the DC metro area, though many commute to DC from Manassas. All generally lack a good mix of housing and commercial density, sprawling for miles with unwalkable commercial clusters stuck to main roads. These places may be considered cities, but suburbia still sprawls out around them. I live in suburbia.
I am glad you came back. 🙂
I've only recently started playing Cities Skylines, and I have found your video to be especially valuable for helping me to learn how to use these mods. Not really related to the video, as such, but what mod gives you the text labels on the toolbar, rather than the little icons? I find the icons to be very difficult to differentiate from one another (on my old plasma TV, at least).
Thanks! It could be “find it” but imm not sure
kansas city has great plains mall that is dead and its alot like fair oaks mall it has the ring road and too much parking in just a big circle next to a interstate i35 and a highway 169 been vacant for years
As a European, US map and roads just terrify me honestly. The amount of work it takes to go somewhere is just immense. Why it has to be so complecated.. Saddening
How do trucks service these buildings? Most are serviced from the back but there are no roads to allow them to do that.
In CS ped areas have a service building on a real road that handles deliveries/trash. In reality places like this would allow morning deliveries by van to the front of the store.
@@YUMBL Yeah, real world, there'll be a service entrance at the back of the building, but as much as possible, deliveries are scheduled outside of business hours. Back in high school I worked stacking shelves at the local supermarket, and deliveries usually came in about eight or nine at night... not quite after-hours, but certainly after peak...
@@YUMBL Sorry, I missed that this was a ped area w/ service buildings. I don't like to contradict you but IRL most of the major malls I'm familiar w/ have docks for the major tenants and underground docks with service corridors to minor tenants. Here is part of the delivery instructions to MOA: 1. All deliveries to the Mall must go through the loading dock. Deliveries are not allowed through the public entrances to the Mall. These docks are under the building. I would love to tour this as it must be enormous.. Another mall in my area has docks at all major tenants and underground docks and service corridors for smaller tenants. I tried to attach a clip but that was blocked
What I’m describing is less like a mall and more like a city street. There may not be a “behind” of the business to reach.
I really like the shopping area.
8:00 My main issue with this parking lot is that the entrance is apparently like 20m from a highway off-ramp? Which just seems terrible for traffic; and how are pedestrians supposed to cross that giant stroad and get to this shopping center? It looks like there's crossing markings on that intersection, but again, 20m from a highway off-ramp on one side, and an on-ramp on the other, so crossing there seems kind of suicidal.
Yeah, I noticed that too... it looks like it'd be really awkward to get into unless you're coming off that highway...
I suspect the shopping center is older than the interchange.
Something I never see people talking about is that these wide open car parks don't do anything to keep the sun, storms, hail, bird shit off your car. Multi level parking does.
At an insane cost, yes.
@@YUMBL true.
What if suburban parking lots are bad aesthetically? And it's worth it to remove surface parking to improve the visuals of a town? A lot can be said on the subjectivity of beauty, but if there's anything that's (near-)universally hated aesthetically I think it might be parking lots
Yes, but to remove them without alternate ways to get to the businesses would kill the businesses. Surface parking vs parking garages is also a matter of cost. Parking garages are insanely expensive.
Top notch Yumblage as always :)
Love this video, great advise!
Example 1 seems pretty common. Happens with grocery stores. I'm not a fan.
1980's Houston, Tx would like to have a word with you.
I live in Macau, next to HK. Our solution is .... we simply dont have land LOL, we dont have these kinds of parking lots. They are mostly underground or above ground (1st, 2nd, 3rd, some eve fifht floor (since 1 and 2 might be reserved for comercial)). So we have one access point for cars usually, and then we have elevators acesss. But, ofcourse, our buidings are usually ATLEAST 10 floors tall. But for malls, truly, parking should be underground. Look at europe... big malls usually have undeground garages. I know america has a shit ton of land.... but no... 15:35 that right there is an absolute blasphemy
Hi Yumbl, I really like your work especially that new little river project, really love that! I'm trying to build something based on that map, I downloaded a lot of DLC assets and mods but still I can't
get it to look the same as yours. I'm having trouble with some public services it dosen't work properly exp elementary schools don't work it seems that the game when I start to build the city there is no nedd for uneducated workers. Can you help me understand why it doesn't work, do you have any idea? Thanks.
Your therapist must be so confused about your anger issues