Improved Cartridges? ~ Exposing the fake news and misrepresentations!
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- You may have read about or heard of "Improved" cartridges, or perhaps you are interested in buying one or even having your own rifle re-chambered. Long the perennial fair child of gun column writers who convince shooting enthusiasts to "breath new life" into their rifles with a so-called inexpensive, simple chamber modification. But, there is another very ugly side of the story that is far from an improvement at all. Watch and learn why the realities of chamber "improvements" are wildly exaggerated, often zero ballistic gains, high costs at every turn, misrepresented claims of interchangeability, and bitter disappointments. Learn why "Improved" cartridges have dramatically dropped in popularity over the last 30 years, and why you should avoid falling victim to fake news that so many have discovered too late. Don't re-chamber or buy one until you watch this!
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I did not realize Benny had surgery as a result of cancer seems he and I have something in common. Prayers out to you and Benny Sir.
How are you doing now sir?
I've worked quite a bit with Ackley Improved chambers, as well as developed 4 wildcat cartridges. While a boost in velocity is useful in some hunting situations, I've found extended brass life to be the best improvement of all. A couple great examples of this, is the 257 Robert's or the 25-06. When you blow out the case taper, as well as sharpen the shoulder to 30° or more, case stretch virtually stops or is reduced to a very minimal amount. With brass prices constantly on the rise, case life becomes very critical. When you sit down and uniform 200 pieces of brass, which takes a fair bit of work and time, as well as money, you really want brass life extended, as to get as many firings out of each piece of brass as possible. Brass life also comes into play with situations where brass availability is difficult. If we take the 6mm Remington, of which I own two, for example, Remington may only make one run of brass per year. I've found when companies only make one run of a certain cartridge per year, they also boost the price substantially. All of these factors combined, make improving certain chambers a very viable decision.
This is good advice, and is probably applicable to choosing unusual chamberings in general.
Reminds me of the time I almost bought a rifle in 308 Norma Mag ... I snapped out of it before writing the check. Decided I didn't need a magnum and bought a 30-06 ... if I did need a magnum the 300wm makes a lot more sense.
For nearly every oddball cartridge, there's a commonly available cartridge that does the same job with less hassle.
Dear GunBlue490. I check daily for new uploads. Keep them coming. They are all most gratefully received and enjoyed, and well done Benny.
Thanks for telling it like it is! “Physics is physics, and you can’t change the laws of physics.”
THANBK YOU for sharing your knowledge on this subject. I appreciate you taking the time to explain in depth these subjects. I'm 74 years young, been reloadinig since I was 18 and yes, you can teach an old dog new tricks! I find that being subscribed to your channel and watching your videos is a great help and provides a whole lot of knowledge on quite a large gamit of subjects. Thank you again and do keep up the great service that you are providing. And yes, I too, am VERY thankful that Benny is doing well. I, just a short time ago, lost a very dear companion K'9 female to that damned cancer so I know first hand what losing someone so dear can be like. Thank the Lord you were spared that tragedy. May Benny have many more seasons to share with you!!!
Dont believe everthing he tells you he often waffles on with crap in this case he fails to mention that improving the chamber ackleys goal wasnt just a increase in velocity the 40 degree shoulders stops the case neck from increasing in length so there is no need to trim cases therefore increasing case life gunblue is often full of shit he pretends to be a know it all i have been a gunsmith in australia for 40 years and i can tell you he makes a lot of mistakes
This was a very nuanced and balanced presentation. As usual, you provide information without emotion. If I’m trying to decide between one course of a cation and another, (and I am, building a .338-06 or a .338-06AI) I always look to see if you have any posts which might shed some light on the alternatives and help me decide. As usual, you are spot on and your take on the subject greatly appreciated.
Damn man! From your last video I watched I thought Benny bit it! I was tearing up and shit all afraid my wife was gonna walk in the room and tell me I need therapy! But I'm glad he's doing good that's really good news.
He was my sidekick in the last couple of videos that you might enjoy. Benny had quite a miraculous turn that I pray is a long one.
With all due respect, an important aspect with the AI's that wasn't addressed here is case stretching during firing and stability during reloading (Velocity wasn't P.O.'s only intention with many of his cartridges.) There is data out there which encouraged me to "AI" my 260 Rem.- The more abrupt 40 deg. AI shouldered case distorts substantially less than the 25-30 deg. standard shouldered cases. Furthermore, the wider body-shoulder junction also offers more room to seat a longer, higher BC bullet to fit standard magazines and chambers due to carrying standard powder loads lower into the case body. However, if you do not reload, the AI is indeed a waste of time.
Those are valid considerations, but for the same handloader, case stretch is virtually eliminated by neck sizing, especially with a Lee Collet die. As an example, the 22-250 with its very sloped body is a notorious stretcher. My neck sized 22-250 cases are now on their 8th load, and still require no trimming, though they have been annealed twice. Case body taper is an intentional design factor that prevents tight extraction or even seized cases. My presentation is intended to examine the realities of such a rather extreme modification, so that a balanced and objective decision can be made apart from the typical one-sided, enthusiastic hype that not infrequently lures someone to do something that he or she later regrets. The achievement of 75 to 150 feet per second additional velocity in typical AI conversions often leaves the user wondering what the point of the cost and trouble was. Most testing labs come up with 100, on average. I want folks to know that before making such a decision. You know, I'm sure, that each 100 fps. yields only 22 yards of ballistic advantage (on paper), and that's within the typical velocity variation found in a box of factory ammo. In the real world of target shooting and hunting, even 200 feet per second is pretty hard to account for, and is easily managed with a couple of clicks of sight compensation. But, if it gives you the advantage you dreamt of, I highly recommend it.
I see The LORD let you have Benny for a little longer, here on earth. Our God is a Gracious God! Christ Bless, GunBlue490.Thank You for sharing your knowledge with Guns and shooting.
Hawk.
hawknives -thank you for stating this!
I too feel the same way about our Lord and Savior as with faith...all things are possible! God Bless👍
Thank you for this and all of your videos! Wishing the absolute best for you and Benny! May our Lord & Savior continue To bless you, Sir.
(“Be still and know that I am God”)
-(Psalm 46:10)
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Thanks for the information provided.
This allows me more avenues to research- ✌️
Major Payne
Christ Bless You, Family and Friends, Major Payne! I'm glad you are here! Have an Awesome Day, my Friend!
Hawk
hawknives -thank you very much sir. (Respect)
Major Payne
You are Welcome, Sir!
Hawk.
I'm glad to see Benny is doing well now, I'll keep ya'll in my thoughts and prayers.
Given that the "improved" caliber ammo is going to be pretty much a handloading situation, I believe that if I needed to "improve" a rifle for additional power, speed, or whatever, I'd just buy another rifle. Yeah, before I worried about a 30-06 Improved, I'd pick up a used 300WinMag and spend the rest of my money on a really good scope.
There are so many calibers that are commonly available that will do whatever the average hunter could possibly ask. If I were picking a brush gun and a gun for open areas of up to 400 yds, I'd go with a 30-30 and a scoped 270Win. If I were handloading, the long gun caliber might be smaller than the 270Win but for production selection, a 270Win is hard to beat.
Great video!
Glad to see Benny is doing well, God Bless!
The 280AI has its feet firmly planted in the shooting industry. Rifle and ammunition manufacturers have embraced it for a reason, it performs. As to your 6mm Remington reference, if Remington would’ve seen fit to introduce the 6mm with the correct rifling twist from the get go the 243 Winchester would probably be the round on deaths doorstep
Very interesting topic, I really enjoy your sharing of knowledge about the history of PO Ackley I find it fascinating. Although it’s not always about velocity, I like the increased shoulder angle for the 243 and 280AI the bump in velocity is a bonus
Thank goodness and thanks God for healing Benny. You’re such a. Pleasure sir to watch and would hate to see you be struck with loss. I pray all continues well for your entire family.
As a professional machinist, my first boss (an old diemaker who attended the Henry Ford Trade School) used to often tell me "don't set a trap for the next guy." With that philosophy in mind, I can see one good thing about "improved" cartridges: You can soup them up to your heart's content in a strong rifle, and your grandson is never going to fire one of your hot rounds with that blown-out case in a weaker rifle with the standard factory chamber. Actually any maximum load in one rifle could potentially be excessive in another rifle chambered for the same cartridge, just because of minor differences in the neck or throat area, so the gun blown up need not be all that weak. And handloaders will push limits.
60 or so years ago, Ackley himself told us that the only AI cartridges that were worth it are the: .257 AI, 7 X 57 AI, 30/30/AI, and the .280 AI. Iv'e got both of his reloading manuals and they are very interesting.
>300 Weatherby is a very good improvement over the .300 H&H.
Check out 6.5 x 55 BJAI (Bob Jourdan AI). Competitive shooters AIed 6.5x55 quite a bit before 6.5-284
The 280 AI is certainly the best of his improvements thanks in large part to the better bullets we have today.
Interesting. I've heard good things about the .348 AI, though.
The 250-3000 is also one that sees improvements.
It is nice to see Benny doing well, and God has granted him more time with his humans. We lost our 15 1/2 year old poodle September, 22, it has been tough.
I can’t keep up with these 50 new cartridges a day. Probably less than a dozen useable long gun cartridges out there. The rest are just gimmicks.
I am so happy that Benny is doing well. God bless you, the Mrs. and Benny.
Thank you, and to you and yours.
Mr Blue- what are your thoughts on the 22 Hornet K?
Do you think the same cons exist as you explained for the AI?
I am searching for a Winchester M70 in 22Hornet and have run across a couple of 22K Hornets and have read about them and how it’s more than just reaming the chamber as you also have to set the barrel back. I’m no gunsmith so I rely on experts like you for advice. Is it worth the K mod and how can you tell about the barrel set back?
I wish you and Benny the best!
I have a 135lb rescue King German Shepard "Ax" he has undergone a 6 1/2 hour surgery at the Auburn University veterinary school to remove a large mass from his Thoracic cavity and further delicate surgery for removal of nerve sheath tumors on radial nerve with close proximity to cranial area. Unfortunately after another MRI cancer returned 2 months later, we proceeded with Palliative Radiation outcome is inevitable. Cancer in dogs is more aggressive than humans. My advice to you is listen to Benny's orthopaedic surgeon and take with a grain of salt with whatever advice the oncologists have to recommend as they just tend to treat the tumours and and forget about the dog. That said I find your conversations very interesting and informative, my dad started off as a baby engineer at Westinghouse in Worcester Mass back in the 60s, your accent reminds me of his old boss as well a Master Chief that kicked my assets from one end of Little Creek to another to make me a better platoon commander earlier on.
I'm a S&W 357 3" junkie 65, pre 27, PC 13 would appreciate more revolver centric information in the future.
THANK YOU for your service. All the best to you and Benny.
Thanks for the advice, and I'll offer a prayer for your Ax. God bless.
How do you feel about 280 Ackley though considering it is now factory supported with factory ammo, and factory rifles being chambered for it. It seems as if now it has more support in the current market than standard 280 rem does.
Current Nosler reloading data has 280 Ackley fastest velocity with 140 @3222 fps with 4831. This max load of 60 grains is also the most accurate load of 4831 and listed as the most accurate powder tested.
My factory chambered 280 Ackley rifle with 24" barrel gives a chronoed 3215 fps with 150 grain LRAB over my duplex handloads in Norma 280 Ackley brass. Have reloaded the same cases 7 times and no stretching or pressure signs observable
Shoots 1/2 MOA for 4 shots and the performance is virtually the same as my Rem 700 in 7mm Rem mag
Benny's Lives !!! Awesome, I'm sure glad I watched this video this morning. A few weeks ago I shared Benny's condition with my wife and we both prayed for you and Benny. We thought he was at The Rainbow Bridge. This news Made our Day !! 😇
He's still doing wonderfully and is enjoying the hunting season more than ever. I think Benny knows he's a survivor, and is kicking his heels up every day. Thank you and your wife for your prayers.
I have a 7mm-08 and love it for deer hunting. Now Weatherby, Nosler and some others are chambering 280AI rifles and producing 280 AI ammo commerically. I am thinking about an Elk hunt in the near future. I would never take a shot past 300 yards. Is the 7mm-08 sufficient or would the new Saami 280 AI rifle and commercial ammo a better option?
Ha, i have the exact same dilema! I just bought a 280 ai in a savage ultralight. Not because i think i need it, i dont. Just because i wanted something to mess around with as a hobby. Loading and making my own ammo. 7mm-08 is more than adequate out to 400 yds.. as in the terminal performance of most commercially available ammo is greater than 1800fps and 1200 ft-lbs of energy beyond 400 yds with the 7mm-08. It would be a great elk gun!! Just practice out to 300 and you’ll be fine!! The 280ai gets you another 300 yds, not that i would actually shot over 300, maybe 400.
The .280 Remington is a fascinating cartridge that never got the respect it deserved. The good news is that the .280 AI is giving the .280 Remington a new life. I own a 7 Rem Mag, so I dont see that much benefit from a 280 AI, perhaps a little less recoil.
1) Hooray For Benny! 2) looks like a Manhattan, my favorite too. Bourbon? What brand of whiskey do you prefer please? 3) I once read in "Handloader" magazine that the .300 Savage was the most efficient cartridge when comparing grains of powder to achieved velocity. I love that cartridge, I guess I am just old school. 4), Yes, everyone forgets barrell length in velocity considerations. The "new" trend is short and light. Simply compare 5.56x45mm ballistics for example. Huge difference. 5) Thank you again sir!
Benny sends regards. Yes, bourbon Manhattan made with Evan Williams, Noily Prat sweet vermouth, three or four dashes of Angostura bitters, cherries, staight up. Poor man's Makers Mark. The 300 Savage is one of the finest shooting rounds ever created, and an ideal whitetail round that's better suited at closer ranges than the 308, which can be too destructive inside 75 yards. My 300 Savage Model 99 was a reliable 1/2 MOA rifle with 150 or 165 grain Sierra flat base bullets. Velocity at 2,600 fps is perfect, and recoil is soft. Fun cartridge.
Uncle GunBlue - you mention in your comment that your 300 Savage Model 99 "was".... Do you not have it anymore?
Haha! I use Evan Williams too! BTW, if Benny ever requires some $$$ medical procedure funding, I would be glad to contribute. I have given a bunch of money in general appreciation of my stage III cancer survival the past three years...for both dogs and people. I like dogs more than most people anyway. Geting cantankerous (less tolerant) in my old age!
Edward Godic n
Another awesome video, thank you professor! I shoot 6.5x55 Swede and was thinking maybe it might be cool to have it improved. I enjoy experimenting and having unique things, especially if there are performance enhancements associated with them. After watching this video I think I will keep my Swede standard factory for now. If I need something to reach out farther on elk or moose I think I would be a lot better stepping up to a bigger cartridge. And living in Michigan now, the odds are I won't ever have a need for anything more than what my Swede brings to the party. Thanks for the knowledge dump, I will probably watch this video 3 or 4 times like I do most of your videos. God bless you, your family and, of course, Benny!
Recently had a 338-06 improved built and it has had no improvement over a standard 338-06. All it did was give me a conversation piece, expensive set of dies, and the extra step of fire forming new brass.
So sorry. That's pretty typical.
Gunblue490. I am ready to re-chamber my third .22 Hornet to .22 K- Hornet (CZ 527). I have no reason to do this except that I love to have fun loading this cartridge and seeing what I can do with it regarding accuracy and velocity. I own a Steyr .222 Mag., so I don't need the speed increase over the original Hornet cartridge for varmint hunting. It's just fun! I shoot light 35-45 gr. bullets in the K Hornet, and I am looking to buy my own chamber reamer. What reamer would you recommend as far as freebore dimentions are concerned?
I'm afraid my ignorance is showing, but since I shoot normal or light for caliber bullets, should I stick to a .020 freebore reamer, or should I go shorter? My two previous rifles both shot less than 1 in., but I'd like to get my groups to much less than 1 moa. Do I need to be able to set my bullets deeper in the neck to facilitate better alignment for accuracy's sake? Maybe a .010 freebore reamer? What do you think?
Once again, an excellent VDO. Comparisons are factual and are bullseyes, (pun intended).
I have a great friend that inherited dies for a .243 Ackley. Initially, I encouraged seeking a used rifled chambered in .243 AI. He too is a hand loader.
After viewing this VDO in its entirety, I cautioned against it.
Regarding an inexpensive find - The most poignant element on a find is - you pointing out the detriments of a gas cut(s). Subsequently, paying for a borescope, buying a borescope, or having a barrel reamed now make it whimsical rather than prudent endeavor to pursue.
You pointing out the fact that with the advent of affordable chronographs, the results were found to be paltry in comparison to the fairy tale results before chronos were widely available. And, some fairy tale results after they were widely available .
Again, gratitude and God Bless.
I’m surprised when I read on a forum about someone who wants to build their dream rifle, but then they’re undecided between 6 or 7 cartridges with very little overlap, very different purposes (e.g. 220 swift to 338 Edge). Then, they fail to mention how they plan to use the rifle. Invariably, most of the chamberings they’re considering are Ackley Improved. When more experienced forum members ask the original poster the main role of the rifle, either they can’t explain or they mention every conceivable use. The same people want an AI chamber more for status or bragging rights than perceived performance gains or purpose.
Even P.O. Ackley himself wrote some of the AI versions offered no discernible gains. One, the 6.5-06 AI if I recall correctly, actually showed slightly less performance for several loads he tested. Some showed better performance (like the 257 Roberts example you mentioned). Others, specifically the 35 Whelen, benefit (or are perceived to benefit) from an unintended consequence, like the sharp shoulder offering more consistent and reliable headspacing. Either way, prospective buyers should know why they want it and how that might (or might not) help them accomplish the task for that rifle.
Thanks for the video.
GB, what's your take on P.O.'s tests indicating reduced bolt backthrust with improved case design?
Glad to hear that Benny is doing well. Benny is part of your family.
Benny, I own both the 280 ackley and a 7mm Remington magnum. I can push a 168 grain Berger to 3000 FPS with either gun. My load is 70 grains of r25 in the 7mm and 55 grains of r17 in the 280 ackley. I love your videos but have to disagree with you on your comment about not being able to get similar velocities with less powder.
I am building a 280AI because I can get close to 7rem mag and on the start up loads it's a 7mm/08. At the time of his video 3 years ago many things have changed.
GunBlue490, you have spoiled me to the point when I listen to others selling their gun BS, I have to change the channel. God Bless and be safe! Thank you for being a wise old man who shares willingly:)
Praying 🙏 for Benny. Keep getting better. Good boy!
praying for a dog along starving and sex slaves children. Seems stupid dont you think.
As someone wrote, this is what internet and youtube should be. Thank you for the outstanding presentation. God Bless
Hi Sir! So heartwarming to see that Benny is still doing great!! God bless him and you!
As always a great video, interesting and a pleasure to watch! What is your opinion about moly coated bullets??
Always enjoyable listening to someone who knows what he's talking about! If I could make a topic suggestion could you do a video on the disassembly and reassembly of the earlier versions of the Ruger 22 caliber automatic pistol? Everybody always seems to struggle with that hence the latest version with the push button takedown ,including me and i'm a retired Mercedes Benz mechanic, special tricks that you're aware of would be appreciated. Glad to hear Benny is doing well,God Bless.
I can do one on the Mark II sometime, which is the same as the Mark I and nearly like the Mark III.
@@GunBlue490 If you make that video I'd be interested in you talking about the aftermarket hammer strut accessories I see for sale in the back of American Rifleman magazines. I always wondered if they were worth getting. I have a MKII and a MKIV. When I shoot and clean my MKII regularly I don't have any trouble remembering how to reassemble it. It's just when I haven't shot it for sometime that I end up scratching my head and sometimes having to break out the owner's manual to remember how it goes back together. I think my MKII locks up tighter than my MKIV though and might be a little more accurate, although my MKIV Hunter is really sweet too.
GuneBlue, when you use a chronograph, how far do you put your muzzle from it to get the best reading? What do the reloading books use for their distance? Also when using muzzloaders/shotgun(Sabot slugs) and a chrono, how far would you put chrono from muzzle, when your using sabot. Wouldnt the sabot or patch, mess with the reading? I just ordered a chrono for future data testing.
It's all about return on investment, isn't it? You are keeping our feet on the ground, GunBlue!
Thank You once again, GB. I came along in the day using some match developed by Bob Hutton of Hutton Rifle Ranch...found alot of usefulness w/the Powell slide computer. Having never bought into the idea of the Ackley chamberings, I concluded that one of two things were behind the math- that PO was attempting to alter shoulder angles to make the burning rates of various powders more efficient, as well as less case stretching... In either case, the evidence didn't sway me enough to jump on the PO wagon. Spending countless hours working to prove discussions in favor of the 220 Swift, I spent years proving the Swift over the 22-250, and efficiency arguments using a 22-243, as we saw later when J.Carmichael intro'd his 22 CHeetah. I do seem to recall that for a given IMR powder load, the ratios of 5-5-10 rule comes to mind ....
Question. Which do you feel is a most efficient cartridge. 280AI or 7 Rem Mag
In terms of velocity per grain of powder burned, smaller cases are almost always more efficient, because increases in velocity require disproportionately more powder. Regardless, the 7mm Magnum still has the potential for higher velocities due to its greater volume. Neither are efficient, per se.
In other words, you will get close to Ack. Imp. gains with none of it's drawbacks by using Hornady's Superformance loads. A much more palatable option as long as your rifle can shoot them accurately. That Superformance load with SST bullets shoots better than I can in my old Sako in 7mm08. Its actually the most accurate factory load I've ever tested out of about 9 loads. BTW, I recently quickly worked up a load using the old style 160 grain Speer Grand Slam bullet that shot under an inch easily and bagged a nice 500 lb cow moose at about 40 yards. So I guess I didn't need that level of accuracy in the end. The performance wasn't as good as I expected on a broadside shot, but it smashed a rib going in, hit one lung, destroyed the liver and was found on the off side in another broken rib. Only thing missing was a blood trail so it took about 20 minutes to find. The tenderloins sure are good! Heading out for partridge today with my 7 year old Griffon and will be thinking of Benny the whole time. I know Tucker will be having a ball no matter what we bag.
I am wanting to put together a target rifle, from parts, and am thinking a 26inch barrel. Been trying to decide between 25-06 and 25-06AI. I dont care about resale, as I will keep it till the barrel is smooth inside. I am wanting to shoot heavy for caliber slugs with a high bc (this will be for paper and steel, no hunting with this rig). Anyone have any advice?
A word like "improved" is pretty subjective in nature.
Personally I bought a 280ai. I wanted a 7 rem mag but sadly being a lefty I am extremely limited on choice. Whether it be the choice of caliber or choice of rifle. Usually the both don't line up for me being a gun I like in a caliber I want. I'm happy I stuck it out and got a 280ai. My other choices were 308 or 300 win mag in guns I actually wanted to own.
I'm Southern born and still live here in Carolina,,& i luv to hear u say the word "Caaaaaartridge",, it makes me laugh every time u say it..,, i realy like your video's,, thanx for all the great information...are u from New England, Maine, or Illinois, or Boston....???
Thanks. You flunked geography though. Illinois is in the Midwest. New England is the Northeast region of the U.S. that is comprised of six states: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island. Boston is not a state. It is the capital city of Massachusetts. New England folks have many different regional dialects, including no less than three from Boston alone. New Englanders don't all speak the same any more than folks do in the South, or even in the Carolinas. I had the pleasure of serving with men in the Army from the entire country, who all spoke with different accents. If you wanted to have friends, you didn't laugh at anyone's accent. Y'all.
@@GunBlue490 i still liked your video, i ment it in fun only, sorry u took it so seriously,, it was an attempt to make a friend,, some things are to supposed to be taken with a grain of salt,, all southerners tease people about accents even though ours is atrocious,, & yes we say yall, & yes i have a funny accent too...,, i meant it only in fun,, u truly are a master of firearm normenclature, & u have my respect, your video's are top notch,, i hope i didn't offend you, thank you again..
I'm glad to see Benny doing good...it made my day....What are your drinking a Manhattan....
real good to hear Benny next to you.
Ive got a few Winchester 71 rifles in 348 win. One of them i had reamed to 348 Ackley Improved. Allegedly it allows less bolt thrust but it does also boost the velocity some. It makes my old 71 kinda of a 35 whelan class of rifle and case life is improved. In the case of these highly tapered antique cartridges yes the improved versions can have benefits.
I sit at the feet 🦶 of the Buddha of ballistics willing to learn thank you 🙏 sir!
So glad to see Benny doing well.
PO Ackley didn’t have access to modern slow burning powders, and heavy high BC bullets in his time.
Personally I’ll take the extra capacity, less case fatigue and better performance.
Great! You got MY attention! I read Fred Zeglin's book, "P.O. Ackley-America's Gunsmith." I haven't finished it; it's a little dry for binge-reading. He opened his gunshop pretty early in life and worked as a gunsmith. As I read I got the impression that he was nearly always at odds with the apparent fashion of shooting big-caliber bullets at big game, slowly. He thought that a faster smaller caliber would work better. He tinkered with HIS guns to find improvements for existing ammunition and, I think, he proved his point, sometimes. I suspect that he hoped a manufacturer, like Remington, would pick up his design. Also, I think, since I've felt the urge myself, that some(many?) people took some inferrance that this was what he thought was a good idea for changing their rifle. Your points really illuminate the absolutely illogical reasoning in making the change. I especially appreciate the aspect about fire-forming with commercial ammo. You just know alot of people have made that mistake. I especially like the argument you make about the 7mm-08AI vs. the 280Rem. If one went from a 24-inch baffle on the 7mm-08, how much longer should you want the barrel, with that extra ten grains of powder?
The Ackley improved versions of some rimmed cartridges are seriously transformed by the process, making very interesting cartridges for single-shot rifles. That is one area where the flood of newfangled factory cartridges never seems to touch, due to such limited market potential. One example would be the .25/35 Ackley Improved, though many other nice cartridges for single-shot use go beyond mere "improving" and are full-blown wildcats... such as the 6mm-.30/30 with a sharp Ackley-style shoulder, or the .219 Donaldson Wasp.
So I’ve now gone from a 270 Winchester to a 270 actually improve chamber and I’m going to take my 24 inch barrel and move to a 26 inch or 27 inch heavy barrel next year probably. Trying to do one significant alteration at a time. But I want to make sure that with the 270 if I have a longer barrel than the standard 24 inch barrel that it came with that I will when using slower powders Benefit. I’m going to try to push the barrel length out as far as I can without passing the point where I reach diminished returns
glad to hear your dog is doing good! I would love to hear your thoughts on the .284 Winchester and the .325 wsm. I think they are excellent cartridges but just aren't popular.
The 284 is basically a shortened version of the 280 Remington, ballistically. It uses a rebated rim cartridge that allowed Winchester to use a standard size bolt face with a fatter body in their short action Model 100 semi-auto and Model 88 lever guns. It was a good round, but almost an immediate flop commercially for a number of reasons that had more to do with marketing and packaging than ballistics, and in many ways suffered similarly to the Remington 280, for similar reasons. It was touted as the short action version of their 270 Winchester, but folks don't generally buy autos and lever guns for long range shooting. Brass was weird, so it was expensive and only offered by Winchester. Folks who used those rifles were satisfied with the 308 or 243, and if they wanted a long range gun, they bought the 270. It became more popular later as a wildcatter's case, and was stuffed with different bullets, but even they faded out. I frankly have no fondness for any of the short magnums. They have good ballistics, but are costly, ammo is not widely available, use lots of additional powder to derive another 100 to 200 feet per second (20 to 40 yards of theoretical range) that's outside the ethical distance for taking shots at game, and they tend to be tougher on barrels than their standard counterparts. That added powder really ups the recoil significantly too. Lots of powder requires lots of barrel to burn fully, which adds lots of weight to a gun. The rounds don't even handle well in the hand or load into a magazine naturally. Most of them have been sliding in popularity, if they had any at all. Every so often gun makers come out with new ammo with some different spin, but all they do is spit out the same bullets at the same speed that some other round was doing under a different name. A good example is the 6.5 Creedmoor. It has exactly the same ballistics as the 20 year old 260 Remington and 125 year old 6.5 Swede. It does nothing differently, and is actually less versatile, but the Creedmoor name is more catchy. I always advise sticking to the stuff that's been around, because rarely is there any advantage to the new offering, except to spend more of your money.
thanks a bunch for all of the great info. have a fantastic day!!!
GunBlue490 I agree 100% on the 6.5 Creedmore. In my opinion, people just love to say catchy names out loud and Creedmore is one. Hornady has been great at marketing new rounds that do nothing new.
The .284 is an excellent cartridge, with modern powders i.e. rel17 people are getting right close to 3000fps with a 180gr bullet. It has seen a resurgence in popularity as of late. More companies are making match quality brass for it. Many F class shooters are using it to win matches. It has been wildcatted in 6.5 for many years and it is what the 450 Bushmaster is based upon. Build one, you won't be disappointed.
I’m debating between a 280 Ackley and a 7mm Rem Mag.
Watched both of these being prepped for deer season. Same powder and bullets across the same chronograph. What he claimed was max recommended loads were highly accurate in both and within 20fps or lessof each other. I'd personally take the 7mmRM for the easier to find ammo if you're in a pinch but I would be more inclined to think the 280AI has superior barrel accuracy life by a likely small margin. But I guess I say that having picked up the only 6.5mm rifle more common than a Creedmoor and used $13/box ammo for nearly a decade without so much as a hiccup so ymmv. :)
...I guess I say that ironically...
First: I am really happy to hear that Benny is doing well.
Second: Thank you for another awesome lesson in a subject that is hard to find cold facts about. You boil it down to pure understandable facts. Thank you.
I wish people and businesses selling used guns in my area would realize that a used gun is worth less than a new gun.
That's a quite common issue these days that has much to do with internet auction sales where folks are selling very used guns as if new, just because they have a box... Not always even the serial numbered box. As long as people reward such antics and buy them, it'll continue.
Almost all sectors of the used gun market is flooded. I wish more people would realize this and turn down these high used gun prices. If you dont pay it, they can't sell it. There are too many great new guns at good prices. This is why I have bought only 1 used gun in my life.
280Ai seems to be getting extremely popular lately
That's because it has been adopted as a factory chambering, and commercial ammo is made for it. It doesn't have the liabilities that I spoke of. But, it's still only providing 50 to 100 feet greater velocity, which is quite underwhelming.
@@GunBlue490 yea. Still seems pointless to me
P.S. to my last comment : The remarks in the video about cheap chronographs leading to the decline of improved cartridges are quite true. Most Imp. loads got much of their velocities by increasing pressure to the ragged edge. But other huge factors in the decline were: 1) the end of vast qua titles of cheap military surplus rifles to play with, and 2) the difference in the price of labor between now and 40 or 50 years ago.
I appreciate your videos. Always educational. Thank you!
It's a long video with a lot of useful information as usual, so I may have missed it and I'm not sure I want to sit through the whole thing again, but I did see you referenced the Nosler manual. I missed where you mentioned Nosler saw enough benefit to the improved cambering to actually manufacture an improved cartridge available in their loaded ammunition as well as selling their brass for. Maybe someday I will watch this video again in it's entirety trying to remember to watch for that part I evidently missed.
How are regular rimless cartridges headspaced inside the 40 deg A.I. shoulder? In other words if I were to put a regular no-go field gauge inside an A.I. chamber will the bolt close? If it does I can't see how it's safe to fire regular cartridges inside A.I. chambers. Although it's probably the ONLY way to obtain A.I. brass by the initial fire forming.
They are made to fireform regular cases
Well, a standard round headspaces on the datum line, located on the shoulder midway between the neck and outside shoulder juction. An AI chamber uses its own headspace gauge set, based on its datum line position which is farther forward. A standard round does not headspace on the datum line in an AI chamber. It uses the neck and shoulder junction as a temporary headspace for initial fireforming until the case is blown out. It's perfectly safe, and was made to work that way. But, regular headspace gauges are too short for an AI chamber and will close on them.
Id love to hear ur thoughts on all copper or guilded metal bullets for deer hunting. Is there velocity gaines like barnes load data show by switching to their copper bullet or stay with the standard cup and core bullets. Thank you and God bless
I'll start with a basic truth: deer are not difficult to kill. Another: Solid copper alloy bullets have been used by a very small minority of hunters in the history of deer hunting, which has only recently increased because of local state regulation. With those truths in mind, one can safely say that over the 125 years of modern centerfires, standard lead core bullets have killed 99.99+ percent of all deer ever taken, so it certainly does not point to a need to gain anything. Such bullets certainly cannot go faster than a lead core bullet. Velocity is a function of powder and pressures, limited by the resistance of bullet weight and barrel contact (friction). Lead and solid core bullets of equal weight differ significantly in length, because lead is more dense, thus shorter. Shorter bullets have less friction due to barrel contact, and solid bullets have more. More friction means more resistance. More resistance means that pressures go up. A gun has the same pressure limit, regardless of bullet construction, so that means reducing the powder charge, thus lowering velocity. So, if I can load a 130 grain lead core bullet in my 270 Winchester with a given powder and primer, and I obtain 3,120 feet per second safely, I will not magically gain velocity by stuffing in a solid core bullet that is longer and has greater barrel friction, AND intrudes more deeply into the case, which reduces powder capacity, requiring less powder. There's no free ride.
So happy to hear Benny is doing well.
Hi sir glad to hear Benny doing good and thanks for all the videos. Any plans to make a video about gun powders for newbies like me? I just bought a 6mm creedmoor(Ruger precision rifle 24 inch barrel) and new to reloading, I keep hearing people talk about cool burning powders(H1000) and how some of them will give you more barrel life and better for your gun in general. As I can understand in return you loose some speed? Thank you again.
I've done a vid on powders. The primary issue is accuracy performance. Regardless of marketing claims, no powder is more accurate than another, unless it is accurate in your particular cartridge/rifle combination, based on YOUR testing. Everything else is entirely irrelevant. H1000 powder is no different than any other, and can be expected to do anything more than other powders. It's all about your rifle. H1000 powder performed terribly in my trials and recoil was horrible. If you want my opinion, stick with single based extruded powders, and you will have cleaner burning, more consistent accuracy across all charge weights, and generally better overall performance.
ok thank you.
Not aware that Benny had surgery sir but I am glad that he is doing better. Will pray for his continued recovery.
Hi Captain, I commend you on your knowledge and obvious passion for "all-things-Firearms" - You're the Man!
I have been a subscriber for nearly 2 years and you have continued to keep me engaged and interested in your channel, video's and its contents.
Captain, there's a world of so-called professionals out there today who all boast about how good they are, which compared to your "Natural" passion and depth of knowledge are worlds apart!
I thank you for sharing your world of "all-things-Firearms" with us... Also while I am at, thank you for also being transparent about allowng God into your life and sharing your faith with us, one last point worthy of a mention is this... Thank you for being honest, transparent and truthful and NOT having any EGO in your life and beliefs, I really appreciate it, Bless you Captain !!!!
I have always thought the same things about the Axkley Improved chamberings. It is nice to know that I was thinking correctly. I have always avoided rifles with the improved chambering. I do own one rifle with a wildcat chamber, a 257-6.5 Arisaka Sporter, but it was a gift from a Gunsmith that did not want to sell it.
Gunblue490, I'm very happy for Benny. Good luck to you both. I honor and respect your opinion in all things relating to guns and shooting, and I'd like to hear your opinion on other another subject: Gun pioneers and gun writers. I'd love to hear your opinions about famous gun writers and pioneers. People like Charles Askins, Townsend Whelen, Elmer Kieth, Warren Page, P.O. Ackley, etc. I know you've mentioned some of these guys in your past videos. We can all read biographies of these guys, but I think we all would like to know your personal feelings, both positive and negative, about the influence these people had on the shooting sports.
Hornady and Nosler make factory ammo and brass for 280 Ackley. Federal announced they will be making them in 2019 too. So far, 280 Ackley is probably the exception though.
In only a very minutes you explained, so that even I could understand, why the "improved" rounds have for the most part fallen by the wayside. And without ever having met any of the hunters in question you also explained, to my satisfaction, why they were so upset when they tried to trade in a rifle with an improved chambering and were lucky to get much for them after, in several cases that I recall, spending A LOT of their hard earned money on rifle chamberings they only knew about because of articles printed in one or two magazines. By the way, assuming you have not already made and uploaded one on the subject, please consider producing a video on "the good, the bad, and the ugly" of rebarreling, NOT rechambering, of hunting rifles. I'm interested for myself because I'm roughly 98.999% sure that a previous owner had the factory barrel replaced, on my Savage 99 chambered in .250-3000/.250 Savage, while attempting to turn it into a varmit rifle. Thanks for yet another educational and thought provoking video! Keep 'em coming!
Cheeahs to you too, glad to hear Benny is getting better
Thanks for another video gunblue.☺.. would a 22k hornet be considered an improved cartridge of 22 hornet?
Yes, it is. However, due to its very small size and rather low velocity, the proportion of velocity gain is quite good, giving around 100 to 150 additional feet per second. That is, adding 25 yards to a 150 yard varmint round is more meaningful than 25 to a 400 yard round.
@@GunBlue490 Nice! Thanks explains why my grandfather did it to his hornet. It was the first center fire rifle me and my brother were allowed to shoot and i still have it.
God bless.
That would be great! Their are many more of the older ones out there than the new model and I have a nice one with a bull barrel and the rear sight is similar to a bomar so I can't justify a new pistol for the benefit of easier take down and with a little finagleing I manage to get it back together. God Bless you and your entire Family! Tom from Utah
I have no interest in reloading, but oddly I found this presentation very interesting and informative. Continued good health and good times for you and Benny!
I bet you’ll get into it when the third shortage in two decades hits before 2030. I’ve got 17,000 primers in stock with the powder to back it up.
Higher velocities is just one of the benefits of the Ackley Improved shoulder.
I currently shoot and reload the 7x57 Mauser Ackley Improved, 280 Ackley Improved and 30-06 Springfield Ackley Improved cartridges.
I can tell you there is a measurable increase in velocity in my rifles, but also slows the growth of the case length too.
The benefits of the Ackley Improved cartridges still lives strong today regardless of your own personal findings.
Education is the key in anything, the 280 Ackley Improved cartridge is a SAAMI standard chambering today and factory brass and ammunition is readily available.
Your personal findings are exaggerated with Ackley Improved cartridges.
Reloading any centerfire cartridge has its own challenges not just Ackley Improved cartridges. Case head separation can happen to any cartridge.
@@twintwo1429 That's an excellent argument, 😂.
I'm waiting for the, "280 Ackley Improved Further Improved". 🤣🤣
When fire forming for the improved cartridges, seat a bullet against the rifling lands and use a light powder charge. That will eliminate most web stretching.
A few months ago I was actually looking to buy a rifle in .280 ack imp. I know Nosler, Bergara, Kimber and Savage make rifles in the .280 AI I am glad I didn't. If you want something like that get a .270 or 7mm Rem Mag. The 280 AI with a 140gr bullet runs about the same as a factory .270 130gr. Which is 3000 fps.but a handload 130gr from a .270 Win can run faster 3100fps. While a hot loaded 140gr 7mm Rem mag runs over 3200 fps. I also know with the .280 AI Nosler and Hornady are the only factory loads you can get for it. Ultimately I chose the 7mm rem mag because you have more choices in bullet weights heavier for caliber bullets and you can load it down to emulate a 7x57mm or 7mm-08. You have an awesome versatile rifle suitable for nearly all game in North America. Thank you for sharing this information about the AI chamberings.
Couldnt agree more. In the end, ammo researchers will never really best the 270 Winchester....albeit I will never frown on the 280 Remington.
7-33 nosler with .838 BC 190 A-tip 28''BBL 3,200fps delivers 1,000fpe @ 1 mile gives 1000 rounds of accurate barrel life! feeds from a detachable long action box magazine without the bullet seated into the powder column of the case! and has a longer case neck giving longer barrel life than a 28 nosler!
Had a 6mm Remington Ackley improved. Case length did slow down with the 40 degree shoulder . Brass still flowed for at the junction of shoulder and case neck. It was called the dreaded donut. Learned things the hard way. Should have stuck with the standard cartridge. Read Aclkleys book. 250 Savage was the best improve cartridge. It brought powder volume up to a necked up 243 to 257 diameter. The 25-08 was called the 25 Apollo.
Not to be arguementative, but the same Hornady manual you were citing from lists actual data for the 280 AI chambering. With most bullet weights the performance was about 100 fps behind the 7mmRM but, oddly enough, they were able to achieve 3000 fps with bullets in the 150-154 gr range. (Equaling the 7mmRM performance with bullets in the same weight range, using 24 inch barrels in each caliber)
Glad Benny's doing OK. :) While I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I still believe the 280 Remington and 280 AI specifically fill a niche worth mentioning. I've been considering a 7mm build for a long time to "play with" the much higher BC's and bullets available in .284. The 7mm-08 was just never enough considering the different things I want to try to do with it. On the flipside, the 7mm Magnum just seemed like overkill in the "boxes" I wanted to play in. Enter the .280 Remington and slightly better .280AI concept. A friend recently inherited a 24" .280 Rem rifle, light Varmint contour so I helped him go about the business of load developement. Without getting too deep into the particulars, found a sweet spot with 150grn , IMR4350 52.6 grns and 2910ish fps but he was on the edge with apparent pressure signs and looking for more. Long story short, my buddy had a sentimental attachment to this rifle so off came the barrel and cut/reamed to .280 AI chamber dimensions. Loaded up some Nosler brass, same bullets and BR2 primers, and 55.8 grains of IMR 4350 and now we're at 3040 ish fps with hardly a sign of pressure problems and shooting about 1/3-1/2moa....yup, 3.2 more grains of powder but the before and after results surprised me. I'm not going to break out the slide rule here and figure out how he's outperforming the 7mm Mag but I witnessed this and participated in this one myself. I went so far as to break out my $160 chrono just to see, and the differences in results were +/- 10-12 fps with a 6 shot comparison. All that changed here were chamber dimensions, Nosler brass and the amount of powder. Did the end justify the means??? My buddy seems to think so? Please keep the good information coming so we can all discuss and learn from each other. I've learned so much from your infinite firearms knowledge and experience and appreciate you taking the time to share it with us. I too believe in the "laws of physics" but some times there's those anomalies that just "are". Funny how I read the many forums and stories on this cartridge and everybody seems to have a different perspective. All I can do is share what I know to be true that I've personally experienced. Take it for what it's worth.
Great information as always and I hope Benny has a speedy recovery!
I hope Benny’s health continues to improve.
I see a lot of ideas about hunting calibers and always come back to your videos for the ground truth. Some states that have been shotgun-only for deer have legalized straight-wall pistol cartridge carbines (.357 and .44 Mag). Do you have any videos discussing these cartridges for deer? what are their advantages over buckshot or slugs for deer? Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving!
I have not covered that topic regarding rifles, but I did with regard to handguns. However, as you know, the selection of available straight wall rifle metallic cartridges suited for deer are quite limited. Any of the actual rifle rounds are indeed quite effective; the 45-70, 444 Marlin, and those that are ballistically similar. They generally possess a meritorious advantage in accuracy over most shotguns, and generally have better range, of up to 150 or more yards, which genuinely adds 50 to 75 yards of confident striking distance. Despite improvements in shotgun technology, they are still reasonably limited to 50 to 100 yards on deer, after which things get a bit iffy in terms of assured, accurate control for most shooters. As to handgun rounds used in rifles, they have certain advantages of compactness, quick handling, and have that attractive American mystique. While their 20 or more inch barrels add significant velocity compared to handguns, and while they improve striking assurance with their longer sighting radius, they still have relatively anemic power compared to standard rifle cartridges that should confine them to within 50 to 60 yards for deer. That's not any advantage in practical terms over 12 gauge shotguns, which certainly enjoy at least that range, plus far better striking energy and bore diameter when they hit. My first centerfire rifle was a .44 Magnum, my Dad had a 44 Magnum Ruger, and I have been working with my friend's recently. Striking an 8 inch gong at 75 yards with full power loads is an entertaining pastime, but it's problematic. That's not the sort of accuracy I would recommend for hunting anywhere but close woodland shooting conditions. In fact, Ruger discontinued their carbine that they advertised years ago as the ideal 40 yard deer rifle. There simply isn't very inspiring power downrange with a bullet that sheds velocity swiftly. Unless one has a distinct aversion to the recoil of the 44 Magnum, I consider the 357 Magnum limited to 35 to 40 yards.
does making a sharper shoulder increase the recoil? Or make the loading harder/easier?
in my experiments, sharp shoulders can increase burning efficiency....the draw back brings stickier extraction sometimes, as the body taper has been removed most the IMP case dims.
Recoil is opposite reaction to movement, so no, cartridge design has nothing to do with it. Loading is the same for any round, but the shape of the case can have certain effects on case life. Straight walled cases tend to stretch less than greatly tapered ones, because brass doesn't flow forward quite so much, so a 22-250 case with a sloped taper will flow forward more than a 223 with a straighter case wall. Sloped shoulders are a bit more forgiving of minor excess case lubrication than sharper shoulders that easily trap lubrication, which can actually collapse the case due to less support. Sloped tapers were designed for a good reason; to make case removal easier, especially in dirty combat conditions, so it's generally not good to mess with what works.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for this illuminating vid; I have been considering a 243 AI but my mind is changed.
That's great news, in regard to Benny.
Re Ackley imp video: Pros: 1) Ackley admitted that results were often poor when working w/ ctgs w/ little body taper to start with. 2) The loads in his manuals were HOT! 3) John Barsness (Handloader & Rifle ) seems to have proven his " Rule of 4" beyond any doubt. ( it takes a 20% increase in powder to produce a 5% increase in velocity) . Cons: as long as the distance from the case head to the datum line hasn't changed in the imp. ctg. standard cases CAN be fired in the Imp. chamber w/o case stretching @ the web . 2) W/ certain ctgs. 30.30 & .303 British being prime examples, switching to an Imp. chamber can dramatically extend case life by reducing the excessive body taper which leads to shortened case life. This has the added benefit of reducing case thrust against the bolt face. However, for the reasons cited in the video this would not be a wise move w/ an old,valuable Win. M94. For a sporterized Lee Enfield or P14 (which are still far from rare up here ) it might have benefits. (Full disclosure: I have reamers for both.)
It's not just about performance, case life in some calibers is greatly improved such as the 22-250AI.
Thanks for the wonderfully informative videos.
Those velocity numbers for the 7 mag are very conservative. My 24 inch barrel 7mag shot 160-162 grain bullets over 3000 FPS. On a ohler 33 cronograph. These loads were not showing pressure signs and I reloaded hundreds of them.
Your loads are certainly standard top listed loadings found in manuals; nothing out of the usual for individual firearms. The industry does not load to the top for very good reasons. Such relatively small velocity increases doesn't materially affect my comments.
You completely misrepresented what the Nosler book says about the process fireform brass and shooting factory, off the shelf, ammo in an Improved chamber. It’s clear that you haven’t reloaded for this or gone through this process. Improved cases IN FACT last longer than a case with a large taper such as 22-250 or .348. I own rifles in both and have reloaded extensively for each. They are indeed substantial improvements in comparison to both those factory cases.
My discussion was about practicality, cost, and real velocity improvement. You are speaking of case life. I did not misrepresent anything. On case life alone, one would pay for hundreds of cases to amortize the cost of a rechambering, dies, time, powder, and bullets used to fireform cases. I know factually that modified rifles lowers gun value, and it's a matter of NRA published valuation. If that suits your purpose for your rifles, and if it suits others, I certainly have no issue with such preference, but I'm here to inform based on facts that they can consider and weigh, of matters they may regret.
Heard about .45-70 improved. No real gain in ballistics, but made it difficult to chamber these level 3 cartridges in wrong-action-strength rifles.
My question when I started researching Ackley improved was how many modern factory cartridges have a 40° shoulder? I couldn't find any... Most of your modern cartridges are right around 25 to 30%. 65 creedmoor 30% many others in that range but nothing that I found was 40%. So if the improved 40% shoulder is so great then why don't we see it in factory cartridges? Thanks that was a great discussion 👍
Because its much fussier to manufacture at a high profit margin. A guy at his own reloading bench probably isn’t being hurried by overhead. He just wants accuracy and follows the steps that give results. Having said that, I did learn from GunBlue that neck sizing does the same thing for case stretch that the 40 degree shoulder does. Ackley was of the opinion that his shoulder angle also allowed for better bullet concentricity, which how does anyone prove or disprove that theiry?
So happy Benny is doing well
Me too. Thanks.