I’m a U.K. based Air Show pilot. Looking at the way the US Air Shows are managed seems crazy to us. Our system has its flaws too, but we would never allow an Air Boss (we call them Flying Display Directors here) to be dictating how an individual act or formation should be positioning during a display. The only thing the FDD can do here is clear the pilot to display, terminate the display for a safety reason or give warning calls if too low, or too close. All these calls are standardised at all shows so pilots clearly understand them no matter what show they are at or who the FDD is running it. A display like this would also be rehearsed in advance. If a rehearsal wasn’t able to be carried out it for whatever reason then the display wouldn’t take place in that format or at all or the act modified in some way to minimise these issues. Also it seems crazy to have a fixed wing aircraft revenue flight active during a display act, especially one with this many aircraft. We don’t allow any other take offs or landings during a display in case the display act has an emergency and needs the runway immediately which has happened many times during aircraft emergencies during displays. Fixed wing revenue flying is only permitted before or after the show. We allow helicopter revenue flights at some shows during the display, but they have their own sterile area away from the crowd line and nominated display area. The display aircraft are not allowed near this sterile area either and obviously the helicopters don’t require use of the runway.
“His father is well-known for decades.” That sounds like what they said about Hannah Gutierrez-Reed. Experience, knowledge, and judgement are not hereditary.
Yeah it is a really odd answer that when the air boss' experience at airshows comes into question to say that his *father* has been known in the industry for decades and he's seen all these shows for 20 years. If seeing airshows makes you an airboss then I'm a TV producer. Also, the subsequent "who is better than him"-thing is a non sequitur, like it does not logically follow at all. I get that we should look broadly at the set of circumstances that lead to an accident, like Mover says, the Swiss cheese model. It isn't the blame of a single "hole" that the accident happened, but this feels like overly apologetic to the Air Boss and the stuff being said in mitigation of this person doesn't make me feel sympathetic to their plight at all unfortunately.
@@KarelKat07 I think his point was the Air Boss has already "Been" an apprentice learning the whole job from his father by being literally next to, watching, and listening to his dad while he was conducting these shows most of his life, so he grew up with and knew the job inside and out, and at least according to the guest speaker that knows and knew BOTH the Air Boss and Multiple Pilots flying for him personally (So would be less likely to lie about one, to cover the ass of another; keyword "Less Likely" I'm not claiming it never happens); the pilots all seemed comfortable and at ease with his his job performance and as Mover even mentions NONE of the pilots flying EVER brought up or mentioned a possible safety issue, needing more rugged deconfliction, or a lack of understanding what was expected of them by the Air Boss. That has NOTHING to do with Hannah Reed, who seems more like a lazy valley girl who wanted an easy gig using her Daddys reputation and connections, without having to do the actual work and put in the actual effort that got him them. If a reputable persons apprentice of 10-15+ years, with a so far spotless record now that he himself has "Officially" started and taken on the job suddenly had a horrible incident that took mere seconds; snd NONE of the safety concerns thrown at him after were EVER brought up by the actual physical people there both on rhe ground AND in the air... It wouldn't even be a factor considered and just considered a series of unfortunate events and oversights "aka the big cheese" mentioned. But everybody wants someone to blame, and no ones better than a villan. So OF COURSE he must be an inept idiot, OF COURSE he must be an arrogant re*ard nepotism hire not knowing what he's doing, and OF COURSE it's all 100% completely his fault with no mitigating factors or defense... Even Mover said from the footage from the Air Bosses position he couldn't tell if anyone was colliding until it happens. If you want to blame anyone, look at the organization that's run shows this way for decades, or the complacency of Decades doing the same thing with no issue. One of the eternal unavoidable constants that will always happen amongst Death, Taxes, etc, is "Murphy is a Bitch" and the forever entwined "Shit Happens". I don't know whether the Air Boss is guilty or innocent, and as such won't claim so either; one way or the other. But to say "Fuck'em, he deserves to feel like shit so I don't care how he feels". Just seems like a cold and shitty response to me personally, but then again you're not; so to each their own I guess.
Our guest speaker here has said the most telling thing here, even if he didn’t mean to. There was no deconfliction system in play except visual flight separation. He said there never is at that show, and that none of the pilots seemed concerned or questioned it. This is an almost textbook case of Normalization of Deviation. They were setting themselves up for failure for years, but lulled themselves into a false sense of security because nothing bad had happened before. He says it was a breakdown of the Swiss cheese model, but that lineup of holes is very easy when you only put 3 slices of cheese on the plate.
I am a non-pilot but have been going to UK airshows since the 1970s. The idea that there wasn't altitude separation / deconfliction and that the air director / boss told the pilots to hurry up or change the display as it is happening is unbelievable. A very tragic and avoidable loss of life.
I use to fly in the CAF Shows back when it was the Confederate Air Force. We ALWAYS had separation of the aircraft based on category and performance, this Air Boss was a JOKE! We had EVERYTHING meticulously planned including emergency procedures, engine failures and such in the pre-airshow pilot briefing! So when we flew, EVERYONE knew their place! You did not need the Air Boss constantly shouting confusing orders, it was planned properly and ran smoothly! This Air Boss was a JOKE, he was NOT formation rated and only flew small Cessna's and such! We were placed in our orbits/altitudes primarily based on aircraft performance and you DID NOT leave your assigned altitude. This guy does not have a clue what he's talking about, "the show was about getting pictures", he is not even qualified to discuss this issue because he is not a qualified airshow pilot nor formation rated, he's a photographer first and foremost. This interview is from his perspective and he's just as clueless as the Air Boss was! Sorry guy's, this is not your best! Why even waste your band width with a photographer who's ONLY experience with this is as a passenger when he say's he's "flown" in these situations! His entire focus is on his camera, not flying! "He said: I'm trying to explain the pilot's view as a photographer" WHAT? So! Would be like a pilot telling a photographer how to do their job just because he has a cell phone with the latest camera. His Dad Air Bossed for 30 years so that should have been the best qualification you could ask for? So, his dad flew the B-29 in Airshows for 30 years, so stick him in the pilot seat just because his Dad flew it? I know this guy is sincere and means well, but he is NOT even qualified to be considered as serious interview material, like every other photographer on the ramp, it's merely an "Opinion". You just as well get a lineman from the ramp to interview. Just sayin!
@@33vortex Yeah, but you're missing some data. I am the photographer, but I'm also a pilot, tailwheel instructor, I *have* flown formation, and have flown at the Wings Over Houston and Burnet airshows.
Find a airboss who understands the importance of keeping people alive! Seatbelts have saved many lives of people who would rather not wear them. The same principle applies in aviation, we don't have air safety regulations for convenience.
@@MetroplexAerials Then you should understand how unorthodox this Air Boss was! Complete disaster! I have NEVER had an Air Boss micro manage a performance like this disaster of a guy! he NEVER let's up! You provide a thorough and precise briefing and MINIMALIZE the chatter on the radio! Formation work takes a LOT of attention and concentration! The last thing you want or need is Mr Chatterbox distracting from EVERYONE! Totally unprofessional and proves he does not have a clue what he's doing! Are you warbird rated?? Not talking about cubs L-Models or Stearmans? Talking about the heavies and fighters?
Ryan Short has been a consistent apologist for the Air Boss, in my opinion. I take any of Mr. Short's opinions regarding the Dallas Executive Airport's "Wings Over Dallas" incident with a large grain of salt.
@@MetroplexAerials A lot of words saying nothing. Responsibility is not something that diminishes because you spread it around. If you don’t hold individuals responsible, you’re part of the problem.
@@edwardwright8127 If you think that holding individuals responsible for systemic failure will improve safety, you're also part of the problem. Read the NTSB report, they agree that this is - obviously - case of multiple failures lining up to cause the accident rather then individual failure.
@@misarthim6538 The NTSB report made it quite clear that the air boss screwed up. You can try to spin it any way you like, but the facts are there. If all you’re going to do is circle the wagons and protect your friends, I hope the insurance companies notice and you never get to do an airshow again.
He may have felt safe but he may not have realized he was never safe. If you did not have a problem before, maybe that means you have been lucky. Anybody who can critically think would come to the conclusion that the Air Boss screwed up. Stop apologizing for him. The pilots should have spoke up, but I think there was a "Show must go one" mentality or "we have done this many times we know what we are doing".
29:23 Gonky hits on the point that I've been saying is the primary causal factor in this. Regardless of who's ultimately to blame for it, not having any defined deconfliction strategy other than the Air Boss' control is the problem. You can talk about all the details, lack of practice, possible named points, etc. but it all comes down to there was no plan to keep planes apart other the Air Boss. And as Mover mentions, the air boss did not have a good perspective to see and direct this crossover. And that long string of instructions IMHO is indicative that the AB knew what he wanted but not how to set it up and command it and thus was making it up as he went. Just my 2 cents as someone ultimately way underqualified to have any expertise here ;)
It truly does. I think another issue - something I have seen in other air show videos too - is that the air boss is sometimes far too verbose. I haven't flown air shows so maybe it's an accepted thing, but in normal pilotage, comms are supposed to be short and concise for a reason. Adding words always creates the opportunity for confusion, and it also takes up valuable time. If you listen to the Blue Angels comms, often in two or three words the pilots know what to execute. Color commentary like "nice job fighters come on through" is completely non-functional. There was another air show video from a few years ago with one the F-16 demo pilots, the air boss provides a bunch of commentary before clearing the pilot to land, and you could tell the pilot was annoyed with it.
I was about 9 miles from that location. I could hear the planes making their loops, not see the airshow. It was sad to hear the news. In that area or within that area, Ft Worth, DFW, there are so many airports and planes flying around 24/7. I'd see commercial airlines, current military fighters, private planes, old planes,etc every single day just sitting in the back yard.
A reupload? What went wrong with the original upload? This interview was a low point. This photographer is quite full of himself and for anyone interested in facts only wastes your time. The safety during this event was compromised, with people overestimating their abilities something that happens easily in this kind of environment. Separation between aircraft means your life and it's reckless and disrespectful to compromise on security to prioritize photo ops. I'm Swedish, have nothing to do with warbird flying other than in hobby sims but I am absolutely shocked to find out how this event was run. Find a better airboss, my opinion.
@@themoverandgonkyshow Yes and I've watched this 40 minute clip before with this guy. Safety is not his main concern here obviously. What does 30k airline flight hours have to do with warbird formation flying? Absolutely nothing.
@@themoverandgonkyshow I see, interesting. Because I commented on that clip before and there was a discussion, all the previous comments are gone. So yeah, all that didn't happen then I suppose. Funny how the internet works.
@@33vortex the 30K hours was specifically referring to Craig Hutain, who also had as good as a chunk of airshow flying as anyone, flying with Tora Tora Tora. These weren't simply amateurs and that's why more than superficial analysis about the airboss needs to be considered.
Don't know what to think guys. Definitely from the data, airboss had people crossing flight paths. Sad event. Saw Texas Raiders year before at Peachtree City airshow.
For sure. The fighters to the 500 line absolutely crossed the bombers headed to the 1000' line. I think that the last "exit ramp" from the accident was probably when Gunfighter expressed on the radio that things weren't clear. That should've triggered a deconfliction effort.
7:46 I'm assuming the air boss functions like any other airspace controlling agency, i.e. to maintain the safe separation and movement of aircraft. Priority should be maintaining the safety of flight for traffic within your airspace, not maximizing ride revenue.
When I used to fly, the controllers always made sure everyone had sight of the other aircraft in the pattern. We had to confirm to them that we had visual on the other aircraft. Always without exception. It always surprises me how many professionals have lower personal standards than average or even amateur personnel.
Strictly looking at the overhead view of the tracks when you were taking about the fighters spacing being on point, by that same logic the B-17 looks early out of the bomber formation. I'm not a pilot, just a military hardware and flight enthusiast. Tragic event that was probably completely avoidable with better planning.
Numerous questions about what fighter lead was responsible for. Interestingly, NTSB only did an on scene interview with him with very little forthcoming. They did some very thorough interviews later with some of the participants. Fighter 2 had some interesting comments about how he didn't like fingertip because he couldn't see the big picture. How can NTSB expect fighter 3 to see the B-17 if he was in a "formation"? Or were they not a formation when they went trail. He would have been looking at fighter 2. Did lead brief a loose tactical type extended trail with wingmen responsible for their own clearing? If I'm your wingman I don't expect you to drag me into a B-17. Dragging me into the top of an alto cu would be okay and fun.
How can you say this air boss did a great job???? Seriously did you listen to the radio communication?? The pilots were clearly asking 2 and 3 times what he wanted them to do!!! This guest seriously does not have a clue!!!
He didn't do a great job on the day of the accident - that's not the argument - but if you were at the previous year's airshow, you might have come to the conclusion that he did do at least a reasonably job for that show. Most of those pilots who flew with him in 2021 were back for 2022... Look at the 2021 Wings Over Dallas videos for yourself, don't take my word for it: ruclips.net/video/blNBkDXZSvA/видео.html&pp=ygUWMjAyMSB3aW5ncyBvdmVyIGRhbGxhcw%3D%3D To me, that begs some questions: What happened that the airboss messed up? Was it just incompetence, or something like a distraction, or other reasons?
The guy who was playing Airboss apparently has a reputation for setting a pretty poor atmosphere with the commemorative Air Force where if you speak up, you will get kicked off. Myself, along with quite a few people on the web here seem to agree that this accident was mainly caused by the Airboss running a chaotic show. edit: i’m kind of a Radio nerd and have been to 30+ air shows with scanner radios to listen in and this commemorative Air Force radio comms was totally weird and sounded just like the chaos it was. Every show I’ve been to there was almost complete radio silence from ground except for coordinating between acts, as it should be
If you read the full report you will see 4 pilots from the Wings over Houston held previously we're not happy with the air boss and his "free form" directions. They did not report that until after the Dallas accident.
One would think there would have been someone one the B17 in back watching. I know when I was involved with flying in either a PBY or an Albatross. My task was to watch the blind spots my pilot could not see whenever we were in formation or just the vicinity of other aircraft. At a 100 knots you just don’t quickly get out of the way. It had priority over entertaining guests.
I don’t know what their procedures were. I was on interphone 100% of the time. Cockpit was sterile. I called out the closure rates. I was always at the waist position. I was happy when we quit doing those flights.
I wasn’t trying disrespect anyone. It’s a sad situation for everyone involved. I separated myself because of the pride rides associated with operating Warbirds. I was just mentioning the method we used to increase the SA for the PIC in a large aircraft.
Ok, let's look at the logic on that. Assuming you are correct, that the buck stops at the airboss, why were *all* of the pilots willing to work with him?
@ It doesn’t matter if they are willing to work with him he is still ultimately responsible for everyone’s safety. If you look at the FAA release of probable cause he is at the top of the list! The investigation also found he did not conduct a proper pre-show safety briefing . He will be tied up in court with litigation against him for the next twenty years!!!
@puretrouble1603 Right, I can agree with most of that, but from an accident prevention point of view, what were the indications BEFORE the accident day and sequence, that he was unsafe? That's a serious, genuine question.
@@puretrouble1603 It does but the fighters still have to look where they're going. A simple difference in altitude and there is no collision. Poor or no planning beforehand and micro management from the Air Boss.
Yeah, I'm glad to have anymore info to get the best look at all actual pertinent information when finding or attempting to find the cause. This guy just seemed like a hey look at me kind of guy, I just need the info, not a list of all his accolades. He seemed like he just wanted to toot his own horn.
That's twice that he mentioned 'Yellow Gear' which is Ironic: The directive to repaint SE from yellow to white started in 1995. In modern times, the only thing yellow now is Forklifts or the Flight Deck Scrubber... and maybe few engine frame cases for 404 legacy hornets ...😅
Because "yellow gear" is the management term used to reference all Support Equipment (CSE, PSE, etc) to this day. And FDR/CVR "black boxes" are orange, go figure...
he wanted to bring the smaller planes to the 500ft line, I get that. What I don't get and what stops this accident from happening is why did the fighters have to cut in front of the bomber. Yet to hear anyone talk about that.
If this guy is a friend of the air boss, he should STFU. Everything he said doesn’t bode well for the airboss if he is sued in the civil court. Now as said by others, this dude is NOT an airshow pilot, NOT a formation’s pilot, he cannot know how the pilots behave in close formation, in an air show. I fly high performance aircraft but I am the first one to say I know nothing about formation flying in an airshow. I take everything he said as hearsay and opinions, and most flawed as well
I'm not apologizing for the airboss' failures. Also, I have flown formation and have flown in airshows, but that's not the point. The point is that if we think we're that good, we might miss critical things.
People that wanted flying cars decades ago don't appreciate the carnage we would have seen. I hope the imminent air taxi industry gets it right. Some will invoke 'AI' as if it's a magic word when that's really just a software algorithm dependent on programming and complex integration of sensor data.
Even when driving a car on an unfamiliar route, getting too many instructions just overloads the system, because you are dealing with traffic, speed, maybe other distractions on board, and, as you mentioned, in a 80 year old aircraft, with old instruments, noise from engines and props, trying to maintain a 3d pattern in your head ( like a professional ATC!), too many words, AND, instructions in your headset, for other aircraft...
The reason why FAA recommendations have to he made is insurance and legal liability. Airports and promoters will not be able to afford the payouts when self regulation fails, as it has here.
The implication that an FAA rep would be inherently more qualified or on point than the members of the show is the kind of backwards red tape that kills airshows.
Absolutely, the one thing to keep in mind about the FAA is, if you can't make it in the REAL world of Aviation, you get a job with the FAA! Never been a truer statement! Yes, there are a FEW exceptions, but very few! After 43 years in Aviation, I could tell you horror stories about how unqualified and clueless most FAA employee's really are! Just another Government career/retirement chaser! I could start with the Woman currently head the FAA! ZERO Aviation experience before being appointed/anointed!
“I think the ride stuff is fairly new, and most of the shows like Wings Over Houston don’t do that. Dallas is a fairly unique airshow in that regards.” Nonsense. Airshows have been doing rides as long as airshows have existed. EAA does rides in the Ford Trimotor every single year.
Hey gonk, I love ya man but your talking out your ass on trying to compare chemical addiction to a phone app…. I think you’d be hard pressed to get physically and mentally fcked for weeks on end..
Isn't the pilot of a fast-moving aircraft kind of responsible for themself in a situation like this? The Kingcobra pilot really should have been aware of his surroundings kind of like a driver of a 60s era muscle car passing a semi truck on the road would be for his/hers. He is ultimately in charge of where the plane goes and therefore seems to me to be responsible for the majority of the blame for this tragedy. This is coming from a high time pilot with an uninformed opinion...😑
Usually there is a TFR during an airshow. Curious why the steer man showed up during a scheduled airshow anyways. I would have said go somewhere else. Either way I can’t even fault the air boss . The pilot knew better.
I’m a U.K. based Air Show pilot. Looking at the way the US Air Shows are managed seems crazy to us. Our system has its flaws too, but we would never allow an Air Boss (we call them Flying Display Directors here) to be dictating how an individual act or formation should be positioning during a display. The only thing the FDD can do here is clear the pilot to display, terminate the display for a safety reason or give warning calls if too low, or too close. All these calls are standardised at all shows so pilots clearly understand them no matter what show they are at or who the FDD is running it. A display like this would also be rehearsed in advance. If a rehearsal wasn’t able to be carried out it for whatever reason then the display wouldn’t take place in that format or at all or the act modified in some way to minimise these issues.
Also it seems crazy to have a fixed wing aircraft revenue flight active during a display act, especially one with this many aircraft. We don’t allow any other take offs or landings during a display in case the display act has an emergency and needs the runway immediately which has happened many times during aircraft emergencies during displays. Fixed wing revenue flying is only permitted before or after the show. We allow helicopter revenue flights at some shows during the display, but they have their own sterile area away from the crowd line and nominated display area. The display aircraft are not allowed near this sterile area either and obviously the helicopters don’t require use of the runway.
“His father is well-known for decades.”
That sounds like what they said about Hannah Gutierrez-Reed.
Experience, knowledge, and judgement are not hereditary.
Yeah it is a really odd answer that when the air boss' experience at airshows comes into question to say that his *father* has been known in the industry for decades and he's seen all these shows for 20 years. If seeing airshows makes you an airboss then I'm a TV producer. Also, the subsequent "who is better than him"-thing is a non sequitur, like it does not logically follow at all.
I get that we should look broadly at the set of circumstances that lead to an accident, like Mover says, the Swiss cheese model. It isn't the blame of a single "hole" that the accident happened, but this feels like overly apologetic to the Air Boss and the stuff being said in mitigation of this person doesn't make me feel sympathetic to their plight at all unfortunately.
This guy only wants to save his friend’s a$$
@@KarelKat07 I think his point was the Air Boss has already "Been" an apprentice learning the whole job from his father by being literally next to, watching, and listening to his dad while he was conducting these shows most of his life, so he grew up with and knew the job inside and out, and at least according to the guest speaker that knows and knew BOTH the Air Boss and Multiple Pilots flying for him personally (So would be less likely to lie about one, to cover the ass of another; keyword "Less Likely" I'm not claiming it never happens); the pilots all seemed comfortable and at ease with his his job performance and as Mover even mentions NONE of the pilots flying EVER brought up or mentioned a possible safety issue, needing more rugged deconfliction, or a lack of understanding what was expected of them by the Air Boss.
That has NOTHING to do with Hannah Reed, who seems more like a lazy valley girl who wanted an easy gig using her Daddys reputation and connections, without having to do the actual work and put in the actual effort that got him them.
If a reputable persons apprentice of 10-15+ years, with a so far spotless record now that he himself has "Officially" started and taken on the job suddenly had a horrible incident that took mere seconds; snd NONE of the safety concerns thrown at him after were EVER brought up by the actual physical people there both on rhe ground AND in the air... It wouldn't even be a factor considered and just considered a series of unfortunate events and oversights "aka the big cheese" mentioned.
But everybody wants someone to blame, and no ones better than a villan. So OF COURSE he must be an inept idiot, OF COURSE he must be an arrogant re*ard nepotism hire not knowing what he's doing, and OF COURSE it's all 100% completely his fault with no mitigating factors or defense...
Even Mover said from the footage from the Air Bosses position he couldn't tell if anyone was colliding until it happens. If you want to blame anyone, look at the organization that's run shows this way for decades, or the complacency of Decades doing the same thing with no issue.
One of the eternal unavoidable constants that will always happen amongst Death, Taxes, etc, is "Murphy is a Bitch" and the forever entwined "Shit Happens".
I don't know whether the Air Boss is guilty or innocent, and as such won't claim so either; one way or the other. But to say "Fuck'em, he deserves to feel like shit so I don't care how he feels". Just seems like a cold and shitty response to me personally, but then again you're not; so to each their own I guess.
Our guest speaker here has said the most telling thing here, even if he didn’t mean to. There was no deconfliction system in play except visual flight separation. He said there never is at that show, and that none of the pilots seemed concerned or questioned it. This is an almost textbook case of Normalization of Deviation. They were setting themselves up for failure for years, but lulled themselves into a false sense of security because nothing bad had happened before.
He says it was a breakdown of the Swiss cheese model, but that lineup of holes is very easy when you only put 3 slices of cheese on the plate.
I am a non-pilot but have been going to UK airshows since the 1970s.
The idea that there wasn't altitude separation / deconfliction and that the air director / boss told the pilots to hurry up or change the display as it is happening is unbelievable.
A very tragic and avoidable loss of life.
One of the safety experts commenting on the Hannah Gutierrez-Reed case said, “When someone tells you to hurry up, that’s when you need to slow down.”
So tragic, I feel sorry for the loss of life and the vintage planes. Good coverage gentlemen!
I use to fly in the CAF Shows back when it was the Confederate Air Force. We ALWAYS had separation of the aircraft based on category and performance, this Air Boss was a JOKE! We had EVERYTHING meticulously planned including emergency procedures, engine failures and such in the pre-airshow pilot briefing! So when we flew, EVERYONE knew their place! You did not need the Air Boss constantly shouting confusing orders, it was planned properly and ran smoothly! This Air Boss was a JOKE, he was NOT formation rated and only flew small Cessna's and such! We were placed in our orbits/altitudes primarily based on aircraft performance and you DID NOT leave your assigned altitude. This guy does not have a clue what he's talking about, "the show was about getting pictures", he is not even qualified to discuss this issue because he is not a qualified airshow pilot nor formation rated, he's a photographer first and foremost. This interview is from his perspective and he's just as clueless as the Air Boss was! Sorry guy's, this is not your best! Why even waste your band width with a photographer who's ONLY experience with this is as a passenger when he say's he's "flown" in these situations! His entire focus is on his camera, not flying! "He said: I'm trying to explain the pilot's view as a photographer" WHAT? So! Would be like a pilot telling a photographer how to do their job just because he has a cell phone with the latest camera. His Dad Air Bossed for 30 years so that should have been the best qualification you could ask for? So, his dad flew the B-29 in Airshows for 30 years, so stick him in the pilot seat just because his Dad flew it? I know this guy is sincere and means well, but he is NOT even qualified to be considered as serious interview material, like every other photographer on the ramp, it's merely an "Opinion". You just as well get a lineman from the ramp to interview. Just sayin!
I've personally flown in Wings Over Houston airshow, I'm also a pilot, and talked with several of the pilots right after the accident.
@@MetroplexAerials Both of you would be better people to interview on this subject than this photographer.
@@33vortex Yeah, but you're missing some data. I am the photographer, but I'm also a pilot, tailwheel instructor, I *have* flown formation, and have flown at the Wings Over Houston and Burnet airshows.
Find a airboss who understands the importance of keeping people alive! Seatbelts have saved many lives of people who would rather not wear them. The same principle applies in aviation, we don't have air safety regulations for convenience.
@@MetroplexAerials Then you should understand how unorthodox this Air Boss was! Complete disaster! I have NEVER had an Air Boss micro manage a performance like this disaster of a guy! he NEVER let's up! You provide a thorough and precise briefing and MINIMALIZE the chatter on the radio! Formation work takes a LOT of attention and concentration! The last thing you want or need is Mr Chatterbox distracting from EVERYONE! Totally unprofessional and proves he does not have a clue what he's doing! Are you warbird rated?? Not talking about cubs L-Models or Stearmans? Talking about the heavies and fighters?
Ryan Short has been a consistent apologist for the Air Boss, in my opinion. I take any of Mr. Short's opinions regarding the Dallas Executive Airport's "Wings Over Dallas" incident with a large grain of salt.
I'm not apologizing for the airboss, I'm saying that it's more of a collective failure, complicated by several factors.
@@MetroplexAerials A lot of words saying nothing. Responsibility is not something that diminishes because you spread it around. If you don’t hold individuals responsible, you’re part of the problem.
@@edwardwright8127 If you think that holding individuals responsible for systemic failure will improve safety, you're also part of the problem. Read the NTSB report, they agree that this is - obviously - case of multiple failures lining up to cause the accident rather then individual failure.
@@misarthim6538 The NTSB report made it quite clear that the air boss screwed up. You can try to spin it any way you like, but the facts are there. If all you’re going to do is circle the wagons and protect your friends, I hope the insurance companies notice and you never get to do an airshow again.
He may have felt safe but he may not have realized he was never safe. If you did not have a problem before, maybe that means you have been lucky. Anybody who can critically think would come to the conclusion that the Air Boss screwed up. Stop apologizing for him. The pilots should have spoke up, but I think there was a "Show must go one" mentality or "we have done this many times we know what we are doing".
29:23 Gonky hits on the point that I've been saying is the primary causal factor in this. Regardless of who's ultimately to blame for it, not having any defined deconfliction strategy other than the Air Boss' control is the problem. You can talk about all the details, lack of practice, possible named points, etc. but it all comes down to there was no plan to keep planes apart other the Air Boss. And as Mover mentions, the air boss did not have a good perspective to see and direct this crossover. And that long string of instructions IMHO is indicative that the AB knew what he wanted but not how to set it up and command it and thus was making it up as he went. Just my 2 cents as someone ultimately way underqualified to have any expertise here ;)
Remember when one of the pilots commented how the air boss instructions was confusing? Speaks volumes.
And that should have triggered extra caution.
It truly does. I think another issue - something I have seen in other air show videos too - is that the air boss is sometimes far too verbose. I haven't flown air shows so maybe it's an accepted thing, but in normal pilotage, comms are supposed to be short and concise for a reason. Adding words always creates the opportunity for confusion, and it also takes up valuable time. If you listen to the Blue Angels comms, often in two or three words the pilots know what to execute. Color commentary like "nice job fighters come on through" is completely non-functional. There was another air show video from a few years ago with one the F-16 demo pilots, the air boss provides a bunch of commentary before clearing the pilot to land, and you could tell the pilot was annoyed with it.
I was about 9 miles from that location. I could hear the planes making their loops, not see the airshow. It was sad to hear the news. In that area or within that area, Ft Worth, DFW, there are so many airports and planes flying around 24/7. I'd see commercial airlines, current military fighters, private planes, old planes,etc every single day just sitting in the back yard.
A reupload? What went wrong with the original upload? This interview was a low point. This photographer is quite full of himself and for anyone interested in facts only wastes your time. The safety during this event was compromised, with people overestimating their abilities something that happens easily in this kind of environment. Separation between aircraft means your life and it's reckless and disrespectful to compromise on security to prioritize photo ops. I'm Swedish, have nothing to do with warbird flying other than in hobby sims but I am absolutely shocked to find out how this event was run.
Find a better airboss, my opinion.
It’s a clip. We always take segments from the two hour show and upload them as clips.
@@themoverandgonkyshow Yes and I've watched this 40 minute clip before with this guy. Safety is not his main concern here obviously. What does 30k airline flight hours have to do with warbird formation flying? Absolutely nothing.
No you didn’t. You may have watched it live as part of the full show or VOD but this is the first time it’s been clipped.
@@themoverandgonkyshow I see, interesting. Because I commented on that clip before and there was a discussion, all the previous comments are gone. So yeah, all that didn't happen then I suppose. Funny how the internet works.
@@33vortex the 30K hours was specifically referring to Craig Hutain, who also had as good as a chunk of airshow flying as anyone, flying with Tora Tora Tora. These weren't simply amateurs and that's why more than superficial analysis about the airboss needs to be considered.
Don't know what to think guys. Definitely from the data, airboss had people crossing flight paths. Sad event. Saw Texas Raiders year before at Peachtree City airshow.
For sure. The fighters to the 500 line absolutely crossed the bombers headed to the 1000' line. I think that the last "exit ramp" from the accident was probably when Gunfighter expressed on the radio that things weren't clear. That should've triggered a deconfliction effort.
7:46 I'm assuming the air boss functions like any other airspace controlling agency, i.e. to maintain the safe separation and movement of aircraft. Priority should be maintaining the safety of flight for traffic within your airspace, not maximizing ride revenue.
When I used to fly, the controllers always made sure everyone had sight of the other aircraft in the pattern. We had to confirm to them that we had visual on the other aircraft. Always without exception. It always surprises me how many professionals have lower personal standards than average or even amateur personnel.
Strictly looking at the overhead view of the tracks when you were taking about the fighters spacing being on point, by that same logic the B-17 looks early out of the bomber formation.
I'm not a pilot, just a military hardware and flight enthusiast. Tragic event that was probably completely avoidable with better planning.
Numerous questions about what fighter lead was responsible for. Interestingly, NTSB only did an on scene interview with him with very little forthcoming. They did some very thorough interviews later with some of the participants. Fighter 2 had some interesting comments about how he didn't like fingertip because he couldn't see the big picture. How can NTSB expect fighter 3 to see the B-17 if he was in a "formation"? Or were they not a formation when they went trail. He would have been looking at fighter 2. Did lead brief a loose tactical type extended trail with wingmen responsible for their own clearing? If I'm your wingman I don't expect you to drag me into a B-17. Dragging me into the top of an alto cu would be okay and fun.
How can you say this air boss did a great job???? Seriously did you listen to the radio communication?? The pilots were clearly asking 2 and 3 times what he wanted them to do!!! This guest seriously does not have a clue!!!
He didn't do a great job on the day of the accident - that's not the argument - but if you were at the previous year's airshow, you might have come to the conclusion that he did do at least a reasonably job for that show. Most of those pilots who flew with him in 2021 were back for 2022...
Look at the 2021 Wings Over Dallas videos for yourself, don't take my word for it:
ruclips.net/video/blNBkDXZSvA/видео.html&pp=ygUWMjAyMSB3aW5ncyBvdmVyIGRhbGxhcw%3D%3D
To me, that begs some questions: What happened that the airboss messed up? Was it just incompetence, or something like a distraction, or other reasons?
The guy who was playing Airboss apparently has a reputation for setting a pretty poor atmosphere with the commemorative Air Force where if you speak up, you will get kicked off. Myself, along with quite a few people on the web here seem to agree that this accident was mainly caused by the Airboss running a chaotic show. edit: i’m kind of a Radio nerd and have been to 30+ air shows with scanner radios to listen in and this commemorative Air Force radio comms was totally weird and sounded just like the chaos it was. Every show I’ve been to there was almost complete radio silence from ground except for coordinating between acts, as it should be
If you read the full report you will see 4 pilots from the Wings over Houston held previously we're not happy with the air boss and his "free form" directions. They did not report that until after the Dallas accident.
One would think there would have been someone one the B17 in back watching. I know when I was involved with flying in either a PBY or an Albatross. My task was to watch the blind spots my pilot could not see whenever we were in formation or just the vicinity of other aircraft. At a 100 knots you just don’t quickly get out of the way. It had priority over entertaining guests.
There were two observers, but...
I don’t know what their procedures were. I was on interphone 100% of the time. Cockpit was sterile. I called out the closure rates. I was always at the waist position. I was happy when we quit doing those flights.
@@voivode2591 Dan Ragan - the navy veteran, was one of the two observers on board.
I wasn’t trying disrespect anyone. It’s a sad situation for everyone involved. I separated myself because of the pride rides associated with operating Warbirds. I was just mentioning the method we used to increase the SA for the PIC in a large aircraft.
@@voivode2591 I liked Mr. Ragan, but trusting an 87 year old for spotting might be a point of concern.
This guest is a joke!! The buck stops with the air boss!!!
Ok, let's look at the logic on that. Assuming you are correct, that the buck stops at the airboss, why were *all* of the pilots willing to work with him?
@ It doesn’t matter if they are willing to work with him he is still ultimately responsible for everyone’s safety. If you look at the FAA release of probable cause he is at the top of the list! The investigation also found he did not conduct a proper pre-show safety briefing . He will be tied up in court with litigation against him for the next twenty years!!!
@puretrouble1603 Right, I can agree with most of that, but from an accident prevention point of view, what were the indications BEFORE the accident day and sequence, that he was unsafe? That's a serious, genuine question.
@@puretrouble1603 It does but the fighters still have to look where they're going. A simple difference in altitude and there is no collision. Poor or no planning beforehand and micro management from the Air Boss.
Yeah, I'm glad to have anymore info to get the best look at all actual pertinent information when finding or attempting to find the cause. This guy just seemed like a hey look at me kind of guy, I just need the info, not a list of all his accolades. He seemed like he just wanted to toot his own horn.
That's twice that he mentioned 'Yellow Gear' which is Ironic: The directive to repaint SE from yellow to white started in 1995. In modern times, the only thing yellow now is Forklifts or the Flight Deck Scrubber... and maybe few engine frame cases for 404 legacy hornets ...😅
Because "yellow gear" is the management term used to reference all Support Equipment (CSE, PSE, etc) to this day. And FDR/CVR "black boxes" are orange, go figure...
@@tehpw7574 it’s still referred to as yellow gear even though they paint it white now
This photographer's dad has a lot of experience giving his opinion on crashes, so he's definitely qualified.
This is on the Air Boss & lack of deconfliction.
So all this guy had to add was they missed practice?
Uh, no, I finished my comments with complacency.
@MetroplexAerials to be fair complacency is a factor in pretty much every accident.
""WE" see the B-17", NO, I see the B-17, my guys see me. Unless you briefed something else and the NTSB hasn't published what you briefed.
he wanted to bring the smaller planes to the 500ft line, I get that. What I don't get and what stops this accident from happening is why did the fighters have to cut in front of the bomber. Yet to hear anyone talk about that.
Because he directed them to be first. How else do they get in front?
@@themoverandgonkyshow Why do they have to be in front ? What they should be is 500ft higher than the bombers and there is no collision.
If this guy is a friend of the air boss, he should STFU. Everything he said doesn’t bode well for the airboss if he is sued in the civil court. Now as said by others, this dude is NOT an airshow pilot, NOT a formation’s pilot, he cannot know how the pilots behave in close formation, in an air show. I fly high performance aircraft but I am the first one to say I know nothing about formation flying in an airshow. I take everything he said as hearsay and opinions, and most flawed as well
I'm not apologizing for the airboss' failures. Also, I have flown formation and have flown in airshows, but that's not the point. The point is that if we think we're that good, we might miss critical things.
@@MetroplexAerials But You're NOT formation rated are you! Oh, and you flew in TWO airshows! Wow!
@@joncox9719 I see you prefer ad hominem over substance. Noted.
People that wanted flying cars decades ago don't appreciate the carnage we would have seen. I hope the imminent air taxi industry gets it right. Some will invoke 'AI' as if it's a magic word when that's really just a software algorithm dependent on programming and complex integration of sensor data.
Even when driving a car on an unfamiliar route, getting too many instructions just overloads the system, because you are dealing with traffic, speed, maybe other distractions on board, and, as you mentioned, in a 80 year old aircraft, with old instruments, noise from engines and props, trying to maintain a 3d pattern in your head ( like a professional ATC!), too many words, AND, instructions in your headset, for other aircraft...
Anyone who listened to that airboss could not escape the conclusion this show was completely unprofessional.
The reason why FAA recommendations have to he made is insurance and legal liability. Airports and promoters will not be able to afford the payouts when self regulation fails, as it has here.
There's knot enough nots
The implication that an FAA rep would be inherently more qualified or on point than the members of the show is the kind of backwards red tape that kills airshows.
I mean the members of the show got people killed
Absolutely, the one thing to keep in mind about the FAA is, if you can't make it in the REAL world of Aviation, you get a job with the FAA! Never been a truer statement! Yes, there are a FEW exceptions, but very few! After 43 years in Aviation, I could tell you horror stories about how unqualified and clueless most FAA employee's really are! Just another Government career/retirement chaser! I could start with the Woman currently head the FAA! ZERO Aviation experience before being appointed/anointed!
Smart changing the thumbnail. Don't know what you were thinking making the thumbnail a picture of people at the moment of death...
“I think the ride stuff is fairly new, and most of the shows like Wings Over Houston don’t do that. Dallas is a fairly unique airshow in that regards.”
Nonsense. Airshows have been doing rides as long as airshows have existed. EAA does rides in the Ford Trimotor every single year.
Hey gonk, I love ya man but your talking out your ass on trying to compare chemical addiction to a phone app…. I think you’d be hard pressed to get physically and mentally fcked for weeks on end..
Isn't the pilot of a fast-moving aircraft kind of responsible for themself in a situation like this? The Kingcobra pilot really should have been aware of his surroundings kind of like a driver of a 60s era muscle car passing a semi truck on the road would be for his/hers. He is ultimately in charge of where the plane goes and therefore seems to me to be responsible for the majority of the blame for this tragedy. This is coming from a high time pilot with an uninformed opinion...😑
Usually there is a TFR during an airshow. Curious why the steer man showed up during a scheduled airshow anyways. I would have said go somewhere else. Either way I can’t even fault the air boss . The pilot knew better.
It was planned. Not random.
The Stearman is owned by CAF, the organization running the show. It was giving rides to make money for CAF.
Oh, you can definitely 'fault' the Air Boss. Maybe "Tainted Cherub" would be a better callsign ... 🤣 (Juz jk'n)
@@slartybarfastb3648Shouldn't have been flying during the airshow. A dangerous distraction.
@@slartybarfastb3648 Just doing it during the airshow is ridiculous.
The pilot of the P-63 was a scab. So there is that.