Juan Browne called it last year. It was a seat-of-their-pants, uncoordinated chaos-style air boss chosen for political and tradition reasons rather than competency. When there's inadequate planning and/or coordination in an airshow, it's imperative aircrews do not participate in such a hazardous activity.
I was a USAF controller that separated in 2021, I worked multiple airshows at KHMN and every time the airboss just exuded "I'm a hotshit controller I can do whatever I want" He would regularly allow 30+ aircraft to takeoff into Holloman Approaches laterally limited airspace just prior to when he would relinquish control of the class delta. No sequencing, no separation, no clearance, basically just say well its your guys problem now! Put a bad taste in my mouth for the profession and airshows in general.
I was stationed at HMN from 1989-1993. That place was insanely busy back then. The day I arrived there I stopped in to the control tower and was watching operations and thinking to myself, holy shit what the hell did I get myself into this time! We had two wings, one flying AT38's and the other flying F15's. AT the time I set the record for the fastest certification, fully certified and assigned as a crew chief in 4 weeks. I spent a year in the tower then went to the RAPCON and eventually took over as the chief of training. While I hated New Mexico, I thought is was a great place to be a controller, very challenging to say the least! I never got to work in the "new" control tower, it wasn't;'t finished until a month after I left.
@barrygunning4424 it was still very busy when I showed up in 2016, F16s, MQ1/9, Tornados, Army Air, great mix of traffic great volume of traffic in a complex setting. I worked at the tower and RAPCON, loved them both and loved being a watch sup at Holloman. Great place to breed great controllers.
As a former military air traffic controller this is horrible to listen to. I don’t know whose idea it was to coordinate a 7 aircraft formation from individual call signs, all manoeuvring in the same block at low level but that should never have been allowed to happen. People stepping on each other’s transmissions, the air boss giving consecutive instructions to different aircraft without pausing for an acknowledgement. Just terrible.
100%. alec baldwinesque. you can never shoot someone with a gun you checked is clear. he took someone elses word (amongst some terrifying actions of the quarter master and crew on set) that it was safed. please good sirs, never trust anyone but you and question that with abundant caution, to not get you killed.
I am a Colonel in the CAF Houston wing. Many of the people that tragically lost their lives in this accident were very close friends of the wing. I personally knew several of them. And those aircraft had lots of history with our wing.Both Texas Raiders and The P-63 were worked on and loved by our members. I still remember that day. My greatest condolences goes out to the families who lost loved ones. Blue skies and tailwinds.
I'm no expert, I was raised in a world of sport flying in and out of uncontrolled airports, but I'm surprised to hear so little being said about the seemingly negligent incompetence of the AirBoss Russell Royce. It seems like he ignored fundamentally obvious safety measures and that he doesn't know how to give quick, concise and consistent commands over the radio ultimately confusing everyone. It sounded like they handed someone in the crowd the radio and said have fun. For this to happen required negligence and for Russell to go without consequence seems like even more negligence.
Mover you nailed it when you said everyone sat in the brief and nobody raised a hand. Its all good to weigh in on the air boss but everyone had the chance in the brief to brief to comment, apparently nobody bid. Very sad..great rundown and always a great video. PS glad your liking the787! Such a great aeroplane..and yep its got a HUD!
I was literally reading a comment a couple of hours ago from a pilot a that had refused to fly at that airshow for many years because that airboss refused to take suggestions or criticism during the debriefing and anybody commenting were put down. That "airboss" should face charges. He made stuff up on the fly. Original comments were from YT Blancolirio site.
must be a lot of pressure to perform (have-to-do-it-for-the-fans syndrome), it was a major airshow, and you might not want to be the guy who canceled the performance by putting their foot down for safety reasons
Blanco covered this quite well too, incompetent air boss (nepotism and inexperienced) combined with complacency on pilots part/pressure to perform. I also understand the preplan/briefing was poor but folks kept their mouths shut, including a FAA observer. I think everyone assumed people knew what they were doing…assumptions kill. Such a preventable tragedy.
We have an old saying in the British Army. Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups. Case in point. Blue skies to all those lost and my sincere love and best wishes to those they left behind
Humans tend to default to "prove that it isn't safe or I'm doing it" rather than the smarter choice, "prove that it is safe or I'm not." Unless there's actual hard evidence that an action *will* result in disaster, we tend to assume disaster won't happen to us even if we do something dangerous. No one proved to the people in that room that there would be a crash that day, so they all just figured it would be fine. This tendency has caused innumerable accidents in aviation, from Tenerife to the 737 MAX, not to mention countless misfortunes outside of aviation. It's that one part of our lizard brain that we have the hardest time trying to completely overcome even with exhaustive training and experience. NASA had 3 decades of spaceflight experience and focus on training and safety when it decided to launch Challenger because no one had definitively proved the second O-ring would suffer burn-through and destroy the Shuttle. Then after 17 more years of spaceflight experience and focus on training and safety including lessons learned from Challenger, they launched Columbia despite knowing the external tank was pelting shuttles with insulation during ascent. If *NASA* has a hard time maintaining a proper safety mindset, it suggests we need to be exhaustively vigilant when doing things that involve deadly forces, but somehow we compartmentalize it. "That happened to NASA, I'm not flying a Shuttle, I'll be fine." Even this disaster will be distilled in many minds as "well I'm not flying a B17 near a P63 in Texas, so those lessons don't apply to me."
What I have heard is that pilots who would raise concerns during preflight would be kicked out of the group. These pilots were conditioned to stay silent. Bizarre
tbh that has nothing to do with it imo, yes they wouldnt be put in this position potentially if that plane wasnt there. But near me during some flights there is a UH-1 that does flights during the show with no problem. this has to do with poor planning and execution more so than the plane being in the way.
You pretty much called it right out of the gate in your initial coverage of the incident. Very unfortunate because it's not like we have alot of time left with these old warbirds anyway and very sad for the families of the victims.
Not really - initially mover blamed it on the p63 pilot for being out of position or getting lost. Everyone actually was where they were supposed to be - air boss and plan were just bad.
@@ShaunHensley The main concentration of aircraft was centred on the airfield however. Otherwise the collision would have occurred miles away. They were lucky it didn't come down on that local freeway.
I've seen at least 10 other analysis of this at various points including after the final report video was released, but seriously yours is the best I've seen so far. You've made a number of points that I feel the others missed (earlier decision needed, unclear/conflicting instructions/etc.). Thanks as always!!
On that day, I was building a firepit and patio on our property which is about 12 miles south of the airfield. The B-17 had flown over me twice and I stopped work each time to watch because it was so damn cool. To think just a couple of minutes after seeing the 2nd pass those guys would be gone.
Not long after the event, on Hoover's channel (Pilot Debrief) he notes that the Air Boss was part of an "airshow family business" and the Air Boss and his dad prided themselves on making it up as they go along. "We run airshows we know what we're doing."
One of the good crash shows, can't remember which one, reported that during the brief there was an attitude of fear, that the guys running the show were known tyrants and no one dared question them, not even the FAA guy present, for fear of not being allowed to do the show anymore. He made quite a strong case about the air boss totally owning this.
"Oh, you don't want to do this? There are folks lined up who would kill for your seat" from the powers that be is a powerful way of quelling dissent in these dream-come-true jobs.
I agree that accidents can happen...but this involved a level of negligence that should have had criminal charges attached to it, for the "Air Boss" especially. I have been to many a CAF airshow, this one actually had fewer planes in the air than many I have seen. As an Air Force veteran, I understand why there are so many rules, guidelines, processes, and procedures in regard to the safe operation of aircraft. In the Air Force I was taught early on that "There are 2 things that know no stripes, safety and security." It does not matter what rank you are, or what rank they are, if you see a problem with either of those 2 things, stop and ask questions. That idea saved my butt many times. Great job on the breakdown.
"There are two things that know no stripes: safety and security". An excellent way of putting it, and the right way round too. We had a bad accident with multiple fatalities at an air show at Shoreham here in the UK, in 2015. A Hawker Hunter (quite a hot jet for the civil register, especially in our crowded airspace) being flown by an experienced pilot who got too low and couldn't avoid impacting the ground. It killed a lot of people on the ground outside the airfield (on a busy road). The pilot survived somehow. The reported cause was pilot error, but the investigation brought out all manner of other problems. What was quite telling was the the RAF's Red Arrows display team had been invited to contribute to the display, but had declined on safety grounds after conducting their own survey of the airfield and surroundings. That should have been a red flag for the organisers, but wasn't. Air show flying display direction at Shoreham was also found to have been inadequate in the previous year; the same aircraft had been flown beyond permitted limits, yet the pilot was not instructed to discontinue their display. The same pilot in a different aircraft at another air show had got too low, and had been directed to terminate his display. But there was no CAA standards officer at that display, so I presume this previous error never got considered. The pilot for the Shoreham Air Show crash was found to have made an error, but there had been ample opportunities not taken by others for the trends in the pilot's performance to be properly considered and addressed prior to Shoreham. The criminal case against the pilot resulted in acquittal - very distressing for the families of the victims - but probably that was the right finding. A conviction would have been pinning all the blame on the pilot, when there were plenty of failings elsewhere in the CAA, the air show organisers, the display direction and organisation, etc. It lead to a large re-think about air show safety, and perhaps some sort of admission that things had been allowed to get lax. It was all the usual Swiss Cheese failings, tiny little things that all added up with fatal consequences. The only good thing to come out of it was that the primacy, independence and sovereignty of the Air Accident Investigation Branch of the CAA in investigating aircraft-related incidents was preserved. Their final report was upheld as being complete, and their right to withhold raw data from the court / legal process was preserved. The reason this was a good thing is because it was felt that had it gone the other way - as the Coroner's court tried to enforce - witnesses in future investigations would be less-inclined to speak to the AAIB if it came with the risk of self-incrimination. So yes, the Air Boss in Dallas made significant errors, but as with Shoreham there seems to have been several layers of Swiss Cheese that all needed to be aligned, just as in Shoreham. One important lesson I guess is that what you were taught in the air force about stripes, safety and security should be standard practice in the civil aviation / civil air show world too. It'd maybe be easier to do so if terms like "Air *Boss*" were not used, as the suggestion of "control and authority" could cause confusion as to where responsibilities lie.
"there are two things that know no stripes - safety and security" You just explained to me WHY I've always loved working in security. I didn't realize it until now, but that's a huge part of why. :) As it happens, I have also earned a reputation for actually knowing what I'm talking about regarding security, so I tell anyone in the company "no" and they'll listen. 😊
They had 2 show lines, 500 foot and 1000 foot for geographical separation. The 2nd to last pass, the Bombers are on the 500 foot line (closest to the crowd) fighters on the 1000 foot line. As they are coming in for the final pass, he has the fighters, go to the 500 foot line and the bombers to the 1000 foot line leading them right into each other.
This was such a tragedy. The only positive is that the accident happened so quickly, I don’t think anyone involved had enough time to understand what happened.
Mover, thanks for your thoughtful coverage. So difficult to watch this, lost my best friend that day. All we can hope is that the culture and practices continue to change and improve to prevent anything like this from ever happening again. Best from Texas.
As Juan Browne mentioned last year, the use of “non-standard” language also didn’t help. Spewing out 24 word sentences of instructions to aircraft in flight at 150-400 mph surely didn’t help . Just a tragic loss of irreplaceable humans and historic aircraft. Sad all around. The air shows MUST get their poop in a group, or this amazing history and teaching resource will be forever gone. I was at willow run when the Mig went down last year. By only luck alone, did that aircraft not hit the apartment building in the middle of the apartment complex it crashed in the middle of, after pilot and passenger ejected. One more situation where a kid gets killed, it’ll be curtains for the beloved FAA warbird program. I’ve been going to that air show since I was a child, and that would be a terrible loss for all to lose air shows.
Thanks for putting this together. Let's hope airshow organizers can learn from this. Warbird displays are still great. As this was in 2022, I guess the report on the MiG-23 incident will still take a while?
I like your review of this accident. I was there. On the previous pass they were separated by altitude and the gap was there between the B-17 and the rest of the flight. Good video. Keep up the good work.
This is one accident I just can't stand to watch again. I can barely sit through the debrief. I don't have any words for how I feel about that airboss.
@@andrewwaller5913 im not arguing that, im simply stating what numerous pilots have said, including some personal friends of mine who have time in the P-63.
"Brief the flight, fly the brief." Always a post flight "Hotwash" every time and with discussion without regard to rank, experience, ability, or politics. SAFETY First should be and always is Rule #1. As C.W. stated, "What's better? Looking good or NOT dying?" Thanks much for your discussion on this incident. I always learn much from your input. - Frosty
In just speaking about the B17 and the pilots that knew were going into the soup, some of the WILD stories of WWII and crews of B17s is not talked about enough. This situation is insane, its like WTF?
This Air Boss was accident waiting to happen, unfortunately his luck ran out and it cost several lives and 2 rare war birds. As bad as this was, at least no one on the ground was hurt. The way this Air Boss ran the shows, he put the spectators and the nearby population at an unacceptable risk.
Always love the content - You as a NavyAF flyer know these rules...Not sure if the flyers were "TRAINED" by the Military, to know about altitude "BLOCKS". It is great information, but not sure it carried down the the Civilian flyers. I agree - great tragedy. Watched tons of airshows as a kid...witnessed F18 crash at El Toro years earlier...Flying is dangerous, but great job on the analysis.
From what I remember of this, there was NO altitude deconfliction at all that was briefed. Just perhaps some lateral separation planned between the fighter and bomber groups and those went RIGHT out the window when this air boss decided to have aircraft groups cross in front or behind each other with their flight paths. That was the bad no no. I hope that "air boss" never gets put in charge of flight coordination ever again, no.
I was there, heard the crash, and saw the inferno moments after it happened (we were closer to the crash site in the private aviation hanger area). Good write up on what went wrong. Really sad day for everyone involved.
I remember back in the late 70s as a cadet in CAP at Rickenbacker given a tour of Gunfighter by Col Urschler not long after he acquired it. It's great to see her still flying!
Based on this review and that of your show with Gonky last night, you really need to look at the Wings over Houston coverage that happened a month before Dallas and also read the preliminary NTSB report on the Dallas show in order to comment on how wise it was. At Houston they were flying head to head ‘merges’ at 300-500ft with pyrotechnics pass after pass after pass and it was truly spectacular. It was the most astonishing display I had ever seen. I think I also saw a B29 super-fortress take off whilst the action was going on - amazing but looked chaotic, whether it was controlled chaos is the question? 😎😇
I also wonder if the Airboss had specifically asked if the b-17 had sight of the 3 fighters to the left instead of just saying fighters to the left if this could have helped avoid this accident.
Hey Mover, As far as I recall the Air Boss was the son of a former Air Boss and his reputation wasn't the best. That Show event was poorly planned and the call outs were unclear. The participating crews should have stepped up and say "no" . A lot of good people lost their lifes that day. People who loved aviation and those war birds so much. It was probably more important to them to perform the flying display than quitting the show even though the pre briefing wasn't as professional as it should have been. I don't blame them. God bless their souls
I think you hit the nail on the head. Everyone blames the airboss, but exactly everyone sat on that briefing and was fine with this. Safety is everyone's responsibility after all.
Agreed. Possibly the term "Air Boss" isn't such a good idea? To my ears it comes loaded with someone being in total control of what's going to happen, which is probably an inappropriate thing?
@@abarratt8869 I mean, that's what it's supposed to mean, because you likely still need someone to synchronize things. But it should be more like a conductor of an orchestra. They don't come up with the notes on the spot, everyone has their sheet, it's rehearsed, everyone knows what to do up front and conductor just gives timing and makes sure everyone is hitting their beats.
The P39 and P63 had a ton of complaints by pilots when they came out in WWII that pilot visibility was terrible due to the car door style cockpit. Literally had a door to get in the airplane. Big thick pillars in the way of everything. The Russians loved the aircraft because of how the employed the plane but also said visibility was horrible
I remember that day and all the feels that hit me at once. I posted something similar on the first video on the channel about this accident. My father was a B-17 pilot in the 385th BG at Great Ashfield, UK. I felt sad for him, though he was gone. He had such a love for the plane that brought him and his men home 36 times, often shot to hell. I felt sad for the crews on those two planes and all the pilots up there at the time of that tragedy that witnessed it, but mostly I felt for the loved ones and friends left behind, still do. People are not supposed to perished in these planes now. His biggest pucker moments were while forming up around their buncher in "the soup". Mid--air collisions were always a fear at this time. An orange flash in their grey world usually meant 20 guys just died without ever leaving England. I hope a safer way can be found because I love seeing these planes in the sky where they're meant to be!
When you put a lot of aircraft in a small space, especially when there are different types of aircraft operating at different speeds, it is a statistical certainty that there will be collisions. The only question is at what rate.
Good review, especially the visibility issues from each plane. To my untrained eye it looks like the fighters didnt follow the vertical separation, the plan had no geometric separation and the airboss didnt give enough room for the turn.
CAF's mission is to use the warbirds to generate salaries and flying opportunities for their staff until they run out of flyable aircraft. Once all available warbirds are crashed or scrapped, they'll shut it all down and go find something else to "preserve". Once had a CAF guy tell me (with a straight face) "If it ain't flying, it's a boulder. Better a crater than a boulder."
The P-63 is notorious for its limited visibility. Also, even though it had nothing to do with the accident, the revenue ride should not have been operating in the area. It's just another potential hazard that the air boss and the performers didn't need to keep in mind.
Seems see and be seen was out the window. The fighter pilot was too old and flying behind the power curve. Descents and turns at those speeds and that weight along with age can cause a lot of slippage. I was a amphib pilot in the oilfield flying throughout the basin between tall cypress trees, boats, logs and into freaky weather which I would never try again at 77. Yep once you loose sight at that speed?
Formation flying + poor sightline cockpits = bad time. I always think of the loss of Carl Cross and Joe Walker in the XB-70/F-104 GE photoshoot incident. Al White the lead test pilot on the XB-70 program barely survived the crash.
I don't think any of the blame can be attributed to the P-63 visibility. For a WWII fighter, that was one area that it excelled at. The cockpit is ahead of the wing, the nose is thin and has more of a downward slope for better forward visibility than if there was an engine up front, and there's no heat effect coming from the exhaust that blurs your sight when you're looking at anything directly behind the exhaust stack in a conventional engine arrangement. The attitude the P-63 was in would have the B-17 in a blind spot regardless of the aircraft, you wouldn't see it in an F-16 or F-18. Maybe in the F-35 with that look-through helmet or an aerobatic plane with windows on the belly, but for the most part that B-17 was right between his knees which is a blind spot for virtually all aircraft. You never join another aircraft or turn inside another aircraft in a formation belly up for that reason. It was the airboss' fault for pressuring and getting them into that situation, but the P-63 pilot should have recognized that there would be an issue by turning inside of the bombers. Just a quick roll out to maintain situational awareness under that belly before resuming that turn might have prevented it all, but he was too pressured into catching up for that to happen.
Thanks for this video. Yes everybody sat in the briefing and seemingly did not speak up, but ultimately the Air Boss is in charge, and the CAF is responsible for who the Air Boss is and they sure seemed to screw that pooch. Knowing the lack of proper planning here the radio calls are so awful and frustrating to listen to. Just seen too many pilots killed with sloppy formation work/lack of planning.
The air boss told the fighters to be in echelon formation initially. So when the air boss told the fighters to go in trail, I took that to madness for the fighters to go in trail to themselves not in relation to the bombers.
I do not know how pilots are chosen for these flights, but the air boss must have had some influence over pilot participation in the air show to humble so many pilots with his bull shit. Apparently the briefing was a joke and no questions were allowed. "if you want to fly these war birds you do not rock the boat"must be in play
Just goes to show how hard it is for humans to adequately make good decisions. On the assumption that they all knew "this is sketchy" in the briefing, they put flying in an air show ahead of avoiding a crash. That's just not rational. Rules and procedures may seem dreary and restrictive, but we're far better off with them and following them properly. I'm an engineer, and I teach other engineers about the limitations on their freedom from responsibility. One day you might get asked to do / build / write / design / authorise something dangerous by your boss. That's never a good day, but the only thing one can do if the boss insists despite objections is to report the situation to an appropriate authority (e.g. gov regulator), preserve the evidence of one having done that most thoroughly (e.g. print emails and lodge them with a lawyer), and walk away. One cannot always stop a bad situation turning into a disaster, but one has to look after one's own conscience and liberty.
Not a single pilot called knock it off due to the utter chaos! I flew formation in one small Airshow. The air boss cleared us to come in for our week long rehearsed display, and not one word was spoken by him until we finished and WE called “display complete”.
Thete is another plausible explanation. When looking at the tracks and transmissions, it is possible that the mishap fighter pilot saw one of the B-25s to the right aft when he dipped his wing, thought he was clear and didnt realize the B-17 was there because radio transmissions indicated the fighters were in front of the B-17. This confirmed the MPs perception when he saw bomber sircraft behind him.
Mover it makes even more sense and not in a good way when you learn he only got the job because his dad did it. And if you’re wondering, no the nut didn’t fall far from the tree at all. Great job as always, thanks for the video!!
does it matter the mixing of the P-51s with the P-63? Seems like the P-63 got gapped from the P-51s coming out of that turn. Had the P-63 kept up, perhaps different outcome?
Definitely it was the air boss fault he wanted the bombers and fighters to switch flying lanes, which cause confusion between the pilots. In which cause the pilot of the p63 pilot to fall behind so he increased speed to catch up to the rest of the fighters to get in position. Which cause the collision with the b17.
I have stood on the banks of Lake Michigan next to the air traffic controller who was controlling the planes in the Chicago air show. The sheer quantity of planes he was dealing with, their different characteristics, the way he had them stacked in lots of holding stacks, and the way he was able to schedule them to come in low over the shoreline despite their different speeds etc. I was impressed that he was able to pull it off. But it cannot be without its risks, so many things could go wrong, and so much was in that one controllers head that if he took ill or whatever I really don’t know what would have happened.
Aerobatic guys don’t choreograph on the fly. Its planned before they even get in the plane. You see them practicing the pattern so their body does it innately.
I've always thought it especially tragic because all the causes that lead to this collision have already been identified and mitigated through planning rules many years before. This really is an example where we're not learning anything new from this crash, we're just learning that complacency remains a threat and the known risks do need to be mitigated. Truly tragic that so many lives were lost, and so many other lives so negatively affected, all to learn such a small lesson. This sort of loss of life is never worth it, but at least we sometimes learn something new that goes on to protect thousands of others into the future. When such a huge cost paid gives us so little in return it feels even more profoundly pointless a trade.
I've actually had a chance to spend an hour or checking out this particular B17. It was parked at a local airport waiting to do rides for funding rides.
The Air Boss is ultimately at fault ! But then again all those experienced pilots and crew members should've spoken up well beforehand and said this isn't safe let's reevaluate the scenario. Accidents are caused by a multitude of mishaps and errors in judgement, not just a single mistake.
Proper planning predicts perfect performance. I'd warrant they relied on visual and airboss. Easy habit. Even the Thunderbirds had a mishap when there was normalization of deviance and assumption of safety. Safety is a culture that everyone has to adhere to and everyone is responsible for.
I remember listening to this when it happened and thinking the main cause of the accident was the air boss. Not even close. Such poor management of those aircraft. He had a reputation, too.
It's really sad. The only good thing is that nobody else was injured or killed. I go to the Sun N Fun Aerospace Expo every year, and most of the time, we get to meet the performers. So, when their flying, it's not some anonymous someone that you're watching but a face and a personality you can put with the show. Imagine meeting the person and a while later watching them die in a crash like this. I'm sure for those on the ground, it had to be jarring to see that happen. A lot of performers/pilots are there year after year and are a part of that air show's tradition. So they become a household name in those cities.
The fighters and bombers had different lines to fly (horizontal separation). The air boss on a whim did something that was not briefed and decided to swap the fighter and bombers to a different line. This swapping lines that was not planned for resulted in a collision. The air boss cause this. The fighters and bombers had different lines for a very good reason. The air boss was very new and I think this was his first event.
Ive been going to airshows for 40 yrs, and Never have seen a show, where they had the aircraft bunched up coming in on final, they wouldn't run the fighters on join up , on a display run, unless the bombers were on downwind, always kept them away from each other, I attended @ Chino airfeild, planes of fame, always professionally Run, They had spotters to help the Air Boss, Hence 6 sets of eyes.
CAF has rebranded the show as “Aviation Discovery Fest” rather than “Wings Over Dallas.” I hope they’ve changed more than just the name. Reputation management should not be the number one concern.
been looking forward to your response since this accident. not a pilot, but just logically thinking, wouldnt a good plan to have been kept the bombers at 2,000 ft outboard of the fighters on approach to the runway line and the fighters at 1,000 ft in the lead. that way the fighters would be able to look out their left wing to see where the bombers are and the bombers would just have to look off their nose to see the fighters. the maneuver that happened for it to be successfull would require the bombers to have multiple observers inside the aircraft to keep a constant LOS on the fighters. the whole accident just makes me sick. it was unnecessary and baring mechanical failures which are always hard to predict, it shouldn't have happened.
I'm lucky enough to fly warbirds myself and this was very sad to hear about and see I knew the crew of the b17 g I don't understand why there wasn't a pre show or airshow briefing before the display
B-17 couldn't go right further. Separation line keeping aircraft from flying over crowds. It's why he turned straight when he did. Even if they had someone looking out the top turret to spot... I don't think they could have gotten out of the way in time.
What confuse me is that there are a lot of former air show pilots, military pilots, flying these airplanes and why they didn’t speak out of the danger ahead of time
Unusual question, but do airbosses not have access to the type of info thats being displayed in this video? Like are they on the ground just watching on and calling on the fly? Or are they using live data fed to monitors like this video?
Why are we saying the P-63 could not see the B-17. If they are calling the fighters a formation he would be looking at #2. Lead said "we see him" but it wasn't "we" it was "I". The wingman were flying off lead and he took the flight into the path of the B-17. But was it a trail formation or some tactical type extended trail where they might also clear themselves? NTSB didn't ask lead what was briefed and the docket only shows a prelim interview with lead. NTSB did some very detailed followup interviews with a most of the personnel but I don't see one with fighter lead.
I’m no expert, just an armchair aviation enthusiast. But, listening to the air boss call the maneuvers makes it pretty clear they had no plan and he was making it up as they went. I would think every turn, altitude and crowd pass should be understood before take off so there’s no confusion in the air. You just follow the script and the air boss should only have to call the timing and make sure people are following the script, not writing it in real time. I agree that it wasn’t just him at fault though. Everyone else went along with it. Just seems like a culture of complaisance that allowed bad behavior to go uncorrected.
Both aircraft involved were built during World War II, though neither saw combat. 'Texas Raiders', B-17G-95-DL 44-83872, was built in July 1945, in California. It was given to the US Army Air Corps. Days later, the Army handed her over to the US Navy. With the war in Europe concluded, the need of B-17 bombers was gone, and it was converted into a PB-1W, a long-range patrol aircraft, an early form of AWACs. For ten years she patrolled the coasts of the United States. In 1955, she was retired from the military. In 1957 she was purchased by the Aero Service Corporation, conducting land surveys in remote regions of North and South America. The Confederate Air Force purchased 'Texas Raiders' in 1967, who converted her back to World War II specifications. The P-63 was a built in 1943 for the Army Air Corps. Her original serial number was 43-11719. An F variant, where only two of this type was ever built. Given a larger vertical tail and a Allison V-1710-135 engine at 1,500 horsepower, its purpose was to test, and fix, the many problems faced by Airacobras in high-altitude flights and combat. Such problems are never rectified. By the end of the war, this P-63 only possessed 24.1 flight hours. In 1946, the F model was sold off to a private buyer, who converted her into a racer. In 1981, the Confederate Air Force purchased and converted her back to her original US Air Corps specifications, though there are also photos of her painted to resemble a P-63 in the Soviet Air Force in the mid-eighties, as part of the historical Lend-Lease Act.
Same, I lived in Addison and would often eat at the sonic by the airport and watch the p-63 land. I’ve been inside Texas raiders many times…. The lives loss are more important but the aircraft were very personal losses for me
Juan Browne called it last year. It was a seat-of-their-pants, uncoordinated chaos-style air boss chosen for political and tradition reasons rather than competency. When there's inadequate planning and/or coordination in an airshow, it's imperative aircrews do not participate in such a hazardous activity.
"air boss chosen for political and tradition reasons "
can you expand on that? I am unaware of that
@@phalcon23son of the previous Air Boss. Chosen based on that fact rather than any solid qualifications or experience
I heard from others that airboss was rather risky in planning and live orders. To the point some pilots wouldn't fly with him in charge.
@@phalcon23Son of another airboss. No experience. Chaos and 6 deaths are the result.
@@DreamyBongos Unfortunately, two pilots did fly with him in charge and paid with their lives for it.
I was a USAF controller that separated in 2021, I worked multiple airshows at KHMN and every time the airboss just exuded "I'm a hotshit controller I can do whatever I want" He would regularly allow 30+ aircraft to takeoff into Holloman Approaches laterally limited airspace just prior to when he would relinquish control of the class delta. No sequencing, no separation, no clearance, basically just say well its your guys problem now! Put a bad taste in my mouth for the profession and airshows in general.
I was stationed at HMN from 1989-1993. That place was insanely busy back then. The day I arrived there I stopped in to the control tower and was watching operations and thinking to myself, holy shit what the hell did I get myself into this time! We had two wings, one flying AT38's and the other flying F15's. AT the time I set the record for the fastest certification, fully certified and assigned as a crew chief in 4 weeks. I spent a year in the tower then went to the RAPCON and eventually took over as the chief of training. While I hated New Mexico, I thought is was a great place to be a controller, very challenging to say the least! I never got to work in the "new" control tower, it wasn't;'t finished until a month after I left.
@barrygunning4424 it was still very busy when I showed up in 2016, F16s, MQ1/9, Tornados, Army Air, great mix of traffic great volume of traffic in a complex setting. I worked at the tower and RAPCON, loved them both and loved being a watch sup at Holloman. Great place to breed great controllers.
One guy trying to co-ordinate that many aircraft with no altitude separation is insane. Not safe for pilots or spectators.
Was in Airport Ops at an airport where this "Air Boss" operated. He had this attitude then too.
_Oh, say it’s not so._
As a former military air traffic controller this is horrible to listen to. I don’t know whose idea it was to coordinate a 7 aircraft formation from individual call signs, all manoeuvring in the same block at low level but that should never have been allowed to happen. People stepping on each other’s transmissions, the air boss giving consecutive instructions to different aircraft without pausing for an acknowledgement. Just terrible.
I call it gross negligence.
requesting a blind turn to pass a separate group with no altitude separation. This was lethal from the start.
yes. that's nuts
100%. alec baldwinesque. you can never shoot someone with a gun you checked is clear. he took someone elses word (amongst some terrifying actions of the quarter master and crew on set) that it was safed. please good sirs, never trust anyone but you and question that with abundant caution, to not get you killed.
I am a Colonel in the CAF Houston wing. Many of the people that tragically lost their lives in this accident were very close friends of the wing. I personally knew several of them. And those aircraft had lots of history with our wing.Both Texas Raiders and The P-63 were worked on and loved by our members. I still remember that day. My greatest condolences goes out to the families who lost loved ones. Blue skies and tailwinds.
I'm no expert, I was raised in a world of sport flying in and out of uncontrolled airports, but I'm surprised to hear so little being said about the seemingly negligent incompetence of the AirBoss Russell Royce. It seems like he ignored fundamentally obvious safety measures and that he doesn't know how to give quick, concise and consistent commands over the radio ultimately confusing everyone. It sounded like they handed someone in the crowd the radio and said have fun. For this to happen required negligence and for Russell to go without consequence seems like even more negligence.
Mover you nailed it when you said everyone sat in the brief and nobody raised a hand. Its all good to weigh in on the air boss but everyone had the chance in the brief to brief to comment, apparently nobody bid.
Very sad..great rundown and always a great video.
PS glad your liking the787! Such a great aeroplane..and yep its got a HUD!
I was literally reading a comment a couple of hours ago from a pilot a that had refused to fly at that airshow for many years because that airboss refused to take suggestions or criticism during the debriefing and anybody commenting were put down. That "airboss" should face charges. He made stuff up on the fly.
Original comments were from YT Blancolirio site.
Group think and peer pressure. “The show must go on!”
And during the show, the Air Boss started changing from the original plan!
must be a lot of pressure to perform (have-to-do-it-for-the-fans syndrome), it was a major airshow, and you might not want to be the guy who canceled the performance by putting their foot down for safety reasons
No one ever says no.
Blanco covered this quite well too, incompetent air boss (nepotism and inexperienced) combined with complacency on pilots part/pressure to perform. I also understand the preplan/briefing was poor but folks kept their mouths shut, including a FAA observer. I think everyone assumed people knew what they were doing…assumptions kill.
Such a preventable tragedy.
We have an old saying in the British Army. Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.
Case in point. Blue skies to all those lost and my sincere love and best wishes to those they left behind
Humans tend to default to "prove that it isn't safe or I'm doing it" rather than the smarter choice, "prove that it is safe or I'm not." Unless there's actual hard evidence that an action *will* result in disaster, we tend to assume disaster won't happen to us even if we do something dangerous. No one proved to the people in that room that there would be a crash that day, so they all just figured it would be fine.
This tendency has caused innumerable accidents in aviation, from Tenerife to the 737 MAX, not to mention countless misfortunes outside of aviation. It's that one part of our lizard brain that we have the hardest time trying to completely overcome even with exhaustive training and experience.
NASA had 3 decades of spaceflight experience and focus on training and safety when it decided to launch Challenger because no one had definitively proved the second O-ring would suffer burn-through and destroy the Shuttle. Then after 17 more years of spaceflight experience and focus on training and safety including lessons learned from Challenger, they launched Columbia despite knowing the external tank was pelting shuttles with insulation during ascent.
If *NASA* has a hard time maintaining a proper safety mindset, it suggests we need to be exhaustively vigilant when doing things that involve deadly forces, but somehow we compartmentalize it. "That happened to NASA, I'm not flying a Shuttle, I'll be fine." Even this disaster will be distilled in many minds as "well I'm not flying a B17 near a P63 in Texas, so those lessons don't apply to me."
Absolutely.
What I have heard is that pilots who would raise concerns during preflight would be kicked out of the group. These pilots were conditioned to stay silent. Bizarre
The fact that a paid joy flight is active during the airshow display is insane. It's an example lax dangerous rules.
@@TheSound0fLegends Yes, absolutely ridiculous.
The opening day of the airshow (Friday) had rain most of the day. They might have succumbed to pressure to try to make up that lost revenue.
@@rothbj1 Putting money ahead of safety. Unheard of in the UK to have pleasure flights while the airshow is going on, far too dangerous.
@ No argument there, was just one more thing for the overwhelmed air boss to keep up with.
tbh that has nothing to do with it imo, yes they wouldnt be put in this position potentially if that plane wasnt there. But near me during some flights there is a UH-1 that does flights during the show with no problem. this has to do with poor planning and execution more so than the plane being in the way.
You pretty much called it right out of the gate in your initial coverage of the incident. Very unfortunate because it's not like we have alot of time left with these old warbirds anyway and very sad for the families of the victims.
Not really - initially mover blamed it on the p63 pilot for being out of position or getting lost. Everyone actually was where they were supposed to be - air boss and plan were just bad.
Thank you for showing us and telling what happened to cause this tragic mishap, just so sad anyway you look at it, thanks C.W.!
Flying a bunch of planes around in close proximity over towns seems bizarrely lax for this day and age..
@@GeneticDrifter it was over the airfield. Dallas is a big place.
@@andrewwaller5913you can see on the video how much of it takes place over developed areas
@@ShaunHensley The main concentration of aircraft was centred on the airfield however. Otherwise the collision would have occurred miles away. They were lucky it didn't come down on that local freeway.
I've seen at least 10 other analysis of this at various points including after the final report video was released, but seriously yours is the best I've seen so far. You've made a number of points that I feel the others missed (earlier decision needed, unclear/conflicting instructions/etc.). Thanks as always!!
On that day, I was building a firepit and patio on our property which is about 12 miles south of the airfield. The B-17 had flown over me twice and I stopped work each time to watch because it was so damn cool. To think just a couple of minutes after seeing the 2nd pass those guys would be gone.
Not long after the event, on Hoover's channel (Pilot Debrief) he notes that the Air Boss was part of an "airshow family business" and the Air Boss and his dad prided themselves on making it up as they go along. "We run airshows we know what we're doing."
One of the good crash shows, can't remember which one, reported that during the brief there was an attitude of fear, that the guys running the show were known tyrants and no one dared question them, not even the FAA guy present, for fear of not being allowed to do the show anymore. He made quite a strong case about the air boss totally owning this.
"Oh, you don't want to do this? There are folks lined up who would kill for your seat" from the powers that be is a powerful way of quelling dissent in these dream-come-true jobs.
I agree that accidents can happen...but this involved a level of negligence that should have had criminal charges attached to it, for the "Air Boss" especially. I have been to many a CAF airshow, this one actually had fewer planes in the air than many I have seen. As an Air Force veteran, I understand why there are so many rules, guidelines, processes, and procedures in regard to the safe operation of aircraft. In the Air Force I was taught early on that "There are 2 things that know no stripes, safety and security." It does not matter what rank you are, or what rank they are, if you see a problem with either of those 2 things, stop and ask questions. That idea saved my butt many times. Great job on the breakdown.
"There are two things that know no stripes: safety and security". An excellent way of putting it, and the right way round too.
We had a bad accident with multiple fatalities at an air show at Shoreham here in the UK, in 2015. A Hawker Hunter (quite a hot jet for the civil register, especially in our crowded airspace) being flown by an experienced pilot who got too low and couldn't avoid impacting the ground. It killed a lot of people on the ground outside the airfield (on a busy road). The pilot survived somehow.
The reported cause was pilot error, but the investigation brought out all manner of other problems.
What was quite telling was the the RAF's Red Arrows display team had been invited to contribute to the display, but had declined on safety grounds after conducting their own survey of the airfield and surroundings. That should have been a red flag for the organisers, but wasn't.
Air show flying display direction at Shoreham was also found to have been inadequate in the previous year; the same aircraft had been flown beyond permitted limits, yet the pilot was not instructed to discontinue their display.
The same pilot in a different aircraft at another air show had got too low, and had been directed to terminate his display. But there was no CAA standards officer at that display, so I presume this previous error never got considered.
The pilot for the Shoreham Air Show crash was found to have made an error, but there had been ample opportunities not taken by others for the trends in the pilot's performance to be properly considered and addressed prior to Shoreham. The criminal case against the pilot resulted in acquittal - very distressing for the families of the victims - but probably that was the right finding. A conviction would have been pinning all the blame on the pilot, when there were plenty of failings elsewhere in the CAA, the air show organisers, the display direction and organisation, etc.
It lead to a large re-think about air show safety, and perhaps some sort of admission that things had been allowed to get lax. It was all the usual Swiss Cheese failings, tiny little things that all added up with fatal consequences.
The only good thing to come out of it was that the primacy, independence and sovereignty of the Air Accident Investigation Branch of the CAA in investigating aircraft-related incidents was preserved. Their final report was upheld as being complete, and their right to withhold raw data from the court / legal process was preserved. The reason this was a good thing is because it was felt that had it gone the other way - as the Coroner's court tried to enforce - witnesses in future investigations would be less-inclined to speak to the AAIB if it came with the risk of self-incrimination.
So yes, the Air Boss in Dallas made significant errors, but as with Shoreham there seems to have been several layers of Swiss Cheese that all needed to be aligned, just as in Shoreham.
One important lesson I guess is that what you were taught in the air force about stripes, safety and security should be standard practice in the civil aviation / civil air show world too.
It'd maybe be easier to do so if terms like "Air *Boss*" were not used, as the suggestion of "control and authority" could cause confusion as to where responsibilities lie.
"there are two things that know no stripes - safety and security"
You just explained to me WHY I've always loved working in security. I didn't realize it until now, but that's a huge part of why. :)
As it happens, I have also earned a reputation for actually knowing what I'm talking about regarding security, so I tell anyone in the company "no" and they'll listen. 😊
They had 2 show lines, 500 foot and 1000 foot for geographical separation. The 2nd to last pass, the Bombers are on the 500 foot line (closest to the crowd) fighters on the 1000 foot line. As they are coming in for the final pass, he has the fighters, go to the 500 foot line and the bombers to the 1000 foot line leading them right into each other.
This was such a tragedy. The only positive is that the accident happened so quickly, I don’t think anyone involved had enough time to understand what happened.
How is this airboss not guilty of manslaughter, at a minimum?
Texas
Such a terrible accident, I hated seeing it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mover hope all is well and happy new year.
Mover, thanks for your thoughtful coverage. So difficult to watch this, lost my best friend that day. All we can hope is that the culture and practices continue to change and improve to prevent anything like this from ever happening again. Best from Texas.
As Juan Browne mentioned last year, the use of “non-standard” language also didn’t help. Spewing out 24 word sentences of instructions to aircraft in flight at 150-400 mph surely didn’t help . Just a tragic loss of irreplaceable humans and historic aircraft. Sad all around. The air shows MUST get their poop in a group, or this amazing history and teaching resource will be forever gone. I was at willow run when the Mig went down last year. By only luck alone, did that aircraft not hit the apartment building in the middle of the apartment complex it crashed in the middle of, after pilot and passenger ejected. One more situation where a kid gets killed, it’ll be curtains for the beloved FAA warbird program. I’ve been going to that air show since I was a child, and that would be a terrible loss for all to lose air shows.
So sad the watch the full videos. Nickel in the grass for the crews. Good analysis, Mover.
Thanks for putting this together. Let's hope airshow organizers can learn from this. Warbird displays are still great.
As this was in 2022, I guess the report on the MiG-23 incident will still take a while?
It is a such a shame. Thanks for going through and explaining this Mover. Hopefully lessons are learnt from this.
I like your review of this accident. I was there. On the previous pass they were separated by altitude and the gap was there between the B-17 and the rest of the flight. Good video. Keep up the good work.
This is one accident I just can't stand to watch again. I can barely sit through the debrief. I don't have any words for how I feel about that airboss.
the P-63 is notorious for having terrible forward and left and right vision FOV.
@@CapStar362 Which is why it should have been higher up.
@@andrewwaller5913 im not arguing that, im simply stating what numerous pilots have said, including some personal friends of mine who have time in the P-63.
"Brief the flight, fly the brief." Always a post flight "Hotwash" every time and with discussion without regard to rank, experience, ability, or politics. SAFETY First should be and always is Rule #1. As C.W. stated, "What's better? Looking good or NOT dying?" Thanks much for your discussion on this incident. I always learn much from your input. - Frosty
In just speaking about the B17 and the pilots that knew were going into the soup, some of the WILD stories of WWII and crews of B17s is not talked about enough. This situation is insane, its like WTF?
Just watching the animation at the point of conflict was gut wrenching.
This Air Boss was accident waiting to happen, unfortunately his luck ran out and it cost several lives and 2 rare war birds.
As bad as this was, at least no one on the ground was hurt. The way this Air Boss ran the shows, he put the spectators and the nearby population at an unacceptable risk.
It did sound like you could do it better, and I believe you could do it better. I love your channel. You're a genuine American badass
Thanks!
Wow. Thanks for interpreting this for us Mover. A non-flyer like myself often wonders how this could happen. This answers a lot.
Always love the content - You as a NavyAF flyer know these rules...Not sure if the flyers were "TRAINED" by the Military, to know about altitude "BLOCKS". It is great information, but not sure it carried down the the Civilian flyers. I agree - great tragedy. Watched tons of airshows as a kid...witnessed F18 crash at El Toro years earlier...Flying is dangerous, but great job on the analysis.
Sounds like a cluster, like AB is making this up with an etch a sketch on the fly.
I saw the plane and met the pilot a few months before this.
Tough to lose him that way.
That plane was very rare too.
From what I remember of this, there was NO altitude deconfliction at all that was briefed. Just perhaps some lateral separation planned between the fighter and bomber groups and those went RIGHT out the window when this air boss decided to have aircraft groups cross in front or behind each other with their flight paths. That was the bad no no. I hope that "air boss" never gets put in charge of flight coordination ever again, no.
I was there, heard the crash, and saw the inferno moments after it happened (we were closer to the crash site in the private aviation hanger area). Good write up on what went wrong. Really sad day for everyone involved.
I remember back in the late 70s as a cadet in CAP at Rickenbacker given a tour of Gunfighter by Col Urschler not long after he acquired it. It's great to see her still flying!
Based on this review and that of your show with Gonky last night, you really need to look at the Wings over Houston coverage that happened a month before Dallas and also read the preliminary NTSB report on the Dallas show in order to comment on how wise it was. At Houston they were flying head to head ‘merges’ at 300-500ft with pyrotechnics pass after pass after pass and it was truly spectacular. It was the most astonishing display I had ever seen. I think I also saw a B29 super-fortress take off whilst the action was going on - amazing but looked chaotic, whether it was controlled chaos is the question? 😎😇
@@gbphil A few pilots raised safety concerns apparently but nothing was changed. Accident waiting to happen.
I also wonder if the Airboss had specifically asked if the b-17 had sight of the 3 fighters to the left instead of just saying fighters to the left if this could have helped avoid this accident.
Yep, specificity at that moment could have saved the two from conflicted path.
Hey Mover,
As far as I recall the Air Boss was the son of a former Air Boss and his reputation wasn't the best. That Show event was poorly planned and the call outs were unclear. The participating crews should have stepped up and say "no" . A lot of good people lost their lifes that day. People who loved aviation and those war birds so much. It was probably more important to them to perform the flying display than quitting the show even though the pre briefing wasn't as professional as it should have been. I don't blame them. God bless their souls
The would have been kicked out if they raised concerns, such was the culture
Thanks for doing a video on this Mover, I had a bad feeling that no altitude deconfliction had something to do with this collision.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Everyone blames the airboss, but exactly everyone sat on that briefing and was fine with this. Safety is everyone's responsibility after all.
Agreed.
Possibly the term "Air Boss" isn't such a good idea? To my ears it comes loaded with someone being in total control of what's going to happen, which is probably an inappropriate thing?
@@abarratt8869 I mean, that's what it's supposed to mean, because you likely still need someone to synchronize things. But it should be more like a conductor of an orchestra. They don't come up with the notes on the spot, everyone has their sheet, it's rehearsed, everyone knows what to do up front and conductor just gives timing and makes sure everyone is hitting their beats.
Don't do anything: Dumb, Dangerous or Different.
The P39 and P63 had a ton of complaints by pilots when they came out in WWII that pilot visibility was terrible due to the car door style cockpit. Literally had a door to get in the airplane. Big thick pillars in the way of everything. The Russians loved the aircraft because of how the employed the plane but also said visibility was horrible
It was windy and chilly, but you couldn't have asked for a nicer day. I still remember the crew waving as they took off for the last time. 😢
Thanks for this. So sad.
So painful to see this tragic accident but good explanation, Mover. Poor planning/briefing is a recipe for disaster, especially in aviation.
I remember that day and all the feels that hit me at once. I posted something similar on the first video on the channel about this accident.
My father was a B-17 pilot in the 385th BG at Great Ashfield, UK. I felt sad for him, though he was gone. He had such a love for the plane that brought him and his men home 36 times, often shot to hell.
I felt sad for the crews on those two planes and all the pilots up there at the time of that tragedy that witnessed it, but mostly I felt for the loved ones and friends left behind, still do. People are not supposed to perished in these planes now.
His biggest pucker moments were while forming up around their buncher in "the soup". Mid--air collisions were always a fear at this time. An orange flash in their grey world usually meant 20 guys just died without ever leaving England.
I hope a safer way can be found because I love seeing these planes in the sky where they're meant to be!
When you put a lot of aircraft in a small space, especially when there are different types of aircraft operating at different speeds, it is a statistical certainty that there will be collisions. The only question is at what rate.
Good review, especially the visibility issues from each plane. To my untrained eye it looks like the fighters didnt follow the vertical separation, the plan had no geometric separation and the airboss didnt give enough room for the turn.
CAF's mission is to use the warbirds to generate salaries and flying opportunities for their staff until they run out of flyable aircraft.
Once all available warbirds are crashed or scrapped, they'll shut it all down and go find something else to "preserve".
Once had a CAF guy tell me (with a straight face) "If it ain't flying, it's a boulder. Better a crater than a boulder."
The P-63 is notorious for its limited visibility.
Also, even though it had nothing to do with the accident, the revenue ride should not have been operating in the area.
It's just another potential hazard that the air boss and the performers didn't need to keep in mind.
Seems see and be seen was out the window. The fighter pilot was too old and flying behind the power curve. Descents and turns at those speeds and that weight along with age can cause a lot of slippage. I was a amphib pilot in the oilfield flying throughout the basin between tall cypress trees, boats, logs and into freaky weather which I would never try again at 77. Yep once you loose sight at that speed?
Formation flying + poor sightline cockpits = bad time. I always think of the loss of Carl Cross and Joe Walker in the XB-70/F-104 GE photoshoot incident. Al White the lead test pilot on the XB-70 program barely survived the crash.
I don't think any of the blame can be attributed to the P-63 visibility. For a WWII fighter, that was one area that it excelled at. The cockpit is ahead of the wing, the nose is thin and has more of a downward slope for better forward visibility than if there was an engine up front, and there's no heat effect coming from the exhaust that blurs your sight when you're looking at anything directly behind the exhaust stack in a conventional engine arrangement. The attitude the P-63 was in would have the B-17 in a blind spot regardless of the aircraft, you wouldn't see it in an F-16 or F-18. Maybe in the F-35 with that look-through helmet or an aerobatic plane with windows on the belly, but for the most part that B-17 was right between his knees which is a blind spot for virtually all aircraft. You never join another aircraft or turn inside another aircraft in a formation belly up for that reason. It was the airboss' fault for pressuring and getting them into that situation, but the P-63 pilot should have recognized that there would be an issue by turning inside of the bombers. Just a quick roll out to maintain situational awareness under that belly before resuming that turn might have prevented it all, but he was too pressured into catching up for that to happen.
I was there and saw it happen. It really messed me up for awhile. Still not sure if I'll be able to take in an airshow going forward.
Thanks for this video. Yes everybody sat in the briefing and seemingly did not speak up, but ultimately the Air Boss is in charge, and the CAF is responsible for who the Air Boss is and they sure seemed to screw that pooch. Knowing the lack of proper planning here the radio calls are so awful and frustrating to listen to. Just seen too many pilots killed with sloppy formation work/lack of planning.
The air boss told the fighters to be in echelon formation initially. So when the air boss told the fighters to go in trail, I took that to madness for the fighters to go in trail to themselves not in relation to the bombers.
One of the craziest videos I've seen
I do not know how pilots are chosen for these flights, but the air boss must have had some influence over pilot participation in the air show to humble so many pilots with his bull shit. Apparently the briefing was a joke and no questions were allowed. "if you want to fly these war birds you do not rock the boat"must be in play
Just goes to show how hard it is for humans to adequately make good decisions. On the assumption that they all knew "this is sketchy" in the briefing, they put flying in an air show ahead of avoiding a crash. That's just not rational.
Rules and procedures may seem dreary and restrictive, but we're far better off with them and following them properly.
I'm an engineer, and I teach other engineers about the limitations on their freedom from responsibility. One day you might get asked to do / build / write / design / authorise something dangerous by your boss. That's never a good day, but the only thing one can do if the boss insists despite objections is to report the situation to an appropriate authority (e.g. gov regulator), preserve the evidence of one having done that most thoroughly (e.g. print emails and lodge them with a lawyer), and walk away. One cannot always stop a bad situation turning into a disaster, but one has to look after one's own conscience and liberty.
Not a single pilot called knock it off due to the utter chaos! I flew formation in one small Airshow. The air boss cleared us to come in for our week long rehearsed display, and not one word was spoken by him until we finished and WE called “display complete”.
Thete is another plausible explanation. When looking at the tracks and transmissions, it is possible that the mishap fighter pilot saw one of the B-25s to the right aft when he dipped his wing, thought he was clear and didnt realize the B-17 was there because radio transmissions indicated the fighters were in front of the B-17. This confirmed the MPs perception when he saw bomber sircraft behind him.
Air boss should never have been in control of that show
Great job reviewing this Mover.
Mover it makes even more sense and not in a good way when you learn he only got the job because his dad did it. And if you’re wondering, no the nut didn’t fall far from the tree at all.
Great job as always, thanks for the video!!
does it matter the mixing of the P-51s with the P-63? Seems like the P-63 got gapped from the P-51s coming out of that turn. Had the P-63 kept up, perhaps different outcome?
Good video, thanks. But where can I get a hold of the music at the end of your videos? 🎉😊
Did you ever cover yours and Gonks thoughts on the recent FF F-18 shoot down?
Yup. Twice.
Looked. Live only? Don’t see in Videos or Shorts.
@@Av-vd3wk Yes, the live streams.
It’s on the podcast channel The Mover and Gonky Show
I think you mean the alleged FF shoot down
Definitely it was the air boss fault he wanted the bombers and fighters to switch flying lanes, which cause confusion between the pilots. In which cause the pilot of the p63 pilot to fall behind so he increased speed to catch up to the rest of the fighters to get in position. Which cause the collision with the b17.
I have stood on the banks of Lake Michigan next to the air traffic controller who was controlling the planes in the Chicago air show. The sheer quantity of planes he was dealing with, their different characteristics, the way he had them stacked in lots of holding stacks, and the way he was able to schedule them to come in low over the shoreline despite their different speeds etc. I was impressed that he was able to pull it off. But it cannot be without its risks, so many things could go wrong, and so much was in that one controllers head that if he took ill or whatever I really don’t know what would have happened.
Aerobatic guys don’t choreograph on the fly. Its planned before they even get in the plane. You see them practicing the pattern so their body does it innately.
I've always thought it especially tragic because all the causes that lead to this collision have already been identified and mitigated through planning rules many years before.
This really is an example where we're not learning anything new from this crash, we're just learning that complacency remains a threat and the known risks do need to be mitigated.
Truly tragic that so many lives were lost, and so many other lives so negatively affected, all to learn such a small lesson.
This sort of loss of life is never worth it, but at least we sometimes learn something new that goes on to protect thousands of others into the future. When such a huge cost paid gives us so little in return it feels even more profoundly pointless a trade.
I've actually had a chance to spend an hour or checking out this particular B17. It was parked at a local airport waiting to do rides for funding rides.
The Air Boss is ultimately at fault ! But then again all those experienced pilots and crew members should've spoken up well beforehand and said this isn't safe let's reevaluate the scenario. Accidents are caused by a multitude of mishaps and errors in judgement, not just a single mistake.
Proper planning predicts perfect performance. I'd warrant they relied on visual and airboss. Easy habit. Even the Thunderbirds had a mishap when there was normalization of deviance and assumption of safety. Safety is a culture that everyone has to adhere to and everyone is responsible for.
I remember listening to this when it happened and thinking the main cause of the accident was the air boss. Not even close. Such poor management of those aircraft.
He had a reputation, too.
It's really sad. The only good thing is that nobody else was injured or killed.
I go to the Sun N Fun Aerospace Expo every year, and most of the time, we get to meet the performers. So, when their flying, it's not some anonymous someone that you're watching but a face and a personality you can put with the show. Imagine meeting the person and a while later watching them die in a crash like this. I'm sure for those on the ground, it had to be jarring to see that happen. A lot of performers/pilots are there year after year and are a part of that air show's tradition. So they become a household name in those cities.
The fighters and bombers had different lines to fly (horizontal separation). The air boss on a whim did something that was not briefed and decided to swap the fighter and bombers to a different line. This swapping lines that was not planned for resulted in a collision. The air boss cause this. The fighters and bombers had different lines for a very good reason. The air boss was very new and I think this was his first event.
Two lines 500’ apart is insufficient separation.
Ive been going to airshows for 40 yrs, and Never have seen a show, where they had the aircraft bunched up coming in on final, they wouldn't run the fighters on join up , on a display run, unless the bombers were on downwind, always kept them away from each other, I attended @ Chino airfeild, planes of fame, always professionally Run, They had spotters to help the Air Boss, Hence 6 sets of eyes.
CAF has rebranded the show as “Aviation Discovery Fest” rather than “Wings Over Dallas.” I hope they’ve changed more than just the name. Reputation management should not be the number one concern.
@@edwardwright8127 The airshow hasn't taken place since the collision.
Friends of mine were killed in this accident. I have yet to see the memorial in Conroe.
been looking forward to your response since this accident. not a pilot, but just logically thinking, wouldnt a good plan to have been kept the bombers at 2,000 ft outboard of the fighters on approach to the runway line and the fighters at 1,000 ft in the lead. that way the fighters would be able to look out their left wing to see where the bombers are and the bombers would just have to look off their nose to see the fighters. the maneuver that happened for it to be successfull would require the bombers to have multiple observers inside the aircraft to keep a constant LOS on the fighters. the whole accident just makes me sick. it was unnecessary and baring mechanical failures which are always hard to predict, it shouldn't have happened.
I'm lucky enough to fly warbirds myself and this was very sad to hear about and see I knew the crew of the b17 g I don't understand why there wasn't a pre show or airshow briefing before the display
B-17 couldn't go right further. Separation line keeping aircraft from flying over crowds. It's why he turned straight when he did.
Even if they had someone looking out the top turret to spot... I don't think they could have gotten out of the way in time.
What confuse me is that there are a lot of former air show pilots, military pilots, flying these airplanes and why they didn’t speak out of the danger ahead of time
Unusual question, but do airbosses not have access to the type of info thats being displayed in this video? Like are they on the ground just watching on and calling on the fly? Or are they using live data fed to monitors like this video?
Air Boss was TOTALLY incompetent!
Why are we saying the P-63 could not see the B-17. If they are calling the fighters a formation he would be looking at #2. Lead said "we see him" but it wasn't "we" it was "I". The wingman were flying off lead and he took the flight into the path of the B-17. But was it a trail formation or some tactical type extended trail where they might also clear themselves? NTSB didn't ask lead what was briefed and the docket only shows a prelim interview with lead. NTSB did some very detailed followup interviews with a most of the personnel but I don't see one with fighter lead.
I have accidentally click on the "next" button so many times because you included the pause/play in the screen capture...
Those comms were very hard to follow even reading them on the screen! Air Boss was far from competent.
I have over 5000 hours, CFI AGI former comm pilot. What I saw was the pilot lost visual contact. Too late to recover the error.
I’m no expert, just an armchair aviation enthusiast. But, listening to the air boss call the maneuvers makes it pretty clear they had no plan and he was making it up as they went. I would think every turn, altitude and crowd pass should be understood before take off so there’s no confusion in the air. You just follow the script and the air boss should only have to call the timing and make sure people are following the script, not writing it in real time. I agree that it wasn’t just him at fault though. Everyone else went along with it. Just seems like a culture of complaisance that allowed bad behavior to go uncorrected.
Both aircraft involved were built during World War II, though neither saw combat.
'Texas Raiders', B-17G-95-DL 44-83872, was built in July 1945, in California. It was given to the US Army Air Corps. Days later, the Army handed her over to the US Navy. With the war in Europe concluded, the need of B-17 bombers was gone, and it was converted into a PB-1W, a long-range patrol aircraft, an early form of AWACs. For ten years she patrolled the coasts of the United States. In 1955, she was retired from the military. In 1957 she was purchased by the Aero Service Corporation, conducting land surveys in remote regions of North and South America. The Confederate Air Force purchased 'Texas Raiders' in 1967, who converted her back to World War II specifications.
The P-63 was a built in 1943 for the Army Air Corps. Her original serial number was 43-11719. An F variant, where only two of this type was ever built. Given a larger vertical tail and a Allison V-1710-135 engine at 1,500 horsepower, its purpose was to test, and fix, the many problems faced by Airacobras in high-altitude flights and combat. Such problems are never rectified. By the end of the war, this P-63 only possessed 24.1 flight hours. In 1946, the F model was sold off to a private buyer, who converted her into a racer. In 1981, the Confederate Air Force purchased and converted her back to her original US Air Corps specifications, though there are also photos of her painted to resemble a P-63 in the Soviet Air Force in the mid-eighties, as part of the historical Lend-Lease Act.
This b17 flew often over Dallas for years, I would stop every time and watch it. That day and the footage gutted me.
Same, I lived in Addison and would often eat at the sonic by the airport and watch the p-63 land.
I’ve been inside Texas raiders many times…. The lives loss are more important but the aircraft were very personal losses for me
Do fighter pilots have check lists? Are they digital?