Can Christians Be Demonized? Exploring Charismatic Teachings Of Demon Possession & Demon Oppression
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Join us as we delve into the widely held charismatic teachings that assert Christians cannot be demonized. We'll examine and challenge this belief by exploring two key quotes from prominent figures like Chuck Smith, as well as a comprehensive position paper from the Assemblies of God. With a balanced and respectful approach, we present counterarguments, drawing from biblical references and historical context to gently disagree and provide a compelling refutation of these charismatic notions.
But that's not all - we take our investigation a step further by delving into the writings of church fathers who hold an opposing perspective. Through quotes and thoughtful commentary, we highlight the historical continuity of the belief that Christians can indeed be subject to demonic influence. By juxtaposing these historical perspectives with the modern charismatic stance, we aim to foster a deeper understanding of this complex theological topic.
Join us for an exploration that encourages critical thinking and a nuanced understanding of charismatic teachings regarding demonization. Whether you're a believer seeking to deepen your faith or simply interested in theological discussions, this video offers a comprehensive analysis that invites viewers to consider different viewpoints and engage in meaningful dialogue.
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Josh Lewis' Church Kings Fellowship Church
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Michael Miller's Church Reclamation Church
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I am a Christian. I have been for over 20 years. I don't know what you call it, but I needed freedom from demons. I got it. I see the difference. I see the fruit. Deliverance is for Christians.
Amen. I have a similar story. I've been saved for 20 years and I got deliverance this year and it's been massively life changing, it significantly improved my walk with Christ. Deliverance is a powerful tool
Yes demonised Christians not possessed
Can Christians be demonized? Depends on what you mean by demonized? Demon-oppressed, possibly. Demon-possessed, absolutely not!
If what you say is true about believers being demonized, what guarantees any of you don't have a demon?
That's the thing. No one really can know for sure if they have a demon. In the gospels, people were clearly demon possessed. I don't know exactly what this looked like, but it must have been pretty obvious.
@@DavidWilkinss They actually addressed that in another video. If you want to know, command the demons to manifest and if something happens then you know.
Matt 12:27-29
27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.
13 min in. Why are we attacking a teaching from the 1970's? His argument that demons aren't in America because Christians is so stupid I don't understand why we're taking the time to address it.
Your arguments seem to lack the awareness that we are in the new covenant, filled with the Holy Spirit. See the scripture above where Jesus plainly states that for him to enter a house and plunder it, he must first bind the strong man. Contextually it's the only interpretation that makes sense.
Min 25 - Wrongly assuming Peter was filled with the Spirit of God then all the sudden by Satan. Not contextually accurate in the slightest.
Min 39:40 "if you are a person who has been casting demons out of Christians then these are things you just don't say".
This is statement is the root of why you can't effectively defend your position. It is apart of your ministry and you have to defend it.
Still waiting for strong biblical evidence to back up this position.
Love you guys, but this has to be the least biblical discussion I've seen from RR.
It would really suck for you to go to your church and go "hey I'm sorry, we thought we were casting demons out.. but actually we convinced you that you could have them and the fear caused you to psychosomatically react when we'd "deliver you".
And that's probably why you'll never change your position. But seek the scriptures as the Lord commands and I think you will see you're in the wrong here. Again love y'all. Shalom.
as someone who went to Calvary maybe you should study Chuck a little closer
Brothers! Brothers..come on!You're breaking my heart! Of all the current Christian teaching sites online your RR has been my favorite! And on so many of the tough controversial issues you've shown superb wisdom and scriptural soundness..I've bragged on your show to so many others!...So I'm baffled that you're "seeming" to jump onto the Demon Slayers bandwagon.Forgive me if I'm wrongly observing. Why do you seem to totally dismiss the point (as AG /Calvary Chapel both take ) that Christians CAN be oppressed (vexed) by demons but not possessed. Oppression CERTAINLY has happened to many godly people from time to time...but to make that leap of terminology and say clearly "Yes Christians CAN be demon possessed " it seems you're joining in with the "pigs in the parlor" ungrounded charismatics of the mid 1970s.Precious and sincere as they were, so many of those who started focusing on getting deliverance from demons were also the same ones who accepted naively many of the fads that came & went in the last four decades! Can't you see how this current movement teaching of demons inside believers is growing hysterically bizarre? The over-focus on darkness as such, seems to marginalize the preaching sanctification and the glory of the finished work of redemption at the Cross.
When you interviewed our brother Alexander Pagini (who, despite this issue is someone I really respect and honor as our brother and who has a real heart for the Lord).. you failed to push back on some of his ideas , as when he naively said "Why would a demon lie?" In his book he details things like teaching that demons can hide out in our body parts or brain cells (our stomach, our genitals!??) And too many of these advocates of "Christians have demons inside of them" get deep into generational curses to the point that is DOES become "magical thinking"...Tp me it seems this is pulling the lambs attention away from the finished work of the Cross, the power of the blood, and sliding gradually into the idea that somehow, we need "another salvation" by going through endless deliverances (The good brother Isaiah Salvadar compares it to a "car check" up, saying he needs demons cast out every few month?? )
Where does this end? It seems we're now dealing with a genuine demonic influence, ironically stirred up by the very ones who emphasize this teaching of "demon possessed Christians". These thousands of new excited young people who come into their meetings ,when they are told that their problem is an indwelling demon..they CAN psycho-somatically "play the part and and genuinely"feel" it (as when we see mass "slain in the spirit" scenes)don't don't you think? ...But THEN, in such sensationalism /experience-driven atmospheres, it seems clear that strange and evil and even supernatural things CAN enter the picture, because the demons delight in such a carnival atmosphere with all the vomit buckets ready!!!!.. To talk of the "deep things of Satan" is music to the the lurking demons' ears, I think. Have you see the crowds at a meetings by Prophet Java or "Apostle Krick" ? Please guys....pray abut this!
Love you 3 brothers to the max and I pray for you...and oh yes, guys..I agree with you how important it is to see deliverance from the oppressive yokes of OPPRESSION bondage that so any ungrounded and still fleshly worldly lambs are needlessly suffering under, but again I think it is a dangerous disservice to use the phrase "Christians CAN be demon possessed ! "..You can't imagine how much fear that can release to young lambs who do not yet know the wonderous work of salvation God did in them when they were born again, don't you think? Please prayerfully consider readdressing this serious issue.......Again, brothers three, we love you and pray for you and we NEED you out there!!!..For it seems lately that so many of our dear fellow charismatics are really being bombarded with new and sensational, but unwise doctrines and the sophistry of angel of light deception. blessings, fb
Right. These guys have been bamboozled. I hate it.
I pray they will read this and that the Holy Spirit will be speaking loud and clear!!! Thank you for writing this. Everything you said is complete truth!!
Nahhh. These guys have given Pagani and Saldivar good pushback and fine a good job of sifting through. Is like to see if Dr Brown could get on to weigh in. He is very good in this topic.
I just wanted to comment that I have been a Christian for 35 years, absolutely sold out for the Lord. I received the Holy Spirit last September and then just went through deliverance 2 weeks ago of almost 100 demons. Some from my doing and a ton from my masonic grandpa and rituals and curses he placed on me. So I'm not sure what to tell you, but Christians can have demons 🤷♀️
Agreed. When talking authoritatively on this position, all they have is their subjective evidence instead of objective biblical evidence.
Calvary Chapel failed a family that is close to my family. They assumed the mother was bipolar and didn’t take the potential of demonization seriously, despite a history of ouija board, etc. That failure has led to the complete demoralization and destruction of that family. Christians have to get smart on this asap! Thank you all!
As the church at Corinth was so close to and in some cases participating in activities associated with devils…. Yet, Paul mentioned nothing about them holding deliverance services or organize deliverance ministry teams.
Good point. There is actually not one single verse in the whole Bible that demonstrates that a Christian can have a demon. We are only told to resist and stand firm.
And it's clear that the early church had a ton of issues. But somehow now, 2000 years later, tons of Christians are walking around with demons, unaware? It's not adding up.
Also, I've heard people like Isaiah S. say that he's seen demon possessed people climb up walls, levitate, get thrown across a room...yet not a single supernatural occurrence has been caught on the hundreds of videos that are out there. Show me one single video of someone climbing a wall, levitating or their eyes glowing red and I'll reconsider my opinion of this.
I believe it was common practice to do deliverance as the Lord’s disciples. In Matt 10:7-8 Jesus instructs His disciples as He’s sending them out to “heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.” It was just a normal part of being a disciple. It’s the same with fasting. Paul never instructs on it anywhere bc it was just an expected normal part of being a disciple.
@@melaniem4070 I hear what you are saying, and it's possible you are right. But arguing that we don't have clear scriptures on the subject because it was just "common practice" is not really a good argument. Loving your neighbor and brother should have been the most common practice, but we have many exhortations to do so. Same with baptism and giving and praying. Very basic and foundational disciplines, yet many scriptures on it.
Obviously, you can't say that just because the Bible doesn't mention it means it's unbiblical and should be avoided. But in this case there is good argument that a Christian can't be inhabited by an evil spirit when they possess the Holy Spirit of God. Can salt and fresh water inhabit the same vessel? Personally, I lean towards believing that a Christian cannot have an evil spirit. But I'm remaining open to the possibility that God can show me I'm wrong through experience, then I can consider that experience and revisit this concept. Shoot, maybe I have a demon. I still struggle in some areas, as I'm sure most Christians do, and if I could instantly be relieved of some suffering I welcome it fully!
@@melaniem4070 none of the instructions on how we are supposed to resist the devil as a Believer, someone in dwelt with the Holy Spirit, have anything to do with casting demons out from the body of a Believer. Christians can be tormented by demons, but if you have the Holy Spirit, they cannot dwell inside you. Note that the disciples were casting demons out from people who did not have the Holy Spirit
@@ichoozjc don't be deceived by listening to somebody who says they are born again but they were fully possessed by a demon. We know someone is fully possessed by a demon if the demon is speaking through them, after all how can something use your mouth to speak unless it is fully inhabiting you. Christians and non-christians alike are going for deliverance. Those who have the Holy Spirit will experience extreme Peace during deliverance and leave without the demons that were oppressing them. Those that are possessed will scream and yell as the demon is fighting from leaving their body. Those that are possessed do not have the Holy Spirit
Josh there are two flaws in your using the verse about Jesus and Peter. Jesus doesnt call him possessed, he addresses the statement, which was satanic. Also, peter didnt have the Holy Spirit indwelling so you cant use that verse to prove someone with the Holy Spirit can be possessed
Fax
Annias and Sapphira were believers filled with Satan in Acts
I tend to agree. there is no indication that satan somehow entered Peter but rather that Peter's words reflected satan's thinking. that is, opposition to God's will.
@@PC-vg8vn exactly.
From my personal experience and knowledge of studying this. Christian's can be demonized and have their thoughts influenced by Satan and demons. I have found that in my life after overcoming the demons of suicide and suicidal ideations. I can tell when those demons are trying to influence my thoughts when it is opportune for them. Now I can rebuke them with Jesus. So thank him for that!
You told a story about how I supposed believer in Christ, walking with the Lord, refused to have a demon cast out of them... Isnt that proof that they're not walking with the Lord? You're telling me someone who is indwelled by the Holy Spirit, went to get deliverance, and then decided to keep their demon? Your story seemed to refute itself quite badly
I thought the same thing! How can they be saved, but want to keep their demon. That’s like saying I’m a Christian, but I also like to practice idolatry. Sounds like they were never saved to begin with.
@@lindsaygraham9115 indeed.
So you guys believe that when a person receives Christ the demons don't get cast out of them? What then is the power of Christ to you
When demons leave someone there is typically a fight or loud screams (this is biblical). Is that what you usually see when someone becomes a believer? No The Holy Spirit moves in, but that doesn't mean any evil has moved out.
@@richardnewell8478Jesus says if you continue in His word you will be set free. Being demonized is certainly not a state of freedom. If just continuing in the word "sanctification" was not enough to get totally set free, there would be at least on verse in the bible that would tell us about casting out demons. That's pretty important, imo.
@@richardnewell8478 Can you read your own words? "The Holy Spirit moves in, but that doesn't mean any evil has oved out!" I'm sorry, friend, but if that's the case, then it's dishonoring and minimizing the omnipotent glorious power of God's Light! ...Basically that would be saying in effect that God can step into an area that was filled with darkness and abide in that place and yet some of the dark shadows refuse to go.Illogical for darkness is immediately conquered by Light John 1:5! .... When I came to Christ out of occult and drugs, my life was just totally vexed by the demonic powers..But I repented and the full Gospel power of salvation drove out the evil..I got up off my knees a new creation!..No one had to tell me the next day "Now, later on lets pray that God casts out this or that demon!..." There were no shouts or fights or loud screams as I was delivered of the demonic that night I was born again..just intense crying in repentance..Oh what a Savior we have! "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty"
Haunted Cosmos ( who would be great guests on Remnant Radio) podcast has an interesting take on demons adapting to the spiritual environment or lack thereof a culture. For instance, pagan and animist cultures experience demons and spirits on a spectrum of benevolent to malevolent. As Christians we would see either as outside of Christ and demonic and usery. But in the modern era of science, demons manifest themselves as aliens or cryptid mysteries. The point is demons don't care about cultural views, they care about turning the hearts of people to themselves and away from Christ by any means necessary.
Yes please get the haunted cosmos guys on ❤
Dude, thanks for mentioning Haunted Cosmos, I’ve never heard about them, but it sounds like an interesting Channel!
Once your reborn again spiritually there exists a battle between your fleshly nature and the spirit of God in you . The flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh , the two are contrary so that you don't do what you want to do .
Exactly and the fleshly not yet redeemed nature is the dwelling place of demons
There is no verse in all of scripture saying a Spirit filled born again believer can be demon possessed
Amen. We are sealed by the holy spirit. Any oppression we might have is an alliance with our flesh. Thank God that through Christ within us we battle those forces and we overcome through him who loved us and is in us!
Nor is the a verse that says the opposite. Simply, the Bible doesn't answer this question for us.
Hey dudes i respect what y'all do and how you do it. Somethings to think about... i dont believe the holy spirit is tag teaming with a demon in a believer. Thats said if a demon still resides in a human after professing faith in christ how does that work? Is the blood not enough? Why is satisfaction still a thing if i can just get "delivered" for all the areas we lack discipline in? Examples given were not people fill with the holy spirit like today. Jesus rebuking peter who wasnt spiritfilled. The bible says the devil entered judas not peter... just some thoughts. Really enjoying y'all content just disagreed a little here 😅
There are too many people who have demons and getting them cast out for that belief to be true
@jeffpratt996 so experience is over the word of God? So then 2 Corinthians 5:17 is a lie? That's dangerous. Please be very careful what you claim to believe... The Holy Spirit and demons aren't tag teaming inside of you if you are a born-again believer.
Give me a biblical example of a christian in the bible being demonized?
Did you not watch the video?
Get behind me Satan
That doesn't prove it can't happen.
@@andreab1144 That's not demon possession, if not Jesus would have delivered him on the spot.
@@randygarza490good point
How about 1 Cor. 5:5 Hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. It's a bit off the beaten path, but it is possible for a born-again believer to be harrassed by Satan and his minions.
There is a logical fallacy in the idea that someone who has recently had the Holy Spirit indwell them(thru salvation), would then need a fellow believer to cast out demons, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Why would not the initial depositing of the Holy Spirit be enough power to drive out the demons? Are you telling me the power lies in the other person casting out the demons? If they're casting out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit, then why would not receiving salvation by the Holy Spirit be enough? It makes no sense logically that having God indwell me would not be enough to cast out demons, but I would then need another person to sweep up and clean up after God. This is totally putting down the power of the Holy Spirit when it in dwells us. I dont care if an early church father believed it was necessary to exorcize a new believer. What power do they have that Jesus does not? And by the way, we don't listen to Catholics when they appeal to church Authority for their false practices of praying to Saints and worshipping Mary. Why should I then listen to your appeal for church Authority when they are clearly going against the power of the Holy Spirit to deliver people from demons? And not to mention you keep saying there are Bible verses that say that people with the Holy Spirit can be indwelled with demons, when they're clearly aren't any Bible verses that say that! And I've listened to all your teachings on the matter, and have never heard you cite a Bible verse that confirms that someone filled with the Holy Spirit can also be indwelled by a demon. I say all this in love. I am passionate about it because this is a very serious issue. We must not downplay the power of the holy spirit in protecting us from having demons enter our body. And even if a Believer is tormented by demons, they always have more than a Fighting Chance because they have the Holy Spirit of God living inside of them
VERY well said friend. I've been around the block for quite awhile and seen this teaching's bad fruit. For sadly, the teaching that we somehow need to get demons cast out, even if we have the Holy Spirit inside us, is utterly confusing to the young un-grounded lambs who don't yet understand sanctification and a glorious finished work of the Cross! Yes! Absolutely, believers can unfortunately live so carnal that they become oppressed by demonic influence..(or as one old-fashioned word "vexed"), but that is far different from telling the scared young lambs :"Now you have Jesus in your heart so don't worry..But inside of you is a demon hiding! Here now ,I've got your vomit bucket ready..now "Come out, you demon of rejection and inferiority/lust/anger etc! " God help all us put the attention back on the glorious preaching of the Cross!
@@frankboston3377 everything you said is so true. I actually believed this doctrine of demons for about a week while I was oppressed from a sin that I was doing. I believed what they said, that by sinning you would invite many demons to enter you. So I was deceived and started listening to Deliverance videos. I had this urge to listen to as many Deliverance videos as I could to make sure all of the Demons left. Then God enlightened me and I realized how heavy and how burdensome this doctrine is. I started to apply what the word of God said about demonic oppression, I resisted the devil and submitted myself to God. I took authority over the demons tormenting me and cast them away from me. I read scriptures every time I felt anxiety rising up. I went to bed with Bible scriptures playing. The enemy fled quickly. A lot of the people that are heavily into Deliverance Ministry and believe that Christians can have demons are biblically illiterate. They often preach from the Old Testament as if it applies to us, when clearly in the Bible it states that Christ is the end of the law for all righteousness. Clearly it states that Christ became the curse for us, yet they state that we are all under a curse. They elevate the power of demons and Satan above the power of the Holy Spirit. I have heard Isaiah Saldivar say that if you kissed your dead grandmother on the cheek, then demons are going to enter you. They make it seem like the Temple of the holy spirit is a playground for demons and you're in danger of getting a demon at every corner.
@@somethinggood9267 Thank you friend..What a blessing to read your words that put the focus back on the finished work of Christ in giving us full, (not partial) salvation through His atonement!!..And yes, it's unfortunately true that many of the teachers wrongly use old testament examples out of context and they elevate personal experiences above Scripture!
It only makes sense that if this were true that millions and millions of sincere born again believers still need to go through sessions (with the vomit can ready!) and have demons cast out, SURELY there would be multiple references to this practice in the book of Acts and the epistles.But we do NOT..Even with Corinth 's very carnal status, Paul didn't tell them to get demons cast out..but stressed sanctification/repentance, etc..I'm really sad that all 3 of the good bros here on RR seem to be drifting toward this dangerous camp of current teaching, due to experiences over scripture.Can't they see the pandora's box of fear this can generate in young lambs who need desperately to be taught on the power of their salvation..("And they overcame him, the dragon, by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony!") Blessings to you..and blessings to our dear brothers at RR!
You are both a blessing and a breath of fresh air!! Thank you for your sound, loving biblical comments!!
@@micheletisdale7467 thank you so much for the encouragement! I feel very very strongly on my conscience that this is a crucial issue for the children of God to understand correctly. If not, we are at risk of losing our correct view of God and the power he has
I have done some egregious send in my life, including sexual sin and doing drugs and alcohol. By engaging in these sins I put myself under the influence of demons, but at no point did a demon inhabit my body. I have the holy Spirit living inside of me, and the holy Spirit will not let an unclean Spirit enter me. These doctrines that believers can have demons living inside of them make the power of the holy Spirit seems so small. If we read the Bible clearly, we see that all demonized people did not have the holy Spirit.
Did u watch the video? I’d think not.
Ppl who are demonized and then get saved.. Have you ever seen a new believer delivered from demons?
When would that happen? It MUST HAPPEN POST salvation!
Amen. I have to say that I get very frustrated at this doctrine of Christian’s having demons. It’s so deceptive.
@andreab1144 I don't understand your statement. Why does deliverance have to happen post salvation? All the examples in the Bible show it is the opposite way. People get delivered and then follow Jesus.
I have yet to see a valid Biblical example of actual in dwelt by the Holy Spirit believer having demons in them.
I understand there are people we believe are saved that have demons cast out but are they really saved? Often times, those same people are out living in the flesh and a life of sin.
After all, you don't just get a demon by accident. Something had to have happened either through your family's or your own actions allowing it to dwell in you.
@@andreab1144 when the Holy Spirit and dwells your body at Salvation, all demons leave your body. If you are talking about spiritual attack after the person receive salvation, that is another issue. We are given clear instructions in the Bible on how to deal with spiritual attacks. They don't include casting demons out from the body of a believer.
@@chris2614-f5c this is my theory about Deliverance Ministry. Both people with the Holy Spirit and those who do not have the Holy Spirit are going for deliverance. But those who have the Holy Spirit in them, get demons cast out of their life, but not out of their body. They may have been tormented by a demon of depression and need the help of prayer to have it leave. This is biblical. The other people, who start thrashing around and screaming no!!!!!!!( and acting fully possessed) when they are having demons cast out of them were never saved and do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. The reason I know this is because in order for a demon to speak through you, he would have to have total control of your body. This is what is called possession. It is completely different from Simply being influenced or tormented by a demon as a Believer. The devil will constantly attack children of God because he wants to make our life miserable and make us ineffective. If we are under spiritual oppression where the demons are attacking us, we should definitely have people lay hands on us and pray for us. This is in the Bible, these tools are for our use. But at no time will a demon take control of a believer's mouth and speak through them. That would indicate that they have complete bodily control over the believer, COMPLETE control over their body. That is what full-blown Possession looks like. Total possession can only happen in the body of someone who is not into out by the Holy Spirit. As a Believer, we are literally possessed by the Holy Spirit. We are God's possession. No demons can take possession of us and speak through us.
The example made about Jesus saying to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan” in no way infers Peter was possessed. It appears he was influenced by Satan to tell Jesus not to go to the cross. We are admonished to “test the spirits”. We, as true believers, can be influenced by the Holy Spirit or unholy spirits. This isn’t a text that supports believers being demon possessed. I absolutely believe that Satan and his fallen angels and demons are alive and well in the 21st century. They are operating in plain sight, but I have yet to see any example of a believer being demon possessed in Scripture- especially post Acts 2, after the birth of the Church and Pentecost.
I love your ministry, but have to politely, yet strongly disagree with your thesis that true believers can be possessed.
Absolutely on the same page
From twisting Chuck Smiths words to using the worst examples I've ever heard to support their case, all I can do is smh
You are not working in counseling? Christians can be demonized the English expression possessed is a wrong translation!
I am minstrering since more than 40 years in deliverance of Christians! I do not deliver non Christians! For the demons would come back as soon as the person leaves my presence with the indwelling Holy Spirit.
It’s interesting how strong minded ignorant Christians can be.
Would a testimony of a Christian who had demons change your mind? Because that was me. I just went through deliverance 2 weeks ago. I got saved when I was 8, strayed a bit in hight school but have been sold out for the Lord for at least 20 years. I lead youth group, sing on the worship team, read my Bible and pray almost every day. I got filled with the Holy Spirit in September. I have been on a 5 year journey to learn more about the Holy Spirit because I come from a Father, Son, Holy Scriptures kinda church. We didn't talk much about Him. So I felt the urge to talk to a deliverance minister and 20 hours later, I am free of almost 100 demons, some from my doing and a lot from my masonic grandpa that did a ritual on me and put me under several covenants. It's been a crazy couple weeks since being freed! It is amazing!!!
Stepping out on a limb here, but I work at a prison. And I have seen several manifestations and dealt with them personally. It’s my opinion that the demons in this part of the world are very good at hiding. I think they dwell in the prisons, on the streets among the homeless, and other places that do not get a lot of attention.
the late Derek Prince has some good teaching out here on youtube
Derek Prince was a false teacher when it came to deliverance
Derek prince also wrote a great book called they shap expel demons. Best deliverance book I've read yet.
I remember watching a certain “demon slayer”…. Casting out a “financial” demon… and another popular one casting out a “demon of lactose intolerance”… absolutely absurdity! Please pray for discernment of your following these types…
the Bible is very clear how a Christian is supposed to deal with demons James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. No where after the resurrection do you see Paul instruct the church to perform deliverance on other believers but he does tell us to put on the armor of God and stand against the devil....we don't have a demon problem we have a submission problem.....Paul probably talked more about how to conquer the sin nature that was at war with the Spirit of God in a born again believer...I was in bondage once in my life an got delivered, and then I went back and when I came back into obedience and submission to God I resisted every demonic force coming against my life and they left and that was over 20 years ago.....God bless keep up the good work!!!!
Trying to listen to all of this while I'm working today. Guess I really have a lot of questions. I don't understand putting much weight on what "church fathers " have said or necessarily taught. Many of them were bound up in asceticism, something Paul clearly taught against. And then I'm supposed to take their word on issues that the Bible isn't clear on? You talked about their perceptions of people, that they thought the possessed were true Christians. Maybe Tertullian's perception was wrong. Jesus said this of the Pharisees in Matt. 23:27. These are also the very people Jesus mentions in Matt. 7. They look great, look the part, but were none of His. And the only one that knew was Jesus himself. Our perceptions of a person can be wrong. In the end, it's God Himself who knows.
The experience Miller shared about the Scottish woman who was a demon possessed Christian, so why did it end with her not wanting the demon to go because it was protecting her? He used this example when he said alot of Christians are unaware of what's going on. This confused me because if she didn't know and loves the lord, why wouldn't she want to get delivered?
She's obviously not a believer. To me that was insane to suggest she's a believer.
Not all church fathers were walking in truth . Throughout the history of the church there has always existed false teachers who krept in unawares teaching doctrines of demons .
Right. I find it quite frustrating at how much they appeal to experience and church history. But not so much from scripture. Or when they do, they read this idea of Christian’s having demons into the text. It’s just not there.
Tertullian was not as “solid” as they said. He became an outspoken Montanist who Church historians consider heretical.
None of the "church fathers" walked in truth. They were all either apostates who taught bits of what the apostles preached or were flat out heretics.
If people who have christs spirit in them, can then be possessed, that whats the assurance that we have the holy spirit in us anyway?
What comfidence do we have that jesus is protecting us and that in him we are victorious over things in the unseen relms?
It doesnt make any sense.
Any of those things they described in the early church are documents of events..
But God knows whats going on in a persons heart.
How can someone be saved, but want to keep their demon? That’s like saying I’m a Christian, but I also like to practice idolatry. It makes me think they were never saved to begin with.
The same way some Christians still want to keep watching porn, commit adultery, etc.
If you are demonized and recognize it, can you simply repent from the sin that entangled you in the first place with the demonic? Like, casting it out of yourself or is having someone else do it necessary? I just feel like repenting from sin is sufficient for salvation and following after Jesus will disentangle you from the lies l of the enemy and the sin of the flesh
You believe correctly. Fortify yourself by reading all the scriptures about how we, as believers, are to deal with the devil and deal with spiritual warfare. If a demon is oppressing you, you can cast it out of your life. But at no point can a demon inhabit the body of a believer which has the holy spirit in it. The Bible tells us this clearly
@@somethinggood9267 thank you!! I believe the scriptures are clear on this point as well
@@somethinggood9267 What verse specifically says that?
@@richardnewell8478multiple places but here are a couple passages that indicate a demon cannot enter somewhere unless it is empty.
"Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none."
Matthew 12:25-29, 43 ESV
And later in Matthew, we see this passage:
“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”
Matthew 12:43-45 ESV
Based on these passages, it seems that the only way an evil spirit could inhabit someone is if it is an empty dwelling. Being empty implies the Holy Spirit is not present. The house is clean (sin has stopped) but the Holy Spirit didn't fill the void left. It would be the equivalent of being delivered but then not accepting Jesus afterwards.
Either way, those verses imply demons can't just indwell someone who has the Holy Spirit actively inside them. That correlates with all examples we see in scripture when demons are cast out.
It can work that way sometimes, sometimes having someone cast it out of you is necessarily. I've had both experiences personally.
A video about demonisation shld mention teachings of Derek Prince who coined the term "Demonisation". The concept of Christians are oppressed and not possessed is also from him.
This whole topic is caused by works-based doctrine; the same one that has been around since Cain. It IS the doctrine of demons. A Christian is not saved by works and so a Christian cannot be identified based upon works. WE are not appointed tare pullers because WE cannot tell the difference between the wheat and the tares. God has designated angels to separate the wheat from the tares for him when the time comes. That designation is based upon who's name is written in the book of Life; not who's name is signed in the guest book of whatever location a Church or Cult leader doesn't want his people going to.
People in a church congregation may indeed be possessed specifically because works-based doctrine is so prevalent and powerful in the western church. Very few attendees in western churches actually believe they are saved by grace alone and as such are not Christians! Pushing these ideas such as "a Christian doesn't sin(act, do, be somewhere, etc) that way" is a false doctrine that leads to a false profession of faith. Pushing ideas such as "now that you are saved you must complete this list of dos" is a different gospel. Pushing a mandatory to do list before baptism? The absolute nerve. "Be Holy because your Lord God is Holy" is what you send with the new Christian; not an excel spreadsheet.
Quibbling with the definition of what ridiculous sliding scale of influenced may or may not mean is manipulation and sophistry. Be better than that.
It's no wonder why the church is stuck on milk.
I remember reading in Pagani’s book and hearing in his podcast…
1) we need to pray over our bodily openings to protect from demon intrusion
2) if you sneeze more than 2X you probably have a demon
3) if you contuslly struggle with a certain sin, you probably have a demon
4). Demons can attack you and “sexually assault” you in your sleep… to become you “spirit spouse”
Brothers, if you believe this non-sense, please pray for discernment.
I think God would want your listeners to do better at interpreting the Bible than what is found in the content of this session.
Sola Scriptura. Church history is valuable but isn’t the final word on a doctrine. Appreciate you brothers even though we differ on this point. May God continue to use you and bless you and your ministries
And they censor comments... never a good sign at all.
@@AthenaChambers-ck4dt I’ve noticed that they censor also.
This. I got to mark 20 and scant a mention of verses.
Man, I think God is trying to tell me something. I came to Christ at a deliverance ministry. I was delivered in that ministry but NOT by the minister. Some years later, here I am, just ordered 2 books on deliverance. Yesterday, y’all had homeboy talking about deliverance now y’all talking about demonization…🤔 I’m listening Lord. 👂
Do you know what sanctification is?
@@somethinggood9267 Yes, why do you ask? Do you know what it is? Do you need help understanding what it is, maybe? 🤔
@@DavidWilkinss Kind sir, I have had many incidents in my walk that tried to “shipwreck” my faith. Thankfully I have a relationship with the captain of the ship, and the seas, and the winds and the waves…I’m sorry it might have happened to you or someone you know. 🙏🏽🫶🏽
@@ladym7852 please my dear sister in Christ, I'm not trying to offend you. I am simply asking because many people who believe they need Deliverance over and over again, do not know about the sanctifying power of the holy Spirit to defeat sin and evil in their lives. I want to encourage you to cast out any demons that maybe oppressing you, seek prayer from your church, put on the armor of God, repent of all sin. The Bible tells us that if we submit to God, and resist the devil, he will flee from us
@@somethinggood9267 Where did I say that I need deliverance? 🤔
“Possession” was a mistranslation by the King James boys. The Greek word in English is demonized, which means afflicted, vexed, tormented, oppressed, etc.
The Holy Spirit IS GOD, the third person of the Trinity. If He in dwells a believer no demon can possess a ever them. To suggest otherwise is to say a demon (a created being) has equal power to God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. That stance is blasphemous.
My wife and I have been doing inner healing ministry for a number of years. I just realized that much of what we have been doing is casting out demons, albeit in a different manner. We've often seen manifestations as people repent of their sins and get healed. Great episode.
You don’t cast out demons by inner healing but it can help cast them out. You cast them out by commanding them.
You cast them out by the authority of Christ.
@@JamieLLamar yeah that’s what I implied but didn’t say explicitly
@@Colbychristie I thought that may be the case. I just wanted to clarify. Praise God you are being His hands and feet!
I have been involved with Calvary Chapels for many years. I have a couple of Chuck Smith's books and listen to his teachings among others. They aren't perfect, but they are still quite good. I agree that demonic activity is there and increasing. It probably wasn't as strong when Chuck Smith started. Too bad they aren't looking to Dr. Heiser's works. It's possible that understanding of demonization and the spiritual realm is starting to come back to more Biblical views. Demonization was not as much of a problem for a long time in our nation's history. Also, the increase of materialism (not the over buying of stuff) has had an effect.
Why do you support false teachers and false apostles such as Alexander Pagani? I cannot believe you guys are not able to discern that that guy is a self appointed apostle and a false teacher.
I think it’s because the Remnant Radio guys are looking at this subject through a charismatic filter. Rather than letting the Bible speak
The Apostles were Charismatics. Your position is the novel position. The Bible teaches Believers are to SEEK the Gifts.
@@andreab1144 I meant Charismatic in the modern denominational sense
An enemy can get in a house but that doesn't mean he owns it. It appears to be the same with demons.
Before I watch this, I think I understand 'some' of the main strands of 'charismatic' teaching on demonic oppression & possession. I'm no theologian or scholar so give me grace. In simple terms - a Spirit-filled and obedient Christian could NEVER be possessed. They could be oppressed, which would require a combination of repentance and spiritual warfare. I'll have a watch, let me be open ad educated.......
You guys crack too many jokes while talking about serious subjects. Like teenagers do.
I think Peter was influenced by Satan when he told Jesus not to go to the Cross, but that doesn't mean that he was possessed by Satan. You know there is a difference between influence and possession right?
It may be an argument from silence, but it's a valid argument. Having a demon is pretty darn serious, if you ask me. Yet, not a single instance of a believer having a demon? Some have said that Jesus casting out demons from God's people, the Israelites, is parallel to Christians. But those same Israelites crucified Jesus. Not a good comparison.
yes. that scripture is a good example of a believer being influenced not possessed (i believe peter was influenced because he had so much fear which that enemy used in that moment)
These guys always talk out of both sides of their mouth!!!!
In the New Testament, the Bible tells the believer to Pray, Renew the spirit of your mind, call for the elders of the church, anoint your head with oil, lay hands on, Stand, Cast off, Cast down, Submit to God, Resist the Devil, Cleanse your hands, Purify your heart and Abide in Jesus. Not cast out demons in believers. I believe that Christians can be attacked from the outside of the body but not inhabited in the body. If you have the Spirit of God, it is the seal of ownership. Jesus said that the world can not know nor receive the Spirit of God. I believe when Jesus talked about people performing miracles in his name and not being accepted by him, it was mainly people outside of Jesus Christ. Many psychic readers say there gifts are from God and use Christian symbols, but I believe that anyone who performs miracles by the Spirit of God is saved. They may not be right with God sometimes but as long as God lives in you he is correcting, convicting and empowering men and women to turn more fully to the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus said the body of the Christian is the temple of God.
The Holy Spirit isn't a magic seal that can never be broken like evangelicals think. As Paul taught in his epistles, it is a down payment on salvation, down payments can always be lost. The fact that so many ppl had the Holy Spirit and still ended up opposing God like Saul did proves the Holy Spirit doesn't magically prevent ppl from demonic influence or even outright possession if they start rebelling against God. That is why Paul warned Christians not to quench the Spirit of God.
Prior to conversion, Paul did not have the Holy Spirit, even his own testimony states that. When people turn from God, they can loose salvation but not if they have the Holy Spirit and do not turn from the Lord Jesus Christ and they are saved.
Just to comment on the idea of ethnocentrism for this topic. In Screwtape Letters, CS Lewis describes two strategies used by demons regarding their existence - either keep people from believing in/seeing them at all or make the person see demons behind every corner. In other words, they want to take people to either extremes, and why wouldn't demons utilize the flaws in someone's worldview as a way to influence them? In the US, I see a worldview that is naturalistic - we tend to assume and look for natural causes to problems and disease. So demons can more easily hide in plain sight as you guys said. But in some other places, like Africa where I've been living and serving for 10 years, there is a very supernatural worldview here. They believe in demons without a problem, so the tactic by demons seems to be the other extreme where I've seen people who assume that every problem and affliction in their life is caused by a demon or curse which can lead to fatalism, lack of personal responsibility, and a whole lot of fear. So just because demonic activity isn't "seen" in the US in the same way as in other countries doesn't mean it's not happening. Just a different strategy of demons utilizing the weak areas of someone's worldview.
Gotta agree with the disagreement about the A of G position to a person being demon possession.
Mentioned it last time this issue came up. In my youth there was a time with a well engaged member of the congregation and I'd say without knowing him in a personal manner I'd say he was a "saved" person.... Anyway he gave an announcement early in the service about something.... I don't remember... Royal Rangers... I don't know.... Later during the sermon he stood up and proceeded to "prophetize" in a weird eractic fashion. Yes, in the middle of the sermon... He wasn't all there and was immediately shot down by the pastor from the pulpit. Even after told forcefully from the pulpit to be silent, he said a couple words and stood there awkwardly.
The pastor was quick to silence this guy as a demon manifestation and I'm inclined to agree. Nothing about this situation was normal. Even 25 years later as an adult I'd say yeah it was a demon manifestation. The elders escorted the man out and dealt with it.
The problem with this situation was it was in contrast with the A of G position on Christian possession in a mature established based A of G church.
Yeah, I'm saying in the late 80's in a solid A of G church we saw a situation that was in conflict with the A of G official position. Yeah, I've seen plenty in the A of G that was emotional and near NAR. This wasn't it. This was a good established but yet charismatic A of G church and a conflict with their official position.
No, I don't think it was mental illness.
The noise I made when Josh said the guy wasn’t a Great Value off-brand church father 😂😂😂😂
We should be reading that excerpt to all the hyper charismaniacs. The man was demonized and THEN started speaking in tongues, rolling on the floor and prophesying 😮
I'm not joking. I started this channel because of the specific to be in so many ways because I was a Calvary chapel type apologetics who got delivered from addiction of fentanyl and was also baptized in the spirit and now walking in freedom and having revelations each day at a level that's beyond supernatural. This was one of the best videos I have ever seen. A basically has been playing out like this in my head. The conversation that I just watched right now.....
Perception is not truth and reality .
A Christian getting a divorce illustrated with a Christian being possessed by an evil spirit is not a good illustration. Jesus cast out many demons during his time, did He ever mention that they were followers of Christ. Did the apostle Paul mentioned Christian being demon possessed.
There appears to be some confusion here in this discussion regarding a Christian being ‘demonized’. The Apostle Paul in Romans 7 discusses the ongoing battle between the spirit and the flesh. There are plenty of warnings in scripture regarding not yielding to the flesh and producing the works of the flesh. No where in scripture do you see the disciples casting out demons from believers. No where. If it was as prevalent as presented in this video, James 5:13-15 would have included, ‘if anyone of you is demonized, let him call for the elders of the church and be prayed for and delivered’. This is a serious topic and I believe Paul would have addressed it in his epistles. A demon is a unclean spirit. That spirit can not reside with the Holy Spirit in the same temple of the believer. 🙏
Guys demons aren’t physical. They can’t “reside” anywhere…in the believer or unbeliever😂
@@debras3806 Mark 5:1-13 ….whether you call it ‘occupy’, ‘inhabit’, ‘dwell’, ‘reside’, ‘possess’….I think most people understand what’s being said.
Would a testimony of a Christian who had demons change your mind? Because that was me. I just went through deliverance 2 weeks ago. I got saved when I was 8, strayed a bit in hight school but have been sold out for the Lord for at least 20 years. I lead youth group, sing on the worship team, read my Bible and pray almost every day. I got filled with the Holy Spirit in September. I have been on a 5 year journey to learn more about the Holy Spirit because I come from a Father, Son, Holy Scriptures kinda church. We didn't talk much about Him. So I felt the urge to talk to a deliverance minister and 20 hours later, I am free of almost 100 demons, some from my doing and a lot from my masonic grandpa that did a ritual on me and put me under several covenants. It's been a crazy couple weeks since being freed! It is amazing!!!
basement boy always crying
The exorcism baptismal prayer of renouncing Satan and all his evil pomp's is still prayed at every Catholic and Orthodox baptism!
In the opening M.R mentioned Saul's possession in a monotheistic culture. And that he professed the LORD. Definitely not the best example. Scripture makes it clear he was in rebellion against God and that the Spirit had departed him.
The scripture referring to Lord Lord did we not cast out demons did we not prophesied in your name. It’s not about people that lost their salvation. It is about people in the NAR!
Doesn't that scripture mean that people who are doing these things but living immoral lives, personal gain ( hearts also far from Yeshua) putting themselves above the Lord, Jesus is talking about?
I remember the question as to whether a Christian could have a demon or not. Back in the mid 70s. I actually went to a charismatic conference in Pennsylvania where I lived. Frank Hammond taught on his book. Before we went we had come to the conclusion that a Christian Can be possessed by a demon or more likely oppressed.by one . As a person who believes that you can walk away from your salvation. This is done through the deception of the devil with Demons. Can a person Who One’s confess to be a Christian become like a demoniac? If you believe someone can be deceived to walk away and fall back into some worst conditions of sin and debauchery etc. then I say yes. Many argue how can the Holy Spirit and Satan live in the same house. We know that a house divided shall not stand. Therefore Christian allows Satan to influence them to the extent of like a demoniac that house is destroyed. Again how does a demon and the Holy Spirit live in the same person. We must understand the tripartation of man . Being body soul and and spirit when we become believers the Holy Spirit or the God had comes and lives within our spirits. That’s where the Holy Spirit is at Satan cannot get in there if we choose not to allow him to get in there. Just like God did not always dwell with man in the Old Testament I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit will always dwell and a person who consistently after Becoming a Christian chooses to go back into a lifestyle of sin.
1500 years 😮. God forgive us and set us straight. Praise you Jesus Christ 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻✝️✝️✝️🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
It's been 2,000 years!
I'd love to discuss Yah's Sabbath, Commandments and Feast Days with all 3 of you Guys. I feel the Churches have been high jacked. Shabbat Shalom Ya'll!!!
Acts of the Apostles 5:3 NLT
[3] Then Peter said, “Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself.
This is also good evidence!
Where a lot of you in the comments are missing it is possession means ownership like they possess/own said person but that is not true and is not accurate to the original text. Demonization is the correct term according to the original language of scripture and also doesn't mean the same thing as possession. Being demonized is being afflicted, persuaded, blinded, deceiving, or even "under control" but not in the full sense since God tells us in his word that all souls are His (Ezekiel 18:4) even the one who sins. So if it's His then a demon or the devil cannot own it, even hell isn't ruled by the devil it was made for him and his angels and they will be sent there but do not rule it but rather its their judgement (Matthew 25:41). (Ephesians 4:26-27) God's word also tells us that Paul said to the church in one of his letters to give no place to the devil and this was written to Christians/believers, jew or gentile... Implying you can indeed give place to the devil which in turn means his demons. Then you must ask the question what place? Which is referring to your temple. God's word also tells us demons consider us their homes... (Matthew 12:44-45) Meaning inside not on top of or on the outside of no that means within not to mention all the demons cast (out) of people throughout scriptural history. (Ephesians 6:12) Then you also just take in consideration we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. So we are in a spiritual fight, your not just saved and never struggle against the demonic your wrestling against them and even the flesh the flesh is wicked all on its own (Romans 7:18 and Galatians 5:17). So what would you make of any of this? What do you think that I have the Holy Spirit so I'm never capable of struggling with sin? Wrong, no one is perfect no not one the only sinless person was Jesus Christ himself (Romans 3:10) .So if you struggle with sin even something simple like anger what is it? It could possibly be the flesh acting up. But okay if you give into your flesh and give into anger does that not reflect something demonic since it's not of God and your literally giving in to it or giving yourself over to it? What are you giving in to or giving yourself over to or like God words said giving place to? Its definitely not God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. We're talking unholy unjust anger here by the way not no anger of God or righteous anger obviously. So would that not allow the chance that your giving place to the devil in that area? Because obviously it wasnt under the control of the Holy Spirit because that's not the fruit of the Holy Spirit in fact the fruit of the Spirit is self control (Galatians 5:22-23) so if your not reflecting self control but rather losing control and giving yourself over to evil ways what does this mean... I'm not going to say everything is a demon and everything gives a possibility to come under demonization but it is scriptural just look into it, ask God to guide you through His Holy Spirit and teach you what is His truth ask for wisdom he tells us if we ask for wisdom he will give it to us (James 1:5) dont be led by me or anyone else. Search your Bible don't just listen to people, listen to God, listen to His word. It's all there but that's the problem is people don't do that, they just listen to people and what sounds good or what they want to believe for their own benefit or even simply out of laziness or lack of dedication. But that's not how knowledge and wisdom of the scriptures work. Truth is truth. Especially when you can also see through your own experience, or the experiences of other seasoned Christians. Don't hear me wrong tho our experiences aren't over God's word but if it lines up with His word and it's clearly there then you can guarantee it's true regardless of what you been taught by whoever throughout the years. And after all this remember the main point is it's backed by God's word and possession and demonization are not the same nor biblically accurate. Possession implies ownership and the world also paints a picture of possession in a way that not scriptural either which also is another thing that makes people skeptical and doubt (which isnt necessarily bad God does say to test all things (Thessalonians 5:21). Demonization can be something simple as having an addiction or struggling with anger or it can be serious just as the man in the graveyard demonized by several demons that were making him cut himself (yes i know he did not have the Holy Spirit it had not been poured out yet this is just an example of an extreme of demonization). Just please do your research yourself check your Bible don't believe just whatever you hear that's a part of the whole problem in this and many other disagreements. I love you brothers and sisters even tho we may disagree that doesn't mean we're not on the same side and have the same Lord we can healthily disagree and have a conversation. We let the devil divide us too often and don't even know how to healthily disagree and have a discussion without it coming to name calling or this that and the other. Which is a whole other problem we have in the body of Christ. Anyways may God bless you and guide you on your walk with Him.
Montanus did not deny the Trinity. Paraxeas did and montanus got blamed for it. Ireneaus endorsed montanus. John wesley also said that after he extensively researched it he found the Montanist were misinterpreted and great Christian’s
Tertullian was a Montanist. Perpetua and Felicity were Montanist. Heck, modern charismatics have identical theology to Montanist in many ways. You guys would be modern Montanist
Those quotes seem, without context given to us listeners, to go against yalls perspective. There was an attempt made to teach demonization, but I think it fell without Scripture because quoting church fathers and pushing tradition is a Roman Catholic kind of trap, so let’s be careful to prove doctrinal stances without Scripture. All Scriptures that were brought up, weren’t interpreted well or exegetically explained. Definitely some reading into Scriptures I’d say 😉
Also, not a demon denier guy here or whatever, more open to it but cautious to understand demonology to how Scripture dictates, not how the early church understood demons, because we all know, as early as the first century there was tons of misunderstandings of doctrines that we would consider to be elementary today. Continue the good work, and God bless
There isn’t one scripture that shows a Holy Spirit filled person w a demon. During Jesus’s ministry, clearly anyone Jesus cast a demon out of didn’t have the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit (w exception to a couple prior to Pentecost, Jesus being one) hadn’t been poured out until 10 days after He ascended. The apostles are not seen casting out demons of those w the Holy Spirit either.
Deceived, influenced etc. are a far cry from Strong’s G1139.
This is your guys's worst take yet.
-The example of the women saying "I didn't know I was doing that, then bold face come back and say she doesn't want it cast out", is 100% evidence she's not a believer.
-The AG is wrong about these folks losing salvation, these are unsaved. If you cast out by the power of the Holy Spirit, how can you then make the claim the Holy Spirit is powerless to stop the indwelling of a foreign spirit. That's bordering on blasphemy. If you have been transferred from the domain of darkness into Christ's dominion, where Christ rules, how can you say there is another ruler. And if you say that the Scottish lady willingly sought refuge from a foreign power, aren't you admitting she isn't under Christ's rule and refuge?
-Using the word demonization as meaning demonic oppression, as a justification of saying that Christians can get demons cast out of them is utterly incorrect because you are using the word "cast out" just as wrong as someone using the word possession when it doesn't occur in Scripture. A true believer may have varying degrees of oppression, but it does not indwell the believer. You can see some manifestation of evil influence and a sort of attachment (usually associated with a sin) and attempted harassment but that is not "possession".
-1 John is absolutely clear about the circumstances that you can use to identify authentic belief and trying to play footsy with Matthew 7. Really?
-The example of the lady asking her pastor to pray for her to get deliverance, is not evidence she is saved. Many came to Jesus to get healed then walked away. Saying "I know you and I baptized you" doesn't guarantee regeneration. You would have to give an example where someone is walking demonstrably in the Spirit and they start foaming at the mouth. That's utterly unheard of.
-Having sin/divination caused attachment is also not unheard of that doesn't mean the individual is possessed and something is cast out of them. It's off of them.
Josh: "This is Tartulian; this is not some off-brand, Great Value church father" 😂
A few comments, 1st century Judea was Jewish, not Christian. Holy Spirit not present yet. Also, listening to interviews of actual exorcists, genuine posession is quite rare in the U.S.
Man u guys never let Miller finish his story and so some constructive criticism some times you guys dont let each other finish what they are saying and that can get frustrating..but i agree with the position christains can get demonized and i know it to be true because iv seen it myself so im glad you guys are bringing truth and clarity to this controversial but important topic
There seems to be a war of terms and words centered around the word oppression.
Instead to prevent confusion perhaps the words internal and external oppression should be used from there a conversation can take place.
And there is also a confusion or lack of clarification when bible verses are used regarding weather the Bible verse can be a support or an exaple of an opinion regarding the relationship and position of the Holy Spirit in the passage.
To clarify, if you are going to say that a believer who has the Holy Spirit within them, you must bring an example of an individual that has the holy spirit within them under the new covenant that is also show to have a demon or evil spirit inside them. This is something i have yet to hear from anyone who has stated that a demon/evil spirit can be internally oppressing a spirit filled believer.
Let me clarify i believe a demon/evil spirit can externally oppress or attack a spirit filled believer.
I apologize if i got to wordy i still appreciate yall in what you are able to do.
Regarding Peter, he hadn't been baptised in the Holy Spirit when he made those declarations... food for thought?
Saul wasn't tormented by a Spirit because he eyed David. he was tormented by a spirit because he disobeyed God.🤣 you so crazy
Pretty good stuff. They kinda ignored and didn’t answer questions from the guy who didn’t believe Christian’s could be possessed and then just stopped and acted like he was being rude when he corrected them, about if you sin you are being possessed but then ended it real quick 😂. Seems kinda wrong but overall pretty good.
The Number 1 Verse is 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 to argue for Christian's having demons.
Just a little love note to you three from a 50+yr Christ follow. I have learned so much Biblical teaching from RR. I have enjoyed reading some of your book referrals such as "The King Jesus Gospel" "Men and Women in Christ" etc. As a long time member and deacon in my AG church I have been praying we will practice the gifts of the Holy Spirit more not just believe in them as I have heard you mention. I pray for you, your families and your miniseries to continue father up and farther in with Jesus. I am so blessed to see you young men leading the body of Christ.
Thank you! Blessings to you, as well.
Paul had a thorn in the flesh. Could that be a demonic attack?
I doubt it. The point of his thorn in the flesh was to keep him humble after the rather extraordinary experiences he'd had, eg being called up to paradise etc. Demons dont keep people humble.
@@PC-vg8vn Paul clearly mentions a demon harassing him within the context of the thorn: "And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, _a messenger of Satan to buffet me_ , lest I be exalted above measure." The demon kept Paul humble because it made him rely on God for strength, not unlike the time Saul harassed David for almost 20 yrs.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 Youre assuming 'messenger of satan' equals demon. Your own example is of a man, not a demon. It could also have been a physical disease, reminding Paul he was just a human as fragile as any other person - thus keeping him humble.
Chucks view is based on once saved always saved understanding that first helps with the teaching
Jesus said, “healing is the children’s bread” in the context deliverance. Meaning?
Great show! Part 2, please!
Michael Miller I need to talk to you because I broke up with my boyfriend 💔
Its an interesting subject! My brother in law completely turned away from his faith and I'm sure he was influenced by the devil
Gods Holy Spirit is greater than any other spirit...
How do you differentiate from real demons and people faking it? A lot of people want attention and there’s definitely man who fake this stuff. How do you tell?
We welcome believers from different backgrounds on to the show, where we engage in theological discussions. We don't always agree with our guests, but we're eager to learn how different traditions interpret the Scriptures. We provide the discussion, so you can decide.
This was so good! I was actually curious about the woman in Scotland that Miller prayed for and why she wanted to "keep" the demon, such as what it was protecting her from and why the protection of Christ wouldn't be better. I understand he may not be able to share, though. I pray she comes to trust Christ more fully.
Someone wanting to keep a demon doesn't negate the power of God, see the story of Paul and the slave girl with the spirit of divination
Yes any sin opens doors. The bible Gods word tells us whatnis sin.
Why did Christ refer to deliverance as the children's bread?
Abraham daughter Luke 13:10:17
I’m sorry, but I can’t agree with you here guys. There is not a single example of a born again believer in scripture that is delivered from a demon. Isn’t scripture sufficient for all our doctrine? Why is it not taught as doctrine if it’s a big part of our church life?
Luke 13, daughter of Abraham is demonized. That doesn’t just mean Jewish. It means a saved person. Compare w Luke 19:9
@@michaelrowntree2005 that’s why I specified born again. Like indwelt with the Holy Spirit. That is the demographic in question. Not Old Testament believers.
@@ArcticBlits I believe OT believers were born again but that’s a different debate :)
@@michaelrowntree2005It is true, it might technically be a different debate. However, I think your argument heavily relies on whether old testament believers had the Holy Spirit directly in them. So it is pertinent to discuss it. Although, I realize it might a larger debate then you have time for in RUclips comments, so I understand not wanting to delve too deep into the subject.
I would argue we have ample evidence that only specific individuals in the old testament had the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, why was the day of Pentecost necessary? Wouldn't everyone in the upper room already have the Holy Spirit since they were believers in Christ already?
but that's not the same as the Holy Spirit having taken up residence in the individual. I thought you had said yourself elsewhere that the Holy Spirit operated differently in OT times, such as equipping prophets etc? Or perhaps it was the other Michael.@@michaelrowntree2005
Honestly. It depends on the AG Church.
Want to read up on church fathers, any resources?
Thank you all. Have a part 2
Amen. Jesus reigns in power ✝️✝️✝️🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
No one mentions the doctrine of spiritual circumcision .
Only 1 God the first commandment
As someone who attends a Calvary Chapel, and a few for that matter, I find myself in a weird spot but this is epic.
I think more people need to be having this conversation and digging deeper into Gods word.
I wonder if there could be held a neutrally beneficial position between these different theologies/denominations where you could err on the side of caution (why not pray for someone who thinks they have a demon) without discounting the authority of scripture if that makes sense. I dont know if thats a good idea, but it's certainly something I'm wrestling with.
Also if you're getting down to semantics, Ken Fish might say 'you're being demonized in the mind' or something like that, but who's to that thats 'inside' of you?
Maybe the only 'inside' part of you is where the holy spirit dwells?
I'll be honest though, I don't know of very many people that would have very strong counter arguments against this general idea of demonization.
And as someone who's now listened to this twice I'm just thinking out loud as I process it all.
@@megahurts2 you seem smart and cute 💁🏻♀️
If it is a thing (I’m no longer certain), and I have one; I have not been able to shake the things that plague me. Just pressing on until the resurrection one day.
Submit yourself to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Pray constantly and always give Thanksgiving to the Lord. Put on the full armor of God so that you may be able to stand against the attacks of the enemy. Let God sanctify you as you lean on him as your source for all things. Don't let the devil discourage you because you weren't able to banish your sin in an instant.
It seems like you guys are using the word demonization synonymously with oppression, so what is wrong with using the word oppression instead? Demonic oppression opens you up to thought influence from demons, you start to believe the demons thoughts as your own. You're no longer using the word of God to refute these thoughts so you come under their control. It's not the same as possession at all.
Go back to the morals of metaphysical Eden, God created everything very Good, including Adam and Eve the Serpent the Devil the deceiver introduces a lie, into the realm of good and evil, remain very good by remaining within the realm of God's rule, His truth, of listen to the lie of Lucifer, and do what he suggests disobey their Creators truth, this means that demonism includes anything that deviates from the Truth of God, in the Personality , Practices and Preaching of Him who is The Only WAY to God because He is The Only Truth of God, and is The Only Life of God, this means that the Serpent told a lie and told the truth , a lie you shall not die, and the truth, you will be equal with God, as we read in Genesis chapter 3v22, the Man has become as One of us knowing good and evil, so the only way to remain very good and have eternal life is by total obedience to the truth of God revealed in God's sent Son
Hi i dont want just anyone to lay hands on me but im suffering a lot and have been born again since 1978. Any ideas of who can help pray with me? Im in connecticut..
God bless you!❤