Luke 13 is not a good reference to prove Christians being demonized as Jesus had not yet died or risen or given the indwelling holy spirit so it is not the same situation.
@@joshtrif5885 yes, but there is no scripture to prove Christians cannot be demonized. It's an assumption we jump to trying to derive an allusion from the epistles. Christian or no Christian, people are demonized both inside and out. When people refer to the word possession, they mean controlled and taken over by a demon, as opposed to a demon causing sickness or affliction. How can, for instance, the spirit of infirmity cause sickness in a Christian who has the Holy Spirit in them? How can sickness be allowed if the Holy Spirit dwells there? We have it all wrong.
@@joshtrif5885 Having the Holy Spirit in no way means we are free from demons, but now we have the power, as well as the Name of Jesus Christ to cast them out.
With all due respect, my dear brothers at Remnant radio.... you say you do not believe that a Christian can be possessed, yet you do believe that a Christian can have a demon take control of their body and speak through them? Can you explain how that's not possession again? Please, explain it to me like I'm slow. Because having a demon take control of your body and speak through you is pretty much the definition of possession.
The remnant guys simply said that the word “possession” is not found in the Bible. It is a tradition we have created. Because of this they said that demons cannot “possess” you, but you can be “demonized” because we see evidence for that in scripture
“We do not deny that there are many demons upon the Earth. However, we maintain that they exist and exercise power among the wicked, as a punishment for their wickedness. But they have no power over those who have put on the whole armor of God, who have received strength to withstand The Wiles of the devil.“ Origen 4.652
The argument of demons being uncorporial, a) contradicts Michael's earlier point where he quotes Paul about giving a physical space to the devil, and b) contradicts the ever present idea throughout scriptures that the spiritual realm is highly territorial: a few examples being; Jesus and the swine situation, David complaining that Saul condemned him to go serve other gods by making him run away to gentile cities, archangel michael arguing with satan regarding moses' body since he died and was buried in the wilderness, aka outside of sacred space. The very idea of sacred space, Israel being Yahweh's portion.
Assuming that believers can be demonized, how does that impact those denominational, non-denominational, interdenominational, or independent churches that hold to a memorialist view of baptism and communion? Many of these churches (and possibly some churches that hold these rites as sacraments) do not include exorcism as part of the baptismal process. What is the impact of baptizing a believer that is demonized on the believer and/or on the demon? What is the impact of partaking in communion on a believer that is demonized and/or on the demon? Even if there is no direct physical or spiritual presence in the elements, if Christ is inherently present at the service (vis-à-vis Matthew18:20), can truly only be memorial?
Not all of us have the support of capable leaders who can use discernment and appropriate scriptures to cast out demons. If you think you are oppressed or overcome with an evil spirit .. it can only get a foothold when it has garbage to cling to or feed on. If the sin is acknowledged and repented of and turned away from then I don’t think it can have a stronghold. We as individuals can repent of and flee the sin and call upon the Lord to help us.
The difference is in the Bible it tells Christians to do something ABOUT DEMON ATTACKS such as cast down imaginations which exalt against the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Many Christian don't deal with attacks from the devil by what instructions are given in the Bible such as James telling Christians to Submit to God, resist the devil, clean your hands, purify your hearts. It does not tell you to cast the devil out of Christians but even in Ephesians when we talk about the weapons of our warfare, one of the most important words that come up continually is to STAND. The Bible tells the Christian to STAND not cast out. Malcolm Smith has a great talk on handling many of the problems Christians face. Deliverance ministry is needed to help and pray for Christians but not cast out demons and ultimately the Christian must learn to stand against the devil. If anything, ask God to open the eyes of your understanding as written in the first chapter of Ephesians.
Amen and Halleluyah! I feel so encouraged by your comments. So many are being deceived by this doctrine of demons. They want us to believe that demons can be cast out of a Believer and that the believer will have the demon speak through their mouth while it is being cast out. That is full-blown possession
@@GGallion7 this is very incomplete. You have to do both, there is no way around it. Cast out and then stand. We are not doing things in order, which is why we have such issues today.
I think the first thing that needs to be established before tackling this topic/issue is establishing clear definition's and perspectives, what I mean by perspective is there are many people and denominations that claim to be Christian but aren't so we can't assume because they are so called Christians so they can't be possessed, even people who think they are saved and claim to be can be deceived. So based on that alone I think we need to be very careful and define EXACTLY who can be possessed and not use a blanket term like Christian. Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Man, I find that I sometimes don't know how to make sense of my spiritual attack situations. For example, I can look back and say I went through a period I'd consider pretty dark/rough and in that I realized that the enemy was at work. It almost got me to the point where I felt like some of my thoughts weren't even my own, it was very very oppressive and overall just dark. Stuff also kept falling over in my home in places where I had dreams about demons being present/attacking me. When I was single way back in this home I even felt things sitting on my bed and then getting off (which woke me up). While this had been going on for years, it got to the point where it was no longer 'random' and I even watched my security camera moving on video (as well as things falling). My kids were even having night terrors in the same time frame some of these things were happening... The straw that broke the camels back was when a VERY large glass cup fell in my living room and I prayed with the assumption that the home had a demon. After that, I prayed for confirmation and the very next night had a dream 3 demons were trying to get inside which I had tricked into going outside(I locked the door behind them). Shortly after that my wife had essentially the same dream where waves of demons were trying to get back into the home and slamming into all the outside walls. While there's more to the story thats sort of the condensed version. I can honestly say, NOTHING has fallen over like it was before and it's been half a year. (Use to happen daily where things would fall into the bathtub and make a racket) Also all those dark oppressive thoughts and weird...maybe you would say spiritual stench, it's all gone. The kids have yet to have anymore bad dreams as well. All 100% gone and literally feels like the home has a different atmosphere. In that situation I could say I was demonized, but maybe more from the outside? Safe to say, I'm learning and feel like finding this channel was an answer to prayer as I was not super equipped for the above situation as well as others I've found myself in of recent. Praise God though, I can say finding this channel is also what lead to my wife being delivered and then healed of chronic depression, which is it's own crazy cool story. Obviously praise the Lord, because I didn't know what I was praying but things happened anyway lol. Awesome video though and very much appreciate the conversation!
Man the more I listen to these topics, the more I think some denominations just aren't thinking far enough ahead. Or as deeply on this topic as they could. Because when questioned, their scope of understanding is very narrow and it feels like they are missing the bigger picture. Not just biblically, but historically with the way you're quoting older church fathers etc.
@@megahurts2 I’ve been saying the same thing about churches; I mean look: Martin Luther gets the faith revelation, they break off and form their own denomination. Then Baptists get baptism revelation and break off, then another different revelation/new denomination forms etc. etc. but if you look inside these denominations, what you see is the got a revelation and went so far and then never any further. The Westlands, the Methodist, etc. etc. they all got a new revelation but then that was it. If anyone else got a revelation inside the church, they had to break off I suppose. And if you look at all churches, and each assembly it seems like you can grow just so much and then there’s a plateau everybody in that church reaches. I find it very frustrating. And I know I myself don’t give myself holy and completely to God like I should, but I somehow would expect more out of a group of people who gather to worship in obedience and openness. And yes, I do go to church. I’m just not happy with any church. I feel like we should be so much further along, and are just… Missing it!
Here's another simple question to ask those who don't believe Christians can have demons: Why would anybody, including Jesus and the apostles, ever need to cast demons out of anybody? All they would need to do is lead the person to faith and the demons would immediately be gone once they believed. Deliverance/exorcism would not even be a thing.
In the space of 5 minutes we go from Roundtree exegeting demonization as space and physicality to Josh interjection that demons are non coporeal and don't take up space. Which is it?
You guys need to check out the video that Brother Chris Lasala released just on his youtube just yesterday! He is very experienced in deliverance ministry, has recently found out that the articulation God revealed to him around 8 years ago was actually also believed and expressed by Methodius of Olympus as well! His articulation is that demons dwell in peoples flesh, using Romans 7:18 as his prooftext as well!
" a Christian- I mean a true Christian, who has submitted to God and His word, will suffer nothing from demons. For he is mightier than demons. The Christian will suffer nothing, for the angel of the Lord will encamp around them who fear Him and will deliver them.“ Origen 4.653
@@Colbychristie technically Job was delivered in the end. And there's some question of whether Job had fear that was not godly because he was sacrificing on behalf of his kids, when they should have been doing that themselves. It's wasn't Job's job to keep them safe and in good standing with God.
@@Colbychristie it doesn't say they brought him the offering to sacrifice. He sacrificed without them bringing their own offering. Job 1:5 (NASB95) - When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, “Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did continually. Job did complain a little later and God rebuked him. Does that complaining, which was obviously in his heart and God knew it, disqualify him from complete protection? Who among us is completely submitted to God in all things? I'm not yet, but I'm working on it. It was incumbent upon his sons ( and all of us) to come and confess their sins to God themselves. More than once it says the kids were eating and drinking wine in their brother's house. Perhaps they should have been doing something else🤷🏼♀️ All that to say, Jesus promises us tribulation, so I don't necessarily agree with Origen either. We've been sitting psalm 91 and this is exactly the discussion we're having. Is there more we can do to secure psalm 91 promises in our current physical life? We are mightier than demons, but if we can't see the particular flavor or demon that is attacking us we can't very well defend against it either.
Well, Spurgeon had demons himself. The propaganda/mythology about him perpetuated by Calvinistic (literally idolaters) seminaries don't talk about him being a foul mouthed drunk racked with depression. Beware those who idolize men and put their false doctrines above God. Pretty sure Wilkerson did cast out demons.
regarding Paul's 'messenger of satan/thorn in the flesh' there is no way of knowing what exactly he was referring to, so it seems you have just decided it must have been a demon. It could equally have been a physical disease, mental illness such as depression, or indeed another person. Even today we often refer to 'our thorn in the flesh' as someone who is an irritant to us. The context for Paul was that he believed it was God's way of keeping him humble after his amazing experiences he had had with God (visions etc). I could imagine if Paul had a physical disease which God never healed it would be a regular reminder that he was just a human like everyone else, subject to real life and all its frailties. That would certainly have kept him humble. Your position that it was a demon also begs the question - why didnt another apostle or other Christian simply expel it from Paul? There is no record in the NT of a demon not being dealt with, unlike physical illness for example.
If believers can be demonized, then it comes down to what and who we choose to have fellowship with ( Ephesians 2:2)? So really it comes back to our sin nature correct? Are we going to choose evil over good every time unless we are born again and become a new creation in Christ?
I think sometimes people blame the demonic for their own sinful behaviour and end up seeing demons everywhere. Have an illness? - a demon. Watching porn? - spirit of lewdness. Etc Etc. If only real life was as easy as that.
@@jg7923 perhaps, but the impression being given is that that is very common, which I doubt. And there seems to be a difference between satan tempting people to sin etc, and actual demons being present, either in or on you.
Ephesians 6:10-12 Literally says that we wrestle against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realm. He was writing to regular Christians (The Church) @@PC-vg8vn
The Spirits are outside that's why we need The Armor of God. Ephesians 6:16 says to take up the shield of faith to quench all the Fiery Darts of The Wicked One. @@DavidWilkinss
One way to tell the difference between our own selves and a demon tempting / harassing us is If the temptation, thought or physical feeling is against our own will. If it's out of no where and against our own will then I believe that it is a demon causing the thought, feeling or temptation. Sometimes it is subtle though.
I’m so thankful that at the 14:30 mark you guys did clarify that you do not believe that a Christian can be *possessed* or literally taken over by a demon. The first 14 minutes, y’all had me reeaallll worried that you were basically saying an exorcism could be conducted on someone who is born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, which I think is borderline blasphemous. Thank you for clarifying that, even though I wish that would’ve been said first from the outset, lol.
The idea of “possession” isn’t even Biblical the idea is actually “energized” in the Greek. Look it up. Can Christians be energized by demons if they submit to them? Sadly yes which is why Jesus called Peter Satan when he tried to prevent His crucifixion. James also warns about ones tongue being energized by hell itself aka demons if someone isn’t careful. So it’s not about possession or ownership it’s about being submitted to an evil spirit.
They didn’t say a Christian could be taken over by a demon but they did say a Christian can be set free from demonisation - or “oppression” - because it’s a common occurrence that Christian’s do get set free from demons we see in church history and today and we see the scriptural basis for it :) blessings
From what you are saying, is there any person, Christian or otherwise, that doesn't have a demon? If the world is infested with unclean spirits who can exploit every misstep of hand, foot, or mouth to demonize even those indwelt by the Holy Spirit, then no one is safe. I, and probably everyone I know, likely has a demon. That's kind of the disturbing vibe of this video.
Walk in the Spirit and most of the time these critters won't even come near you. Sometimes you can know they are there or that you are under attack, but it doesn't amount to anything. If you are doing something which would be a wide open doorway then you need to close that down ASAP. Prayer and fasting, i.e. spiritual maturity drives out the unbelief which gives the devil quarter. Hardly anyone seems to trust the Holy Spirit for discernment anymore but if they did they'd know demons were rampant. It doesn't have to be scary. He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. Be a blinding beacon of light in the spirit world rather than a stinking rotten carcass attracting the vermin, and the majority will just scurry before you. Learn to listen to the HS and He'll tell you how to deal with the ones that don't run. Or sometimes you don't need to do anything.
Still listening through the episode but when you state that the Bible doesn’t make a differentiation between oppressed and possessed, how do you explain that some people had demons “cast out” of them? Weren’t these cases exclusively non-believers? 15:18
Satan spoke through Peter, who was a believer. When the sons of thunder wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume the Samaritans, Jesus said to them, “You know not what spirit you are of.” Finally, Satan entered Judas, who was at least a disciple and, up to that point, a believer by all outward appearances. After Pentecost, Simon the sorcerer was baptized, but his heart was still in the gall of bitterness and “the bond of iniquity.” Paul warns the believers in Corinth not to commit idolatry, or else they will “become partakers of demons.” He tells the Ephesians believers not to stay angry and “give a place to the devil.” Seems to me like Christians can have whatever they want. If they want a demon, they can have a demon.
@@NomosCharis Satan did not literally speak through Peter but the words Peter used were essentially speaking "for Satan". For instance, if I speak out of turn and with a spirit of rebellion that is me essentially speaking on behalf of a spirit of rebellion because what I said works in that spirit's favor...I did not get possessed, literally, by a spirit of rebellion.
@@lisachambers3683 Considering Christ was in the middle of his ministry, had not yet laid his life down...A Christian cannot have both Christ in his heart and a demon. You guys want to give Satan and demonic entities the same power of God and that's wild.
@@lisachambers3683 the “trinity gods?” “Every church and movement on earth is being deceived?” Except you? Are you seriously saying that everyone is deceived except you?
2 Corinthians 11:4 “For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” paul teaches you can as a Christians receive another spirit
Thank you. That was really thought-provoking. I’m wondering if these demonized believers were new converts who came to faith having preexisting demons? Could a mature Christian, who has no hidden sin and is walking with the Lord be demonized? I think it’s probably a matter of degree. Wouldn’t you say?
I used to have night terrors - my room would get errie and freezing cold - I would freeze in terror - I had to have a heart monitor put on cause I felt my heart stopping
14:04 @josh Aren't they though? I mean not material, cause a legion of demons can be in one man's body, but they went from his body to the pigs, but it seems they do take up a "house" or some type of space, at least they reside in some space but not take up space. and isn't it helpful to clarify if it IS "in" someone? Cause wouldn't you say there's times of "spiritual warfare" or just like "attacks" from the enemy like depression, anxiety, temptation, etc but it's not a demon IN them that needs to be cast out? kind of like Jesus had an "attack" in the wilderness but wasn't demonized. so we have attacks but then we also have the demon residing "in" the person which then needs to be cast out. Jesus didn't need deliverance although he was attacked/tempted by the enemy. So couldn't it be the same with us? Where we should know weather its something that needs to be cast out, or something that needs to be prayed through/fought against.
God has given you a lot of discernment and wisdom, and you are asking all the right questions. Unfortunately, many believe that those who have the Holy Spirit can also have a demon indwelling them which can control their body and speak through them. That is full-blown possession. But instead of calling it possession, they will say the demon is manifesting oh, but the only time demons manifested that way in the Bible is when people are fully possessed
So in summary of my last thought, a demon you are fighting against actively would be outside of you and not controlling your body and your faculties. If someone is casting out a demon and the demon starts speaking through the person, that means that person is fully possessed. But all Deliverance ministries, and I mean all of them, teach that this is a way that demons can speak and that it's not possession. It is the boldest face lie that the devil has ever convinced us to be true. So now we have believers believing that they can be possessed by the devil but not calling it possession. The difference between this type of possession and a spiritual attack would be in a spiritual attack you might beThe difference between this type of possession and a spiritual attack would be in a spiritual attack you might be thinking some thoughts that the devil wants you to think, but you can compare those to the word of God and get rid of them. In this possession, the demon is able to directly speak those words through your mouth. There is no filter
@@somethinggood9267 I do believe a Christian can have the Holy Spirit and a demon.... if a demon has momentary "control" during a manifestation, I wouldn't call that possession. The guy with the legion of demons was possessed. but when we are in Christ, He posses us but that doesn't mean we are perfect, because are souls and body's still need renewed. If my soul was renewed then I would never sin again, so it doesn't bother me to think a demon could reside in my body, because my body and soul still sin. My spirit is made perfect through Christ, and that's why a demon cant possess me, but he could "inhabit" me or have a place in my life where he can more easily afflict me, and to dislodge him from that place would require him being cast out.
@@Villager_of_eth you do know that people who are possessed aren't constantly controlled by demons right? They can have normal moments to and then moments where the demons completely take over. If the demon is speaking through you during a Deliverance service, that means it's possessing you, and that means it's had the power to possess you all along. Why then, in the power of all of those men of God, would it have the ability to temporarily possess you? That makes no sense. It would have had to been possessing you all along
@@DavidWilkinss they acknowledge this. But they still believe that a demon can speak through someone who is inhabited by the holy Spirit. I just have a common-sense question, why would a demon suddenly be possessing someone and speaking through them when they are getting delivered of demons that are simply oppressing them? If a demon hasn't been possessing you and controlling your body, (which includes your mouth)before Deliverance, why all of a sudden at Deliverance does it have full rein to throw you around and speak through your mouth? This does not line up with the God of the Bible I know, and the information about people who are fully possessed matches up with these descriptions of people who are getting thrown around and having demons speaking through them. But people are saying that these are born-again Christians! I know everyone is persuaded by experience, me most of all, I can be extremely emotional and empathetic and I want to hear everyone's experiences and validate them. But God has really been showing me that our experiences need to bow to him and to the word of God. We are so easily deceived by false spirits and false teachers. We really need to discern what is going on in these delivering services. I think the people that are getting thrown around and having demons speaking through them are unsaved. I'm basing this off of the Bible and off of so much prayer I've had with God. I also believe that if someone is being oppressed by demons, that is undergoing intense spiritual warfare, having people lay hands and pray on them is a wonderful thing to do! This can definitely drive demons away! I've experienced this. There is a time that I fell into a besetting sin and was overcome with shame, panic, and condemnation. I became afraid to go to church and full of anxiety that people at church would see me. I kept telling my friends how afraid I was to go to church, this is not like me. So she had some people at church pray over me. Instantly that feeling left and I was overcome with joy and restored to my normal peaceful State of mind. I could feel that demon leave as I was restored to peace. But guess what I did not experience? I did not experience being thrown around, I did not experience the demon taking control, nor did the demon have authority to speak through me. My experience is biblical, the deliverances were born again Christians are acting possessed is not biblical.
I post these to suggest that you can't use Origen, because at the very least he contradicts himself. The others provide evidence contrary to your position. Also, most of your sources are very late (after Nicea, and some centuries after). Can't really use them as orthodox.
Perhaps the early church quotes used here actually refer to entrenched sin and illness when talking about 'demons' at baptism. They were exhorting the person being baptised to live a holy life. The early church, while having great teaching, also invented all the heresy that plagues the modern church. That was why they needed church councils and creeds, to refute the false teaching. What did the reformation theologians teach on this subject? I do not see that the New Testament after pentecost, gives any emphasis on this subject at all. The gospel is central and sufficient. As Paul said, "his grace is sufficient for me".
The Bible does make a distinction between oppressed and possessed. Oppression is the spiritual warfare we contend with on a daily basis. Sometimes this Warfare is so intense that we need help from other people to fight it! But that is not to be confused with having a demon internally.
@@IndianaJoe0321 well if you read the entire New Testament, it clearly talks about spiritual warfare, not demons possessing Believers and controlling their bodies. An example of a verse regarding spiritual warfare is, submit yourself to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you. This teaches us how to treat the devil. Another Bible verse is, greater is the one who is in you than he who is in the world. Teaching us that the Holy Spirit within us is greater than the devil. If it was possible for Christians who are born again to have Demons Inside of them, the Bible would have told us that we have the Holy Spirit and also Demons Inside of us. The Bible contains everything we need for life and godliness. Please look into all the verses about spiritual warfare
Can y'all do a show on what roundtree said at min 27, justified, sanctified, glorified? I would like a deep conversation on that from y'all! Blessings on the next conf! I was at the last one and got a word that is propelling my life towards living for God
The wicked Spirits... are trodden underfoot By Us, by the power given us by the Lord. They cannot remain any longer in the body of a man who is baptized and Sanctified, in whom the Holy Spirit is beginning to dwell." Cyprian 5.402
I like how John Wimber said it. When asked if a Christian could have a demon, he reportedly answered: “Sure, a Christian can have whatever he wants. But why would you want a demon?” Lol. Great summation.
A little bit of pushback on the examples from Luke: all of those accounts were pre-Pentecost. Do we have any reason to believe that they were indwelt by the Spirit in the same manner Christians are historically-post-Pentecost? Or is it possible that's comparing apples and oranges?
Jesus would cast out demons with His own authority. Here's the verses in the gospels about Jesus casting out demons: Mt 4:24, 8:16, 8:32, 9:33, 12:22, 15:28, 17:18; Mk 1:26,34, 3:11,22, 5:13, 7:29, 9:25,38; Lk 4:35,41, 6:18, 7:21,22, 8:33, 9:42, 11:14,13:32.
@@ClunyRedwall-xo9yk Exorcists in that day would preform rituals and spells to rid people of demons. All Jesus had to do was command them out. The Pharisees did not like Jesus and were looking for something to charge him with. They probably noticed the authority Jesus had, and they tried to accuse Him of casting out demons by the power of demons.
Thank you guys for broaching this widespread problem in the Christian religion.. People who argue against this dont realize that every recipient of deliverance in the NT scriptures were of the faith.. and most display their faith as a prerequisite before receiving deliverance!
Wait a minute...where does it says that the two demoniacs in the region of the gadarenes where of the faith? Or the slave fortuneteller that confronts Paul in Acts? Or any of the other occurrences of people having a demon that throws the afflicted around?
@@JonathanEngblom even only one having faith disproves the idea that deliverance is not for believers (Mark 5:6-8 demoniac runs to Jesus and falls at his feet worshiping, then Jesus delivers him)
The Divination slave girl in acts 16:16 followed Paul for many days exclaiming that Paul and Silas were "the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation." And after many days Paul grew tired of her, and confronted and commanded a divination spirit, Python, to come out of her.
@JonathanEngblom The man who came on behalf of his son who was a lunatic and sore-vexed (and often thrown into the fire by the demon) approached to receive from the power of Jesus twice, the second time being even after his disciples failed to drive the demon out... if that's not a prior display of faith I don't know what is.
@@Joseph-Mullins the question is not whether the father believed, was the son a believer? And this was before the death and ressurection of Christ, befpre the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon all believers, they where not yet sealed by the Holy Spirit
Good video and interesting topic. Good points and bad points made. I agree with both Josh and Michael on Sola Scriptura but that ECH should not be ignored. However, it doesn't take long for one to see that the ECFs were all over the place on their theology. It must be remembered that, like any institution or organization that has been birthed, there are going to be growing pains and the early years are formative that involve falling down, skinning your knees, and picking yourself back up to move forward. The one point that I absolutely disagree with is the claim that a Believer can be "possessed" by a demon. That is logically false. A vessel can NOT be "possessed" simultaneously by opposing forces. The Believer/Christian is "possessed" by God. Indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The Unbeliever is "possessed" by Satan. Indwelt with a dead spirit that has not been quickened and therefore compelled by the Flesh, the World, and the Enemy. (Eph. 2:1-3) Thus the Believer can NOT be "possessed" by a demon or Satan himself but they can be "influenced" by such. I would have to go actually read the references Michael gave to know for sure but I suspect his "so they were literally casting spirits out" claim is false. Just based on what he said it seems that this was some form of recitation of a standard Baptismal ceremony/event. Not unlike that which is done in several more liturgical denominations. Words don't do anything. It's the belief/faith behind them that matters. One could simply regurgitate the words "I renounce Satan" and if there is no intent to do so the claim is worthless. In some ways it's synonymous with Baptismal Regeneration. The Holy Spirit is NEVER under any compulsion to act on the whims/words of ANY man. Josh is really confusing. First he says there is "fruit of Salvation" being seen and then talks about Baptismal Regeneration? What does he think Regeneration is? Anyways, overall a good, thought-provoking video that moves one to get "outside the box" for awhile. Thanks for the effort you put into this with the quotes, references, etc.
Would it be helpful to say that an exegetical argument is more of a "direct" argument, while a theological one is "Indirect" or a degree removed from the text?
Just a few references off the top of my head from Scripture that imply demons can be “inside Christians” in one way or another: Satan spoke through Peter, who was a believer. When the sons of thunder wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume the Samaritans, Jesus said to them, “You know not what spirit you are of.” Finally, Satan entered Judas, who was at least a disciple and, up to that point, a believer by all outward appearances. After Pentecost, Simon the sorcerer was baptized, but his heart was still in the gall of bitterness and “the bond of iniquity.” Paul warns the believers in Corinth not to commit idolatry, or else they will “become partakers of demons.” He tells the Ephesians believers not to stay angry and “give a place to the devil.” Finally, Paul was given a messenger of Satan “in [his] flesh,” though he was obviously a faithful believer.
I'm interested in how Roundtree determined that the "temple of God often had idols?" Deut 32 doesn't get you there. At least not to the court in which sacrifices were made. We know in Jesus's time that there was wickedness in the court where the animals were purchased. But we don't see idols in the inner courts where the sacrifices take place.Where else do we see support for that assertion? If we read anything about what is allowed in the temple, we see that God decrees death to those who would come in unclean, let alone bringing idols with them. God is the one who guards His house from evil. This should be the lesson we get from the temple. God guards His sanctuary. Jesus purges His temple from evil. Cleansing us from unrighteousness is Jesus's work. Sometimes it feels like the power of demons is elevated over the power of Christ, His gospel and our salvation. I wouldn't call his argument exegetical since he speculated frequently as to what those passages mean. Theological inferences... isn't that what he called the argument against demonic possession?
Make an exegetical argument? Ok let me try… this word that you all keep mentioning and emphasizing for demonization (daimonizomai). Yeah, It doesn’t appear again after the gospels. Not once. Not a single time. Not in Acts, not in any of the epistles. Nowhere. I wonder why that is.. perhaps it’s because of what happens in the book of Acts? What happens? Pentecost. The coming of the Holy Spirit. The inhabitation of the Holy Spirit. The filling of the Holy Spirit. We become citizens of the kingdom. New creation and citizens of the kingdom of God. Two kingdoms cannot reside in the believer. The strongman has been purged out by one that is stronger. That is Yahweh. It doesn’t mean that we do not wrestle, it doesn’t mean that we do not war, it doesn’t mean that we cannot be tempted, harassed, deceived, or accused. Which we would call oppressed. Of course not. This absolutely can and does happen to believers. (Peter tempted, Apostles martyred, etc..) BUT… it does mean a loyal follower of Jesus cannot be inhabited by demons. I don’t care with a Church Father said, their context is not the context of scripture. Nor are their writings and literature Inspired by the Spirit. It’s not scripture. Helpful, sure, maybe.. but not God breathed.
If church history weighs in heavily on Believers and our relation to Demons. How about a show on early church teachings prior to Augustine's teachings on election,predestination and free will???
@16:00, Rountree, you do know that Origen also believed and taught that that the devil himself will end up being restored to communion with God. With all due respect, who gives a rip what Origen thought about the devil and demons. And you’re making neither exegetical or theological arguments. You’re reading YOUR opinion into the text which is eisegesis and using your own experience and references like Origen for heaven sakes to make your point.. Good Lord..
Origin also taught the "premortality/pre-existence of the soul" view, as Kat Kerr teaches!!.. that we were once long ago little spirit beings inside the Father until we were sent down (like hindu demigods) to be incarnated with a fleshly body. Mormons embrace that idea as well. And ..oh.. how the New Age movement loves these mystical sounding doctrines floating around lately among many of the hypercharisma sensationlism /personal experience driven crowds!
Why is there no examples or instruction of exorcisms at baptism in the New Testament? At what point is this adding to the scriptures in early church history? Lots of quotes fromearly church fathers that had no references from Scripture why they believed this.
The major PUSHBACK argument that;'s being given especially nowadays is that ...."THERE is NO example in the bible from the book of ACTS forward of "BORN AGAIN SPIRIT FILLED CHRISTIANS" having indwelling demons cast out of them............WHAT SAY YOU to that. because that's the point that needs to be addressed........I would say that a whole SHOW needs to be done addressing that argument alone.
Is there anyone who could answer questions about demons? Why do they come & scare you? Talk & stuff. I pray daily! I'm a Christian so I don't understand. I'm trying to grow but these things cause doubt. I have no one to ask & I'm told not to bc I'll sound crazy and embarrass people...or I'm told it's bc I'm crazy even though others have witnessed it.. Are there different kinds? Do some only respond to men? So many questions..
" in fact, (the demons) do injure some, but only those by whom they are feared. For the powerful and lofty hand of God does not protect such ones, for they have not been initiated in the sacrament of Truth. However, the demons fear the righteous, the worshippers of God. When adjured by the name of God, they depart from the bodies... They cannot speak falsely either to God, (by whom they are adjured) , or to the righteous, by whose voice they are tormented. Therefore, often times they have uttered the greatest howls. They cry out that they are beaten and are on fire... So whom can they injure, other than those whom they have in their own power?" Lactantius 7.65
“Son of Abraham means a saved person” absolutely not lol it says “do not say we have Abraham as our father because God is able from these stones to bring up children from Abraham” Mathew 3:9. So salvation is something to brag about God tells us in Jeremiah “let not the strong boast in his strength… but let him who boast boast in this that he knows me and understands me” Jeremiah 9 I believe. So if the Jews were told not to brag about being sons of Abraham then obviously it doesn’t mean salvation. Remnant radio is so wrong sometimes it’s shocking, but I still love them.
I agree about the meaning of "Abraham as our father" in Matthew, as quoted by John the Baptist was referring to Jewish ethnicity. The Baptist warned them not to use their ethnicity as a reason for not needing to repent. But it is clear that the Gospel writers did assign specific meanings to phrases within their Gospels. The point Mike was making was that Luke used certain phrases to refer to covenant believers. Mike mentioned at 7:20 when Luke used "being a daughter of Abraham" (Lk 13:16), he was referring to her as a covenant believer, not to her ethnicity. The woman was not antagonistic towards Jesus, she was a victim of Satan’s physical binding (infirmity). Jesus didn't tell her to repent after he healed her. Luke later announced that Zacchaeus the tax collector (a Jew who extorted Jews) became a child of Abraham after he believed. “And Jesus said to him, Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham” (Lk 19:9). John the Baptist, Luke, and Jesus never conflated being an ethnic child of Abraham with being a covenant child of Abraham, as you noted. The Apostle John used the term "Jews" in a similar manner. Often John used it to refer to the religious leaders (scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians) in Israel who were opposed to Jesus, not to the audience's ethnicity. Leon Morris wrote in his commentary, The Gospel According to John, the following: “But much more often he uses it to denote the Jewish nation as hostile to Jesus.” (p. 130,131) “It is the aspect of hostility to Jesus that ‘the Jews’ primarily signifies.” (p. 131)
@@bealivingmiracle lol very good. There is something to the fact that gentiles enter into the Abraham covenant after conversion, I enjoyed your reply thank you for writing it. Sadly I do not know what my point was originally since it’s been so long since I posted it lol but I enjoyed your reply thanks
All arguments are theological arguments, even the exegetical ones. Look at any time the apostles quote the scriptures. The text in context usually has nothing to do with what they're talking about. "Out of Egypt I had called my son", Jesus' high priestgood being higher than that of Levi because Abraham gave tithe to Melchizedek, and many many more. Even Michael's counter arguments, with the indwelling sin and the idols in the temple, are purely logical arguments. Nonetheless when the jews accuse Jesus of casting out demons with the power of Beelzebub, He tells them no one can enter the house of a strong man if he doesnt tie him up first. The context is actually about demon posession, unlike the other arguments. If Jesus can tie up indwelling demons with the power of the holy spirit, the demons cannot tie up the indwelling holy spirit because of the strength discrepancy. In saying all this, I'm not arguing for the other extreme view that a believer can not be oppressed, influenced or tempted by the devil. Only that a believer can not be completely overtaken by demonic powers, as we often see described in the gospels. Which sounds like you guys hold the same opinion, so I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to prove. Pretty much everyone agrees with that.
Exactly brother...It seems the good ol boys of RR (and yes, I do Iike them and respect them highly) are stepping into a theologically confusing mess that's sadly unnecessary; they've stated clearly that they don't believe a true believer can be demon possessed... but then, they speak of casting literal demons hiding inside of believers. It just seems to me that by that,they're unintentionally giving a platform of credibility to the wildest stories told by the "demons-inside-Christians" movement! And oh , yes, there's some really bizarre tales being told here and there that truly can leave young ungrounded lambs in a tailspin of confusion wondering "how saved are they? Why would they say there's no difference between oppression and possession?.. between being harrassed/oppresses, etc OUTWARDLY by demons ,oppression ( where we are told to resist the devil who oppresses from the outside).. and instead insisting on the idea that these sinister writhing demonic creatures, though non-corporal are physically within us and must be named and expelled...It seems so dishonoring to the power of the Holy Spirit who abides within His children.. ("Greater is HE who is within you than he that is in the world") Now IF we sin so continually that we deliberately reject the Spirit and choose to not serve Him any longer, sure we can have a demon return and reside within...but that's another issue
Michael R seems rather irrittated at the start, trying to defend his views. But I found most of his examples irrelevant to a believer having a demon 'inside' their being. He was confusing, for example, sin and demons as if they are the same thing. Theyre not.
What do you guys do with the fact that the church fathers believe in baptism regeneration? They dont believe people where part of the church before baptism! And why you choose what to believe as when you use Aquinas to show what you believe about demons and christias but not the remedies he uses? I am protestant too but have been reading church fathers and discovering how far from the early church most protestant are!
Guys, so let’s follow your logic to its natural conclusion, based on this discussion. The Apostle Paul had a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan. That would indicate he was ‘demonized’, a physical ‘place’ (as you say) or a foothold. Yet, God’s grace was sufficient for him. So, one would have to conclude that sometimes God’s will would be that some believers remain ‘demonized’. In fact, Paul would glory in his demonization. I just can’t go down that road with you. 🙏
Very good logic. As God allowed Satan to afflict Job but Job wasn't demonized and have it cast out! Unbelievers can be demo ized, not true believers. We resist the devil and remain faithful to God.
First disciples would have understood the legions and the 153 great ones. Check it out yourself. Temple of Dagon the word there for "-full" has a second meaning which is 144. And "there" were women "there." That redundant second "there" has another translation, too, which is 8. (I'm thinking these fallen angels were members of the elohim before they fell. 8 possibly refers to those who had previously taken 8 steps as compared to Uzza's 6) These were the giants. And there would be one priest. A total of 153 "great ones." Now, how is it that this floor was full and there were legions on the other floor. Jesus makes a point of letting us know this one net was full with 153 fish called great ones and had previously tore with a slew of fish. It is also known that Octavian had commissioned an altar built to Dagon in Lyon, Gaul. Dag is Hebrew for "wag back and forth." For this reason Adam gave fish the name "Dag." Octavians other altar was at the east and is to Apollyon (i think.) This idol included the horse whose head bobs up and down. Satan comes from that word because of heads of wheat that also bob up and down. I think Pergamum was the head of a beast empire and Lyon the tail. Satan and Diablos may be two different entities. They both lie, but in different ways. Jesus cleaned up Israel. The demons of Asia were left to others. I suppose you guys are dealing with demons unique to America.
BUT IF THERE IS A GHOST, EVEN THE GHOST OF A KID, IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS SATAN TOO, , "THIS PROGRAM IS STILL UNDER THE CLASS OF SHAMAN AND MAGICIAN. ??
Some excellent conversations here, as usual, everything from practical holiness to the Church fathers, to ecumenical issues, how to weigh all the available evidence and arrive at something like an orthodox answer. Many times I've seen our more Reformed brothers appeal to a sin "nature." This is not our human nature to be utterly and totally sin. Jesus became sin. That is scripture. Nowhere is Adam called sin. He is sinFUL. We are fallen, yes, but not utterly and totally abject, without any glimmer of our former estate. We were and are created in the image of God. That is our nature. As such, we have freewill. It is not total free agency. No one can do whatever they please. It is sufficient freewill. We have a knowledge of right and wrong. This is a consequence of fallenness. Adam and Eve existed in innocence. The knowledge of good and evil was the forbidden fruit. Some Baptist documents I have read appeal to a fully intimated law given to Adam. This is not scriptural. The Westminster Confession speaks of a covenant of works. This is not scriptural. Rather the law is the covenant that was given. The one which Christ fulfills. He also fulfils the PROMISE (also a covenant but different wording is used) given to Abraham. All this is off topic. But if we don't understand the basics how will we understand spiritual things like demons? The law is entirely fulfilled in Christ. There is no division between 'Moral" and "Ceremonial." All points to Christ, "our passover" who "has been slain." Pentecost too is fulfilled, 50 days after the resurrection, when the Holy Spirit is given to the Church. To stay. "He will be with you forever." Good job to our brothers in Christ who are leading the way into a new Reformation. Repent, and believe the Gospel, the full gospel, all of it, all of us!
Gabrielt made a very solid case that contradicts the "Demon Slayers" doctrine.Of course, Christians can become oppressed and outwardly vexed or harrassed, or buffeted by demonic influences etc but that is a far cry from having a demonic creature writhing inside our body parts ...as " Linda Blair in "The Exorcist growling in a man's voice "I will not come out!" ..And I might add, the idea of Christians having indwelling demons was NOT at all taught by very godly ministers of the Gospel during those wonderous moves of God of revival in the 1800a when thousands would come Christ under the Gospel proclamation of those like Wesley, Whitfield ,Finny, Johnathan Edwards, Dwight Moody etc etc...(And no they didn't have to have attendants helping the demon slayer minister put out "vomit cans " in preparation for the circus events and casting out demons from these radiantly born again believers! )Something is wrong in this teaching. "The teaching/preaching of the Cross is the power of God unto salvation!"
This video seriously disappointed me. 1 Corinthians 10:21 literally says you can’t partake of both. That’s what it says. So it’s not a good exegesis of that passage at all. Using the daughter of Abraham and comparing her to zaccheus doesn’t work either. It’s a simple statement that she was a Religious Jew. Not a new covenant born again believer. Terrible exegetical argument. Also, there are many things we believe today that the church fathers didn’t. We don’t get to pick and choose what we like and what we don’t and then tell everyone they’re wrong if they don’t agree with Calvinism wasn’t super popular until it’s spreading the 16th century, yet Sam storms is a Calvinist, even though several church fathers would disagree. I don’t think these are great arguments.
Luke 13 is not a good reference to prove Christians being demonized as Jesus had not yet died or risen or given the indwelling holy spirit so it is not the same situation.
When Jesus sent out the 70, He said rejoice instead your names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Was He dead?
@@gvernbushHoly Spirit still not there yet. Abraham, Moses and etc were saved through faith. But didn’t have the empowerment of the holy spirt
@@joshtrif5885 yes, but there is no scripture to prove Christians cannot be demonized. It's an assumption we jump to trying to derive an allusion from the epistles.
Christian or no Christian, people are demonized both inside and out. When people refer to the word possession, they mean controlled and taken over by a demon, as opposed to a demon causing sickness or affliction.
How can, for instance, the spirit of infirmity cause sickness in a Christian who has the Holy Spirit in them? How can sickness be allowed if the Holy Spirit dwells there?
We have it all wrong.
@@joshtrif5885 Having the Holy Spirit in no way means we are free from demons, but now we have the power, as well as the Name of Jesus Christ to cast them out.
@@gvernbush lol great to know. No need for deliverance ministries then.
With all due respect, my dear brothers at Remnant radio.... you say you do not believe that a Christian can be possessed, yet you do believe that a Christian can have a demon take control of their body and speak through them? Can you explain how that's not possession again? Please, explain it to me like I'm slow. Because having a demon take control of your body and speak through you is pretty much the definition of possession.
I was just about to ask the same question. Sounded like double talk and self contradiction.
@@gabrielt721 it makes no sense.
They always talk out both sides of their mouth. That’s what charismatics do!!!!
@@mikemuncy7464 I mean what's your definition of a charismatic
The remnant guys simply said that the word “possession” is not found in the Bible. It is a tradition we have created.
Because of this they said that demons cannot “possess” you, but you can be “demonized” because we see evidence for that in scripture
“We do not deny that there are many demons upon the Earth. However, we maintain that they exist and exercise power among the wicked, as a punishment for their wickedness. But they have no power over those who have put on the whole armor of God, who have received strength to withstand The Wiles of the devil.“ Origen 4.652
That is what happens when we go through deliverance, close all those doors, and walk in obedience with the Lord.
The argument of demons being uncorporial, a) contradicts Michael's earlier point where he quotes Paul about giving a physical space to the devil, and b) contradicts the ever present idea throughout scriptures that the spiritual realm is highly territorial: a few examples being; Jesus and the swine situation, David complaining that Saul condemned him to go serve other gods by making him run away to gentile cities, archangel michael arguing with satan regarding moses' body since he died and was buried in the wilderness, aka outside of sacred space. The very idea of sacred space, Israel being Yahweh's portion.
Assuming that believers can be demonized, how does that impact those denominational, non-denominational, interdenominational, or independent churches that hold to a memorialist view of baptism and communion? Many of these churches (and possibly some churches that hold these rites as sacraments) do not include exorcism as part of the baptismal process.
What is the impact of baptizing a believer that is demonized on the believer and/or on the demon?
What is the impact of partaking in communion on a believer that is demonized and/or on the demon?
Even if there is no direct physical or spiritual presence in the elements, if Christ is inherently present at the service (vis-à-vis Matthew18:20), can truly only be memorial?
Not all of us have the support of capable leaders who can use discernment and appropriate scriptures to cast out demons. If you think you are oppressed or overcome with an evil spirit .. it can only get a foothold when it has garbage to cling to or feed on. If the sin is acknowledged and repented of and turned away from then I don’t think it can have a stronghold. We as individuals can repent of and flee the sin and call upon the Lord to help us.
The difference is in the Bible it tells Christians to do something ABOUT DEMON ATTACKS such as cast down imaginations which exalt against the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Many Christian don't deal with attacks from the devil by what instructions are given in the Bible such as James telling Christians to Submit to God, resist the devil, clean your hands, purify your hearts. It does not tell you to cast the devil out of Christians but even in Ephesians when we talk about the weapons of our warfare, one of the most important words that come up continually is to STAND. The Bible tells the Christian to STAND not cast out. Malcolm Smith has a great talk on handling many of the problems Christians face. Deliverance ministry is needed to help and pray for Christians but not cast out demons and ultimately the Christian must learn to stand against the devil. If anything, ask God to open the eyes of your understanding as written in the first chapter of Ephesians.
Amen and Halleluyah! I feel so encouraged by your comments. So many are being deceived by this doctrine of demons. They want us to believe that demons can be cast out of a Believer and that the believer will have the demon speak through their mouth while it is being cast out. That is full-blown possession
These guys bring so much confusion. Their practices are extreme and there are so many others that say the early church fathers teach the opposite
@@GGallion7 this is very incomplete. You have to do both, there is no way around it. Cast out and then stand. We are not doing things in order, which is why we have such issues today.
I think the first thing that needs to be established before tackling this topic/issue is establishing clear definition's and perspectives, what I mean by perspective is there are many people and denominations that claim to be Christian but aren't so we can't assume because they are so called Christians so they can't be possessed, even people who think they are saved and claim to be can be deceived. So based on that alone I think we need to be very careful and define EXACTLY who can be possessed and not use a blanket term like Christian. Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Well said, thank you🙏🏼❤️
Man, I find that I sometimes don't know how to make sense of my spiritual attack situations.
For example, I can look back and say I went through a period I'd consider pretty dark/rough and in that I realized that the enemy was at work.
It almost got me to the point where I felt like some of my thoughts weren't even my own, it was very very oppressive and overall just dark.
Stuff also kept falling over in my home in places where I had dreams about demons being present/attacking me.
When I was single way back in this home I even felt things sitting on my bed and then getting off (which woke me up).
While this had been going on for years, it got to the point where it was no longer 'random' and I even watched my security camera moving on video (as well as things falling).
My kids were even having night terrors in the same time frame some of these things were happening...
The straw that broke the camels back was when a VERY large glass cup fell in my living room and I prayed with the assumption that the home had a demon.
After that, I prayed for confirmation and the very next night had a dream 3 demons were trying to get inside which I had tricked into going outside(I locked the door behind them).
Shortly after that my wife had essentially the same dream where waves of demons were trying to get back into the home and slamming into all the outside walls.
While there's more to the story thats sort of the condensed version.
I can honestly say, NOTHING has fallen over like it was before and it's been half a year.
(Use to happen daily where things would fall into the bathtub and make a racket)
Also all those dark oppressive thoughts and weird...maybe you would say spiritual stench, it's all gone.
The kids have yet to have anymore bad dreams as well.
All 100% gone and literally feels like the home has a different atmosphere.
In that situation I could say I was demonized, but maybe more from the outside?
Safe to say, I'm learning and feel like finding this channel was an answer to prayer as I was not super equipped for the above situation as well as others I've found myself in of recent.
Praise God though, I can say finding this channel is also what lead to my wife being delivered and then healed of chronic depression, which is it's own crazy cool story.
Obviously praise the Lord, because I didn't know what I was praying but things happened anyway lol.
Awesome video though and very much appreciate the conversation!
Man the more I listen to these topics, the more I think some denominations just aren't thinking far enough ahead.
Or as deeply on this topic as they could.
Because when questioned, their scope of understanding is very narrow and it feels like they are missing the bigger picture.
Not just biblically, but historically with the way you're quoting older church fathers etc.
Thank you for sharing, Brother.
@@megahurts2 I’ve been saying the same thing about churches; I mean look: Martin Luther gets the faith revelation, they break off and form their own denomination. Then Baptists get baptism revelation and break off, then another different revelation/new denomination forms etc. etc. but if you look inside these denominations, what you see is the got a revelation and went so far and then never any further. The Westlands, the Methodist, etc. etc. they all got a new revelation but then that was it. If anyone else got a revelation inside the church, they had to break off I suppose. And if you look at all churches, and each assembly it seems like you can grow just so much and then there’s a plateau everybody in that church reaches. I find it very frustrating. And I know I myself don’t give myself holy and completely to God like I should, but I somehow would expect more out of a group of people who gather to worship in obedience and openness. And yes, I do go to church. I’m just not happy with any church. I feel like we should be so much further along, and are just… Missing it!
Even the demoniac in Mark 5:6 worshipped Jesus BEFORE being delivered by him in Mark 5:8.
Here's another simple question to ask those who don't believe Christians can have demons: Why would anybody, including Jesus and the apostles, ever need to cast demons out of anybody? All they would need to do is lead the person to faith and the demons would immediately be gone once they believed. Deliverance/exorcism would not even be a thing.
When I became a catechumen, I also was exorcised
Yep my first couple months after Christ were filled with numerous deliverance.
In the space of 5 minutes we go from Roundtree exegeting demonization as space and physicality to Josh interjection that demons are non coporeal and don't take up space. Which is it?
I really enjoyed this talk! Thanks a lot!
You guys need to check out the video that Brother Chris Lasala released just on his youtube just yesterday! He is very experienced in deliverance ministry, has recently found out that the articulation God revealed to him around 8 years ago was actually also believed and expressed by Methodius of Olympus as well! His articulation is that demons dwell in peoples flesh, using Romans 7:18 as his prooftext as well!
Indeed!
I posted the link yesterday but its not showing
" a Christian- I mean a true Christian, who has submitted to God and His word, will suffer nothing from demons. For he is mightier than demons. The Christian will suffer nothing, for the angel of the Lord will encamp around them who fear Him and will deliver them.“ Origen 4.653
I Guess he forgot about the book of Job. Paul was afflicted by a messenger of Satan. Lolololol
@@Colbychristie technically Job was delivered in the end. And there's some question of whether Job had fear that was not godly because he was sacrificing on behalf of his kids, when they should have been doing that themselves. It's wasn't Job's job to keep them safe and in good standing with God.
@@MsBellsandy he was a Godly man who was a priest to his household. People didn’t sacrifice on their own usually a priest would.
@@Colbychristie it doesn't say they brought him the offering to sacrifice. He sacrificed without them bringing their own offering. Job 1:5 (NASB95) - When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, “Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did continually.
Job did complain a little later and God rebuked him. Does that complaining, which was obviously in his heart and God knew it, disqualify him from complete protection? Who among us is completely submitted to God in all things? I'm not yet, but I'm working on it.
It was incumbent upon his sons ( and all of us) to come and confess their sins to God themselves. More than once it says the kids were eating and drinking wine in their brother's house. Perhaps they should have been doing something else🤷🏼♀️
All that to say, Jesus promises us tribulation, so I don't necessarily agree with Origen either. We've been sitting psalm 91 and this is exactly the discussion we're having. Is there more we can do to secure psalm 91 promises in our current physical life? We are mightier than demons, but if we can't see the particular flavor or demon that is attacking us we can't very well defend against it either.
Hey guys, have a debate on this topic. It’s so important.
What would the two sides of the debate be?
So did CH Spurgeon, DL Moody and David Wilkerson have deliverance services for believers? If not, would you consider them ‘negligent’ Pastors?
Well, Spurgeon had demons himself. The propaganda/mythology about him perpetuated by Calvinistic (literally idolaters) seminaries don't talk about him being a foul mouthed drunk racked with depression. Beware those who idolize men and put their false doctrines above God.
Pretty sure Wilkerson did cast out demons.
It makes total sense that a demon corresponds to a body part as a demon is a “bodiless entity“ that needs to work out what it wants through a body.
regarding Paul's 'messenger of satan/thorn in the flesh' there is no way of knowing what exactly he was referring to, so it seems you have just decided it must have been a demon. It could equally have been a physical disease, mental illness such as depression, or indeed another person. Even today we often refer to 'our thorn in the flesh' as someone who is an irritant to us. The context for Paul was that he believed it was God's way of keeping him humble after his amazing experiences he had had with God (visions etc). I could imagine if Paul had a physical disease which God never healed it would be a regular reminder that he was just a human like everyone else, subject to real life and all its frailties. That would certainly have kept him humble.
Your position that it was a demon also begs the question - why didnt another apostle or other Christian simply expel it from Paul? There is no record in the NT of a demon not being dealt with, unlike physical illness for example.
If believers can be demonized, then it comes down to what and who we choose to have fellowship with ( Ephesians 2:2)? So really it comes back to our sin nature correct? Are we going to choose evil over good every time unless we are born again and become a new creation in Christ?
I think sometimes people blame the demonic for their own sinful behaviour and end up seeing demons everywhere. Have an illness? - a demon. Watching porn? - spirit of lewdness. Etc Etc.
If only real life was as easy as that.
But sometimes it is literally demons that are waring against you, tormenting you and tempting you.
@@jg7923 perhaps, but the impression being given is that that is very common, which I doubt. And there seems to be a difference between satan tempting people to sin etc, and actual demons being present, either in or on you.
Ephesians 6:10-12 Literally says that we wrestle against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realm. He was writing to regular Christians (The Church) @@PC-vg8vn
The Spirits are outside that's why we need The Armor of God. Ephesians 6:16 says to take up the shield of faith to quench all the Fiery Darts of The Wicked One. @@DavidWilkinss
One way to tell the difference between our own selves and a demon tempting / harassing us is If the temptation, thought or physical feeling is against our own will. If it's out of no where and against our own will then I believe that it is a demon causing the thought, feeling or temptation. Sometimes it is subtle though.
I’m so thankful that at the 14:30 mark you guys did clarify that you do not believe that a Christian can be *possessed* or literally taken over by a demon. The first 14 minutes, y’all had me reeaallll worried that you were basically saying an exorcism could be conducted on someone who is born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, which I think is borderline blasphemous. Thank you for clarifying that, even though I wish that would’ve been said first from the outset, lol.
Well they do believe Christians can have demons.
The idea of “possession” isn’t even Biblical the idea is actually “energized” in the Greek. Look it up. Can Christians be energized by demons if they submit to them? Sadly yes which is why Jesus called Peter Satan when he tried to prevent His crucifixion. James also warns about ones tongue being energized by hell itself aka demons if someone isn’t careful. So it’s not about possession or ownership it’s about being submitted to an evil spirit.
Unfortunately what you thought isn't what they meant. They do believe demons take control over Christians.
@@NigelUI’m wondering when you heard them say a demon can take over person???
They didn’t say a Christian could be taken over by a demon but they did say a Christian can be set free from demonisation - or “oppression” - because it’s a common occurrence that Christian’s do get set free from demons we see in church history and today and we see the scriptural basis for it :) blessings
I so wish I could come to the conference. Unfortunately that’s about a 24+ flight for me over here in New Zealand haha.
From what you are saying, is there any person, Christian or otherwise, that doesn't have a demon? If the world is infested with unclean spirits who can exploit every misstep of hand, foot, or mouth to demonize even those indwelt by the Holy Spirit, then no one is safe. I, and probably everyone I know, likely has a demon. That's kind of the disturbing vibe of this video.
Walk in the Spirit and most of the time these critters won't even come near you. Sometimes you can know they are there or that you are under attack, but it doesn't amount to anything.
If you are doing something which would be a wide open doorway then you need to close that down ASAP.
Prayer and fasting, i.e. spiritual maturity drives out the unbelief which gives the devil quarter.
Hardly anyone seems to trust the Holy Spirit for discernment anymore but if they did they'd know demons were rampant. It doesn't have to be scary. He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
Be a blinding beacon of light in the spirit world rather than a stinking rotten carcass attracting the vermin, and the majority will just scurry before you. Learn to listen to the HS and He'll tell you how to deal with the ones that don't run. Or sometimes you don't need to do anything.
Still listening through the episode but when you state that the Bible doesn’t make a differentiation between oppressed and possessed, how do you explain that some people had demons “cast out” of them? Weren’t these cases exclusively non-believers? 15:18
Per the scripture, yes, all nonbelievers.
Satan spoke through Peter, who was a believer.
When the sons of thunder wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume the Samaritans, Jesus said to them, “You know not what spirit you are of.”
Finally, Satan entered Judas, who was at least a disciple and, up to that point, a believer by all outward appearances.
After Pentecost, Simon the sorcerer was baptized, but his heart was still in the gall of bitterness and “the bond of iniquity.”
Paul warns the believers in Corinth not to commit idolatry, or else they will “become partakers of demons.”
He tells the Ephesians believers not to stay angry and “give a place to the devil.”
Seems to me like Christians can have whatever they want. If they want a demon, they can have a demon.
@@NomosCharis Satan did not literally speak through Peter but the words Peter used were essentially speaking "for Satan". For instance, if I speak out of turn and with a spirit of rebellion that is me essentially speaking on behalf of a spirit of rebellion because what I said works in that spirit's favor...I did not get possessed, literally, by a spirit of rebellion.
@@lisachambers3683 Considering Christ was in the middle of his ministry, had not yet laid his life down...A Christian cannot have both Christ in his heart and a demon. You guys want to give Satan and demonic entities the same power of God and that's wild.
@@lisachambers3683 the “trinity gods?”
“Every church and movement on earth is being deceived?”
Except you? Are you seriously saying that everyone is deceived except you?
Great episode guys!
2 Corinthians 11:4 “For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.” paul teaches you can as a Christians receive another spirit
Thank you. That was really thought-provoking. I’m wondering if these demonized believers were new converts who came to faith having preexisting demons? Could a mature Christian, who has no hidden sin and is walking with the Lord be demonized? I think it’s probably a matter of degree. Wouldn’t you say?
I used to have night terrors - my room would get errie and freezing cold - I would freeze in terror - I had to have a heart monitor put on cause I felt my heart stopping
PEACE IN CHRIST! 🕎✝️🕊🔥
14:04 @josh Aren't they though? I mean not material, cause a legion of demons can be in one man's body, but they went from his body to the pigs, but it seems they do take up a "house" or some type of space, at least they reside in some space but not take up space. and isn't it helpful to clarify if it IS "in" someone? Cause wouldn't you say there's times of "spiritual warfare" or just like "attacks" from the enemy like depression, anxiety, temptation, etc but it's not a demon IN them that needs to be cast out? kind of like Jesus had an "attack" in the wilderness but wasn't demonized. so we have attacks but then we also have the demon residing "in" the person which then needs to be cast out. Jesus didn't need deliverance although he was attacked/tempted by the enemy. So couldn't it be the same with us? Where we should know weather its something that needs to be cast out, or something that needs to be prayed through/fought against.
God has given you a lot of discernment and wisdom, and you are asking all the right questions. Unfortunately, many believe that those who have the Holy Spirit can also have a demon indwelling them which can control their body and speak through them. That is full-blown possession. But instead of calling it possession, they will say the demon is manifesting oh, but the only time demons manifested that way in the Bible is when people are fully possessed
So in summary of my last thought, a demon you are fighting against actively would be outside of you and not controlling your body and your faculties. If someone is casting out a demon and the demon starts speaking through the person, that means that person is fully possessed. But all Deliverance ministries, and I mean all of them, teach that this is a way that demons can speak and that it's not possession. It is the boldest face lie that the devil has ever convinced us to be true. So now we have believers believing that they can be possessed by the devil but not calling it possession. The difference between this type of possession and a spiritual attack would be in a spiritual attack you might beThe difference between this type of possession and a spiritual attack would be in a spiritual attack you might be thinking some thoughts that the devil wants you to think, but you can compare those to the word of God and get rid of them. In this possession, the demon is able to directly speak those words through your mouth. There is no filter
@@somethinggood9267 I do believe a Christian can have the Holy Spirit and a demon.... if a demon has momentary "control" during a manifestation, I wouldn't call that possession. The guy with the legion of demons was possessed. but when we are in Christ, He posses us but that doesn't mean we are perfect, because are souls and body's still need renewed. If my soul was renewed then I would never sin again, so it doesn't bother me to think a demon could reside in my body, because my body and soul still sin. My spirit is made perfect through Christ, and that's why a demon cant possess me, but he could "inhabit" me or have a place in my life where he can more easily afflict me, and to dislodge him from that place would require him being cast out.
@@Villager_of_eth you do know that people who are possessed aren't constantly controlled by demons right? They can have normal moments to and then moments where the demons completely take over. If the demon is speaking through you during a Deliverance service, that means it's possessing you, and that means it's had the power to possess you all along. Why then, in the power of all of those men of God, would it have the ability to temporarily possess you? That makes no sense. It would have had to been possessing you all along
@@DavidWilkinss they acknowledge this. But they still believe that a demon can speak through someone who is inhabited by the holy Spirit.
I just have a common-sense question, why would a demon suddenly be possessing someone and speaking through them when they are getting delivered of demons that are simply oppressing them? If a demon hasn't been possessing you and controlling your body, (which includes your mouth)before Deliverance, why all of a sudden at Deliverance does it have full rein to throw you around and speak through your mouth? This does not line up with the God of the Bible I know, and the information about people who are fully possessed matches up with these descriptions of people who are getting thrown around and having demons speaking through them. But people are saying that these are born-again Christians! I know everyone is persuaded by experience, me most of all, I can be extremely emotional and empathetic and I want to hear everyone's experiences and validate them. But God has really been showing me that our experiences need to bow to him and to the word of God. We are so easily deceived by false spirits and false teachers. We really need to discern what is going on in these delivering services. I think the people that are getting thrown around and having demons speaking through them are unsaved. I'm basing this off of the Bible and off of so much prayer I've had with God. I also believe that if someone is being oppressed by demons, that is undergoing intense spiritual warfare, having people lay hands and pray on them is a wonderful thing to do! This can definitely drive demons away! I've experienced this. There is a time that I fell into a besetting sin and was overcome with shame, panic, and condemnation. I became afraid to go to church and full of anxiety that people at church would see me. I kept telling my friends how afraid I was to go to church, this is not like me. So she had some people at church pray over me. Instantly that feeling left and I was overcome with joy and restored to my normal peaceful State of mind. I could feel that demon leave as I was restored to peace. But guess what I did not experience? I did not experience being thrown around, I did not experience the demon taking control, nor did the demon have authority to speak through me. My experience is biblical, the deliverances were born again Christians are acting possessed is not biblical.
The Remnant Guys, going at it again! lezgoooooooooooooooooooo!
I post these to suggest that you can't use Origen, because at the very least he contradicts himself. The others provide evidence contrary to your position. Also, most of your sources are very late (after Nicea, and some centuries after). Can't really use them as orthodox.
Perhaps the early church quotes used here actually refer to entrenched sin and illness when talking about 'demons' at baptism. They were exhorting the person being baptised to live a holy life. The early church, while having great teaching, also invented all the heresy that plagues the modern church. That was why they needed church councils and creeds, to refute the false teaching. What did the reformation theologians teach on this subject? I do not see that the New Testament after pentecost, gives any emphasis on this subject at all. The gospel is central and sufficient. As Paul said, "his grace is sufficient for me".
The Bible does make a distinction between oppressed and possessed. Oppression is the spiritual warfare we contend with on a daily basis. Sometimes this Warfare is so intense that we need help from other people to fight it! But that is not to be confused with having a demon internally.
Well said brother.
@@gabrielt721 God bless you:) I'm a sister btw
@@somethinggood9267 sorry sis! :)
Proof? Where do you see this distinction in the Scriptures?
@@IndianaJoe0321 well if you read the entire New Testament, it clearly talks about spiritual warfare, not demons possessing Believers and controlling their bodies. An example of a verse regarding spiritual warfare is, submit yourself to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you. This teaches us how to treat the devil. Another Bible verse is, greater is the one who is in you than he who is in the world. Teaching us that the Holy Spirit within us is greater than the devil. If it was possible for Christians who are born again to have Demons Inside of them, the Bible would have told us that we have the Holy Spirit and also Demons Inside of us. The Bible contains everything we need for life and godliness. Please look into all the verses about spiritual warfare
Hahahaha Basement boy in the very beginning. That made me laugh right out loud.
Can y'all do a show on what roundtree said at min 27, justified, sanctified, glorified? I would like a deep conversation on that from y'all!
Blessings on the next conf! I was at the last one and got a word that is propelling my life towards living for God
The wicked Spirits... are trodden underfoot By Us, by the power given us by the Lord. They cannot remain any longer in the body of a man who is baptized and Sanctified, in whom the
Holy Spirit is beginning to dwell." Cyprian 5.402
I like how John Wimber said it.
When asked if a Christian could have a demon, he reportedly answered:
“Sure, a Christian can have whatever he wants. But why would you want a demon?”
Lol. Great summation.
I’m a believer and I want to fly.
@@mikem3789you will 😂
@@walterus91at the rapture😅😅
A little bit of pushback on the examples from Luke: all of those accounts were pre-Pentecost. Do we have any reason to believe that they were indwelt by the Spirit in the same manner Christians are historically-post-Pentecost? Or is it possible that's comparing apples and oranges?
They accused Jesus of casting out Demons with the power of demons. What are the details? And what was Jesus doing?
Jesus would cast out demons with His own authority.
Here's the verses in the gospels about Jesus casting out demons: Mt 4:24, 8:16, 8:32, 9:33, 12:22, 15:28, 17:18; Mk 1:26,34, 3:11,22, 5:13, 7:29, 9:25,38; Lk 4:35,41, 6:18, 7:21,22, 8:33, 9:42, 11:14,13:32.
Well.... For SOME reason, the Pharisees thought it was demonic.
@@ClunyRedwall-xo9yk Exorcists in that day would preform rituals and spells to rid people of demons. All Jesus had to do was command them out. The Pharisees did not like Jesus and were looking for something to charge him with. They probably noticed the authority Jesus had, and they tried to accuse Him of casting out demons by the power of demons.
Thank you guys for broaching this widespread problem in the Christian religion.. People who argue against this dont realize that every recipient of deliverance in the NT scriptures were of the faith.. and most display their faith as a prerequisite before receiving deliverance!
Wait a minute...where does it says that the two demoniacs in the region of the gadarenes where of the faith?
Or the slave fortuneteller that confronts Paul in Acts?
Or any of the other occurrences of people having a demon that throws the afflicted around?
@@JonathanEngblom even only one having faith disproves the idea that deliverance is not for believers (Mark 5:6-8 demoniac runs to Jesus and falls at his feet worshiping, then Jesus delivers him)
The Divination slave girl in acts 16:16 followed Paul for many days exclaiming that Paul and Silas were "the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation."
And after many days Paul grew tired of her, and confronted and commanded a divination spirit, Python, to come out of her.
@JonathanEngblom The man who came on behalf of his son who was a lunatic and sore-vexed (and often thrown into the fire by the demon) approached to receive from the power of Jesus twice, the second time being even after his disciples failed to drive the demon out... if that's not a prior display of faith I don't know what is.
@@Joseph-Mullins the question is not whether the father believed, was the son a believer?
And this was before the death and ressurection of Christ, befpre the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon all believers, they where not yet sealed by the Holy Spirit
Good video and interesting topic. Good points and bad points made. I agree with both Josh and Michael on Sola Scriptura but that ECH should not be ignored. However, it doesn't take long for one to see that the ECFs were all over the place on their theology. It must be remembered that, like any institution or organization that has been birthed, there are going to be growing pains and the early years are formative that involve falling down, skinning your knees, and picking yourself back up to move forward.
The one point that I absolutely disagree with is the claim that a Believer can be "possessed" by a demon. That is logically false. A vessel can NOT be "possessed" simultaneously by opposing forces. The Believer/Christian is "possessed" by God. Indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The Unbeliever is "possessed" by Satan. Indwelt with a dead spirit that has not been quickened and therefore compelled by the Flesh, the World, and the Enemy. (Eph. 2:1-3) Thus the Believer can NOT be "possessed" by a demon or Satan himself but they can be "influenced" by such.
I would have to go actually read the references Michael gave to know for sure but I suspect his "so they were literally casting spirits out" claim is false. Just based on what he said it seems that this was some form of recitation of a standard Baptismal ceremony/event. Not unlike that which is done in several more liturgical denominations. Words don't do anything. It's the belief/faith behind them that matters. One could simply regurgitate the words "I renounce Satan" and if there is no intent to do so the claim is worthless. In some ways it's synonymous with Baptismal Regeneration. The Holy Spirit is NEVER under any compulsion to act on the whims/words of ANY man.
Josh is really confusing. First he says there is "fruit of Salvation" being seen and then talks about Baptismal Regeneration? What does he think Regeneration is?
Anyways, overall a good, thought-provoking video that moves one to get "outside the box" for awhile. Thanks for the effort you put into this with the quotes, references, etc.
I am a member of a deliverence ministry in okc how can i get ahold of you
Would it be helpful to say that an exegetical argument is more of a "direct" argument, while a theological one is "Indirect" or a degree removed from the text?
Just a few references off the top of my head from Scripture that imply demons can be “inside Christians” in one way or another:
Satan spoke through Peter, who was a believer.
When the sons of thunder wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume the Samaritans, Jesus said to them, “You know not what spirit you are of.”
Finally, Satan entered Judas, who was at least a disciple and, up to that point, a believer by all outward appearances.
After Pentecost, Simon the sorcerer was baptized, but his heart was still in the gall of bitterness and “the bond of iniquity.”
Paul warns the believers in Corinth not to commit idolatry, or else they will “become partakers of demons.”
He tells the Ephesians believers not to stay angry and “give a place to the devil.”
Finally, Paul was given a messenger of Satan “in [his] flesh,” though he was obviously a faithful believer.
none of those examples show that believers, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, can be 'inside Christians'.
@@PC-vg8vn that believers can be inside Christians? You mean demons?
0:19 Miller blink twice if you’re being held against your will❕
I'm interested in how Roundtree determined that the "temple of God often had idols?" Deut 32 doesn't get you there. At least not to the court in which sacrifices were made. We know in Jesus's time that there was wickedness in the court where the animals were purchased. But we don't see idols in the inner courts where the sacrifices take place.Where else do we see support for that assertion?
If we read anything about what is allowed in the temple, we see that God decrees death to those who would come in unclean, let alone bringing idols with them. God is the one who guards His house from evil. This should be the lesson we get from the temple. God guards His sanctuary. Jesus purges His temple from evil. Cleansing us from unrighteousness is Jesus's work. Sometimes it feels like the power of demons is elevated over the power of Christ, His gospel and our salvation.
I wouldn't call his argument exegetical since he speculated frequently as to what those passages mean. Theological inferences... isn't that what he called the argument against demonic possession?
And after baptism they recieved the Holy Ghost at the hands of the clergy/Chrismation.....acts 2
Gary Demar uses the saying "Church fathers are informative, not authoritative" as you guys say.
44:50 Michael Miller, you are right on!
Great episode
Make an exegetical argument? Ok let me try… this word that you all keep mentioning and emphasizing for demonization (daimonizomai). Yeah, It doesn’t appear again after the gospels. Not once. Not a single time. Not in Acts, not in any of the epistles. Nowhere. I wonder why that is.. perhaps it’s because of what happens in the book of Acts? What happens? Pentecost. The coming of the Holy Spirit. The inhabitation of the Holy Spirit. The filling of the Holy Spirit. We become citizens of the kingdom. New creation and citizens of the kingdom of God. Two kingdoms cannot reside in the believer. The strongman has been purged out by one that is stronger. That is Yahweh.
It doesn’t mean that we do not wrestle, it doesn’t mean that we do not war, it doesn’t mean that we cannot be tempted, harassed, deceived, or accused. Which we would call oppressed. Of course not. This absolutely can and does happen to believers. (Peter tempted, Apostles martyred, etc..) BUT… it does mean a loyal follower of Jesus cannot be inhabited by demons. I don’t care with a Church Father said, their context is not the context of scripture. Nor are their writings and literature Inspired by the Spirit. It’s not scripture. Helpful, sure, maybe.. but not God breathed.
If church history weighs in heavily on Believers and our relation to Demons. How about a show on early church teachings prior to Augustine's teachings on election,predestination and free will???
That is a good idea.
It’s not hard. Salvation isn’t completed until the resurrection. Demons can have influence over believers
@16:00, Rountree, you do know that Origen also believed and taught that that the devil himself will end up being restored to communion with God. With all due respect, who gives a rip what Origen thought about the devil and demons. And you’re making neither exegetical or theological arguments. You’re reading YOUR opinion into the text which is eisegesis and using your own experience and references like Origen for heaven sakes to make your point.. Good Lord..
Origin also taught the "premortality/pre-existence of the soul" view, as Kat Kerr teaches!!.. that we were once long ago little spirit beings inside the Father until we were sent down (like hindu demigods) to be incarnated with a fleshly body. Mormons embrace that idea as well. And ..oh.. how the New Age movement loves these mystical sounding doctrines floating around lately among many of the hypercharisma sensationlism /personal experience driven crowds!
Why is there no examples or instruction of exorcisms at baptism in the New Testament? At what point is this adding to the scriptures in early church history? Lots of quotes fromearly church fathers that had no references from Scripture why they believed this.
The major PUSHBACK argument that;'s being given especially nowadays is that ...."THERE is NO example in the bible from the book of ACTS forward of "BORN AGAIN SPIRIT FILLED CHRISTIANS" having indwelling demons cast out of them............WHAT SAY YOU to that. because that's the point that needs to be addressed........I would say that a whole SHOW needs to be done addressing that argument alone.
Is there anyone who could answer questions about demons? Why do they come & scare you? Talk & stuff. I pray daily! I'm a Christian so I don't understand. I'm trying to grow but these things cause doubt. I have no one to ask & I'm told not to bc I'll sound crazy and embarrass people...or I'm told it's bc I'm crazy even though others have witnessed it..
Are there different kinds? Do some only respond to men? So many questions..
" in fact, (the demons) do injure some, but only those by whom they are feared. For the powerful and lofty hand of God does not protect such ones, for they have not been initiated in the sacrament of Truth. However, the demons fear the righteous, the worshippers of God. When adjured by the name of God, they depart from the bodies... They cannot speak falsely either to God, (by whom they are adjured) , or to the righteous, by whose voice they are tormented. Therefore, often times they have uttered the greatest howls. They cry out that they are beaten and are on fire... So whom can they injure, other than those whom they have in their own power?" Lactantius 7.65
“Son of Abraham means a saved person” absolutely not lol it says “do not say we have Abraham as our father because God is able from these stones to bring up children from Abraham” Mathew 3:9. So salvation is something to brag about God tells us in Jeremiah “let not the strong boast in his strength… but let him who boast boast in this that he knows me and understands me” Jeremiah 9 I believe. So if the Jews were told not to brag about being sons of Abraham then obviously it doesn’t mean salvation. Remnant radio is so wrong sometimes it’s shocking, but I still love them.
I agree about the meaning of "Abraham as our father" in Matthew, as quoted by John the Baptist was referring to Jewish ethnicity. The Baptist warned them not to use their ethnicity as a reason for not needing to repent. But it is clear that the Gospel writers did assign specific meanings to phrases within their Gospels.
The point Mike was making was that Luke used certain phrases to refer to covenant believers. Mike mentioned at 7:20 when Luke used "being a daughter of Abraham" (Lk 13:16), he was referring to her as a covenant believer, not to her ethnicity. The woman was not antagonistic towards Jesus, she was a victim of Satan’s physical binding (infirmity). Jesus didn't tell her to repent after he healed her. Luke later announced that Zacchaeus the tax collector (a Jew who extorted Jews) became a child of Abraham after he believed. “And Jesus said to him, Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham” (Lk 19:9). John the Baptist, Luke, and Jesus never conflated being an ethnic child of Abraham with being a covenant child of Abraham, as you noted.
The Apostle John used the term "Jews" in a similar manner. Often John used it to refer to the religious leaders (scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians) in Israel who were opposed to Jesus, not to the audience's ethnicity. Leon Morris wrote in his commentary, The Gospel According to John, the following:
“But much more often he uses it to denote the Jewish nation as hostile to Jesus.” (p. 130,131)
“It is the aspect of hostility to Jesus that ‘the Jews’ primarily signifies.” (p. 131)
@@bealivingmiracle lol very good. There is something to the fact that gentiles enter into the Abraham covenant after conversion, I enjoyed your reply thank you for writing it. Sadly I do not know what my point was originally since it’s been so long since I posted it lol but I enjoyed your reply thanks
All arguments are theological arguments, even the exegetical ones. Look at any time the apostles quote the scriptures. The text in context usually has nothing to do with what they're talking about. "Out of Egypt I had called my son", Jesus' high priestgood being higher than that of Levi because Abraham gave tithe to Melchizedek, and many many more. Even Michael's counter arguments, with the indwelling sin and the idols in the temple, are purely logical arguments.
Nonetheless when the jews accuse Jesus of casting out demons with the power of Beelzebub, He tells them no one can enter the house of a strong man if he doesnt tie him up first. The context is actually about demon posession, unlike the other arguments. If Jesus can tie up indwelling demons with the power of the holy spirit, the demons cannot tie up the indwelling holy spirit because of the strength discrepancy.
In saying all this, I'm not arguing for the other extreme view that a believer can not be oppressed, influenced or tempted by the devil. Only that a believer can not be completely overtaken by demonic powers, as we often see described in the gospels. Which sounds like you guys hold the same opinion, so I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to prove. Pretty much everyone agrees with that.
Exactly brother...It seems the good ol boys of RR (and yes, I do Iike them and respect them highly) are stepping into a theologically confusing mess that's sadly unnecessary; they've stated clearly that they don't believe a true believer can be demon possessed... but then, they speak of casting literal demons hiding inside of believers. It just seems to me that by that,they're unintentionally giving a platform of credibility to the wildest stories told by the "demons-inside-Christians" movement! And oh , yes, there's some really bizarre tales being told here and there that truly can leave young ungrounded lambs in a tailspin of confusion wondering "how saved are they?
Why would they say there's no difference between oppression and possession?.. between being harrassed/oppresses, etc OUTWARDLY by demons ,oppression ( where we are told to resist the devil who oppresses from the outside).. and instead insisting on the idea that these sinister writhing demonic creatures, though non-corporal are physically within us and must be named and expelled...It seems so dishonoring to the power of the Holy Spirit who abides within His children.. ("Greater is HE who is within you than he that is in the world") Now IF we sin so continually that we deliberately reject the Spirit and choose to not serve Him any longer, sure we can have a demon return and reside within...but that's another issue
Michael R seems rather irrittated at the start, trying to defend his views. But I found most of his examples irrelevant to a believer having a demon 'inside' their being. He was confusing, for example, sin and demons as if they are the same thing. Theyre not.
Yeah we can’t just forget the OG’s(original gangsters)of the Church! 😅
20:04 - 21:05 This sounds an awful lot like what happens at a modern day Catholic baptism 🤔
What do you guys do with the fact that the church fathers believe in baptism regeneration? They dont believe people where part of the church before baptism! And why you choose what to believe as when you use Aquinas to show what you believe about demons and christias but not the remedies he uses? I am protestant too but have been reading church fathers and discovering how far from the early church most protestant are!
😂 Wow Josh…what thou sayest, say quickly!
Guys, so let’s follow your logic to its natural conclusion, based on this discussion. The Apostle Paul had a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan. That would indicate he was ‘demonized’, a physical ‘place’ (as you say) or a foothold. Yet, God’s grace was sufficient for him. So, one would have to conclude that sometimes God’s will would be that some believers remain ‘demonized’. In fact, Paul would glory in his demonization. I just can’t go down that road with you. 🙏
Very good logic. As God allowed Satan to afflict Job but Job wasn't demonized and have it cast out! Unbelievers can be demo ized, not true believers. We resist the devil and remain faithful to God.
First disciples would have understood the legions and the 153 great ones. Check it out yourself. Temple of Dagon the word there for "-full" has a second meaning which is 144. And "there" were women "there." That redundant second "there" has another translation, too, which is 8. (I'm thinking these fallen angels were members of the elohim before they fell. 8 possibly refers to those who had previously taken 8 steps as compared to Uzza's 6) These were the giants. And there would be one priest. A total of 153 "great ones." Now, how is it that this floor was full and there were legions on the other floor. Jesus makes a point of letting us know this one net was full with 153 fish called great ones and had previously tore with a slew of fish. It is also known that Octavian had commissioned an altar built to Dagon in Lyon, Gaul. Dag is Hebrew for "wag back and forth." For this reason Adam gave fish the name "Dag." Octavians other altar was at the east and is to Apollyon (i think.) This idol included the horse whose head bobs up and down. Satan comes from that word because of heads of wheat that also bob up and down. I think Pergamum was the head of a beast empire and Lyon the tail. Satan and Diablos may be two different entities. They both lie, but in different ways. Jesus cleaned up Israel. The demons of Asia were left to others. I suppose you guys are dealing with demons unique to America.
BUT IF THERE IS A GHOST, EVEN THE GHOST OF A KID, IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS SATAN TOO, , "THIS PROGRAM IS STILL UNDER THE CLASS OF SHAMAN AND MAGICIAN. ??
Some excellent conversations here, as usual, everything from practical holiness to the Church fathers, to ecumenical issues, how to weigh all the available evidence and arrive at something like an orthodox answer.
Many times I've seen our more Reformed brothers appeal to a sin "nature." This is not our human nature to be utterly and totally sin. Jesus became sin. That is scripture. Nowhere is Adam called sin. He is sinFUL. We are fallen, yes, but not utterly and totally abject, without any glimmer of our former estate. We were and are created in the image of God. That is our nature.
As such, we have freewill. It is not total free agency. No one can do whatever they please. It is sufficient freewill.
We have a knowledge of right and wrong. This is a consequence of fallenness. Adam and Eve existed in innocence. The knowledge of good and evil was the forbidden fruit.
Some Baptist documents I have read appeal to a fully intimated law given to Adam. This is not scriptural.
The Westminster Confession speaks of a covenant of works. This is not scriptural. Rather the law is the covenant that was given. The one which Christ fulfills. He also fulfils the PROMISE (also a covenant but different wording is used) given to Abraham.
All this is off topic. But if we don't understand the basics how will we understand spiritual things like demons?
The law is entirely fulfilled in Christ. There is no division between 'Moral" and "Ceremonial." All points to Christ, "our passover" who "has been slain."
Pentecost too is fulfilled, 50 days after the resurrection, when the Holy Spirit is given to the Church. To stay. "He will be with you forever."
Good job to our brothers in Christ who are leading the way into a new Reformation. Repent, and believe the Gospel, the full gospel, all of it, all of us!
Thank you, Gentlemen 🌹⭐🌹⭐🌹
Completely disagree.
Gabrielt made a very solid case that contradicts the "Demon Slayers" doctrine.Of course, Christians can become oppressed and outwardly vexed or harrassed, or buffeted by demonic influences etc but that is a far cry from having a demonic creature writhing inside our body parts ...as " Linda Blair in "The Exorcist growling in a man's voice "I will not come out!" ..And I might add, the idea of Christians having indwelling demons was NOT at all taught by very godly ministers of the Gospel during those wonderous moves of God of revival in the 1800a when thousands would come Christ under the Gospel proclamation of those like Wesley, Whitfield ,Finny, Johnathan Edwards, Dwight Moody etc etc...(And no they didn't have to have attendants helping the demon slayer minister put out "vomit cans " in preparation for the circus events and casting out demons from these radiantly born again believers! )Something is wrong in this teaching. "The teaching/preaching of the Cross is the power of God unto salvation!"
This video seriously disappointed me.
1 Corinthians 10:21 literally says you can’t partake of both. That’s what it says. So it’s not a good exegesis of that passage at all.
Using the daughter of Abraham and comparing her to zaccheus doesn’t work either. It’s a simple statement that she was a Religious Jew. Not a new covenant born again believer. Terrible exegetical argument.
Also, there are many things we believe today that the church fathers didn’t. We don’t get to pick and choose what we like and what we don’t and then tell everyone they’re wrong if they don’t agree with
Calvinism wasn’t super popular until it’s spreading the 16th century, yet Sam storms is a Calvinist, even though several church fathers would disagree. I don’t think these are great arguments.
hoooo, a lot of people squirming in the comment section. Guess they need deliverance. Lezgooooooooo!
Do you regularly think that people that disagree with you or demon-possessed? If so, that is the highest level of Pride sir
@somethinggood9267 That is EXACTLY how the demon slayers think. I think he was being sarcastic 🤷♀️
That face tho 😃
REPENT!!
I don't think they know that they are being deceived by a doctrine of demons
You guys must have the demon of mispronouncing Greek and Latin names lol.