If you haven't already done so, you should consider testing the dual port concept with smaller diameter holes with an equivalent combined diameter of the original single port hole. From there you can work your way up in the diameter of the dual port holes to see what, if any, gains or losses you get. I've retro-fitted one of my Daisy Red Ryders with a gas-spring and I've been fumbling my way around these air-tubes looking for the most efficient given the greater power of my gas spring.
Just found your channel after rehabbing my father's Daisy 25. I'm NO airflow expert but in dealing with automotive applications (I truck pull as a hobby), ports numbers and size is only PART of the equation. Port transition plays a much bigger role than size depending on application. Forcing air 90 degrees in a bigger port may decrease output versus forcing air 20 degrees in smaller port. Smooth transitions vs stepped transitions play a HUGE roll as well. On the airtube you built the ID is bigger and the ports you cross drilled look bigger, but the way Daisy shaped their ports (incoming air to the air tube) aren't just holes drilled, but look like "notches". Those notches would seem to allow a better transfer of air into the tube. Again, I am NO expert, but that may explain some of what you are seeing as air doesn't like turbulence, especially as it transitions from the pressure chamber into the air tube. I could be wrong but after seeing similar issues with cylinder head ports (bigger isn't always better if the turbulence is created), it stood out as I was watching/looking at your video and air tube design. I hope you figure out what works best and have success in increasing volume and airspeed as we all benefit.
Thanks for watching the channel and pitchin' in with some real world observations. The ideal port size, port location and interior diameter of the air tube is still being worked on here at Restomod but is not a front burner project at the moment. I've been using the dual port 'Blue Hare" tube built by Jonathan Bates over at Black Barrel Customs for my most recent experiments and find that it works pretty well. you can check that out at: ruclips.net/video/jW78634rocw/видео.html He sent me one of his "Conestoga" builds based on a current production Daisy 105 Buck with a ton of mods including a "Blue Hare" air tube and the gun runs a consistent 400 FPS with a standard Daisy Red Ryder mainspring. It's remarkable!
@@RestOModDaisy lol another gearhead here but I have an idea. With your dual port version you have dual streams of air coming in from both sides. Air has momentum just like everything else. Air is coming in one side and due to momentum is fighting the air coming in the other port. Now compound that with the dead air between the ports and crimp creating vacuum. It's just like the old school breathers on a carburetor. If you remember the center was like a dome with air coming in from all directions before going 90° into the carburetor. By flipping the breather lid upside down it created an inverted dome eliminating most of the dead space where vacuum was created above the carburetor. Perhaps if you could pin a wedge shaped divider inside the tube it could fix both of those issues.
@@nashvilleoutlaw Thanks for the input on airtube mods. As you can see from the comment section here, there are a lot guys with a lot knowledge on this topic! I just got a custom shot tube and piston combo from Terry Cowger (America's Top Custom Daisy Modder) that ditches the airtube completely. I'm planning to install it on each of the guns in my Range Remuda and see how it runs. Expectations are in the 500 FPS range based on tests by Terry and Mark Ritter over at Cobalt 327.
@@RestOModDaisy That's cool I can't wait to see the results. Does he have a website? I'd love to see what all is different from stock. I had something similar to a buck 30+years ago and just ordered a red ryder yesterday so it should be in this weekend. 500+fps would be really nice with a single pump lever action. That'll rival the old powerline 880's without all of the pumping, the metal ones not the new plastic junk ones of course.
@@nashvilleoutlaw Terry has a RUclips channel located here: www.youtube.com/@BB-BLASTERS-BY-TC but if you want the skinny on the latest and greatest on these super high speed muzzle loading shot tubes head over the The High Road forum and check out the "$15 Dollar Daisy" thread. Pages 72 to 77 provide a whole lot of detail. I consider that thread to be the Modern Daisy Modders Bible www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/putting-a-little-more-power-in-a-15-00-daisy.807316/
off set the 2 ports as the sir is flowing in they are fighting each other cut one air port and cut next 1/16 inch above bore of the lower air flow will be better
I'll explore that on the next prototype but only after I build a single port version first. The interior diameter of the stainless tube is huge compared to the 7/64" overbore and should transport quite a bit more air. We'll see what happens!
was thinking very similar, a little offset and oval them a little. don't want the holes so large diameter it makes it weak, but surface area of the two holes should be slightly larger than surface area of exit hole. making the ovals (diamond burr in a dremel?) kinda leaning the holes in direction of air flow. offset may need slightly more than 1/16" (not much!), this is fun "little engine" stuff.
@@RestOModDaisy The larger ID of the SS tube is the issue. Larger dia means slower velocity for the same volume of air. that's one of the benefits of the original air tubes, they were hardier and also had a smaller ID so the exit velocity of the air is faster. As my dad was fond of saying, my dollar against your nickel.....
@@tomr9306 An interesting wager. I know for a fact that the 7/64" overbore single port airtubes provide more velocity than the stock OEM tubes. I have oodles of chrono readings to verify that. The dual port tubes in thin wall stainless did provide a very slight bump but not consistently and certainly not worth the effort involved in fabbing them up. I have yet to investigate further and have recieved lots of info on port size, port placement and possibly inducing some kind of 'swirl" into the airflow via internal flutes. I think the parameters of the bet are a bit wide, but if you want to nail down some details, single port/dual port/standard tube/overbore tube etc, I have a Nickel to risk.
Id really like to work with you on these. Our process seem to be the same style and i have a crazy passion for this. The stainless tubing has been the best to make from scratch air tubes reminder to readers you can cause a double feed if you have a just 2 short AT i have rebuild a few of my broken dual ports. Wish they still used the old plunger. More spring space and a flat surface fore the spring to meet instead of a pin that to me would to me warp spring in long run
Okay, what we need here is some engineering. The factor that controls how fast the BB is going to go is air velocity not air volume. Take the same shot tube with the same volume of air and the air velocity will be higher in a smaller diameter tube. An engineer with all the dimensions can calculate the optimum values for each. I'm surprised Daisy doesn't do this, or maybe they do. I could do this if I had all the numbers. Shane, the reason yours is lower velocity is because the air will pass slower as the tube diameter gets larger. That's physics, just saying...
Craigster, I was told there would be no math. The results of this experiment indicate you are right, the larger tube diameter did not result on more speed on this build. More experiments later!
Just a thought. I say if you just reduce the tips Inside diameter to the OEM spec via insert or rolled with a manderal . Bottlenecking it right before the BB instead of at the beginning of the tube.
@@craigster1952 There is a thing called tube restriction. You could turn little internal cone to direct a smooth flow. It gets bottlenecked in the tube entrance anyway. So how is forcing more air volume (larger ID) faster right behind the bb and max pressuer at the tip instead of 3" behind the BB at the seals, not work? Nozzles work better for pushing things along.
Weaved in a spring for a toy version of the RedRyder (model 900 something) with the spring for my Heddon 102. Gots some balls now. Its shorter so your can still set the spring with ease. Doesn't take hold till you cock it.
The low swept volume in Daisy chambers would benefit more from pressure/volume flow balance over simply exhausting the volume more readily. The small tube (95, etc) Daisy guns have about 1.15 cubic inch volume chambers, where the larger guns (Ryder) have 1.25 cubic inch chambers. Not a lot at all. Factory form, they are rather efficient systems. Find the barrel to chamber volume.... On small bore guns, higher pressure with small volume will always perform better than the same volume moving at lower pressure (open port too far).
I need to make a video. This last summer when I installed one of Marks complete plunger assemblies, equipped with a 327 and big air tube, in to my very new 1938ARR, I got some astounding numbers. I went from 282 fps to 386 fps. Eventually after a couple hundred shots it settled in at around 368-370. I notice the seal on Marks assembly fits my tube much more snug than the factory assembly. Its fun to shoot but I do notice it is quite jarring if it fails to pick up a BB and dry fires. I worry about the hit the abutment takes on a dry fire.
I agree! I'd love to see a video about your modding experience. The current production abutment seal is pretty stout and I don't think you'll suffer any long term damage as a result of the occasional failure to fire. Gravity feed systems do require elevation of the muzzle for consistent operations. Your speed increase is on par with what I've seen in converted current production guns with the same set up. What made Johnathan's build so interesting was he got that same bump without a high power spring, one of the foundations of the power triad as I've come to understand it. Of the two variables, a dual port air tube and an an incredibly long shot tube I could only replicate the air tube. It was enough was not enough to replicate the result so it's time to redo the airtube and start looing into extending the shot tubes. Shoot the video! It's fun!
@@RestOModDaisy I live up here in WA state so as soon as we get a break in our winter rain, I will set up the chrony and make some video. One thing I think we need to take into account is the mass of the power assembly. The spring isn't just compressing air, it is having to move the weight of the spring, air tube, washer, seal, cross pin, assembly struts and stirup forward. I believe the weight reduction in Johnathans brass air tube setup also contributes to the velocity increase. I think your thin wall tube weighs less than factory Daisy and should result in an increase, just in weight reduction. I also believe if someone were to "swiss cheese" the power assembly struts to reduce weight but not strength that there should be a velocity increase. I think the Daisy single port design and air gathering channels of the compression seal and abutment washer, are a manufacturing simplification. Allowing the port to always align with an air channel, during rapid manufacturing. Also it takes less time and cost to make one functional hole in the air tube. The old dual port design did not need air channelization. I think the dual port design would work better without the air channels. I believe if a custom smooth faced compression seal were used this would reduce weight, increase air chamber volume and flow better into the dual ports. It might even work better if smaller ports were used in a quad port configuration. If a custom smooth faced compression seal were made, a smooth faced abutment would need to be configured as well. I believe an effort of maximizing air chamber volume for the given space and reducing the weight of the power assembly will allow a weaker spring to perform more efficiently. Another untested theory is that of flat wound springs. A flat wound power spring can give you more available energy for less weight in the same space as a round wound coil spring. I have been using a flat wound hammer spring in one of my PCP's with great success.
@@Backin_Theday Man that's a lot! Head over to this page before the snow leaves and take a gander www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/putting-a-little-more-power-in-a-15-00-daisy.807316/ It's the Daisy Modder Bible and it's 59 pages of ad hoc engineering. More food for thought!
Home making your ATs is easy and great inner diameter I get about 10k shots from a homemade. Shape of the port I find changes flow. The leather seal plungers give you more room for those tight coil springs. Leather needs more shot tube cleaning but it is tight and flexible seal worth trying. I have a broken 2 port old style with my own tubing. FYI the abutment with throw into chamber using the seal that go with the plunger. I did it to my 111b to make a 457 sharps look alike I miss the 2 magnet abutments. I'm guessing your tubing is from a telescopic magnet or mirror right?
Just found and like your channel. I have been rebuilding, designing, and building airguns for about 20 years now. I prefer pneumatic designs. One modification I have done to these Daisy's is line the compression tube with seamless thin walled brass tube. This also required a redesign in the abutment seal and piston seal, mainly for diameter reduction caused by the brass tube. I got a modern Ryder shooting 415 with a standard spring. For the piston and abutment seal, I used polyurethane stock and machined an o-ring gland on them. Seeing your videos is prompting me to get a 499 and modify it the same way. Though, not certain it the 499 will accept a model 25 shot tube.
Willace, thanks for jumping in and welcome aboard! I'd love to hear more about your work. Other than really clean the compression chamber I've never thought about relining it. Is this a mod you do on the pre-1978 Daisy's with the metal abutment washer or is it doable on the shot tube/abutment assembly guns? 415 FPS has my attention, especially with the standard spring. There are some folks working on a 499 repeater, head over to the High Road Forum and check the last 6-7 pages of this thread www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/putting-a-little-more-power-in-a-15-00-daisy.807316/page-56 They're working on getting a highly modified Model 25 shot tube married up with a 499b abutment for use in a 400+ FPS Daisy repeater. Quite interesting.
@@RestOModDaisy I'd say it is possible with all years. The modern guns use a shelf to retain the abutment, which does make things easier. I have a machine shop setup in the garage. Two mills, a lathe, etc. Certainly comes in handy for making those one-off parts to make things work. Lining the tube was the first thought since it is seamed and promotes pressure loss. I've not seen one that wasn't. Once I found the actual bore size of the compression chamber and machined up the appropriate brass tube, it was retained in place using the spring anchor retainer point so it didn't slide during operation. Looking at the diagrams for the 499, seems pretty straightforward. A new abutment will need machined to accommodate the model 25 shot tube along with the addition of an actual plunger assembly. The approach will be to go with a one piece abutment which incorporates an o-ring seal that rests inside the brass seamless compression tube, yet rests on the shelf if the faux barrel. Found an old 499 on ebay I may just grab up and try.
@@willacewallace5905 Please keep us in the loop on your project. IRRC the 499 plunger assembly does not utilize an airtube like other Daisy's but is muzzle loading single shot rifle, so you'll need to mod the factory plunger head to account for that. Any possibilities of making some videos of the process?
@@RestOModDaisy Sure thing. I'll do up some videos. Though, just picked up a Daisy 1000 at a good price. So, the 1000 will be the test mule for mods. The first gun that was modified I gave away on an airgun forum (Yellow) a few years back in a raffle. I sent you PM on eBay asking about wide body stocks. Looking to see where they are sold or it if you have them for sale.
@@willacewallace5905 Willace, I've been off the ebay platform for about a year as their draconian communications policies were just too much to bear. I still do stock work but haven't done a Fat Bob glue up since about March. Seems everybody wants a Slim Jim. Send me an email and we can what we can do.
You increased the flow and decreased the pressure. Keep the larger ID tube with two inlets and try soldering or rolling in a small reducer in the tip. And will also reinforce the tip as well.
The air tube transfers the compressed air charge from the compression chamber to the rear of the shot tube when the trigger is pulled and the plunger is released. The tip of the airtube makes contact with the BB in and kick starts the the BB on it's way as the compressed air accelerates it down the barrel to the intended target so it's a combination of the two forces.
It looks to me that the air inlet holes you made are a little bigger than the others. Maybe try making one with a little smaller holes would increase the pressure just a thought. Great video love learning about this stuff.
True. I used a 1/8" drill bit for both ports. The good news is that the airtube ran 450+ BB's through he gun flawlessly and there is no indication of shot peening on the tip. There are some suspicious marks on the shaft about .80" above the inlet ports as well as some straight line wear near the tip of the air tube. This was used with a current production Model 25 shot tube and was powered by a Cobalt 237 Super Spring in a Daisy Model 1838 Red Ryder receiver with a metal stamped trigger and a synthetic seal set. We'll see how the next couple of prototype fare with some tweaks.
@@RestOModDaisy See if you can maybe offset the holes for a vortex type of action. Instead of drilling them at right angles... try canting them in an upward fashion and off slightly to one side. Obviously I tend to agree with Blackie about offsetting them.
I think we all know air takes the least path of resistance.any chance the air partially escapes at the crimped end of your air tube? Is there something to the shape of the intake ports? Keep doing what you’re doing! We love your content!
Thanks drtstar1! I'm pretty sure the crimp is ok but there might be some blow back along the out side of the airtube wall. I'll know more after I get the next air tube built with a single port for comparison. I'm also gonna have to try adding shot tube length to see if that gets me closer to Nathans numbers.
@@RestOModDaisy I’d also be curious to see the dimensions of the stainless tubing vs Nathan’s brass tubing. If precision ground bb’s make that much difference, I’m sure nominal wall thickness of a few thousandths could contribute to your air loss.
@@drtstar1 Good point. I know there a difference between the OD of the Stainless tube and the OD of a stock Daisy air tube, and the stock Daisy tube will allow you to see some daylight if inserted into the base of the Model 25 shot tube. I'm hopeful that the .135" ID of the stainless tube with provide more air once I can get the port size/location/number sussed out.
Morning Shane I have another question. I have a model 98. How can I tell if its a 50’s version or 70’s version? I don’t see a serial number or lot number on it anywhere. Does that indicate 50’s?
@@WalnutandSteel The registration number system was started by Daisy in 1952 and evolved for a few decades until the lot number system replaced. Here's link to article about that over at J&G airguns that was extracted from David Albert and Gary Garber, major Daisy Guru's www.jgairguns.biz/daisy-register-lot-and-serial-numbers-explained-ezp-55.html Best I can figure based on the Lot number is November 1981 since the lot number switch happened in 1972. Yours does have a bottle cap right?
@@WalnutandSteel That makes it pre 1978-79 as that's when they switched to the fixed shot tube/abutment assembly. Could be 1981 or 1971 on the manufacturing date.
Thanks for the help! I had read an article online that said the 98 was only made from 55-60 and then again in the mid to late 70’s. Do you know if that is the case?
I could not find a video about it but I've had issues with my buttons coming out of some of my older guns IE my 111 and my 11140. Is there a method to putting them back in and just wing it cuz they have ears on them requiring them to be installed with the sleeves on the so I don't know how popped out the sleeve. Identic Cecily Bang from the Muslim anything like that the one came out when I was pushing the seal out. If you could have a video or any remedy on three installations is cuz I have found you can put them in b-series guns successfully utilizing copper piping to fill that space and then tamping on in by Hammer that was a punch Mark together but those are already smoothbore inside I need a remedy for the sleeves smaller Chambers. I do Oddball things Shane is something I'd like to show you eventually but it's over go up that way and see you or Mark but as always remember where it all starts starts with a Daisy
Why would we modify the air tube and spring assembly to achieve 400 fps on a Daisy Red Ryder with poor accuracy at best, cause they're fun, nostalgic and a marvel of design. Just wish parents would teach their kids not to shoot animals, they've got a hard enough as it is.
If you haven't already done so, you should consider testing the dual port concept with smaller diameter holes with an equivalent combined diameter of the original single port hole. From there you can work your way up in the diameter of the dual port holes to see what, if any, gains or losses you get.
I've retro-fitted one of my Daisy Red Ryders with a gas-spring and I've been fumbling my way around these air-tubes looking for the most efficient given the greater power of my gas spring.
Getting so many ideas from your videos keep them coming!
Yes sir. Love those 22 rifle vids of yours.
Just found your channel after rehabbing my father's Daisy 25. I'm NO airflow expert but in dealing with automotive applications (I truck pull as a hobby), ports numbers and size is only PART of the equation. Port transition plays a much bigger role than size depending on application. Forcing air 90 degrees in a bigger port may decrease output versus forcing air 20 degrees in smaller port. Smooth transitions vs stepped transitions play a HUGE roll as well. On the airtube you built the ID is bigger and the ports you cross drilled look bigger, but the way Daisy shaped their ports (incoming air to the air tube) aren't just holes drilled, but look like "notches". Those notches would seem to allow a better transfer of air into the tube. Again, I am NO expert, but that may explain some of what you are seeing as air doesn't like turbulence, especially as it transitions from the pressure chamber into the air tube. I could be wrong but after seeing similar issues with cylinder head ports (bigger isn't always better if the turbulence is created), it stood out as I was watching/looking at your video and air tube design. I hope you figure out what works best and have success in increasing volume and airspeed as we all benefit.
Thanks for watching the channel and pitchin' in with some real world observations. The ideal port size, port location and interior diameter of the air tube is still being worked on here at Restomod but is not a front burner project at the moment. I've been using the dual port 'Blue Hare" tube built by Jonathan Bates over at Black Barrel Customs for my most recent experiments and find that it works pretty well. you can check that out at:
ruclips.net/video/jW78634rocw/видео.html
He sent me one of his "Conestoga" builds based on a current production Daisy 105 Buck with a ton of mods including a "Blue Hare" air tube and the gun runs a consistent 400 FPS with a standard Daisy Red Ryder mainspring. It's remarkable!
@@RestOModDaisy lol another gearhead here but I have an idea. With your dual port version you have dual streams of air coming in from both sides. Air has momentum just like everything else. Air is coming in one side and due to momentum is fighting the air coming in the other port. Now compound that with the dead air between the ports and crimp creating vacuum. It's just like the old school breathers on a carburetor. If you remember the center was like a dome with air coming in from all directions before going 90° into the carburetor. By flipping the breather lid upside down it created an inverted dome eliminating most of the dead space where vacuum was created above the carburetor. Perhaps if you could pin a wedge shaped divider inside the tube it could fix both of those issues.
@@nashvilleoutlaw Thanks for the input on airtube mods. As you can see from the comment section here, there are a lot guys with a lot knowledge on this topic! I just got a custom shot tube and piston combo from Terry Cowger (America's Top Custom Daisy Modder) that ditches the airtube completely. I'm planning to install it on each of the guns in my Range Remuda and see how it runs. Expectations are in the 500 FPS range based on tests by Terry and Mark Ritter over at Cobalt 327.
@@RestOModDaisy That's cool I can't wait to see the results. Does he have a website? I'd love to see what all is different from stock. I had something similar to a buck 30+years ago and just ordered a red ryder yesterday so it should be in this weekend. 500+fps would be really nice with a single pump lever action. That'll rival the old powerline 880's without all of the pumping, the metal ones not the new plastic junk ones of course.
@@nashvilleoutlaw Terry has a RUclips channel located here:
www.youtube.com/@BB-BLASTERS-BY-TC
but if you want the skinny on the latest and greatest on these super high speed muzzle loading shot tubes head over the The High Road forum and check out the "$15 Dollar Daisy" thread. Pages 72 to 77 provide a whole lot of detail. I consider that thread to be the Modern Daisy Modders Bible
www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/putting-a-little-more-power-in-a-15-00-daisy.807316/
off set the 2 ports as the sir is flowing in they are fighting each other cut one air port and cut next 1/16 inch above bore of the lower air flow will be better
I'll explore that on the next prototype but only after I build a single port version first. The interior diameter of the stainless tube is huge compared to the 7/64" overbore and should transport quite a bit more air. We'll see what happens!
was thinking very similar, a little offset and oval them a little. don't want the holes so large diameter it makes it weak, but surface area of the two holes should be slightly larger than surface area of exit hole. making the ovals (diamond burr in a dremel?) kinda leaning the holes in direction of air flow. offset may need slightly more than 1/16" (not much!), this is fun "little engine" stuff.
@@modelnutty6503 Aren't you an RC car aficionado? This is basically and exhaust problem so what do you RC modders do for better exhaust flow?
@@RestOModDaisy The larger ID of the SS tube is the issue. Larger dia means slower velocity for the same volume of air. that's one of the benefits of the original air tubes, they were hardier and also had a smaller ID so the exit velocity of the air is faster. As my dad was fond of saying, my dollar against your nickel.....
@@tomr9306 An interesting wager. I know for a fact that the 7/64" overbore single port airtubes provide more velocity than the stock OEM tubes. I have oodles of chrono readings to verify that. The dual port tubes in thin wall stainless did provide a very slight bump but not consistently and certainly not worth the effort involved in fabbing them up. I have yet to investigate further and have recieved lots of info on port size, port placement and possibly inducing some kind of 'swirl" into the airflow via internal flutes. I think the parameters of the bet are a bit wide, but if you want to nail down some details, single port/dual port/standard tube/overbore tube etc, I have a Nickel to risk.
Id really like to work with you on these. Our process seem to be the same style and i have a crazy passion for this. The stainless tubing has been the best to make from scratch air tubes reminder to readers you can cause a double feed if you have a just 2 short AT i have rebuild a few of my broken dual ports. Wish they still used the old plunger. More spring space and a flat surface fore the spring to meet instead of a pin that to me would to me warp spring in long run
Okay, what we need here is some engineering. The factor that controls how fast the BB is going to go is air velocity not air volume. Take the same shot tube with the same volume of air and the air velocity will be higher in a smaller diameter tube. An engineer with all the dimensions can calculate the optimum values for each. I'm surprised Daisy doesn't do this, or maybe they do. I could do this if I had all the numbers. Shane, the reason yours is lower velocity is because the air will pass slower as the tube diameter gets larger. That's physics, just saying...
Craigster, I was told there would be no math. The results of this experiment indicate you are right, the larger tube diameter did not result on more speed on this build. More experiments later!
Just a thought. I say if you just reduce the tips Inside diameter to the OEM spec via insert or rolled with a manderal . Bottlenecking it right before the BB instead of at the beginning of the tube.
@@benjohnson2421 Nope! that will create turbulent airflow. You need a smooth bore of the optimum diameter.
@@craigster1952 There is a thing called tube restriction. You could turn little internal cone to direct a smooth flow. It gets bottlenecked in the tube entrance anyway. So how is forcing more air volume (larger ID) faster right behind the bb and max pressuer at the tip instead of 3" behind the BB at the seals, not work? Nozzles work better for pushing things along.
Weaved in a spring for a toy version of the RedRyder (model 900 something) with the spring for my Heddon 102. Gots some balls now. Its shorter so your can still set the spring with ease. Doesn't take hold till you cock it.
The low swept volume in Daisy chambers would benefit more from pressure/volume flow balance over simply exhausting the volume more readily.
The small tube (95, etc) Daisy guns have about 1.15 cubic inch volume chambers, where the larger guns (Ryder) have 1.25 cubic inch chambers. Not a lot at all. Factory form, they are rather efficient systems.
Find the barrel to chamber volume.... On small bore guns, higher pressure with small volume will always perform better than the same volume moving at lower pressure (open port too far).
Example-garden hose with running water. Put your thumb on the end of the hose to decrease the opening and it increases the water pressure.
I need to make a video. This last summer when I installed one of Marks complete plunger assemblies, equipped with a 327 and big air tube, in to my very new 1938ARR, I got some astounding numbers. I went from 282 fps to 386 fps. Eventually after a couple hundred shots it settled in at around 368-370. I notice the seal on Marks assembly fits my tube much more snug than the factory assembly. Its fun to shoot but I do notice it is quite jarring if it fails to pick up a BB and dry fires. I worry about the hit the abutment takes on a dry fire.
I agree! I'd love to see a video about your modding experience. The current production abutment seal is pretty stout and I don't think you'll suffer any long term damage as a result of the occasional failure to fire. Gravity feed systems do require elevation of the muzzle for consistent operations. Your speed increase is on par with what I've seen in converted current production guns with the same set up. What made Johnathan's build so interesting was he got that same bump without a high power spring, one of the foundations of the power triad as I've come to understand it. Of the two variables, a dual port air tube and an an incredibly long shot tube I could only replicate the air tube. It was enough was not enough to replicate the result so it's time to redo the airtube and start looing into extending the shot tubes. Shoot the video! It's fun!
@@RestOModDaisy I live up here in WA state so as soon as we get a break in our winter rain, I will set up the chrony and make some video.
One thing I think we need to take into account is the mass of the power assembly. The spring isn't just compressing air, it is having to move the weight of the spring, air tube, washer, seal, cross pin, assembly struts and stirup forward. I believe the weight reduction in Johnathans brass air tube setup also contributes to the velocity increase.
I think your thin wall tube weighs less than factory Daisy and should result in an increase, just in weight reduction. I also believe if someone were to "swiss cheese" the power assembly struts to reduce weight but not strength that there should be a velocity increase.
I think the Daisy single port design and air gathering channels of the compression seal and abutment washer, are a manufacturing simplification. Allowing the port to always align with an air channel, during rapid manufacturing. Also it takes less time and cost to make one functional hole in the air tube.
The old dual port design did not need air channelization. I think the dual port design would work better without the air channels. I believe if a custom smooth faced compression seal were used this would reduce weight, increase air chamber volume and flow better into the dual ports. It might even work better if smaller ports were used in a quad port configuration. If a custom smooth faced compression seal were made, a smooth faced abutment would need to be configured as well.
I believe an effort of maximizing air chamber volume for the given space and reducing the weight of the power assembly will allow a weaker spring to perform more efficiently.
Another untested theory is that of flat wound springs. A flat wound power spring can give you more available energy for less weight in the same space as a round wound coil spring. I have been using a flat wound hammer spring in one of my PCP's with great success.
@@Backin_Theday Man that's a lot! Head over to this page before the snow leaves and take a gander
www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/putting-a-little-more-power-in-a-15-00-daisy.807316/
It's the Daisy Modder Bible and it's 59 pages of ad hoc engineering. More food for thought!
@@RestOModDaisy Looks Like need to register there. Just the highlight public view looks like lots of people have tried many variations.
@@Backin_Theday It's a steady work in progress and well worth the price of admission.
Home making your ATs is easy and great inner diameter I get about 10k shots from a homemade. Shape of the port I find changes flow. The leather seal plungers give you more room for those tight coil springs. Leather needs more shot tube cleaning but it is tight and flexible seal worth trying. I have a broken 2 port old style with my own tubing. FYI the abutment with throw into chamber using the seal that go with the plunger. I did it to my 111b to make a 457 sharps look alike I miss the 2 magnet abutments. I'm guessing your tubing is from a telescopic magnet or mirror right?
Just found and like your channel. I have been rebuilding, designing, and building airguns for about 20 years now. I prefer pneumatic designs.
One modification I have done to these Daisy's is line the compression tube with seamless thin walled brass tube. This also required a redesign in the abutment seal and piston seal, mainly for diameter reduction caused by the brass tube. I got a modern Ryder shooting 415 with a standard spring. For the piston and abutment seal, I used polyurethane stock and machined an o-ring gland on them.
Seeing your videos is prompting me to get a 499 and modify it the same way. Though, not certain it the 499 will accept a model 25 shot tube.
Willace, thanks for jumping in and welcome aboard! I'd love to hear more about your work. Other than really clean the compression chamber I've never thought about relining it. Is this a mod you do on the pre-1978 Daisy's with the metal abutment washer or is it doable on the shot tube/abutment assembly guns? 415 FPS has my attention, especially with the standard spring.
There are some folks working on a 499 repeater, head over to the High Road Forum and check the last 6-7 pages of this thread
www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/putting-a-little-more-power-in-a-15-00-daisy.807316/page-56
They're working on getting a highly modified Model 25 shot tube married up with a 499b abutment for use in a 400+ FPS Daisy repeater. Quite interesting.
@@RestOModDaisy I'd say it is possible with all years. The modern guns use a shelf to retain the abutment, which does make things easier.
I have a machine shop setup in the garage. Two mills, a lathe, etc. Certainly comes in handy for making those one-off parts to make things work.
Lining the tube was the first thought since it is seamed and promotes pressure loss. I've not seen one that wasn't. Once I found the actual bore size of the compression chamber and machined up the appropriate brass tube, it was retained in place using the spring anchor retainer point so it didn't slide during operation.
Looking at the diagrams for the 499, seems pretty straightforward. A new abutment will need machined to accommodate the model 25 shot tube along with the addition of an actual plunger assembly. The approach will be to go with a one piece abutment which incorporates an o-ring seal that rests inside the brass seamless compression tube, yet rests on the shelf if the faux barrel.
Found an old 499 on ebay I may just grab up and try.
@@willacewallace5905 Please keep us in the loop on your project. IRRC the 499 plunger assembly does not utilize an airtube like other Daisy's but is muzzle loading single shot rifle, so you'll need to mod the factory plunger head to account for that. Any possibilities of making some videos of the process?
@@RestOModDaisy Sure thing. I'll do up some videos. Though, just picked up a Daisy 1000 at a good price. So, the 1000 will be the test mule for mods.
The first gun that was modified I gave away on an airgun forum (Yellow) a few years back in a raffle.
I sent you PM on eBay asking about wide body stocks. Looking to see where they are sold or it if you have them for sale.
@@willacewallace5905 Willace, I've been off the ebay platform for about a year as their draconian communications policies were just too much to bear. I still do stock work but haven't done a Fat Bob glue up since about March. Seems everybody wants a Slim Jim. Send me an email and we can what we can do.
You increased the flow and decreased the pressure. Keep the larger ID tube with two inlets and try soldering or rolling in a small reducer in the tip. And will also reinforce the tip as well.
When a bb fails to
load on a new Red Ryder does it cause any potential damage when fired ? Thanks for the fabulous videos.
What does the air do? Cause stability to the BB or is the Air not the plunger impacting the BB?
The air tube transfers the compressed air charge from the compression chamber to the rear of the shot tube when the trigger is pulled and the plunger is released. The tip of the airtube makes contact with the BB in and kick starts the the BB on it's way as the compressed air accelerates it down the barrel to the intended target so it's a combination of the two forces.
@@RestOModDaisy Love this but never knew! Thankyou for explaining. You're awesome!
Wonder if the air tube tip actually hits the bb? Air may have the bb moving before tip gets there 😂
It looks to me that the air inlet holes you made are a little bigger than the others. Maybe try making one with a little smaller holes would increase the pressure just a thought. Great video love learning about this stuff.
True. I used a 1/8" drill bit for both ports. The good news is that the airtube ran 450+ BB's through he gun flawlessly and there is no indication of shot peening on the tip. There are some suspicious marks on the shaft about .80" above the inlet ports as well as some straight line wear near the tip of the air tube. This was used with a current production Model 25 shot tube and was powered by a Cobalt 237 Super Spring in a Daisy Model 1838 Red Ryder receiver with a metal stamped trigger and a synthetic seal set. We'll see how the next couple of prototype fare with some tweaks.
@@RestOModDaisy See if you can maybe offset the holes for a vortex type of action. Instead of drilling them at right angles... try canting them in an upward fashion and off slightly to one side. Obviously I tend to agree with Blackie about offsetting them.
If we could get the air to flow like this, we'd be bb kings. ruclips.net/video/fj2JEj6XCi8/видео.html
I think we all know air takes the least path of resistance.any chance the air partially escapes at the crimped end of your air tube? Is there something to the shape of the intake ports? Keep doing what you’re doing! We love your content!
Thanks drtstar1! I'm pretty sure the crimp is ok but there might be some blow back along the out side of the airtube wall. I'll know more after I get the next air tube built with a single port for comparison. I'm also gonna have to try adding shot tube length to see if that gets me closer to Nathans numbers.
@@RestOModDaisy I’d also be curious to see the dimensions of the stainless tubing vs Nathan’s brass tubing. If precision ground bb’s make that much difference, I’m sure nominal wall thickness of a few thousandths could contribute to your air loss.
@@drtstar1 Good point. I know there a difference between the OD of the Stainless tube and the OD of a stock Daisy air tube, and the stock Daisy tube will allow you to see some daylight if inserted into the base of the Model 25 shot tube. I'm hopeful that the .135" ID of the stainless tube with provide more air once I can get the port size/location/number sussed out.
Morning Shane I have another question. I have a model 98. How can I tell if its a 50’s version or 70’s version? I don’t see a serial number or lot number on it anywhere. Does that indicate 50’s?
After the model there is a “registration” number L175238
@@WalnutandSteel The registration number system was started by Daisy in 1952 and evolved for a few decades until the lot number system replaced. Here's link to article about that over at J&G airguns that was extracted from David Albert and Gary Garber, major Daisy Guru's
www.jgairguns.biz/daisy-register-lot-and-serial-numbers-explained-ezp-55.html
Best I can figure based on the Lot number is November 1981 since the lot number switch happened in 1972. Yours does have a bottle cap right?
It is a bottle cap
@@WalnutandSteel That makes it pre 1978-79 as that's when they switched to the fixed shot tube/abutment assembly. Could be 1981 or 1971 on the manufacturing date.
Thanks for the help! I had read an article online that said the 98 was only made from 55-60 and then again in the mid to late 70’s. Do you know if that is the case?
I could not find a video about it but I've had issues with my buttons coming out of some of my older guns IE my 111 and my 11140. Is there a method to putting them back in and just wing it cuz they have ears on them requiring them to be installed with the sleeves on the so I don't know how popped out the sleeve. Identic Cecily Bang from the Muslim anything like that the one came out when I was pushing the seal out. If you could have a video or any remedy on three installations is cuz I have found you can put them in b-series guns successfully utilizing copper piping to fill that space and then tamping on in by Hammer that was a punch Mark together but those are already smoothbore inside I need a remedy for the sleeves smaller Chambers. I do Oddball things Shane is something I'd like to show you eventually but it's over go up that way and see you or Mark but as always remember where it all starts starts with a Daisy
No entiendo el funcionamiento de ese tubo en el arma.
Podrías explicarme por favor ???
Andre, I don't speak your language. Can you get a translation done?
@@RestOModDaisy
I don't understand how that tube works in the gun. What is that tube for!?
Seems to me its more slam-precussion than pneumatic
I think I have a solution for your dual port tube. Look at the way the others are ground upen. Yours is just a round hole
Why would we modify the air tube and spring assembly to achieve 400 fps on a Daisy Red Ryder with poor accuracy at best, cause they're fun, nostalgic and a marvel of design. Just wish parents would teach their kids not to shoot animals, they've got a hard enough as it is.