During my first five watch throughs of this show I was 100% hating Riley. But as I have gotten older I see both sides are to blame in their own ways. But this episode never fails to make me dislike him a tiny bit more. But to be fair this episode also makes me dislike Xander a bit too.
@@jasonsaroyan in the beginning I think the majority of anti Riley feelings have to do with him not being Angel. At least for me when I first saw him. Afterwards Riley does have some cringey lines but really isn't that bad of a character but also doesn't fit with Buffy for the long run. I think Passion of the Nerd does a really good job of breaking down why many people feel this way towards Riley.
It all depends on your definition of “love.” I think Buffy loves Riley but I don’t think Riley is “the one.” Just because Riley doesn’t make her feel the same passion as Angel, doesn’t mean she can’t feel genuine romantic love for him… but I don’t think anyone sees him as husband material for her.
Regarding her love for him, I'm not sure. I think Buffy is also traumatized by what happened with Angel and to some extent Parker and doesn't exactly allow herself to lean on other people much. And I think they're both not great at communicating - Riley has his own demons to face and the need to have a purpose and be needed. And Buffy can't give him that. So I think they're wrong for each other but maybe they just express love differently and neither feels heard or understood.
Yeah I agree. I think that, despite the mistakes made by both in the relationship, ultimately I don't they are compatible (due to personalities, love languages, personalities, etc)
Buffy loved Riley but wasn’t in love with him and he felt it. He was depressed and depression can cause poor decision making. I feel for him. I think Buffy realized that she hadn’t put her whole heart into the relationship and didn’t want to give up on it because Riley was a good man. It wasn’t that she realized she loved him but that she realized he was worth loving and that she should really open herself up to that possibility.
I kinda understand Riley...He wasn't loved in the way he needed to be and sometimes thats okay as long as you dont pull some bullshit ultimatium lol this episode was unfortunately bound to happen. 💜
@@danniethedemon of course you know I never said you didn’t. Some people need to be loved differently some need daily affirmations and some don’t 🤷🏼♀️
Here's my thoughts on the "Does Buffy love Riley" question: 1) Buffy's relationship with Angel was all-consuming. It was a deep intense love, unquestionably so. 2) There's no way to recapture that kind of relationship in the exact same way. Buffy was never going to have the same kind of love for Riley. 3) Despite that, I do think that Buffy loved Riley, just in a different way. Like in the way that you have a more mature love versus the intense passion of a first love, I think Buffy loved Riley for the ways he wasn't Angel. Angel may have been Buffy's equal in supernatural abilities, but Riley brought a stability that Buffy needed, one that she can never have with Angel because he's a cursed vampire and they're doomed to have to keep a certain kind of distance from one another always. 4) Even though I do believe Buffy loved Riley, I also think she may have under-appreciated his reliability and steadfast love of her. I think she allowed the comfort and safety she felt with him to lull her into trusting that he'd always be there, and as such, she stopped paying as much attention to him as she used to. (Not unlike you see with couples where one stops noticing the other, so the other seeks out a cheating relationship to fulfill what they're not getting at home. Which is what we saw happen with Riley. Of course, he didn't communicate that to her, so that part's on him. You can't be mad at someone and expect them to read your mind.) 5) Although I feel that Buffy stopped paying attention to Riley, some of that behavior I feel is completely warranted. If you think about it, she has had a LOT going on this season. The appearance of Dawn, finding out who Dawn really is (and how she needs to hide and protect her), all of that is a gigantic burden on Buffy's shoulders. Add to that Glory, who is so powerful she can kick Buffy's ass, and that they don't know how to defeat her... that's another gigantic weight on Buffy's shoulders. And THEN her mom gets sick, which is a huge worry. And Buffy needs to step up and take care of her sister and help her mom get answers and take care of her mom... again, a huge emotional weight that can be very draining. On top of all that, she had an enormously intense experience at the end of season 4, when she combined her powers with Giles, Willow and Xander, and then had that dream connecting her with the original Slayer, which stirred a concern and questioning about her own powers, the depth of what it means to be a Slayer, what her true purpose is... major existential stuff. So she's had physical challenge (getting her ass kicked), emotional challenge (Dawn and Joyce), and mental challenge (seeking her true path in life), none of which is small potatoes, so to speak. That's an enormous load on Buffy's mind and shoulders. One could say she's got enough on her plate without also having to balance out Riley's feelings. Of course as his girlfriend it's important to be there for him as well, but... in a time when she's got SO MUCH riding on her, the last thing she needs is to have to worry about Riley too. For him to be all whiny about her not loving him or needing him enough, and seeking out vampire dens in retribution, that's the last thing Buffy needs to deal with. I don't doubt that they would have had stuff to work through eventually, but now was not the time for him to add to her struggles. And for him to give her an ultimatum, to make a decision practically five minutes after she found out about his infidelity? That's so wrong. I'm with Nick on that one -- there's no way anyone would be able to process their anger and feelings of betrayal and confusion and hurt in less than a day, and for what? To have to "immediately decide" you want to keep a relationship when you haven't had time to even think about if you want to keep it after what you just found out? Riley's ridiculous in that sense and it always ticked me off that he wanted her to prove her love to him in that moment, after she just found out he'd been cheating on her. I'd be like, hell no, YOU have some proving to do at this point. Because how can I ever trust you again? It's a tough storyline, and as Nick pointed out, it had a bummer of an ending. But I suppose it was probably always meant to end someday. They had some nice compatibility and were perhaps what each needed from each other for a time, but nothing will ever be the same as the intense connection Buffy had with Angel.
"Angel may have been Buffy's equal in supernatural abilities"Which is ultimately the reason why Buffy could never have a regular human as a boyfriend. She _needs_ someone who is her"equal"in terms of superpowers and supernatural responsabilities,otherwise he would never be able to truly understand her(and possibly be constantly jealous/envious of her,at least a little bit)and it's highly probable he won't be able to help her/support her during her daily fight. It's the classical"superhero girlfriend problem"...only here Buffy is the superhero and Riley is the girlfriend!;-P "he's a cursed vampire and they're doomed to have to keep a certain kind of distance from one another always."Also he's immortal and she's not.Even without the curse they are still doomed if they don't find a solution to _that_ problem. "You can't be mad at someone and expect them to read your mind."And yet Buffy expected pretty much that when Riley met Faith in her body!>;-( If the roles were reversed,I don't think _she_ would have recognized _him._ She simply doesn't know him enough. Every single thing you said in point N°5 is 100% true,but the question is...how many of these things does Buffy discuss with Riley?If the answer is not"none"I think we're still close enough...as you said,you can't expect someone to read your mind...it was easy to see that Buffy was worried and stressed about her mom,but all those other things were mostly"Slayer stuff"that she always keeps Riley away from...I can't blame him for feeling excluded...she DOES exclude him from her life!Constantly!She's basically making with him the same mistake the Scoobies made with Faith:not making her feel welcome and really"one of them"(people keep pointing out how Riley is absent during the:"We're family."scene like it's not a bad thing.💔)...and how did that end?That Faith went to seek love and approval to someone else AKA the Mayor and Riley did exactly the same with the vampire ladies at one point. The point is not much that Buffy _should_ include Riley,the point is _if she doesn't feel the NEED to do it_ maybe _that's_ the sign he's not the right guy.Because I'm pretty sure she _would_ have talked to Angel about Dawn and Glory and the First Slayer etc. if they were still together,even only to see if he could have or find some useful informations,since he knows the supernatural world(while Riley does not),which again brings me to my point N°1:Buffy needs a super-human boyfriend to match with her own super-humanity.U _____ U "And for him to give her an ultimatum, to make a decision practically five minutes after she found out about his infidelity? That's so wrong." I agree. I think that was the result of Riley's feelings boiling for a long time and finally exploding. It's the problem you're likely to have when you lack communication...you keep a lot of issues to yourself and then they come out all together during the 1st big fight/at the worst possible time.(Makes me think of _another_ couple,but I can't say more to avoid SPOILERS...;-P🎵) "It's a tough storyline and, as Nick pointed out, it had a bummer of an ending. But I suppose it was probably always meant to end someday. They had some nice compatibility and were perhaps what each needed from each other for a time, but nothing will ever be the same as the intense connection Buffy had with Angel." *SO TRUE.* 💛🖤 I think Buffy&Riley were never _right_ for each other,Riley was just _convenient_ for Buffy because it's not the 1st time she tries to have"a normal boyfriend"(she even SAID that that's what Riley was supposed to be at one point)to delude herself she can have a normal life/relationship despite being the Slayer and Riley...I think he simply had a big crush. He never _truly_ understood Buffy as a person (not that she made it easy for him),he just superficially liked her,but they were just not compatible for many reasons...their personalities,their experiences on life,their view of the world, their attitude with figures of authority...
2 is sad. Excellent comment, Riley was correct in thinking Buffy should've come to him with all the stress going on in her life, but they're both bad at communicating, and that shouldn't have been a breaking point of their relationship. Most of the humdrum of their relationship was for the viewers, though, if you look at the what literally happened they actually had a fun time together. He wasn't the best boyfriend she _could_ have, but it wouldn't have been the worst thing for them both if they had stayed together.
@@alicequinn505 Now that I think about it, I shouldn't be surprised at their troubles with communicating. It's kind of been that way since the very beginning. 🙂 The whole thing about the Hush episode was all the ways people struggle to communicate when they literally can't talk (and how much we struggle to communicate with one another even when we CAN talk, lol), and ended with Riley and Buffy finding out something huge about each other but sitting there facing one another, still unable to find words even after they got their voices back. 😄 You're totally right about how bad they are at communicating. It's never been an easy thing for them.
The reason why Spike, Druscilla, Darla and Angelus have more human emotions and qualities than other vampires is because they’re significant vampires. They have more screen-time so they have to be interesting than just your one-note “I need to kill and feed” vampire. They have to have characterization that resonates with the audience otherwise there’s no point to watching them. If Buffy spent any time with the vampires she kills on sight, she’d likely figure the same out. That they’re not just mindless monsters to murder. Still evil and soulless but have complex emotions just like she does. If the show went that way… delving into what makes a monster… I mean. And whether she should just be staking them as soon as they rise from the grave without no thought for whether they might actually be able to choose. Might have free will. Harmony is also another significant vampire but not as significant as Spike, Dru, Darla and Angelus. But even she shows human emotions and qualities that are interesting about her. That show that she’s not just a monster who needs to kill and feed and that’s it. She has other interests. A lot admittingly selfish and vain but they were when she was human so… I don’t think it has anything to do with being sired from any special vampire bloodline or anything like that. I just think that Buffy and the Gang slay and ask questions later. And perhaps they’re wrong for that, you know? And maybe they should be taken to task on that. Maybe that should be a storyline. That they’re killing conscious beings that might actually possess the capability and capacity to be good even if they are soulless, even if they are a vampire/demon. It’s possible given what we have with Spike, Dru, Darla and Angelus. They can’t be the only ones that carry human emotions and qualities. It’s not out of the realm of possibility that other vampires can.
What provokes more discussion than the Buffy-Riley relationship? I think the writers are having a quiet laugh as we endlessly analyze Buffy and Riley endlessly analyzing!
Yeah I definitely do not hate him. He's human (not to mention young like you said) and like most of the characters in Buffy he makes mistakes. That's part of what I love about the show... the real flaws shown in most of the main characters
I agree with you on Buffy not loving Riley (at least not the same way he loves her). Not sure if she actually realices it though. Buffy always has so much stuff on her plate and so many things to worry about that labelling him the guy who "will always be there" even if he's not being paid attention to, is just ... human.
Riley trying to justify "cheating" on her because he didn't feel "loved/desired" and Xander defending him is one of the worst choices in the entire show.
I agree with a lot of what you say and all of your reasoning. I just have a different conclusion: I love both Buffy and Riley, and they both made very human mistakes, Buffy was really kinda terrible to him since a long time in a very unaware self-righteous sort of way, and no-one can convince me that Riley wasn't justified in asking for a reason to stay, I really grieved and cried when Riley left the show, but I still think Riley is more wrong than Buffy, simply because of the cheating thing. I don't care that it was blood-sucking or whatever, cheating is way more than making out or having sex with some-one else.
And can I just add this, even though it makes me sound like a terrible person even in my own head, but just because your spouse has bigger family life and death stuff that has to come first, it doesn't automatically mean that all your relationship problems are suddenly over, it just means they get put on back-burner while you have even more stress and have even less time to deal with anything; I have accepted it as a reality of life despite how tasteful it's really not. Riley obviously wanted to have a conversation with and/or end it with Buffy the entire time right from the 4th or 5th episode, but he couldn't make it about himself and/or leave Buffy while her mom was so sick; the timing was never right. Which is why this blow-up needed to happen right after her mom got well. No-one can blame Buffy for being occupied with her mom, but I can't blame Riley for feeling all the effects of it either, it's just human, you can shelve your needs for some time while you are there for your partner (which, BTW, Riley was, big time), you can put someone before you, but you can't put someone instead of you. Riley could have communicated better, but come on, a relationship isn't a transaction or a business meeting, Buffy could also have just seen that he was really hurting, it was on his face the entire time. That's all Riley wanted, for Buffy to see him. In his head, if he had to speak out his pain and ask for love, it would defeat the entire purpose, coz he didn't want Buffy to repeat her assurances from episode 4, he wanted her to SEE him. I know it was stupid, but that's just how feelings work sometimes, I can understand this, even if I don't agree with it.
@@asthajindal5275 Also Buffy has time to tell all her other friends about her personal issues and deal with monsters, but notice how Riley was rarely even invited to Scooby meetings anymore. He had to learn about everything from Spike of all people. I can see why Riley felt unloved. The least she could've done was allowed him to come out with them for Scooby issues but she couldn't even do that.
@@asthajindal5275 I agree with everything you said and,I must say,this makes me even more angry with Buffy for blaming Riley for"cheating"on her with Faith.Girl...I don't think you would have recognized _him_ if you were in his same situation...you simply don't know him enough.X-/
@@NicamonI agree with that too. I think it's a case of main-characteritis that Buffy succumbs to from time to time. It's when Buffy acts way too self-righteous, or is shown as the wronged party, or shown as the offending party, in defiance of previous plot direction or character development or intention plausibility, simply to drive home a lesson the writers thought important enough to spell out.
@@asthajindal5275 What bothers me about when this happens is that I've seen the fandom fiercely taking Buffy's side even when she was (at least IMO) *clearely in the wrong* like in ep 7x19(it's not a SPOILER,I'm not saying anything specific...YOU know what I'm talking about).
"I told him to make plans with his friends" What friends? I don't say this to defend Riley, but the way they wrote him they made Buffy his entire world.
Riley's ultimatum was necessary. Why would he stay in Sunnydale if Buffy didn't love him? She's the only reason he's there. He'd truly have nothing if he lost both Buffy and his job. He made the right decision.
It's not really an ultimatum. He's actually being honest, for once. He's telling her what the two options for him are at the moment and leaving it up to her to make clear what she wants.
As I understand it, she actually DID love Riley. Hence why she turned around & ran to what turned out to be a meeting that never happened. That outburst she had at Angel's was not Buffy shoving her new BF down his throat to make him feel jealous but what I now believe to be Buffy letting her guard down for once and letting out her true feelings about Riley. Still she did treat him like the rebound guy and he never knew that she actually did love him.
@@miaamer7718 Because she ignored every warning signs and even his betrayel & STILL chose to run after him. Sure, the relationship wasn't as magical as with Angels and sure it was never gonna last but she DID love him still.
@@zahrans Sweetheart, did you ever stop to think that maybe,just maybe the reason she ran after him was because of all her abandonment issues.Not to mention, the guilt trip Xander gave her before hand, not that she actually loves him?
Sigh. I actually like how this season/episode handles the breakup.... right up until Xander mouths off about a situation he doesn't even understand (Buffy, girl, tell Xander that Riley cheated on you) and Buffy decides that she DOES want to make it work and runs after the helicopter. I think Buffy loves Riley as much as she's able to right now. It's clearly not meeting Riley's needs, and that's fair. But he doesn't talk to her about it (he never once tells Buffy that it bothers him that she hasn't said the L-word back to him), he makes Buffy's mom's health crisis about *his* feelings of not being needed, AND THEN HE CHEATS ON HER. I think it's a really interesting, nuanced, realistic look at a relationship falling apart, not because the two people don't care about each other, but because they're at different places, their lives are moving different directions, their wants and needs and goals don't match up any more. And then for some stupid reason, Xander convinces Buffy that she DOES want Riley after all. Honey, when he cheats on you instead of telling you he's feeling unloved, we gotta move on.
There was another reactor that said something about Xander's speech along the lines of, "that was a beautiful speech that I 100% disagree with." I feel like the writers were too insecure with having the relationship just fizzle out and felt like they needed a big melodramatic moment at the end. But fizzling out would have been more realistic. I would have preferred an ending scene that showed Riley flying off and Buffy joining her family to spend time with them--a visual sign that they are in different places with different priorities.
I think this fails to recognise Buffy's issues with abandonment. Buffy pined after Angel when they were on again off again (and never really got over him) She lamented all the other failed relationships (even before Scott. Do you remember Scott?) She pined after Parker even KNOWING he used her. This is quite literally her pattern. It's not COMFORTABLE, but it IS what she does. And Xander isn't wrong at any point in his speech. He's talking to his friend and asking her what she ACTUALLY wants. Sure, he's biased (much like Dawn, he has seen how good Riley has been for Buffy. And he hates vampires) but people *legitimately* feel angry that he asked her if she was really willing to let Riley go. And isn't clairvoyant.
Naw, I just often like to post counterpoints, bc I feel the fandom was VERY one sided for a VERY long time (as demonstrated in the comments section of this episode for basically every reactor :D) I actually think the conversation has progressed a lot in recent years ^^ I love a good debate though, so even if heated words DO get exchanged, I got no hate in my heart. I often despise Xander, tbh... BUT I feel I have to play devil's advocate quite a lot bc so many people hate him for trivial or shallow reasons. I mean, so do I... but I'm mature enough to know this :P (he's clingy, jealous, insecure, hypocritical and insensitive. But he DOES mature through the seasons and he has virtues. He's brave, loyal and by the end of the show genuinely shows real empathy and some wisdom) I'd compare the way he sometimes treats Anya to be VERY similar to the way Buffy treats Riley. Now, I sympathise a great deal more with Buffy... but I see those parallels. @@jjlonsdale5971
Riley is a difficult character to easily categorize and stamp. He is unlike any other male in Buffy's world and is motivated by a human standard of score keeping. Riley is most comfortable with other soldiers and guys doing guy things. He plays hoops, talks smack, and enjoys male bonding. Riley is the safe middle class guy that the non-slayer Buffy would want in her life. Xander's speech about the decency of Riley touches the pre slayer Buffy and he is a version of Ken to her Barbie. It sounds so measured and decent. What would Buffy not do what it takes to keep Riley? She evens runs to try and stop the helicopter and is convinced she needs to try and salvage their relationship. So wrong. Xander has never understood the inner being of Buffy or even Angel and Spike. Go back to Restless and Dracula and listen to Buffy being told several times that she does not know yet who she is and what her journey is about. Everyone tries to place Buffy in a cubbyhole they can understand and control. Riley gave Buffy some companionship and satisfied her sexual appetite, somewhat. But Riley never had a chance to be the partner to Buffy. Riley is a good solid soldier and order taker, but Buffy is becoming the greatest Slayer and the commanding general in the war against evil. Leadership is lonely and only Buffy can handle what has to be done to win the war. She is the chosen one, not Riley.
If you aren't yet, I highly recommend watching The Passion of the Nerd's analysis videos - especially the one about this episode starting at around minute 13 😅 explains the hate a bit. Overall I think his flaws come down to immaturity, trauma and bad writing. Overall he's a great guy and means well but still has to find his place in the world that is not defined by a woman (Walsh, then Buffy). Most fans often seem to confuse drama and hurt with love and passion and stability with boredom. I was one of them when I was younger lol
Those videos are generally amazing,but usually dark and full of spoilers...it's better to watch the whole show first,IMO. ;-P "Most fans often seem to confuse drama and hurt with love and passion and stability with boredom." *COUGH* Spike! *COUGH!*
Doomed is the word. In the episode "Doomed" Buffy told Riley that if their relationship was "doomed". I don't think that she was ready. All of her trauma from the ups & downs with Angel + the confidence shake up that was Parker. She wasn't ready for a relationship with anyone. My question is: why did she change her mind? I didn't find Riley's argument convincing at all. Insults & the admission that he didn't know what she went through, but somehow knows what's best for her. Seriously? ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
14:04 Psychologically they say the best thing when you're leaving a tough situation is just to not look back. Looking back makes it harder. So I think he didn't see her because he was forcing himself to keep his eyes ahead. He does, after all, have psychological and military training 14:17 You have yet to Fathom what Josh Whedon will do to us
I'm confused by this comment. As a psychology major, I'd say about half of counseling modalities have to do with reflection, probably more - especially psychodynamic, which this show really focuses on.
@@samanthas8340 don't get me wrong. Reflection is important. After you have left. When you decide you need to leave, do you need to keep focused and keep yourself moving forward. Reflect when you are away from the situation
@@reneeg9406 OK, I had to reread a few times but I understand now the point you were making. Riley is compartmentalizing his pain. I got confused by associating this to his psychology/military background. The initiative might have had a keep, moving forward and never look back approach but I wouldn't call that healthy.
@samanthas8340 It's not entirely healthy to keep looking back either. They say if you reflect too much on trauma it can make it worse. Thats why if you get hurt like in a military situation like Riley was trained in, you often have to get right back up, there's no time to pause and reflect, it can make it hurt worse.
Funny you kept saying their relationship was "Doomed" because that's exactly what she told him in "Doomed". I still don't think the writers did a good job of her 180 turn at the end of that episode when she just changed her mind to start dating him when her instincts told her " NO".
I know it irritates people, but it is a good reminder to not make a decision against an ultimatum because you hate ultimatums. Fight for what is worth fighting for despite how the choices presented to you.
Nah fuck that. You don’t give ME ultimatums when YOU were caught cheating just because it benefits you. Riley had no right to put that on her. That was his decision to make with what was presented to him. Not throw it to Buffy. He so called “knew” Buffy didn’t love him like he loved her and had every other reason, justified or not, to make his own decisions. You’re not gonna throw that particular aspect on Buffy
@@notyouraveragebear9326 totally understand that decision, but that isn’t what Xander’s speech is about. He asked her what she really wanted and not be blinded by how the decision was forced on her. If she really did not think the situation was worth fighting for, f**k that guy, but if she thought what they have could be something more - put the petty BS of the situation aside and make a decision based if she thought they could overcome it. Relationships are messy and I personally don’t think Riley was worth a second chance but she in the end did. Maybe this feels directed at me but I used to just shut down ultimatums regardless of what I wanted as I felt they other person was trying to manipulate me. As I grew up, I realized life will throw you curveballs and people are flawed communicators so I needed to make choices based on getting the best possible outcomes and not the semantics of the situation.
I feel like Buffy’s relationships with Angel vs Riley is spot on to the type of relationships women go through in life. Angel represents someone Buffy could never truly have. Whether that be due to rejection, time, space, emotional availability, etc. Riley represents the ”safe” guy - someone who will love her no matter what and she doesn’t need validation from. The differences in these scenarios is why some women never truly get over some men (aka Angel).
"low pay" the military services have a proud tradition of complaining about the pay, but for better or worse it was never up for discussion. riley has his rank. the military has a payscale that dictates what his base pay is going to be at that rank, probably exactly the same as he was last paid in the initiative. riley will also receive, at a minimum, hazardous duty pay, and hopefully combat pay as well. if he's working in south america, there probably won't be a local cost-of-living bonus. there was no need to discuss any of this because it was never up for negotiation; the law says "this is what you are paid for this work".
I've always said Buffy loves Riley. It may not be the way she loved Angel, but she loves him. She just has a hard time saying the words. And the cheating with the blood suckers is why I liked Riley until I didn't. It's a hard thing to forgive and it hurts Buffy deeply and then he's just gone. No chance to work through it, nothing. The best part of this episode, though, is Xander's speech to Anya. It is moment's like this where Xander shines. And Anya was totally on point the whole episode with her snark.
It's not about whether they loved each other. It's always easy to forget but remember Buffy is 21 right now and Riley is also mid 20s. It's easy to forget because of the actor's age. That's why Xander catches so much crap for the first three seasons because even though he's a teenager a full grown adult plays him. Basically the tragedy here is that they're too young to make this relationship work because they don't know how to process their own trauma in healthy ways. Buffy shuts people down because she truly believes she's better than everyone and that she's alone and Riley needs external validation to feel important and loved which is what he lost when the initiative went away and what the vampires were able to give him. It's actually pretty sad because as Xander pointed out and Buffy admitted, Riley was the most healthy of her relationships in the show(I'm an Angel fan, but he's 220 years older than her and severely limits her lifestyle) and she did love him. It could have worked. But as is often the case in your 20s, you're not ready for the good relationships yet because you're still growing.
Buffy definitely did *not* love Riley. And she didn't trust him enough to tell him about Dawn, because of his history with The Initiative. Riley feels she's keeping him on the outside and she is. She has a reason but he doesn't know that, so he thinks it's him. I think it could have been resolved if they had just talked about their relationship now and again, but they didn't. But yeah, she didn't love him. I think Riley was a good guy, but he wasn't right for Buffy. I'm one of the few who actually loved Riley and sympathized with him, I was kind of sad to see him go.
I sympathize with Riley too, and despite some of his big mistakes this season, I do feel bad for how things turned out this episode. I agree though, he just wasn't right for Buffy, even though he loved her
Didn’t they try and reach him and they couldn’t (presumably because he was getting bit by vampires)? For the meeting where they told everyone about Dawn, I mean? Or am I remembering that wrong?
I’m no Riley apologist but I am a Xander apologist and everybody has the weirdest and wildest takes on Xander’s position in the episode ‘Into The Woods’ that it honestly feels like people are emotionally projecting. He was not forcing or coercing Buffy to go after Riley and say she was sorry for not being upfront with him about her feelings for him. He was asking and motivating her to make a choice of either one or the other. To either let him go or stop him from leaving. To get passed the hesitation and deliberation and finally make a move. Take action. And the reason why it works that it’s Xander that tells Buffy this is because this is something he always struggles with himself. Not just in love and with his relationship with Anya - which the narrative makes a connection to when Buffy brings her up in retaliation to Xander’s comment about her treating Riley like a “convenience” and then when he comes home to Anya to tell her that he loves her - but also with the stagnancy of his life. So many fans view it as hypocrisy that Xander talks to Buffy like this when his own life is up in the air. But I think that’s precisely the point. It’s supposed to be hypocritical because this is Xander learning a lesson of self-awareness on the way he can be and how he sometimes treats the people that he loves. The speech he gives is very insightful not because it’s directed at Buffy, but because it is reflecting on himself and is necessary consciousness development that he needs for himself. For all the flaws that Xander has (and I am aware that he has a lot - although so does every protagonist character so why only he gets the short end of the stick in the fandom I don’t know) he grows through them on his own. Entirely by himself. He doesn’t need to be taught or told to grow. He does it naturally as any young person naturally should. Growing up is a huge theme for both Buffy and Xander’s development all throughout the show and that’s why I think it really works that it’s Xander that stands in front of Buffy in this episode, noticing the same old self-destruct pattern Buffy always goes on when any kind of relationship conflict happens to her. He knows her that well as her best friend that he knows that this is always something she does: it’s a pattern. And while I do acknowledge that it’s not ever his business to tell Buffy what to do regarding her love life (who to date, what to wear etc,...), I do also equally acknowledge that he represents Buffy’s metaphorical Heart, and so if Buffy’s having difficulty following it or listening to it, then it’s likely Xander does too in his own arc, however significantly less prominent than Buffy’s because he’s not the lead main character. The point is that the hypocrisy surrounding Xander’s position in this episode is precisely why he has it. The same can be said for his position in ‘Grave’. He is always the character to provide the necessary insight precisely because he is struggling with applying it for himself in his own life, - love life specifically - and at the same time that he is lecturing another character, he is also lecturing himself. Telling himself to take his own advice. His insight into another character’s life is his method of communicating with his Higher self. In the very moment where he is butting in unwanted, he is at the same time learning something about himself - something that he also has to contend and deal with. His insight is his self-development tool in that he eventually recognizes that he is being hypocritical. It is not him being an avatar of misogyny. His gender identity has absolutely nothing to do with why he does this - why his tendency is to involve himself in another character’s conflicts that he has no business being in and no right to comment on. This is how he grows, how he evolves. By getting in the way. By being a pain. By being a typical overbearing, controlling best friend who acts like they’re more than that. He uses what is considered in the fandom as his “annoying” or “problematic” traits to be a better person than he was yesterday because he sees through his own bullshit. He checks himself and then reassesses how he reacts. He grows through and out of his immature impulsions. Yes, he is being hypocritical. That’s precisely the point because that is how he develops as a character. If people would watch what he says to Buffy in that scene through the perspective of how it informs him as a character over how it informs her, I think they would have less of a negative reaction towards it. I think a lot of people do not like that the narrative seems to depict Xander as “the one that saves the day” or “the one in the right” whenever he does this sort of thing. But I genuinely do not see it that way whenever he does it. I see it as how he self-reflects. How he becomes aware of his own character flaws and then how he uses that insight to change them. What fans see as his worst moments, I see it as the opposite because I know it’s his way of growing up. And the best character moments to me are the ones in which a character has an epiphany of self-growth. Human consciousness is funny like that. We often find that when we are being our worst selves, we’re actually being presented with an opportunity to learn to be better. And what makes the difference is what we choose to do in the moment. Reflect on our behaviour as it is being pointed out to us and make an effort to change it going forward, or remain ignorant to it and perpetuate our worst personality traits and flaws. Never really growing but going round in circles. It’s the choice that matters. Always. And the reason why I like Xander as a character is because he really is someone who has no reason to be any better than the way he often behaves. He has never had any positive example of how to behave to look at and aspire to. No positive role model. And yet he almost always chooses to change his behaviour anyway as soon as he is aware of it. And that’s a very admirable quality to have. He is a very flawed character but his choice is to be better once he is aware of what his flaws are. And I love that. I love that Xander uses his worst self to be his best self. I think that is valid representation of the human condition. Of how we grow in our self-consciousness.
A lot of people don’t like Riley and give him a lot of hate. I personally liked him I thought he was a great character however his storyline was over after the initiative and he just became a clingy wet wipe. With everything going on in season 5 and in Buffy’s life I’m glad Riley left before his character was completely destroyed.
I always understood him and can very much sympathize with Riley's point of view - I just didn't like him as a character. Like, the fictional character Riley Finn is a decent and likable person, but he's dull to watch.
Yeah I'm happy his character made an exit, and I definitely think there was a change in who his character was between S4 & S5. To be fair to the writers though, I also think that Riley had a lot of built up issues/ underlying issues (largely due to his mind meddling in the initiative) that just needed a perfect storm of stress/ inattention to surface.
Thanks for noticing the contradiction in Xander's "nobody told me anything" line. Riley literally told him. And then Xander acted like he was so observant and Buffy was so blind when Xander hadn't noticed anything before being told, either. Xander has his own perspective on the situation and that's fine, but that's such an odd way to start his argument.
Also, I'm pretty sure he was referring to no one telling him that Riley cheated. Besides, Riley saying to Xander that she doesn't love him is very clearly just Riley's perception. It's good that Xander didn't take that and run with it. It's essentially hearsay since neither of them bothered to ask her. It's funny to me how Xander hates can be equally made at him for not saying anything and respecting their privacy and then making for saying something and meddling. Come on now? It's not like these things are black and white, their nuisance and situational. Being in Xander shoes decided what to do with that information is not easy, and I'm sure many have been in similar situations at times.
I loved Riley because I never liked Angel for her. I always thought Angel couldn't really love her or make her happy because in order to be happy himself, he needed sex from her. Like...oook 🙄 that's his truly happy moment? I also don't really like the broody type. They are just so boring cuz they're too busy brooding. 😂 I knew Riley wasn't her end game but I hated the way they ended. He loved her so much and she didn't even care. He was such a good bf but she just didn't love him. It was sad but I completely understand where she was coming from.
I keep flashing back to the first season episode of Angel, "Sanctuary," when Buffy tells Angel about her relationship with Riley, and says that it's "different" because she can "trust him" (which she says simply to be petty). Jump cut to this episode - I consider this some bad karma from Buffy coming back to bite her.
Never understood the hate for Riley. Both of them were to blame. Riley "cheated" by letting the vampires feed off him, and by giving Buffy an ultimatum. For Buffy's part, she was just using him. She took him for granted, and treated him as if he were nothing more than a safety net. It wasn't till the very end that she realized what she was losing. And, as usual, by that time, it's too late.
I can understand that Riley didnt feel like Buffy was as emotionally connected to him as he was to her, but that didnt give him license to lie to her and go get physical intimacy with someone else. Also, Xander does many stupid things throughout the show, but telling Buffy to go chase Riley ranks high on the list of stupid. Willow would have never.
The one thing that makes empathize with Riley is the fact when Joyce got sick, Buffy never really came to him for help, or comfort, or anything. Obviously she doesn’t need him to fight demons for her, but outside of that, she doesn’t really need him at all, and Riley knew it. The only time she really paid attention to him this season, is when everything fell apart.
He gave her solace but only after she processed things by herself. That would feel empty if you wanted to give your body heart and soul to someone who wouldn’t do the same (despite what she says)
Posting my BUFFY REWATCH recap for ‘Into The Woods’. May contain spoilers. Willow and Anya's issues with each other will be better addressed in my recap for the next episode but I thought I would talk a little bit about them in the recap for this episode too. One would think that the reason why Willow doesn't like Anya is because she's jealous of the relationship she has with Xander or she's jealous that Anya has Xander when she never really did. But that's not it. She may believe that Anya isn't good enough for Xander,... but Willow herself isn't interested in filling that role because she's well over Xander by now. Not just because she's gay but because Xander was never really interested in her to begin with. In fact, he only became interested when she was in a relationship with Oz and he was in a relationship with Cordelia. It was very much a "you only want me because you can't have me" kind of deal with them. We only want to have something when it's already been taken by something else. And that's what makes it so desirable. It being taken. Xander himself even makes that apparent in 'Some Assembly Required': “People don't fall in love with what's right in front of them. People want the dream. What they can't have. The more unattainable, the more attractive.” While Willow always desired Xander with or without a significant other, Xander only ever desired Willow when she was with hers. And furthermore, it's specifically because she was taken by another male. By Oz. Because it stands to mention that now she's with Tara - he has no interest in her as a lover. In fact he is more interested in them being lovers and wants to see them be sexually intimate with each other. Which is shallow. The truth is Xander never really loved Willow in a romantic/sexual way. But she loved him in that way. And now she knows that his love for her in that way wasn't true... She's over him and his shallowness. She couldn't care a less who he is with anymore. She knows he never deserved her in the first place because he never reciprocated the love she had for him. So Willow and Xander's love is purely platonic. They have no real love for each other in a romantic/sexual way. It was always just an infatuation thing because their friendship is so strong. Thus, strong friendship feelings were misinterpreted as romantic feelings. And while Willow did hold interest in Xander in that way once, she doesn't anymore because she now understands what real love is, what it looks like, what it means. And Xander was never it. So there's some other reason why Willow and Anya butt heads. If we go back to the episode 'Dopplegangland', we will remember that the first time they interacted, Anya used Willow to get back to her dimension so that she could become a vengeance demon again. Their first meeting made them already at odds with each other before Anya was ever interested in dating Xander. So in Willow's mind, Anya hasn't made up for being an ex-demon, and so she doesn't deserve to be liked. To Willow, Anya is still a vengeance demon and doesn't belong in their world. To Anya, Willow is a useless human that gets defended by everyone for doing what she believes is nothing. So they butt heads so often because they have no respect for each other as Scoobies or really as people in general. The next episode, 'Triangle', changes this, and we begin to see their relationship develop into - not friendship - but civilship. Because they are forced to spend the day working together to fix some shit, they learn to tolerate each other's existence. But I will address that more when I write my episode recap for that episode. In this episode recap I primarily wanted to make the point that Willow and Anya's issues have nothing to do with Xander.
I 100% agree it would’ve been better if Buffy realized she didn’t love Riley and let him instead of trying to get him back at the last minute. Also much more realistic. I hated the way she ran after that goomba.
But I think Buffy did love Riley. Not as passionately as Angel, and not as passionately as Riley wanted her to. But I am sure she was in that partnership not just because he was there, but she actually had some feelings towards him.
It doesn't matter who dumped who. At this point it's just good that it is over. I always felt bad for the actor who played Riley. It took him years to get back into the idea of the fandom because much of the fandom became rude towards him about his character during his run on the show and after. He was like the William Atherton (the guy who played Walter Peck in the first _Ghostbusters_ movie) of the Buffyverse, until only a few yars ago. I've seen fans argue that Riley's attitude and character comes out of nowhere this season. I heavily argue that. Starting back in _Something Blue,_ Riley says as the last line of the episode, "you're going to teach me." It has him telling her and not asking her. From there _Doomed_ comes along. In that episode, Buffy has genuine concerns about dating Riley. Despite having been casually dating Joe Normal Riley, she isn't ready to do so with soldier Riley because of her past with Angel, Faith and as the slayer. Riley calls her "stupid" and "self-involved" for not wanting to date him anymore. The reason this red flag usually isn't called out is because Riley hides the toxic masculinity attitude once Buffy decides to date him at the end of the episode. Personally, she wasn't ready to date. Willow and Riley both pushed her into it after Buffy said no. Riley lost his sense of self when The Initiative fell. Everything Adam said about Maggie designing him and being a "mother" to him had a ring of truth to it when he no longer knew how to handle life in general without the purpose The Initiative gave him. That purpose is now "The mission's boyfriend" (take care of Buffy while fighting at her side) as Graham eventually says to him (sad thing is that is in part why Angel needed to leave as well. He had no sense of self outside of being Buffy's boyfriend, either). In _The Yoko Factor,_ Riley starts showing jealousy. Riley's jealousy isn't because of Xander or Angel directly (although I don't think Xander should have said anything to Riley about the curse or his opinions on it). People's jealousies are their own, even when other people trigger them. Then we come to the Buffy and Riley forgiveness moment of that episode. Riley saying, "I'm so in love with you I can't think straight" put all Riley's jealousy blame on Buffy while he continues to act jealous until this episode. With said jealousy comes a bigger urge to be "mission's boyfriend" (take even bigger care of Buffy than before) in order to fill The Initiative's void. But he struggles to keep up with Buffy and in _Out of My Mind_ his body cannot take it after what The Initiative has done to his body and needs surgery. Riley told Xander in _The Replacement_ Buffy didn't love him. His realization of that led to him deciding to purposely start getting bit, in _Family,_ to understand Buffy. 🤦♂🙄🤦♀ He gets caught in this episode. I don't think it's that Buffy doesn't love Riley. She fought against dating him knowing she wasn't ready to begin with. Riley was a long term rebound from Angel she cared about. A different kind of love than what Riley wanted from her. Riley's actions as a result show the side of him that was building since early S4 (although probably a lifelong issue for Riley). When the two of them argue, Riley actually says he isn't giving her an ultimatum when that is exactly what he is doing. Riley's excuses for getting bit are weak attempts to justify the metaphor of paying for a prostitute (the drug metaphor was there too, but Riley defined connections between vampires and sexuality as well as got sucked by female vampires specifically [one in particular]) before giving her an ultimatum and telling her that isn't what he was doing, followed by stating directly as a closing line, "Unless you give me a reason to stay, I'm leaving tonight." When Riley tells Buffy the vampires needed him specifically, as if they wouldn't just move on to the next human with a wad of cash and available blood, it shows how far gone into his red flag territory he is. Same with saying its about him taking care of Buffy. It wasn't. It's about obsession. Riley's getting love and obsession mixed up at this point and become delusional if he thinks getting bit was the answer to her not opening up to people. She talked to him or asked him to open up when she saw he had heart issues, but he didn't until she forced the issue. But that doesn't mean pushing people to open up is the right answer either. Riley wanted to comfort her; to give his life that purpose of "Mission's boyfriend." Buffy's personality was already struggling with Riley wanting to do that as she is a strong, independent woman, but without The Initiative, Riley is depending on Buffy by trying to get her to depend on him. Buffy opens up to people and allows people to take care of her the way Riley was asking when they don't push her into said action and when she trusts the relationship enough. It took Giles until the end of _Helpless_ (22 months) before Buffy opened up to him that way. Riley has known Buffy 14 months and they have only been dating 11 months. If he was patient and didn't push it by doing things like trying to lean her head on his shoulder when that wasn't her natural reaction (and leave his jealousy behind), eventually she would have allowed him to "take care of her." Being "on top of everything" is in her job description. Riley's reaction to not getting those things from Buffy is obsession. Not love. I disagree with Riley when he said he could handle Buffy being physically stronger. A part of Buffy's problem is that she feels that she has to be as emotionally strong as she is physically and I don't think Riley had figured that one out because he is the one that's dependent on her. None of this includes the fact that Riley was asking for Buffy to be comforted by him when her mom was in the hospital, either. How Riley handles the fallout of this episode is a natural progression from the first red flags of Riley saying, "You're going to teach me" and calling Buffy "stupid" and "self-involved" until giving his ultimatum in this episode. Xander is, in many ways, similar to Riley. That is why he identifies with Riley when Riley tells Xander Buffy doesn't love Riley. Xander is remembering Buffy turning him down in _Prophecy Girl_ (and blocking out his own toxic reaction). Therefore when Buffy and Riley's relationship implodes, Xander guilted Buffy into chasing the helicopter down ("He's never held back with you," "think about what you're about to lose" and also him not caring that the ultimatum would lead to just as many problems in the Buffy/Riley relationship as they already have. None of these things seem to phase Xander. He is just identifying with Riley when nothing Riley has done is healthy to the relationship). Whether he guilted her intentionally or unintentionally is up for debate, but he acted like Riley's issues weren't part of the problem. Xander is pushing Buffy into his decision of what he wants her to do and not what she would do. I don't look at chasing the helicopter as a decision Buffy would have made if Xander didn't make her feel guilty. Buffy and Riley's problems are a reason to let Riley go and not chase after him. In my opinion, Xander was doing what he said he liked to do in _Enemies:_ say I told you so. Why didn't Xander bring their issues up to Buffy sooner if he was so worried? There has been nine weeks since Riley told Xander Buffy doesn't love him. Saying something only after it was too late (especially to the degree of how could you of not seen it coming Buffy) doesn't help the Buffy/Riley relationship even if Buffy had caught up to the helicopter. People claim he was trying to in an earlier episode. But under the circumstances metaphor was not the way to go. Directness was. Buffy and Riley have already shown on both sides non-communication skills since day one. Xander is identifying with Riley so much that he is showing Buffy blame without giving Riley at least equal due for Buffy and Riley's problems. Buffy turning it around on Xander shows that Xander didn't see the problems of his relationship with Anya anymore than he assumed Buffy should of been able to see hers with Riley. Buffy rebounding with Riley is a common thing to do with humans. Xander didn't and wouldn't have saved the Riley/Buffy relationship. He waited nine weeks to say something, and even then it was only when things were unsavable. Buffy said something as a result of Xander attacking her and might have saved the Xander/Anya relationship by saying Xander was using Anya as a convenience. Xander also states in other episodes indirectly that being the only guy his age in a mostly group of females is hard. He didn't want to be the only other male figure his age in the group. That combined with identifying with Riley made what he said to Buffy wrong. But there is nothing wrong with Buffy dating Riley as a rebound (despite initially arguing against dating him to begin with because she had genuine concerns about dating Riley). Xander starts their alley conversation high and mighty and then convinces her she needs to choose to run after him. But I think he actually lays out why they needed to end it more than give her a reason to chase the helicopter. So when Buffy runs after Riley, it is Xander unintentionally choosing for her because he identifies with Riley. Xander attempted to talk to Riley a few times indirectly, but if he were as worried and aware about the relationship as he claims in that alley, he would have talked to Buffy as well, especially as he put a lot of blame on her for not loving Riley (which for a rebound is what is practically expected of that type of relationship - just a casual and/or fun time with few strings).
Good breakdown, though I think you meant the episode 'Out of My Mind' rather than 'Out of Sight, Out of Mind' (w Darcie, the invisible girl). I feel a lot of Riley's problem is that he is emotionally adrift after having been a 'yes' man to Mother for so long and losing that grounding. Feeling insecure and serving up ultimatums is not forgivable but understandable given his emotional underdevelopment. Xander relating to Riley afa buffy goes is something i'd never considered before. It makes sense, though I think that his commitment to Anya is now genuine and so he might also regard his current situation as a parallel to Briley and what can happen if you don't demonstrate that commitment.
@@dayceem I typed all this out, then youtube told me I had an error and it wouldn't upload. So, I re-typed and typed the S1 episode title instead. It's one of my regular oops's anyway, but after being frustrated it wouldn't upload... even more so of an opps than usual.
I so agree with what you said ! From that first time he called Buffy "stupid", and "self-involved"... I was done with him. And after that, "I'm so in love with you I can't think straight" or the ultimatum... I cannot like the character because that kind of things are a no go for me. No matter what. Buffy has her flaws, yes. But that does not make any of what he did or said right. I have nothing against Mark Blucas. I actually love his acting and I was so sorry to learn what some "fans" put him through. Nonetheless, I still don't like the character XD Never did, never will ahah
I really appreciate this long breakdown of Riley as a character. So many great points. I think so many people forget about the early moments in season 4: Doomed specifically, where he pushes her to date when she’s not ready.
Buffy never loved Riley, he just happened to be the only decent man to give her attention when she was going through a tough time dating when she tried it with Parker etc. after her heartbreak with Angel.
I always tell people who watch this episode to understand that this show is called ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’. This means the show is largely in favour of Buffy and her perspective. Which further means we see through her eyes the most. Any objective or external outlook as to what goes on in the episodes (I.e. Xander’s outlook) will be pushed aside and maybe even viewed as emotionally hostile because his outlook is not Buffy’s. Does this mean that he is in the right in this episode? No. But it also means that he is not necessarily in the wrong either. This is just his outlook. An outlook of which is not obvious to the fandom because it’s not Buffy’s.
I actually don’t HATE Riley. I even liked Riley in season 4 (outside of some… mildly sexist comments) which I think puts me in the minority. I have issues with how he acts in season 5 for SO many reasons though, and it makes it difficult for me to like Riley pretty much as soon as season 5 starts. 1. He states that “Buffy is not in love” with him. He states it like a fact, not like a question, yet he CHOOSES to continue to date her. He doesn’t have a conversation with her about the way he feels, he just gets mad at her for not behaving in the way he wants her to even though, in his mind, she is not in love with him and everything she does simply solidifies that. (I think Buffy does love Riley, but that’s not even important to this conversation, honestly.) 2. Riley starts cheating on Buffy (emotionally, if you choose to acknowledge nothing else about those scenes) with vampires WHILE Buffy is dealing with the emotional crisis of her mom being sick/in the hospital. Literally, the same episode Joyce is in the hospital, Riley starts cheating. 3. Riley tries to push the blame of the situation onto Buffy as if Buffy had any idea Riley felt this way. (We’re not even going to touch on Xander or the ultimatum, even though that “Everyone knows you and Riley are imploding” comment is BS, since Riley told Xander about it.) Buffy being emotionally unavailable, distant, etc. Buffy has shown that she’s willing to risk life and limb, against unreasonable odds, to save Riley’s life. Is it the same kind of love she felt for Angel? No, I assume not. Is that a reasonable expectation to put on anyone? No, absolutely not. Every relationship is different. I feel like Riley made Buffy his whole identity. It used to be the Initiative, and when he lost that, he lost his identity, so he latched on to Buffy. So when BUFFY didn’t make HIM her whole identity (she still had friends, a job, a family, etc) he kind of fell apart. She was the most important part of his world, but he wasn’t hers.
You have no idea how annoyed Xander's speech made me this episode. I get that they're trying to make him have more substance but talking down to Buffy about her relationship is actual BS, considering his relationship with Anya isn't even that stable like who are you to talk
My issue with this Riley story is that it's basically character assassination with the agenda of wanting to remove a character from a show in an expedient way. I dont think her and Riley would have lasted but i think the break down would have been a bit more normalised, however, to get there quicker they did the vampire/drug turn. I think it honestly would have been better for him to have just cheated with someone - you don't see it on screen, but it happens and then there's the fallout from it and Buffy pushing him away. I do think Buffy loves him, but wasn't in love with him. He was what she needed at the time in season 4, she needed a good guy, but that doesnt work in the Buffy world. As far as Xander speaking with Buffy, he's seen and heard from Riley the issues he and they have been having so he's able to look at it from an external pov. He knows Buffy very well as well and I think he knows that if she just let Riley go she would regret it and that's why he confronts her to get her to realise the urgency of the situation. On another note, some fans always harp on saying that Xander's always trying to get with Buffy because he still fancies her through the series... if that was true (which its not at all, evidenced in Restless where their relationship is very clearly transtioned from crush to brother/sister) he would not be Buffy and Riley's biggest fanboy. 😅
Im honestly surprised to see how many fans aren't harping on this episode the way I expected - and Im in agreement. MANY people HATE Xander this episode, whereas I consider it one of his best moments. I dont think he's "defending" Riley he's not sitting there telling her what to do. He's pushing her to make a decision because she's in a state of ambivalence- its very much aligned with the philosophy of the show about making choices that appear again and again in existentialism and motivational interviewing.
The first time I watched this episode the Xander speech got me right in the feels. And in many ways I doubt Buffy would have ever tried to get to Riley without Xander giving that specific speech. Which admittedly on the first few watches made me a little teary-eyed, especially since we as an audience, got to see Riley open up to Xander about his feelings. But Riley letting those vamps nibble on his bits was CHEATING. And when Buffy and Riley finally talk he didn't even apologize to Buffy for it. He made excuses, justifications for his actions and in the end asked for her to HIT him. So while I do understand your point of Xander pushing Buffy to make a choice, it's also perfectly understandable for her in this situation to not be ready to. I love Xander but I do very much dislike him at times. And given his behavior I'm gonna say its at times more than justified. This episode for me is one of those times. Xander already knew what Riley felt and the one time he brings it up is in front of the entire group in away that everyone mistakes it for being about him. He never pulls Buffy aside and has a conversation about it. Instead after Buffy and Riley are on the outs he shows up and blames her for not seeing it coming and lies to her saying that no one told him anything. This is his best friend. Passion of the Nerd has an excellent breakdown of this episode which probably can summarize why people are mad at Xander a lot better than I can in my current sleep deprived state. So if you love Buffy and haven't seen it yet I highly suggest giving in a watch.
Yeah, I've noticed some comments saying that Xander doesn't "get" Buffy, and I think that's true: he didn't realize everything that was going on between Riley and Buffy, and his view of the relationship was less clear than what we the audience know. At the same time, his speech was heartfelt and true and contained a lot of good advice like you said about making a decision, as difficult as it might be. I was more surprised at Buffy's response to Xander's speech (sprinting to the helicopter like a rom com heroine) than by what Xander said, which I think was honest advice from a good friend
@@Kat15342 I have seen it, it's just one of the few times I don't agree with Ian 🤷♀️ IMO there is no right or wrong in how Xander handle it. I mean, really, it was Riley's responsibility to talk to Buffy about his feelings, Xander was just triangulated into it. And I never read that scene as him lying to her. I always took it as no one told him about the recent event of the episode, that they were tension. Yes, Riley said what he said in the season 5 opener, but halfway in, it probably starts to look like it was just a rough patch from his perspective. I guess it can be read either way, but in the end (unlike season 2 finally) it doesnt change anything had he mentioned his convo with Riley. It's not like he deliberated held the information because he wanted them to break up, he has been very vocal about likely Riley. Again, it's not an easy place for him to be in. The old Xander I'm sure would have been more likely to gossip and meddle, but by staying out of it until it became a bit more public I feel was more mature of him and respectful to both of them. But, I respect you and others feel the way you do.
@samanthas8340 I don't fully agree with TPN, but I do think he captures the majority of why some of us get mad at Xander. I can acknowledge that Xander knowing what Riley told him, puts him in a tough spot. But the way Xander approaches her after she hides from him just rubs me wrong. He confronts her. Add the bit about her not being able to see what was happening, and it gives me "kick his ass" vibes from season 2. But don't get me wrong, I totally see your pov and enjoyed being able to think about it from the other side. So it's all 💖. And it's honestly got me wondering if my opinion might change again as I get older.
I should really check that,because I trust you're right,but I'd like to have an ultimate proof because I remember Riley blaming Buffy for not loving him and Buffy getting mad and be like: "How can you say that I don't love you?!>:"-O"and if you're right and if I was Riley I would be like:"You haven't told me _once_ since we know each other!!>:-/"Not saying that you _need_ to declare your love out loud(actions speak louder than words and blah blah blah),but Buffy _did_ say"I love you to Angel",I'm sure,and I think multiple times(again,I should check to be sure)so it's not just that she's not the type of person who would say that out loud,for whatever reason linked to her personality or trust issues or whatever,she just never said that _to Riley._ And I think that says something.Sometimes even non-words speak louder than words!;-P
After the trauma she went through after saying it last time, it's understandable. She did say it to Angel in LA though. That she loves Riley and trusts him.I think she cares about him and she gave him all that she was able to give at the time, wasn't enough for Reily. Also, saying I love iyou s special for Buffy and she doesn't just throw it around.
@@natalijaarbutina8265 that’s understandable as well as Riley being dissatisfied with that. He had a feeling that she wasn’t over angel and wasn’t ready to open herself up to someone and yet she denied it in order to keep him around. That wasn’t fair.
I think Riley&Buffy were never right for each other since the beginning...I don't blame Riley;I never liked him,but I never hated him either. He's in the middle.😶But he's a good guy.💚Just not the right one for Buffy.
@@miaamer7718 1)Buffy has been toxic too in several occasione. 2)SPOILER After all you've said I *DEEPLY HOPE* you're not a Spuffy shipper!>:-[ Because if you consider Riley and _Angel_ (not Angelus,ANGEL!)to be toxic,you *CAN'T* tell me the right guy for Buffy is Spike! I just hope you wish her to be single or to find some better guy we never met in the show.
I don’t know why anyone doesn’t like this one. It’s really just like that friends episode: “The one where Chandler feels ignored by Monica so he shares dirty needles with a whore in a crack den then flies away to join the military in a helicopter”.
It just feels like the episode is telling us through Xander explicitly and through the choice of music during her running that it's Buffy's fault because she didn't recognize and appreciate Riley. Xander doesn't care that Riley got sucked off by vamps (or he doesn't know) and Riley gets writtdn out of the show quickly and not in a great way. They were great together in season 4 and in season 5 she suddenly doesn't love him. For me personally it felt forced and not very organic progression of their arc.
I don't feel that way. I believe the episode is leaving things up to the viewer to decide, and also is leaning heavily into Riley isn't the one she needed at the time.
I've never hated xander more than in that moment. He had months of knowing, of processing what Riley told him. He kept it to himself, only to throw it in buffy's face the second he could, when her world was falling to pieces and then him pretending he's the f*cking hero. He's not. If the man my best friend was in a long term relationship had said that to me I would have told my best friend almost immediately! They both disrespected buffy so hard by denying her the insight into his feelings about his relationship with her. Her world was falling apart while she had to save it on the regular, she didn't have time to coddle Riley. Yes he went through massive trauma, but he wasn't accepting help. She tried over and over again. You can't help someone who won't let you. Something he felt fine complaining about with her, but it was totally okay for him to do. Wtf Riley?! The writers just destroyed riley's character this season. And f*cking xander can get out of here with his last minute speech. It's MONTHS too late my dude! "I'm xander. I see all." Pfft. 🙄
"They both disrespected Buffy so hard by denying her the insight into his feelings about his relationship with her." I must say I'm not surprised,though...if you think about _some future episodes_ you should know Xander _does_ have this kind of flaw of not discussing problems when he should...;-/ "You can't help someone who won't let you."You can say the same about Buffy,though.Riley tried numerous times to understand what she was going through and to help/support her,but she pretty much always cut him out because it was all"Slayer stuff"and so he eventually gave up and went to look someone else to establish some kind of bond with(the vampire ladies). ["I'm Xander. I see all." Pfft. 🙄] _See_ is not the same as _tell_ though. You can _see_ a lot of stuff,but if you keep them to yourself you won't be of great use,buddy...;-/
Yes girls. Life lesson time. If during difficult times for you, (yes you are right her mother is very sick) your man is telling you that you don't pay enough attention to him and behind your back he goes to have 'some other company' and after you learned it and confronted him he implies that it's your fault and threatens you that he will leave you if you don’t prove your love for him like right the f/ck now, somehow. You have to run after him like crazy because how can you miss such a gift. Because, pay attention my dear, you won’t have anything better than this. Ever. That's what plot teaches you here. And let's give this a round of applause.
It's not as simple as that. Before he met Buffy, Riley had a complete life ahead of him. A lifetime of service in the military, unique work that was both unusual & exciting, a boss he looked up to, friends and colleagues in the initiative. It's not her fault obviously but after he met her he lost everything and simply became Buffy's boyfriend. The initiative was shut down, he found out his work wasn't that unique, got discharged out of the military. He even lost the somewhat superhuman strength he was given with. Add to that the (i think mistaken) belief that Buffy likes him but doesn't love him and the realisation she doesn't need him (much if any ) for protection, it's easy to imagine how a previously highly driven &even confident man can get depressed & be left with the feeling of needing 'something more'. And no, I don't know what you watched but Buffy's mom eventually does pulls through after a couple of health scares including the final medical issue with her where it took a couple of average EMTs to 'bring her back' to life from what turned out to be a non supernatural medical issue.
What about reversed genders? Because this is FAR more common the other way around, and I can point to almost endless examples of women complaining about their partners or filing for divorce because of emotional distance, lack of communication, emotional unavailability etc. Riley isn't in the right. But Buffy also hasn't been treating him right.
It's not necessarily about attention. As her partner, Riley wanted Buffy to emotionally be messy and involve him in her sadness and emotional turmoil. He felt she was not letting him in before and after Joyce's situation. Like, don't make me defend Riley and what he does in this episode (making it look like it is only Buffy's fault) but I too would feel like I am not special for my partner if he was not opening up to me, crying with me etc. Like, if there was one person I'd love to share my deep emotions, private emotions, it would have to be my partner. If I cannot do that with them, then what is even the point. So, that's what Riley was expecting, and maybe Buffy isn't necessarily that type of person, but I also feel like she would have allowed Angel in a lot more than she does Riley.
And no, Xander is a POS trying to make excuses for Riley and attacking Buffy because he's still in his incel mode. Always got to punish the girl who got away.
It’s fascinating watching this again as an adult having watched it obsessively when it came out. This time around I dislike xander - increasingly as the seasons progress, think Riley is more understandable, still dislike Joyce (reminds me of an aunt) really sympathise with buffy when I didn’t understand her before , still adore spike and Tara, I m a bit scared of angel now when before I thought he was a good guy, get more annoyed at Giles than before though he has good points, and I now hate willow right from the beginning and struggle to see good points even though I can see early willow is quite funny. By season two she’s pretty much worn out her welcome with me and I just see all the traits I don’t like having their foundations laid….which is probably excellent writing, but isn’t very enjoyable . Being a grown up is weird.
I don't hate Riley but I do HATE this episode.... I believe Buffy really loved Riley but it was a more mature, healthy relationship in contrast with Bangel that was a teenage relationship, intense and dramatic even a little toxic, a "I would die for you" kind of love, which let's face it, only "works" in the movies. Buffy is her own person, and is not interested in being rescued because she doesn't NEED to, and I can't help but feel that Riley could never make peace with that. His expectations of their relationship were different, with much more dependency. Buffy was Riley's whole world (which is never good) and he was expecting to be the same for her but she has SO many other things to take care of than just her boyfriend. And there's nothing wrong with that!!!! In the end I hate that even if she did everything right and everything she *could* do, she's still left like the one in the wrong, like everything got screwed up because of her. When he's the one that cheated, gave her an ultimatum and gaslighted her into thinking it was her fault that he was "pushed" to do what he did because he felt neglected by her world saving girlfriend who is scared to death that is going to lose her mom, has to fight the strongest enemy in her life so far and try to keep up with college and a vampire infestation in her town. Like COME ON RAILEY!! The world doesn't end if you are not your girlfriend's priority for once!!!
Buffy dodged a bullet with this one, tbh. I cant say I hate Riley bc the man is too bland to evoke such a powerful emotion, but I sure as hell ain't sad to see him go. Riley had red flags from the start, people just chose to ignore them (like calling her self-centered when she didn’t wanna date him bc she was still healing from her previous relationship, being super weird abt buffy being stronger than him ALWAYS like... my dude why do you HAVE to know you can take down your girlfriend? Thats weird. Weirdo behavior.)
This episode makes me hate Riley. I don't care how much Buffy was "ignoring" him or being distant while her mom was going through major brain surgery, her sister turns out to be hunted by the big bad and isn't even her sister - she goes through all that and Riley's response is to whine about how he's being ignored, give her an ultimatum after it's revealed he cheated on her?! No, fuck that. Good riddance.
Yeah, I would love my partner to completely shut me out while their parents are in peril. I'd rather them to turn to randoms and whatnot. Because who am I to my partner?! Right?!
He doen's know about the sister thing. The ultimatum wasn't exactly planned. All of his actions are very understandable. So I'd say hating him is a pretty strong reaction.
@@TheRealGSmith I mean, I can hate him if I want, it's just a TV show. I had thought she tell him about the sister, Giles knew at least. I still don't agree his actions are understandable, he could have tried talking to her about it rather than sneaking out to hire essentially prostitutes.
@@zenithquasar9623 I'd love it if my partner made my mom's life threatening illness all about them and our relationship. Sometimes you should just BE THERE for someone you care about.
Angel will always be Buffy’s one true love. Who even is Riley? Spike is honorary side piece. On a serious note, I feel like Riley didn’t face any real consequences for his actions. He literally just dipped. He waited for like 5 sec.😂😂 like come Joss
I remember watching this when it aired, and virtually every person I knew either did not care at all, or actively celebrated Riley leaving. I was/am a diehard Bangel shipper who slightly shipped Spuffy for a short while (until the show shot that to hell). I don't know a single person who shipped Buffy and Riley or even remained invested in Riley as a character. No shade to Marc Blucas.
Buffy loves Riley. Buffy does not need Riley. Buffy thinks it is being physically stronger. But it is because she is emotionally stronger. Some men need to “save” women. She is better off without him. Eventually he would need to find other ways to degrade her in order to feel superior. He might attack her intellect, her body image, her lack of income earning, even her housekeeping. Anything to make himself feel better. Goodbye Riley.
Xander gave buffy the harsh truth. Which was needed. Buffy treated riley just like a rebound, like xander said. He was giving her a wake up call. I thought that was obvious xander did nothing wrong. And riley never deserved the hate he got. Buffy pushed him away. She ismt without fault either.
My least favorite Xander moment (almost, but not quite for the entire series) was his speech. It is worse than "the big lie". As a character, he is not qualified to make his speech about whether Reilly is "The one" for Buffy. Others often disagree with this sentiment, based on previous comments to other reactors. But Xander had NO right to try to redirect Buffy re: Reilly.
I hate Xander in this episode. I'm glad at the end he told Anya he loves her because the rest of the episode he was incredibly patronising and disrespectful towards her. I don't hate Riley but it's pretty clear that he just couldn't handle the fact that Buffy didn't need him to protect her. He needs some time to grow up.
09:00 - 09:06 *IF ONLY!!!* 09:06 - 09:07 Great question!!!X-O 09:23 - 09:28 I don't think she needs a _monster_ but she can't be with a _human._ She's too strong,constantly in danger and among monsters,she needs someone who can be at her same level. You know...like Angel!🖤...If it wasn't for the tiny little detail about the curse and him being immortal while she's not. ;-( 09:29 - 09:32 That guy's Plot Armor is way too thick.😒💢 I hate that.😡💢
Food for thought: Buffy CONTINUALLY undermines and emasculates Riley. Sure, she has justification when she's angry during their argument... but she's done it all season. If the genders were reversed, I don't think ANYONE would hate Buffy. If her bf had ignored, undermines and belittled her continually. Had confided in other women. Had excluded her from important facets of his life... I don't think people would be so mad at her reacting poorly. Riley IS in the wrong for his actions. But Buffy is NOT blameless for how she has treated him. And his ultimatum is not wrong. He asked her for a reason to stay. Nothing more. He didn't ask for forgiveness. He didn't ask for unconditional love. He didn't ask her not to be angry. He JUST asked her for a reason he should stay. Anyone who thinks that is unfair is just... an INCREDIBLY shitty person to be in a relationship. Does Riley not get a choice? Must he just ACCEPT the way he is treated. Put up with it. Does his consent not matter? Literally EVERY viewer can see that his observations are correct. So what else is he supposed to do? Allow Buffy to continue to use him while making him miserable? Allow himself to be treated as inferior, then castigated when he's uncomfortable with this? Naw. Riley might be wrong, but Buffy is MORE wrong. And that is okay. Part of what makes her an amazing character is she can be flawed. She's not perfect. She hurts people she loves. She makes mistakes. And she's STILL a good person, trying her best. And that is important. Xanders speech was perfect imo. Not judgmental. He's willing to support whatever Buffy chooses, but wants HER to understand that it IS her choice. He has a bias (of course) but it is perfectly in keeping with his character and he is not pushing. I do NOT understand how people hate that speech. We the viewers don't AGREE with his position, bc it is VERY clear to us that Riley is correct and they should both move on. But it is internally consistent and reasonable.
And can I just add this, even though it makes me sound like a terrible person even in my own head, but the obvious solution was for Riley to dump Buffy when he knew she couldn't meet his needs, but you can't leave your spouse while her mother's sick, it would just make you the shittiest person ever. Riley obviously wanted to have a conversation with and/or end it with Buffy the entire time right from the 4th or 5th episode, but he couldn't make it about himself and/or leave Buffy while her mom was so sick; the timing was never right. Which is why this blow-up needed to happen right after her mom got well. No-one can blame Buffy for being occupied with her mom, but I can't blame Riley for feeling all the effects of it either. People hate Riley because they think he's making all about himself while Buffy is going through so much, but really, we only feel that because the viewers are shown what Riley's going through and his resulting self-destructive behaviour, but when he's with Buffy he really is putting her first. It's just that some people dont like Riley as Buffy's boyfriend or think he's not an interesting enough character, they couldn't care less about his pain and care very much about Buffy, so they hate that his drinking and blood-sucking is taking screen time away from the Buffy, and they think that means he is too self-involved. But seriously, when he is not helping Buffy or when she has sent him away like a fucking postcard, what else is he supposed to do but wallow in his misery? Does it make someone selfish to still be aware of their own pain when someone else is in a lot more pain, especially if there's a constant reminder of that pain? I think it just makes you human. Riley could have communicated better, but come on, a relationship isn't a transaction or a business meeting, Buffy could also have just seen that he was really hurting, it was on his face the entire time. That's all Riley wanted, for Buffy to see him. In his head, if he had to speak out his pain and ask for love, it would defeat the entire purpose, coz he didn't want Buffy to repeat her assurances from episode 4, he wanted her to SEE him. I know it was stupid, but that's just how feelings work sometimes, I can understand this, even if I don't agree with it.
Well said. It's part of why Whedon shows are so good. Loath him or not, the man assembled amazing teams of talent and delivered complex characters whose choices make sense even when a viewer disagrees. And I personally think it's extremely rewarding when there are no easy answers and the lines are blurred. In this situation there ARE no bad guys. Just good people doing their best and failing each other. @@asthajindal5275
@@miaamer7718He didn't either undermine or belittle her. He did try to be pushy and clingy and make her feel bad for not thinking about him enough though, which was sometimes pretty shitty.
"they both acted poorly" is blind? Mate, a LOT of the Buffy fandom are just straight up hypocrites when it comes to gender issues. This one is a prime example. YOU might absolve Buffy completely (despite agreeing they should split up, I assume?) but I do not absolve Riley. He acted badly. Buffy has every right to be furious. And she shouldn't stay with him. But that doesn't mean she didn't do shit wrong. I think you need to hold a mirror up. @@miaamer7718
So yeah. I hate Riley. He was ok in season 4, when he was all super-soldier, but in this season he's just a whiny afterthought. Since the Initiative is done and super-soldier is a thing of the past I feel the writers just couldn't fit him in the narrative comfortably any more. He became the stereotypical macho dude, needing constant reassurance that he is relevant and important in his woman's life, and getting all puppy dog face when he's not. He needs Buffy to need him and rely on him, but she doesn't. She's guarded because of past relationships. She's going thru a ton of personal shit with Joyce's illness, discovering her potential as the Slayer Supreme, and Dawn's very existence. She's keeping him starts length because she's trying to keep it together and stay strong and that's not going to happen if she goes all damsel just to stroke his ego. She treats him like the rebound guy because he is the rebound guy. He was filling a need and that's crappy of her and crappy for him, but there were never going to be little fat babies on an Iowa farm in their future. And I hate Xander in most every episode, but especially when he thinks he's all insightful and tries lecturing Buffy on life.
Are you only doing 1 episode a month? You do soluchh a great job. But the #BTVS audience wanting more. When it aired. There was atleast 1 new episode a week
![Chino Pacas - Modo Capone (with Drake & JOP) [Video Visualizador Oficial]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Zoc75M8Swhc/mqdefault.jpg)
Sooooo..... who hates Riley??
I don't get all the Riley hate honestly
During my first five watch throughs of this show I was 100% hating Riley. But as I have gotten older I see both sides are to blame in their own ways. But this episode never fails to make me dislike him a tiny bit more. But to be fair this episode also makes me dislike Xander a bit too.
@@jasonsaroyan in the beginning I think the majority of anti Riley feelings have to do with him not being Angel. At least for me when I first saw him. Afterwards Riley does have some cringey lines but really isn't that bad of a character but also doesn't fit with Buffy for the long run. I think Passion of the Nerd does a really good job of breaking down why many people feel this way towards Riley.
Top 10 character for me tbh
That would be me 😂
It all depends on your definition of “love.” I think Buffy loves Riley but I don’t think Riley is “the one.” Just because Riley doesn’t make her feel the same passion as Angel, doesn’t mean she can’t feel genuine romantic love for him… but I don’t think anyone sees him as husband material for her.
Agree. Good guy but not the one for Buffy.
I always thought she loved him as a friend, but was not *in love* with him, if that makes sense.
Regarding her love for him, I'm not sure. I think Buffy is also traumatized by what happened with Angel and to some extent Parker and doesn't exactly allow herself to lean on other people much. And I think they're both not great at communicating - Riley has his own demons to face and the need to have a purpose and be needed. And Buffy can't give him that.
So I think they're wrong for each other but maybe they just express love differently and neither feels heard or understood.
Yeah I agree. I think that, despite the mistakes made by both in the relationship, ultimately I don't they are compatible (due to personalities, love languages, personalities, etc)
Buffy loved Riley but wasn’t in love with him and he felt it. He was depressed and depression can cause poor decision making. I feel for him.
I think Buffy realized that she hadn’t put her whole heart into the relationship and didn’t want to give up on it because Riley was a good man. It wasn’t that she realized she loved him but that she realized he was worth loving and that she should really open herself up to that possibility.
YES
💯
I’m appreciating all the nuanced comments, pointing out Riley AND Buffy’s flaws. I feel terrible for them both.
I kinda understand Riley...He wasn't loved in the way he needed to be and sometimes thats okay as long as you dont pull some bullshit ultimatium lol this episode was unfortunately bound to happen. 💜
@@danniethedemon of course you know I never said you didn’t. Some people need to be loved differently some need daily affirmations and some don’t 🤷🏼♀️
yes every one is different. @@danniethedemon
Im more of a laid back person in a relationship I like my space but also like small gestures every once in awhile 💜@@danniethedemon
Yeah I ultimately think this was breakup inevitable...
Here's my thoughts on the "Does Buffy love Riley" question:
1) Buffy's relationship with Angel was all-consuming. It was a deep intense love, unquestionably so.
2) There's no way to recapture that kind of relationship in the exact same way. Buffy was never going to have the same kind of love for Riley.
3) Despite that, I do think that Buffy loved Riley, just in a different way. Like in the way that you have a more mature love versus the intense passion of a first love, I think Buffy loved Riley for the ways he wasn't Angel. Angel may have been Buffy's equal in supernatural abilities, but Riley brought a stability that Buffy needed, one that she can never have with Angel because he's a cursed vampire and they're doomed to have to keep a certain kind of distance from one another always.
4) Even though I do believe Buffy loved Riley, I also think she may have under-appreciated his reliability and steadfast love of her. I think she allowed the comfort and safety she felt with him to lull her into trusting that he'd always be there, and as such, she stopped paying as much attention to him as she used to. (Not unlike you see with couples where one stops noticing the other, so the other seeks out a cheating relationship to fulfill what they're not getting at home. Which is what we saw happen with Riley. Of course, he didn't communicate that to her, so that part's on him. You can't be mad at someone and expect them to read your mind.)
5) Although I feel that Buffy stopped paying attention to Riley, some of that behavior I feel is completely warranted. If you think about it, she has had a LOT going on this season. The appearance of Dawn, finding out who Dawn really is (and how she needs to hide and protect her), all of that is a gigantic burden on Buffy's shoulders. Add to that Glory, who is so powerful she can kick Buffy's ass, and that they don't know how to defeat her... that's another gigantic weight on Buffy's shoulders. And THEN her mom gets sick, which is a huge worry. And Buffy needs to step up and take care of her sister and help her mom get answers and take care of her mom... again, a huge emotional weight that can be very draining. On top of all that, she had an enormously intense experience at the end of season 4, when she combined her powers with Giles, Willow and Xander, and then had that dream connecting her with the original Slayer, which stirred a concern and questioning about her own powers, the depth of what it means to be a Slayer, what her true purpose is... major existential stuff.
So she's had physical challenge (getting her ass kicked), emotional challenge (Dawn and Joyce), and mental challenge (seeking her true path in life), none of which is small potatoes, so to speak. That's an enormous load on Buffy's mind and shoulders. One could say she's got enough on her plate without also having to balance out Riley's feelings. Of course as his girlfriend it's important to be there for him as well, but... in a time when she's got SO MUCH riding on her, the last thing she needs is to have to worry about Riley too. For him to be all whiny about her not loving him or needing him enough, and seeking out vampire dens in retribution, that's the last thing Buffy needs to deal with. I don't doubt that they would have had stuff to work through eventually, but now was not the time for him to add to her struggles. And for him to give her an ultimatum, to make a decision practically five minutes after she found out about his infidelity? That's so wrong. I'm with Nick on that one -- there's no way anyone would be able to process their anger and feelings of betrayal and confusion and hurt in less than a day, and for what? To have to "immediately decide" you want to keep a relationship when you haven't had time to even think about if you want to keep it after what you just found out? Riley's ridiculous in that sense and it always ticked me off that he wanted her to prove her love to him in that moment, after she just found out he'd been cheating on her. I'd be like, hell no, YOU have some proving to do at this point. Because how can I ever trust you again?
It's a tough storyline, and as Nick pointed out, it had a bummer of an ending. But I suppose it was probably always meant to end someday. They had some nice compatibility and were perhaps what each needed from each other for a time, but nothing will ever be the same as the intense connection Buffy had with Angel.
"Angel may have been Buffy's equal in supernatural abilities"Which is ultimately the reason why Buffy could never have a regular human as a boyfriend. She _needs_ someone who is her"equal"in terms of superpowers and supernatural responsabilities,otherwise he would never be able to truly understand her(and possibly be constantly jealous/envious of her,at least a little bit)and it's highly probable he won't be able to help her/support her during her daily fight. It's the classical"superhero girlfriend problem"...only here Buffy is the superhero and Riley is the girlfriend!;-P
"he's a cursed vampire and they're doomed to have to keep a certain kind of distance from one another always."Also he's immortal and she's not.Even without the curse they are still doomed if they don't find a solution to _that_ problem.
"You can't be mad at someone and expect them to read your mind."And yet Buffy expected pretty much that when Riley met Faith in her body!>;-( If the roles were reversed,I don't think _she_ would have recognized _him._ She simply doesn't know him enough.
Every single thing you said in point N°5 is 100% true,but the question is...how many of these things does Buffy discuss with Riley?If the answer is not"none"I think we're still close enough...as you said,you can't expect someone to read your mind...it was easy to see that Buffy was worried and stressed about her mom,but all those other things were mostly"Slayer stuff"that she always keeps Riley away from...I can't blame him for feeling excluded...she DOES exclude him from her life!Constantly!She's basically making with him the same mistake the Scoobies made with Faith:not making her feel welcome and really"one of them"(people keep pointing out how Riley is absent during the:"We're family."scene like it's not a bad thing.💔)...and how did that end?That Faith went to seek love and approval to someone else AKA the Mayor and Riley did exactly the same with the vampire ladies at one point.
The point is not much that Buffy _should_ include Riley,the point is _if she doesn't feel the NEED to do it_ maybe _that's_ the sign he's not the right guy.Because I'm pretty sure she _would_ have talked to Angel about Dawn and Glory and the First Slayer etc. if they were still together,even only to see if he could have or find some useful informations,since he knows the supernatural world(while Riley does not),which again brings me to my point N°1:Buffy needs a super-human boyfriend to match with her own super-humanity.U _____ U
"And for him to give her an ultimatum, to make a decision practically five minutes after she found out about his infidelity? That's so wrong." I agree. I think that was the result of Riley's feelings boiling for a long time and finally exploding. It's the problem you're likely to have when you lack communication...you keep a lot of issues to yourself and then they come out all together during the 1st big fight/at the worst possible time.(Makes me think of _another_ couple,but I can't say more to avoid SPOILERS...;-P🎵)
"It's a tough storyline and, as Nick pointed out, it had a bummer of an ending. But I suppose it was probably always meant to end someday. They had some nice compatibility and were perhaps what each needed from each other for a time, but nothing will ever be the same as the intense connection Buffy had with Angel." *SO TRUE.* 💛🖤 I think Buffy&Riley were never _right_ for each other,Riley was just _convenient_ for Buffy because it's not the 1st time she tries to have"a normal boyfriend"(she even SAID that that's what Riley was supposed to be at one point)to delude herself she can have a normal life/relationship despite being the Slayer and Riley...I think he simply had a big crush. He never _truly_ understood Buffy as a person (not that she made it easy for him),he just superficially liked her,but they were just not compatible for many reasons...their personalities,their experiences on life,their view of the world, their attitude with figures of authority...
2 is sad. Excellent comment, Riley was correct in thinking Buffy should've come to him with all the stress going on in her life, but they're both bad at communicating, and that shouldn't have been a breaking point of their relationship. Most of the humdrum of their relationship was for the viewers, though, if you look at the what literally happened they actually had a fun time together. He wasn't the best boyfriend she _could_ have, but it wouldn't have been the worst thing for them both if they had stayed together.
@@alicequinn505 Now that I think about it, I shouldn't be surprised at their troubles with communicating. It's kind of been that way since the very beginning. 🙂 The whole thing about the Hush episode was all the ways people struggle to communicate when they literally can't talk (and how much we struggle to communicate with one another even when we CAN talk, lol), and ended with Riley and Buffy finding out something huge about each other but sitting there facing one another, still unable to find words even after they got their voices back. 😄 You're totally right about how bad they are at communicating. It's never been an easy thing for them.
The reason why Spike, Druscilla, Darla and Angelus have more human emotions and qualities than other vampires is because they’re significant vampires. They have more screen-time so they have to be interesting than just your one-note “I need to kill and feed” vampire. They have to have characterization that resonates with the audience otherwise there’s no point to watching them.
If Buffy spent any time with the vampires she kills on sight, she’d likely figure the same out. That they’re not just mindless monsters to murder. Still evil and soulless but have complex emotions just like she does. If the show went that way… delving into what makes a monster… I mean. And whether she should just be staking them as soon as they rise from the grave without no thought for whether they might actually be able to choose. Might have free will.
Harmony is also another significant vampire but not as significant as Spike, Dru, Darla and Angelus. But even she shows human emotions and qualities that are interesting about her. That show that she’s not just a monster who needs to kill and feed and that’s it. She has other interests. A lot admittingly selfish and vain but they were when she was human so…
I don’t think it has anything to do with being sired from any special vampire bloodline or anything like that. I just think that Buffy and the Gang slay and ask questions later. And perhaps they’re wrong for that, you know? And maybe they should be taken to task on that. Maybe that should be a storyline. That they’re killing conscious beings that might actually possess the capability and capacity to be good even if they are soulless, even if they are a vampire/demon. It’s possible given what we have with Spike, Dru, Darla and Angelus. They can’t be the only ones that carry human emotions and qualities. It’s not out of the realm of possibility that other vampires can.
What provokes more discussion than the Buffy-Riley relationship? I think the writers are having a quiet laugh as we endlessly analyze Buffy and Riley endlessly analyzing!
No need to hate Riley. We knew all along he wasn’t right for our girl. Besides they’re both so young anyway.
Yeah I definitely do not hate him. He's human (not to mention young like you said) and like most of the characters in Buffy he makes mistakes. That's part of what I love about the show... the real flaws shown in most of the main characters
@@nickreacts6394 Exactly! That’s the essence of the entire show; Reality with a nice helping of supernatural high jinx. 🖤
"This was a downer of an episode..." Meanwhile After Show Reactions and others just out there celebrating, cracking open the champagne
I agree with you on Buffy not loving Riley (at least not the same way he loves her). Not sure if she actually realices it though. Buffy always has so much stuff on her plate and so many things to worry about that labelling him the guy who "will always be there" even if he's not being paid attention to, is just ... human.
Riley trying to justify "cheating" on her because he didn't feel "loved/desired" and Xander defending him is one of the worst choices in the entire show.
Riley didn't cheat on Buffy lol....
@@zenithquasar9623it's a form of cheating, and they are obviously alluding to it in that way
@@zenithquasar9623 I mean ... he pretty much did. I still think both him and Xander made very realistic choices though.
@@zenithquasar9623Riley sure wasn’t getting sucked on by a man. Just saying.
@@zenithquasar9623 He did. With multiple vampire ladies.
I agree with a lot of what you say and all of your reasoning. I just have a different conclusion: I love both Buffy and Riley, and they both made very human mistakes, Buffy was really kinda terrible to him since a long time in a very unaware self-righteous sort of way, and no-one can convince me that Riley wasn't justified in asking for a reason to stay, I really grieved and cried when Riley left the show, but I still think Riley is more wrong than Buffy, simply because of the cheating thing. I don't care that it was blood-sucking or whatever, cheating is way more than making out or having sex with some-one else.
And can I just add this, even though it makes me sound like a terrible person even in my own head, but just because your spouse has bigger family life and death stuff that has to come first, it doesn't automatically mean that all your relationship problems are suddenly over, it just means they get put on back-burner while you have even more stress and have even less time to deal with anything; I have accepted it as a reality of life despite how tasteful it's really not. Riley obviously wanted to have a conversation with and/or end it with Buffy the entire time right from the 4th or 5th episode, but he couldn't make it about himself and/or leave Buffy while her mom was so sick; the timing was never right. Which is why this blow-up needed to happen right after her mom got well. No-one can blame Buffy for being occupied with her mom, but I can't blame Riley for feeling all the effects of it either, it's just human, you can shelve your needs for some time while you are there for your partner (which, BTW, Riley was, big time), you can put someone before you, but you can't put someone instead of you. Riley could have communicated better, but come on, a relationship isn't a transaction or a business meeting, Buffy could also have just seen that he was really hurting, it was on his face the entire time. That's all Riley wanted, for Buffy to see him. In his head, if he had to speak out his pain and ask for love, it would defeat the entire purpose, coz he didn't want Buffy to repeat her assurances from episode 4, he wanted her to SEE him. I know it was stupid, but that's just how feelings work sometimes, I can understand this, even if I don't agree with it.
@@asthajindal5275 Also Buffy has time to tell all her other friends about her personal issues and deal with monsters, but notice how Riley was rarely even invited to Scooby meetings anymore. He had to learn about everything from Spike of all people. I can see why Riley felt unloved. The least she could've done was allowed him to come out with them for Scooby issues but she couldn't even do that.
@@asthajindal5275 I agree with everything you said and,I must say,this makes me even more angry with Buffy for blaming Riley for"cheating"on her with Faith.Girl...I don't think you would have recognized _him_ if you were in his same situation...you simply don't know him enough.X-/
@@NicamonI agree with that too. I think it's a case of main-characteritis that Buffy succumbs to from time to time. It's when Buffy acts way too self-righteous, or is shown as the wronged party, or shown as the offending party, in defiance of previous plot direction or character development or intention plausibility, simply to drive home a lesson the writers thought important enough to spell out.
@@asthajindal5275 What bothers me about when this happens is that I've seen the fandom fiercely taking Buffy's side even when she was (at least IMO) *clearely in the wrong* like in ep 7x19(it's not a SPOILER,I'm not saying anything specific...YOU know what I'm talking about).
"I told him to make plans with his friends" What friends?
I don't say this to defend Riley, but the way they wrote him they made Buffy his entire world.
True, I think Riley would have been much happier if he had more balance in his life even while he was dating Buffy
@@nickreacts6394unfortunately, all his social life was in the initiative and when that was gone, he clung to Buffy.
Riley's ultimatum was necessary. Why would he stay in Sunnydale if Buffy didn't love him? She's the only reason he's there. He'd truly have nothing if he lost both Buffy and his job. He made the right decision.
It's not really an ultimatum. He's actually being honest, for once. He's telling her what the two options for him are at the moment and leaving it up to her to make clear what she wants.
As I understand it, she actually DID love Riley. Hence why she turned around & ran to what turned out to be a meeting that never happened.
That outburst she had at Angel's was not Buffy shoving her new BF down his throat to make him feel jealous but what I now believe to be Buffy letting her guard down for once and letting out her true feelings about Riley.
Still she did treat him like the rebound guy and he never knew that she actually did love him.
why are you soo sure?
@@miaamer7718 Because she ignored every warning signs and even his betrayel & STILL chose to run after him. Sure, the relationship wasn't as magical as with Angels and sure it was never gonna last but she DID love him still.
Also what occurs in a later season points to deeper feelings being real, if not so immediate or passionate.@@zahrans
@@zahrans Sweetheart, did you ever stop to think that maybe,just maybe the reason she ran after him was because of all her abandonment issues.Not to mention, the guilt trip Xander gave her before hand, not that she actually loves him?
@@miaamer7718 What makes you so sure she didn't?
Sigh. I actually like how this season/episode handles the breakup.... right up until Xander mouths off about a situation he doesn't even understand (Buffy, girl, tell Xander that Riley cheated on you) and Buffy decides that she DOES want to make it work and runs after the helicopter.
I think Buffy loves Riley as much as she's able to right now. It's clearly not meeting Riley's needs, and that's fair. But he doesn't talk to her about it (he never once tells Buffy that it bothers him that she hasn't said the L-word back to him), he makes Buffy's mom's health crisis about *his* feelings of not being needed, AND THEN HE CHEATS ON HER.
I think it's a really interesting, nuanced, realistic look at a relationship falling apart, not because the two people don't care about each other, but because they're at different places, their lives are moving different directions, their wants and needs and goals don't match up any more. And then for some stupid reason, Xander convinces Buffy that she DOES want Riley after all. Honey, when he cheats on you instead of telling you he's feeling unloved, we gotta move on.
There was another reactor that said something about Xander's speech along the lines of, "that was a beautiful speech that I 100% disagree with." I feel like the writers were too insecure with having the relationship just fizzle out and felt like they needed a big melodramatic moment at the end. But fizzling out would have been more realistic. I would have preferred an ending scene that showed Riley flying off and Buffy joining her family to spend time with them--a visual sign that they are in different places with different priorities.
@@mradan2093 I agree with that 100%
I think this fails to recognise Buffy's issues with abandonment.
Buffy pined after Angel when they were on again off again (and never really got over him)
She lamented all the other failed relationships (even before Scott. Do you remember Scott?)
She pined after Parker even KNOWING he used her.
This is quite literally her pattern.
It's not COMFORTABLE, but it IS what she does.
And Xander isn't wrong at any point in his speech.
He's talking to his friend and asking her what she ACTUALLY wants. Sure, he's biased (much like Dawn, he has seen how good Riley has been for Buffy. And he hates vampires) but people *legitimately* feel angry that he asked her if she was really willing to let Riley go. And isn't clairvoyant.
@@DmGray That's fair! If I come across as annoyed, it's only at the writers, not any character. Xander is doing a great job of being a friend here.
Naw, I just often like to post counterpoints, bc I feel the fandom was VERY one sided for a VERY long time (as demonstrated in the comments section of this episode for basically every reactor :D)
I actually think the conversation has progressed a lot in recent years ^^
I love a good debate though, so even if heated words DO get exchanged, I got no hate in my heart.
I often despise Xander, tbh... BUT I feel I have to play devil's advocate quite a lot bc so many people hate him for trivial or shallow reasons.
I mean, so do I... but I'm mature enough to know this :P (he's clingy, jealous, insecure, hypocritical and insensitive. But he DOES mature through the seasons and he has virtues. He's brave, loyal and by the end of the show genuinely shows real empathy and some wisdom)
I'd compare the way he sometimes treats Anya to be VERY similar to the way Buffy treats Riley.
Now, I sympathise a great deal more with Buffy... but I see those parallels.
@@jjlonsdale5971
Riley is a difficult character to easily categorize and stamp. He is unlike any other male in Buffy's world and is motivated by a human standard of score keeping. Riley is most comfortable with other soldiers and guys doing guy things. He plays hoops, talks smack, and enjoys male bonding. Riley is the safe middle class guy that the non-slayer Buffy would want in her life. Xander's speech about the decency of Riley touches the pre slayer Buffy and he is a version of Ken to her Barbie. It sounds so measured and decent. What would Buffy not do what it takes to keep Riley? She evens runs to try and stop the helicopter and is convinced she needs to try and salvage their relationship. So wrong. Xander has never understood the inner being of Buffy or even Angel and Spike. Go back to Restless and Dracula and listen to Buffy being told several times that she does not know yet who she is and what her journey is about. Everyone tries to place Buffy in a cubbyhole they can understand and control. Riley gave Buffy some companionship and satisfied her sexual appetite, somewhat. But Riley never had a chance to be the partner to Buffy. Riley is a good solid soldier and order taker, but Buffy is becoming the greatest Slayer and the commanding general in the war against evil. Leadership is lonely and only Buffy can handle what has to be done to win the war. She is the chosen one, not Riley.
If you aren't yet, I highly recommend watching The Passion of the Nerd's analysis videos - especially the one about this episode starting at around minute 13 😅 explains the hate a bit.
Overall I think his flaws come down to immaturity, trauma and bad writing. Overall he's a great guy and means well but still has to find his place in the world that is not defined by a woman (Walsh, then Buffy).
Most fans often seem to confuse drama and hurt with love and passion and stability with boredom. I was one of them when I was younger lol
Those videos are generally amazing,but usually dark and full of spoilers...it's better to watch the whole show first,IMO. ;-P
"Most fans often seem to confuse drama and hurt with love and passion and stability with boredom." *COUGH* Spike! *COUGH!*
Doomed is the word. In the episode "Doomed" Buffy told Riley that if their relationship was "doomed".
I don't think that she was ready. All of her trauma from the ups & downs with Angel + the confidence shake up that was Parker. She wasn't ready for a relationship with anyone.
My question is: why did she change her mind? I didn't find Riley's argument convincing at all. Insults & the admission that he didn't know what she went through, but somehow knows what's best for her. Seriously?
❤🧡💛💚💙💜
14:04 Psychologically they say the best thing when you're leaving a tough situation is just to not look back. Looking back makes it harder. So I think he didn't see her because he was forcing himself to keep his eyes ahead. He does, after all, have psychological and military training
14:17 You have yet to Fathom what Josh Whedon will do to us
I'm confused by this comment. As a psychology major, I'd say about half of counseling modalities have to do with reflection, probably more - especially psychodynamic, which this show really focuses on.
@@samanthas8340 don't get me wrong. Reflection is important. After you have left. When you decide you need to leave, do you need to keep focused and keep yourself moving forward. Reflect when you are away from the situation
I hadn't thought about that, but I think you're exactly right for why Riley would be actively focused on not looking back, thank you!
@@reneeg9406 OK, I had to reread a few times but I understand now the point you were making. Riley is compartmentalizing his pain. I got confused by associating this to his psychology/military background. The initiative might have had a keep, moving forward and never look back approach but I wouldn't call that healthy.
@samanthas8340 It's not entirely healthy to keep looking back either. They say if you reflect too much on trauma it can make it worse. Thats why if you get hurt like in a military situation like Riley was trained in, you often have to get right back up, there's no time to pause and reflect, it can make it hurt worse.
Funny you kept saying their relationship was "Doomed" because that's exactly what she told him in "Doomed". I still don't think the writers did a good job of her 180 turn at the end of that episode when she just changed her mind to start dating him when her instincts told her " NO".
I know it irritates people, but it is a good reminder to not make a decision against an ultimatum because you hate ultimatums. Fight for what is worth fighting for despite how the choices presented to you.
Nah fuck that. You don’t give ME ultimatums when YOU were caught cheating just because it benefits you. Riley had no right to put that on her. That was his decision to make with what was presented to him. Not throw it to Buffy. He so called “knew” Buffy didn’t love him like he loved her and had every other reason, justified or not, to make his own decisions. You’re not gonna throw that particular aspect on Buffy
@@notyouraveragebear9326 totally understand that decision, but that isn’t what Xander’s speech is about. He asked her what she really wanted and not be blinded by how the decision was forced on her. If she really did not think the situation was worth fighting for, f**k that guy, but if she thought what they have could be something more - put the petty BS of the situation aside and make a decision based if she thought they could overcome it. Relationships are messy and I personally don’t think Riley was worth a second chance but she in the end did. Maybe this feels directed at me but I used to just shut down ultimatums regardless of what I wanted as I felt they other person was trying to manipulate me. As I grew up, I realized life will throw you curveballs and people are flawed communicators so I needed to make choices based on getting the best possible outcomes and not the semantics of the situation.
So monkey hockey movie is real. "MVP".
I feel like Buffy’s relationships with Angel vs Riley is spot on to the type of relationships women go through in life. Angel represents someone Buffy could never truly have. Whether that be due to rejection, time, space, emotional availability, etc. Riley represents the ”safe” guy - someone who will love her no matter what and she doesn’t need validation from. The differences in these scenarios is why some women never truly get over some men (aka Angel).
Sure, but the "no matter what" part didn't play out that way for Riley. At some point they always want more, and you have nothing to give them.
"low pay"
the military services have a proud tradition of complaining about the pay, but for better or worse it was never up for discussion. riley has his rank. the military has a payscale that dictates what his base pay is going to be at that rank, probably exactly the same as he was last paid in the initiative. riley will also receive, at a minimum, hazardous duty pay, and hopefully combat pay as well. if he's working in south america, there probably won't be a local cost-of-living bonus. there was no need to discuss any of this because it was never up for negotiation; the law says "this is what you are paid for this work".
I've always said Buffy loves Riley. It may not be the way she loved Angel, but she loves him. She just has a hard time saying the words. And the cheating with the blood suckers is why I liked Riley until I didn't. It's a hard thing to forgive and it hurts Buffy deeply and then he's just gone. No chance to work through it, nothing.
The best part of this episode, though, is Xander's speech to Anya. It is moment's like this where Xander shines. And Anya was totally on point the whole episode with her snark.
It's not about whether they loved each other. It's always easy to forget but remember Buffy is 21 right now and Riley is also mid 20s. It's easy to forget because of the actor's age. That's why Xander catches so much crap for the first three seasons because even though he's a teenager a full grown adult plays him.
Basically the tragedy here is that they're too young to make this relationship work because they don't know how to process their own trauma in healthy ways. Buffy shuts people down because she truly believes she's better than everyone and that she's alone and Riley needs external validation to feel important and loved which is what he lost when the initiative went away and what the vampires were able to give him. It's actually pretty sad because as Xander pointed out and Buffy admitted, Riley was the most healthy of her relationships in the show(I'm an Angel fan, but he's 220 years older than her and severely limits her lifestyle) and she did love him. It could have worked. But as is often the case in your 20s, you're not ready for the good relationships yet because you're still growing.
Buffy definitely did *not* love Riley. And she didn't trust him enough to tell him about Dawn, because of his history with The Initiative. Riley feels she's keeping him on the outside and she is. She has a reason but he doesn't know that, so he thinks it's him. I think it could have been resolved if they had just talked about their relationship now and again, but they didn't. But yeah, she didn't love him. I think Riley was a good guy, but he wasn't right for Buffy. I'm one of the few who actually loved Riley and sympathized with him, I was kind of sad to see him go.
I completely agree
I sympathize with Riley too, and despite some of his big mistakes this season, I do feel bad for how things turned out this episode. I agree though, he just wasn't right for Buffy, even though he loved her
Didn’t they try and reach him and they couldn’t (presumably because he was getting bit by vampires)? For the meeting where they told everyone about Dawn, I mean? Or am I remembering that wrong?
Hey, at least Riley gets paid! Buffy gets nothing and she has literally saved the world multiple times.
I’m no Riley apologist but I am a Xander apologist and everybody has the weirdest and wildest takes on Xander’s position in the episode ‘Into The Woods’ that it honestly feels like people are emotionally projecting.
He was not forcing or coercing Buffy to go after Riley and say she was sorry for not being upfront with him about her feelings for him. He was asking and motivating her to make a choice of either one or the other. To either let him go or stop him from leaving. To get passed the hesitation and deliberation and finally make a move. Take action. And the reason why it works that it’s Xander that tells Buffy this is because this is something he always struggles with himself. Not just in love and with his relationship with Anya - which the narrative makes a connection to when Buffy brings her up in retaliation to Xander’s comment about her treating Riley like a “convenience” and then when he comes home to Anya to tell her that he loves her - but also with the stagnancy of his life. So many fans view it as hypocrisy that Xander talks to Buffy like this when his own life is up in the air. But I think that’s precisely the point. It’s supposed to be hypocritical because this is Xander learning a lesson of self-awareness on the way he can be and how he sometimes treats the people that he loves. The speech he gives is very insightful not because it’s directed at Buffy, but because it is reflecting on himself and is necessary consciousness development that he needs for himself. For all the flaws that Xander has (and I am aware that he has a lot - although so does every protagonist character so why only he gets the short end of the stick in the fandom I don’t know) he grows through them on his own. Entirely by himself. He doesn’t need to be taught or told to grow. He does it naturally as any young person naturally should. Growing up is a huge theme for both Buffy and Xander’s development all throughout the show and that’s why I think it really works that it’s Xander that stands in front of Buffy in this episode, noticing the same old self-destruct pattern Buffy always goes on when any kind of relationship conflict happens to her. He knows her that well as her best friend that he knows that this is always something she does: it’s a pattern. And while I do acknowledge that it’s not ever his business to tell Buffy what to do regarding her love life (who to date, what to wear etc,...), I do also equally acknowledge that he represents Buffy’s metaphorical Heart, and so if Buffy’s having difficulty following it or listening to it, then it’s likely Xander does too in his own arc, however significantly less prominent than Buffy’s because he’s not the lead main character.
The point is that the hypocrisy surrounding Xander’s position in this episode is precisely why he has it. The same can be said for his position in ‘Grave’. He is always the character to provide the necessary insight precisely because he is struggling with applying it for himself in his own life, - love life specifically - and at the same time that he is lecturing another character, he is also lecturing himself. Telling himself to take his own advice. His insight into another character’s life is his method of communicating with his Higher self. In the very moment where he is butting in unwanted, he is at the same time learning something about himself - something that he also has to contend and deal with. His insight is his self-development tool in that he eventually recognizes that he is being hypocritical. It is not him being an avatar of misogyny. His gender identity has absolutely nothing to do with why he does this - why his tendency is to involve himself in another character’s conflicts that he has no business being in and no right to comment on. This is how he grows, how he evolves. By getting in the way. By being a pain. By being a typical overbearing, controlling best friend who acts like they’re more than that. He uses what is considered in the fandom as his “annoying” or “problematic” traits to be a better person than he was yesterday because he sees through his own bullshit. He checks himself and then reassesses how he reacts. He grows through and out of his immature impulsions.
Yes, he is being hypocritical. That’s precisely the point because that is how he develops as a character. If people would watch what he says to Buffy in that scene through the perspective of how it informs him as a character over how it informs her, I think they would have less of a negative reaction towards it. I think a lot of people do not like that the narrative seems to depict Xander as “the one that saves the day” or “the one in the right” whenever he does this sort of thing. But I genuinely do not see it that way whenever he does it. I see it as how he self-reflects. How he becomes aware of his own character flaws and then how he uses that insight to change them. What fans see as his worst moments, I see it as the opposite because I know it’s his way of growing up. And the best character moments to me are the ones in which a character has an epiphany of self-growth. Human consciousness is funny like that. We often find that when we are being our worst selves, we’re actually being presented with an opportunity to learn to be better. And what makes the difference is what we choose to do in the moment. Reflect on our behaviour as it is being pointed out to us and make an effort to change it going forward, or remain ignorant to it and perpetuate our worst personality traits and flaws. Never really growing but going round in circles.
It’s the choice that matters. Always. And the reason why I like Xander as a character is because he really is someone who has no reason to be any better than the way he often behaves. He has never had any positive example of how to behave to look at and aspire to. No positive role model. And yet he almost always chooses to change his behaviour anyway as soon as he is aware of it. And that’s a very admirable quality to have. He is a very flawed character but his choice is to be better once he is aware of what his flaws are. And I love that. I love that Xander uses his worst self to be his best self. I think that is valid representation of the human condition. Of how we grow in our self-consciousness.
A lot of people don’t like Riley and give him a lot of hate. I personally liked him I thought he was a great character however his storyline was over after the initiative and he just became a clingy wet wipe. With everything going on in season 5 and in Buffy’s life I’m glad Riley left before his character was completely destroyed.
I always understood him and can very much sympathize with Riley's point of view - I just didn't like him as a character. Like, the fictional character Riley Finn is a decent and likable person, but he's dull to watch.
Yeah I'm happy his character made an exit, and I definitely think there was a change in who his character was between S4 & S5. To be fair to the writers though, I also think that Riley had a lot of built up issues/ underlying issues (largely due to his mind meddling in the initiative) that just needed a perfect storm of stress/ inattention to surface.
Super Duper fun thanks a lot!
Thanks for noticing the contradiction in Xander's "nobody told me anything" line. Riley literally told him. And then Xander acted like he was so observant and Buffy was so blind when Xander hadn't noticed anything before being told, either. Xander has his own perspective on the situation and that's fine, but that's such an odd way to start his argument.
Maybe so. However, I don't think Xander saying "Your boyfriends told me months ago that you don't love him" would have helped the situation.
Also, I'm pretty sure he was referring to no one telling him that Riley cheated. Besides, Riley saying to Xander that she doesn't love him is very clearly just Riley's perception. It's good that Xander didn't take that and run with it. It's essentially hearsay since neither of them bothered to ask her. It's funny to me how Xander hates can be equally made at him for not saying anything and respecting their privacy and then making for saying something and meddling. Come on now? It's not like these things are black and white, their nuisance and situational. Being in Xander shoes decided what to do with that information is not easy, and I'm sure many have been in similar situations at times.
I loved Riley because I never liked Angel for her. I always thought Angel couldn't really love her or make her happy because in order to be happy himself, he needed sex from her. Like...oook 🙄 that's his truly happy moment? I also don't really like the broody type. They are just so boring cuz they're too busy brooding. 😂
I knew Riley wasn't her end game but I hated the way they ended. He loved her so much and she didn't even care. He was such a good bf but she just didn't love him. It was sad but I completely understand where she was coming from.
I keep flashing back to the first season episode of Angel, "Sanctuary," when Buffy tells Angel about her relationship with Riley, and says that it's "different" because she can "trust him" (which she says simply to be petty).
Jump cut to this episode - I consider this some bad karma from Buffy coming back to bite her.
This broke my heart!
Never understood the hate for Riley. Both of them were to blame. Riley "cheated" by letting the vampires feed off him, and by giving Buffy an ultimatum. For Buffy's part, she was just using him. She took him for granted, and treated him as if he were nothing more than a safety net. It wasn't till the very end that she realized what she was losing. And, as usual, by that time, it's too late.
*WHOM.
Sorry for being that guy.
I loved Riley and thought they wrote him badly in this season. He never had a chance.
I can understand that Riley didnt feel like Buffy was as emotionally connected to him as he was to her, but that didnt give him license to lie to her and go get physical intimacy with someone else. Also, Xander does many stupid things throughout the show, but telling Buffy to go chase Riley ranks high on the list of stupid. Willow would have never.
The one thing that makes empathize with Riley is the fact when Joyce got sick, Buffy never really came to him for help, or comfort, or anything. Obviously she doesn’t need him to fight demons for her, but outside of that, she doesn’t really need him at all, and Riley knew it. The only time she really paid attention to him this season, is when everything fell apart.
He gave her solace but only after she processed things by herself. That would feel empty if you wanted to give your body heart and soul to someone who wouldn’t do the same (despite what she says)
Posting my BUFFY REWATCH recap for ‘Into The Woods’. May contain spoilers.
Willow and Anya's issues with each other will be better addressed in my recap for the next episode but I thought I would talk a little bit about them in the recap for this episode too.
One would think that the reason why Willow doesn't like Anya is because she's jealous of the relationship she has with Xander or she's jealous that Anya has Xander when she never really did. But that's not it. She may believe that Anya isn't good enough for Xander,... but Willow herself isn't interested in filling that role because she's well over Xander by now. Not just because she's gay but because Xander was never really interested in her to begin with. In fact, he only became interested when she was in a relationship with Oz and he was in a relationship with Cordelia. It was very much a "you only want me because you can't have me" kind of deal with them. We only want to have something when it's already been taken by something else. And that's what makes it so desirable. It being taken.
Xander himself even makes that apparent in 'Some Assembly Required':
“People don't fall in love with what's right in front of them. People want the dream. What they can't have. The more unattainable, the more attractive.”
While Willow always desired Xander with or without a significant other, Xander only ever desired Willow when she was with hers. And furthermore, it's specifically because she was taken by another male. By Oz. Because it stands to mention that now she's with Tara - he has no interest in her as a lover. In fact he is more interested in them being lovers and wants to see them be sexually intimate with each other. Which is shallow. The truth is Xander never really loved Willow in a romantic/sexual way. But she loved him in that way. And now she knows that his love for her in that way wasn't true... She's over him and his shallowness. She couldn't care a less who he is with anymore. She knows he never deserved her in the first place because he never reciprocated the love she had for him.
So Willow and Xander's love is purely platonic. They have no real love for each other in a romantic/sexual way. It was always just an infatuation thing because their friendship is so strong. Thus, strong friendship feelings were misinterpreted as romantic feelings. And while Willow did hold interest in Xander in that way once, she doesn't anymore because she now understands what real love is, what it looks like, what it means. And Xander was never it.
So there's some other reason why Willow and Anya butt heads. If we go back to the episode 'Dopplegangland', we will remember that the first time they interacted, Anya used Willow to get back to her dimension so that she could become a vengeance demon again. Their first meeting made them already at odds with each other before Anya was ever interested in dating Xander. So in Willow's mind, Anya hasn't made up for being an ex-demon, and so she doesn't deserve to be liked.
To Willow, Anya is still a vengeance demon and doesn't belong in their world. To Anya, Willow is a useless human that gets defended by everyone for doing what she believes is nothing. So they butt heads so often because they have no respect for each other as Scoobies or really as people in general.
The next episode, 'Triangle', changes this, and we begin to see their relationship develop into - not friendship - but civilship. Because they are forced to spend the day working together to fix some shit, they learn to tolerate each other's existence. But I will address that more when I write my episode recap for that episode. In this episode recap I primarily wanted to make the point that Willow and Anya's issues have nothing to do with Xander.
I 100% agree it would’ve been better if Buffy realized she didn’t love Riley and let him instead of trying to get him back at the last minute. Also much more realistic. I hated the way she ran after that goomba.
But I think Buffy did love Riley. Not as passionately as Angel, and not as passionately as Riley wanted her to. But I am sure she was in that partnership not just because he was there, but she actually had some feelings towards him.
Maybe she ran to make a clean cut and tell him good-bye.
It doesn't matter who dumped who. At this point it's just good that it is over.
I always felt bad for the actor who played Riley. It took him years to get back into the idea of the fandom because much of the fandom became rude towards him about his character during his run on the show and after. He was like the William Atherton (the guy who played Walter Peck in the first _Ghostbusters_ movie) of the Buffyverse, until only a few yars ago.
I've seen fans argue that Riley's attitude and character comes out of nowhere this season. I heavily argue that. Starting back in _Something Blue,_ Riley says as the last line of the episode, "you're going to teach me." It has him telling her and not asking her.
From there _Doomed_ comes along. In that episode, Buffy has genuine concerns about dating Riley. Despite having been casually dating Joe Normal Riley, she isn't ready to do so with soldier Riley because of her past with Angel, Faith and as the slayer. Riley calls her "stupid" and "self-involved" for not wanting to date him anymore. The reason this red flag usually isn't called out is because Riley hides the toxic masculinity attitude once Buffy decides to date him at the end of the episode. Personally, she wasn't ready to date. Willow and Riley both pushed her into it after Buffy said no.
Riley lost his sense of self when The Initiative fell. Everything Adam said about Maggie designing him and being a "mother" to him had a ring of truth to it when he no longer knew how to handle life in general without the purpose The Initiative gave him. That purpose is now "The mission's boyfriend" (take care of Buffy while fighting at her side) as Graham eventually says to him (sad thing is that is in part why Angel needed to leave as well. He had no sense of self outside of being Buffy's boyfriend, either).
In _The Yoko Factor,_ Riley starts showing jealousy. Riley's jealousy isn't because of Xander or Angel directly (although I don't think Xander should have said anything to Riley about the curse or his opinions on it). People's jealousies are their own, even when other people trigger them. Then we come to the Buffy and Riley forgiveness moment of that episode. Riley saying, "I'm so in love with you I can't think straight" put all Riley's jealousy blame on Buffy while he continues to act jealous until this episode.
With said jealousy comes a bigger urge to be "mission's boyfriend" (take even bigger care of Buffy than before) in order to fill The Initiative's void. But he struggles to keep up with Buffy and in _Out of My Mind_ his body cannot take it after what The Initiative has done to his body and needs surgery.
Riley told Xander in _The Replacement_ Buffy didn't love him. His realization of that led to him deciding to purposely start getting bit, in _Family,_ to understand Buffy. 🤦♂🙄🤦♀ He gets caught in this episode. I don't think it's that Buffy doesn't love Riley. She fought against dating him knowing she wasn't ready to begin with. Riley was a long term rebound from Angel she cared about. A different kind of love than what Riley wanted from her. Riley's actions as a result show the side of him that was building since early S4 (although probably a lifelong issue for Riley). When the two of them argue, Riley actually says he isn't giving her an ultimatum when that is exactly what he is doing.
Riley's excuses for getting bit are weak attempts to justify the metaphor of paying for a prostitute (the drug metaphor was there too, but Riley defined connections between vampires and sexuality as well as got sucked by female vampires specifically [one in particular]) before giving her an ultimatum and telling her that isn't what he was doing, followed by stating directly as a closing line, "Unless you give me a reason to stay, I'm leaving tonight."
When Riley tells Buffy the vampires needed him specifically, as if they wouldn't just move on to the next human with a wad of cash and available blood, it shows how far gone into his red flag territory he is. Same with saying its about him taking care of Buffy. It wasn't. It's about obsession. Riley's getting love and obsession mixed up at this point and become delusional if he thinks getting bit was the answer to her not opening up to people. She talked to him or asked him to open up when she saw he had heart issues, but he didn't until she forced the issue.
But that doesn't mean pushing people to open up is the right answer either. Riley wanted to comfort her; to give his life that purpose of "Mission's boyfriend." Buffy's personality was already struggling with Riley wanting to do that as she is a strong, independent woman, but without The Initiative, Riley is depending on Buffy by trying to get her to depend on him. Buffy opens up to people and allows people to take care of her the way Riley was asking when they don't push her into said action and when she trusts the relationship enough. It took Giles until the end of _Helpless_ (22 months) before Buffy opened up to him that way. Riley has known Buffy 14 months and they have only been dating 11 months. If he was patient and didn't push it by doing things like trying to lean her head on his shoulder when that wasn't her natural reaction (and leave his jealousy behind), eventually she would have allowed him to "take care of her."
Being "on top of everything" is in her job description. Riley's reaction to not getting those things from Buffy is obsession. Not love. I disagree with Riley when he said he could handle Buffy being physically stronger. A part of Buffy's problem is that she feels that she has to be as emotionally strong as she is physically and I don't think Riley had figured that one out because he is the one that's dependent on her.
None of this includes the fact that Riley was asking for Buffy to be comforted by him when her mom was in the hospital, either.
How Riley handles the fallout of this episode is a natural progression from the first red flags of Riley saying, "You're going to teach me" and calling Buffy "stupid" and "self-involved" until giving his ultimatum in this episode.
Xander is, in many ways, similar to Riley. That is why he identifies with Riley when Riley tells Xander Buffy doesn't love Riley. Xander is remembering Buffy turning him down in _Prophecy Girl_ (and blocking out his own toxic reaction). Therefore when Buffy and Riley's relationship implodes, Xander guilted Buffy into chasing the helicopter down ("He's never held back with you," "think about what you're about to lose" and also him not caring that the ultimatum would lead to just as many problems in the Buffy/Riley relationship as they already have. None of these things seem to phase Xander. He is just identifying with Riley when nothing Riley has done is healthy to the relationship). Whether he guilted her intentionally or unintentionally is up for debate, but he acted like Riley's issues weren't part of the problem. Xander is pushing Buffy into his decision of what he wants her to do and not what she would do. I don't look at chasing the helicopter as a decision Buffy would have made if Xander didn't make her feel guilty. Buffy and Riley's problems are a reason to let Riley go and not chase after him. In my opinion, Xander was doing what he said he liked to do in _Enemies:_ say I told you so.
Why didn't Xander bring their issues up to Buffy sooner if he was so worried? There has been nine weeks since Riley told Xander Buffy doesn't love him. Saying something only after it was too late (especially to the degree of how could you of not seen it coming Buffy) doesn't help the Buffy/Riley relationship even if Buffy had caught up to the helicopter. People claim he was trying to in an earlier episode. But under the circumstances metaphor was not the way to go. Directness was. Buffy and Riley have already shown on both sides non-communication skills since day one. Xander is identifying with Riley so much that he is showing Buffy blame without giving Riley at least equal due for Buffy and Riley's problems.
Buffy turning it around on Xander shows that Xander didn't see the problems of his relationship with Anya anymore than he assumed Buffy should of been able to see hers with Riley. Buffy rebounding with Riley is a common thing to do with humans. Xander didn't and wouldn't have saved the Riley/Buffy relationship. He waited nine weeks to say something, and even then it was only when things were unsavable. Buffy said something as a result of Xander attacking her and might have saved the Xander/Anya relationship by saying Xander was using Anya as a convenience.
Xander also states in other episodes indirectly that being the only guy his age in a mostly group of females is hard. He didn't want to be the only other male figure his age in the group. That combined with identifying with Riley made what he said to Buffy wrong. But there is nothing wrong with Buffy dating Riley as a rebound (despite initially arguing against dating him to begin with because she had genuine concerns about dating Riley).
Xander starts their alley conversation high and mighty and then convinces her she needs to choose to run after him. But I think he actually lays out why they needed to end it more than give her a reason to chase the helicopter. So when Buffy runs after Riley, it is Xander unintentionally choosing for her because he identifies with Riley. Xander attempted to talk to Riley a few times indirectly, but if he were as worried and aware about the relationship as he claims in that alley, he would have talked to Buffy as well, especially as he put a lot of blame on her for not loving Riley (which for a rebound is what is practically expected of that type of relationship - just a casual and/or fun time with few strings).
Good breakdown, though I think you meant the episode 'Out of My Mind' rather than 'Out of Sight, Out of Mind' (w Darcie, the invisible girl).
I feel a lot of Riley's problem is that he is emotionally adrift after having been a 'yes' man to Mother for so long and losing that grounding. Feeling insecure and serving up ultimatums is not forgivable but understandable given his emotional underdevelopment.
Xander relating to Riley afa buffy goes is something i'd never considered before. It makes sense, though I think that his commitment to Anya is now genuine and so he might also regard his current situation as a parallel to Briley and what can happen if you don't demonstrate that commitment.
@@dayceem I typed all this out, then youtube told me I had an error and it wouldn't upload. So, I re-typed and typed the S1 episode title instead. It's one of my regular oops's anyway, but after being frustrated it wouldn't upload... even more so of an opps than usual.
I so agree with what you said !
From that first time he called Buffy "stupid", and "self-involved"... I was done with him. And after that, "I'm so in love with you I can't think straight" or the ultimatum... I cannot like the character because that kind of things are a no go for me. No matter what.
Buffy has her flaws, yes. But that does not make any of what he did or said right. I have nothing against Mark Blucas. I actually love his acting and I was so sorry to learn what some "fans" put him through. Nonetheless, I still don't like the character XD Never did, never will ahah
I really appreciate this long breakdown of Riley as a character. So many great points. I think so many people forget about the early moments in season 4: Doomed specifically, where he pushes her to date when she’s not ready.
Buffy never loved Riley, he just happened to be the only decent man to give her attention when she was going through a tough time dating when she tried it with Parker etc. after her heartbreak with Angel.
I always tell people who watch this episode to understand that this show is called ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’.
This means the show is largely in favour of Buffy and her perspective. Which further means we see through her eyes the most.
Any objective or external outlook as to what goes on in the episodes (I.e. Xander’s outlook) will be pushed aside and maybe even viewed as emotionally hostile because his outlook is not Buffy’s.
Does this mean that he is in the right in this episode? No. But it also means that he is not necessarily in the wrong either. This is just his outlook. An outlook of which is not obvious to the fandom because it’s not Buffy’s.
I actually don’t HATE Riley. I even liked Riley in season 4 (outside of some… mildly sexist comments) which I think puts me in the minority. I have issues with how he acts in season 5 for SO many reasons though, and it makes it difficult for me to like Riley pretty much as soon as season 5 starts.
1. He states that “Buffy is not in love” with him. He states it like a fact, not like a question, yet he CHOOSES to continue to date her. He doesn’t have a conversation with her about the way he feels, he just gets mad at her for not behaving in the way he wants her to even though, in his mind, she is not in love with him and everything she does simply solidifies that. (I think Buffy does love Riley, but that’s not even important to this conversation, honestly.)
2. Riley starts cheating on Buffy (emotionally, if you choose to acknowledge nothing else about those scenes) with vampires WHILE Buffy is dealing with the emotional crisis of her mom being sick/in the hospital. Literally, the same episode Joyce is in the hospital, Riley starts cheating.
3. Riley tries to push the blame of the situation onto Buffy as if Buffy had any idea Riley felt this way. (We’re not even going to touch on Xander or the ultimatum, even though that “Everyone knows you and Riley are imploding” comment is BS, since Riley told Xander about it.) Buffy being emotionally unavailable, distant, etc. Buffy has shown that she’s willing to risk life and limb, against unreasonable odds, to save Riley’s life. Is it the same kind of love she felt for Angel? No, I assume not. Is that a reasonable expectation to put on anyone? No, absolutely not. Every relationship is different.
I feel like Riley made Buffy his whole identity. It used to be the Initiative, and when he lost that, he lost his identity, so he latched on to Buffy. So when BUFFY didn’t make HIM her whole identity (she still had friends, a job, a family, etc) he kind of fell apart. She was the most important part of his world, but he wasn’t hers.
You have no idea how annoyed Xander's speech made me this episode. I get that they're trying to make him have more substance but talking down to Buffy about her relationship is actual BS, considering his relationship with Anya isn't even that stable like who are you to talk
My issue with this Riley story is that it's basically character assassination with the agenda of wanting to remove a character from a show in an expedient way. I dont think her and Riley would have lasted but i think the break down would have been a bit more normalised, however, to get there quicker they did the vampire/drug turn. I think it honestly would have been better for him to have just cheated with someone - you don't see it on screen, but it happens and then there's the fallout from it and Buffy pushing him away. I do think Buffy loves him, but wasn't in love with him. He was what she needed at the time in season 4, she needed a good guy, but that doesnt work in the Buffy world. As far as Xander speaking with Buffy, he's seen and heard from Riley the issues he and they have been having so he's able to look at it from an external pov. He knows Buffy very well as well and I think he knows that if she just let Riley go she would regret it and that's why he confronts her to get her to realise the urgency of the situation. On another note, some fans always harp on saying that Xander's always trying to get with Buffy because he still fancies her through the series... if that was true (which its not at all, evidenced in Restless where their relationship is very clearly transtioned from crush to brother/sister) he would not be Buffy and Riley's biggest fanboy. 😅
I don't think the cheating in his final episode is why fans dislike him.
@alicequinn505 Not just the cheating. The whole of his season 5 story/behavior. Plus season 4 alot of fans thought he was too plain for Buffy.
Im honestly surprised to see how many fans aren't harping on this episode the way I expected - and Im in agreement. MANY people HATE Xander this episode, whereas I consider it one of his best moments. I dont think he's "defending" Riley he's not sitting there telling her what to do. He's pushing her to make a decision because she's in a state of ambivalence- its very much aligned with the philosophy of the show about making choices that appear again and again in existentialism and motivational interviewing.
The first time I watched this episode the Xander speech got me right in the feels. And in many ways I doubt Buffy would have ever tried to get to Riley without Xander giving that specific speech. Which admittedly on the first few watches made me a little teary-eyed, especially since we as an audience, got to see Riley open up to Xander about his feelings.
But Riley letting those vamps nibble on his bits was CHEATING. And when Buffy and Riley finally talk he didn't even apologize to Buffy for it. He made excuses, justifications for his actions and in the end asked for her to HIT him. So while I do understand your point of Xander pushing Buffy to make a choice, it's also perfectly understandable for her in this situation to not be ready to.
I love Xander but I do very much dislike him at times. And given his behavior I'm gonna say its at times more than justified. This episode for me is one of those times.
Xander already knew what Riley felt and the one time he brings it up is in front of the entire group in away that everyone mistakes it for being about him. He never pulls Buffy aside and has a conversation about it. Instead after Buffy and Riley are on the outs he shows up and blames her for not seeing it coming and lies to her saying that no one told him anything. This is his best friend.
Passion of the Nerd has an excellent breakdown of this episode which probably can summarize why people are mad at Xander a lot better than I can in my current sleep deprived state. So if you love Buffy and haven't seen it yet I highly suggest giving in a watch.
Yeah, I've noticed some comments saying that Xander doesn't "get" Buffy, and I think that's true: he didn't realize everything that was going on between Riley and Buffy, and his view of the relationship was less clear than what we the audience know. At the same time, his speech was heartfelt and true and contained a lot of good advice like you said about making a decision, as difficult as it might be. I was more surprised at Buffy's response to Xander's speech (sprinting to the helicopter like a rom com heroine) than by what Xander said, which I think was honest advice from a good friend
@@Kat15342 I have seen it, it's just one of the few times I don't agree with Ian 🤷♀️
IMO there is no right or wrong in how Xander handle it. I mean, really, it was Riley's responsibility to talk to Buffy about his feelings, Xander was just triangulated into it. And I never read that scene as him lying to her. I always took it as no one told him about the recent event of the episode, that they were tension. Yes, Riley said what he said in the season 5 opener, but halfway in, it probably starts to look like it was just a rough patch from his perspective. I guess it can be read either way, but in the end (unlike season 2 finally) it doesnt change anything had he mentioned his convo with Riley. It's not like he deliberated held the information because he wanted them to break up, he has been very vocal about likely Riley. Again, it's not an easy place for him to be in. The old Xander I'm sure would have been more likely to gossip and meddle, but by staying out of it until it became a bit more public I feel was more mature of him and respectful to both of them. But, I respect you and others feel the way you do.
@samanthas8340 I don't fully agree with TPN, but I do think he captures the majority of why some of us get mad at Xander.
I can acknowledge that Xander knowing what Riley told him, puts him in a tough spot. But the way Xander approaches her after she hides from him just rubs me wrong. He confronts her. Add the bit about her not being able to see what was happening, and it gives me "kick his ass" vibes from season 2.
But don't get me wrong, I totally see your pov and enjoyed being able to think about it from the other side. So it's all 💖. And it's honestly got me wondering if my opinion might change again as I get older.
A lot of people miss the fact that Buffy does not even once tells Riley she loves him throughout the entire time he is in the show.
Who misses that?
@@TheRealGSmithwell they must miss it is they’re angry with Riley for not being happy with the relationship
I should really check that,because I trust you're right,but I'd like to have an ultimate proof because I remember Riley blaming Buffy for not loving him and Buffy getting mad and be like: "How can you say that I don't love you?!>:"-O"and if you're right and if I was Riley I would be like:"You haven't told me _once_ since we know each other!!>:-/"Not saying that you _need_ to declare your love out loud(actions speak louder than words and blah blah blah),but Buffy _did_ say"I love you to Angel",I'm sure,and I think multiple times(again,I should check to be sure)so it's not just that she's not the type of person who would say that out loud,for whatever reason linked to her personality or trust issues or whatever,she just never said that _to Riley._ And I think that says something.Sometimes even non-words speak louder than words!;-P
After the trauma she went through after saying it last time, it's understandable. She did say it to Angel in LA though. That she loves Riley and trusts him.I think she cares about him and she gave him all that she was able to give at the time, wasn't enough for Reily. Also, saying I love iyou s special for Buffy and she doesn't just throw it around.
@@natalijaarbutina8265 that’s understandable as well as Riley being dissatisfied with that. He had a feeling that she wasn’t over angel and wasn’t ready to open herself up to someone and yet she denied it in order to keep him around. That wasn’t fair.
I don't know what to think about Riley 😅 If it wasn't for this... i would have put him in favorites
I think Riley&Buffy were never right for each other since the beginning...I don't blame Riley;I never liked him,but I never hated him either. He's in the middle.😶But he's a good guy.💚Just not the right one for Buffy.
In case you haven’t noticed he was toxic in this relationship. You might think he is a good guy, but I know better.
@@miaamer7718 i got to give a point to Angel, he was toxic "only" as a vampire
@@trix_42 Angel was always toxic
@@miaamer7718 1)Buffy has been toxic too in several occasione. 2)SPOILER
After all you've said I *DEEPLY HOPE* you're not a Spuffy shipper!>:-[ Because if you consider Riley and _Angel_ (not Angelus,ANGEL!)to be toxic,you *CAN'T* tell me the right guy for Buffy is Spike! I just hope you wish her to be single or to find some better guy we never met in the show.
I don’t know why anyone doesn’t like this one. It’s really just like that friends episode: “The one where Chandler feels ignored by Monica so he shares dirty needles with a whore in a crack den then flies away to join the military in a helicopter”.
🤣🤣 This is by far the most creative and best way to succinctly define this episode.
It just feels like the episode is telling us through Xander explicitly and through the choice of music during her running that it's Buffy's fault because she didn't recognize and appreciate Riley. Xander doesn't care that Riley got sucked off by vamps (or he doesn't know) and Riley gets writtdn out of the show quickly and not in a great way. They were great together in season 4 and in season 5 she suddenly doesn't love him. For me personally it felt forced and not very organic progression of their arc.
I don't feel that way. I believe the episode is leaving things up to the viewer to decide, and also is leaning heavily into Riley isn't the one she needed at the time.
@@alicequinn505 maybe you're right. I just feel confused upon every rewatch of this ep.
I've never hated xander more than in that moment. He had months of knowing, of processing what Riley told him. He kept it to himself, only to throw it in buffy's face the second he could, when her world was falling to pieces and then him pretending he's the f*cking hero.
He's not.
If the man my best friend was in a long term relationship had said that to me I would have told my best friend almost immediately! They both disrespected buffy so hard by denying her the insight into his feelings about his relationship with her. Her world was falling apart while she had to save it on the regular, she didn't have time to coddle Riley. Yes he went through massive trauma, but he wasn't accepting help. She tried over and over again. You can't help someone who won't let you. Something he felt fine complaining about with her, but it was totally okay for him to do. Wtf Riley?!
The writers just destroyed riley's character this season. And f*cking xander can get out of here with his last minute speech. It's MONTHS too late my dude!
"I'm xander. I see all." Pfft. 🙄
"They both disrespected Buffy so hard by denying her the insight into his feelings about his relationship with her." I must say I'm not surprised,though...if you think about _some future episodes_ you should know Xander _does_ have this kind of flaw of not discussing problems when he should...;-/
"You can't help someone who won't let you."You can say the same about Buffy,though.Riley tried numerous times to understand what she was going through and to help/support her,but she pretty much always cut him out because it was all"Slayer stuff"and so he eventually gave up and went to look someone else to establish some kind of bond with(the vampire ladies).
["I'm Xander. I see all." Pfft. 🙄] _See_ is not the same as _tell_ though. You can _see_ a lot of stuff,but if you keep them to yourself you won't be of great use,buddy...;-/
Yes girls. Life lesson time.
If during difficult times for you, (yes you are right her mother is very sick) your man is telling you that you don't pay enough attention to him and behind your back he goes to have 'some other company' and after you learned it and confronted him he implies that it's your fault and threatens you that he will leave you if you don’t prove your love for him like right the f/ck now, somehow. You have to run after him like crazy because how can you miss such a gift. Because, pay attention my dear, you won’t have anything better than this. Ever. That's what plot teaches you here. And let's give this a round of applause.
Mom didn't die, but is very sick. But yeah, this episode makes me hate Riley.
It's not as simple as that.
Before he met Buffy, Riley had a complete life ahead of him. A lifetime of service in the military, unique work that was both unusual & exciting, a boss he looked up to, friends and colleagues in the initiative. It's not her fault obviously but after he met her he lost everything and simply became Buffy's boyfriend. The initiative was shut down, he found out his work wasn't that unique, got discharged out of the military. He even lost the somewhat superhuman strength he was given with. Add to that the (i think mistaken) belief that Buffy likes him but doesn't love him and the realisation she doesn't need him (much if any ) for protection, it's easy to imagine how a previously highly driven &even confident man can get depressed & be left with the feeling of needing 'something more'.
And no, I don't know what you watched but Buffy's mom eventually does pulls through after a couple of health scares including the final medical issue with her where it took a couple of average EMTs to 'bring her back' to life from what turned out to be a non supernatural medical issue.
What about reversed genders?
Because this is FAR more common the other way around, and I can point to almost endless examples of women complaining about their partners or filing for divorce because of emotional distance, lack of communication, emotional unavailability etc.
Riley isn't in the right.
But Buffy also hasn't been treating him right.
It's not necessarily about attention. As her partner, Riley wanted Buffy to emotionally be messy and involve him in her sadness and emotional turmoil. He felt she was not letting him in before and after Joyce's situation. Like, don't make me defend Riley and what he does in this episode (making it look like it is only Buffy's fault) but I too would feel like I am not special for my partner if he was not opening up to me, crying with me etc. Like, if there was one person I'd love to share my deep emotions, private emotions, it would have to be my partner. If I cannot do that with them, then what is even the point. So, that's what Riley was expecting, and maybe Buffy isn't necessarily that type of person, but I also feel like she would have allowed Angel in a lot more than she does Riley.
I literally don't understand what you're talking about.
Feel like an idiot that I actually thought your name was Thor🤦
Yaaaaay! Bye, Riley! Don't come back now, y'hear?
And no, Xander is a POS trying to make excuses for Riley and attacking Buffy because he's still in his incel mode. Always got to punish the girl who got away.
It’s fascinating watching this again as an adult having watched it obsessively when it came out. This time around I dislike xander - increasingly as the seasons progress, think Riley is more understandable, still dislike Joyce (reminds me of an aunt) really sympathise with buffy when I didn’t understand her before , still adore spike and Tara, I m a bit scared of angel now when before I thought he was a good guy, get more annoyed at Giles than before though he has good points, and I now hate willow right from the beginning and struggle to see good points even though I can see early willow is quite funny. By season two she’s pretty much worn out her welcome with me and I just see all the traits I don’t like having their foundations laid….which is probably excellent writing, but isn’t very enjoyable . Being a grown up is weird.
I don't hate Riley but I do HATE this episode.... I believe Buffy really loved Riley but it was a more mature, healthy relationship in contrast with Bangel that was a teenage relationship, intense and dramatic even a little toxic, a "I would die for you" kind of love, which let's face it, only "works" in the movies.
Buffy is her own person, and is not interested in being rescued because she doesn't NEED to, and I can't help but feel that Riley could never make peace with that. His expectations of their relationship were different, with much more dependency. Buffy was Riley's whole world (which is never good) and he was expecting to be the same for her but she has SO many other things to take care of than just her boyfriend. And there's nothing wrong with that!!!! In the end I hate that even if she did everything right and everything she *could* do, she's still left like the one in the wrong, like everything got screwed up because of her. When he's the one that cheated, gave her an ultimatum and gaslighted her into thinking it was her fault that he was "pushed" to do what he did because he felt neglected by her world saving girlfriend who is scared to death that is going to lose her mom, has to fight the strongest enemy in her life so far and try to keep up with college and a vampire infestation in her town. Like COME ON RAILEY!! The world doesn't end if you are not your girlfriend's priority for once!!!
Buffy dodged a bullet with this one, tbh. I cant say I hate Riley bc the man is too bland to evoke such a powerful emotion, but I sure as hell ain't sad to see him go. Riley had red flags from the start, people just chose to ignore them (like calling her self-centered when she didn’t wanna date him bc she was still healing from her previous relationship, being super weird abt buffy being stronger than him ALWAYS like... my dude why do you HAVE to know you can take down your girlfriend? Thats weird. Weirdo behavior.)
Exactly!!
A clean breakup required one last talk, Buffy didn't get that and neither did Riley. They both lost because Riley had to do that ultimatum BS.
This episode makes me hate Riley. I don't care how much Buffy was "ignoring" him or being distant while her mom was going through major brain surgery, her sister turns out to be hunted by the big bad and isn't even her sister - she goes through all that and Riley's response is to whine about how he's being ignored, give her an ultimatum after it's revealed he cheated on her?! No, fuck that. Good riddance.
Yeah, I would love my partner to completely shut me out while their parents are in peril. I'd rather them to turn to randoms and whatnot. Because who am I to my partner?! Right?!
He doen's know about the sister thing. The ultimatum wasn't exactly planned. All of his actions are very understandable. So I'd say hating him is a pretty strong reaction.
@@TheRealGSmith I mean, I can hate him if I want, it's just a TV show. I had thought she tell him about the sister, Giles knew at least. I still don't agree his actions are understandable, he could have tried talking to her about it rather than sneaking out to hire essentially prostitutes.
@@zenithquasar9623 I'd love it if my partner made my mom's life threatening illness all about them and our relationship. Sometimes you should just BE THERE for someone you care about.
@@lauraw2526 Saying that he could have done better doesn't make his actions not understandable.
Angel will always be Buffy’s one true love. Who even is Riley? Spike is honorary side piece. On a serious note, I feel like Riley didn’t face any real consequences for his actions. He literally just dipped. He waited for like 5 sec.😂😂 like come Joss
I remember watching this when it aired, and virtually every person I knew either did not care at all, or actively celebrated Riley leaving. I was/am a diehard Bangel shipper who slightly shipped Spuffy for a short while (until the show shot that to hell). I don't know a single person who shipped Buffy and Riley or even remained invested in Riley as a character. No shade to Marc Blucas.
Buffy loves Riley. Buffy does not need Riley. Buffy thinks it is being physically stronger. But it is because she is emotionally stronger. Some men need to “save” women. She is better off without him. Eventually he would need to find other ways to degrade her in order to feel superior. He might attack her intellect, her body image, her lack of income earning, even her housekeeping. Anything to make himself feel better. Goodbye Riley.
That's not Riley AT ALL.
Xander gave buffy the harsh truth. Which was needed. Buffy treated riley just like a rebound, like xander said. He was giving her a wake up call. I thought that was obvious xander did nothing wrong. And riley never deserved the hate he got. Buffy pushed him away. She ismt without fault either.
My least favorite Xander moment (almost, but not quite for the entire series) was his speech. It is worse than "the big lie". As a character, he is not qualified to make his speech about whether Reilly is "The one" for Buffy. Others often disagree with this sentiment, based on previous comments to other reactors. But Xander had NO right to try to redirect Buffy re: Reilly.
I hate Xander in this episode. I'm glad at the end he told Anya he loves her because the rest of the episode he was incredibly patronising and disrespectful towards her. I don't hate Riley but it's pretty clear that he just couldn't handle the fact that Buffy didn't need him to protect her. He needs some time to grow up.
I hate this ep with a vengance. Shoddy writing.
To each their own.
I know it's selfish cuz you got a lot going on but i hate how slow it takes to see your reactions. 💔😞
09:00 - 09:06 *IF ONLY!!!* 09:06 - 09:07 Great question!!!X-O 09:23 - 09:28 I don't think she needs a _monster_ but she can't be with a _human._ She's too strong,constantly in danger and among monsters,she needs someone who can be at her same level. You know...like Angel!🖤...If it wasn't for the tiny little detail about the curse and him being immortal while she's not. ;-(
09:29 - 09:32 That guy's Plot Armor is way too thick.😒💢 I hate that.😡💢
Food for thought:
Buffy CONTINUALLY undermines and emasculates Riley.
Sure, she has justification when she's angry during their argument... but she's done it all season.
If the genders were reversed, I don't think ANYONE would hate Buffy.
If her bf had ignored, undermines and belittled her continually. Had confided in other women. Had excluded her from important facets of his life... I don't think people would be so mad at her reacting poorly.
Riley IS in the wrong for his actions.
But Buffy is NOT blameless for how she has treated him.
And his ultimatum is not wrong.
He asked her for a reason to stay. Nothing more. He didn't ask for forgiveness. He didn't ask for unconditional love. He didn't ask her not to be angry.
He JUST asked her for a reason he should stay.
Anyone who thinks that is unfair is just... an INCREDIBLY shitty person to be in a relationship. Does Riley not get a choice? Must he just ACCEPT the way he is treated. Put up with it. Does his consent not matter?
Literally EVERY viewer can see that his observations are correct. So what else is he supposed to do? Allow Buffy to continue to use him while making him miserable? Allow himself to be treated as inferior, then castigated when he's uncomfortable with this?
Naw. Riley might be wrong, but Buffy is MORE wrong.
And that is okay.
Part of what makes her an amazing character is she can be flawed. She's not perfect. She hurts people she loves. She makes mistakes. And she's STILL a good person, trying her best. And that is important.
Xanders speech was perfect imo.
Not judgmental. He's willing to support whatever Buffy chooses, but wants HER to understand that it IS her choice.
He has a bias (of course) but it is perfectly in keeping with his character and he is not pushing.
I do NOT understand how people hate that speech.
We the viewers don't AGREE with his position, bc it is VERY clear to us that Riley is correct and they should both move on. But it is internally consistent and reasonable.
And can I just add this, even though it makes me sound like a terrible person even in my own head, but the obvious solution was for Riley to dump Buffy when he knew she couldn't meet his needs, but you can't leave your spouse while her mother's sick, it would just make you the shittiest person ever. Riley obviously wanted to have a conversation with and/or end it with Buffy the entire time right from the 4th or 5th episode, but he couldn't make it about himself and/or leave Buffy while her mom was so sick; the timing was never right. Which is why this blow-up needed to happen right after her mom got well. No-one can blame Buffy for being occupied with her mom, but I can't blame Riley for feeling all the effects of it either. People hate Riley because they think he's making all about himself while Buffy is going through so much, but really, we only feel that because the viewers are shown what Riley's going through and his resulting self-destructive behaviour, but when he's with Buffy he really is putting her first. It's just that some people dont like Riley as Buffy's boyfriend or think he's not an interesting enough character, they couldn't care less about his pain and care very much about Buffy, so they hate that his drinking and blood-sucking is taking screen time away from the Buffy, and they think that means he is too self-involved. But seriously, when he is not helping Buffy or when she has sent him away like a fucking postcard, what else is he supposed to do but wallow in his misery? Does it make someone selfish to still be aware of their own pain when someone else is in a lot more pain, especially if there's a constant reminder of that pain? I think it just makes you human.
Riley could have communicated better, but come on, a relationship isn't a transaction or a business meeting, Buffy could also have just seen that he was really hurting, it was on his face the entire time. That's all Riley wanted, for Buffy to see him. In his head, if he had to speak out his pain and ask for love, it would defeat the entire purpose, coz he didn't want Buffy to repeat her assurances from episode 4, he wanted her to SEE him. I know it was stupid, but that's just how feelings work sometimes, I can understand this, even if I don't agree with it.
Well said.
It's part of why Whedon shows are so good.
Loath him or not, the man assembled amazing teams of talent and delivered complex characters whose choices make sense even when a viewer disagrees.
And I personally think it's extremely rewarding when there are no easy answers and the lines are blurred.
In this situation there ARE no bad guys.
Just good people doing their best and failing each other.
@@asthajindal5275
Right because he didn’t do any of those things to her too. Right? It was just Buffy. Dude stop being so blind.
@@miaamer7718He didn't either undermine or belittle her. He did try to be pushy and clingy and make her feel bad for not thinking about him enough though, which was sometimes pretty shitty.
"they both acted poorly" is blind?
Mate, a LOT of the Buffy fandom are just straight up hypocrites when it comes to gender issues.
This one is a prime example.
YOU might absolve Buffy completely (despite agreeing they should split up, I assume?) but I do not absolve Riley.
He acted badly. Buffy has every right to be furious. And she shouldn't stay with him.
But that doesn't mean she didn't do shit wrong.
I think you need to hold a mirror up.
@@miaamer7718
So yeah. I hate Riley. He was ok in season 4, when he was all super-soldier, but in this season he's just a whiny afterthought. Since the Initiative is done and super-soldier is a thing of the past I feel the writers just couldn't fit him in the narrative comfortably any more. He became the stereotypical macho dude, needing constant reassurance that he is relevant and important in his woman's life, and getting all puppy dog face when he's not. He needs Buffy to need him and rely on him, but she doesn't. She's guarded because of past relationships. She's going thru a ton of personal shit with Joyce's illness, discovering her potential as the Slayer Supreme, and Dawn's very existence. She's keeping him starts length because she's trying to keep it together and stay strong and that's not going to happen if she goes all damsel just to stroke his ego. She treats him like the rebound guy because he is the rebound guy. He was filling a need and that's crappy of her and crappy for him, but there were never going to be little fat babies on an Iowa farm in their future. And I hate Xander in most every episode, but especially when he thinks he's all insightful and tries lecturing Buffy on life.
Bye Riley! Nice guy but zzzzzz
Are you only doing 1 episode a month? You do soluchh a great job. But the #BTVS audience wanting more. When it aired. There was atleast 1 new episode a week
I do one episode of either Buffy or Angel every week following the SlayAlive order 😊