imo the hive wanted paul specifically because he was the most difficult to get. if they can get the guy who doesn't want anything, the guy who doesn't like musicals, then they can get anyone. which is why when they finally do get him, he's LEADING the hive (see; the rest of the hive following and mimicking paul's moves in inevitable). he's a trophy, in a sense.
I always thought that Paul's main "Want" is for it to stop being a musical, which drives him to the meteor, where he gets infected. I really like your analysis!
The way that I watched the musical was that Paul was missing something. He wasn’t aware of it, but he was missing something. And I thought that the thing he was missing was engagement in life. He didn’t have anything to engage him. And he couldn’t push himself to ask Emma out. So then the Hive comes in and they try to push him into being engaged and asking Emma out. They already knew all about Paul. That’s why they chose Paul to be the main character in their show. The opening number is the Aliens telling the audience their plan and why they’re doing what they’re doing. And by the end, Paul HAS connected to Emma. It’s just that now the only way for them to stay connected is to be in the Hive.
Obviously, you bring up a ton of good points regarding what Paul's true wants are, and he may have multiple, but when you mentioned trying to use the things that Paul doesn't to find out what he does want, I realized something. The whole point of the Want is to drive the plot forward. What drives the plot of the musical forward? It could just be a basic will to survive, but I think it's really Paul avoiding the hive, or more specifically, being in a musical. (thus his line "And I will never be in a f***ing musical.") One of the first things he does is decline an invitation to a musical. This is why it's in the title, and part of why the hive has such a hard time getting him to join them. This want is pretty specific to the situation/plot so it makes sense for Paul to have other wants that the hive can exploit.
I wholeheartedly agree. Ive felt for a while that a common thread in the Hatchetfield Shows seems to be the promise of happiness and how it is fundamentally a lie. In black friday it is happiness through consumption. While TGWDLM is more ambigous, but it is related to the societal promise of happiness through conformity. Or it could also be metacommentary on central conflict theory and how we've engrained as a society its promise of resolution and on our conflict (want) being central to the plot that is our lives
I just realized The Hive works similarly to the monster virus in the webtoon Sweet Home. and similarly the main character is a guy who can resist the virus by virtue of not having any wants (or rather, the only thing he wants to do is to die and that doesn't vibe with the monsters' motivation for mutating ppl)
10:17 It’s possible the hive is being fairly literal when they say Paul will “choke on [his] agony until [he] begs for apotheosis.” It’s a bit crude compared to their earlier attempts at manipulation, but forcing Paul into a situation where he *wants* the pain to end, i.e. wants to give in and become a part of the hive, could be enough of a concrete Want to let them actually infect him.
"I've never been happy Wouldn't that be nice?" During Paul's "transformation" (?) in Let It Out, it's clear to me that the hive wants Paul very specifically, to become a part of the musical by his own choice. Why is Paul so important for them? "You Paul have defied us thrice". Until now, we've seen how Paul hates musicals and hates "Tickle me Wiggly". If the greater villains of TGWDLM and Black Friday are directly related, or even are the same thing, then I can see why Paul is so important for them.
I have a theory: Paul was infected from the beginning, which is why they never attack Paul, only try breaking his will, and why we see him start singing by the meteor without first dying or consuming blue shit. He is just able to resist long enough to try and sacrifice himself thanks to his dislike of musicals.
@@VantaDrawsTed was turned by getting a blue light shined into his mouth, before Paul started singing the infected started to dance around him putting their hand near his mouth, so may it was like a contact high 🤷♀️
The cops running away I think is a tactical decision not to get Sam captured but instead preservation of the cops, at this point not all the citizens of Hatchetfield are part of the hive and since they have no visible scars they look normal so they are super disguised. The infected can be killed by guns and Charlotte is pointing Sam's pistol directly at a critical asset for the hive. Also explains why they want Bill to kill himself. They just got Alice and got the knowledge of what Bill did that morning, so while regular Alice knows that her Dad probably feels guilty about it they channel all the teenage angst into a song. Eliminates the shotgun because if Bill kills himself he is holding the shotgun thus eliminating it from play basically. So if your theory that they need to know Paul's desire to infect him is true then they also kill Bill to get more information on Paul. Remember in the opening scene in the office Bill talks about how Paul used to watch Alice for him? The hive also learned that when they infected Alice so Bill becomes a bigger asset. He might just be a nice guy but why did he do that, so through Bill they find Emma. Bill was cooling his jets after the kick your head incident and so probably heard Paul and Emma's heart to heart so unlike the staff at Beanies they actually pick up on the fact that Paul likes Emma. Later stories reveal she's a robot so they can't infect her. That's probably through Hidgens who is a biology professor so he might have seen some discrepancies. So Emma is in danger so only hope is to lure him to the spores, The asteroid probably produce the only pure spores while infecting others only produces diluted spores likewise something like Sodium thiopental (truth serum) might be emitted in the pure spores that can't develop in the human hosts as it's consumed to keep the host under control. Alt theory is that this is just a giant play by the hive after they've taken over the world. The introduction of elements of the show during the opening number remind me of classical Greek theatre, also it makes the credit's sequence make more sense in context. All the audience members there are part of the hive at a great reenactment of victory festival like thing. So "Emma" is a hive member acting as Emma so her begging for her life is funny to the hive.
I am under the impression it is Stu and Greg. The “working boys” is autobiographical, about the Professors happiest times, before his paranoia reduces his quality of life (and beyond his glory days I’m pretty sure the Professor is in love with at least Chad if not all of them). The names were real, and Stu and Greg, already infected, were obvious hosts to send, ensuring that any remaining resistance the Professor had evaporated. Though I wonder if, meeting the human versions wouldn’t have been a disappointment to the Professor. Rare is the time you can ever go back. In that sense Greg and Stu were not real. I suspect the real versions, while perhaps having fond memories, had far less fixation on those days. The ones who came were everything the Professor could have hoped for, even into the singing and dancing! Right up to the disembowelment. Another thing to wonder is why the two they satisfied the most were the ones most violently killed. Perhaps the hive literally feeds off the satisfaction, and that much starts some kind of frenzy to directly infect a host from the inside…
@@cheyannegiles9772the whole hive is kinda puppeting corpses I mean? Ya know, “join us AND die”. Also Bill was killed by a gun without being fed the blue crap right after like Ted(who hadn’t died yet), so they are puppeteering his already dead body at the end. Dr. Hidgens’ friends were just less freshly dead
I am currently losing my mind over your theory about MacNamara already being infected when he meets Paul and it makes so much sense!!!!!!! Like I'm legitimately wondering how i never thought of that but I'm so glad you mentioned it! Holy fuck my dude
just a small note from 10:15 and overall note as well to add to your theory :) "you shall choke on your agony as you *beg for apotheosis*" this gives a good idea as to what his Want (albeit temporary Want) is for the hive. kinda. ill go into it in a comment when i finish the video edit: you said that his want is to be *happy*, whereas i believe it is paul's want to have a *happy life*. the core difference is he wants to live, he isn't aiming for heaven or a happy afterlife in whatever religion he may or may not believe in. he mentions that he "wants what anyone wants," and then lists qualities that create a standard "good life." it isn't a conscious Want, but it creates the overall image of what he Wants. i believe that is why the hive allows him to be more conscious than other infected. at the very least, the infected still have their core Wants and their histories. that's what makes them a character, not just part of the hive. but paul has more than that. he's conscious to *fight* the hive, and his song inevitable seems to have a stronger sense of contrast than other songs from the fully infected. how does the hive allow this? it sends him to the meteor, where instead of being killed like every other character, his consciousness is forced to be infected. he's alive, but infected. and he questions if this is how he can be happy. ultimately, paul too gets his want. a happy life. but his wants a further manipulated. he's happy- he's fake. he's alive- he's infected. but ultimately, he's got his happy life.
This theory just makes the line in Inevitable, "I'm still the man you trust" that much more chilling. The real Paul is still in there and is trying to convince Emma that he was finally brought some joy, and wanted her to join in the same way he has. I always thought it was the hive trying to manipulate her as well, since she and Paul hit it off so well, and they have the shared sort of a lack of concrete wants (Yeah, she wants to start a pot farm, and it was only after getting the deed to the land in Colorado that the hive pounced). For most of the characters, it's after they requested a 'want' that they hone in. I've never realized this before, and I've seen this musical about a good few dozen times now...I need to revise a few theories...
One of the creatures from the Black and White is called "The One Voice" or something similar, and is characterized as having a cracked mask from which, blue ooze is pouring out. It's not only intentional that it is similar to Black Friday's way of doing things, it's the entire point. Black Friday and TGWDLM were both about the same group of entities trying to control people, in different ways.
I think it’s funny, I theorized after my 100th watching of this musical that “want” plays a big part of both musicals but is often manipulated by the lords of black. Especially when you listen to the nightmare time stories. I’m so excited for Nerdy prudes must die to see where they go next.
I love this analysis! Something I've often wondered is why the hive infects some living people and kills others before infecting them -- is it the strength of their desires? the strength of their characters? their ties to other people? their usefulness in assimilating others, and thus the need to keep them visibly intact? Your breakdown has my brain happily buzzing ^__^
Interesting question. I also have similar questions. Like "Join us and die". Why join AND die? Why not join OR die? Or just join? Or just die? It seems like death is an important part of the process to them for some reason. They did kind of imply they were going to eat some of them. Maybe that has to do with it? Food source?
Every single characte that we see infected(but paul) dies before. I feel like it's a necessary for the person to die to be fully infected. The only person we see get infected while still alive is paul- and he had to stand a few feet from the literal source of the infection. And he was still struggling the whole time. Of course, we have to take in count the fact that it was paul, the one person they didn't manage to infect throughout the whole musical, but I think it also involves the fact that he was alive. His clear physical reaction (or as the captions say, "dry heaving") could not have come solely from inner conflict. Even when we can say he is infected, he's still enough in control to "destroy" the meteor. Then he, inevitably(no pun intended), dies. What makes the hive able to take complete control of him.
12:18 well it could be, seems most people in Hatchefield stay there their whole lives, it could be Stu and Greg for all we know, just infected, Hidgens isn't completely delusional despite his flamboyance and naivete
Before I go in and listen I want to put my cold take here: My impression of the show personally, out of many interpretations this show yields, is a critique of capitalism and how it trickles down and infects culture and infrastructure. E.g., being forced to act happy or perform socializing in a job, “yeah we’re cops and * sarcastic * we make sense”, being coerced into subscribing to the bootstraps western idea of happiness that you have a want, you force it to come to you, then you’re happy. Paul may have some issues with anxiety or not stepping into the things he does really want; like asking out the cute little barista, but propping up this idea of happiness in answer to that sort of vague conflict doesn’t fix the issue. He would still be himself in a relationship with Emma, and it would be unfair and unrealistic to expect she would provide all of his fulfillment in life. I do like this musical better because it comes off less like military propaganda and it feels like a more nuanced criticism of culture, as much as I did enjoy Black Friday. I think it’s easier for people to say “I do wear a watch, and I don’t buy lots of extra stuff, it was awesome when General MC prescribed military bravery and guns in his funny voice to fixing the main physical threat” versus being able to claim they’ve deconstructed their deep seated ideals about how happiness and success work that have been instilled in them since birth. I’ll come back for better readability and an edit.
So I’m a few years late to everyone’s theory crafting but I will say that I think Join Us and Die is specifically directed at breaking everyone’s hope of safety and survival, especially Ted. The Hive targets him during it, makes him come face to face with Charlotte’s eviscerated singing corpse and removes any reasonable possibility that she could be revived. Pruning the wants they can’t provide and bringing others to the front, as it were. Edit! You mentioned the infected McNamara theory literally two seconds after I hit enter I’m just going to cut that ramble.
I thought that they targeted Ted during the song because Charlotte was having an affair with him, and if her Want is to reconcile with Sam, they would beat up her side piece (since Zoey and any other of Sam's "Charlottes" are not there). Very stretchy theory but the "kicking your ass" lines could also reference Ted and Bill's fight about what to kick.
Interesting analysis! I was taking screenwriting right after TGWDLM came out and I kept thinking back to Paul any time our professor would talk about character wants.
now after npmd and nightmare time, this theory fits so well w how the lords in black work in general "Whatever we want we want we want Whatever we want we get Whatever you want you want you want Forever in our debt"
YES also with like nibblinephims power in honey queen being about how much someone wants something, and bliklotep getting bill to attack his daughter by manipulating his own want.
i'd 100% be interested in an expanded video essay covering the updated lore in the hatchetfield saga. like, what we know about the lore now of this fun lil musical series and the running theme of Want throughout the entire series so far, because it's very much present and really makes you THINK about the implications of it all ;)
i love smart starkids!! i never even realised that wanting was such a core theme, i knew on the surface but theres so much i never even thought about, so thank you!
this was such a good essay!! i picked up (and loved) paul’s character want being a theme but i didn’t realise how thorough the hive was with manipulating the side characters’ wants as well ahh!! also both tgwdlm and black friday discuss false promises of happiness (thru consumerism/conformity) and wants (less meta than tgwdlm but black friday has “should i never have wanted??” and the twist on “what tim wants”). wonder if these themes r gonna run thru the whole trilogy :00 would love more analysis if so
While I can't say why it took her so long to be infected, I do think her wants are pretty well established. She primarily wants to feel like she can achieve something, as shown when she talks about her sister, Jane, while she was growing up, she never had her life together. So she's now trying to actually make something of herself by studying botany. Another want she seems to have, which isn't as concrete, is her wanting to get out of Hatchetfield, but this one is a pretty general want with no real end goal except just leaving. By the end of the musical, it seems like she has developed a want to be with Paul, personally, I believe that this extends out to her family as well, as she doesn't appear to be close to them and in Black Friday, she even states that she hasn't been around Tom a lot since Jane's death, and the song Inevitable works to both push on her fears that she is alone, and that there is no way to escape while also trying to manipulate her relationship with Paul, specifically shown through Paul singing that "He's still the man she trusts", and acting as if he willing chose this path to try and draw Emma along with him.
Honestly I figured some of the songs were unnecessary. Like "We're great again". Much as I love digs like that, it didn't seem to contribute all that much to plot/characters (which isn't necessary but still.) But hearing you dissect the songs explains so much!
I love this analysis!! I never knew any of this! I just liked the musical for the in depth character development, the great comedy, and catchy songs. Could you do a similar video like this on Black Friday? I personally didn’t enjoy it as much (I just couldn’t connect to any of the characters as well, and I kept comparing it to TGWDLM, and they just weren’t the same in my opinion) but maybe I’d like it more if I new the meta details like there were in TGWDLM? If there even are any that are as insane and as well embedded as this one?
I still want to know what exactly happened with the meteor and why that plan didn't seem to work at all. They never really explain it and just leave it as "Oh he blew them and himself up.. " and then right after "now he's one of them because reasons".
idk for sure but my theory is that the infection can maybe regenerate them? i mean i rebuilds them from the inside out so it wouldnt be impossible to just rebuild them from bits of dna or chunks of flesh, right? or maybe in that final moment, they got their protagonist, and pokey like leveled up in power, which allowed him more options than just kill and infect. Maybe the main character once made became the new host/head for the hive?
I love this so much, I'd noticed a lot of this, some was new, but you put it together so effectively. It's amazing to see it all so cohesive. Especially the connection to Black Friday. Thank you!
One of the best TGWDLM video essays that I've seen, if not the best one. A lot have a bunch of fluff explaining the plot piece by piece and not really going further than that, so this is a very good breath of fresh air.
When my friends first introduced me to Starkid this year after I saw a clip of Max Jagerman, we started with TGWDLM, I theorized near immediately upon learning about the hive that Paul would be resistant but didn’t think about the Want part, just that he didn’t like musicals 😂 loved this theory!!!
Dude I was thinking something very similar! I noticed the repetition of the idea of wanting something, but I couldn’t quite piece it together. This is amazing!!
This is a great video! Clear and consise, with good editing and funny quips. Great job!! There was even new thought for me, haha, and that's rare in Starkid fantheory lore
alright first of all i am So sorry for showing up this late to the party- but i guess youtube's algorithm has discovered that i've recently become a starkid mark and so i'm getting recs for all the good good content- but that's a great essay! i really like the underlining of how the hive uses Want as a lever to figure people out, and consequently infect them. also, the fact that we heard so much about what paul Doesn't Want and only twice hear about what he wants, both immediately followed by two attempts to sing about that want At him until he bends. fascinating! OUGHHHH the TRAGEDY of it all - the, just, the like, 100% completionism 'how to make paul's own personal little hell'. forced to participate! doing something super awkward and public in a musical! heroic sacrifice was pointless!! betraying and infecting emma! just keep piling it on, why don't you! smdkjsdksjdksjdkj i do disagree on one point- i don't think hidgens is actually projecting in Workin' Boys. in my opinion, 'stu' and 'greg' showing up are aspects of his love for musical theatre - his personal want was to see his musical being performed! (... with him as the charming lead!) when the two of them show up, hidgens is saying the lines in his script - he was happy because they are 'playing along', performing the parts he wrote for them.
YEARS late, but my personal theory is that the meteor had nothing to do with the hive mind, it was just a cover that they used to trap paul somewhere. There were no spores, but it was simply the hive making paul question what he wants that made him susceptible. I think let it out is purely paul "letting out" what he truly wants, and i think the most telling thing is this line: "is my integrity worth anything at all? *But* happiness can't come before it's fall." I think the hive is voicing thoughts paul already has. He never actually hated musicals as much as he said, its just something hes made a part of him over the years. he wants to be happy, but he is afraid of change, of his "integrity" going away, and so as the hive is finding out what he wants, they voice the doubts he already has, that whats keeping him from being happy is his integrity, which is true, i would say (what i mean by this is he can only start feeling happy if he lets his guard down to people), but paul is realizing this too late as a hive mind is infecting him and he is losing free will. So while the hive is manipulating his want into something else, paul is still getting what he wants, in a creepy twisted way, but he does. Rephrasing the line from before makes it pretty clear that these are his own thoughts the hive is using: "I've never been happy, wouldn't that be nice? Is this the secret? Singing and dancing through life? Is my integrity worth anything at all *IF* happiness can't come before it's fall?"
Just found this video and think its amazing!!! I've never thought about tgwdlm from this perspective. Hope your doing good :D Sincerely, - Random person on the Internet
I personal think that the hive wanted everyone to be the protagonist, and most people where much more receptive, requiring less effort, then once infected they can fall into the backdrop of the collective causing the perception that Paul is the protagonist tothe viewer
Ok, first of all: Zombie movies, which is what the guy who didnt like musicals is parodying, used to be parodies of capitalism, which is what black friday is parodying. Second ot all: the apo-virus has evolved into becoming one with their human hosts due to a lack of people to infect, which exploding their collective mind has made them go towards faster. In black friday they have blue lighting in all songs.
I have a theory, and its kinda out there, but I don't fully trust General Macnamara. Something about him setting the final pieces in motion, both in tgwdlm by sending Paul back to the hive/Pokey and in bf by sending the president into the black and white which almost immediately set off ww3, just seems off to me. Its giving double agent vibes, especially when considering the head to toe black uniform. Maybe thats just me though.
I'd like to address the comment that Working Boys is based on Hidgens' past. I agree, but it looks like your reasoning is that he says "Greg, you haven't aged a day." But Hidgens also said, on the phone, "Last week feels like ages ago." They graduated and entered the Business World one week ago, of course he hasn't aged a day lmao I also got the feeling that Hidgens was still going along with his musical, at least half knowing that it was actually the hive but because he wants the musical to be real so badly he's willing to pretend until it becomes real (for him)
Just a point to consider: Your akward, insecure intro is not doing you any favours in my opinion, it really undersells the eloquent and insightful points you make throughout the video. I almost clicked away, but I'm so glad I stayed :) Just own it, be confident, I think that would work better for you. I feel like the first ten seconds of the video should be representative the entire thing, and this intro is counterproductive :) You had so many good points that I hadn't even considered. Excellent essay!
Hold on cause this explanation is a bit wild but bear with me. So the apotheosis was caused by an interdimensional being called Pokey. Pokey is kinda the same as Wiggly in Black Friday, they’re actually siblings I believe. And Hatchetfield has multiple universes, so something can happen in one timeline and not the other. And Wiggly, Pokey and the other Lords of Black exist in all of the universes simultaneously. There are theories about certain things, people and events being constant in the different versions of Hatchetfield but that’s a whole other thing. So the Paul and Emma in Black Friday are a different version of the same characters who just got together in a normal way.
They probably wanted Paul as their protagonist because his name is in the title. ;D lol No, honestly, it's most likely because he's boring and normal, completely average, an everyman like Keanu Reeves in almost all of his roles, without any distinguishing features or backstory or anything that can alienate people from self-inserting. He's actually a perfect candidate for being a main character that has a huge revelation or change or even a heroic climax. Basically he's generic enough to be a the perfect protagonist. Just like every Harem anime ever has their kirito clone MC.
"he realizes what he wants and immediately has to sacrifice it..."
NPMD:
"We just want what you charish most..."
imo the hive wanted paul specifically because he was the most difficult to get. if they can get the guy who doesn't want anything, the guy who doesn't like musicals, then they can get anyone. which is why when they finally do get him, he's LEADING the hive (see; the rest of the hive following and mimicking paul's moves in inevitable). he's a trophy, in a sense.
Omg, trophy Paul...
the ultimate trophy husband
Boxman infected paul is a malewife confirmed
Who wouldn't want Paul as a trophy?
it does sound like the hive is personally offended that he doesn't like Musicals in the title song
Excuse you, Emma’s actual want is to start a pot farm.
Only if the damned babies dont come out of the marijuana.
I wanted a blunt, but now i have a child
Or... or... this is the want of original Emma, but not android Emma...
Perkys buds, the best weed in hatchetfield
@@orencohen9635 Can Emdroid actually get high?
Now THIS is the real deep question@@B.E.N_
Imagine if Paul's want literally was just "a cup of black coffee" and he proceeds to get sold by the "Cup of Roasted Coffee"
Paul literally “becomes” a main protagonist
WHAT PAUL WANTS
PAUL WILL GEEEEEEET
Anything that he wants he will have iiiiiiiiiitttt
@@lillianditomasso4241 All I need is some tiiiiiiiimmmee
what paul wants paul will get
anything that he wants he can h-
Okay, but I actually sang that and now I want to hear the song but about Paul lmao.
He never liked songs
Always tried to avoid them
At every cost
The fact he hates them so much
Is no accident it seems to me
Emma was the cause of it
I always thought that Paul's main "Want" is for it to stop being a musical, which drives him to the meteor, where he gets infected. I really like your analysis!
Yeah, he literally states that “and I, will not be in a fucking musical.” Before going to the meteor
The way that I watched the musical was that Paul was missing something. He wasn’t aware of it, but he was missing something. And I thought that the thing he was missing was engagement in life. He didn’t have anything to engage him. And he couldn’t push himself to ask Emma out. So then the Hive comes in and they try to push him into being engaged and asking Emma out. They already knew all about Paul. That’s why they chose Paul to be the main character in their show. The opening number is the Aliens telling the audience their plan and why they’re doing what they’re doing. And by the end, Paul HAS connected to Emma. It’s just that now the only way for them to stay connected is to be in the Hive.
Obviously, you bring up a ton of good points regarding what Paul's true wants are, and he may have multiple, but when you mentioned trying to use the things that Paul doesn't to find out what he does want, I realized something. The whole point of the Want is to drive the plot forward. What drives the plot of the musical forward? It could just be a basic will to survive, but I think it's really Paul avoiding the hive, or more specifically, being in a musical. (thus his line "And I will never be in a f***ing musical.") One of the first things he does is decline an invitation to a musical. This is why it's in the title, and part of why the hive has such a hard time getting him to join them. This want is pretty specific to the situation/plot so it makes sense for Paul to have other wants that the hive can exploit.
I wholeheartedly agree. Ive felt for a while that a common thread in the Hatchetfield Shows seems to be the promise of happiness and how it is fundamentally a lie. In black friday it is happiness through consumption. While TGWDLM is more ambigous, but it is related to the societal promise of happiness through conformity. Or it could also be metacommentary on central conflict theory and how we've engrained as a society its promise of resolution and on our conflict (want) being central to the plot that is our lives
I just realized The Hive works similarly to the monster virus in the webtoon Sweet Home. and similarly the main character is a guy who can resist the virus by virtue of not having any wants (or rather, the only thing he wants to do is to die and that doesn't vibe with the monsters' motivation for mutating ppl)
10:17 It’s possible the hive is being fairly literal when they say Paul will “choke on [his] agony until [he] begs for apotheosis.” It’s a bit crude compared to their earlier attempts at manipulation, but forcing Paul into a situation where he *wants* the pain to end, i.e. wants to give in and become a part of the hive, could be enough of a concrete Want to let them actually infect him.
"I've never been happy
Wouldn't that be nice?"
During Paul's "transformation" (?) in Let It Out, it's clear to me that the hive wants Paul very specifically, to become a part of the musical by his own choice. Why is Paul so important for them? "You Paul have defied us thrice". Until now, we've seen how Paul hates musicals and hates "Tickle me Wiggly". If the greater villains of TGWDLM and Black Friday are directly related, or even are the same thing, then I can see why Paul is so important for them.
Directly related! 😊
I have a theory: Paul was infected from the beginning, which is why they never attack Paul, only try breaking his will, and why we see him start singing by the meteor without first dying or consuming blue shit. He is just able to resist long enough to try and sacrifice himself thanks to his dislike of musicals.
Any ideas on how he was infected in the first place with this theory?
@@VantaDraws That is the only thing I haven’t figured out
@@SuperBatSpider the coffee maybe?
@@VantaDrawsTed was turned by getting a blue light shined into his mouth, before Paul started singing the infected started to dance around him putting their hand near his mouth, so may it was like a contact high 🤷♀️
The cops running away I think is a tactical decision not to get Sam captured but instead preservation of the cops, at this point not all the citizens of Hatchetfield are part of the hive and since they have no visible scars they look normal so they are super disguised. The infected can be killed by guns and Charlotte is pointing Sam's pistol directly at a critical asset for the hive. Also explains why they want Bill to kill himself. They just got Alice and got the knowledge of what Bill did that morning, so while regular Alice knows that her Dad probably feels guilty about it they channel all the teenage angst into a song. Eliminates the shotgun because if Bill kills himself he is holding the shotgun thus eliminating it from play basically.
So if your theory that they need to know Paul's desire to infect him is true then they also kill Bill to get more information on Paul. Remember in the opening scene in the office Bill talks about how Paul used to watch Alice for him? The hive also learned that when they infected Alice so Bill becomes a bigger asset. He might just be a nice guy but why did he do that, so through Bill they find Emma. Bill was cooling his jets after the kick your head incident and so probably heard Paul and Emma's heart to heart so unlike the staff at Beanies they actually pick up on the fact that Paul likes Emma. Later stories reveal she's a robot so they can't infect her. That's probably through Hidgens who is a biology professor so he might have seen some discrepancies. So Emma is in danger so only hope is to lure him to the spores, The asteroid probably produce the only pure spores while infecting others only produces diluted spores likewise something like Sodium thiopental (truth serum) might be emitted in the pure spores that can't develop in the human hosts as it's consumed to keep the host under control.
Alt theory is that this is just a giant play by the hive after they've taken over the world. The introduction of elements of the show during the opening number remind me of classical Greek theatre, also it makes the credit's sequence make more sense in context. All the audience members there are part of the hive at a great reenactment of victory festival like thing. So "Emma" is a hive member acting as Emma so her begging for her life is funny to the hive.
I am under the impression it is Stu and Greg. The “working boys” is autobiographical, about the Professors happiest times, before his paranoia reduces his quality of life (and beyond his glory days I’m pretty sure the Professor is in love with at least Chad if not all of them). The names were real, and Stu and Greg, already infected, were obvious hosts to send, ensuring that any remaining resistance the Professor had evaporated. Though I wonder if, meeting the human versions wouldn’t have been a disappointment to the Professor. Rare is the time you can ever go back. In that sense Greg and Stu were not real. I suspect the real versions, while perhaps having fond memories, had far less fixation on those days. The ones who came were everything the Professor could have hoped for, even into the singing and dancing! Right up to the disembowelment.
Another thing to wonder is why the two they satisfied the most were the ones most violently killed. Perhaps the hive literally feeds off the satisfaction, and that much starts some kind of frenzy to directly infect a host from the inside…
Turns out they're canonically dead, so unless their corpses are being puppeted, it's unlikely
@@cheyannegiles9772the whole hive is kinda puppeting corpses I mean? Ya know, “join us AND die”. Also Bill was killed by a gun without being fed the blue crap right after like Ted(who hadn’t died yet), so they are puppeteering his already dead body at the end. Dr. Hidgens’ friends were just less freshly dead
I am currently losing my mind over your theory about MacNamara already being infected when he meets Paul and it makes so much sense!!!!!!! Like I'm legitimately wondering how i never thought of that but I'm so glad you mentioned it! Holy fuck my dude
just a small note from 10:15 and overall note as well to add to your theory :)
"you shall choke on your agony as you *beg for apotheosis*"
this gives a good idea as to what his Want (albeit temporary Want) is for the hive. kinda. ill go into it in a comment when i finish the video
edit:
you said that his want is to be *happy*, whereas i believe it is paul's want to have a *happy life*. the core difference is he wants to live, he isn't aiming for heaven or a happy afterlife in whatever religion he may or may not believe in. he mentions that he "wants what anyone wants," and then lists qualities that create a standard "good life." it isn't a conscious Want, but it creates the overall image of what he Wants. i believe that is why the hive allows him to be more conscious than other infected.
at the very least, the infected still have their core Wants and their histories. that's what makes them a character, not just part of the hive. but paul has more than that. he's conscious to *fight* the hive, and his song inevitable seems to have a stronger sense of contrast than other songs from the fully infected.
how does the hive allow this?
it sends him to the meteor, where instead of being killed like every other character, his consciousness is forced to be infected. he's alive, but infected. and he questions if this is how he can be happy.
ultimately, paul too gets his want. a happy life. but his wants a further manipulated. he's happy- he's fake. he's alive- he's infected. but ultimately, he's got his happy life.
This theory just makes the line in Inevitable, "I'm still the man you trust" that much more chilling. The real Paul is still in there and is trying to convince Emma that he was finally brought some joy, and wanted her to join in the same way he has. I always thought it was the hive trying to manipulate her as well, since she and Paul hit it off so well, and they have the shared sort of a lack of concrete wants (Yeah, she wants to start a pot farm, and it was only after getting the deed to the land in Colorado that the hive pounced). For most of the characters, it's after they requested a 'want' that they hone in. I've never realized this before, and I've seen this musical about a good few dozen times now...I need to revise a few theories...
omfg this gave me fuxking chills
One of the creatures from the Black and White is called "The One Voice" or something similar, and is characterized as having a cracked mask from which, blue ooze is pouring out.
It's not only intentional that it is similar to Black Friday's way of doing things, it's the entire point. Black Friday and TGWDLM were both about the same group of entities trying to control people, in different ways.
I believe his name is Pokotho, AKA Pokey.
Pokotho or Pokey is called "The Singular Voice" and is the most uncompromising Lord in Black. He despises every voice that is not his own.
Shit this is so interesting, I've watched TGWDLM so many times but I hadn't noticed half of this
I think it’s funny, I theorized after my 100th watching of this musical that “want” plays a big part of both musicals but is often manipulated by the lords of black. Especially when you listen to the nightmare time stories. I’m so excited for Nerdy prudes must die to see where they go next.
I love this analysis! Something I've often wondered is why the hive infects some living people and kills others before infecting them -- is it the strength of their desires? the strength of their characters? their ties to other people? their usefulness in assimilating others, and thus the need to keep them visibly intact? Your breakdown has my brain happily buzzing ^__^
Interesting question. I also have similar questions. Like "Join us and die". Why join AND die? Why not join OR die? Or just join? Or just die? It seems like death is an important part of the process to them for some reason. They did kind of imply they were going to eat some of them. Maybe that has to do with it? Food source?
Every single characte that we see infected(but paul) dies before. I feel like it's a necessary for the person to die to be fully infected. The only person we see get infected while still alive is paul- and he had to stand a few feet from the literal source of the infection. And he was still struggling the whole time. Of course, we have to take in count the fact that it was paul, the one person they didn't manage to infect throughout the whole musical, but I think it also involves the fact that he was alive. His clear physical reaction (or as the captions say, "dry heaving") could not have come solely from inner conflict. Even when we can say he is infected, he's still enough in control to "destroy" the meteor. Then he, inevitably(no pun intended), dies. What makes the hive able to take complete control of him.
12:18 well it could be, seems most people in Hatchefield stay there their whole lives, it could be Stu and Greg for all we know, just infected, Hidgens isn't completely delusional despite his flamboyance and naivete
Before I go in and listen I want to put my cold take here:
My impression of the show personally, out of many interpretations this show yields, is a critique of capitalism and how it trickles down and infects culture and infrastructure. E.g., being forced to act happy or perform socializing in a job, “yeah we’re cops and * sarcastic * we make sense”, being coerced into subscribing to the bootstraps western idea of happiness that you have a want, you force it to come to you, then you’re happy. Paul may have some issues with anxiety or not stepping into the things he does really want; like asking out the cute little barista, but propping up this idea of happiness in answer to that sort of vague conflict doesn’t fix the issue. He would still be himself in a relationship with Emma, and it would be unfair and unrealistic to expect she would provide all of his fulfillment in life.
I do like this musical better because it comes off less like military propaganda and it feels like a more nuanced criticism of culture, as much as I did enjoy Black Friday. I think it’s easier for people to say “I do wear a watch, and I don’t buy lots of extra stuff, it was awesome when General MC prescribed military bravery and guns in his funny voice to fixing the main physical threat” versus being able to claim they’ve deconstructed their deep seated ideals about how happiness and success work that have been instilled in them since birth.
I’ll come back for better readability and an edit.
Yeah same
Hey I love this musical and the "want" motif was not lost on me when watching it but you put into words so well!! I love it
So I’m a few years late to everyone’s theory crafting but I will say that I think Join Us and Die is specifically directed at breaking everyone’s hope of safety and survival, especially Ted. The Hive targets him during it, makes him come face to face with Charlotte’s eviscerated singing corpse and removes any reasonable possibility that she could be revived. Pruning the wants they can’t provide and bringing others to the front, as it were.
Edit! You mentioned the infected McNamara theory literally two seconds after I hit enter I’m just going to cut that ramble.
I thought that they targeted Ted during the song because Charlotte was having an affair with him, and if her Want is to reconcile with Sam, they would beat up her side piece (since Zoey and any other of Sam's "Charlottes" are not there). Very stretchy theory but the "kicking your ass" lines could also reference Ted and Bill's fight about what to kick.
This video made me understand TGWDLM so much better, it was so interesting to watch
Interesting analysis! I was taking screenwriting right after TGWDLM came out and I kept thinking back to Paul any time our professor would talk about character wants.
The first song is likely set just before "Let it out".
The reuse of Emma's actor confuses this though.
now after npmd and nightmare time, this theory fits so well w how the lords in black work in general
"Whatever we want we want we want
Whatever we want we get
Whatever you want you want you want
Forever in our debt"
YES also with like nibblinephims power in honey queen being about how much someone wants something, and bliklotep getting bill to attack his daughter by manipulating his own want.
i'd 100% be interested in an expanded video essay covering the updated lore in the hatchetfield saga. like, what we know about the lore now of this fun lil musical series and the running theme of Want throughout the entire series so far, because it's very much present and really makes you THINK about the implications of it all ;)
I loved this! I had never noticed this in TGWDLIM, Black Friday is much more on the nose
i cant believe this flew right over my head :0
i love smart starkids!! i never even realised that wanting was such a core theme, i knew on the surface but theres so much i never even thought about, so thank you!
This is super awesome! I haven't found many tgwdlm theories I liked, but this is amazing and I love the analysis and format!! Keep up the amazing work
this is so interesting omg i'm obsessed
this was such a good essay!! i picked up (and loved) paul’s character want being a theme but i didn’t realise how thorough the hive was with manipulating the side characters’ wants as well ahh!!
also both tgwdlm and black friday discuss false promises of happiness (thru consumerism/conformity) and wants (less meta than tgwdlm but black friday has “should i never have wanted??” and the twist on “what tim wants”). wonder if these themes r gonna run thru the whole trilogy :00 would love more analysis if so
This is my second favorite starkid show. I really love your theory!
I honestly didn't see this obvious thread, this video made me appreciate this show even more omg.
can you do a video on how emma comes into this? what are her Wants and why does she only get infected so late?
While I can't say why it took her so long to be infected, I do think her wants are pretty well established. She primarily wants to feel like she can achieve something, as shown when she talks about her sister, Jane, while she was growing up, she never had her life together. So she's now trying to actually make something of herself by studying botany. Another want she seems to have, which isn't as concrete, is her wanting to get out of Hatchetfield, but this one is a pretty general want with no real end goal except just leaving. By the end of the musical, it seems like she has developed a want to be with Paul, personally, I believe that this extends out to her family as well, as she doesn't appear to be close to them and in Black Friday, she even states that she hasn't been around Tom a lot since Jane's death, and the song Inevitable works to both push on her fears that she is alone, and that there is no way to escape while also trying to manipulate her relationship with Paul, specifically shown through Paul singing that "He's still the man she trusts", and acting as if he willing chose this path to try and draw Emma along with him.
Oh, Emma's easy. Her Want is to "not die in Hatchetfield". She dies just outside of Hatchetfield.
@@bigboi8028 well he almost did and he’s the only one who is infected without dying and he questions if he can be happy by accepting being infected
@@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice holy shit thats real fucked up XD
This is one of the most cohesive theories for this musical I've ever seen fantastic job
Honestly I figured some of the songs were unnecessary. Like "We're great again". Much as I love digs like that, it didn't seem to contribute all that much to plot/characters (which isn't necessary but still.) But hearing you dissect the songs explains so much!
I love this analysis!! I never knew any of this! I just liked the musical for the in depth character development, the great comedy, and catchy songs. Could you do a similar video like this on Black Friday? I personally didn’t enjoy it as much (I just couldn’t connect to any of the characters as well, and I kept comparing it to TGWDLM, and they just weren’t the same in my opinion) but maybe I’d like it more if I new the meta details like there were in TGWDLM? If there even are any that are as insane and as well embedded as this one?
I still want to know what exactly happened with the meteor and why that plan didn't seem to work at all.
They never really explain it and just leave it as "Oh he blew them and himself up.. " and then right after "now he's one of them because reasons".
idk for sure but my theory is that the infection can maybe regenerate them? i mean i rebuilds them from the inside out so it wouldnt be impossible to just rebuild them from bits of dna or chunks of flesh, right? or maybe in that final moment, they got their protagonist, and pokey like leveled up in power, which allowed him more options than just kill and infect.
Maybe the main character once made became the new host/head for the hive?
I love this so much, I'd noticed a lot of this, some was new, but you put it together so effectively. It's amazing to see it all so cohesive. Especially the connection to Black Friday. Thank you!
One of the best TGWDLM video essays that I've seen, if not the best one. A lot have a bunch of fluff explaining the plot piece by piece and not really going further than that, so this is a very good breath of fresh air.
When my friends first introduced me to Starkid this year after I saw a clip of Max Jagerman, we started with TGWDLM, I theorized near immediately upon learning about the hive that Paul would be resistant but didn’t think about the Want part, just that he didn’t like musicals 😂 loved this theory!!!
Dude I was thinking something very similar! I noticed the repetition of the idea of wanting something, but I couldn’t quite piece it together. This is amazing!!
Interesting analysis !
This is a great video! Clear and consise, with good editing and funny quips. Great job!! There was even new thought for me, haha, and that's rare in Starkid fantheory lore
Okay, how have I never even understood this before. I’ve seen this musical like at least 4 times and did not even put the “want” thing together. Wow.
this video is criminally underrated. i loved it, thank you for your theory❤
i cant start to explain how much i enjoyed this video
alright first of all i am So sorry for showing up this late to the party- but i guess youtube's algorithm has discovered that i've recently become a starkid mark and so i'm getting recs for all the good good content- but that's a great essay!
i really like the underlining of how the hive uses Want as a lever to figure people out, and consequently infect them. also, the fact that we heard so much about what paul Doesn't Want and only twice hear about what he wants, both immediately followed by two attempts to sing about that want At him until he bends. fascinating! OUGHHHH the TRAGEDY of it all - the, just, the like, 100% completionism 'how to make paul's own personal little hell'. forced to participate! doing something super awkward and public in a musical! heroic sacrifice was pointless!! betraying and infecting emma! just keep piling it on, why don't you! smdkjsdksjdksjdkj
i do disagree on one point- i don't think hidgens is actually projecting in Workin' Boys. in my opinion, 'stu' and 'greg' showing up are aspects of his love for musical theatre - his personal want was to see his musical being performed! (... with him as the charming lead!) when the two of them show up, hidgens is saying the lines in his script - he was happy because they are 'playing along', performing the parts he wrote for them.
"really bad at making fan theories" my ass this was amazing
This is the definition of an underrated channel! Keep doing what your doing!
This made me happy
YEARS late, but my personal theory is that the meteor had nothing to do with the hive mind, it was just a cover that they used to trap paul somewhere. There were no spores, but it was simply the hive making paul question what he wants that made him susceptible. I think let it out is purely paul "letting out" what he truly wants, and i think the most telling thing is this line:
"is my integrity worth anything at all? *But* happiness can't come before it's fall."
I think the hive is voicing thoughts paul already has. He never actually hated musicals as much as he said, its just something hes made a part of him over the years. he wants to be happy, but he is afraid of change, of his "integrity" going away, and so as the hive is finding out what he wants, they voice the doubts he already has, that whats keeping him from being happy is his integrity, which is true, i would say (what i mean by this is he can only start feeling happy if he lets his guard down to people), but paul is realizing this too late as a hive mind is infecting him and he is losing free will.
So while the hive is manipulating his want into something else, paul is still getting what he wants, in a creepy twisted way, but he does.
Rephrasing the line from before makes it pretty clear that these are his own thoughts the hive is using:
"I've never been happy, wouldn't that be nice?
Is this the secret? Singing and dancing through life?
Is my integrity worth anything at all *IF* happiness can't come before it's fall?"
Amazing. I loved this so much. Very iconic. All that. Sorry it's 1am I have no coherent thoughts but you clearly do and they're very good
Well, this gives a whole new meaning to the "I want song" XD.
Hatchetfeild trilogy? I only know of tgwdlm and black Friday, what's the third one?
The third musical isn't done yet, it's called 'Nerdy Prudes Must Die'
This is so good
Great video! Loved this play
Just found this video and think its amazing!!! I've never thought about tgwdlm from this perspective.
Hope your doing good :D
Sincerely, - Random person on the Internet
I personal think that the hive wanted everyone to be the protagonist, and most people where much more receptive, requiring less effort, then once infected they can fall into the backdrop of the collective causing the perception that Paul is the protagonist tothe viewer
Ok, first of all:
Zombie movies, which is what the guy who didnt like musicals is parodying, used to be parodies of capitalism, which is what black friday is parodying.
Second ot all: the apo-virus has evolved into becoming one with their human hosts due to a lack of people to infect, which exploding their collective mind has made them go towards faster. In black friday they have blue lighting in all songs.
Great video. The Hatchetfield musicals aren't my favorite by any means, but this showed up in my recommended videos and I decided to give it a watch.
This was really good! It was really put together!
Pokotho God of Space Cum
Brilliant take. I missed a lot of this 😊
I have a theory, and its kinda out there, but I don't fully trust General Macnamara. Something about him setting the final pieces in motion, both in tgwdlm by sending Paul back to the hive/Pokey and in bf by sending the president into the black and white which almost immediately set off ww3, just seems off to me. Its giving double agent vibes, especially when considering the head to toe black uniform. Maybe thats just me though.
tbf the other cops left after Sam's gun was stolen and they were threatened with it
I'd like to address the comment that Working Boys is based on Hidgens' past. I agree, but it looks like your reasoning is that he says "Greg, you haven't aged a day."
But Hidgens also said, on the phone, "Last week feels like ages ago."
They graduated and entered the Business World one week ago, of course he hasn't aged a day lmao
I also got the feeling that Hidgens was still going along with his musical, at least half knowing that it was actually the hive but because he wants the musical to be real so badly he's willing to pretend until it becomes real (for him)
This is wonderful
Really fun great video!
Help I thought the thumbnail said “What Paul Wants (and why it’s your mother)😭
The absence of passion
Just a point to consider: Your akward, insecure intro is not doing you any favours in my opinion, it really undersells the eloquent and insightful points you make throughout the video. I almost clicked away, but I'm so glad I stayed :)
Just own it, be confident, I think that would work better for you. I feel like the first ten seconds of the video should be representative the entire thing, and this intro is counterproductive :)
You had so many good points that I hadn't even considered. Excellent essay!
great video! but if Paul and Emma were infected, weren't they totally fine in the beginning of Black Friday?
Hold on cause this explanation is a bit wild but bear with me. So the apotheosis was caused by an interdimensional being called Pokey. Pokey is kinda the same as Wiggly in Black Friday, they’re actually siblings I believe. And Hatchetfield has multiple universes, so something can happen in one timeline and not the other. And Wiggly, Pokey and the other Lords of Black exist in all of the universes simultaneously. There are theories about certain things, people and events being constant in the different versions of Hatchetfield but that’s a whole other thing. So the Paul and Emma in Black Friday are a different version of the same characters who just got together in a normal way.
thanks for the explanation that answers pretty much every other question i had in NPMD, appreciate the reply@@a.g.r1350
thanks for the explanation that answers pretty much every other question i had in NPMD, appreciate the reply@@a.g.r1350
They probably wanted Paul as their protagonist because his name is in the title. ;D lol
No, honestly, it's most likely because he's boring and normal, completely average, an everyman like Keanu Reeves in almost all of his roles, without any distinguishing features or backstory or anything that can alienate people from self-inserting. He's actually a perfect candidate for being a main character that has a huge revelation or change or even a heroic climax. Basically he's generic enough to be a the perfect protagonist. Just like every Harem anime ever has their kirito clone MC.
Can someone help me please?? The question is how does the play relate to you as an individual?
i loved the video! hope you continue to analyze the hatchetfield trilogy 🩵