Religion is Not Reducible to Psychology | Jordan Peterson & Jonathan Pageau
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- Опубликовано: 13 апр 2021
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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Season 4 Episode 8: Jonathan Pageau: • The Perfect Mode of Be...
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"You're either aiming at Christ or something lower." I love that.
Both Jonathan and Jordan were instrumental in me returning to Christianity 🙏
I needed this. Heading to church this saturday, after a while since last time. God bless!
As much as Pageau makes fun of "I always bring up chairs", when he put it directly next to "all of humanity striving towards the highest point of Christ", it really clicked.
Truly, the highest principle is Love.
A thing is only a thing when it is held in relationship to another thing
The most important thing to realize is that we can *never* become Christ-like without the Spirit of God working in and through us...
Only God can change us back into His image and likeness, the way he originally created Adam.
Johnathan, for a young man, you can understand where narrative leads. Thank you for the respect that you show for Jordan Peterson....
Lewis' basic answer regarding the 'why' raised here is regarding the fundamental longings we all have within us, which relate to reality, hence, thirst exists to be quenched, so, to refer to Pascal, there is a longing, a 'hole' within us that only God can fulfil, and that fulfillment is evidenced, amongst us, in God becoming flesh.
Jordan is almost there, he can see it but for some reason he will not step across. He will. Christ is gathering.
He s so close is painful to watch, I feel this very human need to give him a push, but that's not how God works... :) Jonathan is so good at just shinning a light...that is all we can do.... and pray...
Maybe God needs him to stand at the threshold and hold the door open for others for awhile first. Doctor Peterson played an important role in my becoming Orthodox, and seems to be doing the same for thousands of men.
He's an American Pragmatist, so he has to change quite a bit of his framework to "really" get there. I hope he does.
For me returning to Christ, it was in gradual steps that took over a year.
First was the death of my mom, which caused me to do some soul searching on life & death. Then I became more spiritual, but also researched the science that made me realize this wasn’t all mumbo jumbo. Then I started seeking more intensely and tried different beliefs that were more mystical in nature.
I came to realize that all of them have much in common, so I returned to my Catholic upbringing after realizing there was a rich mystical tradition. But still, I had doubts that Jesus was truly the one. Why not also Buddha and Krishna?
So I then started Catholic Bible study and looking into mostly Catholic and Orthodox discussions & podcasts regarding myths & symbols.
When I started doing this, I also began daily prayers and weekly or more masses. Slowly over a couple years, my faith has really strengthened and now I have no doubt.
I think Jordan is on the slow path. I believe either he or Tammy said they were praying now. Hopefully, he and his family will find the light of God soon.
@@DennisCNolasco It takes a while to get it. I became what i thought a Christian was 30 years ago and only 2 years ago I got it. Maybe i still haven't. Now i wouldn't changeback for anything.
You had me at "Against individualism"
Aiming at ideals is empowering exclusively through intermediary aims. Claiming "link" to an ideal without examing the quality and steps in such a link is vicious. Virtue is research. Belief is but a thesis: loving one you get wrongly is love of an image; not love of the what one expects it to represent. The search is more enlightening than any map, no matter how much one enshrines it. Sacredness is but a tool of teaching. Learning is the actions of tool rebuilding. At each beginning: there is verb, not noun-names.
Thanks, this is a helpful comment
Thanks Jonathan
I was reading the book of Hebrews this morning and meditating on angels vs. Jesus and the hierarchy of heaven. This pairs nicely with my study.
Pageau seems so happy in this conversation
Polishing stone, crushing stone, cornerstone.
Which is why even Superman needs Lois Lane.
Well now it can be with Jay too, it seems…
I followed the algorithm to this video from your conversation with Rationality Rules and just noticed you're wearing the same shirt lmao
The problem with communitarianism is when the community fails you.
Yeah that's why we have the symbol or archetype of the jester/fool. Lone people can do well to point out the iniquity of the collective and reform it from the brink where the fringe and the center meet.
@@aramkaizer7903 Am waiting for that jester to appear as we speak. Unfortunately, not many of those in the authoritarian country I live in, or would I take on that role myself.
So I guess I'm going to settle on being an individualist for now.
There is another community that is worldwide. A community of believers who because they know they are sinners, put their faith and trust in our risen Lord.
There is a strong connection among believers because of our faith.
Maybe though sinful and imperfect at best, this community can be your community as well.
Community on the lowest level is as transcendent as at the largest level. Your family or your friends or your village or street will be your community if you make it. If they have bad culture or beliefs, focus on other things you can join around that are good. The Almighty wishes for you to be his friend.
3:27 Even the ubermensch benefits from a community
God bless
Time is running Jordan, precious time. Go to Christ!
I'm not a Muslim. Those talks about worship and submission reminded me of Islam. Don't know what to make of it
Where do you guys think Jordan is at in his thinking about religion? Almost there?
I'm not sure he's ever going to outright be a Christian the way 99% of Christiana are, hes more of a reformer.
He then went to reduce religion to psychology
The so-called Gnostics were a diverse bunch, not all of them viewed the world as "utterly fallen"... and many were non-dualists themselves (Valentinus)... They just happened to lose out historically to the more literal-minded, who became the mainstream, and turned them into "heretics". These so-called Gnostics could worship Jesus as the Messiah without the "manifesting itself concretely in reality" part. The 'literal' part of the story was an introduction not the essence.
Dare I imagine comments which say something like, "Oh, Jonathan knows so much, why does he need this mind-warping literal objective element, with just a little push he could get beyond it and see the REAL light!?"
That would be a little stomach-churning, but so is all sanctimony.
Huh - Matrix quote I believe comes to my mind, as I always had problem with incarnation.
It's impossible.
But it's inevitable. 😅🤯👍🙏
I never heard where they prove that religion is not reducible to psychology.
Psychology is the study of mind and behvior of the human and animals. Therefero it describe, predicte, and control these. Psychology can't explain other issues: like the sens of the life, why humans exists, the later life, etc.
And the world shall worship the image of the beast and the dragon…
I wish I could just say to Jordan: look there's two realities both created by something completely impossible. One where everything came into being from nothing for no reason what so ever; a world that everything is arbitrary and has no pattern and everything is random BUT is some how highly ordered just by a kind of mere fluke of chance. Or a world that Was created by an all knowing all loving being that then came to save your life adopt you into his family give you an eternal life in a place so perfect we had to make a word for it (heaven) and glorify you. But if you analyze that; the one gives the other reason. It explains how and why the universe came into being. why its highly ordered and how nothing became something. So there you go choose between the impossibilities. But do take this into account when you choose one makes everything makes sense and the other is completely nihilistic and empty.
The why is theosis
*G* *N* *O* *S* *I* *S*
The path of individuation.
Ichthys restores through aion.
6:03 Dr. Peterson, I didn’t know why either, why do we need Christ? I prayed and asked God to show me...and he did, and you’re right- it’s absolutely terrifying!
Our utmost righteousness is like rags and the wisest among us are fools in comparison to the ideal. That is because we are broken at the core and you know (to a degree) what lurks in the depths of the shadow of every person.
We, despite our best efforts, are all born slaves to the Serpent, the most malevolent master. But, two thousand years ago the ultimately perfect, innocent man received the ultimate punishment, and in doing so of his own volition he conquered death once and for all - he paid off our bond to the Serpent so we can be set free. It’s already been done, since the temple veil was torn in two!
And all we have to do, the only thing we actually can do, is simply believe that it’s true and decide to become a slave to the most benevolent master, our loving Father in Heaven who loves us.
It doesn’t cost you anything and you couldn’t cover the bill even if wanted to. Just believe and pick up your damn cross Dr. Peterson! He’s waiting for you. The suffering you have been experiencing is no accident, you’re Jonah in the belly of the whale right now. You have no idea what you would do for the world if you realized that the story is the Truth! 🥲
Pray and ask God with all your heart to open your eyes and show you so you can see for yourself. And then watch out bucko! It’s going to be a heck of a ride 🙂
Dr. Peterson, please contact me, I have a story that you need to hear. Your Biblical lectures probably saved my mortal life and ultimately led to the saving of my immortal soul. I’d like to return the favor. 🙏🏻
Mr. Pageau, I beg you to forward this to JP or contact me first to vet me.
JBP - turns off video
Yep. You can't psychologize that which hasn't come into existence yet, because it's not a scientific category. It's not psychological, it's magical. Using attention to pull a future towards us.
The question is, what future? A future characterized by what? Hopefully the best thing.
I've yet to have anyone show me that their version of the best thing is actually deserving of a priority of attention over everything else. Easy to sell to people who have already bit your fishing hook, but when judging the future of the world, you can't have the judge, jury, victim, and executioner be the same person. That was the main plight of the protestant reformation, and that led directly to the enlightenment mess we are still in. If you want to prioritize jesus, you can't justify it in jesus' name. You need an objective framework outside of christianity to set your priorities if you want to make it a fair trial.
People talk so bold about Bible but they no even read righlty Genesis enough to see that there are many Gods there... How can we discuss the matter of the book Evil Religions Unmasked with them?
The Holy Trinity.
@@St.Raphael... There's really no proof that it's the holy trinity. I agree that that is what we're told by theologians and educated Christians but when I've asked further, it ultimately seems to be an assumption with no clear textual link.
@@dragonfriend6874 asked further...to whom?
You can keep staring into the abyss but the abyss stares back ;)
@@St.Raphael... The pastor at my church was the most accessible person I could talk about this topic with so...
@@dragonfriend6874...so it is your “Pastor” leading you into the abyss...
...Or your own admiration for doubt ;)?!