That's hilarious! I kept getting compared to this guy for my mild atheistic views on Christianity... Then discovered there's a spiderman actor of the same name.
So glad this is public. I have wanted this conversation for years. I have internalized a lot of both of your work. This is a dream. 17 year old me could have used this...
I truly hope the church listens to the yearning within the culture for a return to everything that Christianity once meant to ordinary people. It has spent too long bowing to its own embarrassment and fear of offending people that through the attempt to not be 'weird' or off-putting, it has forgotten the sublime truth and perfect beauty that Christ alone offers.
Dominion is a great book! I learned a lot, and it gave me many new insights. I just started In the Shadow of the Sword, after which I‘ll have read all of Holland’s books so far. Great writer!
what started out slow turned into an excellent discussion. christianity is ultimately a revealed religion but any time someone attempts to make an historical or academic analysis of the religion proper or the new testament they cannot help, it seems, but to apply a kind of inductive perspective to it; thus, paul is no longer receiving revelation from christ so much as he's making some kind of intellectual discovery, beginning with a kind of holy insight within from which he has to explore the depths of his own reason and psychology to unravel the final form of the thought process. while these kinds of perspectives can be interesting, so much holy, transformative content is lost by assuming a position where christianity is just another thought system inductively pursued by the mind of man.
Great discussion, wonderful book and now looking forward to the PVK commentary! When JBP is able I would love to hear a discussion with all three of you!
Would love to hear you guys do this again sometime. I think theres a lot you guys could talk about and this felt more like an extended introduction to each others ideas.
Dear Tom.... Get a camera and a mic!! And I can't get enough of listening to him, Jonathan and conversations like this! Although I never heard Jonathan talk so little (relatively) in a video ;)
@@Coheirs2Heaven Thank you for bringing this to my attention, but the way I see it today, it would seem his are not the only views that appear flawed. Catholicism is, to the best of my knowledge, not equal to Christianity, but a branch of it. A major one, yes, but still only one of the many.
I've read most (not all) of Holland's book to date, and loved them all. This was a fabulous discussion. Jonathan Pageau and Tom Holland? Wow. Seriously, where else can you get content like this?
Loved this. Man I wish Tom had written about the orthodox church! Him not mentioning it in Dominion was kind of the only (minor) letdown i got from an otherwise beautiful book.
I think the lack of appeal of secular humanism is also demonstrated by the life story of Leo Tolstoy. He rejected the divine aspects of Christ, but embraced the moral teachings of Christ and aimed to frame those moral teachings in a secular humanist context. He also turned it into a movement and developed a following dedicated to his teachings on non-violence. However, his following quickly dissipated and I do think it's because his teachings lacked a central myth holding his movement together. What's even more interesting is that among the people who were inspired by Tolstoy are Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. They found his teachings on non-violence very appealing, but reframed them in a religious context, for Gandhi a Hindu context and for MLK a Christian context. And it's exactly as Tom said, this led to near universal acceptance of MLK's civil rights movement and is still admired today, while almost nobody remembers that Tolstoy did more than just write novels.
Poor tom, I think he was a bit out of his depth with what Jonathan was wanting to pull him into lol. Still just a little early in his religious journey, as he sort of admitted in the middle. Lovely conversation though!
Lets not kid ourselves. For the best part of two thousand years the Jews (“The Christ Killers”) of Europe were pretty much in the position of the ‘weak’ living a tenuous existence amongst the ‘strong’ - a great shame Christianity didn’t do very much of that “protecting the weak” thing. As for the “Christian knight”: time to dig out a copy of Amos Oz’s “Unto Death: Crusade”.
@@scottharrison812 That's a very shallow criticism. Jews were usurers, and usury is a practice of war unfit for any kind of peace. In fact Jews are commanded by God not to use it with other Jews for that reason, so no, Jews dug their own hole when they thought they could toy with the local political class and make money off of them, violating the very rules of hospitality that then blew up on them. They were lousy squatters, never simply just innocent victims. Why should a land tolerate a foreign people who does not intermarry because they think themselves superior, does not want to integrate or obey your local laws, and practices dishonest trades to enrich themselves. Just because you're too profoundly ignorant to see that the modern world capitulated to that jewish degeneracy does not mean that you know any history, you're simply a parrot for the modern historiographical bias.
34:30 Interestingly enough, St. Gregory Palamas prophesied this exact thing that Tom mentions from Dostoevsky. Latin Christianity did collapse into atheism.
@TFEA To the extent that what you say is true, it's largely because those things have been imported from the West (whether via communism or general socio-political trends, etc). They are not homegrown in the way they are in non-Orthodox, Western nations.
@TFEA It's not just Jews, though. Communism and the various other influences which have been infecting our world, and the circumstances that made their spread possible wouldn't have been in place if Western Christendom's erosion and negative influence hadn't left space for them to, and the point is that Latin Christendom eroded from within because of fundamental errors.
A Christian psychologist from The States, Dr Richard Beck has written a marvellous book about the devil, demons, etc for the 'disenchanted'. Next year, he'll be releasing a new book on the re-enchantment of the world after secularism. Some here may find that worthwhile based on this conversation.
Wow! Two of my favourite thinkers together. How did these worlds align. I pray for Tom to have his eyes opened and his souls longing satisfied. Thank you for this interview Jonathan!
Not every bastard in the street is the illegitimate son of the King, despite what his Mother tells him. Not every Revolutionary who sees his pillage as inspired by Christ is walking a Christian ethos.
Wow I can't believe you got him to come on, great! Please have him on again and ask him about early Islamic history. He's helps changed a lot of people's minds about the traditional Islamic narrative.
Listen to his conversation on unbelievable with Tom Wright and Justin Brierley. Holland makes the depth charge comment and Wright mutters “very interesting” under his breath 😂
5⭐️ Reading Tom’s Excellent book now. Re lack of spiritual power in the church today and H Potter filling the void 😞check out the other Tom book - NT Wrights book The Day the Revolution Began - Reconsidering the Meaning of Jesus Crucifixion even the first 100 pages. Both Toms have been in conversation together on Unbelievable’s podcast. Thank you SO much for this!
I suggest Tom should read, David Bradshaw - Aristotle East and West. What Tom says at 35 min in was foreseen by Saint Palamas in his debates with Barlaam.
What's with the IDW's fascination with Hellenism? How come supposed Christians are so entralled with guys like this that are so fascinated by the pantheon?
You should listen more to tom's journey, look at his conversation on Reset for example. His story is exactly the kind of conversion we want to see away from modernism, you shouldn't be so quick to lump him in with the goats just because he's in the middle of his migration. Edit: speak life I mean ruclips.net/video/favILmUsVdg/видео.html
Christ never told the poor to rise up in bloody revolution. The French and Russian revolutions have nothing to do with the Christian Faith but rather a distortion of, perversion of, and misunderstanding of the Christian Faith, which is Holy Orthodoxy. That being said, I love Tom Holland's book Persian Fire and The Rubicon. Amazing reads. My favorite history books ever.
Tom Holland does not understand that Jesus did not only disarm the rulers and authorities on earth but He also disarmed the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This is the reason why Christianity swelled and is still swelling because of the defeat of the heavenly entities.
Thanks for this! I have a question on your theory that we are seeing the opposites pull apart... I get the Social Justice movement == de-incarnation. That makes sense. But where do we find its opposite today? Which group hosts the opposing pole, the "will-to-power rising up"?
Not sure if you would read this Tom or Jonathan, but I wanted to comment on Tom's point at 23:10 of Paul's dramatic monologues. I attend a Messianic Jewish Yeshiva and your response reminded me of my professors (Dr. John Fischer; who's also the President of the UMJC) analysis though with a somewhat different twist. He said they are akin to Rabbinic Responsa. Remember fellas, Paul was a Pharisee and was reaching out to synagogues and Gentiles in the Diaspora. While that isn't quite a dramatic monologue, it does have similarity, and I think is more contextually correct.
Rene Girard has a lot to say about the paradox that the decline of Christianity stems from the success of its worldview - i.e., its concern for victims in the end is turned against it; or that the story of Christianity has from the beginning been desacralizing the world.
Interesting Synchronicity... Trump is having issues with Dominion Voting Systems causing glitches in the 2020 presidential election, at the very same time this video was published. Gotta love this symbolic universe
Sorry to put a negative reply up, but Tom Holland rather reminds me why I left Anglicanism. It seems all a bit liberal, a bit like secularized Christianity.
Pageau, who do you need to find to talk about the death of Christianity? Because, by God, that moves in me as a darkness I do not yet understand but I see myself in it.
@@Coheirs2Heaven I watched it. I think it misses the point deliberately to make its own point. The entire thing could have been said without referencing Dominion at all. It takes Glory from Christ and gives it to Catholicism.
Are Tom and Jonathan claiming that Atheism comes from Christianity? But weren't the Epicureans Atheist? Maybe not pure Atheists, but enough so to credit them with the origin of Atheism rather than Christianity? From wikipedia page on Atheism: The most important Greek thinker in the development of atheism was Epicurus (c. 300 BCE). Drawing on the ideas of Democritus and the Atomists, he espoused a materialistic philosophy according to which the universe was governed by the laws of chance without the need for divine intervention (see scientific determinism). Although Epicurus still maintained that the gods existed, he believed that they were uninterested in human affairs.
No, that's not the claim. The claim is that the atheists in the Western world are Christian atheists in some way. All their presuppositions about morality have deep Christian roots which they take for granted. More like that humanism in the Western world is basically Christianity with all of the supernatural elements removed. I saw another discussion in which he goes deeper into this. Also Peterson touched upon this in his discussion with Harris.
@@Alnivol666 no, I think the claim is deeper than you are saying. That humanism comes from Christianity is obvious. But they claim and I suspect they are right,that Atheism itself is a point along a trajectory that started with the Jewish belief in a single God rather than many. Next, the Reformation abolished a lot of spiritual meaning attached to things, also the Enlightenment and the Deist idea of a clockwork God arose. From there it is only a small step to Atheism. But I still wonder where the ancient Greeks such as the Epicureans fit into that picture.
@@haraldwolte3745 I think disbelief in the supernatural predates Christianity to be honest. There are even atheistic religions out there. It is important to separate strands of atheism based on the culture where they arose. The atheism of somebody living in the 16th century for example came via different routes than an atheist living today. Take the 17th century born Jean Meslier for example. Today's atheism has delved into scientism quite a bit. A lot of atheists use the authority of science as a substitute for a divine authority without giving too much thought about it.
@@Alnivol666 I think the second half of your comment is probably true, but not the first. The very concept of a supernatural/natural divide is probably the result of The Enlightenment. The premodern world saw all things infused with inherent meaning, but the scientific worldview sundered them which is the crack that allows Atheism in thesymbolicworld.com/articles/how-the-scientific-revolution-changed-our-worldview/
@@haraldwolte3745 Sure. It is very hard for a modern person to even imagine how the pre-modern societies saw reality. So even if you are talking about atheism in pre-modern societies it is much different than any instance of atheism in modern societies. But I do think that atheism has been around since forever to be honest. How it manifested itself can be debated. And yes...we in the West do like to put things in very precise boxes. Like even the way we define religion is euro-centric. Non-Westerb cultures do not see these clear demarcations that we in the West have built to describe things.
I want Tom Holland, Jordan Peterson, Douglas Murray, Jonathan Pageau to become the “Celebrity Christians” to debate the Celebrity Atheists in a series of panel discussions.
There is a debate between Holland and Grayling in which Grayling pretty much embarasses himself on how little history he actually knows while promoting pseudo-history. It is funny how out of his depth he is. Holland on the other hand handles it beautifully.
The pattern of fascism is very interesting. If Merkel drew from the parable of the good Samaritan, then Hitler and other post-revolutionary dictators often drew from the parable of Christ separating the sheep and the goats. They supplant this to race, nation, sexuality, ideology instead of faith and works. Christ the judge is also not 'of the world', but He came into it. Likewise Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin were all born outside, or on the border of, the nations they judged and ruled. I think Jonathan discussed this already in a Q&A.
Excellent conversation, very much enjoyed it. If I'm reading the tea-leaves correctly, then psychedelic culture could be the very thing that brings about the 'resurrection' of Christianity. What the west has lost is immediate contact with 'spirit', and psychedelics have the capacity to bring that back. They can help us remember that the 'spark of divinity' is in all of us, even our enemies. I'm hoping that the Church starts to pay serious attention as psychedelic therapy becomes more mainstream, because there will be many many people who have had life-altering experiences but no context to set them in. It will also be a test for the Church, which has often demonized instead of loved that which it does not understand. It is likely that the divinity students who become the pastors and priests of the Church in the future will have psychedelics use as an initiation into holy rites. Who better to lead the church than those who have experienced beatific vision? To that end, I would highly recommend "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name" by Brian C. Muraresku as a worthy follow up to Dominion. Listening to these 2 books back to back has made for a most enlightening summer / fall season. Thank you again Jonathan and Tom for a great conversation. It is a joy to see the spirit move in the west again.
@@papercut7141 Absolutely! Every technology has the possibility of tremendously helping and tremendously hurting. Be careful with fire, be careful with nuclear power, be careful with computers and cell phones, be careful with guns. But don't be afraid of these things either - don't let fear stop you from slaying your particular dragon. --all the lobsters waiting for the hero to rescue their fathers.
You should check out Jonathon's interview with Owen Cyclops. He used to involve himself with psychedelics but has converted to Christianity and is vehemently against them.
@@emmagrace6396 It happens - not everyone has the same path through life. For many, psychedelics become escapism, but it is impossible to separate reality into 'good' and 'bad'. It is all in our use / perception of reality. I think for many, psychedelics are a very good thing - overwhelmingly positive and spiritual. That comes in part from our approach to them. Do we consider it a party enhancer, or a sacrament? It is not wise to profane the sacred. We should not make the mistake of generalizing one person's experience to everyone's. If you approach it as a healing tool (say for mental illnesses like depression and anxiety), they can be hugely beneficial. If you approach it like wanting to understand divinity (like the Marsh Chapel Experiment) then it is likely you will have a mystical experience and contact with the divine. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment We do have some huge remnants of puritanism in America which have caused us to forget 'spirit' and treat the unknown as presumed evil. That is the mentality that needs to change, this endless fear of 'the other'. It is especially strange since psychedelics affect consciousness - that which 'you are'. It makes no sense to be afraid to explore yourself, your 'being', to turn the eyes inwards and re-discover what we are made of beyond flesh and bone. My encouragement is to stop living in ignorance about that and do something to find out - whether prayer / fasting / meditation, or psychedelics, or holotropic breathwork - some sort of practice. What better use of time than to learn about what we are? Is there any discovery out there in 'reality' that could be more important? I'd rather be ignorant of something 'out there' than ignorant of the no-thing 'in here'. People's priorities are backwards...
I hope pageau knows there are real angels and devils not just abstractions of places. They are individual beings, pure spirit of a higher order than us
@TFEA since I’ve watched this videos I’ve seen more of his where he makes it clear that he does. I think he just emphasizes this point to make connections with people who don’t believe in anything that’s not purely material. I guess he’s more interested in the first step towards belief than in the full faith in most of his videos. Which is needed today, but not quite how I think/communicate.
The fact that there are genocides in the world and evils actions...Is it the only way for christians to understand and discern the righteous path of God or the gods!? And without the cross, i feel like there is no fusion between the past story and our time in the big pattern. What was the full pattern of the world for the grecs?
THE PROBLEM WITH SJW'S (10:25) IS THAT YES IT USES THE CHRISTIAN LANGUAGE OF CONCERN FOR OPPRESSED HOWEVER IT PREACHERS HATRED FOR THE OPPRESSOR WHERE AS XTY PREACHES LOVE FOR THE ENEMEY. ONE PREACHERS HATE THE OTHER LOVE.
I was clicked baited by Spider-Man, but got this gem instead.
#metoo
Same haha
Did the thumbnail change? I am confused
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That's hilarious! I kept getting compared to this guy for my mild atheistic views on Christianity... Then discovered there's a spiderman actor of the same name.
Looks like I'll be buying his children's book too! So excited for this conversation!
Would love to see hear your commentaries on the conversation in a live video!
So glad this is public. I have wanted this conversation for years. I have internalized a lot of both of your work. This is a dream. 17 year old me could have used this...
Holland: "You're Eastern Orthodox, aren't you?"
Pageau: *giggles* "yuh"
Pageau ‘s laughter is a symbol of his holy joy. I love it.
Holland in the dark and Pageau in bright light? What's the symbolism of that?
The cave and the light
For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Yin and Yang. And the uniting energy is Christian faith, in this case.
Since you ask.
Wow. Amazing interview. Gold content. What a time to be alive.
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I truly hope the church listens to the yearning within the culture for a return to everything that Christianity once meant to ordinary people. It has spent too long bowing to its own embarrassment and fear of offending people that through the attempt to not be 'weird' or off-putting, it has forgotten the sublime truth and perfect beauty that Christ alone offers.
So what you’re saying is you want to beat gay people again without worrying about the consequences
@@SirArthurTheGreat protect the weak, recognize the borders, that’s the lesson of modernity
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PVK is compiling his analysis video as we speak :-)
He can't let that jab at sola scriptura go. By the way did you know he's a calvinist?
@@RSanchez111 I do know that. He's a Dutch Reformed (i.e. Calvinist) pastor. That's OK, I'm a Scot: we're all Calvinists ;-)
Outstanding conversation. Thanks for this
Dominion is a great book! I learned a lot, and it gave me many new insights. I just started In the Shadow of the Sword, after which I‘ll have read all of Holland’s books so far. Great writer!
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I'm so glad this exists, as a longtime fan of Holland's books and a new fan of Pageau's. Thanks to both of you!
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Fascinating and beautifully articulate guy, coming from such a different place but converging in so much. Brilliant conversation.
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So good! Could have listened for hours more!
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what started out slow turned into an excellent discussion. christianity is ultimately a revealed religion but any time someone attempts to make an historical or academic analysis of the religion proper or the new testament they cannot help, it seems, but to apply a kind of inductive perspective to it; thus, paul is no longer receiving revelation from christ so much as he's making some kind of intellectual discovery, beginning with a kind of holy insight within from which he has to explore the depths of his own reason and psychology to unravel the final form of the thought process. while these kinds of perspectives can be interesting, so much holy, transformative content is lost by assuming a position where christianity is just another thought system inductively pursued by the mind of man.
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So good. Loved Holland’s remarks on Bunyan and Chaucer. I recommend Tom Holland’s book on the Persian Wars, “Persian Fire”.
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Ooo now this is a cool collaboration. Timely conversation. Thank you both.
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Great discussion, wonderful book and now looking forward to the PVK commentary! When JBP is able I would love to hear a discussion with all three of you!
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Would love to hear you guys do this again sometime. I think theres a lot you guys could talk about and this felt more like an extended introduction to each others ideas.
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Dear Tom.... Get a camera and a mic!!
And I can't get enough of listening to him, Jonathan and conversations like this! Although I never heard Jonathan talk so little (relatively) in a video ;)
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@@Coheirs2Heaven Thank you for bringing this to my attention, but the way I see it today, it would seem his are not the only views that appear flawed. Catholicism is, to the best of my knowledge, not equal to Christianity, but a branch of it. A major one, yes, but still only one of the many.
I've read most (not all) of Holland's book to date, and loved them all. This was a fabulous discussion. Jonathan Pageau and Tom Holland? Wow. Seriously, where else can you get content like this?
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Beautiful discussion, thank you.
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Loved this. Man I wish Tom had written about the orthodox church! Him not mentioning it in Dominion was kind of the only (minor) letdown i got from an otherwise beautiful book.
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Lovely, thank you most gentle men.
What is the name of the Norman church in London Tom refers to at 48:34
Found it!
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Bartholomew-the-Great
Thanks Tom and Jonathan .
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I think the lack of appeal of secular humanism is also demonstrated by the life story of Leo Tolstoy. He rejected the divine aspects of Christ, but embraced the moral teachings of Christ and aimed to frame those moral teachings in a secular humanist context. He also turned it into a movement and developed a following dedicated to his teachings on non-violence. However, his following quickly dissipated and I do think it's because his teachings lacked a central myth holding his movement together.
What's even more interesting is that among the people who were inspired by Tolstoy are Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. They found his teachings on non-violence very appealing, but reframed them in a religious context, for Gandhi a Hindu context and for MLK a Christian context. And it's exactly as Tom said, this led to near universal acceptance of MLK's civil rights movement and is still admired today, while almost nobody remembers that Tolstoy did more than just write novels.
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@@Coheirs2Heaven no, I don't think I would be.
@@RSanchez111 Your choice.
Poor tom, I think he was a bit out of his depth with what Jonathan was wanting to pull him into lol. Still just a little early in his religious journey, as he sort of admitted in the middle. Lovely conversation though!
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"Protect the weak!" That's the heart of christianity. The christian knight is the key.
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I thought it was serve the lord
@@owenduck you are right
Lets not kid ourselves. For the best part of two thousand years the Jews (“The Christ Killers”) of Europe were pretty much in the position of the ‘weak’ living a tenuous existence amongst the ‘strong’ - a great shame Christianity didn’t do very much of that “protecting the weak” thing. As for the “Christian knight”: time to dig out a copy of Amos Oz’s “Unto Death: Crusade”.
@@scottharrison812 That's a very shallow criticism. Jews were usurers, and usury is a practice of war unfit for any kind of peace. In fact Jews are commanded by God not to use it with other Jews for that reason, so no, Jews dug their own hole when they thought they could toy with the local political class and make money off of them, violating the very rules of hospitality that then blew up on them. They were lousy squatters, never simply just innocent victims. Why should a land tolerate a foreign people who does not intermarry because they think themselves superior, does not want to integrate or obey your local laws, and practices dishonest trades to enrich themselves. Just because you're too profoundly ignorant to see that the modern world capitulated to that jewish degeneracy does not mean that you know any history, you're simply a parrot for the modern historiographical bias.
Tom Holland and Jordan Peterson should chat.
34:30 Interestingly enough, St. Gregory Palamas prophesied this exact thing that Tom mentions from Dostoevsky. Latin Christianity did collapse into atheism.
@TFEA To the extent that what you say is true, it's largely because those things have been imported from the West (whether via communism or general socio-political trends, etc). They are not homegrown in the way they are in non-Orthodox, Western nations.
@TFEA I mean geographically. Geographically and historically Communism emerges from the Western half of Europe.
@TFEA It's not just Jews, though. Communism and the various other influences which have been infecting our world, and the circumstances that made their spread possible wouldn't have been in place if Western Christendom's erosion and negative influence hadn't left space for them to, and the point is that Latin Christendom eroded from within because of fundamental errors.
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A Christian psychologist from The States, Dr Richard Beck has written a marvellous book about the devil, demons, etc for the 'disenchanted'. Next year, he'll be releasing a new book on the re-enchantment of the world after secularism. Some here may find that worthwhile based on this conversation.
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Wow! Two of my favourite thinkers together. How did these worlds align. I pray for Tom to have his eyes opened and his souls longing satisfied. Thank you for this interview Jonathan!
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23:07 Or maybe it's us who are not certain what St Paul is about
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Thanks
I've been looking forward to this. YAY!
Not every bastard in the street is the illegitimate son of the King, despite what his Mother tells him.
Not every Revolutionary who sees his pillage as inspired by Christ is walking a Christian ethos.
Not every would be Cicero is even worth listening to (hint)
looking forward to this discussion!
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Absolutely riveting. I read Dominion a while ago, its importance cannot be overstated. Tom and Johnathan, thank you.
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Wow I can't believe you got him to come on, great! Please have him on again and ask him about early Islamic history. He's helps changed a lot of people's minds about the traditional Islamic narrative.
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26:16 he's been reading NT Wright - pretty sure that depth charge idea about Paul is his.
Listen to his conversation on unbelievable with Tom Wright and Justin Brierley. Holland makes the depth charge comment and Wright mutters “very interesting” under his breath 😂
@@vroomvroomcarnong oh, yes, that's right! Thanks!
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Love listening to Tom
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5⭐️ Reading Tom’s Excellent book now. Re lack of spiritual power in the church today and H Potter filling the void 😞check out the other Tom book - NT Wrights book The Day the Revolution Began - Reconsidering the Meaning of Jesus Crucifixion even the first 100 pages. Both Toms have been in conversation together on Unbelievable’s podcast. Thank you SO much for this!
Tom Holland is a true Heavyweight Champ. Thanks for this exhibition!
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GREAT VIDEO !!!
I suggest Tom should read, David Bradshaw - Aristotle East and West.
What Tom says at 35 min in was foreseen by Saint Palamas in his debates with Barlaam.
Loved you in Spider Man
I'll let myself out...
Nice.
37:20 Tom Holland referencing John Milton's 'On the Morning of Christ's Nativity
It’s a fantastic book. He’s a great writer.
Wow, Spidey really let himself go...
But you have got to give it to him, his American accent in the Avengers movies is on point.
@@dirtpoorrobins The best part is both Tom Hollands are British with English Accents
Wonderful stuff
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I was hoping for Spidey
"i finished the *BOOK A WEEK AGO* ..." Appreciate this, Jonathan!
Am thinking of buying it but his last was very very overwordy and flowery, is this the same?? Thanks
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Love it!
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Best video on youtube.
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What's with the IDW's fascination with Hellenism? How come supposed Christians are so entralled with guys like this that are so fascinated by the pantheon?
You should listen more to tom's journey, look at his conversation on Reset for example. His story is exactly the kind of conversion we want to see away from modernism, you shouldn't be so quick to lump him in with the goats just because he's in the middle of his migration.
Edit: speak life I mean ruclips.net/video/favILmUsVdg/видео.html
It's not the pantheon they are excited about. It's understanding symbols and patterns of reality.
I think its because the ancient Greeks are so critical in western canon. They're like the original founding fathers lol
Bon appetit!
Christ never told the poor to rise up in bloody revolution. The French and Russian revolutions have nothing to do with the Christian Faith but rather a distortion of, perversion of, and misunderstanding of the Christian Faith, which is Holy Orthodoxy.
That being said, I love Tom Holland's book Persian Fire and The Rubicon. Amazing reads. My favorite history books ever.
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Tom Holland does not understand that Jesus did not only disarm the rulers and authorities on earth but He also disarmed the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This is the reason why Christianity swelled and is still swelling because of the defeat of the heavenly entities.
You should get Tim O'Neill on as well
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Thanks for this!
I have a question on your theory that we are seeing the opposites pull apart...
I get the Social Justice movement == de-incarnation. That makes sense.
But where do we find its opposite today? Which group hosts the opposing pole, the "will-to-power rising up"?
Not sure if you would read this Tom or Jonathan, but I wanted to comment on Tom's point at 23:10 of Paul's dramatic monologues. I attend a Messianic Jewish Yeshiva and your response reminded me of my professors (Dr. John Fischer; who's also the President of the UMJC) analysis though with a somewhat different twist. He said they are akin to Rabbinic Responsa. Remember fellas, Paul was a Pharisee and was reaching out to synagogues and Gentiles in the Diaspora. While that isn't quite a dramatic monologue, it does have similarity, and I think is more contextually correct.
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Awesome glad your two meet. Good choice to invite and to accept guys
Can’t wait for Tom to write something on Orthodoxy!
So are angels their own being as we are orrr
The Protestant reformation took the Roman church as "the sump of idolatry that has to be drained." 12:29
Wordsmith. Ejoyable.
Jonathan, when will you write your own book?
He doesn't write. He sculpts. Doesn't do glass work either.
Rene Girard has a lot to say about the paradox that the decline of Christianity stems from the success of its worldview - i.e., its concern for victims in the end is turned against it; or that the story of Christianity has from the beginning been desacralizing the world.
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Came for Spiderman, stayed for Tom Holland
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35:00 to 38:20
Interesting Synchronicity... Trump is having issues with Dominion Voting Systems causing glitches in the 2020 presidential election, at the very same time this video was published. Gotta love this symbolic universe
Sorry to put a negative reply up, but Tom Holland rather reminds me why I left Anglicanism. It seems all a bit liberal, a bit like secularized Christianity.
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Pageau, who do you need to find to talk about the death of Christianity? Because, by God, that moves in me as a darkness I do not yet understand but I see myself in it.
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@@Coheirs2Heaven I watched it. I think it misses the point deliberately to make its own point. The entire thing could have been said without referencing Dominion at all.
It takes Glory from Christ and gives it to Catholicism.
I like the twinkle in Tom's eye as he talks about the Marquis de Sade
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Tom, please go visit Alwyn at Calvary Chapel London! B & C Col 3:1-4
Great talk. I am a big fan of Tom Holland. His books are great, especially Persian Fire and The Forge of Christendom. Highly recommend them.
He spoke with Spodermon???
NOT SPODERMON!!!
Are Tom and Jonathan claiming that Atheism comes from Christianity? But weren't the Epicureans Atheist? Maybe not pure Atheists, but enough so to credit them with the origin of Atheism rather than Christianity?
From wikipedia page on Atheism:
The most important Greek thinker in the development of atheism was Epicurus (c. 300 BCE). Drawing on the ideas of Democritus and the Atomists, he espoused a materialistic philosophy according to which the universe was governed by the laws of chance without the need for divine intervention (see scientific determinism). Although Epicurus still maintained that the gods existed, he believed that they were uninterested in human affairs.
No, that's not the claim. The claim is that the atheists in the Western world are Christian atheists in some way. All their presuppositions about morality have deep Christian roots which they take for granted. More like that humanism in the Western world is basically Christianity with all of the supernatural elements removed.
I saw another discussion in which he goes deeper into this.
Also Peterson touched upon this in his discussion with Harris.
@@Alnivol666 no, I think the claim is deeper than you are saying. That humanism comes from Christianity is obvious. But they claim and I suspect they are right,that Atheism itself is a point along a trajectory that started with the Jewish belief in a single God rather than many. Next, the Reformation abolished a lot of spiritual meaning attached to things, also the Enlightenment and the Deist idea of a clockwork God arose. From there it is only a small step to Atheism. But I still wonder where the ancient Greeks such as the Epicureans fit into that picture.
@@haraldwolte3745 I think disbelief in the supernatural predates Christianity to be honest. There are even atheistic religions out there. It is important to separate strands of atheism based on the culture where they arose.
The atheism of somebody living in the 16th century for example came via different routes than an atheist living today. Take the 17th century born Jean Meslier for example.
Today's atheism has delved into scientism quite a bit. A lot of atheists use the authority of science as a substitute for a divine authority without giving too much thought about it.
@@Alnivol666 I think the second half of your comment is probably true, but not the first. The very concept of a supernatural/natural divide is probably the result of The Enlightenment. The premodern world saw all things infused with inherent meaning, but the scientific worldview sundered them which is the crack that allows Atheism in thesymbolicworld.com/articles/how-the-scientific-revolution-changed-our-worldview/
@@haraldwolte3745 Sure. It is very hard for a modern person to even imagine how the pre-modern societies saw reality. So even if you are talking about atheism in pre-modern societies it is much different than any instance of atheism in modern societies. But I do think that atheism has been around since forever to be honest. How it manifested itself can be debated.
And yes...we in the West do like to put things in very precise boxes. Like even the way we define religion is euro-centric. Non-Westerb cultures do not see these clear demarcations that we in the West have built to describe things.
I'm coming to this conversation late, but i wonder if Pageau has read Heiser's Unseen Realm.
They certainly seem to be plowing the same field, whether they know it or not.
41:32-41:50 interesting that Tom Holland sees this so clearly. I would wager that this is why orthodox Christianity is making a comeback.
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I want Tom Holland, Jordan Peterson, Douglas Murray, Jonathan Pageau to become the “Celebrity Christians” to debate the Celebrity Atheists in a series of panel discussions.
There is a debate between Holland and Grayling in which Grayling pretty much embarasses himself on how little history he actually knows while promoting pseudo-history. It is funny how out of his depth he is. Holland on the other hand handles it beautifully.
The Rise of Christianity by Rodney Stark fills certain gaps in this conversation.
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Lol I thought this was about the voting software
MUCH Better than that, Patriots
I’ve been waiting with baited breath for this one
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im so fkn jealous of jonathans hair
The pattern of fascism is very interesting. If Merkel drew from the parable of the good Samaritan, then Hitler and other post-revolutionary dictators often drew from the parable of Christ separating the sheep and the goats. They supplant this to race, nation, sexuality, ideology instead of faith and works. Christ the judge is also not 'of the world', but He came into it. Likewise Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin were all born outside, or on the border of, the nations they judged and ruled. I think Jonathan discussed this already in a Q&A.
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El Cid is maur and the sward in his heart doesn't kill him
🙏🏼
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41:32 What a devastating remark. Traditional Christianity is the way.
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I read Holland's _Rubicon_ and loved it; glad to hear _Dominion_ is also worth it
Tom thinks Christianity will end, and it's end is built into it? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but wouldn't that be the one thing that would disprove it?
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@@Coheirs2Heaven Thank you, excellent points.
Excellent conversation, very much enjoyed it.
If I'm reading the tea-leaves correctly, then psychedelic culture could be the very thing that brings about the 'resurrection' of Christianity. What the west has lost is immediate contact with 'spirit', and psychedelics have the capacity to bring that back. They can help us remember that the 'spark of divinity' is in all of us, even our enemies. I'm hoping that the Church starts to pay serious attention as psychedelic therapy becomes more mainstream, because there will be many many people who have had life-altering experiences but no context to set them in. It will also be a test for the Church, which has often demonized instead of loved that which it does not understand.
It is likely that the divinity students who become the pastors and priests of the Church in the future will have psychedelics use as an initiation into holy rites. Who better to lead the church than those who have experienced beatific vision?
To that end, I would highly recommend "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name" by Brian C. Muraresku as a worthy follow up to Dominion. Listening to these 2 books back to back has made for a most enlightening summer / fall season.
Thank you again Jonathan and Tom for a great conversation. It is a joy to see the spirit move in the west again.
Be careful with unearned wisdom
-some lobster
@@papercut7141 Absolutely! Every technology has the possibility of tremendously helping and tremendously hurting.
Be careful with fire, be careful with nuclear power, be careful with computers and cell phones, be careful with guns.
But don't be afraid of these things either - don't let fear stop you from slaying your particular dragon.
--all the lobsters waiting for the hero to rescue their fathers.
You should check out Jonathon's interview with Owen Cyclops. He used to involve himself with psychedelics but has converted to Christianity and is vehemently against them.
@@emmagrace6396 It happens - not everyone has the same path through life.
For many, psychedelics become escapism, but it is impossible to separate reality into 'good' and 'bad'. It is all in our use / perception of reality.
I think for many, psychedelics are a very good thing - overwhelmingly positive and spiritual. That comes in part from our approach to them. Do we consider it a party enhancer, or a sacrament? It is not wise to profane the sacred.
We should not make the mistake of generalizing one person's experience to everyone's. If you approach it as a healing tool (say for mental illnesses like depression and anxiety), they can be hugely beneficial. If you approach it like wanting to understand divinity (like the Marsh Chapel Experiment) then it is likely you will have a mystical experience and contact with the divine.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment
We do have some huge remnants of puritanism in America which have caused us to forget 'spirit' and treat the unknown as presumed evil. That is the mentality that needs to change, this endless fear of 'the other'.
It is especially strange since psychedelics affect consciousness - that which 'you are'. It makes no sense to be afraid to explore yourself, your 'being', to turn the eyes inwards and re-discover what we are made of beyond flesh and bone. My encouragement is to stop living in ignorance about that and do something to find out - whether prayer / fasting / meditation, or psychedelics, or holotropic breathwork - some sort of practice. What better use of time than to learn about what we are? Is there any discovery out there in 'reality' that could be more important? I'd rather be ignorant of something 'out there' than ignorant of the no-thing 'in here'. People's priorities are backwards...
@@brentonbrenton9964 just check the guy out. He's extremely insightful
Mary should go on WITH a sward in her heard, knights of the men
I hope pageau knows there are real angels and devils not just abstractions of places. They are individual beings, pure spirit of a higher order than us
@TFEA since I’ve watched this videos I’ve seen more of his where he makes it clear that he does. I think he just emphasizes this point to make connections with people who don’t believe in anything that’s not purely material. I guess he’s more interested in the first step towards belief than in the full faith in most of his videos. Which is needed today, but not quite how I think/communicate.
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Peter Parker looks so different in real life 😊
When the interviewer brings more to the table than the author! Great talk
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The fact that there are genocides in the world and evils actions...Is it the only way for christians to understand and discern the righteous path of God or the gods!? And without the cross, i feel like there is no fusion between the past story and our time in the big pattern. What was the full pattern of the world for the grecs?
Thought it concerned the election
THE PROBLEM WITH SJW'S (10:25) IS THAT YES IT USES THE CHRISTIAN LANGUAGE OF CONCERN FOR OPPRESSED HOWEVER IT PREACHERS HATRED FOR THE OPPRESSOR WHERE AS XTY PREACHES LOVE FOR THE ENEMEY. ONE PREACHERS HATE THE OTHER LOVE.
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Tom Holland is awe inspiring...and yes this guy is a historian.