A Universal History: History through the Symbolic Lens | with Richard Rohlin
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- I interview Richard Rohlin, philologist and co-host of the Amon Sûl podcast. We talk about the "universal history" - ancient people understood themselves to part of fundamentally the same world approachable through different identities and particularities in time. The modern world has lost this natural coherence and instead sees identity and narrative as tyrannical and/or arbitrary. Richard and I talk about hagiography, the Middle Ages as our cultural backdrop, syncretism and how we can rediscover a shared and coherent narrative by understanding historical events symbolically.
Richard’s work:
- Richard Rohlin’s article on The Symbolic World blog: thesymbolicwor...
- Amon Sûl podcast (Exploring the Tolkien Legendarium with the Christian Faith): www.ancientfai...
- Amid Weeping There is Joy: www.amazon.com...
- 7 & 8 May 2021 Doxamoot online conference: store.ancientf...
Books and podcasts mentioned:
- Apocalypse. An Alexandrian World Chronicle (Dumbarton Oaks Medieval Library): www.amazon.com...
- The Discarded Image, by C.S. Lewis
- The Aeneid, by Virgil
- Taliessin Through Logres, by Charles Williams
- Edda: Prologue and Gylfaginning, by Snorri Sturluson
- The History of the Kings of Britain (Penguin Classics), by Geoffrey of Monmouth www.amazon.com...
- Lord of Spirits, episode on giants: www.ancientfai...
-
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The outro to my videos was written by Matthew Wilkinson
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You guys NEED to podcast together. Seriously. I haven't seen Jonathan so excited before.
I’ve been re-reading the old stories (The Iliad, The Aeneid, Beowulf, Le Morte d’Arthur, The Holy Grail, Gawain, etc) and this really ties it all together- mind-blowing! Thank you so much!
i just finished reading all of those except beowulf. maybe that one has to be next.
I’m just reading Stephen Lawhead’s Pendragon Cycle and threw thoughts out and this was recommended to me 😂 this is so good.
While the rest of the world's "thinkers" are stuck on racial issues these guys are actually thinking about real stuff
Agreed. It’s beautiful
Race is real... what are you on about?
@@hunivan7672 The human race, yes. Your point?
It's funny because this could directly solve the racial issues right now. So they aren't entirely unrelated. All people want is to be made valid by participating in the narrative of reality.
@@James_Bee All races are real. What is YOUR point?
I need an education. A doctorate in Metallurgy is not enough. A lifetime of continuing self-education from a modernist perspective is not enough. Reading beyond science is not enough. Even with the ability to multi-task with podcasts I don't have enough hours in the day or capacity to keep everything in mind. What to do? Well, back to some chores.... but I mustn't forget my phone and headphones.
"Well, Back to chorin." - letterkenny
it's a strage time to be an employee. Im a welder, and all i do is listen to podcasts and music all day long, except smoke breaks. In my separate booth, 10 foot wide. 10 foot deep.
Look into "the great books of the western world"
Do whatever is within your limits, the most important thing is to be close to family and prepare the generations to come.
Wow! Wow! Wow! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I am first of an Orthodox Christian, but I am also a historian and a medieval byzantine re-enactor, and guys, this was... the best Easter present we could get from you!!
Thank you for not writing "an historian"
Understanding the symbolism of history is crucial for the preparation for the very tumultuous part of the cycle that is occurring in real time...
Somebody should make a chart connecting all the historical figures and their intersection.
I think we need a popular rediscovery of the symbolic history of the west.
Having such maps could really help!
I’m Baptist and I appreciate your guys thought provoking discussion on the universal history of the world
@@tval00 Out of interest - and perhaps it is too early to tell - but seeing this kind of dialogue within Orthodoxy, does it move you toward Orthodoxy perhaps or rather does it move you to bring more of understanding into the Baptist church?
I reiterate this is out of interest as I am not Orthodox myself (though I have Orthodox heritage).
@@tval00 just curious, what aspects of the Bible or reality do you feel isn’t being well explained at your church or experience at the Baptist church? Personally I’ve always felt that the Baptist churches (for the most part) are the most theologically sound which is why I’ve always been going to Baptist churches. However, we as Christians regardless of denomination, can always improve in our understanding of things.
The best Pageau show for a long time, maybe the best ever. Well done!!!
Really excited to give this a listen. I've been thinking about ways to approach history through a symbolic lens for a while, so intrigued to hear what you guys have to say!
Hello, didn't realize you like Jonathan Pageau
This was pretty good, unfortunately you both missed the fact that the Trojans, Helens, Britains, offspring of Noah, etc. were actually all Black people and white people stole their history.
@@Hitlerbaddaringood I don't think you understand History that well
@@Hitlerbaddaringood even if you were correct, which you aren’t, and every person who has read even a tiny bit of history and anthropology knows none of those groups were African, you come here in poor spirit and that’s what I don’t appreciate. If you do indeed believe that, go somewhere that is stupid enough to actually debate that topic and talk there.
@@TheDonovanMcCormick if your best weapon against insanity is a vintage dose of flaccid rationale, we're doomed indeed..
Thank you for a really pleasurable conversation. And as a convert to Orthodoxy, I love knowing that you are both converts! ❤️☦️❤️
Saved this. The mythical formation and unification of Constantine blew my socks off. The gravity of that historical fallout is impossible to overstate.
It is so refreshing to listen to people talking about the Medieval era with lenses other than those of our materialistic/revolutionary popular culture. God bless you and thanks for the excellent work!
Um, yes. Color me VERY excited about where this conversation is going. I'm like a sponge to it! Awesome!
This channel has earned my trust. I will give it a thumbs up even before watching the whole thing 😀
This commenter has earned my trust. I will give it a thumbs up even before reading the whole thing 😃
@@thatguy190 😀
My mind was in a continual state of explosion throughout this entire podcast. Amazing job! Keep this content flowing!
The world needs your book, Gentlemen, and all this information needs to be in it.
Fascinating. Not sure how many other Orthodox Jews watch this channel, but I'm a big fan. Found you via Dr. Peterson. Keep up the good work!
You NEED to continue this explanation of history, top class
Definitely going to need to give this one a second listen. Great conversation
An inspiring discussion. After I get through reading LotR with my family, the plan is to move to some Arthurian stories (which even I will be reading for the first time).
Also, I'll be on the lookout for that "Finding the Golden Key" link.
As a reformed protestant, I really appreciated your take on prophecy and history being intertwined. Historicism is the only good way to look at Revelation and all apocalyo literature. So may Christians ignore the fact that many of the prophecies about Christ were fulfilled first by people contemporary to the prophecy given before the primary fulfillment in Christ.
Really loving your content!
Yes yes it's all a pattern before Christ fulfilled the patterns they existed long before and some of the prophecies occurred as well
I'm so excited to watch the next videos
I'm so excited about this! So many treasures to rediscover.
This is perfect timing! I just finished presenting an essay on the medieval roots of the American Creed. Jefferson, in particular, is drenched in medieval suppositions; intellectual and mythological.
@counselthyself Interesting, I have not read Atlantis, only a quote. I know Bacon is a key enlightenment figure but I didn’t know Jefferson paid him homage by calling him a founding father. One of the most interesting influences on Jefferson, I believe, is Saint Cardinal Bellarmine. Thank you!
Got me on the edge of my seat
no, we hungarians dont look like ogres:) I am more a Christ-looking than a Shrek-looking guy:)
I had started watching this shortly after it was released. Didnt finished, only finished now. Just taught a class on Istanbul/Byzantium/Cnople today. Super duper cool podcast episode.
Thank you guys so much for bringing from “ the high” to share with us all 🙏
Man this show was awesome. I enjoyed it so much and I can't wait to listen to it again. I'll be sharing it all over to my buddies
Superb conversation. I need more of this.
I'm so glad these talks are happening!
I am thinking the people that came to Turtle Island, the Americas must've split much earlier than this. I'm really thinking about how they fit into the Christian story. When I encountered the Lakota traditions as a Christian, I didn't see it as pagan despite their consideration as such. My conversations with my cousin/God sister who got a masters in Catholic divinity also could see the structure more fit the Christian structure, worshipping the high God Tunkashila grandfather, Wakan Tanka, the huge sacred. The White Buffalo calf woman brought the pipe as she is considered like Mary, and the pipe was considered to be like the sacrament of the Eucharist, presented as the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The pipe stem being the body, the red bowl the blood you take in the smoke in communion sending prayers up to Tunkashila. Why so many Lakota converted. They had no gods. The natural world belonged to Wakan Tanka. Even the four directions, literally translate as places. Like the West, Wiyohpiyata the place where the sun goes down, etc. Wichasa man and Winyan woman both have Wi, the Sun life energy God energy in them. I'm curious how it fits in the Christian story.
Fantastic. I’m going to have to listen to this again and take notes.
Great great talk. Beautiful guys. Magnificent
Wow, a video I don't need to watch at full volume. Thank you for the content and the higher master volume range compared to other creators' videos.
Must be on your end - never had a problem with Jonathan’s audio levels.
@@CScott-wh5yk sorry, meant as compared to other creators.
This is truly great. Something to take a dive into.
CHRIST IS RISEN!
For the love of God, make part 2 ASAAAPPPPP
Exited about this. Myths and religion are clearly symbolic, but history I have little knowledge of the symbolism, aside from the cycles in history. This will be fun to learn!
yes! we are excited about this story! huge thanks; you are awesome!
Amazing conversation
In reference to Alexander the Great's encounter with the prophecy of Daniel leading to the sparing of Israel, I couldn't help but think of the historical parallel of Pope Leo I dissuading Attila the Hun in AD 452 to abruptly withdraw from attacking Rome, where some hagiography has Pope Leo I pointing to St. Peter and Paul's images in the sky as protectors of the city, which was apparently sufficient for Attila to turn around and leave Rome unpillaged.
Two very educated gentlemen. Loved this topic
This baffles me, in a good sense, this is extremely interesting
Phenomenal conversation. I learned so much! Thanks.
I legit loved this, I'm totally re reading all the Conquistador and Friar chornicles of the Conquest of Mexico. I'm sure I will "see" so much more there. I watched this video ages ago, and didn't understand it really well, I'm glad I am rewatching it! Time is indeed not linear!
This part of this series made the most sense to me. Watch it first.
I'm so excited for more of this!
Beautiful conversation.
Fascinating discussion. Please do more!
I’m beyond excited for future episodes. Are there any past episodes that I should watch?
All of them.
Old world vs new world, environmentalism and tower of Babylon with Paul Kingsworth, Eden as a cosmic structure.😊
Did anyone else notice this Mr. Rohlin fellow has the same occupation as Ransom from the CS Lewis space trilogy?
Well, it’s also the same profession occupied by one JRR Tolkien.
Even Isaac Newton appropriated. That is what he meant with his famous quote, "if I have seen further [than others], it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
The Redeemable philosophy is the very essence of Christianity and is symbolic throughout both Testaments.
Where does written language come from, and did it give the inventors of that language a military and economic superiority that was, in fact, a natural selection phenomenon? Amazing video and look forward to more from both of you.
The no el, “Between the Bridge and the River”, by Craig Ferguson, takes parts of all these aspects of universal history and weaves them into an odd little redemption tale. It is a fun book to read when one is needing a break from academia.
Awesome stuff! Looking forward to the next one!
That was awesome, yet so hard to follow for someone who doesnt have enough background in these stories, if you could please make a more in depth video about it, it would be so amazing 🙏 in grace and prayers, I hope to see you talk more about all of this
More of this pleaaase!!!
From the music side of things, or poetry/song, the chason du geste and the "get the lads togather" genre is a fun subject to dive into.
Two things. First, amazing. So awed and thankful, personally, and for what God is doing through you for our time. Second, do not despise your spiritual origins in fundamentalism. As misguided as it often is, you guys both owe much of God's work in your life to the desire of those folks to please God.
I am and will always be very grateful for where I came from.
This is quite literally epic.
Jonathan, will you be following up on the Revelation/Beasts video soon? Thanks.
Yoooo we vibin
Good shit, gonna have to listen to this one again :)
The contemporary Italian Medievalist, Alessandro Barbero, a genius researcher, melds story and history seamlessly in his presentations. No wonder this ‘divulgatore’ has become a ‘RUclips Star’ in Italy........
Methinks Prof Peterson lives in this same world.........
Wonderful, wonderful. This may come up in future episodes, but I've been fascinated by another instance of Trojans popping up in the West. The French coronated their king in a city called Rheims. The story goes that the family of Remus fled Rome into Gaul after Romulus murdered Remus and founded a city in his name... Remus->Rem->Rheims. Thereby the French kings saw themselves in the lineage of the Roman-Trojans.
Jonathan, would you ever be willing to do a video on St. Barlaam and Johosaphat. It’s one of the main reasons a Lutheran friend of mine is skeptical of orthodoxy! Appreciate your videos!
Neat discussion. Fun to watch threads being woven together.
Certainly knew the reference of Maginot line (even if I had to use autocorrect to spell it).
this prompted me to read about the legendary beginnings of Poland and I'll leave it here as a fun fact.
it's quite different from the examples mentioned. according to legend our first ruler was from here, a native, and he established a country by making laws to protect the weakest and ensuring the ruler is equally subject to the law. Then his sons killed a dragon using trickery, younger son killed the older one to become the ruler. Soon people learned about this and exiled their own king! His sister Wanda (some say her name referts to "woda" meaning "water") took the throne, refused to marry a tyrannical German prince, defeated his army by being so otherworldly and majestic that German warriors refused to fight, then she died (some say sacrificing herself to protect her people). When Alexander the Great's messengers came demaning a tribute, Polish people ruled by Lestek killed them brutally and sent the bodies back. Alexander got angry and came with his army but Lestek beat him (!) so Poland remained independent. Later Julius Caesar came with his army and Lestek beat him too (!!!). Defeated Caesar gave up his sister Julia for Lestek to marry (!!!!!) making Polish kings half-Roman. What an epic story. And you can see it permeating the Polish identity: there's nothing we hate more than an empire. We don't admire conquerors and we won't let any tyrant take our independence.
Great talk, thanks.
Will you talk about the conversion of the mesoamerican and inca
civilizations?
This has been in my mind too! I’ve been thinking about the universal story of Central America in particular. I have some ideas that I would love for either of these guys to comment on. If you would like to talk about that would interesting! Are you on the symbolic world discord?
Amen, gentlemen.
Sybil: a female oracle
Shepherd: a protective guide
Cybill Shepherd: I dunno, just some lady.
Constantine the Great was born on the territory of today's Serbia, in the city of Nis, then Naisus.
The opinion that Constantine was born in Britain was skillfully refuted by Johann Daniel Schoepflin in the treatise "Constantine the Great was not British" which is in his "Historical and Critical Studies".
It is about Constantine's birth in power on British soil, not the classic bodily birth.
Just to be as precise as possible. :)
Do you think it's possible to concretize the granularity of the past or future with writing?
I’m sorry, my mind is blown here lol. Love this podcast. Jonathan Pageau, love you work.
What book(s) do you recommend to read up on The Trojan War apart from Homer’s work?
On dit "Québékistan"
Is it possible to have a universal history with national/tribal identities with modern global information technology? Everyone is blended into one tribe online, and people will move to tribes they see as preferable (cosplay culture). It's difficult to be part of a story when you can just move to any story you prefer rather than yours.
I would like to say yes, we can still have one, but it seems like would we need to move away from being online for the majority of the day
What Chesterton called ‘True Myth’
Thanks
Minor point of contention: Constantinople did indeed have pagan temples. The City of Byzantion was a Greek pagan colony/city prior to it being renamed Constantinople, and the temples weren't closed before the renaming, nor immediately afterwards.
Your caption for this podcast should be on a T shirt. Its so captivating.
Thank you for telling the truth no matter what the cost sending you and your family much love and respect in Yeshua Christ
We miss the movie breakdowns jon 🙌
30:16 I was raised Southern Baptist. I've been in many churches. MANY. I've never heard even one person claim America, much less the US Air Force, is in Revelation. That's a new one on me.
Who do you think the whore is?
You guys are killing it 😁
great pilot episode ;) please more
I read The Aeneid during the previous lockdown: it was great! Highly recommend.
I wonder which book mentioned in this episode I should read in the current lockdown
- Apocalypse. An Alexandrian World Chronicle (Dumbarton Oaks Medieval Library): www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Ale...
- The Discarded Image, by C.S. Lewis
- The Aeneid, by Virgil
- Taliessin Through Logres, by Charles Williams
- Edda: Prologue and Gylfaginning, by Snorri Sturluson
- The History of the Kings of Britain (Penguin Classics), by Geoffrey of Monmouth www.amazon.com/History-Kings-...
- Lord of Spirits, episode on giants: www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts...
From the ending of this, would you say that Constantine was the last legitimate holder of the pontifex maximus title?
Please ask Paul Kingsnorth for an essay to include in your book. He may be new to Orthodoxy, but he’s not new to storytelling.
I “wonder” if peoples’ learning styles have something to do with seeing patterns or not? Intuitives look for patterns; sensates look for facts. Apparently, about 1/4 of people living in the west are intuitive; whereas, most westerners are sensate.
Good evening , gentlemen. How is far east. China and Japan, thai, etc. In the universal history scene ? Were they completely ignored? Thank you.
Jonathan is so hyped to click with Richard I love this video
where can I find this table of nations mapped out by linguistic groups
Data scientists are big data wranglers, gathering and analyzing large sets of structured and unstructured data. A data scientist’s role combines computer science, statistics, and mathematics. They analyze, process, and model data then interpret the results to create actionable plans for companies and other organizations.
Can we get some links to some of the projects listed at the end of the video? Is the site up for the submission of articles? And is there a link with information about this conference?
What's the Sybil's riddle?
What do you think of CS Lewis' "The Last Battle?" (Narnia 6)
I personally think it is one of the most prescient pieces of fiction of all time.
Hey Jonathan, I'm starting to read "The City of God" by st. Augustine, I was wondering if you thought it was worth a mention in regards to universal history
The fact that early humans could have been seen as “gods” in later history would make sense if you accept the flood genealogy for the ages of the first generations after the flood. Any individuals living for hundreds of years longer than later generations would have made a profound impact on the culture of later generations. I further would suggest that if Noahs first descendants lived for so long, it stands to reason that the first generations of animals and beasts from the Ark would have also had enormous lifespans. In the case of cold blooded animals ,they grow for their entire lifespan. This could explain both the origin of “gods” and “monstrous beasts”.