UPDATED COMMENT: LET'S TALK ABOUT MARLENE. I did not realize she did not give Ellie a choice either when it came to the decision. In really any potential case other than Ellie agreeing to the fatal surgery, it makes sense what Joel did. In a way, it is him ensuring she is provided a choice. At the same time, the destruction of so many others' lives to save one is one of the major themes in the show. Now, one thing I did NOT know, is that they had tried this surgery multiple times in the past (with other immune individuals???) and the surgery failed. With Ellie being a 14yo child, consent is very important right now. Marlene not giving Ellie the choice to go through with a fatal surgery is a major problem and frankly, one she deserved to make on her own. I can't believe it's over! 😢Please see the description for resources. ❤ If there is something missing from this episode that you'd like me to comment on let me know and I'll try and answer it in the comments or in next week's video. Thank you for being here! 👇
15:05 It is hinted in the game that Joel tried to kill himself but it was never confirmed, until now. All this conversation is new tho, it's not in the game. Thank you for reacting to this show, hope to see your reactions and analysis of season 2, so much love from Argentina ♥
Now you ended this one (I loved it! And will miss) i want suggest to you watch The Extraordinary Attorney Woo Young Woo is about a autistic attorney and is very sensitive and i think you will loved the psychologist aspects about every episode is one diferente case. Seriously consider watch please 🥺😌
I don't know if you missed it or just didn't bring it up, but Marlene specifically said she didn't tell Ellie what was going to happen. She didn't respect her first, She didn't let her say no, and you know she wouldn't have taken no for an answer if that was the answer.. She was willing to sacrifice a child, without said child's consent, based on a GUESS. "Our Doctor THINKS..." He's never met Ellie, never examined her, definitely hasn't done a spinal tap or likely even any blood work to prove his hypothesis. heck, they didn't even shave her head during prep. The Fact is, the Fireflies are completely unequipped to do what they plan. They lack the knowledge, experience, and infrastructure, and even any certainty. But they have a chronic savior syndrome. Joel and Marlene were both Selfish, but I don't think what Joel did actually changed anything. The world is done. Society is broken beyond repair, and a cure isn't going to fix it. Like Tess said 'Being immune doesn't stop you from being ripped apart." To me the only real thing Joel did that was wrong was lying to Ellie, but it's totally understandable why he did.
In the beginning Joel actually understand what's going on with Ellie and he tried really hard to cheer her up constantly worried that she might not be there in her anymore until the giraffe that he see she's still in there that's why he's smile
thanks for your commentary! the idea of agency and choice has always been a theme of the story but the show made this more apparent in other ways. I think because the relationship between them had less time to develop than in the game, the writers were more on the nose with the direction of their relationship ("time didn't heal it", Joel comparing Sarah and Ellie more, etc), and as a result, some criticize it for feeling unearned or too "forced." I love this game/story but I can't help but see how over the course of their journey, Ellie's identity is kind of minimized. People say Joel taught her everything, or she is mini Joel. And then she is either the "cure" or Joel's new daughter. Where and who is Ellie as an individual? It kind of bothers me that the writers gloss over this because Joel is the main character and it's like the world revolves around him and his trauma. curious if you see this too
In the game, it's never explicit that Joel tried to take his own life. It's hinted at through optional dialogue when Ellie refers to suicide as "the easy way out" and Joel replies "Trust me, it ain't easy", but that's as far as it goes.
Joel does mention he was in a field hospital right after the outbreak as well. Separate scene from the one you mentioned but Mazin and team pulled from both and expanded on them.
I like these small additions they added, I think that's how you do an adaption. Expand upon source material, don't take away. But I hope next season has more infected
Even in Joel’s monotone voice when he says “unhook her” you can hear he’s just completely disconnected, he has one goal, to get Ellie out of there by any means necessary.
I kinda agree with him, the world isn't worth saving not only nature is thriving but also most people are guilty in some way, there's cannibals, rapists, killers... Etc yes good people are everywhere but only a few i think they also didn't mention for some reason that ellie isn't the only immune person and that they failed multiple times ??!
I took Joel's behavior in the beginning as him trying extra hard to cheer her up or to pull Ellie out of the funk she's in, and has been since the David incident.
I took Ellie's distant behavior as a combination of her ordeal with David as well as her finally nearing their destination with the question of "this is it/what happens after?" weighing heavily on her mind.
I think in the beginning Joel is aware what is going on with Ellie and tries to comfort her. People tend to overtalk when someone they care for isn´t well they don´t know what to do about it. He tries to distract her with all the things he brings up. He also cheers her up by saying "I think you would be really good at it". He does that in the End to, when he tells her, that Sara would´ve liked her because she is funny.
And he tells Ellie this Story about his missed shot, again, because he is very aware of what is going on with Ellie. What he wants to say is " Things can get better".
@@LovedByYou no one said that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Some of us just interpreted that scene differently than she did and are explaining why.
@@LovedByYou the show writers literally talk about how Joel is chatty because he is trying to distract her and comfort her because she is struggling after David. I think the show writers would know what they created.
He's also being pretty unintrusive about it. Showing her he's there. "You seem quiet today" and then backing off. Multiple times in the show, Joel invites conversation and then backs off. Similar with the Sarah comments. I see him (awkwardly) communicating to Ellie that she's part of his family now. He would ideally, on an ongoing basis, make sure Ellie knows that she's not responsible for him, and she's loved for herself and not as a replacement Sarah. I just don't see the insidiousness in this that some people do. (And it's not like actions and motives can't be both selfless and self-serving at the same time.)
Joel listened to Bill. He saved the one person worth saving. Also Marlene didn't tell Ellie that she was going to die. Marlene didn't give Ellie a choice either.
THANK YOU. I love this channel, but I don’t know why she’s not acknowledging Marlene was the one who took away Ellie’s autonomy. There was no way Joel could have given Ellie a choice, because it was either “save her” or “let her be murdered”. There was no negotiating with the Fireflies to wake Ellie up and ask for her consent. It’s frankly a bit frustrating she’s placing all of the blame on Joel.
@@wynnyx7071 Yeah. The thing about being the hero is that you don't get to be the hero at some point. At that point, you do what you need to do, then go follow Ellie to the next life after the cure is made to say sorry.
They both didn't give her a choice out of selfish but reasonable fear. "What if Elle says something that we don't want her to say which would then absolutely make us look evil if we tried to force our decision on her afterwards?"
One of the other things that people miss is that the reason that Marlene didn't give Ellie a choice was *because they were not going to take no for an answer* It was very clear that it didn't matter what Ellie wanted, and if she'd have said "No, I would like to live" They wouldn't have let her stride out of that hospital. They were determined to try a cure, no matter the odds. (And a bit of a correction on y our comment, they *hadn't* tried it on others, Joel was lying about that as well.
Yes!! My thoughts exactly! It wasn’t so she’d “feel no fear or pain” like she says in the episode. Marlene had already decided way back at the beginning of the season that Ellie IS dying so they can try to make a cure.
As for all of the cure, I wonder why they simply didn't do a spinal tap and look for the markers. I doubt much the fungus is in her brain because she is immune, for gossakes. That bite in the arm may be the source of the markers. I guess the Fireflies lost a lot of good scientists.
I kind of tied it to Marlene's conscious. By not asking she took the middle ground where it would hurt but she could justify it for the outcome and make herself believe Ellie would have been ok with it. If she asked and Ellie agreed her conscious would be clear as Ellie made the decision but if she asked and Ellie did not agree it would be much harder on her conscious.
I know you said that Joel doesn't understand what happened to Ellie when we notice Ellie dissociated, but I felt like Joel was actually trying to lighten the mood because he infact suspected or knew what happened. We see Joel getting out of his comfort zone and actually initiate conversations with Ellie throughout this episode. He suggests the game, he suggests the pun book and he also opens up to her about his suicide attempt as well as Sarah which are two of the most deepest parts of his life. All this to show Ellie that she could move past the trauma she experienced and that he'll always be there for her. That's why when Ellie giggles in the giraffe scene you can see Joel smiling bc that's all he ever wanted. To see her happy and back to her old self. At the end you can see that Joel has finally taken that role as Ellie's father. And even when he lies about what happened to protect her. It was a decision any parent would easily make without hesitation. You can see that Joel has decided he can't lose another daughter. Even if he has to protect Ellie from herself. Something parents do all the time.
In the game, Joel does understand a lot more (but not all) of what happened with Ellie and David. In the Game he is the one that actually finds and stops her as she is completely out of it and wailing away at David's remains with the machete. He didn't just reunited with her outside in the snow as in the TV series. He goes into the burning lodge and finds her still hacking away at David.
@@Cg23sailor I guess some of us could sense it, even though it was done subtly in the show. I haven't played the game but I felt like Joel had some idea of what had happened.
I never realized the connection between Henry and Catheleen, and Joel and Marlene in the show, specifically their oppositions of holding a single person above the greater good. Thank you for providing this insight. I also missed the fact that Ellie not only wants to use her immunity to save the world, but also to make up for the loss of Riley, Sam, and Tess. Your reaction series has been incredibly insightful, and I'm excited to see your future videos. I wish you much success as a RUclipsr.
@@brachypelmasmith F.M. Dostoevsky "How can God allow an innocent child to suffer in anything. The harmony of society is not worth a single tear of a child"
Here’s the thing also - Marlene said it herself that Ellie wasn’t told what would happen. She wasn’t given a choice to sacrifice her life. Maybe she thought it was a possibility - but she was never explicitly told “you will die”.
I don't think Ellie ever thought it was a possibility that she would have to die. She believes the cure is in her blood, so I think she probably just expects them to take blood samples etc. Also, earlier in the episode she talks to Joel about following him anywhere he goes after they are done at the hospital. She has no idea.
@@bethanyjoyxo I think she definitely has survivors guilt - she wants her life to mean something. But not to give her life without absolutely certainty that it would make a difference.
If Marlene had told Ellie the truth and left it up to Ellie, what if Ellie said no? Do you really think the Fireflies would accept that and let her go?
When she said "I know why you're telling me this" I read it as as Joel seeing that she's traumatized and become so quiet and her personality isn't showing as much and that she's all in her thoughts and he used his own story to tell her that there is hope and that it gets better. In my mind what he was saying was "I experienced this huge trauma and loss and I thought there is nothing for me in the future, but it wasn't true" to let her know that it'll get better and what she's feeling isn't gonna last forever and she said "I know why you're telling me this" to let him now that she understands what he's trying to say. It's just my own understanding tho
I think a really important thing to remember when we discuss the morality of Joel's choice to save Ellie is the fact that the show has repeatedly told us (through the mouths of experts in the fields of both medicine and mycology) that there is no way to make a vaccine for something like Cordyceps. It's literally the first thing the show ever tells us, and it's reinforced again in the second episode to remind us. We're also shown that Joel has never believed that the Fireflies (or anyone else for that matter) are capable of making a vaccine. And it's a well-justified belief. Doctors couldn't manage it back when they had funding and resources, but the Fireflies are somehow gonna magically pull it off in a dingy moldy hospital with 20 year old drugs and equipment? Unlikely. Not to mention the fact that within literal hours of getting their hands on Ellie, the Fireflies decide to cut her brain out and kill her. She's their only hope for a potential vaccine against cordyceps, and they immediately decide to murder her. And it's not like they're killing Ellie with the absolute certainty that this will work either, they're doing it based on a completely unproven hypothesis. Which means that if it fails they've destroyed all possibilities for future research bc their only subject is dead. They don't even try anything else to learn more about how her immunity functions, no blood or plasma samples, no biopsy, no spinal tap, nothing. They don't tell her what they plan to do either, they just put her under with the intent for her to never wake up again, because that's easier than having to tell a kid that you're planning to murder them. Marlene talks to Joel about how "Ellie would have wanted this" bc "it's the right thing to do" and "will create a better world", but she has no way of knowing it will work or that dying for their cause is what Ellie actually would have wanted. Because they never fucking asked her in the first place, and it's not like they would have just accepted it if she'd said no either. Hell, even if they had asked her and she'd said yes, I personally don't think there's any justification for putting the weight of the entire world on the shoulders of a deeply traumatized 14 year old with survivor's guilt and a martyrdom complex, and then asking them to die for your cause. There is no possible way for Ellie to give informed consent in this situation-even if the Fireflies hadn't kidnapped, sedated, and tried to murder her-because she is a child and the situation itself is inherently coercive. Joel and Marlene are not equals in "taking Ellie's choice away", bc one of those paths is irreversible while the other isn't. If the Fireflies have doctors then there are gonna be other factions who do too, so it's not like the potential for a vaccine (to the extent that it even exists in this world, which is definitely up for debate) dies along with the Fireflies in that hospital. This is all without getting into the fact that even if the Fireflies by some miracle were able to create a vaccine from the cordyceps growing in Ellie's brain, they still don't have the infrastructure to mass produce or distribute it. It wouldn't be a magical cure rolled out to save all of mankind, it would just be another chip in their political war against fedra, and probably also a recruitment tool. Now, that ofc doesn't mean I think it's good that Joel massacred them all. Mass murder is obviously still fucked up. But he was put in a situation where his only options were to either fight his way to Ellie and get her to safety (or die trying), or to let the Fireflies murder her (which inevitably ends in his own death as well bc he won't survive the loss of another daughter). I definitely know what choice I would have made if I was in his shoes. All that being said, I do wish Joel hadn't lied to Ellie about it, and I think it was wrong of him to do so. However, I also understand why he did it. He wanted to protect her from the guilt and trauma of the situation, so she wouldn't believe that the only way her life could have meaning was if she'd died on that operating table. Parents sometimes lie to protect their kids, and it can be messy and ugly and morally grey as hell, but they usually do it out of love and a desire to keep them safe. Hell, the only reason Ellie is even alive in the first place is because her mother-who loved Ellie so much that she held a knife to her own throat for hours as she cradled her baby in her arms, just to make sure she wouldn't hurt her-looked Marlene right in the eye and lied to her about the fact that she cut the umbilical cord after she got bit. Joel and Anna both represent the depth and ferocity of a parent's love for their child, and the lengths they are willing to go to to keep them safe. And I personally can't fault either of them for their choices.
I agree completely. I have read so many comments that they should have, at the very least, asked Ellie what she wanted to do (and the Good Doctor here just said the same thing) but Ellie is a distraught, practically suicidal CHILD who believes that she is somehow bad and needs to do this to make up for what she has done. Asking her is not seeking consent, it is coercion. Anyone that can't convince a 14-year-old that they need to surrender their life to save the world isn't trying.
I also question how Marlene managed to get there way before Joel and Ellie. J & E have been traveling for months. Why’d Marlene send E off with J whom she herself claimed was “the last person she wanted to be indebted to “
i told myself i wasn’t gonna cry this episode. i lasted to “you’re so tough.” i lost my mother young too, and watching anna sing eighties music to her baby girl and hold her tight broke ne
I loved everything about the hospital massacre montage. I love that the sound is muffled, and we mainly just hear this music. And everytime the sound of the violence breaks through (like that one guy's scream when Joel stabs him), it is effective. It is essentially from Joel's perspective. He's almost disassociated. Because he is of a one-track mind. Nothing matters to him, these people don't matter to him. Only Ellie and her life matters to him. Everyone else is just an obstacle. Someone who needs to go down. He has no emotions or rage or anything against these people. They are simply in his way. Also glad that they didn't have him kill the nurses. He killed everyone who was a threat or in his way. The nurses were neither. Plus, the game REQUIRES the player to kill the surgeon and the nurses are optional.
When he starts murdering people with that cold emotionless detachment (actually in the previous episode) that’s when we see why his own brother thought he was evil, and why they weren’t sure they should invite him into their commune. His love for Ellie made him more emotionally vulnerable and empathetic, but it also brought out the cold killer in him when he’s retraumatized. Such a complicated situation.
@@rosemarybramante4503 I saw a comment in another thread that mentioned that when it comes to killing, Joel has achieved mastery, it is almost instinctual once he is triggered. But he broke that mind set when he spared the nurses.
I think what makes Joel's decision so compelling is that as easy as it is to criticize, I think everybody understands why he did it. And deep deep down, a lot of people know they would do that same thing to keep the person closest to them alive. I really can't wait to see what you think of Season 2's plot, assuming it follows the game. Loved your videos on this series!
@@MarieTheOstrich To be honest, me too. And if I can even be a little defensive about it, I think the surgery is unethical. I don't think the Fireflies were any more right than Me, you, or Joel regardless of their intentions.
@Ririten Yuyuten I think what does it, for me, is the dishonesty. As fucked up as it would have been to go through with it, if Ellie had known beforehand, gotten to come to terms with the idea and agree to it, and said goodbye, the surgery inevitably killing her would be her sacrificing herself willingly. This is a girl desperate to help being led along like a lamb to slaughter, being put under anesthesia without knowing that if the people she believes in have their way, she won't wake up and the man she loves like a father will be forced to lose another daughter. They took her choice and the ability to grant closure to Joel away because they were afraid she would flinch at the last minute.
True but if we weren’t joel in this world then we would also probably side mainly with the fireflies. As viewers it’s easy to choose which side we want to identify with but realistically we would make the choice that benefits us most and since most of us would not have known Ellie and we heard about a possible cure then we probably wouldn’t see as much as an issue with it But in the end Ellie is the one that should make the choice
@@TheAngryXenite In another world, if Joel still saw Ellie as cargo, he would let the Fireflies go even if he knew what they would do. I also agree that Ellie should have had a choice, with the Fireflies and Joel coz at the end of the day they both made a decision for her. At the same time I also understand why the Fireflies did it and also why Joel did it. As Neil said TLOU1 is the story of an irrational love parents have for their kid, that he was willing to give up his friends and family's life, damining his soul and mankind in exchange for one girl's life. There is no black and white in this story, just how we know we would probably do the same thing Joel did or even decide the same thing Marlene did. This story was meant to end in that moral ambiguity where people had to process it.
Both Joel and Marlene made choices on Ellie's behalf. The difference is that Marlene's choice would have killed her and Joel's gave her the opportunity to go on living and to make choices of her own in the future. Ellie had been told by people that she trusted and respected that her life only (or at least primarily) had meaning as the bearer for the 'cure'. Her survivor's guilt, her sense of loss and the trauma she felt over what she had been forced to do to survive was being employed against her by the cause provided to her by Marlene, and even then she wasn't sure that Ellie would make the choice she wanted her to. That's why she didn't tell her the procedure would kill her. Ellie wasn't actively suicidal, like Joel had been twenty years ago, but I think she felt it was okay if this was an actual suicide run, and that sacrificing herself was what was needed to atone for the deaths of the people she mentioned in her conversation with Joel. Joel's choice, bad though it may have been, gave her the opportunity to create a meaning in her life that wasn't put there by other people or by her own trauma, simply by giving her a life to live. In addition, greeting Joel and Ellie with a flash-bang, a rifle-butt to the skull and then whisking Ellie away to lethal surgery before Joel regained consciousness was probably the worst possible way to handle the situation. Or the best, if what you wanted was for Joel to think that you were a bunch of liars who didn't know what they were doing and was going to kill his daughter for a bullshit cause. As Bill said in his farewell letter; "That's why men like you and me are here: We have a job to do. And God help any motherfuckers who stand in our way". Marlene's handling of the situation was a surefire way to get Joel to go Terminator on everyone's asses. TLDR; I think Joel did the right thing. Maybe not for the right reasons, and he probably handled it about as badly as could be imagined, but it's not like he was graced with an abundance of great options in that moment.
The cure also wouldn’t have saved that many people. It would’ve just made a bunch of people like Ellie. FEDRA, raiders, zombies, and other future factions. The world is still effed. Ellie almost died countless times on their journey. Zombies rip people apart no matter what. The fireflies put Ellie under not giving her a choice or anything. They didn’t give her a choice or have Joel awake because they needed a cure for themselves to stay alive. They wanted to use their “cure” to overthrow FEDRA. For the doctor to not even talk to Ellie or Marlene about how she could’ve been immune to the effects of a bite or test her blood or anything is just retarded. They immediately put her in surgery. Joel doesn’t have all this in mind granted. He just wants his daughter. That conversation couldn’t happen though because Marlene and the Fireflies forced his hand. No conversation was had. Not with Ellie or Joel. Ellie is owed a conversation. Joel isn’t owed a conversation but he is however owed his deal that he made with Marlene. She didn’t hold her end of the bargain up for delivering Ellie. She just sent him on his way.
Ellie literally didn't have a choice here. If Marlene had told her everything and left the choice up to Ellie, what if Ellie said no? Do you really think the Fireflies would have accepted that and let her go? Of course not, they would have done the surgery anyway. So what would be the point of giving Ellie a choice that didn't matter?
"In addition, greeting Joel and Ellie with a flash-bang, a rifle-butt to the skull and then whisking Ellie away to lethal surgery before Joel regained consciousness was probably the worst possible way to handle the situation." The Fireflies who did this didn't know who Joel and Ellie were. They thought they were 2 strangers so they reacted to protect their base.
"I think Joel did the right thing. Maybe not for the right reasons, and he probably handled it about as badly as could be imagined, but it's not like he was graced with an abundance of great options in that moment." Joel's choice was right for him and him alone. He doomed the entire world to live in a world with Infected. But he didn't care about that. His entire world is now Ellie.
And this is why the story is so beloved by so many, it hits at the very core of what it means to be a human being in relationships with others. Every choice, every reaction, how we see ourselves and how we project our trauma has consequences for those around us.
The scene with Joel opening up is actually completely new. A very impactful change they made with the show. P.S. Love the reactions! Looking forward to future reactions and season 2 as well. Thanks so much :)
I don't necessarily agree that Joel didn't understand what Ellie was going through when she was disassociating. He was very patient with her when she was slow to respond, and his attempts at getting her to engage were always gentle and seemed more like his way of letting her know that he is there when she's ready to re-engage.
Just a small thing that I think is a really interesting detail: Ellie noticed earlier in the season that Joel can't hear out of his right ear. And the wound to his head is on the right side. Which means he lost his hearing in that ear because the gun was so close to his head when he tried to shoot himself.
A small interesting bit of information. The first episode of this series is titled "When you're lost in the Darkness" and this final episode is titled "Look for the Light"
Reminder, Joel never had an opportunity to give Ellie a choice. Given the sequence of events, he woke up, Marlene said they didnt give Ellie a choice, and he took action. There was no opportunity for Joel to give her a choice because she was about to be killed, after not being given a choice. Also, asking a minor to give up their life for the greater good, specifically after she is in such a depressive state, doesnt seem very moral to me. Ellie would almost welcome death to be done feeling how she does. That seems off to me.
It's fascinating how people keep making excuses for Joel's actions . Marlene made a bad a choice but a healthy person would have many scenarios to save Ellie without killing everyone and give Ellie the choice , Joel is not his right mind he doesn't see Ellie as an individual anymore, he see her as his own only his., his healer .so he trying to save himself from pain without her , . He did worse than Marlene he took her choice and all her future choices . he killed the doctor and Marlene so Ellie won't have to comeback to them and he lies so Ellie stay in Jackson and not go look for them because he knows she will He basically forcing her to in a relationship with him as a replacement for his daughter. It's disgusting honestly. Think about it if he was doing that for Ellie he would not kill everyone especially the doctor and Marlene he can just shoot them in the foot or something, wake up Ellie and tell her the truth if she wants to comeback to the firefly. And many other good person scenarios.
I HOPE Dr. Courtney missed the fact that the surgery was going to be MURDER. I hope she wouldn't condone giving this choice to 14yo recent trauma survivor who'd been led to believe she has a purpose/obligation to give her life.
@@hayderneamah1323 I had the exact same reaction as you and Dr Courtney when I first watched this episode. I thought Joel’s decision to lie was selfish and it was gross how he just wanted to keep Ellie as this surrogate, sort of like David. It took me some time to process before I came around. Like others pointed out, Marlene didn’t give Ellie any choice either. She says “this is what Ellie would’ve wanted” but 1) she could’ve just friggin asked Ellie before knocking her unconscious 2) Ellie is just a kid, she’s in a really dark place and feeling all this survivor’s guilt. Ellie says “after everything I’ve done, it can’t be for nothing” not understanding that she didn’t do anything wrong. She doesn’t owe the world anything for just surviving as best she can. If I were her parent I wouldn’t have let her make that choice for herself either. Joel made a decision and followed through. Killing everyone was super messed up ofc but he was right, if any of the fireflies had been left alive, they would’ve hunted her down. I can’t say Joel made the 'right' decision and I do think it was partially for selfish reasons, but I don't think it was purely selfish anymore. Joel took full responsibility for Ellie as a parent. Being the parent means sometimes you have to be the bad guy and deal with the consequences. He understood that Ellie was in a horrible mental state and if she were to khs because he told her the truth, then it really would’ve all been for nothing. Also Marlene sucks more the longer you think about it...she knew from the very beginning that she was sending Ellie to her death. Joel did better by Ellie's mom than Marlene smh
@@hayderneamah1323 I am interested to hear how you think Joel had, "...many scenarios to save Ellie..." Two men armed with automatic weapons were marching him out, with orders to shoot him if he resisted> You really think he could have just convinced them to let him go get Ellie out of the operating room? Or that he could have convinced Marlene to let Ellie recover from the flash grenade long enough to hear what they planned and give her consent? This was Marlene's plan from the beginning, Ellie was always intended to be killed once the Fireflies learned she was immune.
Pedro's Joel definitely opens up more than video game Joel and I'm glad for that. He was a lot more vague about his attempt on his life. Like "blink and you'll miss it" vague. In the show, Joel makes his feelings towards Ellie more obvious to her, which I really loved. Thank you for reacting to this series! Looking forward to more!
It's hard for me not to be on Joel's side at the end of this, with just how badly Marlene handled it He's not even given the chance to say goodbye and they jump straight into trying to bully him out of the hospital We aren't shown a conversation with Ellie consenting to her own death, which she probably would have with her survivors guilt, but Joel can't know that And they aren't even going to attempt any less invasive options before destroying the only immune person they've ever seen?! I have to question the credentials of this doctor Like you say, Ellie deserves a choice, an informed choice And we and Joel don't get to see her make that choice
I don't think that Joel doesn't get it. I think he knows that she's gone through something and he recognizes that her joy and brightness are slipping away and he's trying so desperately to help her find it again. She's withdrawing into herself and he doesn't know what to do, and probably doesn't trust himself to find the right words to say or feels like maybe she wouldn't want to talk about it and instead he's overcompensating by trying extra hard to play with her or joke with her or open up about his past and his daughter because he wants to connect with her again. You can see it on his face when she finally starts to be happy with the giraffes.
At the very end when Ellie is confronting Joel, she tells him about Riley and their plan to "lose their minds together all poetic and sh*t," in the game she ends it with, "I'm still waiting for my turn." I believe the writers intended this episode to be about Ellie having suicidal ideations (or at the very least is eager to put herself in harm's way) as a result of her survivor's guilt and recent trauma. That Joel noticed it after the giraffe scene, so the very next scene he confessed about the time he "couldn't have been more ready" to die, and how it can get better. "The reason I'm telling you this," he says, wasn't because he wanted her to know she was important to him, but because he wanted her to know she can get past her own rough patch. That it's only temporary. At the very end he tells her "but if you just keep going, you'll find something new to fight for." Joel is trying to buy Ellie time to heal. Maybe he's wrong, but this is what Joel believes Ellie is going through.
Really grateful for your insights and wisdom regarding this show, I’ve learned more about psychology AND my favorite story. Thank you :) Regarding Joel’s suicide attempt, it’s not explicitly stated in the game, but there is a moment where they find the bodies of people who ended their own lives. Ellie says “I guess they took the easy way out”, and Joel says “it ain’t easy”, so it’s implied he knows how they felt.
Loved all your videos. What I wish more reactionary vids would mention is that Marlene didn’t give Ellie a choice, either. Even if she agreed to it, she would’ve wanted to have talked with Joel one last time. Also, in the game it’s very clear the chances of making a cure weren’t great and others have died from previous experiments. As a father of two little girls, I would’ve done the same. All of it. I couldn’t see any other parent not doing what Joel did. That’s too hard of an ask for someone that is your world and not even be 100% it’s going to work.
One of the few types of reaction videos I actually watch. Where the person reacting has something interesting to say rooted in their own expertise to give new context to the content. Thank you.
I’m just wondering how you feel about Marlene not giving Ellie a choice about being a sacrificial lamb? Marlene might have known Ellie’s mom but she doesn’t have a relationship with Ellie. Joel is doing what any father would do in his situation which is defend his family.
I can't wait for your reactions for season 2 (and possibly season 3) let me tell you it'll be 10x much more intense! Love your channel and content, thank you for what you do
When Joel says "It wasn't time that did it..." (referenceing the feelings that made him attempt suicide), Pedro nailed the look, his facial epression drew tears to my eyes, because without another word I knew in my heart exactly what he was thinking (portraying). I do not know what makes a good actor, but if I am ever asked, I would point to this scene.
This is the best analysis I have seen on The Last of Us. The game has been out for almost ten years. I've seen many people analyze the ending. This was incredibly insightful. Hit the like button people! More people need to see this video!
One thing I have been struck with each week is how you have been able to foresee events and character interactions based on analysis of their existing mindsets and actions. I think it speaks both to your insight into human behavior, as well as the show’s ability to portray very real character motivations and mental states. Enjoyed the series (both yours and the tv show) and thanks for what you’ve put out into the world.
This is easily the best comment on any of her videos that helps me explain (as someone who thinks the game was life-changing) why I adore and appreciate these videos.
This addition they did with Joel's scar from his failed suicide attempt is just sooooo good. It resulted in probably my most favorite scene in the whole season when they have the discussion about it and Joel finally tells her how she is the one that got him out of that hole he dig himself in during those 20 years. I might be biased because this is one of those moments that is not in the game and completely surprised me and hit me like a truck... but _damn_, what a good scene. Loved how they introduced this minor detail about him in episode three, had him lie about it because of course he would never be ready to open up like that to Ellie at that point, and hit us with this payoff in the finale. Made me even more emotional than the moment in the game Ellie gives Joel a photo of Sarah she stole from Maria, which it kind of replaces.
I think the ordeal with David has affected Ellie in numerous ways. The ordeal itself was obviously very traumatic, but I also think it triggered incredible survivor's guilt. As you see in the final lines of the episode, it's something she's struggled with for a long time. And every time she survives something new and awful, I think it opens that wound back up. I think it's especially difficult for her, because everyone who has died, has died either directly or indirectly as a result of being around Ellie-through no fault of Ellie, but still. Riley died taking Ellie out for a night of fun. Tess died transporting Ellie. Henry and Sam died sneaking out of an occupied area, because they met up with Joel and Ellie. Death seems to follow Ellie, and she keeps surviving. And I think the idea of this cure for the infection potentially not working and her journey possibly being for nothing is weighing on her. I think she views her immunity as the one thing she can do to redeem all the loss that has accompanied her. There's actually a line that was in the game cut out in the show that I thought would've been cool to have in there. At the end in the game Ellie says to Joel "I'm still waiting for my turn..." And then Joel took that choice away from her(as did the Fireflies). There are no winners here. Such is the case in a post apocalyptic world, I guess. The cool thing about the plot is Ellie and Joel are both trying to avoid blaming themselves for things. Ellie wants to do something so she no longer has to blame herself for those who died helping her. Saving the world with a cure is her chance at redemption. Even if those deaths weren't her fault, she thinks they were. And Joel wants to do something to avoid blaming himself for the loss of his daughter and saving Ellie is his chance at redemption. The giraffe scene is beautiful. Proof beauty still exists in a destroyed world. For Ellie, the beauty lies in the giraffe. For Joel, it lies in Ellie in that scene.
I've loved this story since the game was first released. I've listened to the game creator talk about it and now the show co creator talk about it on as many platforms as they’ve appeared. Now with the show being released, you are the only person besides the creators who has provided so many new insights on what is happening in the minds of these characters. I don’t know if you listen to the official podcasts at all but your reads are so often in line with the creators and you’re often even more adept at explaining from a psychological standpoint. You are truly gifted at analyzing these stories and I hope more and more people notice and this channel takes you to places you never imagined.
ashley was amazing as anna. having game ellie give birth to show ellie was so beautiful to me, like she’s passing on the torch to bella. just thinking about it makes me emotional.
As soon as I discovered your channel my most anticipated analysis of yours is of Joel’s decisions at the end of the story. Excellent stuff thank you for doing this series.
It’s interesting that you noted that Joel essentially telling Ellie that she is his lifeline is a lot of responsibility to put on a child, because in episode 5 Joel makes the observation to Henry that survival in the apocalypse is easier for kids because they don’t have anyone relying on them. Now Joel has placed that weight on Ellie and their dynamic has changed.
@@sgtmian Except, with Ellie still alive, there can be additional conversations to clarity these things. Joel as presented would absolutely not want her to feel obligated to live for him. He wants to her to find her own purpose.
You were my favorite reactor to this show EASILY! The observations you made were awesome and deeper than anyone else's that I've seen! Really appreciate you and your expertise!
I just went through and watched each one of your last of us reaction videos. It's so interesting to hear the insight of a mental health professional on something like this. This show has been on my mind constantly and I feel it poses so many questions that many other shows do not. Anyway, you have a new subscriber and I look forward to more videos
Aren't you missing one important detail? Marlene wasn't giving Ellie a choice either. She was going to kill her for a possible chance of a cure that they didn't really know would work. In the operating room, they questioned whether there was enough power to even perform the surgery. Ellie didn't know she had to die for the cure, and that choice wasn't given to her.
Heck, she didn't even know she was going into surgery. Her reaction waking up in the car suggests she didn't even know they found the fireflies or that she was drugged.
Just realized the conversation Anna had with Marlene begging her to take Ellie was also very similar to the conversation Tess had with Joel in the museum after it was revealed Tess had been bit.
Thank you for sharing your insight with us, it enhances the media you cover by providing additional context to the characters and their decisions that might otherwise be missed or misinterpreted. I found you through The Last of Us, and I watched your other videos soon after (I also recommended them to my friends who watched those shows). I watched Fleabag years ago and enjoyed it, so I look forward to your reaction and insightful commentary!
One of the few break downs that really seemed to get at what was going on here with Joel. Most seem to just treat his march through the hospital like a heroic action scene. To me it felt like the death of the man that was up until this point starting to heal. I can only imagine the effect these events have on Ellie. I could see the potential cure, regardless of its cost, and the trust she let herself invest in these two people that was betrayed may nearly break her. In a way it feels like this show has been about Ellie becoming Joel, in all the worst ways.
You did an excellent job analysing and commenting every scene. Personally (when I was watching this serie) I have no one nearby to talk about this serie as much as I wanted or sharing my view from a particularly scene that I liked but instead I got to know your channel and I'm glad that I did. It's was so cool listening to you bc I'm studying psychology and I'm happy when I see 2 (or more) differents things that I like are mixed everytime (In this case, game-series and psychology) I'm looking forward to more upcoming videos!
Adored your coverage of this series. So much more to dive into whenever we get to season 2. So looking forward to your Fkeabag analysis also. One of my fave shows in recent years. Fleabag herself being one of the most fleshed out and real characters I've seen, maybe ever
god damn you are good at this. bringing back up when david said "Love has no fear" was a call-back from beyond the 3 point line. are you like the boss at your place? cause you should be
One behind-the-scenes thing that I liked about this show and this episode in particular is having the voice actors appear, like in this episode, they had the voice actress of Ellie play Ellie's mom.
What gets me about the giraffe interaction is that Joel doesn’t have much interest in the giraffe his eyes are on Ellie, he watches her… as a parent, my greatest joy has always been in watching that first reaction of my children to honestly to anything is just everything!! It is probably why I am attracted to reactions videos. I really enjoy the expression of a face that experiences something for the first time. I get Joel’s reaction, I understand…. But my total betray is when he talks to Elie and lies to he her… she knows he is lying but excepts his lie because she haas to… she can never trust him even though she loves him him
i knew you would have a balanced view of this show and be able to see all sides, thank you for that. seeing you react to this has been so great, thank you 💗
aaaa i’m so excited to hear your thoughts on this ending because it’s a topic of debate in the fandom . i’m also excited to hear your thoughts when season 2 comes out because there is sooo much to analyze there too!
Found your channel from The Last Of Us. They just confirmed season 2 and 3. Will be based around the 2nd game. Really learned a lot and you did a great job clearly explaining and educating.
Just wanted to say I always love hearing your thoughts each week, you provide such great new insight into the characters that I’ve loved for 10+ years. Excited to watch this on my lunch break later.
Enjoyed watching you do this series! They had ellie's voice actor from the game play Anna, her mom. The symbolism of the game ellie giving birth to the show ellie... I loved that they did that. And as a mother of 2, that opening scene was a lot to watch. Can't wait for you to do season 2!
listening to you in these last couple of reactions of TLOU have reminded me of the many conversations i have with my Daughter, (next to me in our Avatar) who is also an LCSW and recently got her PhD 😘and the nature of how the two of you talk is so very similar in tone, verb and intent. SW are so undervalued and so needed as this country continues to be in denial of the mental health crisis so many of us suffer silently with and sometimes we see the aftermath on the news. thanks to both of you Ladies for what you two do for all our betterment. 🤩🙏 i am also a big fan of Georgia Dow who also does therapist reaction videos. all of you Ladies are amazing! oh yeah, Subscribed!!!😉
Just a little fun fact from someone who played the games. Ellie keeps a note in her backpack from her mom, Anna. At one point in the game, Ellie can pull it out of her bag and her response to it is: “I’m trying to make you proud.”
OMG I'm so excited that you're going to continue Fleabag! I can't wait for those episodes. I've loved your reactions to this show, most notably the episode "Kin". You added so much context to some of the conservations in that episode that I completely missed on first viewing. In terms of Joel's attempted suicide, the game very vaguely makes a reference to it and it's so vague that it's easy to miss.
I think Joel shares with Ellie to let her know that things can always get better eventually and that experiencing deep trauma isn't the end and that she doesn't need to try to do what he did
Thanks for your reaction videos! Your articulation and analysis really helps me identify what it is I'm feeling while watching the show. I'm really excited for fleabag!
In the game, they imply that he may have contemplated suicide,but it was never out right said and was left to interpretation. (In the game, they come across 2 people who look like they have committed suicide and Ellie says “they took the easy way out huh?”And Joel Replies “Trust me, it ain’t easy”)
What Joel does, I want to relate it back to Henry. “I am the bad guy, because I did a bad guy thing.” The reason Joel could do these bad guy things is because he’s so terrified of the alternative that he can as you say, dissociate. The way he shoots his way through the hospital with dispassion and callousness, we know he’s an emotional person, a vulnerable person, even a compassionate one, but as is the point of this show… Love can make you do amazing things… and love can make you do horrible things, even to whoever it is you love. Because believe it or not, even Joel’s decision to lie to Ellie is one that is for her sake in his mind. As Neil Druckmann put it, we’ve seen this progression of what Joel is willing to sacrifice for Ellie’s sake, to protect her and not go through the horror of losing her. And in the end he’s willing to give up the world to keep her safe and what Marlene makes him realize actively, she’d want this. And so Joel’s final sacrifice? He’s willing to lie to her and jeopardize their entire relationship just to protect her. And yet this intense love he exhibits takes the form of selfishness because it’s all about HIS pain, not hers. Because she will always be in pain without knowing the truth and she KNOWS she doesn’t know the truth and that Joel is keeping it from her. All she’ll ever be able to do is fake being happy until she starts being happy on accident, and any hairtrigger could send her spiralling again. All she can do is dissociate from the pain. Better spend the next few years prepping, because the next part of this story is gonna be rough.
I would like to thank you for the insight you've brought with this series, which have elevated my viewing experience. Honestly I've been looking forward to your videos more than the actual show. As a fan of the games, especially part 2, knowing the story intimately it's been more of a connect the dots and comparing one medium against the other. On the whole i'm satisfied with the choices they made regarding the adaptation. Here's hoping you are still doing these videos when season 2 rolls around. Again thank you and keep fighting the good fight.
Unintentionally passing down the coping skill of just shutting things out and ignoring problems is like EXACTLY me and my dad but the only difference- when he compartmentalizes he eventually stops and takes the time to deal with what he had to ignore in the moment, but for me- I do not know how to deal with it, I do not want to deal with it, and it seems everything in my life has been pushed down so much that now for that past year I’ve been just a constant volcano of anxiety or panic attacks and I still don’t know how to deal with it, all I can do is put it aside, cuz anytime it comes up all I get is another attack, and then I’m back to trying to forget
Fun fact: The actress who played Ellie's mom in the show is the voice actress for Ellie in the game. The call backs in this show to me feel more like an homage as opposed to fan service.. Thank you again for your interpretation of these shows. I feel like all I do is say thank you but I truely glad that you do these videos for us. It helps me process some of the complex themes that I normally wouldn't.
What an analysis; I'm in awe. I only played the games for the first time in 2021 so haven't been around the discussion nearly as long as others, but I can say this was one of the most insightful, intelligent and thorough takes I've seen. You'll have your work cut out for you next season!
Thank you so much for these analyses. This story and these characters have been on my mind so much in the past 10 years. You put into words so many thoughts and feelings I've also had about it and at the same time managed to give so much more insight into these characters and their motivations. I didn't think my appreciation for what they portrayed in the game and now also in the show could get bigger, but your videos have made me love the story even more. Again, thanks! Can't wait for season 2.
thank you for much for these reactions, I've watched them all now. I feel like I can tell what you are like in session and it is very comfy feeling. can't wait to keep watching what you do next!
That heavy moment with Joel and Ellie in the pop-up medical camp wasn't in the game. instead, he opens up about his experience after losing Sarah, and seeing so many others who have lost people, so he knew he wasn't the only one, but it didn't quell his sense of anger and grief. He still had Tommy, and during those days of them surviving together, Joel leaned into the brutality because it helped him and Tommy survive, and it likely was to get out his anger at humanity ant the infected for taking away Sarah. Joel wanting to off himself is purely from the show, as is the scar on his temple.
Am I crazy? They do say why Joel is telling her, "Time heals all wounds I guess". He's simply trying to tell Elllie "I know your hurting right now but you'll be ok, I was hurting too and I'm still here"
I think there's a lot to talk about here. - Medically, there probably was some non-fatal to get *something* that could be used for a vaccine (do we just chalk it up to entertainment logic, or is it a sign that the Fireflies are sort of incompetent? and does it matter if they're incompetent?) - Ellie should have been given a choice. But is a 14-year-old in a spot to make that decision? What about one suffering from PTSD? - Did Joel and Ellie love each other, or just trauma-bond? What's the difference, is there a difference, where does it become unhealthy, etc.? - Is it ever ok to lie? Very fascinating story.
So excited about all of your reactions! 😊😊 Have you considered doing like a closing post-watch video, with some comments that may be a bit complementary? Can't wait to see you watch more stuff, I'm really glad I found your channel 😊😊
One of the key differences here compared to in game, is that when the fireflies happen upon Ellie in this moment in game, she's actually unconscious due to a series of events that leads to her drowning. And Joel's actually trying to resuscitate her when he gets knocked out by the fireflies. So that being said, she may have been revived somewhat in an incohesive state by the fireflies then prepped right away for surgery. No time for conversing. It may have spared Marlene the guilt of asking such a question of Ellie, a little girl whom she had promised her mother to protect. The mother also being her best friend, Anna. The Ellie that we know is also world's apart from the one we saw in the beginning with Marlene. This Marlene doesn't know Ellie as we do, so perhaps she still looks at Ellie as a child who's not capable of understanding something like the greater good and self sacrifice. This notion is reinforced in the TV adaption in that we don't see Ellie get knocked out at all in the skirmish with the fireflies, she's just dragged away. Despite being fully conscious, she is never told or asked anything about what is going to happen. Otherwise Marlene would have have just told Joel that Ellie agreed to it. So we can actually assume from this that she is either knocked out later, or drugged prior to her ending up on the surgery table. How could Ellie, the problematic girl who grew up in quarantine most her life know about the ways of the world, Marlene might think. When in actuality through being exposed to people and their stories like Riley, Tess, Bill & Frank, Sam & Henry, and David, she has become incredibly self aware. In the end, Ellie wanted to go through with making the cure. Whatever it takes. She doesn't want all of the deaths up until this point, all the suffering and trauma she and others had to endure, to be for nothing. That is her choice. And also in the end, it is the choice that she is ultimately denied. By Marlene. And by Joel. Marlene doesn't trust Ellie enough to say yes, and she doesn't want to be put into a hurtful position of forcing it upon her, juxtaposed with how she was with Anna. Whereas Joel inversely believes that Ellie would most certainly say yes, but doesn't want to lose his reason for living. In the end these are basically two people who care deeply for Ellie, but have interesting ways of showing it.
I found it interesting that Joel mentioned Ellie was quiet "today" and not for the past several weeks/months it took them to get to Salt Lake City. It's possible that she's just having a bad mental health day, but the fact that they're nearly at their goal seems relevant. It reminds me so much of when you're in a depression and bind all your hopes on one thing changing-- "if I can just get a job, I won't be depressed anymore," "if I could find a steady partner, I won't feel bad anymore," etc. But when you actually get to that goal, and your depression doesn't feel any better, you feel even more awful. Ellie has been putting herself through absolute hell, watching good people die around them and having to kill people and infected, all for the purpose of saving the entire world. Now that she's right at her goal, I wonder if she's realizing she doesn't feel any better. Like maybe she thought those lives lost (Riley, Tess, Henry, Sam...) would feel "worth it," but they just don't.
This is one that I've truly been waiting for. About to watch now. Hope everyone has enjoyed this journey and looking forward to how ppl took this in, and take in the future of the series....things happen. :-).
Thank you. Another great video. This episode was brilliant and gut wrenching at the same time. I felt so sorry for them both when Joel lied to Ellie at the end. I’ve not played the games but you can tell it was the start of the end of their relationship. Remember when Tommys wife said to Ellie “the only ones who can betray us are the ones we trust”? I absolutely loved fleabag when it came out so I’m looking forward to watching your videos on that too.
I dont think joel "didnt get it". I much rather would say: he didnt know what to do. He wants to help her, getting to her old self. But how does someone do that. Especially joel, like u mentioned it, is probably somewhat ill equiped with things like emotions and how to handle it.
Even a peaceful world doesn't mean anything to Joel if he has live without Ellie because he has lost so many loved one's. It's really brilliant writing because you understand both sides. Not to mention the acting is perfect from Pedro and Bella
![The Last of Us 1x9: Look for the Light is Satisfying and Frustrating [Blind Reaction]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QFkiWSbCoQc/mqdefault.jpg)
UPDATED COMMENT: LET'S TALK ABOUT MARLENE. I did not realize she did not give Ellie a choice either when it came to the decision. In really any potential case other than Ellie agreeing to the fatal surgery, it makes sense what Joel did. In a way, it is him ensuring she is provided a choice. At the same time, the destruction of so many others' lives to save one is one of the major themes in the show. Now, one thing I did NOT know, is that they had tried this surgery multiple times in the past (with other immune individuals???) and the surgery failed. With Ellie being a 14yo child, consent is very important right now. Marlene not giving Ellie the choice to go through with a fatal surgery is a major problem and frankly, one she deserved to make on her own.
I can't believe it's over! 😢Please see the description for resources. ❤ If there is something missing from this episode that you'd like me to comment on let me know and I'll try and answer it in the comments or in next week's video. Thank you for being here! 👇
15:05
It is hinted in the game that Joel tried to kill himself but it was never confirmed, until now. All this conversation is new tho, it's not in the game.
Thank you for reacting to this show, hope to see your reactions and analysis of season 2, so much love from Argentina ♥
Now you ended this one (I loved it! And will miss) i want suggest to you watch The Extraordinary Attorney Woo Young Woo is about a autistic attorney and is very sensitive and i think you will loved the psychologist aspects about every episode is one diferente case. Seriously consider watch please 🥺😌
I don't know if you missed it or just didn't bring it up, but Marlene specifically said she didn't tell Ellie what was going to happen. She didn't respect her first, She didn't let her say no, and you know she wouldn't have taken no for an answer if that was the answer.. She was willing to sacrifice a child, without said child's consent, based on a GUESS. "Our Doctor THINKS..." He's never met Ellie, never examined her, definitely hasn't done a spinal tap or likely even any blood work to prove his hypothesis. heck, they didn't even shave her head during prep. The Fact is, the Fireflies are completely unequipped to do what they plan. They lack the knowledge, experience, and infrastructure, and even any certainty. But they have a chronic savior syndrome. Joel and Marlene were both Selfish, but I don't think what Joel did actually changed anything. The world is done. Society is broken beyond repair, and a cure isn't going to fix it. Like Tess said 'Being immune doesn't stop you from being ripped apart." To me the only real thing Joel did that was wrong was lying to Ellie, but it's totally understandable why he did.
In the beginning Joel actually understand what's going on with Ellie and he tried really hard to cheer her up constantly worried that she might not be there in her anymore until the giraffe that he see she's still in there that's why he's smile
thanks for your commentary! the idea of agency and choice has always been a theme of the story but the show made this more apparent in other ways. I think because the relationship between them had less time to develop than in the game, the writers were more on the nose with the direction of their relationship ("time didn't heal it", Joel comparing Sarah and Ellie more, etc), and as a result, some criticize it for feeling unearned or too "forced." I love this game/story but I can't help but see how over the course of their journey, Ellie's identity is kind of minimized. People say Joel taught her everything, or she is mini Joel. And then she is either the "cure" or Joel's new daughter. Where and who is Ellie as an individual? It kind of bothers me that the writers gloss over this because Joel is the main character and it's like the world revolves around him and his trauma. curious if you see this too
In the game, it's never explicit that Joel tried to take his own life. It's hinted at through optional dialogue when Ellie refers to suicide as "the easy way out" and Joel replies "Trust me, it ain't easy", but that's as far as it goes.
Joel does mention he was in a field hospital right after the outbreak as well. Separate scene from the one you mentioned but Mazin and team pulled from both and expanded on them.
I like these small additions they added, I think that's how you do an adaption. Expand upon source material, don't take away. But I hope next season has more infected
It was definitely implied in the game. Glad they expanded on it tho and ended up giving us a character moment that hit as hard as "baby girl"
yup I'm replaying the game and came across that bathroom scene the other day.
The show was amazing, BUT it was MUCH less subtle than the game. It holds your hand and walks you through things far more than the game
Even in Joel’s monotone voice when he says “unhook her” you can hear he’s just completely disconnected, he has one goal, to get Ellie out of there by any means necessary.
I kinda agree with him, the world isn't worth saving not only nature is thriving but also most people are guilty in some way, there's cannibals, rapists, killers... Etc yes good people are everywhere but only a few i think they also didn't mention for some reason that ellie isn't the only immune person and that they failed multiple times ??!
@@zizojaezekeom3565 updated comment: they never found another immune person, joel just said that as a lie
I took Joel's behavior in the beginning as him trying extra hard to cheer her up or to pull Ellie out of the funk she's in, and has been since the David incident.
Me too.
This
He says "you're extra quiet today" so she's been having good and bad days.
I took Ellie's distant behavior as a combination of her ordeal with David as well as her finally nearing their destination with the question of "this is it/what happens after?" weighing heavily on her mind.
Exactly
"Seeing Ellie's mom throughout the series through Ellie" is interesting because Anna is played by the same lady that played Ellie in the game.
Also, Laura Bailey, who played Abby in the second game made a cameo as one of the nurses in this episode.
@@Khomuna But she made that cameo not because of Abby, but because she also voices one of the nurses in the game.
well, that scene is the "birth" of her character, it's nice for her to be there to see it. Just like Ashley was there to see Ellie's 'birth'
I knew it. I was like "is that ellie?"
And it's wild how much Ashley Johnson and Bella Ramsey happen to resemble one another!
I think in the beginning Joel is aware what is going on with Ellie and tries to comfort her. People tend to overtalk when someone they care for isn´t well they don´t know what to do about it. He tries to distract her with all the things he brings up. He also cheers her up by saying "I think you would be really good at it". He does that in the End to, when he tells her, that Sara would´ve liked her because she is funny.
And he tells Ellie this Story about his missed shot, again, because he is very aware of what is going on with Ellie. What he wants to say is " Things can get better".
she's a therapist, she knows what shes talking about
@@LovedByYou no one said that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Some of us just interpreted that scene differently than she did and are explaining why.
@@LovedByYou the show writers literally talk about how Joel is chatty because he is trying to distract her and comfort her because she is struggling after David. I think the show writers would know what they created.
He's also being pretty unintrusive about it. Showing her he's there. "You seem quiet today" and then backing off. Multiple times in the show, Joel invites conversation and then backs off. Similar with the Sarah comments. I see him (awkwardly) communicating to Ellie that she's part of his family now. He would ideally, on an ongoing basis, make sure Ellie knows that she's not responsible for him, and she's loved for herself and not as a replacement Sarah. I just don't see the insidiousness in this that some people do.
(And it's not like actions and motives can't be both selfless and self-serving at the same time.)
I find myself waiting so impatiently for your reactions every week for this show.
Aww that's so nice! I hope you enjoy this one. ❤
That makes two of us!
Literally same.
Same.
same
Joel listened to Bill. He saved the one person worth saving.
Also Marlene didn't tell Ellie that she was going to die. Marlene didn't give Ellie a choice either.
THANK YOU. I love this channel, but I don’t know why she’s not acknowledging Marlene was the one who took away Ellie’s autonomy. There was no way Joel could have given Ellie a choice, because it was either “save her” or “let her be murdered”. There was no negotiating with the Fireflies to wake Ellie up and ask for her consent. It’s frankly a bit frustrating she’s placing all of the blame on Joel.
@@ethanahmu6149 Agreed.
That they were so hungry for a cure they didn't let her know beforehand is so wrong.
Ellie might have said yes.
@@wynnyx7071 Yeah. The thing about being the hero is that you don't get to be the hero at some point. At that point, you do what you need to do, then go follow Ellie to the next life after the cure is made to say sorry.
They both didn't give her a choice out of selfish but reasonable fear.
"What if Elle says something that we don't want her to say which would then absolutely make us look evil if we tried to force our decision on her afterwards?"
They also drugged her without her consent to achieve it. When Joel mentioned drugs in the car she was surprised.
One of the other things that people miss is that the reason that Marlene didn't give Ellie a choice was *because they were not going to take no for an answer* It was very clear that it didn't matter what Ellie wanted, and if she'd have said "No, I would like to live" They wouldn't have let her stride out of that hospital. They were determined to try a cure, no matter the odds. (And a bit of a correction on y our comment, they *hadn't* tried it on others, Joel was lying about that as well.
Yes!! My thoughts exactly! It wasn’t so she’d “feel no fear or pain” like she says in the episode. Marlene had already decided way back at the beginning of the season that Ellie IS dying so they can try to make a cure.
As for all of the cure, I wonder why they simply didn't do a spinal tap and look for the markers. I doubt much the fungus is in her brain because she is immune, for gossakes. That bite in the arm may be the source of the markers.
I guess the Fireflies lost a lot of good scientists.
I completely agree. They never would've let her leave!
They did not know it would kill her until she got to the hospital.
I kind of tied it to Marlene's conscious. By not asking she took the middle ground where it would hurt but she could justify it for the outcome and make herself believe Ellie would have been ok with it. If she asked and Ellie agreed her conscious would be clear as Ellie made the decision but if she asked and Ellie did not agree it would be much harder on her conscious.
I know you said that Joel doesn't understand what happened to Ellie when we notice Ellie dissociated, but I felt like Joel was actually trying to lighten the mood because he infact suspected or knew what happened. We see Joel getting out of his comfort zone and actually initiate conversations with Ellie throughout this episode. He suggests the game, he suggests the pun book and he also opens up to her about his suicide attempt as well as Sarah which are two of the most deepest parts of his life. All this to show Ellie that she could move past the trauma she experienced and that he'll always be there for her. That's why when Ellie giggles in the giraffe scene you can see Joel smiling bc that's all he ever wanted. To see her happy and back to her old self. At the end you can see that Joel has finally taken that role as Ellie's father. And even when he lies about what happened to protect her. It was a decision any parent would easily make without hesitation. You can see that Joel has decided he can't lose another daughter. Even if he has to protect Ellie from herself. Something parents do all the time.
I agree. I think that's the reason because he said too her that he tried to killing himself.
@@nataliazart Yeah. He told her about his own past trauma to show her that you could move past it.
In the game, Joel does understand a lot more (but not all) of what happened with Ellie and David.
In the Game he is the one that actually finds and stops her as she is completely out of it and wailing away at David's remains with the machete. He didn't just reunited with her outside in the snow as in the TV series. He goes into the burning lodge and finds her still hacking away at David.
@@Cg23sailor I guess some of us could sense it, even though it was done subtly in the show. I haven't played the game but I felt like Joel had some idea of what had happened.
This. I literally had to turn this video off because her comments were so flippant and off base.
I never realized the connection between Henry and Catheleen, and Joel and Marlene in the show, specifically their oppositions of holding a single person above the greater good. Thank you for providing this insight.
I also missed the fact that Ellie not only wants to use her immunity to save the world, but also to make up for the loss of Riley, Sam, and Tess. Your reaction series has been incredibly insightful, and I'm excited to see your future videos. I wish you much success as a RUclipsr.
you can put that entire cathleen speech at joel. Kids die, Joel. Kids die all the time. Is she that important to you? Is she worth ... everything?
@@brachypelmasmith F.M. Dostoevsky "How can God allow an innocent child to suffer in anything. The harmony of society is not worth a single tear of a child"
@John Cedar the only thing is I think that Ellie would accept her sacrifice, but I don't think there is any way Joel would have gone with it
Here’s the thing also - Marlene said it herself that Ellie wasn’t told what would happen. She wasn’t given a choice to sacrifice her life. Maybe she thought it was a possibility - but she was never explicitly told “you will die”.
I don't think Ellie ever thought it was a possibility that she would have to die. She believes the cure is in her blood, so I think she probably just expects them to take blood samples etc. Also, earlier in the episode she talks to Joel about following him anywhere he goes after they are done at the hospital. She has no idea.
@@bethanyjoyxo I think she definitely has survivors guilt - she wants her life to mean something. But not to give her life without absolutely certainty that it would make a difference.
If Marlene had told Ellie the truth and left it up to Ellie, what if Ellie said no? Do you really think the Fireflies would accept that and let her go?
When she said "I know why you're telling me this" I read it as as Joel seeing that she's traumatized and become so quiet and her personality isn't showing as much and that she's all in her thoughts and he used his own story to tell her that there is hope and that it gets better. In my mind what he was saying was "I experienced this huge trauma and loss and I thought there is nothing for me in the future, but it wasn't true" to let her know that it'll get better and what she's feeling isn't gonna last forever and she said "I know why you're telling me this" to let him now that she understands what he's trying to say. It's just my own understanding tho
I think a really important thing to remember when we discuss the morality of Joel's choice to save Ellie is the fact that the show has repeatedly told us (through the mouths of experts in the fields of both medicine and mycology) that there is no way to make a vaccine for something like Cordyceps. It's literally the first thing the show ever tells us, and it's reinforced again in the second episode to remind us. We're also shown that Joel has never believed that the Fireflies (or anyone else for that matter) are capable of making a vaccine. And it's a well-justified belief. Doctors couldn't manage it back when they had funding and resources, but the Fireflies are somehow gonna magically pull it off in a dingy moldy hospital with 20 year old drugs and equipment? Unlikely. Not to mention the fact that within literal hours of getting their hands on Ellie, the Fireflies decide to cut her brain out and kill her. She's their only hope for a potential vaccine against cordyceps, and they immediately decide to murder her. And it's not like they're killing Ellie with the absolute certainty that this will work either, they're doing it based on a completely unproven hypothesis. Which means that if it fails they've destroyed all possibilities for future research bc their only subject is dead. They don't even try anything else to learn more about how her immunity functions, no blood or plasma samples, no biopsy, no spinal tap, nothing. They don't tell her what they plan to do either, they just put her under with the intent for her to never wake up again, because that's easier than having to tell a kid that you're planning to murder them.
Marlene talks to Joel about how "Ellie would have wanted this" bc "it's the right thing to do" and "will create a better world", but she has no way of knowing it will work or that dying for their cause is what Ellie actually would have wanted. Because they never fucking asked her in the first place, and it's not like they would have just accepted it if she'd said no either. Hell, even if they had asked her and she'd said yes, I personally don't think there's any justification for putting the weight of the entire world on the shoulders of a deeply traumatized 14 year old with survivor's guilt and a martyrdom complex, and then asking them to die for your cause. There is no possible way for Ellie to give informed consent in this situation-even if the Fireflies hadn't kidnapped, sedated, and tried to murder her-because she is a child and the situation itself is inherently coercive. Joel and Marlene are not equals in "taking Ellie's choice away", bc one of those paths is irreversible while the other isn't. If the Fireflies have doctors then there are gonna be other factions who do too, so it's not like the potential for a vaccine (to the extent that it even exists in this world, which is definitely up for debate) dies along with the Fireflies in that hospital.
This is all without getting into the fact that even if the Fireflies by some miracle were able to create a vaccine from the cordyceps growing in Ellie's brain, they still don't have the infrastructure to mass produce or distribute it. It wouldn't be a magical cure rolled out to save all of mankind, it would just be another chip in their political war against fedra, and probably also a recruitment tool.
Now, that ofc doesn't mean I think it's good that Joel massacred them all. Mass murder is obviously still fucked up. But he was put in a situation where his only options were to either fight his way to Ellie and get her to safety (or die trying), or to let the Fireflies murder her (which inevitably ends in his own death as well bc he won't survive the loss of another daughter). I definitely know what choice I would have made if I was in his shoes.
All that being said, I do wish Joel hadn't lied to Ellie about it, and I think it was wrong of him to do so. However, I also understand why he did it. He wanted to protect her from the guilt and trauma of the situation, so she wouldn't believe that the only way her life could have meaning was if she'd died on that operating table. Parents sometimes lie to protect their kids, and it can be messy and ugly and morally grey as hell, but they usually do it out of love and a desire to keep them safe. Hell, the only reason Ellie is even alive in the first place is because her mother-who loved Ellie so much that she held a knife to her own throat for hours as she cradled her baby in her arms, just to make sure she wouldn't hurt her-looked Marlene right in the eye and lied to her about the fact that she cut the umbilical cord after she got bit. Joel and Anna both represent the depth and ferocity of a parent's love for their child, and the lengths they are willing to go to to keep them safe. And I personally can't fault either of them for their choices.
So we’ll written.
Perfectly articulated. Everything I wanted to express and more! Thank you!
I agree completely. I have read so many comments that they should have, at the very least, asked Ellie what she wanted to do (and the Good Doctor here just said the same thing) but Ellie is a distraught, practically suicidal CHILD who believes that she is somehow bad and needs to do this to make up for what she has done. Asking her is not seeking consent, it is coercion. Anyone that can't convince a 14-year-old that they need to surrender their life to save the world isn't trying.
I also question how Marlene managed to get there way before Joel and Ellie. J & E have been traveling for months. Why’d Marlene send E off with J whom she herself claimed was “the last person she wanted to be indebted to “
wow you really explained it very well!
i told myself i wasn’t gonna cry this episode. i lasted to “you’re so tough.” i lost my mother young too, and watching anna sing eighties music to her baby girl and hold her tight broke ne
I'm sorry you lost your mother.
I loved everything about the hospital massacre montage. I love that the sound is muffled, and we mainly just hear this music. And everytime the sound of the violence breaks through (like that one guy's scream when Joel stabs him), it is effective.
It is essentially from Joel's perspective. He's almost disassociated. Because he is of a one-track mind. Nothing matters to him, these people don't matter to him. Only Ellie and her life matters to him. Everyone else is just an obstacle. Someone who needs to go down. He has no emotions or rage or anything against these people.
They are simply in his way.
Also glad that they didn't have him kill the nurses. He killed everyone who was a threat or in his way. The nurses were neither. Plus, the game REQUIRES the player to kill the surgeon and the nurses are optional.
When he starts murdering people with that cold emotionless detachment (actually in the previous episode) that’s when we see why his own brother thought he was evil, and why they weren’t sure they should invite him into their commune. His love for Ellie made him more emotionally vulnerable and empathetic, but it also brought out the cold killer in him when he’s retraumatized. Such a complicated situation.
@@rosemarybramante4503 I saw a comment in another thread that mentioned that when it comes to killing, Joel has achieved mastery, it is almost instinctual once he is triggered. But he broke that mind set when he spared the nurses.
I think what makes Joel's decision so compelling is that as easy as it is to criticize, I think everybody understands why he did it. And deep deep down, a lot of people know they would do that same thing to keep the person closest to them alive. I really can't wait to see what you think of Season 2's plot, assuming it follows the game. Loved your videos on this series!
I would do it too, I'm Joel lol. I admit it happily because that's love
@@MarieTheOstrich To be honest, me too. And if I can even be a little defensive about it, I think the surgery is unethical. I don't think the Fireflies were any more right than Me, you, or Joel regardless of their intentions.
@Ririten Yuyuten I think what does it, for me, is the dishonesty. As fucked up as it would have been to go through with it, if Ellie had known beforehand, gotten to come to terms with the idea and agree to it, and said goodbye, the surgery inevitably killing her would be her sacrificing herself willingly. This is a girl desperate to help being led along like a lamb to slaughter, being put under anesthesia without knowing that if the people she believes in have their way, she won't wake up and the man she loves like a father will be forced to lose another daughter. They took her choice and the ability to grant closure to Joel away because they were afraid she would flinch at the last minute.
True but if we weren’t joel in this world then we would also probably side mainly with the fireflies. As viewers it’s easy to choose which side we want to identify with but realistically we would make the choice that benefits us most and since most of us would not have known Ellie and we heard about a possible cure then we probably wouldn’t see as much as an issue with it
But in the end Ellie is the one that should make the choice
@@TheAngryXenite In another world, if Joel still saw Ellie as cargo, he would let the Fireflies go even if he knew what they would do.
I also agree that Ellie should have had a choice, with the Fireflies and Joel coz at the end of the day they both made a decision for her. At the same time I also understand why the Fireflies did it and also why Joel did it. As Neil said TLOU1 is the story of an irrational love parents have for their kid, that he was willing to give up his friends and family's life, damining his soul and mankind in exchange for one girl's life. There is no black and white in this story, just how we know we would probably do the same thing Joel did or even decide the same thing Marlene did. This story was meant to end in that moral ambiguity where people had to process it.
Both Joel and Marlene made choices on Ellie's behalf. The difference is that Marlene's choice would have killed her and Joel's gave her the opportunity to go on living and to make choices of her own in the future.
Ellie had been told by people that she trusted and respected that her life only (or at least primarily) had meaning as the bearer for the 'cure'. Her survivor's guilt, her sense of loss and the trauma she felt over what she had been forced to do to survive was being employed against her by the cause provided to her by Marlene, and even then she wasn't sure that Ellie would make the choice she wanted her to. That's why she didn't tell her the procedure would kill her. Ellie wasn't actively suicidal, like Joel had been twenty years ago, but I think she felt it was okay if this was an actual suicide run, and that sacrificing herself was what was needed to atone for the deaths of the people she mentioned in her conversation with Joel.
Joel's choice, bad though it may have been, gave her the opportunity to create a meaning in her life that wasn't put there by other people or by her own trauma, simply by giving her a life to live.
In addition, greeting Joel and Ellie with a flash-bang, a rifle-butt to the skull and then whisking Ellie away to lethal surgery before Joel regained consciousness was probably the worst possible way to handle the situation. Or the best, if what you wanted was for Joel to think that you were a bunch of liars who didn't know what they were doing and was going to kill his daughter for a bullshit cause.
As Bill said in his farewell letter; "That's why men like you and me are here: We have a job to do. And God help any motherfuckers who stand in our way". Marlene's handling of the situation was a surefire way to get Joel to go Terminator on everyone's asses.
TLDR; I think Joel did the right thing. Maybe not for the right reasons, and he probably handled it about as badly as could be imagined, but it's not like he was graced with an abundance of great options in that moment.
The cure also wouldn’t have saved that many people. It would’ve just made a bunch of people like Ellie. FEDRA, raiders, zombies, and other future factions. The world is still effed. Ellie almost died countless times on their journey. Zombies rip people apart no matter what. The fireflies put Ellie under not giving her a choice or anything. They didn’t give her a choice or have Joel awake because they needed a cure for themselves to stay alive. They wanted to use their “cure” to overthrow FEDRA. For the doctor to not even talk to Ellie or Marlene about how she could’ve been immune to the effects of a bite or test her blood or anything is just retarded. They immediately put her in surgery. Joel doesn’t have all this in mind granted. He just wants his daughter. That conversation couldn’t happen though because Marlene and the Fireflies forced his hand. No conversation was had. Not with Ellie or Joel. Ellie is owed a conversation. Joel isn’t owed a conversation but he is however owed his deal that he made with Marlene. She didn’t hold her end of the bargain up for delivering Ellie. She just sent him on his way.
Ellie literally didn't have a choice here. If Marlene had told her everything and left the choice up to Ellie, what if Ellie said no? Do you really think the Fireflies would have accepted that and let her go? Of course not, they would have done the surgery anyway. So what would be the point of giving Ellie a choice that didn't matter?
"In addition, greeting Joel and Ellie with a flash-bang, a rifle-butt to the skull and then whisking Ellie away to lethal surgery before Joel regained consciousness was probably the worst possible way to handle the situation." The Fireflies who did this didn't know who Joel and Ellie were. They thought they were 2 strangers so they reacted to protect their base.
"I think Joel did the right thing. Maybe not for the right reasons, and he probably handled it about as badly as could be imagined, but it's not like he was graced with an abundance of great options in that moment."
Joel's choice was right for him and him alone. He doomed the entire world to live in a world with Infected. But he didn't care about that. His entire world is now Ellie.
And this is why the story is so beloved by so many, it hits at the very core of what it means to be a human being in relationships with others. Every choice, every reaction, how we see ourselves and how we project our trauma has consequences for those around us.
The scene with Joel opening up is actually completely new. A very impactful change they made with the show.
P.S. Love the reactions! Looking forward to future reactions and season 2 as well. Thanks so much :)
I don't necessarily agree that Joel didn't understand what Ellie was going through when she was disassociating. He was very patient with her when she was slow to respond, and his attempts at getting her to engage were always gentle and seemed more like his way of letting her know that he is there when she's ready to re-engage.
Just a small thing that I think is a really interesting detail: Ellie noticed earlier in the season that Joel can't hear out of his right ear. And the wound to his head is on the right side. Which means he lost his hearing in that ear because the gun was so close to his head when he tried to shoot himself.
A small interesting bit of information. The first episode of this series is titled "When you're lost in the Darkness" and this final episode is titled "Look for the Light"
Reminder, Joel never had an opportunity to give Ellie a choice. Given the sequence of events, he woke up, Marlene said they didnt give Ellie a choice, and he took action. There was no opportunity for Joel to give her a choice because she was about to be killed, after not being given a choice. Also, asking a minor to give up their life for the greater good, specifically after she is in such a depressive state, doesnt seem very moral to me. Ellie would almost welcome death to be done feeling how she does. That seems off to me.
That is such a great point, that Ellie was depressed and especially vulnerable at that moment.
It's fascinating how people keep making excuses for Joel's actions . Marlene made a bad a choice but a healthy person would have many scenarios to save Ellie without killing everyone and give Ellie the choice ,
Joel is not his right mind he doesn't see Ellie as an individual anymore, he see her as his own only his., his healer .so he trying to save himself from pain without her , . He did worse than Marlene he took her choice and all her future choices . he killed the doctor and Marlene so Ellie won't have to comeback to them and he lies so Ellie stay in Jackson and not go look for them because he knows she will
He basically forcing her to in a relationship with him as a replacement for his daughter. It's disgusting honestly.
Think about it if he was doing that for Ellie he would not kill everyone especially the doctor and Marlene he can just shoot them in the foot or something, wake up Ellie and tell her the truth if she wants to comeback to the firefly. And many other good person scenarios.
I HOPE Dr. Courtney missed the fact that the surgery was going to be MURDER. I hope she wouldn't condone giving this choice to 14yo recent trauma survivor who'd been led to believe she has a purpose/obligation to give her life.
@@hayderneamah1323 I had the exact same reaction as you and Dr Courtney when I first watched this episode. I thought Joel’s decision to lie was selfish and it was gross how he just wanted to keep Ellie as this surrogate, sort of like David. It took me some time to process before I came around.
Like others pointed out, Marlene didn’t give Ellie any choice either. She says “this is what Ellie would’ve wanted” but 1) she could’ve just friggin asked Ellie before knocking her unconscious 2) Ellie is just a kid, she’s in a really dark place and feeling all this survivor’s guilt. Ellie says “after everything I’ve done, it can’t be for nothing” not understanding that she didn’t do anything wrong. She doesn’t owe the world anything for just surviving as best she can. If I were her parent I wouldn’t have let her make that choice for herself either.
Joel made a decision and followed through. Killing everyone was super messed up ofc but he was right, if any of the fireflies had been left alive, they would’ve hunted her down.
I can’t say Joel made the 'right' decision and I do think it was partially for selfish reasons, but I don't think it was purely selfish anymore. Joel took full responsibility for Ellie as a parent. Being the parent means sometimes you have to be the bad guy and deal with the consequences. He understood that Ellie was in a horrible mental state and if she were to khs because he told her the truth, then it really would’ve all been for nothing.
Also Marlene sucks more the longer you think about it...she knew from the very beginning that she was sending Ellie to her death. Joel did better by Ellie's mom than Marlene smh
@@hayderneamah1323 I am interested to hear how you think Joel had, "...many scenarios to save Ellie..." Two men armed with automatic weapons were marching him out, with orders to shoot him if he resisted> You really think he could have just convinced them to let him go get Ellie out of the operating room? Or that he could have convinced Marlene to let Ellie recover from the flash grenade long enough to hear what they planned and give her consent? This was Marlene's plan from the beginning, Ellie was always intended to be killed once the Fireflies learned she was immune.
Pedro's Joel definitely opens up more than video game Joel and I'm glad for that. He was a lot more vague about his attempt on his life. Like "blink and you'll miss it" vague. In the show, Joel makes his feelings towards Ellie more obvious to her, which I really loved. Thank you for reacting to this series! Looking forward to more!
It's hard for me not to be on Joel's side at the end of this, with just how badly Marlene handled it
He's not even given the chance to say goodbye and they jump straight into trying to bully him out of the hospital
We aren't shown a conversation with Ellie consenting to her own death, which she probably would have with her survivors guilt, but Joel can't know that
And they aren't even going to attempt any less invasive options before destroying the only immune person they've ever seen?!
I have to question the credentials of this doctor
Like you say, Ellie deserves a choice, an informed choice
And we and Joel don't get to see her make that choice
I don't think that Joel doesn't get it. I think he knows that she's gone through something and he recognizes that her joy and brightness are slipping away and he's trying so desperately to help her find it again. She's withdrawing into herself and he doesn't know what to do, and probably doesn't trust himself to find the right words to say or feels like maybe she wouldn't want to talk about it and instead he's overcompensating by trying extra hard to play with her or joke with her or open up about his past and his daughter because he wants to connect with her again. You can see it on his face when she finally starts to be happy with the giraffes.
Beautifully put
At the very end when Ellie is confronting Joel, she tells him about Riley and their plan to "lose their minds together all poetic and sh*t," in the game she ends it with, "I'm still waiting for my turn." I believe the writers intended this episode to be about Ellie having suicidal ideations (or at the very least is eager to put herself in harm's way) as a result of her survivor's guilt and recent trauma. That Joel noticed it after the giraffe scene, so the very next scene he confessed about the time he "couldn't have been more ready" to die, and how it can get better. "The reason I'm telling you this," he says, wasn't because he wanted her to know she was important to him, but because he wanted her to know she can get past her own rough patch. That it's only temporary. At the very end he tells her "but if you just keep going, you'll find something new to fight for." Joel is trying to buy Ellie time to heal. Maybe he's wrong, but this is what Joel believes Ellie is going through.
Really grateful for your insights and wisdom regarding this show, I’ve learned more about psychology AND my favorite story. Thank you :)
Regarding Joel’s suicide attempt, it’s not explicitly stated in the game, but there is a moment where they find the bodies of people who ended their own lives. Ellie says “I guess they took the easy way out”, and Joel says “it ain’t easy”, so it’s implied he knows how they felt.
Loved all your videos. What I wish more reactionary vids would mention is that Marlene didn’t give Ellie a choice, either. Even if she agreed to it, she would’ve wanted to have talked with Joel one last time. Also, in the game it’s very clear the chances of making a cure weren’t great and others have died from previous experiments. As a father of two little girls, I would’ve done the same. All of it. I couldn’t see any other parent not doing what Joel did. That’s too hard of an ask for someone that is your world and not even be 100% it’s going to work.
One of the few types of reaction videos I actually watch. Where the person reacting has something interesting to say rooted in their own expertise to give new context to the content. Thank you.
I’m just wondering how you feel about Marlene not giving Ellie a choice about being a sacrificial lamb? Marlene might have known Ellie’s mom but she doesn’t have a relationship with Ellie. Joel is doing what any father would do in his situation which is defend his family.
Found your channel through this series. What a fun journey. Love your insight and thought process. Very unique channel.
I can't wait for your reactions for season 2 (and possibly season 3) let me tell you it'll be 10x much more intense! Love your channel and content, thank you for what you do
When Joel says "It wasn't time that did it..." (referenceing the feelings that made him attempt suicide), Pedro nailed the look, his facial epression drew tears to my eyes, because without another word I knew in my heart exactly what he was thinking (portraying). I do not know what makes a good actor, but if I am ever asked, I would point to this scene.
The amount of joy on his face -- but quietly -- in the giraffe scene was also perfect.
I watched every reaction video of yours for the last of us. I enjoyed them all so much. Real insights for me in life!
This is the best analysis I have seen on The Last of Us. The game has been out for almost ten years. I've seen many people analyze the ending. This was incredibly insightful. Hit the like button people! More people need to see this video!
One thing I have been struck with each week is how you have been able to foresee events and character interactions based on analysis of their existing mindsets and actions. I think it speaks both to your insight into human behavior, as well as the show’s ability to portray very real character motivations and mental states.
Enjoyed the series (both yours and the tv show) and thanks for what you’ve put out into the world.
exatly! Her great analysis proves the shows great writing. Beautiful isn't it?
This is easily the best comment on any of her videos that helps me explain (as someone who thinks the game was life-changing) why I adore and appreciate these videos.
You know the videos are edited 🤔 It's meant to entertain us 😺
This addition they did with Joel's scar from his failed suicide attempt is just sooooo good. It resulted in probably my most favorite scene in the whole season when they have the discussion about it and Joel finally tells her how she is the one that got him out of that hole he dig himself in during those 20 years. I might be biased because this is one of those moments that is not in the game and completely surprised me and hit me like a truck... but _damn_, what a good scene.
Loved how they introduced this minor detail about him in episode three, had him lie about it because of course he would never be ready to open up like that to Ellie at that point, and hit us with this payoff in the finale. Made me even more emotional than the moment in the game Ellie gives Joel a photo of Sarah she stole from Maria, which it kind of replaces.
I think the ordeal with David has affected Ellie in numerous ways. The ordeal itself was obviously very traumatic, but I also think it triggered incredible survivor's guilt. As you see in the final lines of the episode, it's something she's struggled with for a long time. And every time she survives something new and awful, I think it opens that wound back up. I think it's especially difficult for her, because everyone who has died, has died either directly or indirectly as a result of being around Ellie-through no fault of Ellie, but still. Riley died taking Ellie out for a night of fun. Tess died transporting Ellie. Henry and Sam died sneaking out of an occupied area, because they met up with Joel and Ellie. Death seems to follow Ellie, and she keeps surviving. And I think the idea of this cure for the infection potentially not working and her journey possibly being for nothing is weighing on her. I think she views her immunity as the one thing she can do to redeem all the loss that has accompanied her. There's actually a line that was in the game cut out in the show that I thought would've been cool to have in there. At the end in the game Ellie says to Joel "I'm still waiting for my turn..." And then Joel took that choice away from her(as did the Fireflies). There are no winners here. Such is the case in a post apocalyptic world, I guess.
The cool thing about the plot is Ellie and Joel are both trying to avoid blaming themselves for things. Ellie wants to do something so she no longer has to blame herself for those who died helping her. Saving the world with a cure is her chance at redemption. Even if those deaths weren't her fault, she thinks they were. And Joel wants to do something to avoid blaming himself for the loss of his daughter and saving Ellie is his chance at redemption.
The giraffe scene is beautiful. Proof beauty still exists in a destroyed world. For Ellie, the beauty lies in the giraffe. For Joel, it lies in Ellie in that scene.
I've loved this story since the game was first released. I've listened to the game creator talk about it and now the show co creator talk about it on as many platforms as they’ve appeared. Now with the show being released, you are the only person besides the creators who has provided so many new insights on what is happening in the minds of these characters. I don’t know if you listen to the official podcasts at all but your reads are so often in line with the creators and you’re often even more adept at explaining from a psychological standpoint. You are truly gifted at analyzing these stories and I hope more and more people notice and this channel takes you to places you never imagined.
ashley was amazing as anna. having game ellie give birth to show ellie was so beautiful to me, like she’s passing on the torch to bella. just thinking about it makes me emotional.
As soon as I discovered your channel my most anticipated analysis of yours is of Joel’s decisions at the end of the story. Excellent stuff thank you for doing this series.
It’s interesting that you noted that Joel essentially telling Ellie that she is his lifeline is a lot of responsibility to put on a child, because in episode 5 Joel makes the observation to Henry that survival in the apocalypse is easier for kids because they don’t have anyone relying on them. Now Joel has placed that weight on Ellie and their dynamic has changed.
joel is asking her to live for him and marlene wants her to die for her cause and she’s caught in the middle.
@@sgtmian Except, with Ellie still alive, there can be additional conversations to clarity these things. Joel as presented would absolutely not want her to feel obligated to live for him. He wants to her to find her own purpose.
You were my favorite reactor to this show EASILY! The observations you made were awesome and deeper than anyone else's that I've seen!
Really appreciate you and your expertise!
I can't express how much I loved your reactions to The Last of Us. Thank you so much for doing this.
I just went through and watched each one of your last of us reaction videos. It's so interesting to hear the insight of a mental health professional on something like this. This show has been on my mind constantly and I feel it poses so many questions that many other shows do not. Anyway, you have a new subscriber and I look forward to more videos
Aren't you missing one important detail? Marlene wasn't giving Ellie a choice either. She was going to kill her for a possible chance of a cure that they didn't really know would work. In the operating room, they questioned whether there was enough power to even perform the surgery. Ellie didn't know she had to die for the cure, and that choice wasn't given to her.
Heck, she didn't even know she was going into surgery. Her reaction waking up in the car suggests she didn't even know they found the fireflies or that she was drugged.
So excited for Fleabagg! Thank you for sharing your vision, Courtney! I tune in whenever I can. XOXO
Just realized the conversation Anna had with Marlene begging her to take Ellie was also very similar to the conversation Tess had with Joel in the museum after it was revealed Tess had been bit.
Thank you for sharing your insight with us, it enhances the media you cover by providing additional context to the characters and their decisions that might otherwise be missed or misinterpreted. I found you through The Last of Us, and I watched your other videos soon after (I also recommended them to my friends who watched those shows). I watched Fleabag years ago and enjoyed it, so I look forward to your reaction and insightful commentary!
One of the few break downs that really seemed to get at what was going on here with Joel. Most seem to just treat his march through the hospital like a heroic action scene. To me it felt like the death of the man that was up until this point starting to heal. I can only imagine the effect these events have on Ellie. I could see the potential cure, regardless of its cost, and the trust she let herself invest in these two people that was betrayed may nearly break her. In a way it feels like this show has been about Ellie becoming Joel, in all the worst ways.
You did an excellent job analysing and commenting every scene. Personally (when I was watching this serie) I have no one nearby to talk about this serie as much as I wanted or sharing my view from a particularly scene that I liked but instead I got to know your channel and I'm glad that I did. It's was so cool listening to you bc I'm studying psychology and I'm happy when I see 2 (or more) differents things that I like are mixed everytime (In this case, game-series and psychology)
I'm looking forward to more upcoming videos!
Season 2 is going to be crazy, can't wait for you to see it.
Adored your coverage of this series. So much more to dive into whenever we get to season 2.
So looking forward to your Fkeabag analysis also. One of my fave shows in recent years. Fleabag herself being one of the most fleshed out and real characters I've seen, maybe ever
god damn you are good at this. bringing back up when david said "Love has no fear" was a call-back from beyond the 3 point line. are you like the boss at your place? cause you should be
One behind-the-scenes thing that I liked about this show and this episode in particular is having the voice actors appear, like in this episode, they had the voice actress of Ellie play Ellie's mom.
The voice actor for Abby was actually one of the nurses in the operating room too!
@@paradoxdriver4094 Yeah, I wasn't going to mention it to avoid potential spoilers.
Heyooo. Found your channel looking for Last of Us reactions. I love hearing insight from a therapist.
What a fantastic idea for a channel!!
My mom is also a psychologist, and a therapist, and I find so much comfort in your reviews!!
What gets me about the giraffe interaction is that Joel doesn’t have much interest in the giraffe his eyes are on Ellie, he watches her… as a parent, my greatest joy has always been in watching that first reaction of my children to honestly to anything is just everything!! It is probably why I am attracted to reactions videos. I really enjoy the expression of a face that experiences something for the first time. I get Joel’s reaction, I understand…. But my total betray is when he talks to Elie and lies to he her… she knows he is lying but excepts his lie because she haas to… she can never trust him even though she loves him him
Spot on analysis the whole time, i got on the train a little late but thoroughly enjoyed re-experiencing this with you! Hope everyone has a good day.
I can't wait for you to see season 2. If it's anything like this first season/game, your insight on Part II will be GOLD!
i knew you would have a balanced view of this show and be able to see all sides, thank you for that. seeing you react to this has been so great, thank you 💗
aaaa i’m so excited to hear your thoughts on this ending because it’s a topic of debate in the fandom . i’m also excited to hear your thoughts when season 2 comes out because there is sooo much to analyze there too!
Found your channel from The Last Of Us. They just confirmed season 2 and 3. Will be based around the 2nd game. Really learned a lot and you did a great job clearly explaining and educating.
One of the best analysis of the show. Made me appreciate the show 2x more!
Just wanted to say I always love hearing your thoughts each week, you provide such great new insight into the characters that I’ve loved for 10+ years. Excited to watch this on my lunch break later.
Enjoyed watching you do this series!
They had ellie's voice actor from the game play Anna, her mom. The symbolism of the game ellie giving birth to the show ellie... I loved that they did that. And as a mother of 2, that opening scene was a lot to watch. Can't wait for you to do season 2!
You can tell the showrunners care about this story
not just the voice actor, she was the mo-cap actor of Ellie as well.
@Metamorpheus yes, you are correct! I totally forgot she did!
listening to you in these last couple of reactions of TLOU have reminded me of the many conversations i have with my Daughter, (next to me in our Avatar) who is also an LCSW and recently got her PhD 😘and the nature of how the two of you talk is so very similar in tone, verb and intent. SW are so undervalued and so needed as this country continues to be in denial of the mental health crisis so many of us suffer silently with and sometimes we see the aftermath on the news. thanks to both of you Ladies for what you two do for all our betterment. 🤩🙏 i am also a big fan of Georgia Dow who also does therapist reaction videos. all of you Ladies are amazing! oh yeah, Subscribed!!!😉
Just a little fun fact from someone who played the games. Ellie keeps a note in her backpack from her mom, Anna. At one point in the game, Ellie can pull it out of her bag and her response to it is: “I’m trying to make you proud.”
OMG I'm so excited that you're going to continue Fleabag! I can't wait for those episodes.
I've loved your reactions to this show, most notably the episode "Kin". You added so much context to some of the conservations in that episode that I completely missed on first viewing.
In terms of Joel's attempted suicide, the game very vaguely makes a reference to it and it's so vague that it's easy to miss.
I think Joel shares with Ellie to let her know that things can always get better eventually and that experiencing deep trauma isn't the end and that she doesn't need to try to do what he did
Thanks for your reaction videos! Your articulation and analysis really helps me identify what it is I'm feeling while watching the show. I'm really excited for fleabag!
In the game, they imply that he may have contemplated suicide,but it was never out right said and was left to interpretation.
(In the game, they come across 2 people who look like they have committed suicide and Ellie says “they took the easy way out huh?”And Joel Replies “Trust me, it ain’t easy”)
I'm so glad that I subscribed to her channel because she is amazing with reactions of shows and movies and she is very amazing therapist
What Joel does, I want to relate it back to Henry.
“I am the bad guy, because I did a bad guy thing.”
The reason Joel could do these bad guy things is because he’s so terrified of the alternative that he can as you say, dissociate. The way he shoots his way through the hospital with dispassion and callousness, we know he’s an emotional person, a vulnerable person, even a compassionate one, but as is the point of this show…
Love can make you do amazing things… and love can make you do horrible things, even to whoever it is you love. Because believe it or not, even Joel’s decision to lie to Ellie is one that is for her sake in his mind. As Neil Druckmann put it, we’ve seen this progression of what Joel is willing to sacrifice for Ellie’s sake, to protect her and not go through the horror of losing her. And in the end he’s willing to give up the world to keep her safe and what Marlene makes him realize actively, she’d want this. And so Joel’s final sacrifice? He’s willing to lie to her and jeopardize their entire relationship just to protect her. And yet this intense love he exhibits takes the form of selfishness because it’s all about HIS pain, not hers. Because she will always be in pain without knowing the truth and she KNOWS she doesn’t know the truth and that Joel is keeping it from her. All she’ll ever be able to do is fake being happy until she starts being happy on accident, and any hairtrigger could send her spiralling again. All she can do is dissociate from the pain.
Better spend the next few years prepping, because the next part of this story is gonna be rough.
I would like to thank you for the insight you've brought with this series, which have elevated my viewing experience. Honestly I've been looking forward to your videos more than the actual show. As a fan of the games, especially part 2, knowing the story intimately it's been more of a connect the dots and comparing one medium against the other. On the whole i'm satisfied with the choices they made regarding the adaptation. Here's hoping you are still doing these videos when season 2 rolls around. Again thank you and keep fighting the good fight.
Unintentionally passing down the coping skill of just shutting things out and ignoring problems is like EXACTLY me and my dad but the only difference- when he compartmentalizes he eventually stops and takes the time to deal with what he had to ignore in the moment, but for me- I do not know how to deal with it, I do not want to deal with it, and it seems everything in my life has been pushed down so much that now for that past year I’ve been just a constant volcano of anxiety or panic attacks and I still don’t know how to deal with it, all I can do is put it aside, cuz anytime it comes up all I get is another attack, and then I’m back to trying to forget
Loved seeing your reaction to season 1! Keep your eyes out for season 2 whenever it comes out!!
I can’t wait that long to get her reaction/analysis for part two. Let’s convince her to play TLOU2 lol.
They played with the fact that some of us knew Ellie's mom actress is Ellie in the games, and that's why mom and daughter are so much alike too.
Thank you. I was looking for someone commenting on this.
Your reactions are the only ones I watch their too good, love what you do💜
Fun fact: The actress who played Ellie's mom in the show is the voice actress for Ellie in the game. The call backs in this show to me feel more like an homage as opposed to fan service.. Thank you again for your interpretation of these shows. I feel like all I do is say thank you but I truely glad that you do these videos for us. It helps me process some of the complex themes that I normally wouldn't.
What an analysis; I'm in awe. I only played the games for the first time in 2021 so haven't been around the discussion nearly as long as others, but I can say this was one of the most insightful, intelligent and thorough takes I've seen.
You'll have your work cut out for you next season!
Thank you so much for these analyses.
This story and these characters have been on my mind so much in the past 10 years.
You put into words so many thoughts and feelings I've also had about it and at the same time managed to give so much more insight into these characters and their motivations.
I didn't think my appreciation for what they portrayed in the game and now also in the show could get bigger, but your videos have made me love the story even more.
Again, thanks! Can't wait for season 2.
thank you for much for these reactions, I've watched them all now. I feel like I can tell what you are like in session and it is very comfy feeling. can't wait to keep watching what you do next!
That heavy moment with Joel and Ellie in the pop-up medical camp wasn't in the game. instead, he opens up about his experience after losing Sarah, and seeing so many others who have lost people, so he knew he wasn't the only one, but it didn't quell his sense of anger and grief. He still had Tommy, and during those days of them surviving together, Joel leaned into the brutality because it helped him and Tommy survive, and it likely was to get out his anger at humanity ant the infected for taking away Sarah. Joel wanting to off himself is purely from the show, as is the scar on his temple.
I was excited to hear you say you are covering Fleabag next. I loved both Seasons but Season 2 I was blown away.
Am I crazy? They do say why Joel is telling her, "Time heals all wounds I guess". He's simply trying to tell Elllie "I know your hurting right now but you'll be ok, I was hurting too and I'm still here"
Did Fleabag absolutely crush me? Absolutely. Will I be watching the reaction series and have my heart broken all over again? Absolutely.
I think there's a lot to talk about here.
- Medically, there probably was some non-fatal to get *something* that could be used for a vaccine (do we just chalk it up to entertainment logic, or is it a sign that the Fireflies are sort of incompetent? and does it matter if they're incompetent?)
- Ellie should have been given a choice. But is a 14-year-old in a spot to make that decision? What about one suffering from PTSD?
- Did Joel and Ellie love each other, or just trauma-bond? What's the difference, is there a difference, where does it become unhealthy, etc.?
- Is it ever ok to lie?
Very fascinating story.
So excited about all of your reactions! 😊😊
Have you considered doing like a closing post-watch video, with some comments that may be a bit complementary?
Can't wait to see you watch more stuff, I'm really glad I found your channel 😊😊
One of the key differences here compared to in game, is that when the fireflies happen upon Ellie in this moment in game, she's actually unconscious due to a series of events that leads to her drowning. And Joel's actually trying to resuscitate her when he gets knocked out by the fireflies. So that being said, she may have been revived somewhat in an incohesive state by the fireflies then prepped right away for surgery. No time for conversing. It may have spared Marlene the guilt of asking such a question of Ellie, a little girl whom she had promised her mother to protect. The mother also being her best friend, Anna.
The Ellie that we know is also world's apart from the one we saw in the beginning with Marlene. This Marlene doesn't know Ellie as we do, so perhaps she still looks at Ellie as a child who's not capable of understanding something like the greater good and self sacrifice. This notion is reinforced in the TV adaption in that we don't see Ellie get knocked out at all in the skirmish with the fireflies, she's just dragged away. Despite being fully conscious, she is never told or asked anything about what is going to happen. Otherwise Marlene would have have just told Joel that Ellie agreed to it. So we can actually assume from this that she is either knocked out later, or drugged prior to her ending up on the surgery table. How could Ellie, the problematic girl who grew up in quarantine most her life know about the ways of the world, Marlene might think. When in actuality through being exposed to people and their stories like Riley, Tess, Bill & Frank, Sam & Henry, and David, she has become incredibly self aware.
In the end, Ellie wanted to go through with making the cure. Whatever it takes. She doesn't want all of the deaths up until this point, all the suffering and trauma she and others had to endure, to be for nothing. That is her choice. And also in the end, it is the choice that she is ultimately denied. By Marlene. And by Joel. Marlene doesn't trust Ellie enough to say yes, and she doesn't want to be put into a hurtful position of forcing it upon her, juxtaposed with how she was with Anna. Whereas Joel inversely believes that Ellie would most certainly say yes, but doesn't want to lose his reason for living. In the end these are basically two people who care deeply for Ellie, but have interesting ways of showing it.
thank you for the clarity you provide
I found it interesting that Joel mentioned Ellie was quiet "today" and not for the past several weeks/months it took them to get to Salt Lake City. It's possible that she's just having a bad mental health day, but the fact that they're nearly at their goal seems relevant. It reminds me so much of when you're in a depression and bind all your hopes on one thing changing-- "if I can just get a job, I won't be depressed anymore," "if I could find a steady partner, I won't feel bad anymore," etc. But when you actually get to that goal, and your depression doesn't feel any better, you feel even more awful. Ellie has been putting herself through absolute hell, watching good people die around them and having to kill people and infected, all for the purpose of saving the entire world. Now that she's right at her goal, I wonder if she's realizing she doesn't feel any better. Like maybe she thought those lives lost (Riley, Tess, Henry, Sam...) would feel "worth it," but they just don't.
I believe he said "you're *extra* quiet today". So I do think she was having some bad days, recovering from the trauma of David.
This was what i needed to watch. Big thank you for all the answers of my questions in my mind.
This is one that I've truly been waiting for. About to watch now. Hope everyone has enjoyed this journey and looking forward to how ppl took this in, and take in the future of the series....things happen. :-).
Thank you. Another great video.
This episode was brilliant and gut wrenching at the same time. I felt so sorry for them both when Joel lied to Ellie at the end. I’ve not played the games but you can tell it was the start of the end of their relationship.
Remember when Tommys wife said to Ellie “the only ones who can betray us are the ones we trust”?
I absolutely loved fleabag when it came out so I’m looking forward to watching your videos on that too.
I dont think joel "didnt get it". I much rather would say: he didnt know what to do.
He wants to help her, getting to her old self. But how does someone do that. Especially joel, like u mentioned it, is probably somewhat ill equiped with things like emotions and how to handle it.
I agree
Thank you for your videos, I enjoyed each one soooooooo much. I waited week after week! I love your input to the series and the depth you add
Even a peaceful world doesn't mean anything to Joel if he has live without Ellie because he has lost so many loved one's. It's really brilliant writing because you understand both sides. Not to mention the acting is perfect from Pedro and Bella