The Last of Us 1x9 “Look for the Light” | FIRST TIME REACTION
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- Hello and Welcome back to Cinema Rules! The finale of the last of us did not dissapoint! how great was this first season?
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One thing that's fun to think about, and I think it's an accurate reading is that neither Marlene or Joel would have respected Ellies desire. If they all got in a room and asked her if she wanted to go through with it. if she said yes then Joel would have done the same thing. He couldn't lose a child again no matter if they wanted it (she even tells him earlier how much it means to her so he clearly has that in his head). If she had said no then the Fireflies would have forced her.
Something else the guys didnt think of was, what if that one doctor was wrong and they killed Ellie and his theory didnt work, now the fireflies would have no cure and Joel would have lost another daughter.
@@dmaul1973 Yeah but ehhhh I don't really think that's the point though. Using the language of the story my reading is you are supposed to assume there is a good chance this will work. If we don't assume that then the moral dilemma doesn't work.
You can't really give a 14 year old with survivors guilt, and general mental health issues a choice like that.
@@bricewgilbert the moral dilemma doesn’t work and that’s the beauty of the divisive ending. The outcome of making a cure is uncertain, the doctor said so through Marlene. We can debate for either side, but the fact is Marlene never gave Ellie a choice or never gave Joel a choice to give Ellie a choice. It’s been 20 years and the minute they got Ellie they prepped her up for surgery? No testing, no diagnosis, no discussion, no consent? How brilliant is that doctor to successfully making a cure on the first trial? Ellie was expecting blood or tissue samples, not death. She made future plans to go with Joel. So did Joel. Not sure how you can read a positive outlook from Marlene’s haste decision.
A few things about that, I'd say:
1. While I'm definitely not positive he wouldn't have still done it, I do think that if there WAS any circumstance in which he would have forced himself to walk out that door, it would have been if he had had the chance to talk to Ellie and she absolutely, positively could not be convinced out of going through with it. Again, is it still possible he would have done it anyway? Yeah. But I don't necessarily think we can say that for sure - if nothing else because he would know that the second she woke up and realized he had deliberately gone against what she had asked him, she might never forgive him.
(And in terms of the conversation they'd had earlier in the episode, true she had confirmed that she was steadfast in seeing it through, but she also quite notably spoke of the future as well. So as much there's little doubt that she would say yes, she also *didn't* know going in that seeing it through would entail her dying. That was never her expectation; it's just what she would have agreed to in out of a sense of obligation to not have her trauma be for nothing.
Which leads me to:
2. I don't know what *I* would do even in the aforementioned scenario where she insisted either, because I genuinely do not believe she's in any place to be able to make that choice! She is a 14 year old kid with severe trauma and survivor's guilt, who feels like she owes the world her life because of all the people she's watched die from the thing she lives with. I absolutely do not think that's something to be glorified as heroic; it's passive suicidality, and so long as she doesn't believe she has a right to say no, it's not giving her a choice, it's just exploiting the fact that she feels like she doesn't *have* one. She doesn't deserve to feel like her life doesn't matter if she's not for everyone else's benefit, and for that reason I'm very glad they *didn't* wake her up! Someday, once she can internalize that she has every right to say no, by all means, it should be her choice, but not yet. But yes, it would admittedly have even been more messy if she'd insisted on doing it and Joel did what he did anyway... much as I'd hate it and think she was being exploited, if she absolutely couldn't be budged, I can't really say it would be right for him to so deliberately go against her explicit wishes in the moment. There would still be a part of me that would want him to, but... it would be really complicated.
As it actually happened, though, I for one don't think the choice to save her in itself was morally complicated whatsoever! Lying to her about it? Absolutely. But they were about to straight up murder his surrogate daughter. I don't give a crap how noble the end goal is, she is not a walking vessel for the potential cure; she is a *person* , and her life is worth just as much as anyone they might possibly save by killing her. So both from a parental perspective and just plain as a point of human morality, Joel had every right to protect her life.
Really makes me think back to the first episode, in the car when Tommy is about to stop to pick up a family that's begging for a lift... and Joel is the one who insists they ignore them, and their children, for the sake of his own child. Cut to the tear rolling down his daughter's cheek. It's like the entire story of the game/show is foreshadowed in that one haunting moment.
Damn, I don’t wanna be that guy but “it wasn’t time that did it” in reference to Joel telling Ellie in not so many words that she saved him was a moment I was waiting for but oh well, still enjoyed the reaction guys can’t wait for next season
me to , missed that out
It’s interesting hearing you both discuss whether Joel should have done what he did in light of a comment I heard from the game’s creator- in taking a poll from game players, the creator reported that every parent, *without exception*, said Joel should have saved Ellie, or at least didn’t fault him for doing so.
I have 3 kids and I don't support what he did at all. I wish I had seen that poll.
@@coldrains2 Guess you don’t love your kids that much
@@springform_99 I do. I would support them however.
To clarify, I would have talked to them about it a lot more than what Joel did with Ellie. When she asks him about it, he only tells her hesitantly that they will take her blood, because he doesn't really know how they will do it. If it was my kids I would go over all the possibilities. Not only with my kids but Marlene. I also wouldn't agree with trekking all over the country to get there. That's just stupid to me. So many chances to die on the way and if they weren't worried about her making it there alive, we wouldn't go at all. If it's the same exact situation as Joel and Ellie it wouldn't be my kid, and I still wouldn't murder a ton of people to get her and take away the choice she made. It's the age old question isn't it? Sacrifice the one to save the many?
I would sacrifice the one to save the many if it was their choice.
@@coldrains2 Glad that you're willing to murder completely innocent children for the greater good. The world needs more sociopaths.
I have to disagree with Shaun about Game of Thrones. I watched it from start to finish and the "rush" was when they killed the "Night King" (leader of the white walkers or whatever his name was). You could see Dany changing with each city that she "freed". She was becoming the terror that she was "freeing" the slaves from. Maybe it was because I watch the series from beginning to end so the change in her didn't seem so "drastic". I can understand for people who watched the series as it went because maybe the changes weren't remembered as starkly as they are. I know a lot of people thought it was like a switch that happened too fast but if you watch the series again, you'll see it happening in the very first season. There are hints to her becoming a monster.
With the limited information that Joel had when he regained consciousness in the hospital -- Ellie was gone and he wasn't allowed to see her, the surgery would kill her and they didn't tell her that fact, and that the surgery was happening at any moment -- I understand why he started shooting. There was absolutely zero reason to rush Ellie into surgery other than Marlene's cowardice at having to face her with the truth, or worse her fear that Ellie would refuse. I honestly think if she had taken the time to explain the situation to Ellie and Joel, Ellie would have decided to go through with it and Joel would have let her make that decision. I think he would have killed himself shortly afterward, but I think he would have let her go. Not even out of selflessness or respect for her choice, but because he had no other option. Ellie being unconscious was the main reason he was able to "get away with it" so to speak. If she told him her decision and he still went on a rampage, she never would have forgiven him or been able to look at him the same way. Joel reacts violently to immediate threats, so giving him a ticking clock in the hospital was a huge misstep on Marlene's part.
And don't even get me started on the stupidity of immediately killing your living host on the hypothetical chance her brain holds the key. It's been 20 years, you have time to do some blood tests and brain scans instead of getting all knife happy. Worst scientists ever.
I'm not really one for ratings but if I had to, this is a solid 10/10. My favourite episodes are 5,3,8 and 9. It's my favourite game (especially part 2) and now one of my favourite TV shows. Cannot wait for series 2!
An interesting thing to consider for Tom is that for a lot of us who played the first game on release (2013), this ending was the ending of the entire story. For a long time, there were no hints at a sequel.
With that in mind, this moral dilemma was all we had left to discuss over. :)
Nice Shaun. You're the first reactor I've seen pick up on Joel looking at the Hospital board to see where he's at and where Pediatric Surgery is. Good job 🎉
Enjoyed your reaction. The way I saw this, neither Joel or Marlene wanted Ellie to have a choice. Joel couldn't risk her choosing to sacrifice herself and Marlene couldn't risk Ellie walking away. Another thing I thought about is the pain this choice would have caused Ellie. On one hand she chooses death to save the world. On the other hand she chooses life and dooms humanity. This would be mentally devasting for anyone, let alone a 14 yo tramatized child. Great story.
You simply don't give any child a choice like that. Especially not a child with survivors guilt.
- “Since you’re probably the only person who understands. I used to hate the world and I was happy when everyone died. But I was wrong, because there was one person worth saving. That’s what I did, I saved him. Then I protected him. That’s why man like you and me are here, we have a job to do, and God help any motherfckrs who stand in our way.”
…’I swear’…
I think Ellie didn’t believe Joel’s explanation for what happened at the hospital. Thats why she asked him to swear. I also think she strongly suspected she wouldn’t survive whatever the Fireflies needed to do with her.
Marlene's tactical error was in not killing Joel while he was unconscious. She's not a very good military leader. If killing Ellie is a foregone conclusion to extract/create a cordyceps therapy; then allowing Joel to regain consciousness to be "escorted out" is an unacceptable risk.
Everyone involved were dreading to hear Ellie's decision - so they all took it from her.
I find you guys' end debate about whether Joel did the right thing interesting. Apparently when they were playtesting the game back in the day, from the testers who weren't parents, about 50% said Joel did the right thing. From those who WERE parents, 100% said he did the right thing. So maybe that's what's different between you guys' view, too?
the way you left out joel saying “it wasn’t the time that did it” 😐😐💔
You gotta pay up on patreon to see the best parts of the reaction. Awesome huh?
I really do appreciate that they show some love to the performance artists from the game in show. Troy Baker is an amazing actor as is Ashley Johnson, Merle Dandridge and Jeffrey Pierce. But i love the easter egg of having Laura Bailey play the nurse in the last scene (shes plays an important character in the games sequel). If you look closely in the background you see a third nurse, which I think will be revealed to be that important character in the next season.
Joel lost his daughter in the beginning and then spent 20 years keeping everyone he knew at arm's length. Then along came Ellie who he gradually built a bond with through their experiences on their travels and he let her in beyond his walls.
Ellie became like a daughter to Joel and he couldn't lose another daughter.
When I played the game, I was 100% with Joel in his choice to stop the surgery and save Ellie any way he had to. But when watching this episode. I was and still am so conflicted about it.
Leaving out the whole story line and focusing on the last episode - Joel was 100% correct in what he did. Ellie for al intents and purposes is the only immune person alive… you don’t cure anything by destroying your only shot at getting it right. Don’t forget Ellie received the immunity from her birth, Ellie is also capable of giving birth and passing on that immunity. I guess the moral dilemma comes down the road with her preference for women - should she be used as a baby factory against her will presuming there is no one/no equipment left to harvest her eggs and create test tube babies.
Edit - her preference for women is irrelevant… even if she was looking for a male partner, being used as a baby factory is equally awful!
I love your reactions. I think the moral debate breaks down like this: (1) Ellie is 14yo. You are never going to let a 14yo decide whether or not humanity ends or not. If she says no, then humanity just dies off to the pandemic? (2) There will always be someone who is willing to sacrifice someone else's life for the greater good AND Marlene is correct in that the world in which Ellie has to live isn't even close to good... she will be killed by infected or be a victim to sick horrible people like David. Joel did what every since parent would do. (3) Given 1 & 2, and that the story is written to always have us in this grey area. Marlene and Joel both did the right thing from their perspectives. Marlene is a leader of the fireflies and they are trying to save humanity... her correct choice is to sacrifice Ellie. Joel is now Ellie's father (sure there are no adoption courts but they are already father and daughter at this point) he is going to protect her the way he couldn't with Sarah. He is holding Ellie the same way he held Sarah in the first episode. His job is to protect her.. that is his only purpose (like Henry and Sam... Henry kills himself because his purpose is gone... Joel tries to commit suicide because sarah as his purpose is gone... bill and frank go out together because Bill's purpose was going to be gone. Joel has not choice but to save Ellie. (note: I did see people post on other reactions that is is Ellie's brain, it should be her choice. I don't disagree... but she is just 14yo. We don't let minors make life or death decisions for themselves, or humanity. The parent makes the choice.) Ultimately, the point of the story if for each of us to explore that grey area BECAUSE the literary metaphor for zombies, is that we all have the capacity to be a monster (to be evil or the monster to someone in our lives) The show is about love .... including the dark side of love that can make us a monster. Both Marlene who promised Ellie's mother that she would protect Ellie and keep her safe... and Joel who killed a hospital full of fireflies trying to save the world. Whatever choice Ellie would have made (even at 14yo) will determine for her, who the monster of her story actually is...
"You are never going to let a 14yo decide whether or not humanity ends...."
Correct, but unwittingly so. The reason you aren't going to do that is because you don't own her life and don't have any right to take it away from her. What a morally bankrupt, simplistic code of ethics. Not being a sociopath, you will never, under any circumstances, see me murder an innocent person, particularly a child, for my perception of the greater good.
@@brandonflorida1092 and that is a great answer… the question though, is would you have done what Joel did (murder all of those innocent people) to stop them from doing it?
@@KodaVoss Well, for starters, I wouldn't call people in the act of murdering a child innocent.
Thanks, Shaun! Thanks, Tom! 🧟♀ I'm glad you intimated how the makers of the show say the 2nd game will span more than one season... that sounds like at least 3 season to me! If they can maintain this level of quality... the more the better, I say. Now, we play the waitin' game. ❧ I don't think the cure was set in stone. It was only theoretical at that point. It's not like the best doctors were available after an apocalypse. 'Ellie' having a decision... and being allowed to grow to maturity before exercising that choice, should've occurred. But this kind of speculation and debate is part of the fun for such a thoughtful tale. #CinemaRules #TheLastOfUs #TLOU #TheLastOfUsHBO
Can you imagine if Ellie was given a choice and she said no, how do you think the fireflies would've responded?
Under Marlene, the Fireflies became everything that they were formed to fight against.
If the fireflies did manage to find a cure, who would they give it to? Everyone, Fedra, raiders etc? If they don’t give it to everyone, then humanity is no better off. Seeing how most gangs we have seen behave, is humanity worth saving?
I get both points of view, BUT I'd like to Shawn (Sean/Shaun??) to put himself in Joel's shoes. Would he just let Ellie die? There's too much that goes into his decision. First of all, they're expecting a man and a girl to show up in Salt Lake City. No reason to stun grenade them and because of that, Joel never even got to say bye. He's just supposed to accept that? "Yeah she's prepped for surgery. Thanks for dropping her off". Absolutely not. Fuck those fireflies
In the game, they were pretty confident that a VACCINE (important distinction) could be made from Ellie's condition - their argument was that the cordyceps inside her brain had somehow mutated, so she was in essence already infected without exhibiting symptoms, which means that the can't be infected again because she has already been infected by the mutated version of the fungus, but that mutated version of the fungus does not turn her into a zombie-like creature, it's just dormant.
I am completely onboard with what Joel did here because, at least in the game, you get to see what's left of humanity - it's mostly bad guys. Communities like the one Tommy is in are the only good example and they are few and far between. The other options are corrupt FEDRA settlements, crazy psychotic settlements like the one Henry and Sam were escaping, or crazy psychotic settlements like the one David ran. And then there were somewhat morally ambiguous Fireflies. What was left there to save? A vaccine would simply ensure that horrible, terrible people survive. It wouldn't cure those already infected, it would only save those who haven't been infected yet. I'd say taking the little bit of good the world had to offer (Ellie), saving her and taking her to Tommy's camp where she can lead a semi-decent life, grow old and die was a better option. The world had already lost, there was no saving it. Best case scenario eventually people gather together and just torch the entire world of infected until there are none left but the uninfected people, and then rebuild society from who's left.
Well, that is why they picked him to get her there. They really should've thought it through when they picked him.
Here's my take - If anyone to be blamed here by Ellie later in the show is Marlene.. If that doesn't happen whatever showrunners present is a simply a stupidity. Here's why- Ellie was looking forward to go anywhere with Joel & live happily. She is clearly under impression that she doesn't have to die for this. Would she decide to sacrifice herself after knowing? Maybe yes. But Marlene didn't allow it to happen. Had Marlene given Ellie a chance to decide, allowed her & Joel to process what's gonna happen & given them time to say Goodbye, it could be avoided.
I would blame Joel 'only if' he kills everyone even after knowing Ellie's willing to die. Not before that. Joel's actions are a direct result of Marlene's decision to hurry everything without giving Ellie a choice. They waited for 20 years, what's another few months! Joel gave Ellie a choice twice & respected her decisions both the times. ep.6 & ep.9. The only thing I don't like on Joel's part is that he lied to her. IMO he should have been upfront about why he did it. Ellie might have disagreed with his actions but she definitely would have understood his motives (selfless/selfish love for his daughter) better. But he was afraid of losing the relationship. I would be curious to know what Ellie would react when/if she finds out what happened. Will she be angry at Joel - for killing those people or only for lying to her?
To sum up - If Marlene is not in super hurry & give some time to Ellie to respond, only then Joel gets to know what Ellie wants.. If Ellie says Yes & even then Joel kills everyone then & only then he is to be blamed.. If Marlene doesn't give that chance to Elli, then we don't actually know what Ellie might have said 'before' the surgery (Whatever she may say afterwards is her afterthought considering whatever happened). So before the surgery whatever Joel does is a direct consequence of Marlene's actions & only she is to be blamed! As a parent I would do the exact same thing as Joel did. I will take a blame only If I did those killings even after knowing my child's wish to sacrifice themselves. All the best to HBO. If they ignore this simple fact in next season then they will have very angry reactions from parents. Protecting the children from the 'predator' is a primal animal instinct.
fantastic reaction guys & the ending leaves behind choices and consequences, Is Joel selfish saving Elle & saying fuck you to humanity or after the horrific shit he's been through the last 20 years does he deserve happiness? there's no right or wrong answer this is what makes the ending work each viewer can interpret it the way they want too.
Just for my own 2 cents (everyone will have their own, obviously), but Joel did not "screw" the rest of humanity. If "Humanity" needs to sacrifice an innocent without her approval to save itself, you can make a strong argument that it does not deserve to saved. Having said that, there was nothing close to a guarantee that the procedure would have worked, it was essentially an experiment (that would result in an innocent girl's death, by the way) to see if it would work. My point is, it's too easy (and unfair) to put all of this on Joel's shoulders. I am not trying to paint him as a hero, either, he was not. He killed a lot of people, but it's a response that is very understandable under the circumstances. The truth is, Marlene did not want Ellie to know it would kill her, because she didn't want to risk having her say no.....and then be forced to kill her anyway. And Joel would likely not want her to say "yes" and lose her. However, there is a difference between the two.......Marlene had the chance to ask Ellie and didn't take it. Joel did not have that chance, she would have been dead if he hadn't acted. It's a great ending because it's so difficult.
"It's hard to look past." - "9 out of 10" - (and this series reaction was at least a 9 out of 10 as well!)
‘The Last of Us’ Used 12-Day-Old Twins' - Variety
I'm sure that Ellie suspects that he's lying...but at this point can decide to accept it anyways. Everything she has gone through has changed her outlook on right and wrong obviously. It's easy to watch what he does at the end and agree or criticize his decision as a spectator...but imagine if you were told that your child or spouse or loved one of whatever kind was going to be killed so that a group of survivors MIGHT be saved...would you be like "OK"? Or would your protective motivation take over no matter what. We don't know if it will even work...there's a limited amount of people left...her condition keeps her from changing but doesn't protect them from attacking and trying to kill her...and most of human kind have become bigger monsters than the fungus....I don't think the answer is clear by any means.
I never could get into the game, but I'm having a blast watching you guys react to the TV adaptation.
Completely agree that, when it comes to adapting games to TV/film, it makes a HUGE difference when the original creators or even enthusiastic writers/showrunners who actually respect the source material, are on board! So glad TLOU was of a high quality - the cast and crew deserve all the praise! Now for the long, nervous wait for S2!
The Game is one of my favorites of all Time! Easily in my top 5! The game can be called a "Survival Horror game" but the Story is a Love Story! Yes Love can be "Selfish"! 🙄
What is interesting is the guard at the 14.40 mark is the same actor who played the leader of the Saurdakar in Dune(2021).
The actoress for marlene is the only actor to play the same charactor in both the game and the series.
How could u cut out the emotional scene where he says it wasnt time that did it??
I've been subscribed for ages but i haven't got notificatuons for I'd say over a year? Youthbe sucks man. Glad to be back
i never played the 2nd game, i dont know the first thing about it. but my take away was that Ellie didn't buy what joel was selling... it's a poison pill in their relationship and season 2 will likely be the consequences/fall out of joel's actions/lie.
Did marlene know the whole time that this was gonna be a life-ending for ellie? Im not sure.
I was really turned off by joel’s actions, because I tend to prefer the decision that helps the most ppl. However, it was hard to truly hate him, because I cant hate pedro.
It's interesting watching you two debate if Joel did "the right thing" as Tom has the perspective of a parent and Sean does not. They say having kids changes you. So do you think you are more inclined to relate to Joel as a father Tom? I can also see why Marlene did it the way she did. To not panic Ellie or impress the literal weight of humanity's future on the shoulders of a 14 year old. In the end I agree with Sean that it should be Ellie's choice, but what a moral dilema!
Long comment, start reading at your own risk, haha.
I knew a few tidbits from the first game, such as Sarah's death occurring on the night of the outbreak and that the story centred around Joel guiding Ellie across country and forming a father-daughter type bond along the way, I haven't actually played the games, however, so this series has been quite the journey.
Ellie's birth scene was amazing... and tragic... and scary... and beautiful... and really interesting as the likely source of her immunity. What a devastating thing for Marlene though. They certainly were very different people, but like Joel, Marlene was someone hardened by this world. They also both made the same mistake at the end, taking the decision away from Ellie.
I love that following the flashback they then opened up with Ellie's trauma and the change in her personality, hard as it was to see. It is realistic, though, as the experiences she has had over the previous months would undoubtedly damage a person. Especially a teenager, their hormone riddled bodies and brains being generally ill equipped to deal with their emotions as it is, haha..... we've all been there.
Some of the conversations in this episode were so well crafted. The one where Joel tells Ellie they can still turn around, go live a quiet life back at Tommy's, and she responds that they have to go all the way with their mission perfectly foreshadows Joel's conflict later in the episode. He knows Ellie would probably choose to die for a shot at saving humanity, but he just can't stand to lose her.
I also loved the conversation where Joel discusses trying to kill himself. It was the most honest and vulnerable Joel has been with her throughout. I think he realised she was needing that from him, but it was also something he simply wanted to give to her to show just how much she had come to mean to him. He was expressing to her that as dark and painful as it may get at times, you will find the light and the beauty again. You will find yourself again. That of course culminated in the moment where he indicates to Ellie that it was she that had healed him from the wound that was the loss of Sarah, she who had led him back to the light, the beauty, and to himself again - such a touching moment. Seeing Joel come from being this person who was extremely closed-off and bitter for 20yrs to this moment of open vulnerability and hope was such a great representation of that healing and how far their relationship had come.
The sound design on the hospital rescue scene (where Joel rescues Ellie from the surgeon's knife) was amazing. The music was dominant, with the sounds of gunshots, spent shells pinging on the floor, and the occasional agonised scream heard underneath it. That, and the music itself, created a great deal of tension and left a sombre sense in the air. This was no moment of triumph or joy and I think we got that same sombre sense from Joel in the car afterwards. Sure he saved Ellie, but he again had to kill to do it and he also understands that he may have just resigned humanity to eventual extinction. You can see in that moment that he's hugely conflicted and he knows that he acted somewhat selfishly, but he so desperately wanted Ellie to have the chance at a full and decent life that Sarah never got. He also knows that Marlene was probably right when she said that Ellie would give her life for a cure. Afterall, that's why he lies to her, right? Because she would have chosen to sacrifice herself and would be pissed that he did what he did. Despite this, despite knowing that Ellie would probably choose the surgery, he still couldn't bring himself to let her go. Whilst we can all make the argument for why Joel should have acted for the greater good, I think we can all understand why he didn't also, so it's super hard to be highly critical of him or claim that we wouldn't do the same. I think it's this juxtaposition that makes this ending such a compelling one. Ultimately, however, as I said above this should have been Ellie's decision to make and both Joel and Marlene took it from her. They should have fully informed her and then supported/helped her in making her decision in her own time and free from pressure or coercion.
Joel and Ellie's final conversation was again brilliantly crafted. In opening up about Riley I think Ellie was essentially saying to Joel, "Hey, this is my deepest, most painful secret and I'm about to be totally honest with you about it, so I expect you to be the same when I ask you about what happened back at the hospital." She obviously has her doubts about Joel's story, but I think she so desperately wants it to be true, so desperately wants to have not been betrayed by the one person she trusts and loves in this world, that she's willing herself to accept it. Deep down, however, I think there's a part of her that knows he's lying. Please, no spoilers, but I can't help thinking that Joel's lie is going to come back to bite him in the second game/season. Through all this trauma and adversity they've slowly built a loving relationship on a foundation of openness and trust. This fact was really highlighted by the conversations they shared throughout this episode, so I suspect that trust will be broken when Ellie learns the truth about what happened at the hospital and that she still might hold the potential for a cure. Though it pains me to say, I think this will likely be a major source of conflict between the two next season.
Anyway, this first season has been great. The writing, the music, the casting, the directing, the cinematography, the acting, etc, etc, etc has all been top notch. Special mention of course for Bella and Pedro, they've carried this story brilliantly.
Thanks for your reactions, let's do it all again come season two.
I'm biased, I rank this a 10/10 because not only is it a great show on it's own, but an amazing adaptation of an amazing game. I cannot wait for season 2!
He didn't go John wick mode he went Father mode.
I don't think there's much to debate about Joel's actions at the hospital. It wasn't even a conscious decision for him to make - his 'daughter' was about to be murdered without her consent. Of course he's going to kill everyone and get her out (or die trying). Marlene and the Firefly leaders are entirely to blame for the whole incident.
The real debate is whether he should have lied to Ellie about it afterwards. But with his new knowledge of who the Fireflies really are, you can at least understand him wanting to prevent Ellie from searching for them again. Although I think he could have sat her down and explained to her what happened, and she would have perhaps understood. A big risk for Joel though, either way. Their relationship is now damaged forever regardless of whether he lied or not.
Just my opinion and it's a long one. No one has to see it the same way. But I'm on Ellie's side even though I love Joel. However, many see and use Ellie's site only to the extent that it justifies Joel's actions.
Maria said to Ellie: "Be careful who you put your faith in. The only people who can betray us are the one we trust."
And that's exactly what Joel is doing here. Any parent would at least try the same and so would I (but I wouldn't have lied and I would bear the consequences). But Joel is not Ellie's father. He only considers himself to be so, but this is not based on reciprocity. For Ellie, Joel is her only friend and protector, but at eye level. And neither of them would change that. Ellie wouldn't limit her autonomy and independence and Joel wouldn't expect that from her. And then there would no longer be a relationship on the same level. In this respect, they have never called their relationship as father and daughter. Ellie also doesn't seem to like the fact that Joel constantly compares her to his daughter. This clearly comes through in addition to her depression.
In this respect, he never has the right to do what he has done, NOR DOES MARLENE. But both know the answer Ellie would give. Why did Joel lie to Ellie in the end? Because he actually knew better and still acted out of selfishness. Marlene, on the other hand, did not tell Ellie what they would do with her so as not to scare her unnecessarily. Marlene doesn't need Ellie's consent either, she would do it against Ellie's will for the world. Therefore, the argument that many bring that Marlene would be afraid Ellie would say "no" is nonsens. This is not decisive for her. Marlene is simply doing the same thing as the Fedra officer in episode 1 did with the infected boy. She also says this in this sense. We didn't tell her anything, she won't be feel fear.
Marlene has another thing in common with Ellie. Ellie had to kill her girlfriend and for her it must all have some value. The same goes for Marlene. She had to kill her best friend and for both applies it must not have been in vain. Both lost their friends to the fungus, both had to end their lives. So yes, Marlene is the only one who understands Ellie very well and she knows what Ellie would have wanted. Joel knows that too.
An important difference to the game is the feeling you had when you freed Ellie. In the game, on the way to Ellie, you felt like a hero saving your daughter. Here in the series it becomes clear that Joel is not a hero. Supported by the score. Joel is the one who wipes everyone out and extinguishes the hope of saving humanity. I think it's good how this is presented here. How Joel is shown as he was for 20 years. Ruthless, unscrupulous, cold-blooded. And if for 20 years he had the reason to be like this so that his brother and Tess could survive, this is now replaced by selfishness. He has rolled through the hospital like a bulldozer. And that Ellie would have wanted this operation is not a question, after what she experienced and had to do. This was her chosen destiny after losing so many people to the fungus. She made a decision on the day Marlene told her about her imunity. Reinforced by the deaths of Riley and all after her. The first and only decision Ellie could ever make about her life. So far, others have always been determined over her live. Joel took that away from her. And not only that, he took away everything she fought for and what she went through. 3 weeks after Riley's death, which she had to cause, Marlene has given her a meaning that could have saved all humanity. Joel gave her a life with survivor guilt multiplied by all humanity. She has to live with the fact that all the people who died for her and will die in the future, died for nothing. Her mother, Riley, Sam and Henry, and if she finds out the truth one day, she will blame herself for the hospital carnage and Marlene's death. All died for her or because of her and all in vain.
The argument Ellie is still a child and cannot make this decision is nonsense. Ellie hasn't been a child in her head for a long time. She lives in a world where you grow up quickly. She killed, saved lives, injured people, was almost r*p*d and chopped up. She has made mature decisions several times. The last of these was to stand against Joel and go on with a very grown-up reason. She is the only one who can and should make this decision about her life.
Nobody needs to come with the reason that it was not certain that the operation would succeed and that a cure could be produced. Everyone involved believed in it, including Joel. The motives of the characters counts. People like to invent ways that the show or game didn't bring in to justify Joel's actions.
In fact, the only thing Joel said was "find someone else". So if it were up to him, another child could die instead of Ellie. Joel has accepted that Ellie brings the cure to the world as a fact.
And even if there were other immunes out there, Joel also killed probably the only brain surgeon with that kind of knowledge who could have done such an operation. That was a decision he was not allowed to make for Ellie. No matter if he feels that way, he is not her father. And because Joel knows all this, he ends up lying to Ellie.
And Ellie already knows at the moment that he is lying, when she asks if Marlene is ok and he says nothing. She got the same answer when she asked if Joel had killed innocent people. He lies so that he can continue to be her Daddy without consequences for himself. So he takes another decision away from Ellie. Namely, whether she still wants to continue to be connected to him amicably, trustingly.
But what is really bad is that when Ellie wants to say him for the first time how she feels, why she wanted to do this and for whom, he interrupted her, bombards her with platitudes and gives her advices that he himself has not followed. He interrupts her so that he does not have to listen any further, so that he can continue to justify his act for himself. She, on the other hand, can't have all his bullshit since the car anymore and finally interrupts him and makes him swear.
Ellie's bullshit detector is unbearable. Nevertheless, she chooses him over his lies. He means the world to her and all she has is him. Her greatest fear of ending up alone certainly plays a role. They love each other and would do anything for each other. Or it is rather dependency. In any case, the long-built trust is now gone.
The moment Joel swears is also the moment when Ellie knows she would have died in the hospital.
I would like to point out a very interesting conversation that took place in the pilot episode between Tommy, Joel and Sarah. This was about love and dependence.
Tommy comes into the kitchen and greets Joel and Sarah with a not so nice word.
Sarah to Joel: "Oooh, he loves you"
Joel: "He is dependent on me. It's not the same."
Sarah: "I think it's the same"
I think this conversation is very interesting in connection with the dynamic between Joel and Ellie.
To what extent is this love.
To what extent is it dependence.
To what extent do the two things go together?
And are Joel and Ellie even on the same page when it comes to that? Or confuse both love with dependence.
I also find the conversation between Joel and Ellie questionable in which he tells her that he wanted to kill himself. The conversation itself was okay, but I don't think it's okay to tell her that she's the reason he sees life positively again. He puts even more pressure on Ellie. He made himself dependent on her existence and let her know that.
That's not right. She now constantly has in her head how he will feel when she is away.
Well, the authors of the game had not thought of a continuation of the game at that time. That's the advantage of the series. They can prepare much better for the upcoming season and thus make everything that comes in part 2 more comprehensible for everyone.
This was an excellent but unfortunately much too short episode. The whole series was just great. I'm looking forward to the second season.
Ellie not only has the knife from her mother, but also the jacket she lay in as a baby.
The giraffe was real. Her name is Nabo or Nobu. Something like that.
Laura Bailey the voice actor of Abby from TLOU2 was one of the assistant doctors.
I've played both games together 20 times and I love them. I love this series. The best I've seen in a long time. I love Joel and Ellie. I feel the need to play again now with the knowledge of what is now added by the series.
The thing is, your not supposed to get the feeling Joel is needy as much as they have now switched places. Joel was closed off due to trauma and Ellie was the chatty, upbeat one, now Joel is trying his best to help Ellie through her trauma. Also, Joel did the right thing taking out anyone who could come after them, plus Marlene was willing to kill Ellie on only a doctors “Guess” as they have not done any research or studies with Ellie’s blood, tissue samples prior, to make it logical to just kill your one immune human.Dudes your killing me with the insane edits, you literally cut out the two most important dialogue segments??? Ouch!!!
As someone who came into this without playing the game, I have a world-renown scientist in the 60's saying there is no cure (episode 1). I have the world's leading expert in the field in 2003 saying there is no cure (episode 2). And I'm supposed to believe that whatever scientist the Fireflies scraped up 20 years post-Apocalypse took one look at Ellie and said, "Oh, yeah. Let's kill the kill the only person who seems immune and prove my little hypothesis. No research. No blood tests. Let's just cut into her brain (despite the real life fact that cordyceps affects everything BUT THE BRAIN in ants) and half-ass our way to a cure."? So, it's no sure bet that "Joel has doomed humanity".
As a matter of fact, if Marlene believes what the doctor says about Ellie's immunity, she could just replicate another Ellie with a pregnant woman and a captured infected. Hey, no moral quandary there, right? Saving humanity and all that.
I think part of the discussion that is often left out, is that the cure isn't guarenteed to work. In the first and second episodes we are told that there is no way that a cure could be found 'We Loose' The scientific world today would have no way of curing it so imagine a world stuck in 2003 with limited resources and falling apart, trying to solve the problem. They wouldn't stand a chance!
I agree with Joel. I would kill everyone for someone I love.
They have no idea if the procedure would’ve worked
Are RUclips guy who is a doctor said the last thing you would want to do is kill the only person you’ve ever found that immune by taking out their brain
The makers of the game said every parent agrees that he did the right thing 👍🏻
I hope next season is -at least- as well adapted as this one, because some roles are going to be hard to fill. The videogame is too iconic and it's hard to find actors that can sell you their characters.
In case Shaun sees this: I believe you said you played the first game, have you played the second one? If not, will you play it before season two comes out or just wait to be surprised?
For me, I'd say this season is a 8/10, just as the first game. I like it but when compared to the second one it feels a bit weak(?). Respectfully, of course, but I always felt like the second game was so much more intense and frantic, like you could feel the hatred, the anguish and the fear. It gave me so many emotions, such a complex plot. People who hate on it cannot be trusted!
Symbolism missed:
Elle's mom held a knife to her next. Joel at the end had a fresh knife wound at his neck. (Don't know how he got it).
Both Elle' mom and Joel lied to protect her life.
Fedra kills a kid in the 1st episode. The fireflies try to in the finale. Theres no difference. Except the Fireflies are incompetent.
My thoughts: I'm Team Joel. If you have to sacrifice a child to save the world. The world isn't worth saving.
There wasn't a cure. Just a theory. The doctor isn't a real doctor. Why kill the only immune being you know. What about tests: blood, CT scan, bone marrow, lymph nodes, brain stem & etc.
Elle isn't an adult. Plus she's suffering from survivor guilt, savior complex and PTSD. Even if she was 18 years old. She wasn't in the right frame of mind to make an informed decision.
Ellie would have done the same for Joel. She tried too in episode 6. Y'all just saying Joel'selfish because we didn't get Ellie's verbal confirmation of her love for Joel. But we've seen many non verbal gestures from her to him. Not the other way around from Joel until this episode.
Joel isn't trying to replace Sarah. He recognized they're two different people. People can love again. Get remarried after losing a spouse or have another child after losing one. It's only replacement if you try to force them to act and be like your lost love one. Joel's not trying to do that.
It's always the lie/coverup that gets you. Interesting Joel on top of the mountain was in essence saying what Elle's mom wrote in a letter in the game. Go on, find something to fight for. Value yourself. Which Elle doesn't at this point.
Marlene was doing a hail Mary. Because the fireflies been fighting with Fedra for 20 years. With nothing to show. Her words. They would not share the cure even if it was viable with Fedra.
The world is in a dark age like after the fall of the Roman Empire. A cure won't solve the barbarism and lack of knowledge. More Jacksons are needed.
They're splitting the second half of the games into 2 seasons. My guess is to milk Pedro' for all he's worth.
Love it
I can’t WAIT for season 2. Despite what some ppl say I think the second games is even better than the first. Gonna be gnarly af tho
it a very good game. I think the story telling is even better than the first.
♥️♥️♥️
As a generic sci-fi show, I thought Halo was alright. As a Halo adaptation, awful.
I dont really think there is a right decision in this episode, other than letting Ellie choose after having been told every detail. We're told the cure would work by the creators, but for the characters in the story, its an unknown. Marlene even says the doctor "thinks" it could be a cure.
But then Ellie is likely pretty traumatised, so is she really healthy enough to make the decision on whether to die? Regardless of whether she thinks she's saving the world.
So i think Joel made the only choice he could, with what he knew,regardless of how much he likes Ellie.
But even if they have a cure, it only stops you turning if you get infected. So to say the cure is what will fix a broken world is a massive leap through time, and ignoring all the other issues that are broken.
Marlene says "How long till shes torn apart by infected or murdered by raiders?" Both of which could still happen, cure or no cure. And seem to be the biggest danger, rather than just getting merely infected.
7:32 *Tom:* _"She was never told that Marlene knew."_ 🧪🧫 Knew what? If you mean, that she was immune, there's no way *Marlene* would have even suspected that of *Ellie.*
If I misunderstood your meaning, I apologize. 🤷🏼♂️
Great 9 episodes and reactions. As a fan of the game, i loved the adaptation. It is a good show and I can see myself watching it again. The additions they made didn’t overshadow or replace things. I am a bit skeptical because of season 2. I won’t say anything because it is best to go in completely blind.
Now, I didn’t know that Amazon is making a God Of War show. That is concerning, and I have no faith in them. I say that because they disrespected the legacy of JRR Tolkien with their Lord Of The Rings tv show.
Would this “cure” have really even worked?
No guarantee for that at all. Would a competent doctor really kill the only known living immune person. Instead of carefully studying her/trying to find another solution? Honestly, I bet FEDRA has more qualified doctors/scientists.
The answer is definitively no. How do I know that? Because Ellie was immune for the whole game/show and she was still in constant danger. Replicating her immunity in other humans changes very little this long after the outbreak. The world is still full of monsters that can kill you outright and the surviving enclaves of humanity are still at war over the dwindling, limited resources. The fireflies plan solves nothing.
Ellie already gave Joel her decision when she refused to go back to Jackson. In Ellie’s mind her whole life is leading to this hospital to try to make a cure regardless if she lives or dies
i will say i love the series and completely agree that its important when you have such good stories in games not to change it too much. the only thing i wish was there was 1 more episode for the cannibals since David feels a bit underdeveloped and the arc feels a bit rushed.
If you think about it, did he really "screw the world" with his choice? Yes, he was selfish by not being honest with Ellie and giving her the choice. But is the Immunity from the Cordycepts all THAT important to the world? It's been around for 20 years, and not only are people surviving, but thriving. Bill & Frank lived happy lives within that time. The old Native-American couple living in their cabin are none the worse. The people in Jackson WI are flourishing, even having children. All these people are thriving INSPITE of not being immune, and there are probably a lot more people/communities like them.
I think the show illustrated well that it's not the Cordycepts that are the threat, but people themselves. The Cordycepts are just another part of Nature that is hostile towards Humans, just like every other wild, ferocios, poisonous plant & animal out trying to kill us, and we've managed to keep them at bay for our survival. We're not immune from Nature, we just know ways to live with it. So maybe searching for Immunity isn't the answer.
I mean, have they even considered Eradication? A Fungicide, maybe? Figuring out efficient methods of trapping and killing Stalkers, Clickers and Bloaters (burning seems the best method) and finally eradicating the Cordycept fungus itself? It seems it would be better to exhaust all other methods before resorting to killing a child in the HOPES it MIGHT yield immunity MAYBE.
Why on earth you cut out the most vulnerable dialogue between Joel and Ellie? Ah I see.. Patreon.
i'm so with shaun on joel. i love him and his character but in this episode he made me uneasy from the start. when he finally opened up, it was like a broken dam: all the feelings just spilled out. his out-of-character enthusiasm, especially opposite ellie's quiet demeanor now, was so unnerving. i really disliked him in this episode especially when ellie gave him a chance to confess and he didn't. i get why he lied and his need to protect ellie at all cost. but when she confronted him, obviously showing how she knows him well enough now and getting that inkling that he was lying, and he straight up lied, i thought, damn, it's gonna be bad when she finds out. this was sad. can't wait for season 2.
Joel's out of character enthusiasm is because he was trying to cheer up Ellie. When someone you love is quiet and seem to be distraught, you'd do anything to make them laugh again, even if that means you have to be out of your character. About him spilling his feelings, as I said before, he was trying to make Ellie feel better again. But Joel isn't the kind of person who's good at dealing with others's grief or psychological issue (ref to Ep 4 after Ellie shot Bryan), but he's aware for awhile that Ellie is dealing with her trauma. Him talking about his suicide attempt is a way to tell Ellie that it gets better ("the reason why I tell you this"/"time heals everything") but also letting Ellie know that he loves her, but not as forward as saying "I love you".
Watch Georgia Dow (therapist reacts) breaks down all the psychological issue in this episode...it really puts different perspective to Joel's actions.
I don't think Joel did anything wrong here. Imagine you are the only MILITANT force in the world that is immune, would such an organization be benign in giving away the medication or horde it so that the rival factions wither and die. The only thing worse for Joel to see Ellie being martyred would be Ellie becoming a weapon.
showrunners are saying 3 seasons.. splitting part 2 into 2. I'm 100% team Joel here. The odds of them actually creating a cure in this primitive world is very low and at the very least, Ellie should have had the choice. I think she'd have made that sacrifice tho and he shouldn't have lied.
Judging by the conversation between Ellie and Joel earlier in the episode, she would have chosen to sacrifice herself. She didnt want all shes done to be for nothing.
She said she would follow him anywhere after the procedure was done.She had absolutely no idea she would die from it.
You cut out “it wasn’t time that did it”?!?!?!?! I was waiting to see your reactions to it 😢
Pay up on patreon!
i hope joel finds a nice hobby. maybe he'll pick up golf or something,
I don’t think any parent would have done anything different than Joel.
The utilitarian principle, from my experience doesn't apply Parents will Do some crazy things for their Kids. He is giving away a 2nd daughter for them to experiment on - THE CURE MAY NOT WORK. SO they are asking a Parent to sacrifice their Kid? I know people that will end your existence messing with their pets.
Gah, that's twice in a row you've skipped the most emotional moment in the episode!
Our full length reaction includes this 😊
@@CinemaRules YES! Thank goodness I kept reading comments to get this confirmation you cut the good parts on purpose for patreon. Hilarious.
@@titusorelius9458 let us explain how RUclips and Patreon work, we didn’t cut it on purpose for Patreon, we had to cut it for RUclips because of copyright claims, the studio specifically highlighted that part of the video and asked us to omit it, however because Patreon is a separate entity, it’s allowed to be shown there
@@CinemaRulesUh huh. _Riiight._
😜 J/K
Still. . .makes for a great motivation. 😋
Be well and glogablop. 🙋🏼♂️
@@CinemaRules That's really strange when every other RUclips reaction to this episode includes that part. It's weird how they've picked on just you to remove that exchange between Joel & Ellie.
This show did so much right and this comes straight from the source material, but like in so many scripts getting hit in the head to move the story along is just ridiculous. We saw Joel get knocked out like 10 times; dude would be a bubbering vegetable. Some patients can't see for an extended period post several concussive hits and other forms of permanent neurological impairment is the rule, not the exception. Maybe that's why he's a murdering psycho? ...I wish it had that much depth but it's totally ignored as usual.
As far as Ellie, she has the fungus incorporated into her immune system/body, you're not going to be able to replicate that for living people. Gene replacement doesn't work like that. Maybe they can inoculate babies, but she's got to die no matter what so they can see which receptors are being utilized and so we can see the extent of the integration. Oh well, it's just a really long way to bring up the train problem anyway. So edgy.
Please do Yellowjackets 🙏🏼🙏🏼
I PROBABLY FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT JOEL AS SEAN DOES, I UNDERSTAND HIM BUT THE LIE AND SWEARING TO IT AT THE END WAS NOT QUITE THE RIGHT THING!!! I COULD GIVE IT A PASS FOR THE MOMENT BUT HOPEFULLY WITHIN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME AFTER EVERYTHING COOLS OFF JOEL WOULD TELL HER THE TRUTH!! SHE DOESN'T DESERVE TO KNOW!! IF I WERE JOEL I WOULD CERTAINLY STRESS THE FACT THAT THEY WERE GOING TO KILL HER IN ORDER TO DO THIS, AND IT WASN'T EVEN A CERTAINTY THAT THEY WOULD EVER GET A CURE!!!
THERE IS A STATEMENT THAT I SAW SOMEWHERE ELSE AND I JUST LOVE IT AND CANNOT STOP SHARING IT!!
IS A WORLD THAT WOULD SACRIFICE THE LIFE OF A CHILD TO SAVE ITSELF REALLY WORTH SAVING???
I remember people saying "it's not that simple" when Henry admitted to Joel that he's a bad person because he gave up a resistance leader in order to save his brother Sam. Then the same people also said Joel is a villain/bad person for saving Ellie.
My guess is because Sam is Henry's blood and has been with him since birth. Sam is 8 and Henry seems, perhaps 19. Both are children. In the end, Joel is a 56 year old man, who has only known Ellie for a year. It isn't that simple. It does help that Joel and Ellie are the main protagonists, so the audience knows them better, but in universe...
@@CandaceYoung962 but unlike Henry, Joel has lost his daughter, and somehow Ellie showed up and fill that emptiness inside him again. It's not fair to compare love based on whether they're of blood relation or not when in real life, the love you have for the family you choose is often more than your love for the family of your blood. Don't forget that Ellie also returned Joel's love for her, they saved each other and went through a tough journey.
It's the fact that audience know them better that they should be able to relate to their feelings better.
LoL, are they skipping over all the heartfelt moments in order too push people to Patreon to get full reactions? The love of money ruins everything folks.
No, I haven’t gotten that impression at all. I think they mentioned at the beginning of this video that it is a reaction video and they may miss a brief portion of the episode whilst they give their review. It happens.
@@VolcanoGroupie also copyright claims force us to edit the video down, studios highlight specific areas within our video we need to omit
@@CinemaRules Understood. You are 2 of my favorite reviewers, especially when you review horror, sci fi and fantasy!
RUclips is a business, not a charity. They put time, effort and money into this channel. They should be compensated for their labor.
one thing alot of reactors seem confused on.. Ellie was acting distant not because she had to kill that guy i mean thats part of it but also shes 14 and was about to be raped by a grown man. im a grown man so its hard to 100% understand but i can imagine that would be really traumatizing for a young girl. i feel like a lot of reactors have downplayed what she went through. you guys seemed quite understanding though but ive seen some people be like wtf is up with her? which is quite weird for me. As soon as i saw how she was acting (i didnt play the games btw) my mind went there and felt so bad for her. like her innocence was lost.
Ellie already made the choice. She said no half measures and she was going all the way. That she didn't want what they had been through to be for nothing. That was her choice. She didn't need to hear the details. She was willing to do whatever it took. Joel took that choice from her. He knew what she wanted and how she felt and still chose to not let her do it. Then lying to her on top of it. He was very selfish. Some of those fireflies would have had families of their own. So he robbed them also.
I don't understand why they didn't try to recreate it. Marlene knew how Ellie was born. We also know from the game that they were growing it and studying it. I'm sure there were fireflies that would have volunteered for the experiment. They were willing to kill Ellie for a cure, so I don't think they would have any qualms on the mom/baby dying.
I guess it just depends on how far you are willing to go for a cure. What you are willing to sacrifice. Joel only cares for family. He never had hope for a cure anyway, and his family can be safe in Jacksonville.
There are supposed to be 2 seasons. They follow the games. I hope they do not add any extra seasons. It should wrap up nicely in the second season and I hope they do not split that season up.
But she explicitly spoke of what her & Joel were going to do together afterwards and also clearly talked of donating her blood for them to analyse. Which tells me she had no idea they would want to murder her. She may have eventually agreed to sacrifice herself, but there's no way Joel would know that based on their conversations together. She was about to be murdered without giving any consent.
@@MrPicklerwoof She was comforting Joel. She isn't dumb and im sure she had been thinking of all the possibilities. I would have been. The possibility of her dying was always there. We know where and how the cordyceps grows. We know how it takes over your brain. To not even consider that possibility would be foolhardy.
She was committed. Giving a little comfort to Joel, to put him at ease, doesn't mean that she was backing down. She said no half measures and that is what that includes. Otherwise, it WOULD be a half measure. You know yourself, that her choice if asked would be to go through with it. What has she said or done that makes you believe that she would have made that choice if they told her she would die? I'm curious to know. Was it her saying no half measures? Her saying I don't want it to be for nothing? Her willingness to, without hesitation to cut her hand open to try and heal Sam? You obviously know what her choice was. She did not need to hear the details. She was going to save humanity. She chose.
@@coldrains2 You don't have to keep telling me what 'I obviously know', I'm disagreeing with you on these things. Ellie was talking about 'going all the way' in the context of Joel's suggestion of turning round and going to Jackson. She was basically saying 'no, we need to get to the Fireflies'. And making a small cut in her hand to get some blood on to Sam's leg actually kind of proves my point - she always assumed her blood was going to be the solution, not her brain being diced up.
She may have agreed to it at some point, but not without discussing it with Joel beforehand at the very least. There is no way in a million years Ellie would have been okay with being drugged, murdered without her consent and without saying goodbye to Joel.
@@MrPicklerwoof In your first comment you said she would have made that choice eventually. So that is how you obviously know. Otherwise why say she would have gone through with it, if you don't think she would have? If you think she would have gone through with it, what are your reasons for thinking that? What about her that she has done or said that makes you think that? There is something, otherwise you wouldn't think she would make that choice if asked again. It's not murder either. She volunteered herself. It's always funny to me how the Joel stans will condemn the fireflies for Ellie dying, but are ok with Joel murdering everyone because he thinks, despite what Ellie tells him and despite the kind of person she is, that she needs to be saved.
She would have known that just her blood wouldn't work. If that's all it took Marlene just had to get some from her while they were in Boston. With Sam it was just hope and an unwillingness to not do something to help him. Even if it was something hopeless, she still had to try. Do you think that, for some reason, she would not have thought of the possibility of dying, when she knows that cordyceps grows in the brain? You are telling me, that amongst all this death, and knowing what you know, that you would have never ever considered the possibility that you would have to die? That is called being a fool. I guess there really are some people out there who don't actually think things all the way through, think of the possibilities and the consequences, when it concerns something so important as your life. I like to think that in this apocalyptic world, that there would be less foolish people. She is also 14yrs old and to think that she never would have thought about dying is foolhardy also. She was risking her life to do what was needed.
You are reducing the kind of person she is. Reducing how smart and determined she is, reducing her compassion and the fact that she cares for humanity. If she didn't, she never would have left. If she wasn't willing to do whatever it took, she would have stayed in Jacksonhole. We see throughout the whole season who she is and what she is willing to do and go through for a cure. It's idiotic and not logical to think she didn't decide how far she was willing to go.
I think the most glaringly obviously dumb thing about the game and the show, was the fact that they didn't sneak the doctor into the Boston QZ. They were willing to risk Ellie's life for her to get to the fireflies, but not risk the Doctor's life to get to her? How much more do you need it shoved in your face what they planned on? They didn't need her alive to get a cure.
She was not just saying we need to get to the fireflies. She was letting him know that she was going to do whatever it took.
Wtf does NO HALF MEASURES mean? Does it mean, we will go and see what they say and then I will change my mind and go back with you to Jacksonville? No it doesn't. What does, It all can't be for nothing mean? Does it mean, well we got here and I don't like the plan so I guess we can leave and discount everything we have been through as no big deal. I had to kill someone because this world is f***ed and I have the chance to save it, but I'm not going to because I like half measures and I don't actually want it all to be for anything. I just meant that we need to at least make it here to the fireflies for no apparent reason except to waste time. We can go ahead and leave now.
Again, do you think if the fireflies asked her again and told her she would die, that she would NOT go through with it? Let's see how your answer changes.
@@coldrains2 Sorry but your whole tone is just really dismissive, arrogant and you seem to struggle with handling different opinions to your own. It's very hard to summon up the desire to continue discussing it with you if this is how you choose to enter into debate.
Season 2 is going to piss off the t.v. audience, like it did the gamers w/ part 2 😆
I was uncomfortable with this episode's Joel.... After the shooting. He seemed to open up but he also seemed to lose his humanity. He became a totally different person. And the way he was talking to Ellie on the hike was so uncomfortable and kind of icky. It was like he lost his mind Completely compartmentalised it. Like he had no idea what he had just done. it seemed Ellie was put off by it as well. It reminded me of the end of OF MICE AND MEN. Or like he became Gollum