So we're all on Team Joel... right?!? *The Last of Us* - Ep 9 Reaction
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- We're at the finish line!!! God, what am I supposed to do with my life now? I've gotten so attached to Joel and Ellie, it's unhealthy at this point. This episode has solidified my place in the Joel Defense Squad, and I will not change my mind. I could rant all day how offing Ellie did not have to be the first course of action - far from it actually - and the Fireflies are officially cancelled... and stupid... and just super annoying.
Yes, Joel should've told Ellie the truth at least, and it makes me sick to think how Ellie has lost that trust with him, but we're gonna pretend everything is SUPER and they all lived happily ever after... until next time of course.
If you would've chosen your child over the fate of mankind, give this video a like, respectfully comment your thoughts (no spoilers, DUH) and, as always, SUBSCRIBE!! Or don't. I can't make you. :)
PS: Let me know what you want me to react to next! Current ideas include: The White Lotus, The Bear, OBX Season 3, Ted Lasso, Star Wars, or whatever else you can think of!
Socials:
Insta - @rachelkolibas
Patreon: patreon.com/user?u=85963408
There is no good choice here. That's the point. Joel isn't a hero or villain... he is a father.
If I was Joel I would do the same. Or at least attempt and probably die trying 😅
When it comes to this last episode, I can't help but think back to Bill's note in Ep3. "You and I have a job to do. And god help any motherfucker that gets in our way."
There was one line cut from Ellie's speech at the end and I wish they had left it in.
"I'm still waiting my turn."
In reference to everyone that she has seen die.
no, don't break my heart even more!!
Joel had a second chance to save his daughter, and this time he did everything in his power to make sure it happened at all costs
Quote from Troy baker who did the motion capture and the voice of Joel in the game and was James in episode 8 (the one Ellie put a cleaver in his neck, so Ellie killed Joel 😂😂)
“So people have asked me, why would Joel do that when he could have saved the world, and my answer to them is always this - he did, he did save the world. It's just that the world was that girl, and that's it”
To not lose the most important person to him, he had to betray that persons trust, and thus might lose her anyways. Basically the "You may hate me, but you will be alive to hate me."
All his over sharing at the end, and his pep talk to her, are him subconsciously trying to convince himself he did the right thing.
Joel's rampage mode has been his defense mechanism for 20 years. Dissociate and survive. You know he is in that mode with the short, monotone talking and glassy look.
In the end though he lived up to what he had been told by fallen friends:
Tess "Save who you can save"
Bill "and god help any mother frakker who gets in our way"
I think I agree with Joel's actions but it really is tough. In the end neither side gave Ellie a choice, but Joel not giving her a choice by saving her is very different than the Fireflies not giving her a choice by killing her. The RIGHT course of action would be to explain to Ellie what the procedure means, let her talk to Joel and decide what she wants to do. She almost certainly would have chosen to do the procedure, especially with the mindset she was in. And there's a small chance she could have convinced Joel that it's okay, as he would have time to spend with her, to actually say goodbye (That he didn't get to do with Sarah) and have time to process what's happening. Marlene basically chose to do things in the worst possible way.
This is the best, and only, way of interpreting the moral dilemma around this scenario.
If it's any consolation, the game ended with that exact scene, shot for shot, including "okay" and cut to black. And we didn't know there even WOULD be a second one for four more years.
The Fireflies weren't taking "No" for an answer and Joel wasn't taking "Yes" for an answer. What sucks is that either way Ellie would have never actually had a choice in the matter, even though she obviously would've said yes to the procedure. Especially when you factor in the conversation they had while looking at the family of giraffes. I think people focusing on whether the cure would've worked or not are kinda missing the point though. Neil Druckmann (The Creator) himself said the cure would have worked if they went through with the operation. Another interesting thing he also said was that when they were doing game testing, people were generally 50/50 on the decision, but of the people who were on Joel's side, all of them were parents.
@@Atari26 typically I'd agree with the 14 year old not being able to consent part, but that would only be enforced under functioning society. Which obviously this world does not have currently on a large scale.
@@Atari26 This is the post apocalypse, there is no such thing as legal contracts. It's her life and her decision, Ellie is significantly more mature and capable of making decisions than you are giving her credit for. Also, they absolutely did run tests on her. Several. The only notes from the surgeon in the game was a recorder where he talked about the tests he ran on her blood that show it can grow cordyceps but all white blood cell counts remain the same even in the fungus's presence, and that they have never seen anything like it. He never calls it an "exploratory procedure" at all.
@@Atari26 also, is that not similar the real world situation with Henrietta Lacks? Where I believe they took her samples from her without her knowledge or consent, studied them, and then went onto use those cancer cells in quite a few key discoveries in the medical field. For example, I believe their most recent use was in the making of the COVID vaccine.
@@Atari26 They did run tests on her, I'm not sure why you're just assuming they didn't. The tests they ran are mentioned multiple times in the game, and the surgeon's notes even specify the results of one of those tests on her blood.
You misunderstood what Druckmann said about the game testing. Parents were 100% Joel, non-parents were 50/50.
Joel wicks hospital scene is imo one of the best ever put to film... It was beautiful without being glorifying... Hauntingly stunning and moving while also being somewhat disgusting... Thats the absolute true meaning of love and family imo...
I think a good way of looking at The Last of Us is that there's always a cost. You get your sweet moments, but you feel immense pain later on in exchange.
And by extension, Joel got his happy ending, but it ain't for free.
i think it's so interesting how we spent the entire season building this trust within one another to at the very end sort of break it or damage it.
Respectfully, I mean what was he gonna do, tell her he sh*t up a hospital
@@austinwhalen8217 yes...that's my point
This week's gold star for editing goes to . . . 13:37 "Duh" - Billie Eilish
Luv ya, Rae!
Let's be clear: As soon as Ellie realized she had been drugged, she suspected they were going to kill her. As soon a Joel said they weren't looking for a cure, she suspected he was lying. As soon as she noticed her clothes were gone, she suspected he had stopped the procedure. As soon as he said raiders attacked, she suspected Joel stopped it violently. And when Joel didn't answer the question about Marlene, it was exactly like when she asked him if he had killed innocent people at the stairwell in Kansas City and he remained silent.
You put it perfectly
Ellie suspected she was going to die when she passed out?! So much BS, it makes no sense. No, she didn't believe so because Marlene didn't tell her and she trusts Marlene.
@@bawzzzz I mean the logic does make sense that if they were just going to run regular tests they wouldn’t have knocked her out and kept her knocked out without talking.
@@bawzzzz I'm talking about the car ride. She put things together quickly after waking up.
This is important because it means that when she confronted Joel about his lie, she already knew they were going to take her life, meaning she would have been willing to sacrifice herself if she had been given the choice (even after deducing they didn't give her a choice).
I know it’s not exactly the same as the game but still, in ten years of loving this story I have never seen someone word it so well
that cut to pedro at the oscars im presuming made me bust out laughing likea a maniac
5:25 she was bitten on the leg. we know from the poster in ep1 that this would give her around 15~24h to turn
Ellie giving birth to Ellie was a beautiful way to open the episode
Joel went full John Wick...
100% team Joel! Anyone who says otherwise either doesn’t have kids or doesn’t have a soul… if you have a child and would still do this, then you’re just a terrible human.
And for the sake of argument, even if she did agree… SHE’S 14! Her brain is not even close to being developed enough to make a that kind of decision.
THANK YOU! Exactly her brain isn't even fully developed. Like there is a reason even in our time you need the permission of an adult guardian for certain decisions.
I also want to add that Ellie is not only a teen but a heavily traumatized teenager with mental health issues and survivors guilt. She doesn't think her life has value beyond being able to help with a cure. She never had a chance to figure herself out or deal with her mental healthband everything she has been through.
Ofc she would be ready to sacrifice herself because she has no real will to live. You send someone like that to therapy if they are suicidal and not use them for your own cause.
back in 2014 when i played the game, i remember feeling conflicted, but totally empathizing with Joel because I loved Ellie too, as she was with us the whole time. I'm 26 now and not a father, and I never wanna be (i'm childfree), but I AM an uncle! If it were any of my nieces or nephews, I'd definitely do the same as Joel in that situation
Just because they are minors doesn't mean they shouldn't have Rights to decide about themselves and their future.
In some countries the legal age to VOTE is 16, in some, 15 is the legal drinking age. In some, 16 year olds can join the military.
The Netherlands rightfully has opened the law to UNDER 12 the Right to decide on Doctor Assisted Suicide with parental consent. (over 12 with parental consent had been already legal for decades and for over 16 you don't need parental consent at all)
Many countries and states rightfully allow an 8 year old to decide to be placed on hormone blockers, or a 12 year old can ask to be placed on hormone therapy.
They SHOULD have that Right.
And Ellie, at near, if not already, 15 by the time they reach the Hospital as several seasons has past, should have the Right to decide if she is willing to die for the greater good/mercy of others.
As a parent, I’m totally with Joel in his scorched earth approach to someone trying to kill their child. However, unlike Joel, id be dead in 3 seconds, but I’d have gone down in a (lame) blaze of glory attempting to save my child! And totally get the lie too, cos whatever it takes to keep them safe and ‘happy’, but it also makes my skin hurt to lie. What a genius dilemma and ending to the season!
I think people keep bringing up Ellie's choice like Ellie's choice matters. It doesn't. She's a child. She can make the decision to literally die when she's an adult. And him lying to her might hurt her, but that's called parenting. He can tell her the truth when she's an adult. A parent can only take a child's opinion and child up to a certain point, and letting herself die is... way past that point.
Agreed! Ellie is a CHILD (even though a very tough and smart one!) and is no where near old enough to make decisions about giving up her life for *possible* (!) immunity (I don't think they really mean "cure"). She's VERY traumatized as well!!
Just because they are minors doesn't mean they shouldn't have Rights to decide about themselves and their future.
In some countries the legal age to VOTE is 16, in some, 15 is the legal drinking age. In some, 16 year olds can join the military.
The Netherlands rightfully has opened the law to UNDER 12 the Right to decide on Doctor Assisted Suicide with parental consent. (over 12 with parental consent had been already legal for decades and for over 16 you don't need parental consent at all)
Many countries and states rightfully allow an 8 year old to decide to be placed on hormone blockers, or a 12 year old can ask to be placed on hormone therapy.
They SHOULD have that Right.
And Ellie, at 15/near it after passing several seasons by the time they are reach the Hospital, should have the Right to decide if she is willing to die for the greater good/mercy of others and herself.
@12:00 "who do I have to kill?"
Me: Everyone! lol
Team Joel, wise words from Robert once“ fuck those fireflies” lmao
Team Joel 100% as a Dad myself. Naughty Dog did a poll of their workers when they made the game. Nonparents were 50/50 with Joel's decision, parents 100% with him. I think that says it all.
not a father myself but i would do the same for myt little niece and nephew
What if you're not Joel and your child is now at risk of infection forever because he ruined the chance at a vaccine? How would you feel about his actions when your own child got infected?
@@clarkmichaels822 i'd be thinking he is a terrible and selfish person for not giving up one life to save many others but that's because it's not my kid that has to die for it.. joel doing the right thing and "dooming" humanity at the same time can co-exist in my book 🤷♀
6:10 Thank you Ashley, you did an amazing job in this role and as OG Ellie. If Ashley does not get an Emmy for this I shall be personally offended on her behalf. 8:39 Straight out of the game. A most beautiful moment in Ellie's life. 10:25 NOT in the game. The game has Joel as this Ultimate badass (which he is) that has only one flaw the Murder of Sarah. HBO made Joel HUMAN. He is older, going deaf from all the shooting, has the ultimate burden of having killed innocents and he tried and failed at taking himself out. That is why I want to give him a big hug. Damn you Naughty Dog & HBO for making me cry; AGAIN.
I'm on both sides. If it was ME immune and given the choice I would let the surgery happen For All Mankind (if you know you know). But if it was MY segregate Daughter I would do just what Joel did. No hesitation.
Ehh. Regarding 10:25, while they don’t quite spell it out the same way, you could at least come to the conclusion that Joel contemplated self alive’nt for a while. He and Ellie find someone who opted out and Ellie says they “took the easy way out.” Joel responds that while they must’ve preferred it over death at the hands of infected or raiders, “trust me… it ain’t easy.”
Ellie would definitely choose to sacrifice herself but that's an easy choice. The choice she needs to actually make is if she is willing to sacrifice Joel too if she dies because Joel will not be able to go on and will probably not miss shooting himself again.
I don't know. If it was her choice to do it and it worked, then i think he'd be okay with it. The problem is that neither one actually gives her a choice.
@@justinbaileyASU Joel knows she would have done it and believes it would have worked, but stops it anyway. No one asked her because they already know. That’s why he lied about it. That’s the whole point.
@@TukaihaHithlec yes.
I’m just here for the Cat on the shelf 🐱🐈
I'm on team Joel but I feel uneasy about it, which is what the writers wanted I think.
Neither one of them would’ve taken her opinion into consideration. Marlene wouldn’t have taken a no for an answer and I truly don’t think Joel would’ve let her do it. They both were going to do whatever it took to get what they wanted
This. Neither Joel nor Marlene asked Elly because they'd only accept one answer. Joel KNOWS Ellie would sacrifice herself for a chance at the cure. She's been saying it for almost a year. He ultimately did what he wanted because he didn't want to lose another daughter.
Oh crap….ur right. Joe left witnesses when he didnt kill the nurses. Uh oh.
You should watch more Pedro stuff and give reactions…his movie The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent is a good one. Also, Narcos. Just cuz he is hot af in it.
Yes, we are team Joel! 😁
Even if Marlene had given Ellie a choice, and she had said no, there’s no way they would have let her go. They were all willing to murder a child for not even a guaranteed cure.
So Marlene started the ball rolling and at that point Joel only had one recourse. The only mistake Joel made in my opinion was lie to Ellie at the end.
And that’s without the argument that Ellie is a 14 year old traumatised child, no matter how mature she may seem, she isn’t equipped to make that kind of choice. Joel has been a parent before, he knows this.
The only ethical choice would be to protect her until she’s old enough to make that choice.
yes completely agree!!
Team Joel all the way.
People on Team Marlene/Fireflies didn't listen to what has been said throughout the whole episode.
Welcome to the Joel Miller Apologist squad! We've got Chef Boyardee and jerky :) I can debate all day about Joel's decision but I think it comes down to this. Ellie is 14, guilt ridden and traumatized. She was literally just talking about how she feels like everyone's deaths are her fault and how she is trying to make her trauma mean something. Even if she was given the ability to choose, she is in no state to properly consent. It is like asking a depressed/suicidal person if they want to die to save the world. She was not in the state to do it and should never have been in that position. I am super sad he lied to her, but I know he is trying to preserve their relationship and keep the weight of the truth off her shoulders. It's a tough situation man. As a long-time fan of the game this has been the most best ride ever, I am so happy it got turned into a show so the story can be shared with others
I completely agree with you about Ellie! Like everyone's arguing over choice, which yes, it still is hers, but for the state she's in, her choice doesn't have as much validity as it could
@@everybodylovesrae_ Absolutely. Had she been given the choice and said yes, I think Joel would have respected that but he wouldnt have survived it. I just want them to be happy man!! If you want more Joel and Ellie Content, Part 1 of the franchise is being released end of March on the PC. Lots of content in there that didn't make it into the show, I'd love to see you play it
If you want to refresh the entire season, play the game! People would LOVE to see it!
*Uploaded 15 seconds ago*… Immediately me: guys, I’ve got to go.
I'm actually team [SPOILERS] (yes, THAT character) from season 2/game 2, lol.
Hell no!
@@Taubi81 🤷
Considering that [Redacted]'s story is the same as Joel in TLoU 1, Team Breaking the Cycle of Violence and Generational Trauma is where it's at.
Hahaha, me too
We’re on team Joel, AND team Ellie.
If I was in Joel’s shoes? 100%, I’d do whatever it takes to save Ellie. And then afterwards I’d lie to her just the same because she doesn’t deserve the burden of knowing what her survival cost.
If I was in Ellie’s shoes? 100% I’d want to have made the sacrifice to get the vaccine. Admittedly, she’s not (and never could be) in the best mental state to make that decision, but even from a third party it’s understandably the correct decision.
It'd be interesting to see what the Ellie from episode one would've done considering she wasn't a broken person yet
@@everybodylovesrae_ difficult to say. I think even at that point she had some major survivors guilt over Riley but she was more closed off and better at hiding it then because she hadn’t yet connected with Joel or anyone else. But multiply that survivor’s guilt by the entirety of humanity that could be saved and I think we’d all make the sacrifice, given enough time to think about it.
You should try legion. I feel like your cinematic pick ups and how much you learn as it happens. You would Like a show called Legion. It's a marvel show and it's very tense with a lot of things you gotta wrap your mind around.
Have you seen the first season of "Arcane"? Although, "the last of us" was pretty amazing, "Arcane" is still my favourite videogame adaptation.
TEAM JOEL ALL THE WAAAAAY
About the lying tho- idk that he should’ve lied to Ellie but…if he hadn’t she would’ve snapped at him most likely 🥲
But now that he lied I feel like she knows it and well tbh it’s prob gonna come back to bite him in the ass so either way it’s turning to shit 😭
I can't believe it's over already😢. Such an amazing series
This must have taken place about two months after the last episode. There wasn't a speck of snow. So was this new dynamic with chatty Joel and quiet Ellie been going on that whole time, or was she just having an extra quiet day like Joel said? I think Marlene knew full well what she was doing when she sent Joel off with just those two guys. You could almost see it on her face as the three of them walked past her out the door. She was kind of looking for someone to take the guilt away from her. She was definitely letting Joel go and he knew full well he could have left without killing her. Also, he did leave the two nurses alive so, the Fireflies will know what happened. They also know Tommy, so they are bound to look there.
I think it wouldn't have ended up mattering to either Joel or Marlene what Ellie's decision would have been. They both would have ended doing what they thought was best. I believe Ellie would have gone through with it. I don't think
going in she thought it would mean sacrificing herself, I think she, like Joel, just thought they needed her blood. But, as she said to Joel, what would have been the point of everything she had been through? There's no halfway with this. We finish what we started.
He may very well have doomed all of humanity. QZs aren't the answer. We know at least the Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Chicago and KC QZs are all gone. He killed that doctor. How many of them that knew how to do this were there even before the apocalypse? Joel was basically Kathleen at that point.
Ellie was still suffering from the trauma that David had given her and tries to cheer her up, mix that with the anxiety of not knowing what will come after they reach their goal.
Your theory fails as Marleen did not try to escape or anything but confronted Joel to Ellie away.
@@jasminekaram880 Yeah, OK, But she was all non stop chatter and jokes days after getting bitten, watching her best friend and girl she loved turn infected and have to kill her. Watching a woman she trusted get infected and blow herself up to help save her. Watch an 8 year old boy she bonded with and tried to save, turn, attack her and got shot in the head while onto of her by his brother. Then watch his non infected brother put a bullet in his own head just feet away from her.
My theory does not fail as Marlene was putting her gun down and letting Joel leave with Ellie. She still feels that trading Ellie's life to save all of humanity is the right thing to do, UT she also still has tremendous guilt about it.
If you have a playstation or PC, I really recommend playing Part 1 of the game, lots of Joel and Ellie content in there that didn't make it to the show
That clip of the dude with the diagram breaking it down (14:11). 😂 😂
The thing is Mabey Joel did the evil thing
But he did the human thing the father thing the thing any good brother sister mother or father would do for a younger person they have that relationship for
His done bad things killed people innocent people but this choice there’s too sides too the coin
You’re going to be blown away in S2.
Then again, you won’t be…
Can’t wait to see your reaction.
Definitely with Joel. Don't agree with lying to her but everything else - I'd do the same for my kid. Humanity means absolutely nothing to me if it means the death of my child.
PERIOD
I'm even in favor of him lying, it shouldn't be up to Ellie to carry a burden other people invented for her. What he should have done is just editorialize... tell her the Fireflies turned out to be crazed fanatics that couldn't cure shit and were just desperately grasping at straws and tried to cut her brain out
The beauty of the ending is nobody's wrong and nobody's right. On the one hand, a traumatized, bitter, cynical old man made a selfish decision to save someone who isn't even his daughter, probably dooming humanity to an eternity living with Cordyceps, and probably against that girl's wishes, solely because he couldn't bear to lose another child. On the other hand, a young girl was rescued by the person who cared for her more than anyone else in the world, from the clutches of a desperate, reckless medical procedure that would certainly kill her while only possibly accomplishing its objective. Both are true at the same time, and at the same time, neither are true. It's the beauty of the writing. Everyone makes a good point and nobody is 100% in the right. Joel is NOT a good man, Joel has been proven to be a murderer and torturer over and over again, he ultimately made a self-centered decision, but he made the most understandable choice in the position where we would most feel sorry for him.
well said!
VERY well said.
Amazing series and awesome reaction thanks so much Rae! Couldn't agree more what you said about Papa Joel reacting the way he did. Imo he found a reason to live...for Ellie similar to episode 3. You take Ellie away from Joel and well, you see the consequences of it. Complete reversal of "just cargo" into a father figure protecting the one he loves. Beautiful story amazing acting all around🥰10/10 in my mind! Now give us MORE!😋
You are watching a documentary about african animals. If the pov is of the lion, you are happy when it finally catches the gazelle. If the documentary is about the gazelle, you are happy when it flees the lion.
In TLOU, the pov is from the Joel side, so we are prone in condone his actions. I wonder how would we react on another perspective.
😉😉
I don't perceive "teams" here, because I don't think that this particular story is designed to push that kind of binary understanding of human morality.
Joel *did,* and also *didn't* do something wrong, because the story is built for moral ambiguity.
The common thread is that people are complicated, and everyone's actions are based on internally justified narratives. Joel isn't a hero, and he also isn't a villain. He's just human, and you can't pigeon hole human beings into these binary categories.
That's highlighted throughout the season - Henry similarly does a terrible, selfish thing, but he's not a bad person.
The Fireflies are genuinely committed to their optimistic values, but they're also morally flawed in the delivery.
Joel has done many, many terrible things, but he's acting on his desperation, trauma and PTSD. TLoU makes it clear that almost everybody, including those who would be faceless, evil grunts in other stories, is similarly desperate.
I don't think this is a story for "good guys" or "bad guys."
if you are not a parent you wont ever understand the thinking behind joels actions in the hospital as far as joel is concerned ellie is now his child and as a parent myself i can tell you this you will do anything for your child and you will do anything to protect and keep them safe no matter the cost. joel did exactl;y what he needed to do to keep ellie safe.
I don't think you need to be a parent to understand why Joel made the decision.
So let’s discuss the fireflies are incompetent proven throughout both the game and show. The first move is to kill the only remaining chance for a cure and to extract the potential cure and run minimal to no tests on Ellie first. Joel lost his daughter Sarah and sees Ellie has now daughter he’s not going to lose another daughter he’ll do anything to keep her safe and protect her even if that means he has to lie and she resents him he doesn’t care all that matters is her safety which is exactly how a parent thinks. The fireflies didn’t even hold up there end of the deal with Joel and now you want me to trust them to not only create a cure but now distribute it to the world when they can barely function as an organization and can’t hold up a simple deal so not only untrustworthy but stupid. There’s little to no argument for the firefly side I will always side with Joel.
This episode is essentially exactly the game... this is what we played... and it sets up the second game story (So the second season) Ellie knows he is lying... but she let it be. I just wished he had killed the nurses as well... love the reactions... absolute best game story line ever... this is the main reason why everybody loved the game so much.
He def shouldnt have lied….only gonna cause resentment when she inevitably finds out.
He had to lie to her, she would've wanted to go back, and he knows he can't survive losing another daughter, especially based on the chance it would actually work. Sometimes we lie to protect our children.
@@catenystrom6506 if she knew the truth, she would know that going back doesnt do anything now....everyone there is dead.
You kill a child to "save humanity"... I gotta ask, what is the humanity you're trying to save?
Thousands or millions of others innocents children maybe?
From Joel point of view is ok. And i mean from any parents point of view.. But it's pointless find other meaning about that.. That's all.. Joel didn't think about the success probability of vaccine. He would have done anyway ... (And you know it.. Cit Marlene 😉😉😉)
@@vash7514 Why would I trust the fireflies to make the vaccine? They weren`t even close to save humanity, they were just playing pretend
"Star Wars Andor" is equally as well made
Let's not forget Joel was talking about stopping and turning back for Jackson even before they reached the hospital.
And let's not forget, Ellie said after everything she's been through, what would be the point. Also that there is no halfway with this, we finish what we started.
@@frozenharold let's not forget Marlene never asked Ellie for her consent.
@@kuranhelix278 Let's not forget she told Ellie she had a greater purpose than anyone could have ever imagined, and that that purpose was to save all of humanity. She could have turned that down at any point during the last 6 months she was going through hell crossing the country during an apocalypse to ensure she got to fulfill that purpose. Let's also not forget Joel didn't ask either. And she had specifically told him earlier that very same day that what her wishes were. So, he lied to her because he knew she would have consented, that she wouldn't be happy with his selfish decision and really not happy that he killed 15 innocent people, Marlene in particular, and possibly doomed all of humanity in her name.
@frozenharold I think you'll missed the point of my first post. I'm referring to the fact Joel was starting to having doubts even before he knew Ellies life was in danger.
@@MrVexedviper @MrVexedviper He actually believed in it more than ever. From the very beginning he said it wouldn't work an that they had heard this a thousand times before. Then, when Ellie was having doubts after Sam, when they were sitting around the fire, she asked him if he thought it would work. He said it was a little late to be thinking that now. Then he said to her that Marlene may be a lot of things, but she's no fool. if she says it will work, it will work. Then at Tommy's, he's ready to give her to Tommy to continue the journey to get her there. He wasn't doubting it would work, he just wanted her to have to keep going where it turns out there is always something bad out there. For the record, the shows creator said it would have worked.
Wow what an episode!! it went by so fast; it felt shorter than 20 minutes, but still an awesome Season Finale.
The hospital's sequence was as intense as in the game.
btw I loved your reactions to this show.
Subscribed at first second of episode 1 🥰
I really like your channel taking reactions to new different levels nice..
The story of Joel and Ellie is a great one, but it is just that. One story. There would be countless others, with sadder tales of loss and more horrific actions taken to protect those they care about. No one more justified than another. I will say though, in my own opinion, if you're not working towards a cure, then what's the point of any of it? It's the difference between just continuing to struggle to survive or potentially giving hope to future generations the chance to actually live. Taking that chance away condemns those left to just exist as the last of us. Others will feel different and that's ok with me, it's what makes us unique.
To live is enough
@@brunokingz for some
I am sure many will disagree but the way I see it, Joel HAD to lie to Ellie. He felt he had to protect Ellie because if he would have told her the truth then one of 2 things were bound to happen. Either she accepted the lie and forgave Joel making her live with the guilt of withholding the cure to mankind in exchange for her life, or just the opposite, not forgiving Joel for what he did, breaking off their father, daughter relationship, and possibly losing another daughter as Ellie would try to return to Salt Lake City and sacrifice her life for the mere chance that the cure might be successful. Joel couldn't allow that to happen. In his mind he was protecting her from taking that chance. From again losing the one person that meant so much to him. Yes, Joel ultimately sacrificed himself for the sinns he committed, but at least he and Ellie got a chance to live those 4 to 5 years together in relative piece and enjoy a little happiness together. As a father that has lost my first child... I would have done the same!
Blatant spoilers in this comment
@@StinkyBuster it was only conjecture
@@scottls lmao...so you're guessing that they will have 4 to 5 years of relative piece. Got it.
@@StinkyBuster for anyone that has NOT watched the game walkthroughs, yes, this is only conjecture.
@scottls if you want to make it seem like you're guessing you should write it in the correct tense.
What an odd defence to writing spoilers.
The technique that that doctor is suggesting is only a theroy. Wouldn't you want to perform some kind of testing before performing such a drastic procedure? What if they went through with it and it didn't work? It is like killing the golden goose.
They did run several tests. Marlene mentions tests, and in the game you can see the results of blood tests and imaging from a brain scan.
@@V.elociraptor But not from Ellie... this is hypothesis, from basically amateurs
@Bruno Reis Yes, from Ellie. This is a direct quote from the game (as found on a surgeon's recorder) -
"As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients."
So right there, you have evidence of *both blood tests and a brain scan.* The Fireflies' primary doctor has been studying Cordyceps for 20 years and has studied many other specimens. He's also been a continually successful doctor throughout that time - practising during an apocalypse is akin to being a war doctor.
13:08
That’s why it’s weird that they removed some game dialogue. Joel pushes back harder, the missing lines are “Then why are you letting this happen?” so that Marlene can tout the greater good of the world, and “Keep telling yourself that bullshit” to illustrate how unimpressed he is with her spiel and convincing her to have him removed.
Druckman has being retconning his own story since the release of part 2. Idon't know exactly why he is trying to remove the gray areas around both factions, but he is.
@@jamie_d0g978 What exactly was retconned in the second game?
@@thelazygamer1639 Dialogue, some characters evolution and personalities, the whole vibe in the lab of the fireflies (it's cleaner and look more professional) and probably other stuff that I don't remember now
Haven't watched your reaction yet but alone for your caption here I will start watching your TLOU reactions!!!! Because he yeah TEAM JOEL FOREVER
16:15 All Marlene had to do was shoot him. Instead she elects to talk to him. She was just full of mistakes. I don't think there was one correct answer, by the way. Both sides had perfectly valid ethical arguments, same as when the lady in Episode 2 recommended bombing and murdering all 9 million residents of Jakarta (including how many 'Ellies'? Was anyone getting their 'consent'?). If the answer was easy and everyone agreed, this game would have been forgotten within 6 months of its release. It's the ethically ambiguity ending that makes it a great experience that has been a subject of debate for 10 years.
Ah someone in this comments section with functioning moral compass and a functioning brain. Kudos to you Sir or Madam
Both teams monumentally messed up. Marlene was very harsh. She should have given Ellie agency and allowed Joel to see her. Joel, on the other hand, went absolutely insane and didn't even try to minimize casualties. Marlene even gave him a second chance. He could have stopped and let Ellie decide after she woke up, but chose to kill Marlene and lie to Ellie. On one hand you have a leader trying to work through a messy situation. On the other, a father who is trying to work through a messy situation.
Logistics nonsense is missing the point. This isn't your story of cool good guy killing bad bad guys. That would be the most boring ending ever. Joel never questioned the cure. Even if greatest scientists in the world gave him 8 hour lecture on the cure working, he would have done the same thing if every other condition remained the same.
Just a warning forget about the show now. Even a cursory look into the second game will spoil it for you. (I know, I tried to stay away from spoilers for the second game, and still came across a spoiler) This show has been amazing, but you have to give credit to Naughty Dog The game developers for creating such an amazing story and creating the solid foundations this show has been built on.
Anyway it has been great watching this with you. It is going to feel like a long wait for season two.
I really loved this reaction. And YES, Pedro is SO freaking gorgeous it's ridiculous. I'm with Joel. He cannot lose another daughter, not for a chance for a cure, he would't survive it. Also, Ellie would say yes to sacrificing herself, because she's traumatized, and she's a CHILD, so I don't think she's in the mindset to make that decision, and Joel is her father.
I expected him that he lies bc he wants to protect her no matter what.
as soon as I heard the words the doctor 'Thinks', I was like nope, they're experimenting I'm absolutely on team Joel. They never even told Ellie what was up
The way they bypassed everything to get to 'death' like can we have a second to feel things out first??
Of course they're experimenting. How else were they gonna do it
@@chrishaven1489Killing in a whim the only inmune person in 20 years without further testing it's clearly the best approach to the situation lmfao.
20:30 “I need more “ 😂 at least you know there’s a season 2 . Us gamers waited years just for an announcement. Glad you enjoyed
Seasons 2 and 3, they said they're splitting the second game into two seasons.
Most of my friends are team "Joel should've sacrificed Ellie to save the world" and I disagree
I can't wrap my head around people who think it's a sure bet this cure would even work under such conditions. It could be the opposite, that killing Ellie would actually destroy the chance to study her much more intensively than they did. It's batsh_t crazy that they would take a few blood tests and then dig into her brain as soon as they got their hands on her. It's literally like the Nazis killing Jews and other people by doing experiments for possible medicines or surgeries. I know it's supposed to be a philosophical dilemma and they try to present it that way in the plot, but if I'm a father, I'm not taking anyone's word for it that this would actually work. Also since Joel is alone against many, he has to be ruthless to survive and rescue Ellie. So both rationally for several reasons and emotionally, I'm on team "Joel save Ellie and take no prisoners."
I just don't understand how people, knowing Joel, would ever think him sacrificing Ellie would even be an option for him ?
@@everybodylovesrae_ I think its the hangover from the pandemic. The whole do it for the greater good thing. But nah, with all that emotion put into the season, fk the world 🤣🤣
@@everybodylovesrae_ Here's my take - If anyone to be blamed here by Ellie later in the show is Marlene.. If that doesn't happen whatever showrunners present is a simply a stupidity. Here's why -Ellie was looking forward to go anywhere with Joel & live happily. She is clearly under impression that she doesn't have to die for this. Would she decide to sacrifice herself after knowing? Maybe yes. But Marlene didn't allow it to happen. Had Marlene given Ellie a chance to decide, allowed her & Joel to process what's gonna happen & given them time to say Goodbye, it could be avoided.
I would blame Joel 'only if' he kills everyone even after knowing Ellie's willing to die. Not before that. Joel's actions are a direct result of Marlene's decision to hurry everything without giving Ellie a choice. They waited for 20 years, what's another few months! Joel gave Ellie a choice twice & respected her decisions both the times. ep.6 & ep.9 The only thing I don't like on Joel's part is that he lied to her. IMO he should have been upfront about why he did it. Ellie might have disagreed with his actions but she definitely would have understood his motives (selfless/selfish love for his daughter) better. But he was afraid of losing the relationship.
I would be curious to know what Ellie would react when/if she finds out what happened. Will she be angry at Joel - for killing those people or only for lying to her?
To sum up - If Marlene is not in super hurry & give some time to Ellie to respond, only then Joel gets to know what Ellie wants.. If Ellie says Yes & even then Joel kills everyone then & only then he is to be blamed.. If Marlene doesn't give that chance to Elli, then we don't actually know what Ellie might have said 'before' the surgery (Whatever she may say afterwards is her afterthought considering whatever happened). So before the surgery whatever Joel does is a direct consequence of Marlene's actions & only she is to be blamed! As a parent I would do the exact same thing as Joel did. I will take a blame only If I did those killings even after knowing my child's wish to sacrifice themselves. All the best to HBO. If they ignore this simple fact in next season then they will have very angry reactions from parents. Protecting the children from the 'predator' is a primal animal instinct.
@@abhijeetashtikar I agree with this sooo much!!!
The only world worth saving is one where individuals have the ability to choose their own destiny, even one of self-sacrifice. And that's a choice that was never given to Ellie. In that sense nobody made the right decision. The Fireflies had far more control to do the right thing than Joel, though. They backed him into a wall.
If you liked this show, try Station Eleven. It would amaced you how deep it navigates about the human condition and has a similar environment like this one.
You can't blame Marlene for what she did, and you can't blame Joel...neither one was in the wrong except the fact that neither one of them gave Ellie a choice...Marlene knew Joel cared for Ellie and that's why she didn't shoot him, she actually lowered her gun and tried talking to him about it...Joel was in the wrong for killing Marlene though...he really didn't need to do that...there is no good or bad here, just complicated decisions.
In the game there is a recording that makes Marlene more understandable
_Hey Anna... It's been awhile since we spoke. I uh... I just gave the go ahead to proceed with the surgery. _*_I really doubt I had much of a choice, asking me was more of a formality._*_ I need you to know that I've kept my promise all these years... despite everything that I was in charge of, I looked after her. I would've done anything for her, and at times..._
_Here's a chance to save us... all of us. This is what we were after... what you were after. They asked me to kill the smuggler. _*_I'm not about to kill the one man in this facility that might understand the weight of this choice. Maybe he can forgive me._*_ Oh, I miss you, Anna. Your daughter will be with you soon._
She didn't really have a choice AND she was looking for forgiveness FROM Joel.
a movie suggestion would be "Annihilation", is one of, if not the best psychological horror movie i've ever watched, the score in this movie is insane, the visuals, everything is near perfection, you should definitely give a try.
Also #TeamJoel lol
Happy for seson 2? XD
it's pointless to tell her, he had to kill them all even to be able to ask her in the 1st place and even if she wanted to now could take years to find anyone else able to do anything about it and probably die while looking.
I'm also going to rewatch it
I see a lot of people saying Ellie would’ve definitely sacrificed herself. But we can’t be sure of that. Marlene seemed to think that Ellie wouldn’t sacrifice herself. If she believed she would, marlene would’ve told Ellie what was gonna happen instead of not telling her a thing. I mean, you’d think there would be someone around to be the voice of reason. Ellie’s safe…. You have some time to think about what to do next. What if it doesn’t work? Then Ellie’s dead and you’re back to no hope. Maybe we don’t need to remove her brain. Maybe there are other options. No need to put her under the knife immediately.
No spoilers, but Part 2 outlines Ellies thoughts on the situation.
There's no "definitely," but based on the things she says before and after, I think she *probably* would have sacrificed herself.
@@MrVexedviper what does she say again??
SPOILERS FOR PART II
Didn't she just say she wanted to have a choice. Like actually make the decision for herself?
She would have DEFINITELY, we CAN be sure of that. Even JOEL knew it, or he wouldn't have lied. His CERTAINTY is the REASON he LIED.
And Marlene knew she was willing too
Marlene ALSO knew that if she had told the doctor to wake her up after all those tests so she could get confirmation, she would have had a mutiny on her hands.
@Kuran Helix She says that "she should have died on the operating table," implying that she would have chosen to sacrifice herself.
Oh boy.. just wait until season 2 and 3..
the way y'all have infinitely raised my anxiety levels after saying stuff like this lmao
@@everybodylovesrae_ (No spoilers in this comment) Part 2 is more difficult and sad, but less scary and tense. It deals with emotions and choices that are difficult for real people to confront here in real life, even in therapy, so a lot of people have some very intense emotional reactions to the story. Because it's very difficult stuff that it deals with. But it is a beautiful story, just like this was a beautiful story.
Ellie asking "what drugs?" just says it all - she knew NOTHING. It's not just that she didn't know she wouldn't survive a surgery, she didn't even know she was being given drugs to put her under, or that there was even any kind of surgery that would require her to BE put under, even temporarily. And yeah, that is just disgusting and wrong in every single way. And that is why I am DEFINITELY team Joel on this.
Not saying there was no way I could have been Team Fireflies, because they absolutely could have gone about this in a way that would have had me solidly on their side. Creating a cure IS important, not to mention that it would be world changing, and their desperation for one is as easy to understand and sympathize with as anything can be. But yeah... their way of doing this was disgusting and wrong in every way, and there are simply no excuses or justifications that could make me view them as being in the right here.
Yeah I feel like the Fireflies were fanatically idealistic about saving humanity. If after 20 years you finally get someone immune that you can try to figure out a cure with you shouldn't jump straight to removing their brain. Like how about some blood tests and some other tests? They went right to killing her to get into her brain and they didn't even tell her what they were going to do. Fanaticism even if it was on the "side" of humanity.
YES
your video editing is on point, i really enjoyed the video, it was fun.
I'm kinda on neither team. Neither one actually cared about Ellie. Fireflies just wanted a cure and Joel just didn't want to lose someone else. Neither side actually cared about what Ellie wants. yes, Joel "saved" her which many people would have done, but let's not act like he wasn't doing it for himself. It was a very selfish act.
Bookshelf cat! Bookish cats on the Internet unite. 😻🐾
A lot of people are commenting about uncertainty and consent and logistics, but it’s kind of missing the point. Joel believes the surgery would have succeeded and the Fireflies would save humanity, he knows that Ellie would have chosen to sacrifice herself, he probably even recognizes that she doesn’t believe his lies. But Ellie has now filled the hole left from Sarah and Joel doesn’t care what she wanted. The point is that Joel didn’t choose Ellie over the slim hopes of a questionable group, he chose his replacement daughter over any hope for humanity’s future. Not accepting this will make Season 2 just as poorly received as the second game was. Personally, I like thinking Joel saved Ellie so she wouldn’t die for potentially no reason, and that he lied to shield her from the burden of his actions, but that is not canon. Given that was their intent, they admittedly could have conveyed it better.
Exactly, if the cure doesn't work, then there is no moral dillema lol. People are just making the story less interesting for themselves because we love Joel so much. Like, wtf is the point of ending if cure is fake? Just shooting more bad people? They really need to start teaching media literacy in schools.
Joel believes that the fireflies would have make it? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHSHAHAHAHSHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHSHAHAHA
@@jamie_d0g978 I take it you don’t believe that, which is weird since he says as much in both the game and show. I didn’t think they could and I’d bet you didn’t either, but that is not a factor for Joel.
@@jamie_d0g978 he says he does in both the game and the show. Your laughter only shows you paid no attention.
you are right! i'm one of the people who thinks the cure just isn't possible but to say joel was thinking about any of that while shooting up a hospital would be an insult to his character. you could sit that man down in an 12 hour lecture and explain the cure and he would NOT give a fuck because it means ellie has to die for it so immediately it's not an option and that's okay!!!! he's not here to play the hero
Team Joel
I'm quite interested in how people who are more supportive of Joel are going to handle the rest of this show
I feel like Anna found out exactly why you shouldn't find a midwife on Wish.
Would look forward to The Bear!
Absolutely and those "doctors" didn't know what they were doing. Killing the one person who has immunity is just stupid not to mention completely unethical.
Stop using real world logic on a fictional show that is dealing with an exaggerated fungus infection. Cordyceps can potentially evolve to spread to humans, but it can never become sophisticated enough to control them. It's an over the top premise.
Think about it thematically - if the cure doesn't work, what's the point of the ending? Joel just killing evil people and the end? Don't you think that's a pretty redundant and pathetic ending?
And what's even worse. They know how she get infected and why she's inmune in the show. They can replicate the immunity, it's just retarded as f
@Buzz Fuzz Then I guess it’s a flaw in the writing. Ignoring the fact that they would have never been able to produce and distribute a cure, it has been shown several times that they are too incompetent to even succeed at their main goal. No one who’s been paying attention should believe they were capable of doing anything.
Yeah…..talk about a morally ambiguous ending.
On one hand, I get it. Humanity took away what mattered most to Joel and after finding something that close in Ellie again, he wasn't going to let it happen again. I don't know what it's like to be a father but I would like that someday and having to put myself in Joel's shoes, I'd probably do the same? Not to mention, the Fireflies weren’t giving her much of a choice in the matter; the fake sense of urgency they have in “We have to do it now” without giving either Joel or Ellie a chance to say goodbye just frustrates me to no end.
But then again, Joel wasn’t any better. It was still a…..selflessly selfish choice that not only doomed the entire world worse than it already was but also robbed Ellie of whatever hope she had left for it as well as the choice to choose also. It might be refreshing to see them finally be together in this "new beginning" but keep this in mind: it's based on a lie.
All of it.
Team Joel :D
1:37 You should watch Arcane. Another 9 episodes masterpiece
This! I believe Arcane is the only "show" that can stand side by side with TLoU season 1 and not blush.
Oooo I'll look into it👀
"mankind deserves to be saved", *insert Thor meme* "Does it though?"
☠
Ellies mom is played by the voice actor for Ellie in the game!!
There is no "good" choice, there is no team.
Joel, fireflies, even raiders, they are all the same...
We watch this "world" throught the eye ofJoel, he's the "hero" of this story but... if you were a firefly?
Don't you think Fireflies have children they want to protect from this world? Even if it means the sacrifice of a girl they don't even know the name...
According to me, If joel were a firefly and Sarah alive, he probably be the first man to put a knife in the hand of the doctor.
Ellie: Did you kill innocent people?
Joel: No answer
Ellie: Is Marlene ok?
Joel: No answer
Ellie is smart enough to figure out that if they stopped looking for a cure why did they drug her to run tests? She knows Joel is lying I think that's why she turns away from him in the car.
Maria: The only ones that can betray us are the ones we trust.
I wonder if season 2 will start with the line, "What is the cost of lies?". Find it kinda funny Chernobyl starts with that line and TLOU ends with a lie.
This quite simply is a supervillain origin story
Well, things are black or white and one thing I can tell you, this show will remind you again and again that there are many shades of grey. Joel's motivation here was purely selfish and basically became once again a murderer in the process. Marlene became blind to consequences in the pursuit of the cure at any cost. And saying the decision should be up to Ellie is also wrong, since at this point she's a traumatized 14 year old, which pretty much would disqualify her from making a pondered and rational decision. There's no real right and wrong here, just different perspectives all with their own reasons and flaws. Would I do what Joel did if I was in his shoes? Almost certainly yes. Do I think that's a good thing? Not really, but hey, that's part of human nature.
Anyway, get ready, because the upcoming seasons, which will cover the second game, are going to be a lot darker than this one! If this season broke your heart several times, the next ones will completely crush your soul again and again. The Last of Us universe is absolutely ruthless and unforgiving. But all of that comes with an absolute masterful storytelling.
It's a touch older but you'd really enjoy Person of Interest I think