Imagine being able to get the train from Harrow & Wealdstone to Beckton! But not Elephant & Castle. Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/jagohazzard Patreon: / jagohazzard
If they wanted a line that went from Waterloo, through London Bridge and Canary Wharf and up to Stratford I think they pretty much got what they wanted.
@@Ro99 By the 1990s the Stanmore branch had become the Jubilee (1977). But yes, basically the Jubilee extension seems to deliver all the benefits that the Bakerloo would have given, plus serving Westminster and not reducing service to Elephant or missing London Bridge.
southeast desperately needs the thameslink 2 idea, and the southeastern lines should be taken over by tfl imo, aat the very least we would get 12tph instead of 2 if we are lucky lewisham to canary wharf to stratford would be a life changer
Considering the Jubilee was itself a spinoff from the Bakerloo, this extension arguably happened very much as-is (Waterloo - London Bridge - Canary Wharf - Stratford)
Let it not be forgotten that the northern part of the Jubilee Line was originally part of the Bakerloo, so in a real sense a Bakerloo extension to Docklands and Stratford did in fact materialise.
Ted, I'll go with Jago, Hull History Nerd, Paul and Rebecca Whitewick, Auto Shenanigans and Lord Muck. So thats rail, Hull, canals, roads and machinery all covered. If you need a bit of humour try Ozzy Man Reviews (includes industrial type language, but funny). Cup of tea and feet up time!
Imagine all the ink expended on drawing up these extensions, at least it would keep cartographers happy fitting them all on on the map. Jago has alluded to this previously.
This is a lovely video - I really enjoyed this video about the proposal. I think about what could have been, and it's fun exploring the numerous possibilities of lines! Your narration has always fascinated me; it's super engaging. Thanks for your videos, Jago!
The fleet line is what's known as the Jubilee line and it was due to extend from Charing Cross to Lewisham but it never happened due to the lack of cash. So the line was extended from Green Park to Stratford via Canary Wharf. As for the Bakerloo line, it'll be going from Elephant & Castle to Lewisham and Hayes.
Wow. "G. Ware Travelstead" is the perfect name for the developer of Canary Wharf, in that it's plainly the name of the villain from an episode of _Scooby-Doo, Where Are You?_ Fred pulls the mask off the barrow wight that's been terrorizing the poor but honest townsfolk who didn't want to sell out to the skyscraper magnate and--"But it's Mr. Travelstead!" "And I'd have gotten away with it, too, if not for you meddling kids!"
Since you pointed, in a previous video, that the expansion of the area around Canada Water will require something more than the jubilee and Overground, then, probably a line elephant and castle, bricklayers, Canada water, Canary wharf will make sense
The problem of sharing LU & BR is that AC traction requires DC signalling and DC traction requires AC signalling that's mains frequency blocked and for safety reasons cannot be mixed.
The Bakerloo Line extension to the Docklands could of happened and to extend to Canary Wharf, Beckton and Barking Riverside or Thamesmead. But I still think that the Bakerloo Line extension to Lewisham, Bromley and Hayes is the preferred route which will still happen. Plus with 2 new Bakerloo Line stations to be added along the A20 Old Kent Road.
Given the truly parlous state of TfL finances, with Khan having to go to Westminster regularly demanding £billions of additional funding just to keep what there us going, I wouldn’t hold your breath for it to happen I’m afraid.
@@borassictime918 As far as I know, there's a team at TfL working on E&C to Lewisham. Likewise the West London Orbital, from Hendon and West Hampstead to Hounslow, via Old Oak Common. TfL is committed to both schemes and some work can be done without massive funding,
Why do I get the feeling that "G. Ware Travelstead" is the pseudonym of some American? Because "everybody will just drive there, regardless of the existing infrastructure" is the typically American way of thinking about development. Full disclosure: I am an American.
Interesting that what we got was at the heart of their Bakerloo extension proposal, a railway from Waterloo to Stratford via London Bridge and Canary Wharf.
It makes you wonder what goes through the heads of these developers, well other than pound signs. By the time they came to look at the redevelopment of the Docklands it was, hand had been for countless years, well established that public transport, or a well though out public transport network, drives demand for housing or commercial space. So, for the likes of O&Y et al expecting central government to provide such infrastructure is a little rich not to mention risky as objectives may well not align.
IDK how often it occurs in the UK, but in the US we bribe corporations to build. The State of Tennessee is spending a billion dollars on a new Ford plant near Memphis. Yup. Billion with a B. (Aside from all the other reasons why or legislature sucks. #I Stand with the Tennessee Three.)
@@HarryLovesRuth I guess that has a pleasing circularity given the history of UERL and the mustacheoed scoundrel Charles Tyson Yerkes bringing questionable business practices to the fine folk of London!
@@HarryLovesRuth In the UK it is often the other way round, particularly in local government. In my area, a national supermarket chain was allowed to build a new store on a new business park. They offered to build new link roads to the town centre and the motorway and all the objections from the planning committee vanished away like the dew in the morn. Bribing councils like this is known as 'planning gain'.
Looking at a map of the area, it looks like the mooted route from Waterloo to Canary Wharf via Bricklayer's Arms could've very much been an extension of the line from Elephant & Castle.
In a funny way it did get to Canary Wharf. The Stanmore branch was originally the Bakerloo line.. when they built the Jubilee line how did they decide which Bakerloo branch to change?
Great video as always :) Would you consider making a video about London cross river tram project? Or plans to return trams to central London in general?
The Bakerloo's section from Waterloo to Elephant & Castle could have been moved to the Waterloo & City line. Both lines definitely need more extension proposals.
One thing is certain, the Piccadilly line needs a huge upgrade. For I came to London from Malta last week, I took the Piccadilly line from Heathrow to King's cross, half way there we had to get off the train and use another line. Then on the way back to Heathrow airport, the train kept stopping due to issues along the line, doors not opening, the driver was constantly apologizing 😅😅😅. My next visit to London will be in June, this time I will be staying near Paddington station, so I will be using the Elizabeth line, I am looking forward to it because at least it's a new line .Hopefully smooth traveling 😂😂😂. I lived in Hokkaido Japan for 15 years, it certainly is a country that knows how to provide the best transportation service in the world, that is extremely reliable, punctual and at an affordable price. But I will admit, the London underground does have a fantastic vibe , which is lacking in Japan 😂. Hopefully there will be no strikes in June, fingers crossed 🤞.
Actually, the section of Elizabeth Line from Paddington to Hayes & Harlington (where the Heathrow branch peels off from the main line) is one of the oldest in the country, opened in 1838. (Albeit the trains are only about six years old) New trains for the Piccadilly Line are already under construction, although it willbew a year or so before they are in service
A lot more might have beens. It also highlights the lack of vision in so many developments that we seem to be playing catch-up a lot of the time, (just look at the road network in East London).
Thanks Jago. It seems like anyone can draw a line on a map that suits their project and not care a fig about those elsewhere. ( I wonder what happened to my suggestion on investigating how a three rail Overgound train can run on four rails (in and out of Richmond for example)).
"how a three rail Overgound train can run on four rails" The same way they already do on the shared section of the Watford DC lines between Queen's Park and Harrow, I'd assume.
Ah, the Bakerloo line, always there with its portmanteau name but nothing much seems to happen. It’s always felt like a bit of a quiet backwater to me (surprisingly as it goes through central London) but it’s one of my favourite lines…
Hi Jago from Spain. Since the Jubilee already has a chunk of the old Bakerloo from Stanmore, it would seem appropriate to extend the Jubilee and call it the Bakerloo.
I wonder if consideration was given to extending The Drain from Bank, which would have given a direct link to Waterloo, perhaps with a new station connection at Blackfriars? 🤔. Would gave been interesting.
Extending the Drain at either end would be difficult, because it is hemmed in by other lines at bank and poiunts the wrong way (SE) at Waterloo. It would also need longer platforms if it were to carry more passengers than it already does (and a station at Blackfriars woukld be pointless because the trains are always rammed in the rush hour so no-one would be able to board at an intermediate station) . Resolve those problems and you have more or less built a new line anyway.
I'd quite like the Bakerloo extension to incorporate the Abbey Wood branch of the Elizabeth Line. It'd make the Elizabeth Line simpler to navigate. But likely less useful too!
Canary Wharf was designed by a Canadian developer who applied North American philosophy to transport forgetting that the amount of land for multi storey car parks and multi lane highways weren't there!! They'd obviously never seen the mistake made in Post War Birmingham, Coventry and Plymouth where the focus on the car ended up with the saying Destroyed by the Luftwaffe, Wrecked by the planners! I remember how poor the original DLR stock was with inwards swinging doors and two cars. They were pretty full of Isle of Dogs residents BEFORE all the new development arrived!
They considered an extension to Charlton and Barnhurst at one point, it would have replaced mainline services on both the Greenwich and Bexleyheath lines and leaving only the Woolwich and Sidcup lines with BR, all Woolwich line trains would have permanently been routed via Lewisham
"Ah ha". Interesting. I wonder if theres mileage in taking a Jubilee branch from North Grennwich to Beckton today ...perhaps connecting at London City Airport? Although Abbey Wood and its new developments might generate more traffic. How many schemes might we see ressurected to connect outer reaches to the network. Keep up the good work, Sherlock...er...Jago.
Some of the southward Bakerloo extension ideas including the Dartford scheme, look like they could have aided efforts to split the Northern Line into two separate lines (what with its own Peckham Rye & Streatham proposals) or had the station been designed differently at Holborn even been used to provide more extension options for a realised Piccadilly Line route from Aldwych to Waterloo. As for other north/west Bakerloo extension ideas, the 1908 rejected route to Cricklewood and a proposed 1988 takeover of the Central's Ealing Broadway branch from Queens Park were missed opportunities IMHO.
@@JagoHazzard Pages Walk just by the foot of the east side of the flyover. The used to be a T-34 Tank (painted various colours including pink during the time it was there) in the same location for many years
In the context of Elephant & Castle and the potential closing of the spur had this scheme gone ahead, I think this unlikely at that time. The DHSS had it's principal offices located in Hannibal House, right next to underground station. Given the sheer volume of civil servants employed at the location, there would have been a good deal of traffic to the station and a political motivation to keep it open. That is all pretty academic as the department was relocated to Leeds and Elephant and Castle remains the Bakerloo's terminus.
I don't quite understand why the scheme envisaged extending the Bakerloo line. The logic given is to connect Canary Wharf development to Waterloo makes perfect sense but further up the Bakerloo line I don't see any real traffic pull - at least not enough to make an interchange at Waterloo unacceptable. The Jubilee extension of course does this connection on the Jubilee line culling the Fleet extension but I can't quite help but think that a rather simple few station Waterloo to Stratford via London Bridge and Canary Wharf line will be necessary in the not too distant future, especially if a people mover system is installed connecting London Bridge to the City (the Bank complex)
Developers don't think about "up the line," just what suits them! Those two crazy new stumps of Bakerloo Line would have made it more difficult to operate and doubtless reduced service to the poorer Walworth/Camberwell areas so they can get suits into Docklands.
@@mattsawyer343 I am taking developer stupidity into account here. My point is that they appear to have been assuming use from Waterloo - looking at Bakerloo line apart from maybe Paddington it would just be inviting signalling challenges for the line. The Jubilee on the other hand gets you Bond Street and Westminster which I think adds to what the appeal to Canary Wharf footage wants.
Hey Jago, a question i've always pondered and you might know an answer to... possibly another "Explain the name" Episode? Elephant & Castle, weird name, anyhow this is also on the coat of arms of Dumbarton, Scotland. I've tried to find a link between the two, alas dug up no leads. Wonder if you've any ideas?
Not that I'm a history buff as was forced to drop it before O level, but my memory is that the Elephant & Castle is a corruption of a former Queen of England, who, before marriage, was known as The Infanta of Castille.
This was Interesting Bakerloo Line Tottenham Hale Stratford and Beckton. Been saying for while Beckton Needs Proper Transport link DLR. not enough. London Overground can be Extended Barking to Beckton
Promises, promises, I bet they'll never get round to ever extending the Bakerloo line, besides south London is now full of bus routes and other railway lines. 😁 The top part of the Jubilee line was originally a Bakerloo branch and of course runs parallel to the Metropolitan from Wembley Park to Baker Street and the one of the suburban lines from Marylebone also parallels, part of the Metropolitan line. It's really that thing that as usual, because of the piecemeal development of rail lines in London, things interconnect maybe too much. Besides if they had built one of those extensions, Elephant and Castle could have ended up as an emergency station platforms, like the original station platforms of Charing Cross on the Jubilee Line. You may be being elephantine, but have you also considered that it could all be castillian, because Elephant and Castle is a corruption of the Enfante of Castille. 😁
Only surprised that Lewisham did not figure in these plans. That cramped, awkward site seems to have become a dream hub for every rail scheme in SE London, as if denizens of those parts were jealous of Clapham Junction. At least Lewisham is a real place, unlike O-- O-- C----n.
Wondering if Canary Wharf faces a more difficult future. HSBC were reported to be looking to leave (Sunday Times). Crédit Suisse have been acquired by UBS (Their lease for 1 Cabot Square runs to 2034). A law firm moves back to the City in 2027. Deutsche Bank reduced their occupancy in 2021. The European Medicines Agency relocated in 2019.
One of the consequences of leaving the EU has been a real/perceived reduction in the importance of London as a a financial centre. I suspect that a certain amount of 'consolidation' is taking place.
I'm not quite sure why, but I was never really a fan of the DLR. It seemed slow, which _may_ be due to its driverless nature, and somewhat unstable, like (but not as extent as) being in the back of a bendy bus, or the 109 tram from Melbourne CBD to Box Hill.
I'm on the route of the number 96 tram and people who have to use the number 109 have my sympathy. Although I have to say that it would be strange to live in a city that doesn't have dozens of trams lines heading in all directions, although I guess the London Tube would be almost as useful.
The tube alone is about a thousand times better than Melbourne's whole network. Multiple ways to get to your destination, and trains so regular they don't even have a timetable as such. Compared that to Melbourne's obligatory 20 minute wait, slow service, next to no lines that aren't just going into the city, and paying for zones you don't even use. I know which I would rather.
Here's a question completely unrelated to this Tale from the Tube. In all your videos (and others about trains in the UK), the trains are all fairly clean and free of graffiti. Most American trains attract spray paint the way flying saucers are attracted to tabloid photographers.
I stayed in a hotel in Bricklayers Arms last week, and the area is a real blackspot for rail and tube service. Thank goodness for the number 1 bus at least.
Bollocks. It's ten minutes' walk to the Elephant or the Borough. A lot of South London is not served by the Tube (hence the Old Kent Road extensions proposed but the Bricklayer's Arms has a lot of bus connections and is within walking distance of at least two stations on major lines.
@@colmx8441 I did the walk to both Elephant and Borough, and in the future I'd take the 1 instead any day. It's too far for somewhere so close to the "city of". Compare Bricklayers Arms and Old Kent Road even to the rest of South London and the station density is way down.
It seems odd that when the Jubilee line was extended in the late 1990s the entire fleet of 1983 trains (only 15 years old at the time) was replaced by the current 1996 trains Yet the 50 year old 1972 trains are still running on the Bakerloo line with no prospect of replacements in the foreseeable future Maybe they should have extended the Bakerloo line instead of the Jubilee line
The 1983 stock were never a huge success. The single leaf doors were a mistake - too slow and too small for 1990s conditions. When tghe line was extended a larger fleet was needed and it was decided that having a single type was preferable to mixing stocks. As there were not enough to re-stock any other line they had to go except the Bakerloo, and their longer carriage lengths made them unsuitable for that line as there are some curves where they wouldn't fit. Interesting though that the small windows of both the Jubilee's 1996 stock and the Northern's 1995 stock (which have similar bodies but different electric bits) are a legacy of an earlier plan to rebuild the 1983 stock to be compatible with 1996 stock. It never happened as it was cheaper to build more new trains than convert the old ones.
Развлечения
If they wanted a line that went from Waterloo, through London Bridge and Canary Wharf and up to Stratford I think they pretty much got what they wanted.
And the Stanmore branch was Bakerloo at the time. Hmmm. Why does Stanmore to baker Street to Waterloo to canary warf to Stratford sound so familiar?
Jubilee line
@@Ro99 By the 1990s the Stanmore branch had become the Jubilee (1977). But yes, basically the Jubilee extension seems to deliver all the benefits that the Bakerloo would have given, plus serving Westminster and not reducing service to Elephant or missing London Bridge.
Except a connection to Thamesmead.
southeast desperately needs the thameslink 2 idea, and the southeastern lines should be taken over by tfl imo, aat the very least we would get 12tph instead of 2 if we are lucky
lewisham to canary wharf to stratford would be a life changer
Quote of the Day: “The Elephant never forgets.”
Considering the Jubilee was itself a spinoff from the Bakerloo, this extension arguably happened very much as-is (Waterloo - London Bridge - Canary Wharf - Stratford)
Managed to correctly guess the 'You are the _____ to my _____' line this time!
You can tell it’s going to be a good day when jago posted a video
On time as always is the enigma that's called Jago Hazzard
The proposal is rather more serpentine than elephantine I'd suggest. 😊
Unfortunately, the process to implement it would be Byzantine
@@oldvlognewtricks 🤣🤣
I could see it becoming a trunk route
@@oldvlognewtricks Far too many big wigs in their ivory towers for it to become a reality
Let it not be forgotten that the northern part of the Jubilee Line was originally part of the Bakerloo, so in a real sense a Bakerloo extension to Docklands and Stratford did in fact materialise.
Good point - they just extended the silver line rather than the brown one.
@@norbitonflyer5625 I like silver better than poo brown.
Keep up the good work Jago your research is second to none
A jago, A joolz, A Hidden London Hangout and an auto shananigans. All in one day. What a time to be alive.
spot on
Ted, I'll go with Jago, Hull History Nerd, Paul and Rebecca Whitewick, Auto Shenanigans and Lord Muck. So thats rail, Hull, canals, roads and machinery all covered. If you need a bit of humour try Ozzy Man Reviews (includes industrial type language, but funny). Cup of tea and feet up time!
And a robs london
@@kevinmothers904 snap, 100%
We’re living the dream
Thanks Jago. Love how you keep finding out more about the Bakerloo Line.
Imagine all the ink expended on drawing up these extensions, at least it would keep cartographers happy fitting them all on on the map. Jago has alluded to this previously.
From Bakerloo to Elephant & Castle, you’ve covered a lot of ground.
I spent a few days in London last week and I must confess, everything I know about the Underground I learned from your videos.
An absolutely marvellous journey on Eostre, without to leave my house, thank you Jago 🎉🚶 😊
This is a lovely video - I really enjoyed this video about the proposal. I think about what could have been, and it's fun exploring the numerous possibilities of lines! Your narration has always fascinated me; it's super engaging. Thanks for your videos, Jago!
I worked for O&Y New York ... and watched it tank over Canary Wharf.
(But Albert did give me an Olds Cutlass that I drove out of the showroom.) 🤠
The fleet line is what's known as the Jubilee line and it was due to extend from Charing Cross to Lewisham but it never happened due to the lack of cash. So the line was extended from Green Park to Stratford via Canary Wharf. As for the Bakerloo line, it'll be going from Elephant & Castle to Lewisham and Hayes.
Wow. "G. Ware Travelstead" is the perfect name for the developer of Canary Wharf, in that it's plainly the name of the villain from an episode of _Scooby-Doo, Where Are You?_ Fred pulls the mask off the barrow wight that's been terrorizing the poor but honest townsfolk who didn't want to sell out to the skyscraper magnate and--"But it's Mr. Travelstead!" "And I'd have gotten away with it, too, if not for you meddling kids!"
Every time I think of how Canary Wharf was developed I always remember Bob Hoskins in The Long Good Friday
You might say that their Bakerloo plans got truncated
Nice!
Another tail from the tube...
Watching your videos always gets my BP down 😌
"You are the Elephant to my Castle" eh? Very smooth, i'll try that one on the Mrs later
Let us know the address of your nearest hospital before you do so - I'm sure you'll get a few cards.
Usually I wake up to a Jago video....this time its time for sleep (23:00 in NZ)
Ke ora
Kia pai to po!
Great video Jago 👍
Some good research here...keep it up, Jago!
Since you pointed, in a previous video, that the expansion of the area around Canada Water will require something more than the jubilee and Overground, then, probably a line elephant and castle, bricklayers, Canada water, Canary wharf will make sense
Another great Sunday Jago upload...😊
The problem of sharing LU & BR is that AC traction requires DC signalling and DC traction requires AC signalling that's mains frequency blocked and for safety reasons cannot be mixed.
There are places they do mix - notably Euston: Overground uses DC and can't be converted because the tunnels they use at Primrose Hill are too small
I live in Cape Town, South Africa... Why am I so interested in watching this at 8:30 in the morning.
Great video Jago
@Ben Rider. Exactly. The plan wasn't 'scuppered' just recoloured from brown to grey.
The Bakerloo Line extension to the Docklands could of happened and to extend to Canary Wharf, Beckton and Barking Riverside or Thamesmead.
But I still think that the Bakerloo Line extension to Lewisham, Bromley and Hayes is the preferred route which will still happen. Plus with 2 new Bakerloo Line stations to be added along the A20 Old Kent Road.
Given the truly parlous state of TfL finances, with Khan having to go to Westminster regularly demanding £billions of additional funding just to keep what there us going, I wouldn’t hold your breath for it to happen I’m afraid.
True. Same goes with Crossrail 2 as well.
@@borassictime918 As far as I know, there's a team at TfL working on E&C to Lewisham. Likewise the West London Orbital, from Hendon and West Hampstead to Hounslow, via Old Oak Common. TfL is committed to both schemes and some work can be done without massive funding,
Why do I get the feeling that "G. Ware Travelstead" is the pseudonym of some American? Because "everybody will just drive there, regardless of the existing infrastructure" is the typically American way of thinking about development. Full disclosure: I am an American.
You are correct. Specifically, Texan.
Fascinating videos Jago. All we have are maps And more maps.... Dubliner
Interesting that what we got was at the heart of their Bakerloo extension proposal, a railway from Waterloo to Stratford via London Bridge and Canary Wharf.
It makes you wonder what goes through the heads of these developers, well other than pound signs. By the time they came to look at the redevelopment of the Docklands it was, hand had been for countless years, well established that public transport, or a well though out public transport network, drives demand for housing or commercial space. So, for the likes of O&Y et al expecting central government to provide such infrastructure is a little rich not to mention risky as objectives may well not align.
IDK how often it occurs in the UK, but in the US we bribe corporations to build. The State of Tennessee is spending a billion dollars on a new Ford plant near Memphis.
Yup. Billion with a B. (Aside from all the other reasons why or legislature sucks. #I Stand with the Tennessee Three.)
@@HarryLovesRuth I guess that has a pleasing circularity given the history of UERL and the mustacheoed scoundrel Charles Tyson Yerkes bringing questionable business practices to the fine folk of London!
@@HarryLovesRuth In the UK it is often the other way round, particularly in local government. In my area, a national supermarket chain was allowed to build a new store on a new business park. They offered to build new link roads to the town centre and the motorway and all the objections from the planning committee vanished away like the dew in the morn. Bribing councils like this is known as 'planning gain'.
Looking at a map of the area, it looks like the mooted route from Waterloo to Canary Wharf via Bricklayer's Arms could've very much been an extension of the line from Elephant & Castle.
and its not just the people who work there a lot of people live on the isle of dogs,and work in the city,
The brown line should end at Mudchute not some guy named Hayes’ village
If they made one at bricklayers arms they should probably reopen the one on tower Bridge road that is abandoned
In a funny way it did get to Canary Wharf. The Stanmore branch was originally the Bakerloo line.. when they built the Jubilee line how did they decide which Bakerloo branch to change?
Great video as always :) Would you consider making a video about London cross river tram project? Or plans to return trams to central London in general?
The Bakerloo's section from Waterloo to Elephant & Castle could have been moved to the Waterloo & City line. Both lines definitely need more extension proposals.
nice one Jago, and hello everyone
Great Video 😮
You can't just sneak in Thamesmead West and Thamesmead Central like that
One thing is certain, the Piccadilly line needs a huge upgrade. For I came to London from Malta last week, I took the Piccadilly line from Heathrow to King's cross, half way there we had to get off the train and use another line.
Then on the way back to Heathrow airport, the train kept stopping due to issues along the line, doors not opening, the driver was constantly apologizing 😅😅😅.
My next visit to London will be in June, this time I will be staying near Paddington station, so I will be using the Elizabeth line, I am looking forward to it because at least it's a new line .Hopefully smooth traveling 😂😂😂. I lived in Hokkaido Japan for 15 years, it certainly is a country that knows how to provide the best transportation service in the world, that is extremely reliable, punctual and at an affordable price.
But I will admit, the London underground does have a fantastic vibe , which is lacking in Japan 😂. Hopefully there will be no strikes in June, fingers crossed 🤞.
Actually, the section of Elizabeth Line from Paddington to Hayes & Harlington (where the Heathrow branch peels off from the main line) is one of the oldest in the country, opened in 1838. (Albeit the trains are only about six years old)
New trains for the Piccadilly Line are already under construction, although it willbew a year or so before they are in service
A lot more might have beens. It also highlights the lack of vision in so many developments that we seem to be playing catch-up a lot of the time, (just look at the road network in East London).
Thanks Jago.
It seems like anyone can draw a line on a map that suits their project and not care a fig about those elsewhere.
( I wonder what happened to my suggestion on investigating how a three rail Overgound train can run on four rails (in and out of Richmond for example)).
"how a three rail Overgound train can run on four rails"
The same way they already do on the shared section of the Watford DC lines between Queen's Park and Harrow, I'd assume.
Ah, the Bakerloo line, always there with its portmanteau name but nothing much seems to happen. It’s always felt like a bit of a quiet backwater to me (surprisingly as it goes through central London) but it’s one of my favourite lines…
Hi Jago from Spain. Since the Jubilee already has a chunk of the old Bakerloo from Stanmore, it would seem appropriate to extend the Jubilee and call it the Bakerloo.
I wonder if consideration was given to extending The Drain from Bank, which would have given a direct link to Waterloo, perhaps with a new station connection at Blackfriars? 🤔. Would gave been interesting.
Extending the Drain at either end would be difficult, because it is hemmed in by other lines at bank and poiunts the wrong way (SE) at Waterloo. It would also need longer platforms if it were to carry more passengers than it already does (and a station at Blackfriars woukld be pointless because the trains are always rammed in the rush hour so no-one would be able to board at an intermediate station) . Resolve those problems and you have more or less built a new line anyway.
I'd quite like the Bakerloo extension to incorporate the Abbey Wood branch of the Elizabeth Line. It'd make the Elizabeth Line simpler to navigate. But likely less useful too!
5:06 - Ouch!
DLR gets me to Comic Con so it's all good.
3:20 'A resident of The Elephant is in the room'
Canary Wharf was designed by a Canadian developer who applied North American philosophy to transport forgetting that the amount of land for multi storey car parks and multi lane highways weren't there!!
They'd obviously never seen the mistake made in Post War Birmingham, Coventry and Plymouth where the focus on the car ended up with the saying Destroyed by the Luftwaffe, Wrecked by the planners!
I remember how poor the original DLR stock was with inwards swinging doors and two cars. They were pretty full of Isle of Dogs residents BEFORE all the new development arrived!
They considered an extension to Charlton and Barnhurst at one point, it would have replaced mainline services on both the Greenwich and Bexleyheath lines and leaving only the Woolwich and Sidcup lines with BR, all Woolwich line trains would have permanently been routed via Lewisham
It would never have faltered if there had been a modern day C T Yerkes in the picture...
"Ah ha". Interesting. I wonder if theres mileage in taking a Jubilee branch from North Grennwich to Beckton today ...perhaps connecting at London City Airport? Although Abbey Wood and its new developments might generate more traffic. How many schemes might we see ressurected to connect outer reaches to the network. Keep up the good work, Sherlock...er...Jago.
Some of the southward Bakerloo extension ideas including the Dartford scheme, look like they could have aided efforts to split the Northern Line into two separate lines (what with its own Peckham Rye & Streatham proposals) or had the station been designed differently at Holborn even been used to provide more extension options for a realised Piccadilly Line route from Aldwych to Waterloo. As for other north/west Bakerloo extension ideas, the 1908 rejected route to Cricklewood and a proposed 1988 takeover of the Central's Ealing Broadway branch from Queens Park were missed opportunities IMHO.
I bet there's enough London railway related proposals to make one video for every day of the year....and then some. haha
Always interesting
great
someone beat me to the 'trunk route' gag,....🐘
They really haven't thought about underground trains in South East London.
Good video
Hi Jago. So, how many employees/visitors *do* use rail services (Underground) to get to Canary Warf?
Afternoon, all.
Afternoon
Another fascinating tale from the bakerloo... Did you manage to go and look at the skip house around the comer from bricklayers?
Alas, I did not.
@@JagoHazzard Pages Walk just by the foot of the east side of the flyover. The used to be a T-34 Tank (painted various colours including pink during the time it was there) in the same location for many years
Your voice would be good on a train announcement
In the context of Elephant & Castle and the potential closing of the spur had this scheme gone ahead, I think this unlikely at that time. The DHSS had it's principal offices located in Hannibal House, right next to underground station. Given the sheer volume of civil servants employed at the location, there would have been a good deal of traffic to the station and a political motivation to keep it open. That is all pretty academic as the department was relocated to Leeds and Elephant and Castle remains the Bakerloo's terminus.
I always try to predict your "You are the ___ to my ___." Got it right today.
I don't quite understand why the scheme envisaged extending the Bakerloo line. The logic given is to connect Canary Wharf development to Waterloo makes perfect sense but further up the Bakerloo line I don't see any real traffic pull - at least not enough to make an interchange at Waterloo unacceptable. The Jubilee extension of course does this connection on the Jubilee line culling the Fleet extension but I can't quite help but think that a rather simple few station Waterloo to Stratford via London Bridge and Canary Wharf line will be necessary in the not too distant future, especially if a people mover system is installed connecting London Bridge to the City (the Bank complex)
Developers don't think about "up the line," just what suits them! Those two crazy new stumps of Bakerloo Line would have made it more difficult to operate and doubtless reduced service to the poorer Walworth/Camberwell areas so they can get suits into Docklands.
@@mattsawyer343 I found most of the employees at Canary Wharf came from Stanmore, rather than east london ( except for me and my boss )
@@mattsawyer343 I am taking developer stupidity into account here. My point is that they appear to have been assuming use from Waterloo - looking at Bakerloo line apart from maybe Paddington it would just be inviting signalling challenges for the line. The Jubilee on the other hand gets you Bond Street and Westminster which I think adds to what the appeal to Canary Wharf footage wants.
Are you going to do a video on the dagenham Dock branch of the dlr?
This is an idea I have under consideration.
Can you review the ato on the district line
G'day all. How are we today/tonight, depending on time zone?
Hey Jago, a question i've always pondered and you might know an answer to... possibly another "Explain the name" Episode? Elephant & Castle, weird name, anyhow this is also on the coat of arms of Dumbarton, Scotland. I've tried to find a link between the two, alas dug up no leads. Wonder if you've any ideas?
Not that I'm a history buff as was forced to drop it before O level, but my memory is that the Elephant & Castle is a corruption of a former Queen of England, who, before marriage, was known as The Infanta of Castille.
Jago actually has an old video on Elephant & Castle!
ruclips.net/video/QvjgXxdhXw4/видео.html
An elephant and castle are also on the crest of Coventry.
@@michaelwestbrook5288 The name was given to Eleanor of Castile, the wife of Edward I.
I don’t know what day or time you were able to get such an empty shot of Canary Wharf station at 4:47
Canary Wharf is already well connected. We need a Stratford Walthamstow connection.
That needs to be built.
Hiya Jago @ 3:26 Talking of the 'Elephant' - does that mean that there is an 'Elephant in the room'??? 😉😀🚂🚂🚂
Politics scuppering good ideas, who'd have thought that.
Happy Easter anyway Jago.
Should 'Bakerloo' be stressed as a dactyl, anapest or cretic? (BAKE-r-loo, baker-LOO or BAKE-r-LOO)
pterodactyl, anabaptist or cretin.
5:03 I wonder if a TfL staff member in that timeline would've disobeyed orders and make a film on the Bakerloo's withdrawal from Elephant & Castle..
This was Interesting Bakerloo Line Tottenham Hale Stratford and Beckton. Been saying for while Beckton Needs Proper Transport link DLR. not enough. London Overground can be Extended Barking to Beckton
As a northerner, I am unfamiliar with the Bricklayers Arms. Why propose a route through it?
It was a big goods yard near Old Kent Road, now Mandela Way Industrial Area.
Promises, promises, I bet they'll never get round to ever extending the Bakerloo line, besides south London is now full of bus routes and other railway lines. 😁
The top part of the Jubilee line was originally a Bakerloo branch and of course runs parallel to the Metropolitan from Wembley Park to Baker Street and the one of the suburban lines from Marylebone also parallels, part of the Metropolitan line.
It's really that thing that as usual, because of the piecemeal development of rail lines in London, things interconnect maybe too much. Besides if they had built one of those extensions, Elephant and Castle could have ended up as an emergency station platforms, like the original station platforms of Charing Cross on the Jubilee Line.
You may be being elephantine, but have you also considered that it could all be castillian, because Elephant and Castle is a corruption of the Enfante of Castille. 😁
Would the extension have been a white elephant?
Does anyone else try and guess the “you are the xxx to my xxx” in Jago’s vids? I guessed correctly today, and now I feel very smug 😂
Only surprised that Lewisham did not figure in these plans. That cramped, awkward site seems to have become a dream hub for every rail scheme in SE London, as if denizens of those parts were jealous of Clapham Junction. At least Lewisham is a real place, unlike O-- O-- C----n.
Old Oak Common? Wash your mouth out with soap and water! May the Ghosts of the Great Western Railway infest your dreams!
Wondering if Canary Wharf faces a more difficult future. HSBC were reported to be looking to leave (Sunday Times). Crédit Suisse have been acquired by UBS (Their lease for 1 Cabot Square runs to 2034). A law firm moves back to the City in 2027. Deutsche Bank reduced their occupancy in 2021. The European Medicines Agency relocated in 2019.
One of the consequences of leaving the EU has been a real/perceived reduction in the importance of London as a a financial centre. I suspect that a certain amount of 'consolidation' is taking place.
I'm not quite sure why, but I was never really a fan of the DLR. It seemed slow, which _may_ be due to its driverless nature, and somewhat unstable, like (but not as extent as) being in the back of a bendy bus, or the 109 tram from Melbourne CBD to Box Hill.
I'm on the route of the number 96 tram and people who have to use the number 109 have my sympathy. Although I have to say that it would be strange to live in a city that doesn't have dozens of trams lines heading in all directions, although I guess the London Tube would be almost as useful.
The tube alone is about a thousand times better than Melbourne's whole network. Multiple ways to get to your destination, and trains so regular they don't even have a timetable as such. Compared that to Melbourne's obligatory 20 minute wait, slow service, next to no lines that aren't just going into the city, and paying for zones you don't even use. I know which I would rather.
More elephantine tales, please
Here's a question completely unrelated to this Tale from the Tube. In all your videos (and others about trains in the UK), the trains are all fairly clean and free of graffiti. Most American trains attract spray paint the way flying saucers are attracted to tabloid photographers.
We do get it, but oddly enough not so much on the modern Tube trains.
@@JagoHazzard The spray can "artists" have been priced off the trains.
I stayed in a hotel in Bricklayers Arms last week, and the area is a real blackspot for rail and tube service. Thank goodness for the number 1 bus at least.
Bollocks.
It's ten minutes' walk to the Elephant or the Borough.
A lot of South London is not served by the Tube (hence the Old Kent Road extensions proposed but the Bricklayer's Arms has a lot of bus connections and is within walking distance of at least two stations on major lines.
@@colmx8441 I did the walk to both Elephant and Borough, and in the future I'd take the 1 instead any day. It's too far for somewhere so close to the "city of". Compare Bricklayers Arms and Old Kent Road even to the rest of South London and the station density is way down.
And just think ... all those people travelling to Canary Wharf each day could, with modern technology, work from home.
what is the point of having a tube line follow another line
Usually, to act as relief.
@@JagoHazzard oh
l'm suprise no one has come on here and said " it should have been extended to Clapham junction " !!!!!!! And it's been posted 2 hours plus !!!
It seems odd that when the Jubilee line was extended in the late 1990s the entire fleet of 1983 trains (only 15 years old at the time) was replaced by the current 1996 trains
Yet the 50 year old 1972 trains are still running on the Bakerloo line with no prospect of replacements in the foreseeable future
Maybe they should have extended the Bakerloo line instead of the Jubilee line
The 1983 stock were never a huge success. The single leaf doors were a mistake - too slow and too small for 1990s conditions. When tghe line was extended a larger fleet was needed and it was decided that having a single type was preferable to mixing stocks. As there were not enough to re-stock any other line they had to go except the Bakerloo, and their longer carriage lengths made them unsuitable for that line as there are some curves where they wouldn't fit.
Interesting though that the small windows of both the Jubilee's 1996 stock and the Northern's 1995 stock (which have similar bodies but different electric bits) are a legacy of an earlier plan to rebuild the 1983 stock to be compatible with 1996 stock. It never happened as it was cheaper to build more new trains than convert the old ones.