Friends, I suggest it is time we start crowdfunding the Jago line. The proposed line will run from Camberwell to Thamesmead, connecting with no other lines, and only running one way.
How curious. You'd think big private money would've got things done, but then it's Yerkes without sexy/silly moustaches anyway. I'm kicking myself for missing that Credit Suisse shot. But I suppose if you have enough B-roll footage from hanging around big business blocks, statistically some of them will turn up Trumps before long. And poor old Thamesmede is hanging out high and dry still. In Scotland there's Hawick which had a railway.
Something akin to that is being done in my town (Montreal) in the form of the REM. Getting new metro extensions done here is sloooooow due to a historically weak transit agency and the technology (rubber-tire subway chosen because the mayor who conceived the plan was a Paris fanboi). So a massive automated steel-wheel metro is being built by a private company that is backed by the provincial pension fund. And being effectively private capital, they chose a lot of ugly-but-fast-to-build elevated guideways and building along highway rights of way to get 'er done inexpensively. There have been delays and cost overruns due to...ah...certain events in 2020 and freaking things like explosives found in the 100 year old tunnel they took over. But it's still on track (heh) to be open by next year.
Not northern cities. Our version is, “feck it, let’s just get something done” and then a year down the line it will get cancelled or stripped right back
Near me the DOT wanted to build 20 miles of road but they only had enough money for 10 miles. A state congressmen said “Well, build 10 miles. Once you do that, people will be screaming for the other 10”. He was right. The money was “found” halfway through construction.
Rome has an appalling problem with their metro, which they’ve been building for years. Every few yards - sorry, metres - they hit some previously unknown/forgotten Roman temple/baths/apartment block and that’s it for 6 months or more, while the archeologists take over.
@@tomburke5311 that's to be expected when the original Roman city is underneath a huge part of current Rome. No one's ever dared (or bothered to) excavating it since there's buildings on top of everything, so it's unknown how big the original city really was. It's impossible to dig a hole anywhere in central Rome without going into some 2000 year old building. They even have buildings with multi-story basements dating back to the original city, because they just kept building on top as the city flooded and sediment buried the buildings. It's one of the only cities in the world to still have much of the original structures somewhat preserved (aka buried) under the current ground level
The Channel Tunnel probably the biggest case in point, if my memory serves me right it took over 200 years. I do recognise that both Napoleon and Hitler got in the way
@@msg5507 yes possibly not sure Obelix would have fitted through. I think the first attempt at a tunnel, near Folkestone was started and abandoned in 1700 or there abouts
My favourite game when looking at "failed" public transport ventures is to ask myself "What would Mr C. T. Yerkes have done?". I get whole minutes of quiet enjoyment out of contemplating the answer...
I think he did OK, in both London and Chicago. The amalgamation of the different companies in London was a good idea and the creation of a significant power-generating company likewise. In Chicago he promoted and developed the Loop, the downtown section of the L (the elevated railway) - again, a good idea and still in use today (albeit enhanced). Trouble was, his schemes cost a lot of money. But I really think he was an important influence in taking the London Underground forward.
This is actually quite reminiscent of Yerkes. It sounds as if the Jubilee line extension, which has been hugely beneficial, might not have been built without Olympia and York's scheme and their promised financial contribution. Which then never materialised, rather like Yerkes' promised profits, but by then the line was being built anyway. It was too late to stop it, so we all reaped the benefits - like it was too late to un-build the Bakerloo, Hampstead and Piccadilly tubes so they had to do their best to make them profitable or at least break even.
The original Crossrail scheme didn't include the branch via Canary Wharf. If it had, then maybe O&Y would have been happy with this being built first, rather than a line to Waterloo? In retrospect, it was a correct decision to build SOMETHING to Canary Wharf, as the DLR by the late 90s was horribly overcrowded.
Whenever I see vids of the isle of dogs these days it still amazes me how it looks now.. I remember mudlarking in the sludge as a kid when literally it was just all mud and junk and rotting fish bits, and those legendary cargo lifting towers all the way down... and I'm not even that old yet.. I don't think anyway.. :(
I'm not that old, either - at least I don't think I am. We did a sort of project on the Royal Docks when I was at Primary school (in West London) in the late 1960's when it was still a working dock. The next time I went there was only about 5 years ago, taking my kid to MCM at the Excell centre. I could hardly believe it was the same place.
Bloody hell and he shows my old flat in Thamesmead O.o Last place in south London I lived in Thamesmead's in the foremost tower block shown, I quite liked the place but events involving a war of drug dealers and finding one of them brown bread on my landing and I says to me missus "right, that is IT... we are outta here" moving as far west as possible but coming back to Dorset which I favoured when I was based outside Poole.
Olympia and York met their Waterloo. In the 1990s there was a proposal to build a freight line from the north of England to the Channel Tunnel passing under central London built to carry lorries on rail vehicles. IIRC one of the government's concerns was who would pick up the bill if the proposers failed. Christian Wolmar wrote a couple of articles; Rail 408: Central Railway: a big idea that could even be beautiful, and Rail 768: The mystery of the freight railway that never happened. I tried to post a link but my comment disappeared.
My *BIG IDEA* was a railway line into East Anglia, then under the Thames outside London then to the Chunnel . . . . - but who listens to lunatics commenting on RUclips?!
Another fascinating piece of tube history that I didn't know. Rather like Yerkes, it sounds as if Olympia and York helped some extremely useful infrastructure get built that might not have existed without them, even though someone else had to fund it. The idea of having an option for running full size trains sounds interesting, at least from Stratford/West Ham (and points east) to Waterloo, but they would need to be full length too. Could have been complementary to Crossrail rather than an alternative? Travelled on a Sunday recently and was surprised to find Jubilee trains packed and standing even with Canary Wharf closed down. But the connection right through to the West End is very useful (and is the only direct tube connection from the London Tilbury and Southend lines).
Double interest seeing as a distant relation designed Waterloo station and my grandfather's family were the once affluent Greenwich naval Watson's with many long years of association with Greenwich RN, think my great grandfather's plaque that was on the old Dreadnought wall is still about there in the museum site. Funny story in my paternal grandmother was a Watson and a Scott (cousin and a bit to the chap who designed Waterloo), herself hailing from the well to do Morningside area of Edinburgh, when she married my grandfather she became Watson-Watson sounding like a firm of accountants lol
Sounds like they could have built a even longer original DLR route that if not all the way to Waterloo possibly could have had stations outside of East London
We need an underground Tower Hill Station (to replace Tower Gateway) and for the DLR to go somewhere west of Zone 1. I don't really care where it goes. The main thing is to get it out of Zone 1, so you get rid of the Zone 1 terminal station, and have the train take over some on the top track, that is under-utilised.
@@DavidShepheard the vaults underneath The Tower of London prevent that idea. That’s why DLR originally terminated at Tower Gateway elevated station. The only way to get under the ground was to extend past towards Bank.
@@leeroberts1192 I double checked and I think you’re right. It was the Jubilee overrun at Charing Cross I was thinking of, that terminates very close to the Aldwych branch. Not sure on the relative depths though, a connection might not be physically achievable.
Did you forget about the junction and tunnels North of North Greenwich that were built with a "possible fiture" extinction to woolwich and Thamesmede? This was the word on the 4ft when North Greenwich Station opened on 14/5/99.
Completely out of context comment No 2 - Whilst viewing your videos on my phone, your little logo/image, the one that appears in the bottom right hand corner, always makes me think about the television series, Father Brown which uses a similar silhouette. 🙂 Well, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it 🤣 Another great video. Such a fascinating subject with so many literal twists and turns. Thank you very much. 🙂🐿🌈❤️
Jago, have you ever thought about doing a couple videos on Dublin's transport? Maybe something on the Luas/DART or on their planned metro? Always found their system was alright for a city of their size but it has some interesting quirks
If it's interesting quirks (and features) you're after, then it's Doug DeMuro you want. Maybe Mr. Jago can do a collab with Mr. DeMuro… that would be an excellent duo for RUclips viewers! I vote "Yes" to the pair of them; may their partnership be long and fruitful!
A private company looking to build a railway to move people to their development? "History never repeats itself, but it does often rhyme", as Mark Twain wrote.
@@halftimelordwizard too many examples to count really, it was a very common tactic to build new railways or new extensions to a new development. Even in the USA, up until about the 50s. In recent years there’s been some minor scandals where the developer didn’t want to pay as much as they first promised and negotiate with the government to cover more with public funds. Jago briefly mentioned a situation like that in his video on Battersea Power Station station.
The Channel tunnel has to be one of the most likely candidates. I believe it was first proposed in the early 1800's and the first surveys were certainly done before 1850.
PPI (public-private investment) was an unmitigated disaster in every area it was tried, so I don't think either major party will go anywhere near anything similar for many decades. None of the politicians listened to the bankers who told them over and over and over again that the only way any large project could be properly financed was over 20 years; the politicians wanted things done in 5 years, just in time to win the next election.
Thanks for the Canadian content, Toronto's Reichmann family were very rich on paper but their Olympia & York became known as Oy & Vey after they declared bankruptcy. Fortunately, Paul Reichmann was re-hired as Chairman by the consortium of investors who took a controlling interest of Canary Wharf because he knew the development better than anyone else.
if they wanted mainline trains what would have actually been a decent idea would have been a spur from greenwich up to canary wharf and got paths from charring cross to greenwich on the national network
If only the Jubilee Line would of extend from North Greenwich to London City Airport and Thamesmead. And from Stratford low level to Stratford International and possibly extended further to say like Hackney. The Jubilee Line is still a ideal tube line that could of extend to the Docklands.
Another interesting video - many thanks. Something that a lot of people forget is that for quite a while, One Canada Square - the original tower - stood pretty much alone. it was opened in 1991; another tower came along in 1997; and then the floodgates opened, with many towers opening in the early years of the current century. But through most of the 1990s, One Canada Square looked a bit lost, all on its own.
I used to have a distant view from my flat near Deptford, and the One Canada Square building stood in splendid isolation for a long time. Nowadays if you can see it at all amongst the forest of skyscrapers, the glass pyramid roof is the only distinguishing feature.
Canary Wharf is my favourite building in London and I could see it from my school in Hornchurch even when it was smoggy as the sun would shine off the top of it creating a weird hovering golden triangle in the sky.
It's a testament to your sheer quality that I eagerly await new videos about a public transport system on the complete other side of the world. Cheers Mr. Hazzard!
@@chriscarrollsydneyGiven that (s)he said "The _Complete_ other side of the World", I think he must mean, not _just_ South of the river, but... _Thamesmead..!_
I seem to recall a phrase "Modern Life is Rubbish". Things go a a snail's pace with enquiries & reports plus feasibility studies. If we apply decisions over the last forty years to Victorian Britain then over half the railways would never have been built.
But, in the end, TfL did take that idea of a mainline route through Canary Wharf & the Docklands and run with it, tacking it on to the Crossrail proposal. The branch to Abbey Wood could be thought as the spiritual successor to the Waterloo & Greenwich
My local station is Westcombe Park and I can’t get to Waterloo East or Charing Cross directly, I have to change at London Bridge. If I ever wanted to go to Luton of course, which I have no wish to do, I can get a train directly there. The Greenwich Line is bad at the best of times and Southeastern have cut services because obviously nobody in my part of London needs to travel. We have buses but the roads through and around Greenwich often resemble a car park as the traffic barely moves at busy times.
Just imagine how little the traffic will move once the so-called Low Traffic Neighbourhood schemes either side of Greenwich Park are imposed, even with the reduced hours of the roads being closed !!
They say diplomacy is the art of letting the other person have your way; between Crossrail and the Jubilee Line extension as built, the system sounds remarkably like what O&Y had in mind. Too late to do their investors much good, of course, but there it is.
I think it's easy to get sniffy about private finance initiatives in the development of Tube lines in this day and age and conveniently forgets that that this is how most railway networks began and developed across the western world. I well remember the Olympia & York initiative and I would argue that they largely achieved what they set out do I.e. get a Tube extension from Waterloo and London Bridge; the Canary Wharf development was never going to be viable without it and the DLR was never going to provide sufficient capacity. I think the collapse of O&Y is a 'red herring', major developments like Canary Wharf always involve large debt to be serviced and nobody could have forseen the utter stupidity of the Major government in 1992 driving-up interest rates to an astronomical 15% in the middle of a recession in an imbecillic attempt to shadow the Deutschemark; that policy crashed Sterling and drove many businesses to unnecessary bankruptcy across the Country.
A fascinating video. I was unaware of the proposed line to Greenwich. As you say, it would have not had enough capacity to make it work properly, as travelling between Canary Wharf & Stratford is already close to being overloaded, with the gates of Canary Wharf having to be closed to customers on a number of occasions.
1. The Central London Rail study was undertaken by BR and LT. The politicians didn't like their influence so when the East London Rail Study was done this was contracted by DfT to Halcrow Fox. 2. The reason why the trains were proposed to be mainline sized for the O and Y scheme was because the ride quality and noise levels were better. 3. The developer contributions were linked to the opening date of the Jubilee Line. Because it opened late the total amount paid by Canary Wharf was 3pc.of the total cost. Remember that when you hear politicians (in the archives) banging on about.the JLE being privately financed.
CWG as they now are, Have not I suspect entirely given up on the idea of their own railway, I live nearby to CW and certainly until the vote of 23/6/16 they were quite keen on a link to St Pancras/Kings Cross/ Eurostar even if they had to either pay for it themselves or even build it themselves. They didn't think The purple train, DLR, and Tube were quite satisfactory. Although maybe covid and home working will change the maths.
Ah, poor old Thamesmead. Used, of course, as the setting for 'A Clockwork Orange'. I was once informed by an ex-resident that if you want to live in a world worse than the one in Clockwork Orange, just move to the place where they filmed it. Funnily enough, I've never been there.
I guess there is still room for an extension to the extension so maybe Thamesmead might get its station....or maybe they will just rely on the purple line. I have a vague feeling that since around 1923, privately owned lines would not have been financially sound. Even with the potential traffic numbers that London commuters might have had on a such a line. But it doesnt sound as if Olympia and York actually planned for potential expansion so...too small to succeed....is a fair assessment.
There's not. To extend the Jubilee to Thamesmead from Stratford you've have to cut the service between North Greenwich and Stratford. This isn't going to happen.
I used to live midway between Charlton and Westcombe Park so such a development would have been excellent for my commuting. One reason housing was comparatively cheap in that area until the 21st century was the poor rail connection to central London using the North Kent line.
Odd to make Westcombe park a depot when it is constrained by a road AND the Blackwall Tunnel southern approach at one end, and a bridge with a Italianate house/estate owned by Jools Holland at the other. He'd have kicked up a hootenay. I imagine they would make the Angerstein Triangle (currently the Met Police car pound) a depot but it's not that big. At least Maze Hill had a disused third platform, Westcombe Park doesn't even have that. Curious where the Parkway would have gone, probably by what is now the IKEA I imagine. And no footage of Westombe Park by @Jago Hazzard? He'll have to have a fresh trip down - just a pity trains there are so infrequent thanks to the cuts.
@@JonathanRichardsonUK My guess is that terminating the line at Wescombe Park (presumably because that was the nearest Rail Station to Greenwich Parkway) was yet another example of why Olympia & York didn't have a clue when it came to Transport Planning, as well as the fact they wanted to do the project on the cheap. That's why only Governments have the money & strategic sense to actually build Transport Networks. Something that was the case both in the Victorian Era & Now. Regardless, if this line was ever built, I wonder how it would have affected any project to build the Millennium Dome.
Another very interesting video! I always suspected that there was something suspicious about the change from the "Fleet Line as planned and the Jubilee Line as constructed. The former would have been far more useful to existing regular tube users, relieving overcrowding on the District Line, connecting Fenchurch street stationdirectly to the tube network and a tube station in the Ludgate Hill area of the City where there are no tube stations and the possible extension to the public transport desert of Thamesmead. I always wondered if the Jubilee line was built simply to transport financial services and banking employees from Waterloo, where their commuter trains arrived from the leafy suburbs of Surrey and south west London direct to their new offices in Canary Wharf and sod any benefit a new tube line could bring to Londoners and existing commuters travelling on overcrowded trains on other routes. Seems I was right. Well it was the 1980s and Thatcher's Britain! Where money and business interests trumped improving public services.The abandoning of most of the nearly new Charing Cross station was a waste of money too
I suspect you had to do some /serious/ digging to get this one together. Brill. Have you ever thought of putting your stuff together as something more durable like a book or perhaps clay tablets?
This brings back memories for me, I was working at WS Atkins when the O&Y rampage across Docklands was happening, it was a real kick in the proverbials when they went under and a lot of Work was lost (Not to mention Money)
What did Olympia and York get back for investing £400m in someone else's line though? Apart from being able to choose Waterloo over Charing Cross that is.
Boo hoo! No train service to Thamesmead! How are those poor Droogies going to get to the Korova Milkbar and listen to The Heaven Seventeen! Shame, O my brothers!
What a fascinating "might-have-been". With the Elizabeth Line now fully open in 2023 (thereby uplifting London rail capacity by 10% with a genuine main line right under London), maybe we ended up with an even better outcome, just 30 years later than might have been? Thanks for creating this video.
The irony that Thatcher's 3rd parliament turned down the W&G proposal for the risks of privately built and operated. Then the railways were largely privatised between the JLE being confirmed and finished. 😂
if memory serves, Abbey Wood was the nearest railways station to Thamesmead- and where has Crossrail gone to? when it would have been far better to extend/share the line to Dartford
yeah and another what if,and just out side billingsgate market entrance there is a set of traffic lights,many lights therewhich at one time was at a junction.
Uk has turned simple transport infrastructure into monumental prestige projects with astronomical costs, creating a vicious circle of difficulty and barriers. We should see these things as simple, everyday projects with no need for monumental cutting-edge big-name architecture and prestige high profile and just get on and build them simply, like they do in Spain or in Turkey.
Good thing this wasn't built. No one wants the Daleks getting access to the underground. (Yes, I know, the Jubilee line extension, but that was only invaded by stormtroopers and I don't rate them.)
8:33 Talking about companies going bankrupt while showing the Credit Suisse building 😁
Sometimes you just have the perfect shot…
Friends, I suggest it is time we start crowdfunding the Jago line. The proposed line will run from Camberwell to Thamesmead, connecting with no other lines, and only running one way.
Tube to Westcombe Park and Blackheath would actually be useful nowadays
How curious. You'd think big private money would've got things done, but then it's Yerkes without sexy/silly moustaches anyway.
I'm kicking myself for missing that Credit Suisse shot. But I suppose if you have enough B-roll footage from hanging around big business blocks, statistically some of them will turn up Trumps before long.
And poor old Thamesmede is hanging out high and dry still. In Scotland there's Hawick which had a railway.
Using my knowledge of the GWR "Parkway" stations Greenwich Parkway implies a station not really that near Greenwich
2nd 🥈 😊
👏🏻👏🏻 I was 3rd
Hooray!
132nd for me.
Every city has a version of “Ah feck it let’s just get something done because this is going to take forever.”
Something akin to that is being done in my town (Montreal) in the form of the REM. Getting new metro extensions done here is sloooooow due to a historically weak transit agency and the technology (rubber-tire subway chosen because the mayor who conceived the plan was a Paris fanboi). So a massive automated steel-wheel metro is being built by a private company that is backed by the provincial pension fund. And being effectively private capital, they chose a lot of ugly-but-fast-to-build elevated guideways and building along highway rights of way to get 'er done inexpensively.
There have been delays and cost overruns due to...ah...certain events in 2020 and freaking things like explosives found in the 100 year old tunnel they took over. But it's still on track (heh) to be open by next year.
Not northern cities. Our version is, “feck it, let’s just get something done” and then a year down the line it will get cancelled or stripped right back
Near me the DOT wanted to build 20 miles of road but they only had enough money for 10 miles. A state congressmen said “Well, build 10 miles. Once you do that, people will be screaming for the other 10”. He was right. The money was “found” halfway through construction.
Rome has an appalling problem with their metro, which they’ve been building for years. Every few yards - sorry, metres - they hit some previously unknown/forgotten Roman temple/baths/apartment block and that’s it for 6 months or more, while the archeologists take over.
@@tomburke5311 that's to be expected when the original Roman city is underneath a huge part of current Rome. No one's ever dared (or bothered to) excavating it since there's buildings on top of everything, so it's unknown how big the original city really was. It's impossible to dig a hole anywhere in central Rome without going into some 2000 year old building. They even have buildings with multi-story basements dating back to the original city, because they just kept building on top as the city flooded and sediment buried the buildings. It's one of the only cities in the world to still have much of the original structures somewhat preserved (aka buried) under the current ground level
The Channel Tunnel probably the biggest case in point, if my memory serves me right it took over 200 years. I do recognise that both Napoleon and Hitler got in the way
I thought it was napoleon that first mooted the idea
@@Keithbarber I think the idea was muted quite a while before England to France tunnel was considered but in France I agree probably was Napoleon
@@MickCampin-jp9kb It was first mooted in Roman times according to one of the Asterix and Obelix cartoons I read.
@@msg5507 yes possibly not sure Obelix would have fitted through. I think the first attempt at a tunnel, near Folkestone was started and abandoned in 1700 or there abouts
My favourite game when looking at "failed" public transport ventures is to ask myself "What would Mr C. T. Yerkes have done?". I get whole minutes of quiet enjoyment out of contemplating the answer...
Based on his exploits in Chicago, enraged the entire city against him and shagged most of the female population of the Greater London Area.
Skipped town and moved on to the next set of suckers--er, "opportunities"--I expect.
I think he did OK, in both London and Chicago. The amalgamation of the different companies in London was a good idea and the creation of a significant power-generating company likewise. In Chicago he promoted and developed the Loop, the downtown section of the L (the elevated railway) - again, a good idea and still in use today (albeit enhanced). Trouble was, his schemes cost a lot of money. But I really think he was an important influence in taking the London Underground forward.
@@Punnery Well he built transport systems in New York, Chicago and London and boy did it put them on the map . . . .
This is actually quite reminiscent of Yerkes. It sounds as if the Jubilee line extension, which has been hugely beneficial, might not have been built without Olympia and York's scheme and their promised financial contribution. Which then never materialised, rather like Yerkes' promised profits, but by then the line was being built anyway. It was too late to stop it, so we all reaped the benefits - like it was too late to un-build the Bakerloo, Hampstead and Piccadilly tubes so they had to do their best to make them profitable or at least break even.
The original Crossrail scheme didn't include the branch via Canary Wharf. If it had, then maybe O&Y would have been happy with this being built first, rather than a line to Waterloo?
In retrospect, it was a correct decision to build SOMETHING to Canary Wharf, as the DLR by the late 90s was horribly overcrowded.
The answer is obvious: hire Charles Tyson Yerkes! He'll get 'er done !
One doesn't just "hire Charles Tyson Yerkes". If you are willing to sell out to him for a pittance then there might be a conversation to be had.
Whenever I see vids of the isle of dogs these days it still amazes me how it looks now.. I remember mudlarking in the sludge as a kid when literally it was just all mud and junk and rotting fish bits, and those legendary cargo lifting towers all the way down... and I'm not even that old yet.. I don't think anyway.. :(
I'm not that old, either - at least I don't think I am. We did a sort of project on the Royal Docks when I was at Primary school (in West London) in the late 1960's when it was still a working dock. The next time I went there was only about 5 years ago, taking my kid to MCM at the Excell centre. I could hardly believe it was the same place.
@@unclenogbad1509 Yeah even til the 80s and 90s..Incredible how quickly it popped up.. New York took longer to skycrape like this didn't it?
@al3k yeah but NYC didn't import nearly as many migrants
@@longiusaescius2537 erm.. wasn't New York all built and populated by migrants? :)
Sounds like the Aldermen were insufficiently Boodled..... lol
Bloody hell and he shows my old flat in Thamesmead O.o Last place in south London I lived in Thamesmead's in the foremost tower block shown, I quite liked the place but events involving a war of drug dealers and finding one of them brown bread on my landing and I says to me missus "right, that is IT... we are outta here" moving as far west as possible but coming back to Dorset which I favoured when I was based outside Poole.
Olympia and York met their Waterloo.
In the 1990s there was a proposal to build a freight line from the north of England to the Channel Tunnel passing under central London built to carry lorries on rail vehicles. IIRC one of the government's concerns was who would pick up the bill if the proposers failed.
Christian Wolmar wrote a couple of articles; Rail 408: Central Railway: a big idea that could even be beautiful, and Rail 768: The mystery of the freight railway that never happened.
I tried to post a link but my comment disappeared.
RUclips doesn't allow links to other sites in comments, and automatically removes/deletes them. A ham-fisted approach to preventing spam...
@@andrewgwilliam4831 except for links to wikipedia
@@thesteelrodent1796 Really? How bizarre!
@@thesteelrodent1796 I knew they let RUclips links through, didn’t realise they had an exception for Wikipedia too
My *BIG IDEA* was a railway line into East Anglia, then under the Thames outside London then to the Chunnel . . . . - but who listens to lunatics commenting on RUclips?!
Another fascinating piece of tube history that I didn't know. Rather like Yerkes, it sounds as if Olympia and York helped some extremely useful infrastructure get built that might not have existed without them, even though someone else had to fund it. The idea of having an option for running full size trains sounds interesting, at least from Stratford/West Ham (and points east) to Waterloo, but they would need to be full length too. Could have been complementary to Crossrail rather than an alternative? Travelled on a Sunday recently and was surprised to find Jubilee trains packed and standing even with Canary Wharf closed down. But the connection right through to the West End is very useful (and is the only direct tube connection from the London Tilbury and Southend lines).
I do like the abbreviation "Oh and Why?"
It hadn't occurred to me!
Double interest seeing as a distant relation designed Waterloo station and my grandfather's family were the once affluent Greenwich naval Watson's with many long years of association with Greenwich RN, think my great grandfather's plaque that was on the old Dreadnought wall is still about there in the museum site. Funny story in my paternal grandmother was a Watson and a Scott (cousin and a bit to the chap who designed Waterloo), herself hailing from the well to do Morningside area of Edinburgh, when she married my grandfather she became Watson-Watson sounding like a firm of accountants lol
As someone who can read Cyrillic, your username gives me a headache
Sounds like Holmes yelling for a friend.
LoL
Sounds like they could have built a even longer original DLR route that if not all the way to Waterloo possibly could have had stations outside of East London
We need an underground Tower Hill Station (to replace Tower Gateway) and for the DLR to go somewhere west of Zone 1. I don't really care where it goes. The main thing is to get it out of Zone 1, so you get rid of the Zone 1 terminal station, and have the train take over some on the top track, that is under-utilised.
@@DavidShepheard the vaults underneath The Tower of London prevent that idea. That’s why DLR originally terminated at Tower Gateway elevated station. The only way to get under the ground was to extend past towards Bank.
I don't think there's the room to be able to route any extension west from Bank
@@leeroberts1192 I double checked and I think you’re right.
It was the Jubilee overrun at Charing Cross I was thinking of, that terminates very close to the Aldwych branch. Not sure on the relative depths though, a connection might not be physically achievable.
Future Jagoes spotted at 2:25. Apparently they breed in the tunnels.
Did you forget about the junction and tunnels North of North Greenwich that were built with a "possible fiture" extinction to woolwich and Thamesmede?
This was the word on the 4ft when North Greenwich Station opened on 14/5/99.
I never knew about this private scheme - thank you for unearthing this!
Completely out of context comment No 2 -
Whilst viewing your videos on my phone, your little logo/image, the one that appears in the bottom right hand corner, always makes me think about the television series, Father Brown which uses a similar silhouette. 🙂
Well, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it 🤣
Another great video. Such a fascinating subject with so many literal twists and turns.
Thank you very much.
🙂🐿🌈❤️
More mostly failed tube lines, please
"But this is ignoring a massive elephant in the room." I see what you did there, Jago.
Jago, have you ever thought about doing a couple videos on Dublin's transport? Maybe something on the Luas/DART or on their planned metro? Always found their system was alright for a city of their size but it has some interesting quirks
If it's interesting quirks (and features) you're after, then it's Doug DeMuro you want. Maybe Mr. Jago can do a collab with Mr. DeMuro… that would be an excellent duo for RUclips viewers! I vote "Yes" to the pair of them; may their partnership be long and fruitful!
Greenwich Parkway would probably have been adjacent to Maze Hill or Westcombe Park
Limited Capacity and Poor Connections, sounds like my LinkedIn profile
A private company looking to build a railway to move people to their development? "History never repeats itself, but it does often rhyme", as Mark Twain wrote.
What else is an example of this? Thanks
@@halftimelordwizard too many examples to count really, it was a very common tactic to build new railways or new extensions to a new development. Even in the USA, up until about the 50s. In recent years there’s been some minor scandals where the developer didn’t want to pay as much as they first promised and negotiate with the government to cover more with public funds. Jago briefly mentioned a situation like that in his video on Battersea Power Station station.
The Northern Line Extension is a great modern example.
I wonder what the longest time is between somone having an idea for a railway line and its opening? Over to you, Mr Hazzard!
The Channel tunnel has to be one of the most likely candidates. I believe it was first proposed in the early 1800's and the first surveys were certainly done before 1850.
I think one of the Caesars was actually the first to suggest it.
Another transport scheme I did not know about, Brilliant video sir.
Thanks Jago! It does rather beg the question whether private money will again finance new transport links in London..I hope so!
emirates air car service ?
PPI (public-private investment) was an unmitigated disaster in every area it was tried, so I don't think either major party will go anywhere near anything similar for many decades. None of the politicians listened to the bankers who told them over and over and over again that the only way any large project could be properly financed was over 20 years; the politicians wanted things done in 5 years, just in time to win the next election.
Thanks for the Canadian content, Toronto's Reichmann family were very rich on paper but their Olympia & York became known as Oy & Vey after they declared bankruptcy. Fortunately, Paul Reichmann was re-hired as Chairman by the consortium of investors who took a controlling interest of Canary Wharf because he knew the development better than anyone else.
if they wanted mainline trains what would have actually been a decent idea would have been a spur from greenwich up to canary wharf and got paths from charring cross to greenwich on the national network
If only the Jubilee Line would of extend from North Greenwich to London City Airport and Thamesmead. And from Stratford low level to Stratford International and possibly extended further to say like Hackney. The Jubilee Line is still a ideal tube line that could of extend to the Docklands.
They were all private before the London transport takeover though.
As you stated, you were 3rd.... 🥉
Another interesting video - many thanks.
Something that a lot of people forget is that for quite a while, One Canada Square - the original tower - stood pretty much alone. it was opened in 1991; another tower came along in 1997; and then the floodgates opened, with many towers opening in the early years of the current century. But through most of the 1990s, One Canada Square looked a bit lost, all on its own.
I used to have a distant view from my flat near Deptford, and the One Canada Square building stood in splendid isolation for a long time. Nowadays if you can see it at all amongst the forest of skyscrapers, the glass pyramid roof is the only distinguishing feature.
Canary Wharf is my favourite building in London and I could see it from my school in Hornchurch even when it was smoggy as the sun would shine off the top of it creating a weird hovering golden triangle in the sky.
It's a testament to your sheer quality that I eagerly await new videos about a public transport system on the complete other side of the world. Cheers Mr. Hazzard!
…”the complete other side of the world.” So you live south of the river then…
@@chriscarrollsydneyGiven that (s)he said "The _Complete_ other side of the World", I think he must mean, not _just_ South of the river, but... _Thamesmead..!_
7:52 Is that...? Has Jago accidentally recorded a visitation by the 4th Doctor?
“So your gonna buy yourself a tube line?”
I seem to recall a phrase "Modern Life is Rubbish". Things go a a snail's pace with enquiries & reports plus feasibility studies. If we apply decisions over the last forty years to Victorian Britain then over half the railways would never have been built.
But, in the end, TfL did take that idea of a mainline route through Canary Wharf & the Docklands and run with it, tacking it on to the Crossrail proposal. The branch to Abbey Wood could be thought as the spiritual successor to the Waterloo & Greenwich
Jago *almost* got into No. 10 but when they realised who had rung the bell they shut the door in his face!! 😅
7:01is probably what they said when they heard the plan had been turned down
Jago, there is no way you are a failing company - great vids - keep 'em coming :-))
So early to this video it’s like I’m on a private line!
😂
My local station is Westcombe Park and I can’t get to Waterloo East or Charing Cross directly, I have to change at London Bridge. If I ever wanted to go to Luton of course, which I have no wish to do, I can get a train directly there. The Greenwich Line is bad at the best of times and Southeastern have cut services because obviously nobody in my part of London needs to travel. We have buses but the roads through and around Greenwich often resemble a car park as the traffic barely moves at busy times.
Just imagine how little the traffic will move once the so-called Low Traffic Neighbourhood schemes either side of Greenwich Park are imposed, even with the reduced hours of the roads being closed !!
They say diplomacy is the art of letting the other person have your way; between Crossrail and the Jubilee Line extension as built, the system sounds remarkably like what O&Y had in mind. Too late to do their investors much good, of course, but there it is.
A capital tale of capital capitalism! Lots of fascinating “what if” moments too, London’s railways could’ve been very different indeed.
I think it's easy to get sniffy about private finance initiatives in the development of Tube lines in this day and age and conveniently forgets that that this is how most railway networks began and developed across the western world.
I well remember the Olympia & York initiative and I would argue that they largely achieved what they set out do I.e. get a Tube extension from Waterloo and London Bridge; the Canary Wharf development was never going to be viable without it and the DLR was never going to provide sufficient capacity.
I think the collapse of O&Y is a 'red herring', major developments like Canary Wharf always involve large debt to be serviced and nobody could have forseen the utter stupidity of the Major government in 1992 driving-up interest rates to an astronomical 15% in the middle of a recession in an imbecillic attempt to shadow the Deutschemark; that policy crashed Sterling and drove many businesses to unnecessary bankruptcy across the Country.
A fascinating video. I was unaware of the proposed line to Greenwich. As you say, it would have not had enough capacity to make it work properly, as travelling between Canary Wharf & Stratford is already close to being overloaded, with the gates of Canary Wharf having to be closed to customers on a number of occasions.
1. The Central London Rail study was undertaken by BR and LT. The politicians didn't like their influence so when the East London Rail Study was done this was contracted by DfT to Halcrow Fox.
2. The reason why the trains were proposed to be mainline sized for the O and Y scheme was because the ride quality and noise levels were better.
3. The developer contributions were linked to the opening date of the Jubilee Line. Because it opened late the total amount paid by Canary Wharf was 3pc.of the total cost. Remember that when you hear politicians (in the archives) banging on about.the JLE being privately financed.
Thamesmead sounds like an area with very poor public transport links.
CWG as they now are, Have not I suspect entirely given up on the idea of their own railway, I live nearby to CW and certainly until the vote of 23/6/16 they were quite keen on a link to St Pancras/Kings Cross/ Eurostar even if they had to either pay for it themselves or even build it themselves. They didn't think The purple train, DLR, and Tube were quite satisfactory. Although maybe covid and home working will change the maths.
Jago have you considered the Bristol Metro system?
funny how the scales of development exceeded Billingsgate Fish Market
Old Charlie Yerkes would have had them all built in double quick time, no messing about.
You are the Jubilee Line Extension to my Crossrail.
Another fascinating video. Thanks.
They did a documentary about the LDDC. It's called The Long Good Friday
That is definitely hard to believe doc. Particularly the bit about bringing the OIympics to east London....
Great history capsule, Jago!
Ah, poor old Thamesmead. Used, of course, as the setting for 'A Clockwork Orange'. I was once informed by an ex-resident that if you want to live in a world worse than the one in Clockwork Orange, just move to the place where they filmed it. Funnily enough, I've never been there.
I guess there is still room for an extension to the extension so maybe Thamesmead might get its station....or maybe they will just rely on the purple line.
I have a vague feeling that since around 1923, privately owned lines would not have been financially sound. Even with the potential traffic numbers that London commuters might have had on a such a line. But it doesnt sound as if Olympia and York actually planned for potential expansion so...too small to succeed....is a fair assessment.
There's not. To extend the Jubilee to Thamesmead from Stratford you've have to cut the service between North Greenwich and Stratford. This isn't going to happen.
This was an absolutely outstanding episode, nicely researched! @8:11 LOL 😀
As long as it took (and it did take forever), I think London got the best outcome in the end. Patience is a virtue as they say.
I think the Jubilee Line Extension's connection with the existing Jubilee Line was a bit of a bodge tbh...
I want to go from "Isle of Dogs" to "Barking Street."
4:44 - What happens on this sharp curve? Do only the end doors open, or is it an Olympic event?
I love Sunday Jago videos!
I used to live midway between Charlton and Westcombe Park so such a development would have been excellent for my commuting. One reason housing was comparatively cheap in that area until the 21st century was the poor rail connection to central London using the North Kent line.
It doesn't help that the North Kent Line has a frequency of 4-6tph, when 10tph would make a lot more sense.
Odd to make Westcombe park a depot when it is constrained by a road AND the Blackwall Tunnel southern approach at one end, and a bridge with a Italianate house/estate owned by Jools Holland at the other. He'd have kicked up a hootenay.
I imagine they would make the Angerstein Triangle (currently the Met Police car pound) a depot but it's not that big. At least Maze Hill had a disused third platform, Westcombe Park doesn't even have that.
Curious where the Parkway would have gone, probably by what is now the IKEA I imagine.
And no footage of Westombe Park by @Jago Hazzard? He'll have to have a fresh trip down - just a pity trains there are so infrequent thanks to the cuts.
@@JonathanRichardsonUK
My guess is that terminating the line at Wescombe Park (presumably because that was the nearest Rail Station to Greenwich Parkway) was yet another example of why Olympia & York didn't have a clue when it came to Transport Planning, as well as the fact they wanted to do the project on the cheap.
That's why only Governments have the money & strategic sense to actually build Transport Networks. Something that was the case both in the Victorian Era & Now.
Regardless, if this line was ever built, I wonder how it would have affected any project to build the Millennium Dome.
Another very interesting video! I always suspected that there was something suspicious about the change from the "Fleet Line as planned and the Jubilee Line as constructed. The former would have been far more useful to existing regular tube users, relieving overcrowding on the District Line, connecting Fenchurch street stationdirectly to the tube network and a tube station in the Ludgate Hill area of the City where there are no tube stations and the possible extension to the public transport desert of Thamesmead. I always wondered if the Jubilee line was built simply to transport financial services and banking employees from Waterloo, where their commuter trains arrived from the leafy suburbs of Surrey and south west London direct to their new offices in Canary Wharf and sod any benefit a new tube line could bring to Londoners and existing commuters travelling on overcrowded trains on other routes. Seems I was right. Well it was the 1980s and Thatcher's Britain! Where money and business interests trumped improving public services.The abandoning of most of the nearly new Charing Cross station was a waste of money too
I suspect you had to do some /serious/ digging to get this one together. Brill. Have you ever thought of putting your stuff together as something more durable like a book or perhaps clay tablets?
Great vid Jago 👍
This brings back memories for me, I was working at WS Atkins when the O&Y rampage across Docklands was happening, it was a real kick in the proverbials when they went under and a lot of Work was lost (Not to mention Money)
Extra points for including an elephant at the right time for the script.
Great video Jago
What did Olympia and York get back for investing £400m in someone else's line though? Apart from being able to choose Waterloo over Charing Cross that is.
Boo hoo! No train service to Thamesmead! How are those poor Droogies going to get to the Korova Milkbar and listen to The Heaven Seventeen! Shame, O my brothers!
There's hope for the Bakerloo line extension, yet!
A neat summing up as always.
What a fascinating "might-have-been". With the Elizabeth Line now fully open in 2023 (thereby uplifting London rail capacity by 10% with a genuine main line right under London), maybe we ended up with an even better outcome, just 30 years later than might have been? Thanks for creating this video.
The irony that Thatcher's 3rd parliament turned down the W&G proposal for the risks of privately built and operated.
Then the railways were largely privatised between the JLE being confirmed and finished. 😂
What a ‘Capital’ video, old chap! 👏🏽
if memory serves, Abbey Wood was the nearest railways station to Thamesmead- and where has Crossrail gone to? when it would have been far better to extend/share the line to Dartford
8:55 Or would it have gained support from a transport businessman from Chicago?
Presumably the Westcombe Park depot was planned to go on the Angerstein Triangle? Hmm. Still owned by Network Rail, I think
7:45 _"...and the bits to Greenwich and Thamesmead were lopped off."_
Probably around a quarter past ten on the first day of planning.
I clicked on this expecting some ultra-rich Victorian nobleman's provate project. It was quite fascinating to find it was an 80s corporate proposal.
yeah and another what if,and just out side billingsgate market entrance there is a set of traffic lights,many lights therewhich at one time was at a junction.
Uk has turned simple transport infrastructure into monumental prestige projects with astronomical costs, creating a vicious circle of difficulty and barriers. We should see these things as simple, everyday projects with no need for monumental cutting-edge big-name architecture and prestige high profile and just get on and build them simply, like they do in Spain or in Turkey.
Good thing this wasn't built. No one wants the Daleks getting access to the underground. (Yes, I know, the Jubilee line extension, but that was only invaded by stormtroopers and I don't rate them.)
I had to laugh, when you said Bakerloo extension, yes in the year 2199 or after matter transportation is invented . Regards JH
As an ex LT employee (working on Victoria Line design) I found this video very interesting.
I'm early Great video Jago
Interesting - but what if - we will never know!!! 😉🚂🚂🚂
Good video and good questions!
'Too big to fail' and 'Too small to succeed' feel like that 'i before e except after c' rule that people keep finding exceptions to🤔
Such good info. Thanks.
Starnge they didn't extend the Bakerloo to the Isle of Dogs instead, given that it already served Waterloo
And, you are the bigness to my smallness. Thanks to you, I can now speak in erudite manner with The Great Tubers--that is if I ever get to England. ❤
A line between Greenwich and Waterloo could've been useful the other week