Interesting analysis, I think one of the big appeals of Marvel Rivals is what you describe in the video about how to strike a balance between tank, DPS, and support. Since Marvel Rivals is a brand-new game, its developers are likely under less pressure to make significant modifications that might offend players or spark backlash than Overwatch, which has been around for a long time. This gives Marvel Rivals a solid start and competitive against Overwatch, people prefer new stuff! Would be cool to see you making an analysis between these hero shooters / MOBA about PvP balancing, teamwork and symmetrical / asymmetrical designs. My recommended list of games to try out and analyse, based on your channel history: Apex Legends, Valorant, Overwatch, Team Fortress 2, Marvel Rivals, Heroes of the Storm, Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare 2
Damn, I'm getting homework? XD I absolutely agree! Rivals had the unique opportunity to show up and do what it thinks Overwatch is failing to do, and while I still think there's a bit of a "New and Shiny" phase going on it absolutely feels like a fresh take on familiar concepts. I've been excitedly theory crafting what some of my favorite Marvel Heroes' Kits would look like among my friends. Rivals has a lot of potential, especially if they maintain a philosophy that "everyone can be busted and do they're own thing", something I think Overwatch would struggle to achieve nowadays and would be better off abandoning for a more dedicated team-heavy philosophy. A deeper analysis would not be a bad idea, comparing different Hero-type games and their approaches... what makes a Hero in these different games, what makes their kit, what promotes team-play or solo-play, etc. I'd need more experience with Valorant and PvZ to begin with though, but we'll see! Thank you for the comment!!!
Highly doubt they will but I greatly appreciate the sentiment~ I'd have to go hit the lotto if even someone like Flats or YourOverwatch bothered with it lol.
yes but no. You are mostly right but having 1 tank is fundementally flawed. If I go hard on hog and they swap ana mauga bastion I have 0 fun. In 6v6 my sigma duo could make it possible for me to play whatever into that comp. 5v5 is fundementally broken because the tanks cant make up for eachothers weaknesses unlike in 6v6. If they added ram during double shield in ow1 we could have had an awesome alternate timeline. Every competitive or quickplay game the tanks get endlessly counterswapped. Forcing 5v5 will never work with 1 tank. I really enjoyed ow1 at the end of its life. I just want that with continued updates. Ow2 is literally worse in every way. Taking is worse. And dps / support is also worse. IF there is a good widow in the lobby and your tank dives her. You will get run over by their tank. Because there is no 2nd tank to peel anymore. So tanking is worse. Support is worse. Widow is more oppressive. The role passives are dumb because not every character benefits as much. Keeping it at hero specific passives is way better like in ow1. I think a lot of us only keep playing ow because there is nothing else out there that fills this niche. Because while everything has been made worse with ow2, the core shooting mechanics and the game engine still feel very great. And it is hard to learn a new game aswell. We got marvel now but the third person camera and other stuff make it too different for a lot of ow diehards to abandon ow. Hopefully having some competition will wake up the ow team. Because they have been asleep since 2019
It just felt so counterintuitive. They removed shields, ccs and made the game brawlier which would have been amazing with 6v6. They also added amazing new role passives and just a plethora of changes that made the game better but then... Removed a whole person from each team. And not only they removed the role that is known to essentially do the most for the team. It just felt so useless. Your description also alludes to another major problem in gaming currently, people just echo chamber the "pro" opinions on the game state. No one says what's fun, no one says what's more enjoyable everyone is just aiming to seem smart and begging for game "balance" when in reality only like the top 2% of players are professional. All the people who complain about balance are usually bronze-plat players just repeating what flats, fitzy, stylosa or whatever other ow creators say. It's sad. For gaming to be fun again balance has to stop being a focal point especially when it's to balance for the top 2-5% of the player base.
I absolutely do not care about pros think are good or not good for the game. This is my Average Player's perspective. I couldn't give a damn what Flats thinks is healthy for the game, I hate high movement and don't find it fun. I love characters with hyper-niche kits and unique utility. I think that's more fun and healthy. I think it'd be fun if Tanks were, well, traditional Tanks, Damage Heroes did the major elim job, and Supports had kits around adding new advantages/disadvantages that don't always have to revolve around healing. That's my idea of fun, and not because I think the pros would like it. Hell I want Lucio/Juno/Mercy/and Genji to all be nerfed because I don't find fighting them very fun at all. I am *not* smart, do *not* give me that much credit lol.
they created problems by adding things like the dps passive and solved it with another problem by giga buffing tanks, if you look back to s1 and s2 of ow2 it was actually fine all they needed to do was just nerf sojourns railgun damage and tune roadhog and make everyone have more range globally so they can actually challenge widowmaker, the issue with tanks just being big dps tho is unchangeable in 5v5.
lets not forget the endless counterswapping with 5v5, today I got a 4k on hog and they respawn as ana mauga bastion zen..... 1 tank is fundementally flawed and has no benefit besides quequetimes.
5v5 probably can't work with a traditional tank that just takes space. We see this play out with rein when his numbers are pumped enough or the meta doesn't favor him for a few seasons. Whether it be his shatter being tweaked or his armor being lowered, if his numbers aren't high enough we he simply gets either ignored or just run over by a more meta tank. Hell we can even see this with Ball. His denial of high ground and general disruption just isn't enough in 5v5, they've buffed him like crazy since release of OW2 and he still hasn't ever touched high playability. Tanks taking space isn't enough because their is only one of them. They cant be everywhere on the map now, meaning a tank taking space from the other tank is still susceptible to flanks from the dps and support cast. There isn't any reasonable way to fix this on the tanks end since they rely on their supports and DPS to cover the flanks. As such instead of just forcing the tanks to look at each other with small amounts of damage.
I don't mean for Tanks to *just* be about Space, but I feel it should be more integral to their kits instead of damage dealing. Rein is quite dangerous if you don't respect him! But, with the current Big DPS design philosophy, he looks incredibly weak since other Tanks like Dva or even JQ can go around him and are hyper lethal. But at the same time, even a more (what I could consider) balanced setup would still have Rein struggle with Dive Tanks. That would simply be how things go. Dives get around Anchors, but Anchors can hold out against Brawlers if they engage right. There still being flanks is exactly why 1 Tank in 5v5 is preferrable. In my experience with 6v6 there was always an issue of there being a Tank for every angle, it was hard to get anything done as DPS and Supports were stuck healing or needing a kit that heals a lot while damaging, getting us Damage-Supports we have now. Relying on Damage and Supports to cover flanks is *exactly* what I'm trying to say *should* be the gameplay, at least paired with an Anchor. Everyone has a Role. I don't think Tanks will, or should, be face-to-face at all times, and I'm not saying they all need sub-average damage. Just not Damage hero numbers. Tanks should be focused on denying the enemy DPS and enabling their own, not dealing Damage on their own (certain Tanks not included; Maug, Hog, etc., my point on Offensive Defense.), Damage should be pushing back flanks and/or eliminating the enemy Supports so they fold easier, and Supports should be enabling their team or disabling the enemy's plays with their utility and healing. Too much damage potential on the other roles often pushes Damage to a minor role, and throws this intended synergy out of wack.
@@darugosuenyo Takes on how meta DVA and Rein are aside, the issue is you are describing exactly how tanks play right now. They punish dps and support players that are out of position and in general need to get close to deal damage which is what they've always done. In addition, the immortalities and burst heals introduced in the game since OW1 have gotten way more prevalent, giving squishies abilities to fight off the increased tank lethality. I don't even know what you mean by damage hero numbers. Some supports lay down as much or more damage than some dps. Yeah, hitting all your bursts on DVA would give her insane value and crazy dps, but no one does and no one can. Making tanks just flat out do less damage is a boring fix to a problem that isn't even there. Their core identity is still taking space and enabling their DPS to get kills, while looking to disrupt the enemy backline and get kills on their own, which is the exact same thing they did in OW1. Without the damage values like they are on support, they'd get rolled by DPS even more than they sometimes do now and honestly the same goes for tanks. Again, tanks don't have the ability to counter flanks on their own anymore, unless their is two or more hero's flanking them, they lose if they go to watch the flank. They have to play their own position and their own angles if they want to do well. Tanking isn't the same and its a matter of 5v5 not how much damage they do. In 5v5 playmaking isn't limited to one role, in fact I'd say right now DPS have the most play making ability with the strength of heroes like ashe, widow, pharah, soujorn and some others. As you get higher in skill each role tends to provide equal value and matter the same amount.
Interesting analysis, I think one of the big appeals of Marvel Rivals is what you describe in the video about how to strike a balance between tank, DPS, and support. Since Marvel Rivals is a brand-new game, its developers are likely under less pressure to make significant modifications that might offend players or spark backlash than Overwatch, which has been around for a long time. This gives Marvel Rivals a solid start and competitive against Overwatch, people prefer new stuff! Would be cool to see you making an analysis between these hero shooters / MOBA about PvP balancing, teamwork and symmetrical / asymmetrical designs. My recommended list of games to try out and analyse, based on your channel history: Apex Legends, Valorant, Overwatch, Team Fortress 2, Marvel Rivals, Heroes of the Storm, Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare 2
Damn, I'm getting homework? XD
I absolutely agree! Rivals had the unique opportunity to show up and do what it thinks Overwatch is failing to do, and while I still think there's a bit of a "New and Shiny" phase going on it absolutely feels like a fresh take on familiar concepts. I've been excitedly theory crafting what some of my favorite Marvel Heroes' Kits would look like among my friends. Rivals has a lot of potential, especially if they maintain a philosophy that "everyone can be busted and do they're own thing", something I think Overwatch would struggle to achieve nowadays and would be better off abandoning for a more dedicated team-heavy philosophy.
A deeper analysis would not be a bad idea, comparing different Hero-type games and their approaches... what makes a Hero in these different games, what makes their kit, what promotes team-play or solo-play, etc. I'd need more experience with Valorant and PvZ to begin with though, but we'll see!
Thank you for the comment!!!
This sums up nicely to what's wrong with Overwatch right now. I hope the devs and Aaron see this.
Highly doubt they will but I greatly appreciate the sentiment~ I'd have to go hit the lotto if even someone like Flats or YourOverwatch bothered with it lol.
yes but no. You are mostly right but having 1 tank is fundementally flawed. If I go hard on hog and they swap ana mauga bastion I have 0 fun. In 6v6 my sigma duo could make it possible for me to play whatever into that comp. 5v5 is fundementally broken because the tanks cant make up for eachothers weaknesses unlike in 6v6. If they added ram during double shield in ow1 we could have had an awesome alternate timeline.
Every competitive or quickplay game the tanks get endlessly counterswapped. Forcing 5v5 will never work with 1 tank. I really enjoyed ow1 at the end of its life. I just want that with continued updates. Ow2 is literally worse in every way. Taking is worse. And dps / support is also worse. IF there is a good widow in the lobby and your tank dives her. You will get run over by their tank. Because there is no 2nd tank to peel anymore. So tanking is worse. Support is worse. Widow is more oppressive. The role passives are dumb because not every character benefits as much. Keeping it at hero specific passives is way better like in ow1.
I think a lot of us only keep playing ow because there is nothing else out there that fills this niche. Because while everything has been made worse with ow2, the core shooting mechanics and the game engine still feel very great. And it is hard to learn a new game aswell. We got marvel now but the third person camera and other stuff make it too different for a lot of ow diehards to abandon ow. Hopefully having some competition will wake up the ow team. Because they have been asleep since 2019
It just felt so counterintuitive. They removed shields, ccs and made the game brawlier which would have been amazing with 6v6. They also added amazing new role passives and just a plethora of changes that made the game better but then... Removed a whole person from each team. And not only they removed the role that is known to essentially do the most for the team. It just felt so useless. Your description also alludes to another major problem in gaming currently, people just echo chamber the "pro" opinions on the game state. No one says what's fun, no one says what's more enjoyable everyone is just aiming to seem smart and begging for game "balance" when in reality only like the top 2% of players are professional. All the people who complain about balance are usually bronze-plat players just repeating what flats, fitzy, stylosa or whatever other ow creators say. It's sad. For gaming to be fun again balance has to stop being a focal point especially when it's to balance for the top 2-5% of the player base.
I absolutely do not care about pros think are good or not good for the game. This is my Average Player's perspective. I couldn't give a damn what Flats thinks is healthy for the game, I hate high movement and don't find it fun. I love characters with hyper-niche kits and unique utility. I think that's more fun and healthy. I think it'd be fun if Tanks were, well, traditional Tanks, Damage Heroes did the major elim job, and Supports had kits around adding new advantages/disadvantages that don't always have to revolve around healing. That's my idea of fun, and not because I think the pros would like it. Hell I want Lucio/Juno/Mercy/and Genji to all be nerfed because I don't find fighting them very fun at all.
I am *not* smart, do *not* give me that much credit lol.
@@darugosuenyo Dude i was agreeing with u lol. i was saying the average players perspective of fun should be the goal lol
Listen. Text lacks tone, okay? XD
But yes, Overwatch devs would do wonders if they started balancing with fun and interesting in mind.
they created problems by adding things like the dps passive and solved it with another problem by giga buffing tanks, if you look back to s1 and s2 of ow2 it was actually fine all they needed to do was just nerf sojourns railgun damage and tune roadhog and make everyone have more range globally so they can actually challenge widowmaker, the issue with tanks just being big dps tho is unchangeable in 5v5.
lets not forget the endless counterswapping with 5v5, today I got a 4k on hog and they respawn as ana mauga bastion zen..... 1 tank is fundementally flawed and has no benefit besides quequetimes.
5v5 probably can't work with a traditional tank that just takes space. We see this play out with rein when his numbers are pumped enough or the meta doesn't favor him for a few seasons. Whether it be his shatter being tweaked or his armor being lowered, if his numbers aren't high enough we he simply gets either ignored or just run over by a more meta tank. Hell we can even see this with Ball. His denial of high ground and general disruption just isn't enough in 5v5, they've buffed him like crazy since release of OW2 and he still hasn't ever touched high playability.
Tanks taking space isn't enough because their is only one of them. They cant be everywhere on the map now, meaning a tank taking space from the other tank is still susceptible to flanks from the dps and support cast. There isn't any reasonable way to fix this on the tanks end since they rely on their supports and DPS to cover the flanks. As such instead of just forcing the tanks to look at each other with small amounts of damage.
I don't mean for Tanks to *just* be about Space, but I feel it should be more integral to their kits instead of damage dealing. Rein is quite dangerous if you don't respect him! But, with the current Big DPS design philosophy, he looks incredibly weak since other Tanks like Dva or even JQ can go around him and are hyper lethal. But at the same time, even a more (what I could consider) balanced setup would still have Rein struggle with Dive Tanks. That would simply be how things go. Dives get around Anchors, but Anchors can hold out against Brawlers if they engage right.
There still being flanks is exactly why 1 Tank in 5v5 is preferrable. In my experience with 6v6 there was always an issue of there being a Tank for every angle, it was hard to get anything done as DPS and Supports were stuck healing or needing a kit that heals a lot while damaging, getting us Damage-Supports we have now. Relying on Damage and Supports to cover flanks is *exactly* what I'm trying to say *should* be the gameplay, at least paired with an Anchor. Everyone has a Role.
I don't think Tanks will, or should, be face-to-face at all times, and I'm not saying they all need sub-average damage. Just not Damage hero numbers. Tanks should be focused on denying the enemy DPS and enabling their own, not dealing Damage on their own (certain Tanks not included; Maug, Hog, etc., my point on Offensive Defense.), Damage should be pushing back flanks and/or eliminating the enemy Supports so they fold easier, and Supports should be enabling their team or disabling the enemy's plays with their utility and healing. Too much damage potential on the other roles often pushes Damage to a minor role, and throws this intended synergy out of wack.
@@darugosuenyo Takes on how meta DVA and Rein are aside, the issue is you are describing exactly how tanks play right now. They punish dps and support players that are out of position and in general need to get close to deal damage which is what they've always done. In addition, the immortalities and burst heals introduced in the game since OW1 have gotten way more prevalent, giving squishies abilities to fight off the increased tank lethality.
I don't even know what you mean by damage hero numbers. Some supports lay down as much or more damage than some dps. Yeah, hitting all your bursts on DVA would give her insane value and crazy dps, but no one does and no one can. Making tanks just flat out do less damage is a boring fix to a problem that isn't even there. Their core identity is still taking space and enabling their DPS to get kills, while looking to disrupt the enemy backline and get kills on their own, which is the exact same thing they did in OW1. Without the damage values like they are on support, they'd get rolled by DPS even more than they sometimes do now and honestly the same goes for tanks.
Again, tanks don't have the ability to counter flanks on their own anymore, unless their is two or more hero's flanking them, they lose if they go to watch the flank. They have to play their own position and their own angles if they want to do well. Tanking isn't the same and its a matter of 5v5 not how much damage they do.
In 5v5 playmaking isn't limited to one role, in fact I'd say right now DPS have the most play making ability with the strength of heroes like ashe, widow, pharah, soujorn and some others. As you get higher in skill each role tends to provide equal value and matter the same amount.
Bro thought he was gonna hide this video from me.
It was scheduled, forgot to say. Hush up.