I recently saw a photo of a model of HMS A13, while I’m familiar with why future submarines would drop this sort of streamlined design, I’m never the less curious with what the potential underwater speed characteristics of submarines from ww1-ww2 could have been if they had maintained the such dedicated designs.
I have a two part question about Jackie Fisher. What do you think was his best idea that he never managed to push through? And conversely, what do you think was his worst idea that was adopted/built?
The Town class is probably one of my favourite cruiser designs. They saw a lot of action, took various kickings but somehow seemed to be able to survive what should have been fatal damage. And Edinburgh especially was certainly made of some kind of adamantium. Half her stern missing, jury-rigged power, comms and radar systems, a massive hole in one side... It's no surprise the German destroyers thought they were getting an easy kill, and yet she still managed to fire accurately is impressive as heck, her crew certainly knew their business. The fact she didn't immediately split in two when the last German torpedo hit her, and then stubbornly refused to sink after her crew had been evacuated is, for me, a huge testament to her construction. Like Glowworm, Edinburgh's last stand is in the highest, proudest traditions of the Royal Navy, and yet gets so little celebration, all while we Brits evangelise the US Navy's own heroism during WWII. It saddens me that those heroic sailors don't get the recognition they richly deserve.
I have to agree with you, sir. By stats and capabilities, they were ripe for a royal ass kicking. Yet circumstances, good damage control, and some downright genius level ingenuity changed the entire outcome (except for the loss of EDINBURGH, of course). In my youth, I was privileged to meet and spend some time on liberty with RN sailors from HMS EURALYS and HMS DIOMEDE while in South Africa. A truly great bunch of guys! They even gave us a tour and detailed (if brief) look at life on a Royal Navy frigate. This, combined with my own reading over the years, has shown me that the UK contributions to the Allied efforts deserve much more representation in the history of that war.
Quite a few Town class cruisers were not able to survive "various kickings." HMS Southampton, Manchester, Gloucester, Edinburgh. 4 out of 10 Ships completed.
They recovered the ships bell and a wooden sign from one of the small boats that is next to the ship on the seabed. I was on board the diving support vessel during the 2nd salvage in '86 ,fresh from school this was quite exciting because you could follow the works via the divers and rov's camera's. The wood had to be kept under water, i wonder if they could preserve it well enough to display it?
@@jeromevaneersel8491I don't know what happened to the concrete wooden sign here, but in general, yes, they can preserve it :) It needs to be kept under water initially, so as to not disturb it, dry out and fall apart, but preservation specialists can do some fancy tricks where - _I think_ - they impregnate the wood with something fancy to replace the water in it? We have a bunch of Viking ships preserved from where they'd been sunk in Roskilde fjord, and they're now on display in the Viking Ship Museum ;)
On HMS Forrester a relative of mine took charge after the Captain was hit, his name was Jack Bitmead and he went on to become a full Captain in the Royal Navy and in the 1960 was for a time an equerry to the Queen.
Seemed to be a solid, cool officer at all levels. From the CV given, it seemed that he reasonably should have expected to hoist his flag. Sounds like a fellow with the gift of command.
And victory to the Imperium of Man, but of course, mechanics have recited litanies to the machine spirit since nuts were four sided. The Imperium's evolution merely codified and formalized the natural relationship. :)
My maternal grandfather, Lieut (Eng) V.G.Manfield was one of the 2 officers lost on board Edinburgh. It moves me almost to tears to hear of the superb efficiency not just of Edinburgh's officers and crew but also the efforts of the destroyers Foresight & Forester as well as the conspicuous gallantry of the 5 minesweepers in facing down a massively superior German force in the shape of Z 23, Z 24 & Z 25- remember each minesweeper had only a single 4" gun. I am greatly in your debt for this detailed study of this magnificent ship and the combination of factors (not least exceptionally bad luck) that led to her loss; my heartfelt thanks Drac.
During the American war of independence the French sent a first rate warship to help the yanks. It fell upon a British friggate which continuously changed tack yet constantly fired upon the much larger and faster frenchman. Although the French ship of the line won the exchange, it was put out of action in harbour for repairs for 6 months. Thus in the encounter the French navy suffered in real terms a greater loss than the British. Thus Nelson decreeing that "an englishman can do no wrong if he attacks the enemy". That letting the enemy know that even if it wins, it will still suffer disproportionatly.
@@dogefort8410 Unfortunatly it is a lesson we can all to easily forget. One can clearly anounce to a foe that you will probably win, but you will regret ever thinking of joining this fight. A lesson which serves me to this day.
Curious fact for you, Admiral Stuart Bonham-Carter is a distant relative of the superb actress Helena Bonham-Carter; she is perhaps best known for portraying the lunatic Bellatrix Lastrange in the Harry Potter films.
I do agree with the sentiment, Bonham Carter should have taken action assuming the contact was real rather than false, especially given the nature of the cargo and the weather. That being said those ghost contacts were a very real thing, and still are in both the Arctic and Antarctic. So I can understand why he may have thought as he did even if I do not agree with him. Frankly no one would have blamed him had he returned to the convoy and the safety of the destroyer escorts considering his cargo and the circumstances. Nothing was being given away information wise as the Germans already knew where the convoy was, and this is very much one of those times where discretion was definitely the better part of valour.... Had he done so the RN would likely not have lost 56 sailors, and one of their extremely valuable large light cruisers.... That's the frustrating thing about the loss of the Edinburgh, while her final action was heroic, it should never have occurred. Bonham Carter essentially ensured the loss not only of 56 RN Sailors, but of one of the RN's limited number of extremely valuable large light cruisers, arguably one of the two finest such in the RN....
Marsal Foch when told on a number of accasions by aerial recon of thousands of german armour and legions of soldiers amassed in the Arden forrests, he too succumed to the folly of guesswork. Conversley reports of no opposition at Salerno were again dashed on the roulette table of operational planning. Henve the phrase 'a lucky general is better than a great general'.
Said it once and saying it again, thanks for returning to narrating the stories of the sailors with your own voice, it genuinely makes the videos better! (also it's made it far easier to binge your work once more with a clean conscience)
What a bloody story! I knew a bit about the Murmansk convoys (one of my grandfathers was in destroyers for a while there) but this is something else. l spent 30 years in the Australian navy and for the life of me, l cannot conceive of fighting at sea in Arctic conditions. These blokes, both merchant and fighting navy types, who did this stuff are nothing less than heroes to a man. Bless 'em all and rest all of their souls, friend and foe.
Wow. As a former US Navy officer this is a story that all sailors, particularly British sailors should learn about. The outstanding bravery of these British sailors and sea officers is inspiring to all that go to sea as crews of men of war. I salute all crew members of not just the men of HMS Edinburgh, but all the seamen of the British navy. Nelson would have been proud. All of England should be as well. Their courage and self sacrifice inspires all those that go to sea in a warship.
As a Dane, and thus neutral; the Royal Navy has the consistently finest fighting tradition of all, but during WW2 the US Navy forged it's own equally fine, if not as ancient.
Royal Navy cruisers are rapidly becoming some of my favorite vessels to learn about from you. I love their monolithic look and their vastly different operational requirements all over the globe.
Plus some of the best navy stores seem to come from the ROYAL NAVY. Especially when it just happens like no scoping a submarine while it's under the water
Have you seen Calum’s video on it? He interviewed Dougie in it too, and let’s be honest those 5 bars weren’t going to exactly be difficult to find! The issue of course though being illegal salvage to grab them
A great deal of gold was salvaged from a cruiser that had hit a mine in the North Sea, I can't remember the name of the vessel but I think it was carrying 20 million pounds worth.
@@tobygeorgeharribo The standard comment on sat divers was they need three of every item. One to use, one to lose and one to take home. Very resourceful people.
That was just an infinitesimal piece of a globe spanning war, but what a marvelous story of courage, audacity, and ferocious commitment to duty. Truly epic, after adding weather and sea conditions to the mix I was vaguely aware of the loss of Edinburgh and the gold cargo, but now aware of the details, all I can say is WOW! Thanks Drach for the knowledge!
Having watched rather a lot of these videos, it seems to me that RN engagements during WWII might best be described as "Any time the enemy is within range, no matter what boat I'm driving, I'm going to try to sink it", ie a USS Johnston, but for the entirety of the RN. Sometimes the tactic worked, other times (like here) it very nearly worked, and at others it really didn't work at all. But no matter the situation, one thing is abundantly clear; those that manned ANY ship at sea under the RN, and any merchant ship being protected by the RN were AL, to a man, stupefyingly brave. I have a pretty active imagination, yet I am incapable of understanding this level of bravery. So I salute every single officer, and every single person who ever served on any of these ships.
Well, they court martialed and shot an Admiral for being cautious once and since then "engage the enemy more closely" has generally been the unofficial motto.
There is a tenet in the RN. It goes something like "no captain can be censured for hazarding his ship in the face of the enemy". It dates from pre-Napoleonic times I think and was brought in to as an effort to make the RN more aggressive. It worked! Nelson sent a signal before Trafalgar stating “No Captain can do very wrong if he places his Ship alongside that of an Enemy”.
@@rharvey751 Oh, absolutely, and I am well aware of all this. But there is a whole lot of difference between knowing about it and seeing it being repeated, time and again, and the bloody minded determination of all the crew members to continue the tradition. It reminds me of the time HMNZS (?) Kiwi and another boat, neither of which were much more than patrol boats, managed to sink an IJN submarine that displaced as much as the two boats combined. I think that the thing that impresses me is that this was rarely individual bravery, but the combin ed bravery that pushed crew members to fight on for their crew mates.
I've followed your channel since the early days with a computerized voice doing the narration, and I can honestly say that yours is one of the few that continues to improve as it goes. Keep up the great work!
This was one of the most touching and emotional episodes I encountered on your channel. Thank you for the experience. At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them
To sink in any sea is quite disturbing but to sink in the northern arctic sea, Is just horrifying, Those conditions are just incomprehensible to someone like me who has grown up in tropical northern Australia. I have to take my hat off to all that served on all sides in those extreme conditions👍
Decades ago I sailed above the Arctic Circle in February. I remember that steel gray water, and how absolutely blue it was next to the ship's hull when you looked straight down into it. I also remember thinking that if were to foolishly fall overboard I was almost certainly going to cash in my chips, even if the lookouts spotted me immediately. When the wind kicked up the spray on your face was crazy cold. It was beautiful in a brutal kind of way, actually.
I lived in Greenland for three years. Right next to the Baffin Bay with winds reaching hurricane speed about once or twice a month from October to May. It gets cold up there in the Arctic. Really cold.
My goodness man, that was amazing! I have watched all of your videos over the years and this one showed the the true 'in the now' experience of naval battle. So many similar experiences of WW2 are as real as this, but are forgotten, as they are not written down...Courageous men, each and every one of them. Lest we forget!
Listening to your video triggered a memory in my brain. I read in International Warships Review magazine about the diving and salvaging for the gold in 1981. The careful studying of HMS Belfast internal compartments. Being careful not to cut where fuel or left over ammunition would be. The divers had left a camera and the last 5 gold bars near the cut out hole. Some many years later when they went to go retrieve both items. They were missing, suspecting Soviets had nabbed them. I have spent considerable part of my evening trying to find the issue but no luck. I swear not making this up and will continue trying to find which monthly issue it was.
That's one of those books that I first read as a teen and keep going back to every decade or so. And I always want to cry when a rating offers the captain a fresh handkerchief because the captain's was, well...
Drach, You are continuously getting better in your videos. This ship was amazing as was the crew. Crossed the Northern Atlantic aboard a troop transport, seas were huge just glad it wasn't colder. This experience really heightened watching this video. The ship was the SS Upshur, and why it was so far north has remained a question for 60 years. The other ships and their crews were awe-inspiring. Keep wondering how I would perform in such circumstances. But these crews make my heart pound. What thought process you must go through while making these videos. Thanks for all your efforts.
I think it was back in the late 90's my local PBS station ran a documentary on the salvage of the gold that the Edinburgh was carrying. It covered the formation of the salvage team, all of who were some of the very best divers in the world and the technology that they would use in this attempt. It explained how they had the Belfast as their real-life model to examine and plan their attempt to recover the cargo. A problem was they had various reports from the ships present as to where the Edinburgh had sunk. They finally decided that they would use the Edinburgh's own navigator's report to start, as to the ships' position, as he had left the ship with his charts and navigation log. They sent a submersible down for a look and, sure enough, found the ship exactly where he said it would be. Having done a little training on navigation for my sailing days a very long time ago, (hello "American Practical Navigator" and goodbye), I sat there with a wave emotion washing over me, as they confirmed the wreck really was the Edinburgh, comparing various aspects of the wreck that they saw, with pictures from the Belfast. The recovery of the gold to me was anticlimactic, as I thought of the skillful work of that navigator, during a running battle in terrible weather, north of the Arctic Circle, on a heavily damaged ship.
Having been born in Australia and effectively raised by a WW2 serving Sailor (my grandad, Sailmaker, HMS Colombo, HMS Slinger), that royal naval personnel considered a comment "unprintable" I find.. Rather Impressive.
"What about the gold?" ... Well , whatever was said, (if said today) would probably lead to serious criminal charges being handed out , to everyone who was within eyesight of the ship !! I would pay real money to know what an English sailor thought was too harsh for common eyes !!
@@chrismaverick9828 most likely a pretty graphic description of where to put one or more goldbars, including the physical mechanics how to get them inthere..
Incredible storytelling about the HMS Edinburgh's final stand! Your attention to detail and historical context really bring this moment to life. Great work!
As a lad I seldom saw snow or freezing water. As an adult, once got emursed in freezing water and once ensured -0 weather...almost killed me. Hard to fathom sea warfare in those conditions. Excellent video.
Well done! Very, very detailed, facts only. And a great amount of photos, partially unknown at least for me! 👍 Please keep up this level, you made it to be one of my favourite naval war channels with only two videos. ☺
Fine job Drach. I'm sitting here in Edinburgh with a model of HMS Edinburgh on the mantelpiece. FYI any photos of Edinburgh without AA guns on her forward turret are during fitting out and trials. 2 Oerlikons is The Mediterranean. 1 Oerlikon and camouflage is the Arctic, 1942.
Sailors are sailors and the sea is the enemy of them all. Especially in the Arctic. I lived in Greenland for three years; no descriptions can prepare you for the extreme conditions in the Arctic.
31:00 re-enforces something ive come to realize in learning about the various crews aboard, Fire Control Techs are arguably some of the smartest people aboard warships
Another entertaining story, well told, and a fine example of a largely out gunned force, pooling their resources at critical moments, to ultimately score a strategic victory.
Yet another brilliant episode!! Alternating from laughing my head off to getting rather emotional. Superbly narrated as always, and thouroughly entertaining!! Visiting Belfast is on my bucket list for next year.
I like to think when the German destroyers showed - Edinburgh lurched out of the snow like she would a pub. Yelled something to the effect of “I didn’t hear no bell” and or ‘Scotland Forever!’, before hurling an absolute haymaker to kick everything off.
Can i just say that I had absolutely no knowledge of naval history, nor any particular interest in the subject. A few years ago I came across Drachinifel, and I now consider your fantastic work to be the very finest channel on RUclips. I've worked my way through a good percentage of the library of videos, and am constantly in eager anticipation of your next upload. I love everything about your videos. Bravo Sir. May you long continue making the world a better place. ❤
That is so weird! I was just looking for a video about this last night before bed and was sad that you didnt have one. I had to watch an off brand version, but im still gonna watch yours anyway still.
Very nicely told and a lovely photo of HMS Bulldog after her conversion to an SRE destroyer, complete with as many Oerlikons as a first-batch Fletcher and the anti-torpedo-boat pompom bow chaser. Very cool. You included the rest of HMS Edinburgh's tale following her sinking - I wonder if you'll follow up and do a bit on what happened next to Rear-Admiral Bonham-Carter, because *he* had a very eventful time of trying to get back to the UK and it involves another fated cruiser whose relationship with torpedoes was... somewhat turbulent. I think it would make a great sequel to this video. Carry on with the good work, Sir!
I could very well be wrong here, but I suspect Bonham-Carter was on board HMS Trinidad which definitely had a one in a million occurence in regards to one of her own torpedoes. I have everything crossed that Drac will post a video on the incident at some point.
LOL! He said "litanies to the machine spirit"... One may think of Warhammer 40K, but I can also say from my early days wrenching on B-52 D's, Mechanics have recited litanies to the machine spirit since nuts were four sided!
Literally just started researching this topic today. Other then edinburgh, tilawa, and garrisoppa. What other vessel's were lost during ww2 with precious metals on board?
I had followed the recovery of the gold, but did not know of how the sinking occurred, your video has now answered that situation, i bet the inquiry asked the captain a few “ questions”.
I saw someone complain recently that Drachinfel is too technical and I'm trying to understand what he means by 'too technical' in regards to testimonials by sailors present in a battle.
In fairness, I'm sure that if you played this video to them, they would thoroughly enjoy it. It is on the opposite extreme of Drach's content to some of his highly technical work, such as the "Naval Engineering - What happens when a shell hits a battleship?" video I watched recently.
Sad fact, that many survivors later boarded HMS Trinidad in Murmansk and died during German air attack on the same route. Including for example Czechoslovak airmen newly assigned to RAF, some of them held previously in Soviet internement for some time (and some of them even fought in the Spanish civil war)
Petty Officer Arthur Start was the Father of a school friend who became Best Man at my wedding. They lived in Plymouth not far from my original home until their deaths in the 1990’s. Arthur was a large modest man who only spoke briefly of his experience on Edinburgh however with a solemn tone. He spent time after the war as a steward at HM Naval College Manadon not far from the family home
Hey Drach? Have you ever read “ A Midshipman’s War” it’s an account from the radio operator of one of destroyers present when the Barham “ violently disassembled” that’s my vote
Greetings and Salutations! Thank you Drax for yet another fantastic tale. I always thought the 3rd group of the Town class looked rather odd. The first 2 were more "easy on the eye" but their design was probably better from a damage control perspective. We are indeed fortunate to have the Belfast. Now once again, please do a history of the HMS Ashanti. All the best, Billi.
Kind of curious why the UK chose such a dangerous route for a not unimportant cargo. PQ17 hasnt happen yet, however the route was by no means free of german contest. So why not go with a saver option like sending the gold via a soviet flagged ship to canada.
I actually know someone who was involved with the first dive team to Edinburgh he was a part of the team on support ship and has Many stories from that time.
Great vid Drach (as always) Are you as confused about RN damage control during WW2 as I am? Japanese- always woeful. USN always good. RN brilliant sometimes and awful at others (Ark Royal springs to mind). Am I misreading this? I will, of course, bow to your infinitely greater understanding .
that, is an amazing story. the courage of the crews who manned the Murmansk convoys and their escorts was the height of heroism and self-sacrifice. may those who did not get home then, rest in peace. as well as those who survived and lived to tell their tales, most of whom have now gone to their own graves. Edinburgh, herself, will remain hallowed seabed, until some greedy bright sparks figure there is enough gold and pre-atomic metal to go after that lure, and dives to strip her of whatever they can...
Why did the USSR receive any proceeds from the salvaged gold? I assume they had no legal claim to it, so it was probably just some kind of gesture of goodwill during the Cold War?
Drach has covered this point previously (probably in a drydock Q&A). There was a complex deal between the various governments and insurers. HM treasury would not formally take ownership of all the gold until it was delivered, inspected, assayed, and moved into British vaults. While the gold lay at the bottom of the ocean, 2/3 belonged to USSR and 1/3 to Britain. The obvious concern was that the USSR would retrieve all of it in a clandestine operation, then blame the disappearance on grave-robbers. Hence the British took the initiative, preferring to resolve the situation in a way which ensured that they got paid (even if the Soviets and salvagers would each receive a larger slice of the proceeds).
Pinned post for Q&A :)
I recently saw a photo of a model of HMS A13, while I’m familiar with why future submarines would drop this sort of streamlined design, I’m never the less curious with what the potential underwater speed characteristics of submarines from ww1-ww2 could have been if they had maintained the such dedicated designs.
Which valuables that were lost with a warship are you most personally interested in?
What other vessels besides tilawa, edinburgh, and garisoppa were lost carrying precious metals during ww2?
Hi Drach - what size / scale models do you collect?
I have a two part question about Jackie Fisher.
What do you think was his best idea that he never managed to push through?
And conversely, what do you think was his worst idea that was adopted/built?
>"its alright mate ive got you"
>proceeds to display superhuman strength
>saves sailor's life
>does not elaborate further
>leaves to get others
"Wooohoooohohooooo, Camouflage!"
@@jean-bastienjoly5962 "Things are never quite the way they seem"
The unsung Chad
Some have said that war not only brings out the worst in people, but also provides occasion for the very best as well
I was in thehospital and the other patient in my roo., a retired navy man. He loved the channel and we listened to the episodes eagerly
That’s so cool!
That's is a hellava homerun in the luck dept if all who have no choice with the other Pesce and nice of u to share and introduce drac
@@andrewjones7126 I hope you both recover well & are quickly dismissed from hospital in short order & in good health! Thanks for sharing.
I hope you both recover quickly. You have discovered hours upon hours of quality content. Enjoy.
❤
The Town class is probably one of my favourite cruiser designs. They saw a lot of action, took various kickings but somehow seemed to be able to survive what should have been fatal damage.
And Edinburgh especially was certainly made of some kind of adamantium. Half her stern missing, jury-rigged power, comms and radar systems, a massive hole in one side... It's no surprise the German destroyers thought they were getting an easy kill, and yet she still managed to fire accurately is impressive as heck, her crew certainly knew their business.
The fact she didn't immediately split in two when the last German torpedo hit her, and then stubbornly refused to sink after her crew had been evacuated is, for me, a huge testament to her construction.
Like Glowworm, Edinburgh's last stand is in the highest, proudest traditions of the Royal Navy, and yet gets so little celebration, all while we Brits evangelise the US Navy's own heroism during WWII. It saddens me that those heroic sailors don't get the recognition they richly deserve.
Not to mention HMS Rawalpindi and HMS Jervis Bay...
I have to agree with you, sir. By stats and capabilities, they were ripe for a royal ass kicking. Yet circumstances, good damage control, and some downright genius level ingenuity changed the entire outcome (except for the loss of EDINBURGH, of course).
In my youth, I was privileged to meet and spend some time on liberty with RN sailors from HMS EURALYS and HMS DIOMEDE while in South Africa. A truly great bunch of guys! They even gave us a tour and detailed (if brief) look at life on a Royal Navy frigate.
This, combined with my own reading over the years, has shown me that the UK contributions to the Allied efforts deserve much more representation in the history of that war.
There are many in the know and all should bear in mind that the RN loses nothing in comparison to any other navy, especially when the chips are down.
@@josephbishop7781 They do get more representation everywhere except the USA.
Quite a few Town class cruisers were not able to survive "various kickings." HMS Southampton, Manchester, Gloucester, Edinburgh. 4 out of 10 Ships completed.
As well as the gold, the divers also brought up the ship's bell - it's now on display in Edinburgh castle as a memorial to the crew.
Seems like the wise old words "Don't put all you eggs in one basket" still need to be underlined and then pointed to, from time to time...
They recovered the ships bell and a wooden sign from one of the small boats that is next to the ship on the seabed. I was on board the diving support vessel during the 2nd salvage in '86 ,fresh from school this was quite exciting because you could follow the works via the divers and rov's camera's. The wood had to be kept under water, i wonder if they could preserve it well enough to display it?
@@jeromevaneersel8491I don't know what happened to the concrete wooden sign here, but in general, yes, they can preserve it :)
It needs to be kept under water initially, so as to not disturb it, dry out and fall apart, but preservation specialists can do some fancy tricks where - _I think_ - they impregnate the wood with something fancy to replace the water in it?
We have a bunch of Viking ships preserved from where they'd been sunk in Roskilde fjord, and they're now on display in the Viking Ship Museum ;)
I feel like they had time to remove some of the gold in the time they spent trying to sink her 😂
@@Zwia. as far as i know the gold was in the munitions store which was already flooded so the gold was inaccessible from the very beginning.
On HMS Forrester a relative of mine took charge after the Captain was hit, his name was Jack Bitmead and he went on to become a full Captain in the Royal Navy and in the 1960 was for a time an equerry to the Queen.
Seemed to be a solid, cool officer at all levels. From the CV given, it seemed that he reasonably should have expected to hoist his flag. Sounds like a fellow with the gift of command.
"....A few choice litanies to the ships machine spirit....." Praise and glory be to the Machine God!!
The Emperor protects
"Pie Iesu Domine"
"dona eis requim"
@@jeromethiel4323 lol! Like the Monty Python And The Holy Grail grenade scene.
And victory to the Imperium of Man, but of course, mechanics have recited litanies to the machine spirit since nuts were four sided. The Imperium's evolution merely codified and formalized the natural relationship. :)
@@oliversmith9200 Indeed. I was praying to the machine spirits today. Luckily they listened, and the equipment is operational again.
My maternal grandfather, Lieut (Eng) V.G.Manfield was one of the 2 officers lost on board Edinburgh. It moves me almost to tears to hear of the superb efficiency not just of Edinburgh's officers and crew but also the efforts of the destroyers Foresight & Forester as well as the conspicuous gallantry of the 5 minesweepers in facing down a massively superior German force in the shape of Z 23, Z 24 & Z 25- remember each minesweeper had only a single 4" gun. I am greatly in your debt for this detailed study of this magnificent ship and the combination of factors (not least exceptionally bad luck) that led to her loss; my heartfelt thanks Drac.
During the American war of independence the French sent a first rate warship to help the yanks. It fell upon a British friggate which continuously changed tack yet constantly fired upon the much larger and faster frenchman. Although the French ship of the line won the exchange, it was put out of action in harbour for repairs for 6 months. Thus in the encounter the French navy suffered in real terms a greater loss than the British. Thus Nelson decreeing that "an englishman can do no wrong if he attacks the enemy". That letting the enemy know that even if it wins, it will still suffer disproportionatly.
@@conormcmenemie5126 Putler forgot this lesson.
Lest we forget
Hate to say it but their initial complacency regarding u boats was tragic.
@@dogefort8410 Unfortunatly it is a lesson we can all to easily forget. One can clearly anounce to a foe that you will probably win, but you will regret ever thinking of joining this fight. A lesson which serves me to this day.
"Sir, we have a firm contact, right ahead!" "Ok. Stand everybody down. Have the bugler sound "cooks to the galley"" FFS.
Curious fact for you, Admiral Stuart Bonham-Carter is a distant relative of the superb actress Helena Bonham-Carter; she is perhaps best known for portraying the lunatic Bellatrix Lastrange in the Harry Potter films.
@@nickjoy8868 The name certainly did not go unnoticed.
The worst ever timing for "tea time".
Can imagine the Admiral slapping the back of the ASDIC operator:
"The healthy humour of an honest Tommy, hahaa"
@@Kr-nv5fo Honest Jack, It's not the army.
The best part about this channel is how I never heard of any of these ships and I still watch with rapt attention.
You're not talking about not knowing Edinburgh, are you?!
@@PrivateMemo He must be a yank
A submarine? In ww2? In the artic? Localized entirely in front of me?
> Yes.
Can I see it?
> There's a blizzard.
Then it must not exist.
I do agree with the sentiment, Bonham Carter should have taken action assuming the contact was real rather than false, especially given the nature of the cargo and the weather.
That being said those ghost contacts were a very real thing, and still are in both the Arctic and Antarctic. So I can understand why he may have thought as he did even if I do not agree with him.
Frankly no one would have blamed him had he returned to the convoy and the safety of the destroyer escorts considering his cargo and the circumstances. Nothing was being given away information wise as the Germans already knew where the convoy was, and this is very much one of those times where discretion was definitely the better part of valour.... Had he done so the RN would likely not have lost 56 sailors, and one of their extremely valuable large light cruisers....
That's the frustrating thing about the loss of the Edinburgh, while her final action was heroic, it should never have occurred. Bonham Carter essentially ensured the loss not only of 56 RN Sailors, but of one of the RN's limited number of extremely valuable large light cruisers, arguably one of the two finest such in the RN....
Anatoly Dyatlov enters the chat: You didn't see a sumarine on the water because it isn't there!!!
Marsal Foch when told on a number of accasions by aerial recon of thousands of german armour and legions of soldiers amassed in the Arden forrests, he too succumed to the folly of guesswork. Conversley reports of no opposition at Salerno were again dashed on the roulette table of operational planning. Henve the phrase 'a lucky general is better than a great general'.
@@alganhar1 But he played cricket really well...
"German submarines in the Arctic? I don't think they exist." - The Dread Pirate Roberts
Said it once and saying it again, thanks for returning to narrating the stories of the sailors with your own voice, it genuinely makes the videos better! (also it's made it far easier to binge your work once more with a clean conscience)
What a bloody story! I knew a bit about the Murmansk convoys (one of my grandfathers was in destroyers for a while there) but this is something else. l spent 30 years in the Australian navy and for the life of me, l cannot conceive of fighting at sea in Arctic conditions. These blokes, both merchant and fighting navy types, who did this stuff are nothing less than heroes to a man.
Bless 'em all and rest all of their souls, friend and foe.
Very well said.
Wow. As a former US Navy officer this is a story that all sailors, particularly British sailors should learn about. The outstanding bravery of these British sailors and sea officers is inspiring to all that go to sea as crews of men of war. I salute all crew members of not just the men of HMS Edinburgh, but all the seamen of the British navy. Nelson would have been proud. All of England should be as well. Their courage and self sacrifice inspires all those that go to sea in a warship.
As a Dane, and thus neutral; the Royal Navy has the consistently finest fighting tradition of all, but during WW2 the US Navy forged it's own equally fine, if not as ancient.
Royal Navy cruisers are rapidly becoming some of my favorite vessels to learn about from you. I love their monolithic look and their vastly different operational requirements all over the globe.
Plus some of the best navy stores seem to come from the ROYAL NAVY. Especially when it just happens like no scoping a submarine while it's under the water
"Tea stores partially submerged" - The absolute HORROR!
Personally, I'm surprised that crew morale survived that particular blow. That it did so speaks volumes.
Cocoa and bully beef butties? And RUM . . .
Having worked with many of the 2W Dive Team and met several of the divers involved I feel confident at least some of the missing bars were recovered.
Have you seen Calum’s video on it? He interviewed Dougie in it too, and let’s be honest those 5 bars weren’t going to exactly be difficult to find! The issue of course though being illegal salvage to grab them
m.ruclips.net/video/GZhugjeT85Q/видео.html
A great deal of gold was salvaged from a cruiser that had hit a mine in the North Sea, I can't remember the name of the vessel but I think it was carrying 20 million pounds worth.
@@tobygeorgeharribo The standard comment on sat divers was they need three of every item. One to use, one to lose and one to take home. Very resourceful people.
That was just an infinitesimal piece of a globe spanning war, but what a marvelous story of courage, audacity, and ferocious commitment to duty. Truly epic, after adding weather and sea conditions to the mix I was vaguely aware of the loss of Edinburgh and the gold cargo, but now aware of the details, all I can say is WOW! Thanks Drach for the knowledge!
Having watched rather a lot of these videos, it seems to me that RN engagements during WWII might best be described as "Any time the enemy is within range, no matter what boat I'm driving, I'm going to try to sink it", ie a USS Johnston, but for the entirety of the RN. Sometimes the tactic worked, other times (like here) it very nearly worked, and at others it really didn't work at all.
But no matter the situation, one thing is abundantly clear; those that manned ANY ship at sea under the RN, and any merchant ship being protected by the RN were AL, to a man, stupefyingly brave. I have a pretty active imagination, yet I am incapable of understanding this level of bravery.
So I salute every single officer, and every single person who ever served on any of these ships.
Well, they court martialed and shot an Admiral for being cautious once and since then "engage the enemy more closely" has generally been the unofficial motto.
@@jon-paulfilkins7820 Yup, the RN is big on heading towards the sound of the guns and joining in.
There is a tenet in the RN. It goes something like "no captain can be censured for hazarding his ship in the face of the enemy". It dates from pre-Napoleonic times I think and was brought in to as an effort to make the RN more aggressive. It worked! Nelson sent a signal before Trafalgar stating “No Captain can do very wrong if he places his Ship alongside that of an Enemy”.
@@rharvey751 Oh, absolutely, and I am well aware of all this. But there is a whole lot of difference between knowing about it and seeing it being repeated, time and again, and the bloody minded determination of all the crew members to continue the tradition. It reminds me of the time HMNZS (?) Kiwi and another boat, neither of which were much more than patrol boats, managed to sink an IJN submarine that displaced as much as the two boats combined.
I think that the thing that impresses me is that this was rarely individual bravery, but the combin ed bravery that pushed crew members to fight on for their crew mates.
@@jon-paulfilkins7820 Thought he was hung, not shot?
I've followed your channel since the early days with a computerized voice doing the narration, and I can honestly say that yours is one of the few that continues to improve as it goes. Keep up the great work!
This was one of the most touching and emotional episodes I encountered on your channel. Thank you for the experience.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them
RIP HMS Edinburgh. You did your job. You were a proud and proper ship.
To sink in any sea is quite disturbing but to sink in the northern arctic sea, Is just horrifying, Those conditions are just incomprehensible to someone like me who has grown up in tropical northern Australia. I have to take my hat off to all that served on all sides in those extreme conditions👍
Decades ago I sailed above the Arctic Circle in February. I remember that steel gray water, and how absolutely blue it was next to the ship's hull when you looked straight down into it. I also remember thinking that if were to foolishly fall overboard I was almost certainly going to cash in my chips, even if the lookouts spotted me immediately. When the wind kicked up the spray on your face was crazy cold. It was beautiful in a brutal kind of way, actually.
At least you wouldn't be eaten by a Crocodile!
I lived in Greenland for three years. Right next to the Baffin Bay with winds reaching hurricane speed about once or twice a month from October to May.
It gets cold up there in the Arctic. Really cold.
My goodness man, that was amazing! I have watched all of your videos over the years and this one showed the the true 'in the now' experience of naval battle. So many similar experiences of WW2 are as real as this, but are forgotten, as they are not written down...Courageous men, each and every one of them. Lest we forget!
What a great story Drach! I had heard about the Edinburgh gold being recovered but nothing of the circumstances and battle she endured. What a ship! 🙂
Listening to your video triggered a memory in my brain. I read in International Warships Review magazine about the diving and salvaging for the gold in 1981. The careful studying of HMS Belfast internal compartments. Being careful not to cut where fuel or left over ammunition would be.
The divers had left a camera and the last 5 gold bars near the cut out hole. Some many years later when they went to go retrieve both items. They were missing, suspecting Soviets had nabbed them.
I have spent considerable part of my evening trying to find the issue but no luck. I swear not making this up and will continue trying to find which monthly issue it was.
Brilliantly narrated. It tells just what horrors happen through war and how brave these sailors were.
Oh man, HMS Ulysses by Alistair MacLean was a great book about an Arctic convoy; I swear I was freezing cold and soaking wet while I was reading it!
I've just ordered a copy of Ulysses..
Thank you for reminding me of it....
ditto! my first thoughts when i watched this video
That's one of those books that I first read as a teen and keep going back to every decade or so. And I always want to cry when a rating offers the captain a fresh handkerchief because the captain's was, well...
He wrote a second one on Arctic Convoys late in his life
Thank you very much. I had heard of the recovery but knew nothing of the battle. What a mix of luck, bad luck and heroism.
Drach, You are continuously getting better in your videos. This ship was amazing as was the crew. Crossed the Northern Atlantic aboard a troop transport, seas were huge just glad it wasn't colder. This experience really heightened watching this video. The ship was the SS Upshur, and why it was so far north has remained a question for 60 years. The other ships and their crews were awe-inspiring. Keep wondering how I would perform in such circumstances. But these crews make my heart pound. What thought process you must go through while making these videos. Thanks for all your efforts.
The 40 minute 5 minute guides are my favourites 😂
I think it was back in the late 90's my local PBS station ran a documentary on the salvage of the gold that the Edinburgh was carrying. It covered the formation of the salvage team, all of who were some of the very best divers in the world and the technology that they would use in this attempt. It explained how they had the Belfast as their real-life model to examine and plan their attempt to recover the cargo. A problem was they had various reports from the ships present as to where the Edinburgh had sunk. They finally decided that they would use the Edinburgh's own navigator's report to start, as to the ships' position, as he had left the ship with his charts and navigation log. They sent a submersible down for a look and, sure enough, found the ship exactly where he said it would be. Having done a little training on navigation for my sailing days a very long time ago, (hello "American Practical Navigator" and goodbye), I sat there with a wave emotion washing over me, as they confirmed the wreck really was the Edinburgh, comparing various aspects of the wreck that they saw, with pictures from the Belfast. The recovery of the gold to me was anticlimactic, as I thought of the skillful work of that navigator, during a running battle in terrible weather, north of the Arctic Circle, on a heavily damaged ship.
This is by far the best video you made. Small details accompanied by creating a larger picture. Well done.
Having been born in Australia and effectively raised by a WW2 serving Sailor (my grandad, Sailmaker, HMS Colombo, HMS Slinger), that royal naval personnel considered a comment "unprintable" I find.. Rather Impressive.
Even with social standards at that time it would have to be quite the invective to reach that level. Dang it! I need to know what was said!
@@chrismaverick9828 Like the thoughts and dreams of eldritch entities, some things might be best left unknown. 😜
"What about the gold?" ... Well , whatever was said, (if said today) would probably lead to serious criminal charges being handed out , to everyone who was within eyesight of the ship !! I would pay real money to know what an English sailor thought was too harsh for common eyes !!
@@chrismaverick9828 most likely a pretty graphic description of where to put one or more goldbars, including the physical mechanics how to get them inthere..
@@jon-paulfilkins7820 Had to google 'eldritch entities'. I'll mark that down as one of the more obscure tidbits garnered from RUclips comments!
Incredible storytelling about the HMS Edinburgh's final stand! Your attention to detail and historical context really bring this moment to life. Great work!
As a lad I seldom saw snow or freezing water. As an adult, once got emursed in freezing water and once ensured -0 weather...almost killed me. Hard to fathom sea warfare in those conditions. Excellent video.
immersed Cheers.
Who needs fiction when you have real life… great video Drach… respect.
Edinburgh hitting that destroyer on the second salvo is amongst the best 360-no-scoping's in history.
Well done!
Very, very detailed, facts only. And a great amount of photos, partially unknown at least for me! 👍
Please keep up this level, you made it to be one of my favourite naval war channels with only two videos. ☺
Fine job Drach. I'm sitting here in Edinburgh with a model of HMS Edinburgh on the mantelpiece.
FYI any photos of Edinburgh without AA guns on her forward turret are during fitting out and trials. 2 Oerlikons is The Mediterranean. 1 Oerlikon and camouflage is the Arctic, 1942.
It warms my heart hearing the efforts made by the German navy to rescue the survivors of the Sherman.
So often there would have been no rescue.
Sailors are sailors and the sea is the enemy of them all. Especially in the Arctic. I lived in Greenland for three years; no descriptions can prepare you for the extreme conditions in the Arctic.
31:00 re-enforces something ive come to realize in learning about the various crews aboard, Fire Control Techs are arguably some of the smartest people aboard warships
Huzzah. A true scot doesn't go down without a fight
Just ask any bouncer at the local pup.
@@jayterry8551my cousins are apparently on a mission to provide ample proof of this…
"German poking duty".
What a wonderful phrase.
Another excellent episode! Well done relating the confusing details of a little known action in the icy Arctic.
Last time I was this early, the Lexingtons were still battlecruisers!
And binoculars didn't pollute the seafloor..
@@russkatherealoriginal6904 I like to think about how stuff like that will look like as a fossil in 50 million years
Another entertaining story, well told, and a fine example of a largely out gunned force, pooling their resources at critical moments, to ultimately score a strategic victory.
Yet another brilliant episode!! Alternating from laughing my head off to getting rather emotional. Superbly narrated as always, and thouroughly entertaining!!
Visiting Belfast is on my bucket list for next year.
I like to think when the German destroyers showed - Edinburgh lurched out of the snow like she would a pub. Yelled something to the effect of “I didn’t hear no bell” and or ‘Scotland Forever!’, before hurling an absolute haymaker to kick everything off.
HMS Edinburgh qualifies as a ship that would not quit. Memory eternal to her and her crew!
Thank you for covering this episode
A bit of trivia, but Sir Stuart Bonham-Carter was indeed a distant relation of the current actress Helena and cousin Crispin, also an actor.
Beat me to it!! Dude had quite the career.
Excellent narrative as always, Drach. And a little gold star to your servoskull for the importance of litanies to appease the Machine Spirit.
Brilliant Telling of a Heroic Story!!!
Thanks for all your work!
Well done Drachinifel as always. Appreciate your accuracy. Love your stuff. JR (Forth)Tasmania Australia
Can i just say that I had absolutely no knowledge of naval history, nor any particular interest in the subject. A few years ago I came across Drachinifel, and I now consider your fantastic work to be the very finest channel on RUclips. I've worked my way through a good percentage of the library of videos, and am constantly in eager anticipation of your next upload. I love everything about your videos.
Bravo Sir. May you long continue making the world a better place. ❤
Wow, what a story! If anything can be drawn from this, it is the importance of not assuming possible threats aren't really threats at all.
I vaguely knew about the Edinburgh and the gold, but I didn't know the details. So thanks for this very informative and exciting account👍👍👍
So close to an amazing escape! Thanks for the story, Drach. It is very inspiring.
Thanks for the narration, Drach. Quite a tale, such are the fortunes of war.🇬🇧🇦🇺
Magnificent, in the very finest tradition of the Service.
That is so weird! I was just looking for a video about this last night before bed and was sad that you didnt have one. I had to watch an off brand version, but im still gonna watch yours anyway still.
Very nicely told and a lovely photo of HMS Bulldog after her conversion to an SRE destroyer, complete with as many Oerlikons as a first-batch Fletcher and the anti-torpedo-boat pompom bow chaser. Very cool.
You included the rest of HMS Edinburgh's tale following her sinking - I wonder if you'll follow up and do a bit on what happened next to Rear-Admiral Bonham-Carter, because *he* had a very eventful time of trying to get back to the UK and it involves another fated cruiser whose relationship with torpedoes was... somewhat turbulent. I think it would make a great sequel to this video.
Carry on with the good work, Sir!
I could very well be wrong here, but I suspect Bonham-Carter was on board HMS Trinidad which definitely had a one in a million occurence in regards to one of her own torpedoes. I have everything crossed that Drac will post a video on the incident at some point.
An incredible story. So many tales of heroism
LOL! He said "litanies to the machine spirit"... One may think of Warhammer 40K, but I can also say from my early days wrenching on B-52 D's, Mechanics have recited litanies to the machine spirit since nuts were four sided!
'Litanies' can embrace a multitude of sins!
Thankyou for this. Fascinating story. Really enjoyed. it.
Literally just started researching this topic today. Other then edinburgh, tilawa, and garrisoppa. What other vessel's were lost during ww2 with precious metals on board?
I had followed the recovery of the gold, but did not know of how the sinking occurred, your video has now answered that situation, i bet the inquiry asked the captain a few “ questions”.
I saw someone complain recently that Drachinfel is too technical and I'm trying to understand what he means by 'too technical' in regards to testimonials by sailors present in a battle.
That person, seeking to have it dumbed down, has decades of output from cable TV history channels made specifically for them.
People brought up on the History Channel and it's superficial ilk have trouble when *any* level of detail is introduced.
In fairness, I'm sure that if you played this video to them, they would thoroughly enjoy it. It is on the opposite extreme of Drach's content to some of his highly technical work, such as the "Naval Engineering - What happens when a shell hits a battleship?" video I watched recently.
The picture @11.40 really brings home how bad the weather could be on those routes.
My headphone is at home 😢😂 no Drach until this evening... It is one of these days 😂....
Visiting hms Belfast a week ago was a fortunate treat for imagining this tale
Yeah I been in Belfast that was like 30yrs , want to revisit her
You spin a great yarn, Drach. Well done.
Those men dying in the oil is horrific.
Sad fact, that many survivors later boarded HMS Trinidad in Murmansk and died during German air attack on the same route. Including for example Czechoslovak airmen newly assigned to RAF, some of them held previously in Soviet internement for some time (and some of them even fought in the Spanish civil war)
Incredible history! Thank you.
Edinburgh was a brave ship, the way she carried Akashi was nothing short of amazing.
Petty Officer Arthur Start was the Father of a school friend who became Best Man at my wedding.
They lived in Plymouth not far from my original home until their deaths in the 1990’s.
Arthur was a large modest man who only spoke briefly of his experience on Edinburgh however with a solemn tone.
He spent time after the war as a steward at HM Naval College Manadon not far from the family home
Which would be more blood drenched? Tsarist gold or GULAG gold from Kolyma? Sounds doubly cursed to me. Great story though, thanks for sharing!
FACT.
The Russian revolution wasnt Russian, it was the tiny hats.
Do your own research 🧠
D
@@soyboymotivation wut
@@soyboymotivation No need to research talking points from the Protocols of Zion.
Great video, Drach. Greetings from Argentina
Great storytelling, Drach!
Hey Drach? Have you ever read “ A Midshipman’s War” it’s an account from the radio operator of one of destroyers present when the Barham “ violently disassembled” that’s my vote
Greetings and Salutations! Thank you Drax for yet another fantastic tale. I always thought the 3rd group of the Town class looked rather odd. The first 2 were more "easy on the eye" but their design was probably better from a damage control perspective. We are indeed fortunate to have the Belfast. Now once again, please do a history of the HMS Ashanti. All the best, Billi.
P.S. I appreciated the 40k reference. Perun does these as well. B.
Kind of curious why the UK chose such a dangerous route for a not unimportant cargo. PQ17 hasnt happen yet, however the route was by no means free of german contest. So why not go with a saver option like sending the gold via a soviet flagged ship to canada.
Not 100% sure but I think due to time of year the eastern soviet ports were largely still iced up at the time the gold was due played a factor
I actually know someone who was involved with the first dive team to Edinburgh he was a part of the team on support ship and has Many stories from that time.
"Drachinifel notification" instant thumbs up.
Great vid Drach (as always)
Are you as confused about RN damage control during WW2 as I am? Japanese- always woeful. USN always good. RN brilliant sometimes and awful at others (Ark Royal springs to mind).
Am I misreading this?
I will, of course, bow to your infinitely greater understanding .
Fantastic yarn. Thanks
Absolutely cracking story!
Well done Drach
that, is an amazing story.
the courage of the crews who manned the Murmansk convoys
and their escorts was the height of heroism and self-sacrifice.
may those who did not get home then, rest in peace.
as well as those who survived and lived to tell their tales,
most of whom have now gone to their own graves.
Edinburgh, herself, will remain hallowed seabed,
until some greedy bright sparks figure there is enough gold and
pre-atomic metal to go after that lure, and dives to strip her of whatever they can...
Excellent job telling a great story!
Thanks for an awesome story. 👍.
Brilliant Drach, thanks
Great video, fantastic.
Why did the USSR receive any proceeds from the salvaged gold? I assume they had no legal claim to it, so it was probably just some kind of gesture of goodwill during the Cold War?
I guess the salvage operation would have been impractical without their being onside?
Drach has covered this point previously (probably in a drydock Q&A). There was a complex deal between the various governments and insurers. HM treasury would not formally take ownership of all the gold until it was delivered, inspected, assayed, and moved into British vaults.
While the gold lay at the bottom of the ocean, 2/3 belonged to USSR and 1/3 to Britain. The obvious concern was that the USSR would retrieve all of it in a clandestine operation, then blame the disappearance on grave-robbers. Hence the British took the initiative, preferring to resolve the situation in a way which ensured that they got paid (even if the Soviets and salvagers would each receive a larger slice of the proceeds).
really good most enjoyably done
Another well done episode.
I never looked that deep into that fight. Amazing, how is there no movie about it?