I enjoyed this tier list, but I think the video would benefit from going faction-at-a-time with video chapters for easy reference. I will say that I’m grateful you labeled the model pictures, thank you for that! You both were insightful and informative for this Old World noob!
Hi Will, It definitely would be good, but unfortunately between full time work, my commute, maintaining a relationship and doing 4-5 videos/streams a week there's not enough hours in the day for me to add extra time consuming things
I think you underestimate Eternal Guard severely. They suffer from limited defences but they are WS5, AP1 unit in core that can give enemies -1WS and Init so that makes them actually a bit dangerous. And they have built-in Stubborn.
I took the Wolves of the Sea army to the SBOT Toronto, and the Marauder Tribe Berserkers are insanely good with Flails. One unit rear charged Chosen Knights and smashed 4 of them, breaking the unit. The Skin Wolves are a real threat, and with all the hard hitting skirmish units I had, it was hard for my opponents to counter them, and easier for me to kite my opponent's heavy hitters.
@@CloseOrder I took a unit of 4 and they held their own the entire event. The stacking of Warped Form is scary, and a M7 Skirish / Swiftstride unit is exactly what Chaos needs.
Just been playing around with some counters to Royal host and night goblin death stars. Ran a wood elf list with 4 wizards (two level 4s and two level 2s) using deepwood sphere. Used movement shenanigans to put trees everywhere near enemy wizard and killed him with one lucky d3 roll (3 strength 4 hits ap-1). Then used pillar of fire to kill everything after that. I think death stars that rely on wizards are vulnerable to all the wizard killing items. Never thought I’d be turning things into frogs, but I think it could be in play here.
Currently brewing up a Beasts list for a tournament - do you rate Gor highly enough to take more than the minimum 5 required? The problem I always run into is that every point spent on them isn't spent on Razortusks. Feels like to make them decent you have to commit a lot of points (character with slugskin, a BSB, maybe a war banner)
I've seen players using the dryads to do a super job to move opponent strong unit. They are skirmish to go where you want and then lose, and reorganize in open order, forcing a dragon to turn itself.
well, slayers can have a role that isn't go straight to the enemy (they die in one turn), but small units of 5 with a Giantslayer to guard the warmachines
@@CloseOrder 5 dudes with champ is 67 points, doomeeker 50 without runes, and you have to roll on merc table (last time i got -1 on movement), but he have 360° range; the 5 guys can least a couple of turns. Both are valid choices
@@CloseOrder this is more of a feeling, but I have this funny suspicion I could still outmaneuver even a 5-dwarf open-order unit. Doomseeker is cheaper, farther charge range, 360, pure points denial when he inevitably dies, is just as capable of making hamburger out of the fastcav/fliers that got up in the artillery crew's business in the first place. It might take me an extra turn, but I can pick around or charge/kill that 5-dwarf unit. The DS investment just gives better potential. Of course, lack of wounds against fastcav/skirmisher shooting is the big counter argument-- BUT wait! (I'm thinking as I'm typing,) -1 to hit the DS with BS shooting. 10 xbow shots from a unit of Dark Riders, moved, multishot, against skirmisher formation, I'm hitting on 6's. 2 hits (if I am slightly lucky,) Str 3 vs T4, I'm not killing that DS. He is more likely to take zero wounds than die.
Heralds are interesting given they can take hits for a King/Prince. Basically +5w for the king if the Herald is on a chariot. I do think there is something in the Royal Host.
Good vid man! Not looking forward to that Skeleton tek you mentioned there. I've versed a mates version of that skeleton brick, but it was 70 skeletons (40 bows). I managed to sort it with units of razorgor + some chariot support. He also got badly beaten by nomadic waagh, but not sure what the fellow was running and not sure if the additional 30 skeletons with chariot support makes all the difference (it might)
I think if you do a follow up for legacy factions (adding them to the existing list for better comparison), you are going to need to split the lower tiers, or its going to get exceptionally congested.
As a Dwarf Player i really do not understand why only Slayers were rated. There are even not a Core choice outside the Royal Clan of Karak Kadrin. Where are the Common Dwarf Warriors, Missile Troops, Rangers or Longbeards?
Oh mate swordmasters are good! Initiative 7 makes them so dangerous, 14 are cheap, dont bother with fancy upgrades beyond command and drilled. Cleaving blow is fantastic, they have magical attacks, and ws6 is no joke. They're brilliant can openers. I used them in a tournament recently and they did well in all 5 games. Also shadow warriors are bad, but with chariot runners they are a good screen for the lion chariot prince with white sword. They've been surprisingly useful for me.
People keep telling me this, but I'm yet to see it in action. To squishy to the masses of ranged damage which I find floats around all the events I get to
@@CloseOrder yeah perhaps a bit meta dependent, light shooting is not their friend, but aside from wood elves, I feel that will pass soon enough. Also have built in MR1 which helps against magic missiles.
Beastmen have a laundry list of special rules that can make the Gors surprisingly good! However it's also the Character support (and lack of ability to put a minotaur on a wyvern) that combine to make the Gor fat more appealing
@@CloseOrder something I wish you mentioned was the ability of an orc mob to give you a bunker for a LD10 wizard in troll horde, free bows and the built in +1 to cast makes them pretty decent.
The short version is: Infantry struggle in TOW, and Greatswords are squishy and low I (due to great weapons) meaning they almost never get to swing. Dwarf Great Weapons actually do get some attacks out due to their better resilience
Short version is that no matter how hard or reliably they hit/wound, it doesn't matter if you die before you get a chance to deliver that damage. I am reasonably confident that at some point a GHB/balance pass of some variety will come through and at least attempt to make infantry models better, but we have to accept that we are at best 3rd priority to GW for this sort of attention, we sure as hell aren't getting 40k/AoS levels of effort, so I would say adapting to the meta in this game system probably is less of a bad idea than it is in the headline title games
I feel like you were too harsh to orc boyz, they're just so damn cost efficient if you give them a shield and a bow, they work as both big blocks that your opponent has to deal with and as 30 point MSU redirectors/chaff and mob rule might unironically be broken, it makes orc casters some of the best casters in the game
I actually think Flagellants are a little better than you give them credit for. They are an unbreakable unit in an otherwise army of lowish LD outside of their general's command range.
@@ProxyHammer1 Not in Empire! One of the few breaks that Empire gets. If Rule of 3 wasn’t in play you could max out your character selections with nothing but level 4’s!
I think perhaps a little tweak that would help encourage more "balanced" combined arms lists would be to allow mutliple units rank bonuses stack in combat. So those bricks of 180 skeletons with +2 rank bonus would be facing maybe 5 units starting with +10 rank bonus.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
These teir lists could really benefit from chapters and reviewing units by faction. The random order is a bit jarring.
agreed, i want to check specific units and its really annoying to scroll through trying to figure out when they are talked about
Just scroll through it takes 2 seconds to find it
I enjoyed this tier list, but I think the video would benefit from going faction-at-a-time with video chapters for easy reference.
I will say that I’m grateful you labeled the model pictures, thank you for that! You both were insightful and informative for this Old World noob!
Hi Will,
It definitely would be good, but unfortunately between full time work, my commute, maintaining a relationship and doing 4-5 videos/streams a week there's not enough hours in the day for me to add extra time consuming things
@CloseOrdergoing a faction at a time wouldn’t take you any longer 🥺
@CloseOrderwell your balancing act is worth it for us +1 sub brilliant and concise report
I think you underestimate Eternal Guard severely. They suffer from limited defences but they are WS5, AP1 unit in core that can give enemies -1WS and Init so that makes them actually a bit dangerous.
And they have built-in Stubborn.
I took the Wolves of the Sea army to the SBOT Toronto, and the Marauder Tribe Berserkers are insanely good with Flails. One unit rear charged Chosen Knights and smashed 4 of them, breaking the unit. The Skin Wolves are a real threat, and with all the hard hitting skirmish units I had, it was hard for my opponents to counter them, and easier for me to kite my opponent's heavy hitters.
Skin Wolves are nuts, definitely something I'm interested in building around!
@@CloseOrder I took a unit of 4 and they held their own the entire event. The stacking of Warped Form is scary, and a M7 Skirish / Swiftstride unit is exactly what Chaos needs.
Just been playing around with some counters to Royal host and night goblin death stars. Ran a wood elf list with 4 wizards (two level 4s and two level 2s) using deepwood sphere. Used movement shenanigans to put trees everywhere near enemy wizard and killed him with one lucky d3 roll (3 strength 4 hits ap-1). Then used pillar of fire to kill everything after that. I think death stars that rely on wizards are vulnerable to all the wizard killing items. Never thought I’d be turning things into frogs, but I think it could be in play here.
That's a.super interesting angle I hadn't considered Toby!
Oof, I've always loved Shadow Warriors conceptually and tend to field them because I like them (not super competitive here) but dang lol
I used them in a tournament recently and they were surprisingly useful, also won the watchtower for me which was a lot of points.
Currently brewing up a Beasts list for a tournament - do you rate Gor highly enough to take more than the minimum 5 required? The problem I always run into is that every point spent on them isn't spent on Razortusks. Feels like to make them decent you have to commit a lot of points (character with slugskin, a BSB, maybe a war banner)
Yes, but as you say you want to take the unit with a Mino&BSB ideally
I've seen players using the dryads to do a super job to move opponent strong unit. They are skirmish to go where you want and then lose, and reorganize in open order, forcing a dragon to turn itself.
well, slayers can have a role that isn't go straight to the enemy (they die in one turn), but small units of 5 with a Giantslayer to guard the warmachines
Yes, but I feel for the points there are far better choices to fulfil that role (e.g. Doomseekers)
@@CloseOrder 5 dudes with champ is 67 points, doomeeker 50 without runes, and you have to roll on merc table (last time i got -1 on movement), but he have 360° range; the 5 guys can least a couple of turns. Both are valid choices
@@CloseOrder this is more of a feeling, but I have this funny suspicion I could still outmaneuver even a 5-dwarf open-order unit. Doomseeker is cheaper, farther charge range, 360, pure points denial when he inevitably dies, is just as capable of making hamburger out of the fastcav/fliers that got up in the artillery crew's business in the first place. It might take me an extra turn, but I can pick around or charge/kill that 5-dwarf unit. The DS investment just gives better potential. Of course, lack of wounds against fastcav/skirmisher shooting is the big counter argument-- BUT wait! (I'm thinking as I'm typing,) -1 to hit the DS with BS shooting. 10 xbow shots from a unit of Dark Riders, moved, multishot, against skirmisher formation, I'm hitting on 6's. 2 hits (if I am slightly lucky,) Str 3 vs T4, I'm not killing that DS. He is more likely to take zero wounds than die.
1:17:00
Can you put characters on light chariots inside infantry units?
You can! You can also put them in Cavalry units
Heralds are interesting given they can take hits for a King/Prince. Basically +5w for the king if the Herald is on a chariot. I do think there is something in the Royal Host.
Good vid man! Not looking forward to that Skeleton tek you mentioned there. I've versed a mates version of that skeleton brick, but it was 70 skeletons (40 bows). I managed to sort it with units of razorgor + some chariot support. He also got badly beaten by nomadic waagh, but not sure what the fellow was running and not sure if the additional 30 skeletons with chariot support makes all the difference (it might)
Yeah it's definitely the new hotness we need to work out how to beat!
I think if you do a follow up for legacy factions (adding them to the existing list for better comparison), you are going to need to split the lower tiers, or its going to get exceptionally congested.
1:40:30 manelolant drayarda like in drycha just all drayards are difrent unit woth difrent paint job in that like forest spiryt army?
Yeah different paint jobs could work!
As a Dwarf Player i really do not understand why only Slayers were rated. There are even not a Core choice outside the Royal Clan of Karak Kadrin. Where are the Common Dwarf Warriors, Missile Troops, Rangers or Longbeards?
Those are all Heavy Infantry, and can be found in the Heavy Infantry video I did with Richy
3:25
Uu wood elfs
Spam glave guard
Greate
Look at pile of 72 of them 1/2 painted and all to resbase (2nd hand purchuse) at leas thay are bild
Oh mate swordmasters are good! Initiative 7 makes them so dangerous, 14 are cheap, dont bother with fancy upgrades beyond command and drilled. Cleaving blow is fantastic, they have magical attacks, and ws6 is no joke. They're brilliant can openers. I used them in a tournament recently and they did well in all 5 games.
Also shadow warriors are bad, but with chariot runners they are a good screen for the lion chariot prince with white sword. They've been surprisingly useful for me.
People keep telling me this, but I'm yet to see it in action.
To squishy to the masses of ranged damage which I find floats around all the events I get to
@@CloseOrder yeah perhaps a bit meta dependent, light shooting is not their friend, but aside from wood elves, I feel that will pass soon enough. Also have built in MR1 which helps against magic missiles.
Sorry, I don't understand how yeomen at arms could be S tier! Could you please explain it again? Thanks
Stubborn + veteran and being dirt cheap with a 5+ makes them a bargain if you want a roadblock.
An orc is points naked and is T4, what makes gors so much better than the orc mob? The roster surrounding them?
Beastmen have a laundry list of special rules that can make the Gors surprisingly good!
However it's also the Character support (and lack of ability to put a minotaur on a wyvern) that combine to make the Gor fat more appealing
@@CloseOrder something I wish you mentioned was the ability of an orc mob to give you a bunker for a LD10 wizard in troll horde, free bows and the built in +1 to cast makes them pretty decent.
Pretty crowded with empire in the F tier, sad but true, keep printing those Lastsword Hunters as archers until our day in the sun comes 😀
Create an F-minus tier and toss flagellants down there.
Would've liked to hear *why* Greatswords are F-tier.
The short version is: Infantry struggle in TOW, and Greatswords are squishy and low I (due to great weapons) meaning they almost never get to swing.
Dwarf Great Weapons actually do get some attacks out due to their better resilience
Short version is that no matter how hard or reliably they hit/wound, it doesn't matter if you die before you get a chance to deliver that damage. I am reasonably confident that at some point a GHB/balance pass of some variety will come through and at least attempt to make infantry models better, but we have to accept that we are at best 3rd priority to GW for this sort of attention, we sure as hell aren't getting 40k/AoS levels of effort, so I would say adapting to the meta in this game system probably is less of a bad idea than it is in the headline title games
you missed out dwarfes :( we have other units other than slayers XD
All the other Dwarf units are Heavy Infantry, I did that tier list a few weeks ago with Richy!
@@CloseOrder i missed that one will watch :)
I feel like you were too harsh to orc boyz, they're just so damn cost efficient if you give them a shield and a bow, they work as both big blocks that your opponent has to deal with and as 30 point MSU redirectors/chaff and mob rule might unironically be broken, it makes orc casters some of the best casters in the game
I play Beastmen and find Gor quite good for their points at 7 per head. That an Orc boy starts at 5 pts is wild for T4.
0:10 and a cat ;]
Hell yea clan rats in S 💪🐀
What about the Bretonians knights on foot and battle pilgrims?.....I have been taking both units, and they have been performing very well for me.
I believe he covered both in the heavy infantry video
I did, thanks Jack!
@@CloseOrder also hate that my favorite models ever (greatswords) got simply brushed aside, understandable, but at least explain why they’re awful lol
Slow, squishy, poor output, not in core
Aww, why only core factions :(
Because there's a lot of Regular infantry! I'm sure I'll do a Legacy Faction one soon enough
What happened to Treekin?
Treekin aren't Core
@@CloseOrder neither is Wildwood Rangers and Wardancers. Rare like Treekin.
Sorry, mind blanked when I replied! Treekin are Monstrous Infantry, not Regular Infantry - I rated those in that stream a couple of months ago
I actually think Flagellants are a little better than you give them credit for. They are an unbreakable unit in an otherwise army of lowish LD outside of their general's command range.
I love the models!
The major issue I have with them is they're non-core infantry at a time where that's just something that isn't playable
@@CloseOrder I'm curious what do you see empire running now adays?
2-3 Level 4's, 3 Engineers, min core (Scout Archers and Knights) Triple Cannon, Double Hellblaster.
Sometimes a STank
@@CloseOrder Interesting, so pure gunline then with screening elements. 3 level 4's though? Thought They were limited to 1 per 1000pts
@@ProxyHammer1
Not in Empire! One of the few breaks that Empire gets. If Rule of 3 wasn’t in play you could max out your character selections with nothing but level 4’s!
No Hobgoblins?
This is all the core factions, I will cover Legacy factions at a later date!
@@CloseOrder I was thinking that but then I saw beastmen. My mistake. Sad that there are 2 separate lvls of armies/players.
What they are all F? I'm shocked!
No Bestigor? But they're the best gor!
Heavy Infantry, rated them a month ago with Richy!
@CloseOrder Oh, fair enough then cheers!
Apperently Dwarf core only exists out of Slayers, no wonder they're a dying race xD
noooo my mighty beardy bois xD iv lost every game to chaos dragon lord brettonians and fanatics so i can kinda understand xD
All the rest of the Dwarfs are Heavy Infantry
I think perhaps a little tweak that would help encourage more "balanced" combined arms lists would be to allow mutliple units rank bonuses stack in combat. So those bricks of 180 skeletons with +2 rank bonus would be facing maybe 5 units starting with +10 rank bonus.
This would make Bretonnians even stronger though. Combo charges from lances would be devastating.
Don't you have to be British to be a bond villain?
We don't discriminate in this house, french villains are valid too!