Firstly I feel Granolahs wish changing from instantly making him stronger to instead putting him in some sort of time chamber like once that he’d trap himself in until he got strong enough. Thus would make his stubbornness towards attacking Goku and Vegeta make sense as he would hav even training for that one moment for hundreds of years in his own. Secondly I don’t think Monaito dying would fix things like you think as the thing people don’t like about Toronbo would have STILL happened in this arc. Sure he’ll never be used again but he still have weighted down on this arc in the eyes of fans, in fact him disappearing might actually make fans hate him more as he’ll seem like even more of a cheap plot devise as he is now. Thirdly the reason people are upset aren’t because Goku and Vegeta are taking a step back, it’s HOW they are taking a step back. It doesn’t feel like it was set up properly because they were JUST given new power ups. Goku advancing his training in Ultra Instinct and Vegeta getting an all new form. If they were planning for them to take a step back in this arc they shouldn’t have given them such build up that made the fans expect and want them to be used. We want to become far less important but we don’t want it done with the same respect as retiring a flag. We want it down with respect and patience, not for them to be abruptly torn down and pushed it the side by something unrecognizable. I do doubt you’ll even see this comment but if you do, thanks for reading though by pointless essay.
Yes, the db fandom is full of contradictions... HOWEVER, I would say that the arc itself is at fault for this... Like, you build stuff, and then... you waste chapters and chapters over fights and fights. EXACTLY like in the past. What is different here? Oh, Goku has now mastered the u.i. even more! Annnd, he loses anyway, always and ever. Vegeta got a new form! Annd he loses anyway. The Heeters do not rely on brute force! And the first thing they do with the dragon balls is to power up one of them... If there really is all this interesting story for the Heeters and Granolah, or for Goku and Vegeta, why not give us more chapters where they act like people, in a calmer enviroment, and can better show off their other perks, other than being the usual screaming morons? Why not have the fight end when Monaito interrupts it, then some time passes in which we see the Heeters moving toward their actual goal, Granolah reconsider his life, and Goku and Vegeta doing the same for the latest events, AND THEN, they meet again and fight a powered up Gas, while Elec has already explained his goal, and so him "having to do something else" is far more compelling, because it's not a mystery overly built on itself, and that thus can be an even bigger let down?
I have a few ideas for how to fix some of these issues Firstly: don't let Vegeta just pull out Ultra Ego, yes he's been "training" with Beerus but it was skimmed over and felt the power/form was "given to him". Let him lead with/expand on the techniques he learned in the last arc, he can absorb energy now, let him siphon off Granolas power throughout the fight, only for him to hit a cap that he can't absorb any more and his body can't take it, and Granola still has overwhelming power. Have Ultra Ego hinted add and bleed in a few little nudges here and there light maybe still show that the more damage he takes his attacks r getting a little more powerful, not on par with Ultra Ego itself but enough for some of the characters to point it out. Secondly: touch on Gas's and Granolas rivaly a little more in the beginning of the arc. Thirdly: extend the flash back. These r 40 page chapters so u can fit a whole "arc" into 3 or 4 chapters this takes the focus off the present and gives Bardock time to breathe, maybe have his "softer" side only show up around Gine, only for him to become ruthless while "on the job" this gives fans a chance to see both sides of the character, and have the softer side reappear later when he sees Granola and his mother and maybe only because it reminds him of Gine and Goku. Show bits and pieces of Frieza doing business with someone and reveal later its the Heaters, then use that as a Segway to maybe have a 2 chapter backstory for Granola and Gas and how this ordeal affected both of them. This gives u a entire "arc" in only 5 chapters and gives more build up/pay off when we snap back to the present and Gas in his "full power" shows up. Lastly: show the heaters getting more information from 73 and actually USING it. Maybe even information on Goku and Vegeta from their fight with him when he was fused with Morro and use that to their advantage. Could also build up more mystery around what Alec had to give the dragon as collateral and expand more on Gas's seeming dislike of the fact that he had to rely on the wish to get this strong as its brought up but only in one speech bubble. And kinda touching on my last point about the flashbacks what if it was shown that the other 2 did actively doubt Alec's plans, but were scared into compliance buy the showing of Alec working with Frieza and wiping out Cereal. Or hint at the fact that maybe they were brainwashed/modified to be absolutely loyal. Just some thoughts.
I think the main problem is for every step forward its two steps back for the manga. Both moro and the heeters were unique villains with unique powers and motives. But then they turned into 'fighting man's characters and fell back on old tropes. The manga is too scared to take risks, or if it does take risks it does so for a fleeting moment before going back into the comfort zone. People are losing interest because we've basically seen the same thing over and over and subconsciously it..just gets tedious.
Actually as non canon as I'm about to say, check out CallMeARJ on RUclips about his current Ultra Vegitto series he came up with. I won't spoil it since if an idea like that be implemented into Dragonball, that will really grab the viewer's attention.
I'd like to see more Saiyan backstory from way back but I'd also like to see them explore Frieza's race and expand on their lineage and how they came to prominence throughout the universe considering the Kais knew about him, Beerus knew about him and then there's Babidi with Buu to consider, I'd love to see how they found out about him. There's so much lore available left unused.
@@JordonPatrickMears11211988 no, I'm sure it's just his family, but I'd love to see more of his race as it is. Closest we have right now is Frost and he's a freak in his own universe just like Frieza is in his.
I'm sorta just sick of this "only one person can fight at a time" stuff they keep doing. I guess it's a pride or honor thing? But if Vegeta had shared a bean with Granolah and they'd teamed up, I think it would have been a lot more hype. People want Vegeta to beat a big bad, I think? Having Goku on the sidelines and giving Granolah a chance to beat up the Heaters would have been nice. I'm also not used to reading monthly updates like this, but it kinda feels like not enough happens in each section as opposed to all the cool stuff that was happening during Moro. I could be totally off with this, but this is why I personally am not feeling this saga as much as the last.
The only reason I care so much about this aspect of the story though is because I am writing a fan work for DBZ that does use them as a unit during battles rather than a series of 1 on 1s.
Heh. Didn't know you were also a Dragon Ball fan- though, I guess I shouldn't be terribly surprised, as there is a fair bit of overlap between Sonic and Dragon Ball (I mean, maybe you've made DB references in your vids before, but I likely just figured you knew stuff 'cause of the Internet / fandom osmosis). Anyways, cool seeing ya here.
I've been really enjoying this arc. Showing Bardock was really nice and ultra ego vegeta was cool too even though it didn't really last that long. And even though, I love Goku, I absolutely love that he isn't the main focus and he KNOWS that this isn't his fight. And I really like granolah....even though him being the strongest by him making a wish wasn't that cool but I didn't pay too much mind. But I understand why people don't like this arc and that's fine.
Here's my question. If it's not Goku's fight, if it's not Vegita's fight, and they're the main characters, why should we care about the fight at all? It's not the "main characters" fight, and it's not the "side characters" (the z fighters) fight, why should we care?
@@fadjabarry2022 this is like watching a Superman movie only to see John Dallas fight dug brown. Who are those characters? They made them up for the movie. Where’s Superman you ask? He’s sitting out, this is John’s fight. Tell me, you enjoying your “Superman” movie?
@@fadjabarry2022 Goku is the main character. It's always about him. It'll always be about him. And it's his fight too. He's literally fighting a dude with a grudge against his father.
I feel the problem with Bardocks now canon expanded backstory about him being nicer is that it makes Gokus whole origin more and more like Supermans, sent off by parents who were different than the rest of their race to keep him safe from the destruction of their home planet and to grow up into a good person. In the original backstory Bardock was the textbook example of a Saiyan, only really interested in battle and not even caring about his own son because he was weak, Goku only escaping the destruction of his home planet with a combination of luck and the way his culture wages war in sending out very young Saiyans to destroy worlds or be destroyed themselves. He's not some destined messiah like figure, he's a basic bog standard Saiyan who proved they could be better than what his people were if they had tried.
I did like the small aspect of bardock being just a tad kinder than the rest in the way that he wanted for once to build something rathwr than destroy. He was a scientist once upon a time.. afterall.
@@Nerdthatdreamsofelectricsheep While that's true, at least that Bardock's character set him aside compared to Jor-El's motivations. Bardock didn't even believe the visions at first until they hammered their way in. He didn't even play an active role in trying to save his son compared to his minus counterpart. Which means Goku's initial reasoning to go to Earth was to destroy it and then a mishap happend that prevented him from doing it. Now it is just a straightforward Superman like circumstance as it turns out he was indeed sent to Earth to be safe.
It's pretty much the same with the Moro saga it actually start out strong at first, but it slowly got worse during the final battle and the ending was just nonsense before Granolah made his debut.
@@smilelydogge2821 so literally all of Granolah's setting? cause i think in the same episode the cast is in beerus planet they also reach cereal planet
I think when people say things like "I'm sick of Goku/Vegeta, I want the focus to be on someone else," they usually mean someone like Piccolo, Krillin, or even Gohan. Not someone who's just debuting. For the most part, people just want to see their favorite characters get some shine and not be overshadowed or made irrelevant by the lead characters.
So when you mentioned Frieza, I had a thought. What if Frieza ended the arc by cheapshotting Gas and/or Elec and that is what kickstarted the next arc? Oil and Maki are the only ones remaining and we’d basically see the villains of the last few arcs have to deal with Frieza. Hell, you can throw Cooler in there for added peril.
For the whole paradox thing, it's the same thing with captain marvel in the MCU, they shoe horn in a character who's never appeared but we're told how powerful and super important she is. You can't throw in a new character with no personality, make them the strongest in the series and expect us to care about them and not be annoyed when they get the win over characters we've spent years getting invested in. In the moro saga and tournament of power it was characters we'd known for decades like Tien, Piccolo, the androids ect. It's not that fans don't want a character to win, but rather we want characters who have been tossed away to get to shine and get the attention. If Granolah had been introduced a few years ago and grown to this point, people would probably love it. Imagine if Kaba was the one who made the wish. The fans would love it, and that was just a character who was set up a year or so prior to the tournament of power.
I think this is it. It isn’t that people want “characters other than the Saiyans” to get time to shine, it’s that we want other members of the main roster to get time to shine.
@@rnguice3489 oh agreed. I am not a fan of his character, but his design is solid and how he got the powers makes way more sense than "my weird plane crashed and that gave me god mode that surpasses gods and the stone that gave me god mode. OMZ I'm so special"
When we said we wanted less goku and Vegeta we meant we wanted Gohan, Piccolo, Krillen, Tien and the like involved and doing thing, not new characters we’ve never met getting huge power ups by wish granting shenanigans.
Firstly where the hell is Frieza, secondly the action and story feels campy AF, the powerup the dragon provides is absurd and a instant turnoff. Also they teased Bardock, but it doesnt seems its gonna have any lasting effect
I just want dragon ball to return to the small screen. Yes super hero look interesting (even if I don't really like the look of the cg), but I would just like to sit in front off the tv and enjoy 20/30 minutes of DB on a weekly base. At first I thought they where just waiting until the manga was ahead enough for them to just start adapting without worrying about the manga. However, at this point it feels like it's just canceled, never to return again. Idk maybe they never planned on bringing it back to begin with, but I always thought that it was just around the corner. On a more serious note, the voice actors aren't getting any younger either and I would prefer the original cast to have the chance to complete the series. We already lost Hiromi Tsuru (RIP) and at the ripe age of 85, it is not unsurprising if we would lose Masako Nozawa soon as well. Obviously I hope she lives to at least 100, but realistically that is unlikely to happen.
Same problem with all of Super every interesting villain devolves into a stronger form Morroh, Granolah and Hit all had this problem where there power is just overcome by being stronger while they all had interesting concepts that should teach Goku to go beyond just random powerups. Also the constant we get beat up heres a fast healing item is such a tired trope. Even more tired than the main character showing up late was in DB/DBZ.
The showing up late part for the hero hasn't really happend much in Super if at all, so not sure where that's coming from. Though arguably that worked well in Z as it did actually allow other characters to actually do stuff.
@@MCPhatman You mean the one, where some one or the villian just becomes super strong in mid battle cause they 'adapted' mid fight? If so I see your point.
Glad I’m not the only one who’s felt this saga feels a bit…off like it hasn’t had anything particularly stupid but idk it just didn’t grip my attention the way the moro saga did more excited for super hero (the gohan movie) lol
There has certainly been a lot of ups and downs, but overall I am decently interested and what comes next usually. Can't wait to see where the story goes!
It been dragging out too long this is like the 16th chapter of it and it’s been non stop fighting you can only hold intrest for so long on a monthly toyotaro doesn’t seem to get that
It feels like the arc is in the finale but there are no 'real' stakes. People are fighting with each other because they have some motiviations, sure, but there is no big looming threat that seems big enough to warrant attention. It's like a little sidequest but not much more. Vegeta getting a form is cool but the occasion doesn't seem to fit, it's just cause he is training and needed practice. It was not a meaningful situation like for Gokus UI which was crucial for the universe to survive. Bardock involved is also cool, but Goku and Vegeta don't seem to care THAT much anyway, it has no further implications on the broader plot. Just some interspersed but ultimately fruitless lore. The heeters gang should have been a bigger thing than what they currently show. A smart empire to rival Freeza, able to blackmail the heroes and impose critical winning and losing conditions. They just seem like a self-important leader, two goons and one fighter without enough personality or background to care about. Just imagine them ACTUALLY being able to get earth into their empire with the heroes having no choice but to obey them for the time beeing due to Gas + them having the 2 Dragonballs (+ hostages?) , that could have been pretty fun.
I tapped out after Gas became the strongest in the universe, Granolah doing it first rubbed me the wrong way and I still don’t like the way how they made both characters this powerful just so they can pose a threat to Goku and Vegeta. If this arc was the very first one of DBS that took place shortly after BOG then this whole premise could have worked seamlessly, but after the Moro Arc this story feels really out of place and it just keeps getting more ridiculous as time goes on.
Ever since Frieza had thoughts about being immortal, I always thought what it would be like if someone actually wished for something OP like that. I didn't mind Granolah doing it but when Gas did it, I didn't care for it. Either way, I am still usually interested to see what comes next month to month.
I would have actually preferred if this was how frieza grew stronger. The 6 months training bugged me soo much. That said using this lazy writing on not one but two completely new characters is just as dumb.
I feel like my biggest issues with the arc currently are Gas and the choreography? With Gas, it just feels weird to have this guy that Goku and Vegeta cant seem to beat, with them hinting at a "How did Bardock beat this guy back in the day? What was his secret?" when I feel like with Goku and Vegeta's experience, and with the way Gas is fighting, its no different then any other baddie they have fought thats stronger than them. It just feels really weird that they are so shocked by Gas's fighting style and techniques. Then the last chapter kinda was frustrating with some of the choreography with Goku jumping around from trains and buildings and what not. While it is cool to see, it just seems so pointless when Goku is able to fly? Like made sense in the tournament of power for the rule of no flying, but now that there isn't a rule, seeing Goku have to leap from one thing to jump off another just feels against the character and the rest of the fights throughout Super and Z. Or the fact that Goku got hit by a train and is just stuck to the side of it struggling. When he gets punched through mountains on a normal basis. Maybe its like Power Scaling feels weird this arc I guess is the complaint? The way Goku moves is like how GT felt. Of them purposely not doing things he does on the normal, or he's fighting out of character, just so the fight "key moments" can make sense, like firing so many blasts at Super 17 so Super 17 can power up even though Goku doesn't typically fight like that. Its things like that when my interest starts to fall for this series. "Watch out Goku! Gas is throwing a train at you! Quick jump outta the way!" When, if he's focused and paying attention, should be able to just tear through the train. Or just...fly around it. Or something.
Personally i really like the Grenolah saga and like it even better than Moro. Yes I'll admit it's not perfect but when has Dragon Ball ever been perfect, it's good. I prefer the nicer Bardock and am always excited to see where the manga goes. As for 73 i hope he shows up next arc but i wouldn't be at all surprised if Toyotaro completely forgot about him, as for something i recommend this channel cover i'd love a What if Bulma Got her wish for a boyfriend in the Pilaf Arc
It's not because the saiyans aren't involved, people are checking out because the spotlight is on characters we don't care about. This is why the Cell Saga was so good, we got to see characters like Trunks and Gohan get shine, characters that people care about and can sympathize and relate too.
Absolutely! Trunks and Gohan didn't just get they shine, they played crucial roles in the story. And even with that you were able to balance them along with Goku and Vegeta
Even piccolo got to shine in the android saga when he merged with kami or krillin developing feelings for 18 and not deciding to click the button lol super falls short in comparison to Z
I'm not a fan of super Bardock because he is essentially edgy goku. Where Bardock in the special was more interesting. I personally find it more interesting when a character is challenged to change their mindset. It seemed like Bardock in super has everything figured out and at the same time is still following faulty orders. Super Bardock doesn't seem like the type to stay in planet vegeta. Yet he does. Why?
My reasons, even though I am stil reading but more so "hoping for this arc to finish": - Lack of variation in the scenery. We have been in the same place for the past few chapters, and it feels like I am rewinding the same chapter even though the plot is obviously different/progressing. But because of everything happening in the same place, the human brain just doesn't process the new information and is instead overlapping with prior information - Lack of personality of the main protagonists as stated in the video aswell - Pacing, it feels like some fights don't mean anything (supported by the fact we don't know much about these characters) - Where is Frieza?? I would wish for some sideplot on Earth for example to happen inbetween the chapters, or to fix the personality issue to give meaning to the viewer
We do want Goku and Vegeta to step back. But this is half assing it. We want story arcs without them being shown. Them having no contribution to the story. Give Goten and Trunks some shine. Let them have an arc of their own, sans their parents and Gohan. Give Piccolo an arc. Give Uub an arc. Masako Nozawa isn't getting any younger. If they want the franchise to continue forward after she retires (she's 85?), they need to start transitioning away from characters she voices. Having said all that I'm sure there's been several executive meetings at Toei about moving forward.
I agree. Give Vegeta this one win against an arc villain, and THEN give us an arc featuring teen Marron pining for wrong-sounding-voice Goten, or Piccolo’s kids making a plan to get the Super DragonBalls that involves hijacking a Frieza Force planet freighter, or scorned genius Bulla helping Pilaf make new giant mechs.
Both Manga arcs after the Tournament of Power have been meh for me. Vegeta's new form is problably the one memorable thing that I would like to see in animation, maybe as a dlc for Xenoverse 2 or FighterZ. Everything else is just meh. Granolah is better than Moro though imo.
Tbh when Ultra Ego was revealed, it kinda gave me the idea that this arc would revolve around Vegeta. Previously he had gone through a character development by protecting the Namekians and defending the Earth. As far as we were concerned Goku had already mastered UI in the Moro arc, while Vegeta picked up the FSF technique from the Yardrats. And then Vegeta surpassed Kakarot with his own limit-breaking power, one focused on trading blows instead of avoiding damage. On top of that he was throwing hands with the big dawg of the universe, a survivor who had it in for the Saiyans and who had managed to squash Ultra Instinct. It would have been really cool to see Vegeta not only shine through with his GoD power, but also take down the big bad villian for once. Instead we get chapter 82 where Whis is like "You gotta master Ultra Instinct further. Who are you?" and Goku's like "Hey, I remember my parents now." It's kinda redundant to be focused on UI considering the fact that we had two other arcs around this concept. Even though Bardock being a part of this arc is cool, I kinda wish Vegeta could have carried this arc. Now it seems less and less likely by the chapter. This is basically turning into another DBS arc where a villian shows up and Goku's like "Kamehameha" and the villian fricking dies. Ah well. It was cool while it lasted
The only thing i didn't like about this manga (other than the monthly release), was the cliché of Vegeta giving his energy so Goku could step up to the fight. But after hearing from Masako that Goku only did it out of necessity and he isn't really enjoying the fight then maybe it wasn't that bad. Hopefully the ending of the Arc is a good one.
Due to how I'm not dabbling into my twitter feeds to see how people respond to the Granolah arc. I've essentially been watching Masako's and Rhymestyle's views and it really does goes to show these 2 sides of the coin. For 1, I agree mainly with Masako because tbh while Granolah was annoying I didn't feel like we needed Goku nor Vegeta to sell a story but of course they have to be there otherwise nobody cares. Which leads into Rhyme's view which is Vegeta doing the Vegeta cycle again and not having him help Granolah (I do remember him wanting some kind of duo attack with Goku and vegeta) He also pointed out Goku trying to lead again(It's been awhile since the video) but the point is I can see why but I can also tell people are very wishy washy about things unless you smooth into it.
I agree with what a lot of others are saying. It feels like fanfiction, with new forms, Bardock, etc. I'd say it's almost moving closer to DBH, where they rely on things that will pop the crowd for a bit (Hey, it's Bardock! Hey, Vegeta is transforming! Hey, Goku does UI more!) without any substance to move the characters forward. It's like you said, anime is usually good at showing characters develop and I think Dragon Ball Super has held off on doing any substantial character development that had lasting impact for a long time. Plus, with the new movie they'll probably change parts that are canon anyways (or make them canon only to the manga), so Ultra Ego could turn into the new SSJ5
I think a big problem is that Gas is overstaying his welcome in this fight. A potential fix might be showing us more of what Elec was up to or as you said have oil & maki start to doubt. The fighting is unique & well done, but it feels like it has no consequence. They need a way to push the story forward while they’re fighting.
You can't wish to become the strongest from a weak dragon, if it was that simple, villains with the ability to time travel and know the dragon ball history like Towa, she would've made Mira with a set of dragon balls much stronger than Beerus since Mira has great potential and seeming limitless lifespan. Also, the wish was stated to be no stronger than the gods themselves which should include Supreme Kais, so how is it they made Granolah and Gas stronger than a Supreme Kai known as a God of Creation. Besides, Granolah's original power level was stated to be weaker than 1st form Frieza and Gas in monster form was weaker than Bardock back then, so how can those two became so strong that easily? The Granolah saga is dumbest saga in all of Dragon Ball, unless there's powerful hidden villain that strengthen Granolah and Gas in order to make Goku stronger.
For me it's just that I really don't like Granolah or Gas as characters. I like Goku and Vegeta taking a back seat so we can focus on some other characters stories. But the characters we're given are brand new characters that have been thrust into the front of the story without any prior build up, and so we're being asked to care about these characters relationships and struggles before we even know who they are. As the arc has went on we have learned more about them, but it's too little too late. The story forced them into the front too soon, a lot of the story has already passed before we had any knowledge or connection to them as characters, so all that is left is to wait for it to end. The timing of events is backwards. You have to introduce the characters before you tell their stories, but instead they told stories about people we don't even know. Then on a purely personal note, I just hate revenge stories. Theyr bland, almost always nonsensical, and ultimately solve nothing by the end, and create frustrating character writing.
The main problem here is that this fan base to big to please everyone, no matter what DBS does in terms of plot and story direction there will always be people who won't like it. This arc as of now hasn't been as a good as the Moro arc yet but there has been a lot more good thats happened in this arc than bad.
I think the new movie will do a lot better at this idea of not having Goku and Vegeta be the center stage than the granola arc did because Gohan and Piccolo two fan favorite will be the main focus unlike this arc where it’s two factions we know little to nothing about and it’s hard to care for
To me they work as long as they won't get some wierd random offscreen power up. If not then to me they would be worse than granolah. I really liked them in moro arc.
Personally, I much prefer the Moro arc. This arc just doesn't feel as exciting. It feels smaller in scale with less travel and less characters involved. They do introduce some very interesting concepts, but they aren't explored as much as I would've liked. I mean, Vegeta reveals a brand new transformation, but he barely gets to use it. I get that this isn't his fight so the focus should be more on Granolah, but in that case, I'd rather they didn't show Vegeta's transformation at all. Save it for when it IS his story. Also don't like the whole wishing for ultimate power thing. Feels very cheap and unearned. And with only 2 Dragon Balls? Anybody could do that. We'd have an endless supply of ultimate enemies to fight if they all just made that wish one after the other. I'm already not fond of characters achieving a transformation or ultimate strength off screen, but at least you know they trained to earn it.
It's funny considering how DBM(Fan comic) had a Vegeta use IT well before Toyotaro did that. Also, recently they've been dishing out the manga for Dragon Ball Heroes, so that could be a deciding factor for alot of people, apart from the writing that they've gone with lately in Super.
I started losing interest when Granola showed up out of nowhere being the new "strongest being in the universe". Not only is Beerus supposed to be that but nearly every dragon ball villain shows up with that claim. Power does not equate to dangerous and instead of using aspects of Granola that are made him interesting such as his occupation, skills, and tools they just resorted to the bland and boring dragon ball staple of power. Then when Beerus started tearing apart Vageta's growth and maturity just because he wanted Vageta to be the next god of destruction, that was the final straw. They had something but threw it away for dragon ball staples that got boring in the Freeza Arc.
I just think wishing to be the strongest and it actually working for the villains at this point in the series feels cheap, but I think for what it is, the arc has me intrigued with the history of bardock and granola but I wanna see more of it before the arc wraps up and maybe that'll give us a unforseen ending that feels unique and different
For me, it is entirely because of Bardock's involvement. And no, Masako, it doesn't have anything to do with Bardock being a killer or nice guy. I don't like how Bardock's Minus incarnation devalues the themes of Dragon Ball ("Goku was sent to a trash planet because that's all he was good for, but that's what let him become a great defender of Earth and a great warrior-" Oh, wait. No. Nevermind. His kindhearted parents sent him to Earth for his own safety, and he's a kind warrior because his parents were kind warriors... Talk about making Goku, Raditz, and Vegeta look like idiots). I don't like absentee family members of the main characters are treated as important parts of the plot. It would have been better off if Bardock's involvement and Goku's connection to him was shrugged off as coincidence. "Bardock? Who's Bardock? I don't know any Saiyans. He looked like me? Vegeta, wasn't there a guidebook or movie pamphlet that said Low Class Saiyans tend to have similar hair styles? We do? Okay, that must be it." Bardock having beaten Gas, Goku wishing he knew about his dad, and Gas obsessing over how Goku ISN'T his dad is GENUINELY making me angry. And I really just wish that after Minus, Bardock was left untouched by everything except for Heroes. His mere association with this arc just kills a lot of my investment.
Same. Honest these day everything was make to show how Goku is special because he's the son of Bardock. No. Goku is special because he was raised by grandpa Gohan, taught by Roshi and become friend with Krillin, Bulma. The only thing that he might inherit from his father is the hairstyle and maybe the determination.
I’m still paying attention even if I’m not interested anymore and I think the issue with goku and vegeta stepping back is it isn’t they’re off somewhere. They’re just sitting there. Making you wonder “why are you even here then?” Yes the cell games did similar but we know nobody else stood a chance and they were dragged into fighting anyways
We shouldn't assume we know how the cerelian dragon works, we literally just saw one single wish made to it, by Granolah. We don't know how the wish to Gas was. For all we know, Shen Long would do the same thing if Granola asked to him, we don't know if every wish has a bad side effect.
Monaito could fuse with Dende, adding his years and merging the Cerelean Dragon Balls with Earth's as a third way out. (Shenron gaining Axotl qualities for the next wish would be a neat detail.) with the one and two star balls gaining either a quicker recharge time/ or simply only need 5 balls now. It could also age/grow Dende up a bit too, more for his GT apperance.
It's not that people are pissed the saiyans aren't doing anything and other characters are the focus, it's that THESE characters are the focus. Not the ones we've spent nearly 40 years getting to know and love. Nope, it's some random newbies who aren't all that interesting. If this was Gohan, Piccolo or just about any other character vs. bad guy, while vegeta and goku stood on the side, a lot more people would be engaged with it. Just think of the last time a side character stepped into the roll of main character in DB, Gohan. That was built up from the moment he was introduced until the end of the cell saga. An arc stretched across hundreds of chapters/episodes. We knew gohan, we liked gohan and we were happy to see him get his time to shine. It's an all time classic moment in DB and anime in general. Right now we're getting characters who we met like 5 minutes ago being given main character duties? It's not exactly rocket science to see why people are checked out.
Tbh the reason why I don’t like it is because it’s just a cheap way out to get power like there’s no real cost no great state and ect dbs gets away with too much things and it focuses too much on vegeta and goku why not give others a shot? Like bro it would be a lot more fun to watch a dbs like one animation I have in mind that has greater risk no dragon balls or ect or use those as a last resort
I’m still optimistic about this arc. Plenty of cards we can play still, like Oatmeel planning something, Goichi making a new robot, or Goku just using Instant Transmission to involve Frieza in the fight. My guess as to what the fans want: Vegeta getting a solo win against an arc villain like Gas or Elec, and THEN he and Goku sit on the shelf with Beerus and Whis to let Goten and Trunks have an arc or two.
I think on the Bardock thing is more of a "oh hey i know that guy" that everyone was excited to see and then turned into "Man he's changed....he isn't the same as he was 10 years ago". Most us dragon ball fans grew enamored by the cold and unforgiving saiyan who was loyal and had what's basically a brotherhood among his fellow saiyan compatriots. For him to have this change of heart cause he was reminded of his own son was a pretty big twist when the saiyan we knew didn't hold much care for them either. The saiyans have gradually been changing to be more sympathetic and kind which although isn't very new mind you, it's also causing them to lose their identity. Soon almost every saiyan (from old to new) will have a group that's kind and thoughtful and the only thing that's going to differentiate a Saiyan to an Earthling will be the tails and their powers. Personality wise and stigmas that we've come to know are basically becoming non existent so there's really no need to concern ourselves with what the saiyans are and how they behaved. Because now they are just earthlings with powers. THIS will be further cemented if Vegeta's brother comes in and he's married to the alien girl as shown in that one movie. Whatever the case, i'm still interested in the manga and want to see how it ends (though i said the same thing for Genshin and i abandoned that game for what little to contribution it's giving it's world building and story)
I do like it quite a bit, worth paraphrasing, so this is me being far more critical then needed for a young mans comic. Probably two things. 1) It requires a change in perspective for us to see Granola as a main character. The Broly movie spent a long time building up Broly as a perspective character that we could invest in before chucking him into a battle he was ill prepared for; we knew that he wouldn't win against Goku and Vegeta because they are the established power houses of the universe despite unlocking ridiculous combat potential through being the LLSSJ/wishing to be the strongest. The strength of that kind of plot arc depends that character to get us invested in that journey and generally, it isn't super exciting. One day Gandola wishes on the dragonballs, becomes the strongest and... chills out for a month? He doesn't even antagonise the Heeters? It worked for Broly because he was genuinely being forced into battle against his will, but Granola doesn't really seem to either have a will pressing in on him; nor is he proactively changing the status quo around him. So I just don't quite relate to him in the same way as the Broly movie did within that time frame. Personally I would've liked him more if he had become a full on anti-hero, bullying the Heeters around while they went along meekly with his demands; when really they merely used him as a ginnapig with the Dragonballs before they even bothered risking one of their own and used their enhanced knowledge to make a wish with a little more longevity. 2) Gas as the surprise villian is kinda dragging Granolas self discovery arc out a long time, even doing the Broly transformations. Personally, I feel the Manga is really pacy, but I'm bored of the "several transformations to pad out the story" kind of villain. I mean, Granola had already demonstrated that being the strongest was enough to one up Goku and Vegeta, Gas didn't really need the build up. Likewise, Gas has a rivalry with Granola which isn't really explored; like we are told they have a rivalry of sorts but we never see Gas get his face pushed in to warrant that. They are just two different people with different roles that happen not to like each other. So when Gas gets set up as both Granola's and Goku's nemesis? Ehh, it's fine. That being said, I like this arc and I like flipping the tropes and in particular really having Vegeta step up in mentoring Granola out of his self destructive slump. I brought that Gronola was the perspective character and it works much more to me then lame duck future Trunks, who scarcely did anything of substance.
I've always watched the reviews, but they just stopped showing in my feed. So hard that every month I've got to search the channel up and find the review.
I love this arc personally. I love the new character added and the new villains too. I love that goku and vegeta aren't the main people at this current moment. There is however a pacing issue imo. I really enjoy the long journey to that final fight. Might be why I like the filler of the original DBZ
MasakoX I'll give you a possible answer to the cold Bardock = good / good Bardock = bad thing. It's a mere case of presentation. Notice how this Bardock's 2 appearences all put more emphasis on him being all goody and lovable, and close to zero to being a fighter... THAT, is what people dislike, too much of a supposed bad man Bardock, being good for no reason at all! And notice how the moments where he is good, really lack any real reason... we see no development for him, to justify them, they all happen with just a background info that he is being mellowed out by Gine... but we do not see why or how, or when it happened. If these moments were more subtle; like Bardock simply saying that he forgot that Gine's second pregnancy ended, rather than making him look TOO MUCH like Goku with that comment on her belly, or him quickly dismissing Goku after checking his power level with the scouter, after a first moment of awe, it would have been better, because it wouldn't contradict in any significant way his supposed cold heart, since we are still needing an ACTUAL development for the events that supposely led him to become a warmer person.
Gotta love the Puns intended or not, I’m here for it!🙌🙌🙌🙌 Also Masako, I had rewatched the other world tournament arc and I know this is late (considered filler but not my point) , I noticed the race of people training from the Broly movie (dbz version). Made me think, so was Broly actually a thing or did comet camorie did the job. Fun tidbit that I wanted to share.
Meh im kind of on and off of dragonball. I mean super is good and has some interesting but i kind of not into dragonball as much as used to. To me their just trying to milk the franchise, especially the saiyans who yet again are always getting stronger, more powerful, and obtaining new transformations. Really the only thing keeping me in fandom are what if scenarios like what you do and few fan stories, comics, and art.
Fans definitely want the inclusion of saiyans, they just don't want it to be just about goku and Vegeta. In the last month the mere mention of bardock, speculation that they might be going to see broly, and an older pic of Goten and Trunks got fans more hyped than anything Granolah and Gas brought lol.
They could explore Hit's backstory if they wanted. He's got hundreds of years under the belt. Without exploring that he does feel lacking. I could guess his backstory a little. When you are an Assassin for hire, you do have to become cold to protect your sanity. He's been one for a long, long, long time.
I dropped the manga after Goku turned himself into a gundam against Moro, lmao. And this one is just so painfully boring to even remotely sit down and read. Shout out to you Masako, I like how you brought up the subject cause I feel like it needs to be talked about!
Let's be honest Masako, once the Anime comes out Toyotarou and the anime team at toie will just add in filler to simply fix what's wrong with the Moro and Granola arcs just to keep the fandom mostly the English fandom (let's be honest we're the ones that carry more toxicity compare to the Japanese fandom no matter if it is the minority.) Happy.
I mean, the Granolah Saga is a pretty mixed bag. And Z could be mixed as well, but Z's following started out during the "cartoons are for children" years - people would put on a show of leaving it behind, but they'd still think about it sometimes. And since it was before having internet connection was assumed, people took it or left it. Super, though, exists in the internet age, and moreover I find people care a whole lot more about what everyone else likes. But as for plusses, I think the character development has been solid - even though Grano got annoying for a while, I think he's recovered nicely and matured from it all, and I like the direction Vegeta, and to a lesser extent Goku, are going. Minuses, the Cerealean Dragon Balls reek of MacGuffin far more than the Earth or Namek ones ever did; they very much have the feel of a convenient plot-device that will be thrown away once the arc is done. As well, while Toyo has been doing a good job splitting the limelight between Goku, Vegeta and Grano, Grano is a new character and people won't just gravitate to him instantly, and all the rest of the supporting cast is just not there. Being fully real here, I expect we'll look back with relative fondness on the Granolah Saga. Once it's not the new current trending top10selling thing. Maybe that means we'll be pining for Gas and Elec in the middle of next saga, or maybe that means when Super is a complete package and we have the whole rest of the series to compare it to. People are forever comparing the pros and cons of Frieza/Cell/Buu, and I suspect that once Super is done, people will do the same for Moro/Granolah-and-Heeters/whoever comes after that. For my part, I'd like to see Toyo work a little more with what he has, rather than trying to constantly expand, and that was where Moro did really well - the main villain and his underlings were the only thing that was really "new," and the rest was just built on foundation rather than conjured into the air. Granolah seemed to try and retro-fit that with the Bardock stuff, even though it was pretty clear it was going to happen from square 1. tl;dr: There's no accounting for taste, and I think Toyotaro is doing the Toyotaro thing of making the last fight take too long.
What if Bulma was evil? As for how her once kind mindset could occur akin to like Lex Luthor, here's what I got: 1) She has a different reaction to seeing so many instances of Goku becoming the Great Ape and figures he's not human and could become a threat in the future, so she goes all Batman from Batman v. Superman on him OR 2) Capsule Corp gets absorbed by the Red Ribbon Army, forcing her to work for them as "Agent Cobalt", only really wanting the Dragonballs for the selfish but slightly noble reason of wanting her organization to be free again OR even Goku isn't able to stop the RRA in time, meaning they get their wish to make themselves the rules of the world and in turn, Bulma turns her back on her friend since now Capsule Corp's forced to become another division of the Red Ribbon Army.
I just don’t like Granola. I know it’s stupid but I hate the whole “wish for ultimate power” thing. I am enjoying other things, such as Goku and Vegeta but I mean….if they were gonna do it, pick a character we already know.
Idk if I’m late cuz I think you only check comments within the first hour of posting but are you ever going to continue what if Raditz never came to Earth? It was a really intriguing story, I think it deserves some love.
I get that people aren't interested in the story, because there isn't much story to be interested in. Probably due to it being a monthly manga and thus it feels much longer, and the story from the Granolah Arc is literally. Granolah wants revenge, fights Goku, then Vegeta then realizes the truth, then fights Gas. There is just not anything to be interested in, and the fights are only interesting if the plot shows a proper reason for them to fight
@@zetamangads I wasn't sure the monthly releases were the problem, it was something I thought could be a factor. But I don't think Toyotaro and Toriyama do this on purpose, because they do talk about how many stories they want to expand for Granolah. It's just that their execution of storytelling is just not good with many pacing problems. Toriyama always made very simple and easy to understand stories, so I didn't expect Naruto type of annoying storytelling just like when Super was announced and ran for 2 or 3 years, but I just wished they tried a bit harder with the story
You're not wrong. After a few issues in, I just stopped caring about the Granona/Gas arc. Personally, I'm just not interested in any of the characters. Maybe it's not being presented properly. Or maybe because it's just more of Goku and Vegeta fighting new enemies somewhere else. And I don't know what happened to that Android that Moro absorbed but survived. Lol.
Well, ok. I get that the Paradox in theory. Half the fans want to see Goku & Vegeta do things, but other fans want to see other characters do things. The problem in this arc is that... well, Granola and Gas... suck. It's like watching that Co-Worker you don't like, go and fight against that Boss you don't like. You don't really care who wins. If anything, you want both of them to take a L. We'll get to see if the Paradox is really true, if DBS: Super Hero does good or not. Again, Goku and Vegeta aren't taking the lead and characters we know and love are. If that doesn't take off, then the Paradox is real. But I hope fans of the current arc recognize just how un-interesting... now just not compelling... that Granona, Gas or any of the other characters are. And I did forget how people reacted when Bardock was in the Manga. I don't mind that Bardock wasn't completely brutal. But I would also like them to use that kindness of Bardock & Gene and direct it towards Raditz. Show us that Raditz (as a kid) loved his parents and family. That Raditz too wasn't a super cruel Saiyan. He did come to Earth JUST to pick up Goku. They could turn that into Raditz actually caring for Goku, just not being able to show it because of his lack of power and status of servitude to Nappa & Vegeta.
Pros for me .Gas is ruthless threatening antagonist .Elec a unique character for Db. . Non Saiyan fight Gas vs Granola breath of fresh air. .Think the fights were pretty good . I think the Heaters our cool Cons .Mui was done dirty .Vegeta Ultra Ego was trash . Monaito no words . Wishing too be the strong is kinda cool but lazy. . Granola how he found the last Dragon Ball tv was badly done. Some people really hate this arc. But me look forward too each chapter. Gas is one of my new favorite Super characters.
I see Gas as resentful towards Granola because he's unfinished business for him. If you remember, he talks about his bad memories with Granola's home planet and it seems like he's upset that he failed to eliminate him and now his brother has refused to let him finish it for years.
For me its the lack of Information that turns me off. Be it the thing with the 2 Ball Dragon, whatever the stuff was with that necklace, or the strange powers they got from said Dragon. For me its like this. 2 Guys use a charakter boost to the max lvl without knowing what class it will be and decide to play ranked pvp without knowing what 99% of the stuff they just got will do. and it works out because... Plot
The tournament of power was so good because we got to see some old characters become relevant again. If they would’ve kept that momentum going, I think Dragon Ball could have had one hell of a renaissance. Instead of giving someone like Piccolo, Gohan, or even Krillin the spotlight for a while, we get a brand new character out of nowhere who is now on par with gods. It is really difficult for me to care about this new fan fiction looking dude when my man, Piccolo, has been denied for far too long.
I haven't actually read the manga yet, but I suspect this is gonna be one of those things thats way more enjoyable when read all at once, but is hell when reading it monthly.
A friend of mine stopped reading because Vegeta once more was beaten after showing off a brand-new form. Once more, Vegeta gets denied the win... something that I've noticed some people tend to latch onto. I disagree with the assessment that Vegeta was holding back against Granolah, I was under the impression that it wasn't that he was holding back, but rather he found it too difficult to fully engage in the same mindset that he had in early Z time period. He's matured and evolved too much to be able to fully utilize Ultra Ego in the way he is trying to, and goes on to say something much to that effect in the Shonen Jump translation. From then on, V-man performs a similar role as he did in the ToP, supporting other characters by giving energy or senzu beans to them. (Though he could have probably split the bean with Granolah and done things a bit differently but Senzu beans have always been a bit strange in their ruleset) Honestly the wish thing is just an effect of narrative causality, they needed to make him strong enough to fight the Saiyans and short of wishes, there's very little conceivable way to close that power gap without having him undergo some kind of training from an angel or something. ... But there's not a good reason for Whis to look at Granolah when he's training Goku and Vegeta. With the information that Namekians come from a different dimension entirely, that also opens up the thought for dragonballs to be even greater in number and all across the universes leading to more shenanigans throughout the universe and other plot options. The fact is that the wish for power is something that many, many people have wondered why it didn't happen sooner. Now that is has happened canonically people are backpedaling and calling it bad writing, but this seems like a logical progression to me. Even better that it wound up having a monkey's paw effect. Bonus points for it happening twice, in my opinion. That actually leads to my next counterpoint... There is character growth of a sort within Elec and Macki. Oil might get some through Macki but we'll just have to wait and see, I think. When Elec starts getting cold feet about Granolah, his initial intent is to have the dude get owned by Frieza, but after Granolah gets super-powered overnight, he adapts and sets out to learn more. His plan is still the same but now he intends for Granolah to take down Goku and Vegeta... and then apply that same growth to Gas. Now he's gone from outsourcing mercenaries to working with what he has in-house. That's pretty logical too. Macki's discontent for Elec's recklessness regarding them has been shown, but I feel like we just aren't seeing the effects of it yet. I'd give it one more push before she finally realizes that Elec isn't good for her family. I'm fairly certain that will come back into view after we have a look at what the latest chapter has added in as well, and once we get done with Jiren 2.0- I mean Gas' individual beef with Bardock coming out. I'm posting this after the newest chapter has dropped, but I'm personally more engaged then ever. I'm super excited to see what happens in chapter 83, to see the Prince of all Saiyans and Granolah fighting again... We might even see Gogeta again, though despite being "the strongest in the universe" I'm not convinced that Gogeta will be necessary here. As you stated at the end, Frieza could show up, and I'm pretty sure that he will, even if it'll be in the last several chapters of the arc.
I agree on what the good parts of this saga are. The idea, the connection with the Saiyan history. That's pretty cool, but... it barely seems to connect with our main cast. Goku actually cares little for Saiyan history. And if one of your two main characters doesn't care about what's going on *why should the readers* ? This is more something I'd be interested in seeing as a spin-off or a separate, fan-made manga. I think what turns me off is just they are getting *beyond* ridiculous with the "I am the strongest in the universe!" "No, *I* am the strongest in the universe!" Yeah, yeah, we've had increasing levels of strength and all that pretty much since the Freeza Saga, and it was slowly being ridiculous there, too. But here... it's the fact that they are already set to "strongest" from the get go, *then* keep adding. "Maximum Over Saiyan", you know? The other being that, it doesn't feel like this is anything that should have to do with Goku and Vegeta, anyway. It's a separate matter, solely Granolah's fight and his beef with the Heeters. The characters *we know* are just spectators. The characters we don't know and, frankly, care little to not at all about, are the ones fighting. This could take place off-screen, and it would make 0 difference to the cast. And that's not getting into the fact that the Heeters, while a neat design, are... pretty freaking bland. Okay, so the leader is a sadistic jerk. Gas is a pissy little brat that wants to fight Granolah because I don't even know anymore why. And the rest have barely any personality, I don't even remember most of their names! It makes me think of Bojack and his troup. I mean, kinda neat designs, but the personality is not really fleshed out. Granted, you don't want to put too much personality into a one-saga villain, but Buu had more personality, and he started off as a fun-destruction-loving goofball.
My only complaint with this arc is how rushed it feels. Did they decide these new dragon balls only need a couple of weeks to recharge or something to satisfy plot convenience? They introduced Granola as this epic bounty hunter and then immediately ditch developing that to make him a stepping stone that's destiny seems to be getting pummeled by the next guy that has the exact same wish made for him. It always feels so rushed now, and that's my only complaint because I've honestly loved every arc in super to follow the ToP
Very good points Masako! I think if Goku brought Gas to Broly instead of Whis to buy time I would have been interested again. We could have gotten a little bit of tag teaming with Goku and Broly vs Gas.
I am at the point were the super manga lost me so hard I only look at it for the pictures. I know any character seen in the end of Z will be fine and I don’t care what happens to any of the new characters. The story has no stakes for me.
I'm calling it now, Goku asks to meet his dad for the next arc. Unintentionally screwing something up along the way and kicking off another villain and/or threat to the Universe.
Can you do another OC video, but for Dragon Ball crossovers, like Frieza Race Mandalorians, or a Kryptonian raised on Yardrat? Jedi Namekians? To Love Ru - Dragon Ball crossover? Shang Chi as a god of destruction in the lost 6 universes?
They never should have introduced another dragon into the main story. Especially one who's easy to summon. Plus we still haven't seen what sort of consequence from Elec's wish. Powering up antagonists like this took away from other story elements that could've made them more intriguing to read. We just have one huge fight like with Moro where we know what the likely outcome is going to be.
Characters like the Heaters just don't work in a world with cosmic level super powers. Information and blackmail mean nothing if the person your trying to manipulate can just blow up you and your colleagues in an instant. They had to pull the Gas wish just to be relevant in the story. Ultimately forgoing their initial character archetype all together.
All I can see Frieza do is come there from a message being sent out for him to catch on. He'll arrive, be told he can finally be rid of the two saiyans, only to back-stab the one who called him and say something along the lines of; "I would prefer to put them down myself." and have is merry way from the place for some personal reason.
I’m loving this arc but every month I forget it’s coming out until I see the reviews are out. Sometimes I let it build up a few chapters so I can read more in one sitting. I think it needs to have smaller chapters and get released more frequently, like you said before.
I've been enjoying the yin yang motif (in terms of revenge) between Vegeta and Granolah and gas. Granolah representing revenge against Freeza and Gas representing revenge against Goku. In terms of Ultra Ego I see it as Vegeta's version of SSJ3 (hence the lack of eyebrows).
I suspect that the upcoming movie has fans already looking ahead of this arc. I think that this saga made a lot of or hinted at a lot of promises for what we could hope to expect. At this point it seems very unlikely that Granola will confront Frieza and 73's role and importance to the plot has seemingly been forgotten. Additionally the pacing has been off. Granola found the Dragonball too quickly and conveniently to invest in his struggle and journey. I personally don't think that Vegeta should have unlocked ultra ego in this saga. I would have preferred a much longer build to this transformation through training with Beerus more. I felt that the Granola arc could have been an opportunity to tell a story that developed more of Granola 's world as it was showing at the beginning of this saga. Instead it turned in to another exploration of the saiyan's past which could have been saved for another arc. I'm indifferent to Bardock's role to this story although I am somewhat intrigued by the possibility of Goku's character development following remembering his mother and father, but that's as far as it goes. Perhaps the ending might be interesting but unless they have another eight months left of this arc, I can't see how an intriguing set up can be made. That's why I am not that interested all that much in this saga.
Dragon ball super is not meant for the fans who enjoyed DBZ back in the toonami days! DBSuper is for kids there’s no blood the action scenes are terrible and not fluid at all. It’s time they put Dragon ball to rest
I stopped at the first 2 episodes of GT and into the ToP in DBS. The Buu Saga was a slog to get through. DB just doesn't feel as intense or meaningful as it once did. If it did feel that way, people would continue watching these arcs in droves.
I think the fact that we have to wait so long for chapters interrupts the flow of the story. Every story is interpreted differently when you read it straight through without interupption
I find the Bardock hate weird. i dont think people understand that they need to also put Goku into the equation and go 'So its both nature AND nurture that made Goku not a bloodlusty murderer.'
It's lazy writing, Raditz, Vegeta and Nappa were proud warrior conquerors and judging by their own accounts and later on Frieza, pretty much every Sayian was like this. If Bardock was somehow "different/good/special", which he wasn't (one of the best parts and I'd argue the entire point of the Bardock special was exactly how he was such an insignificant part in the grand scheme of things I know that isn't cannon, but that is the sole reason for them to be bringing him back in any capacity Minus/Broly movie included), it's still lazy writing, that only know and after years of dealing with Vegeta would Goku be informed about something like this.
The problem is they introduce new heroes and villains, with weak-at-best connections to anything in previous stories, and who only care about fighting each other. That's not a Dragonball story anymore. That's a new story with Dragonball in it. Top it off with the previous main characters only being there to job out and provide commentary on how cool the new guy is? That's some Mary Sue fanfic BS. Not saying what they're doing is bad per se, but that it would have been better if it was not Dragonball. The license is hurting it. If it absolutely *must* be Dragonball, then call it "Dragonball Universe" or something... differentiate it from "core" Dragonball.
This arc is ok but nothing special so far. It repeats itself. Vegeta and Goku have been up and down. Oatmeel and Monaito waste of space. Granolah gets the DBs easy as pie. This story just isn't captivating.
I think for me, it's just become repetitive and peaked? Like, Toriyama who co writes it, seems to fall back on the old style of writing, 1 on 1 fights most of the time, Vegeta getting an L to the main threat, Goku getting a hang on a new form, and DB has very confusing forms of power scaling and consistency, cause extremely powerful people come out of nowhere and they try to tie them into the plot. I don't wanna sound nasty, but lately, the villains aren't that interesting or in-depth. In fact, it feels like they're kind of regressing them and the only admirable trait they seem to have is their power level, which again presents the issue of consistency. Nothing is really is really that surprising anymore and we know everything's fine by the end of Z, so you're not really worried nor are you that interested as to how it gets there.
im just annoying that their focusing on the wrong side characters. the z-team or universe 6 saiyans are characters that have been built up enough for have interactions that most people want to see. i think the current arc using villains from the saiyans past is a step back. imo I think the story could be more interesting if we saw what the universe that didn't compete in the TOP are like or what the completely destroyed universes were like. DB was getting a larger and larger story and draging it all back down this arc felt like steps in the wrong directions
I honestly just think, between these last 2 arc, these are just ideas, to see what ideas they can throw into the dragon world. Do the fans like a faster story, or a detact story, see the training, not see the training etc.... then basing the sales and views etc... as a guide to build a new arc
There is one more big thing that could happen for this saga, Goku getting a new form, now it does actually make sense and I'll explain, Goku is almost always one step ahead of Vegeta Saiyan Saga: Goku: Kaioken Vegeta: Base form Namek Saga: Goku: SSJ Vegeta: Base form Cell Saga: Goku: SSJ grade 4 Vegeta: SSJ grade 3 Buu Saga: Goku: SSJ3 Vegeta: SSJ2 Battle of Gods: Goku: SSJG Vegeta: SSJ2 Resurrection F: Goku: SSJB Vegeta: SSJB U6 vs U7: Goku: SSJB Kaioken Vegeta: SSJB (this is different in the manga) Zamasu: Goku SSJB Kaioken Vegeta: SSJB (this is different in the manga) ToP: Goku: MUI Vegeta: SSJBE (so in the manga it's SSJB Evolved and there are slight differences compared to SSJB Evolution) I'm leaving out the current Saga due to it not being completed, though this pattern tells me it's likely Goku will get a new form or power up, it happens in almost every Saga Moro: Goku: MUI Vegeta: SSJBE
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For me the Granola arc is lacking mystery, build up and intrigue. It's been a drag fight after fight after fight on planet Cereal.
Firstly I feel Granolahs wish changing from instantly making him stronger to instead putting him in some sort of time chamber like once that he’d trap himself in until he got strong enough.
Thus would make his stubbornness towards attacking Goku and Vegeta make sense as he would hav even training for that one moment for hundreds of years in his own.
Secondly I don’t think Monaito dying would fix things like you think as the thing people don’t like about Toronbo would have STILL happened in this arc. Sure he’ll never be used again but he still have weighted down on this arc in the eyes of fans, in fact him disappearing might actually make fans hate him more as he’ll seem like even more of a cheap plot devise as he is now.
Thirdly the reason people are upset aren’t because Goku and Vegeta are taking a step back, it’s HOW they are taking a step back. It doesn’t feel like it was set up properly because they were JUST given new power ups. Goku advancing his training in Ultra Instinct and Vegeta getting an all new form.
If they were planning for them to take a step back in this arc they shouldn’t have given them such build up that made the fans expect and want them to be used.
We want to become far less important but we don’t want it done with the same respect as retiring a flag. We want it down with respect and patience, not for them to be abruptly torn down and pushed it the side by something unrecognizable.
I do doubt you’ll even see this comment but if you do, thanks for reading though by pointless essay.
Yes, the db fandom is full of contradictions... HOWEVER, I would say that the arc itself is at fault for this...
Like, you build stuff, and then... you waste chapters and chapters over fights and fights. EXACTLY like in the past. What is different here? Oh, Goku has now mastered the u.i. even more! Annnd, he loses anyway, always and ever. Vegeta got a new form! Annd he loses anyway.
The Heeters do not rely on brute force! And the first thing they do with the dragon balls is to power up one of them...
If there really is all this interesting story for the Heeters and Granolah, or for Goku and Vegeta, why not give us more chapters where they act like people, in a calmer enviroment, and can better show off their other perks, other than being the usual screaming morons?
Why not have the fight end when Monaito interrupts it, then some time passes in which we see the Heeters moving toward their actual goal, Granolah reconsider his life, and Goku and Vegeta doing the same for the latest events, AND THEN, they meet again and fight a powered up Gas, while Elec has already explained his goal, and so him "having to do something else" is far more compelling, because it's not a mystery overly built on itself, and that thus can be an even bigger let down?
I have a few ideas for how to fix some of these issues
Firstly: don't let Vegeta just pull out Ultra Ego, yes he's been "training" with Beerus but it was skimmed over and felt the power/form was "given to him". Let him lead with/expand on the techniques he learned in the last arc, he can absorb energy now, let him siphon off Granolas power throughout the fight, only for him to hit a cap that he can't absorb any more and his body can't take it, and Granola still has overwhelming power. Have Ultra Ego hinted add and bleed in a few little nudges here and there light maybe still show that the more damage he takes his attacks r getting a little more powerful, not on par with Ultra Ego itself but enough for some of the characters to point it out.
Secondly: touch on Gas's and Granolas rivaly a little more in the beginning of the arc.
Thirdly: extend the flash back. These r 40 page chapters so u can fit a whole "arc" into 3 or 4 chapters this takes the focus off the present and gives Bardock time to breathe, maybe have his "softer" side only show up around Gine, only for him to become ruthless while "on the job" this gives fans a chance to see both sides of the character, and have the softer side reappear later when he sees Granola and his mother and maybe only because it reminds him of Gine and Goku. Show bits and pieces of Frieza doing business with someone and reveal later its the Heaters, then use that as a Segway to maybe have a 2 chapter backstory for Granola and Gas and how this ordeal affected both of them. This gives u a entire "arc" in only 5 chapters and gives more build up/pay off when we snap back to the present and Gas in his "full power" shows up.
Lastly: show the heaters getting more information from 73 and actually USING it. Maybe even information on Goku and Vegeta from their fight with him when he was fused with Morro and use that to their advantage. Could also build up more mystery around what Alec had to give the dragon as collateral and expand more on Gas's seeming dislike of the fact that he had to rely on the wish to get this strong as its brought up but only in one speech bubble. And kinda touching on my last point about the flashbacks what if it was shown that the other 2 did actively doubt Alec's plans, but were scared into compliance buy the showing of Alec working with Frieza and wiping out Cereal. Or hint at the fact that maybe they were brainwashed/modified to be absolutely loyal.
Just some thoughts.
Shobedidappdidoo Shobedidappdidoo Shobedidappdidoo my name is Wabuu
I think the main problem is for every step forward its two steps back for the manga. Both moro and the heeters were unique villains with unique powers and motives. But then they turned into 'fighting man's characters and fell back on old tropes.
The manga is too scared to take risks, or if it does take risks it does so for a fleeting moment before going back into the comfort zone.
People are losing interest because we've basically seen the same thing over and over and subconsciously it..just gets tedious.
Actually as non canon as I'm about to say, check out CallMeARJ on RUclips about his current Ultra Vegitto series he came up with. I won't spoil it since if an idea like that be implemented into Dragonball, that will really grab the viewer's attention.
I'd like to see more Saiyan backstory from way back but I'd also like to see them explore Frieza's race and expand on their lineage and how they came to prominence throughout the universe considering the Kais knew about him, Beerus knew about him and then there's Babidi with Buu to consider, I'd love to see how they found out about him. There's so much lore available left unused.
The same is true about DBZ baddies.
TBF, I think Toei operates under the motto: "If it ain't broke ,don't fix it"
But then... DBS: Super Hero...
@Josh Leonard you assume his race is prominent and not just his family.
@@JordonPatrickMears11211988 no, I'm sure it's just his family, but I'd love to see more of his race as it is. Closest we have right now is Frost and he's a freak in his own universe just like Frieza is in his.
I'm sorta just sick of this "only one person can fight at a time" stuff they keep doing. I guess it's a pride or honor thing? But if Vegeta had shared a bean with Granolah and they'd teamed up, I think it would have been a lot more hype.
People want Vegeta to beat a big bad, I think? Having Goku on the sidelines and giving Granolah a chance to beat up the Heaters would have been nice. I'm also not used to reading monthly updates like this, but it kinda feels like not enough happens in each section as opposed to all the cool stuff that was happening during Moro.
I could be totally off with this, but this is why I personally am not feeling this saga as much as the last.
Yeah, your off
Awesome seeing you here! And yeah I agree, it just seems like not as much is happening each month to keep me invested personally.
Nice wrong opinion
The only reason I care so much about this aspect of the story though is because I am writing a fan work for DBZ that does use them as a unit during battles rather than a series of 1 on 1s.
Heh. Didn't know you were also a Dragon Ball fan- though, I guess I shouldn't be terribly surprised, as there is a fair bit of overlap between Sonic and Dragon Ball (I mean, maybe you've made DB references in your vids before, but I likely just figured you knew stuff 'cause of the Internet / fandom osmosis). Anyways, cool seeing ya here.
I've been really enjoying this arc. Showing Bardock was really nice and ultra ego vegeta was cool too even though it didn't really last that long. And even though, I love Goku, I absolutely love that he isn't the main focus and he KNOWS that this isn't his fight. And I really like granolah....even though him being the strongest by him making a wish wasn't that cool but I didn't pay too much mind. But I understand why people don't like this arc and that's fine.
Here's my question. If it's not Goku's fight, if it's not Vegita's fight, and they're the main characters, why should we care about the fight at all? It's not the "main characters" fight, and it's not the "side characters" (the z fighters) fight, why should we care?
@@MJ-jd7rs Dude it's not all about Goku and Vegeta you do know that right?
@@fadjabarry2022 but unlike other shounen manga, only goku and vegeta matter in dragon ball
@@fadjabarry2022 this is like watching a Superman movie only to see John Dallas fight dug brown.
Who are those characters? They made them up for the movie. Where’s Superman you ask? He’s sitting out, this is John’s fight.
Tell me, you enjoying your “Superman” movie?
@@fadjabarry2022 Goku is the main character. It's always about him. It'll always be about him. And it's his fight too. He's literally fighting a dude with a grudge against his father.
I feel the problem with Bardocks now canon expanded backstory about him being nicer is that it makes Gokus whole origin more and more like Supermans, sent off by parents who were different than the rest of their race to keep him safe from the destruction of their home planet and to grow up into a good person. In the original backstory Bardock was the textbook example of a Saiyan, only really interested in battle and not even caring about his own son because he was weak, Goku only escaping the destruction of his home planet with a combination of luck and the way his culture wages war in sending out very young Saiyans to destroy worlds or be destroyed themselves. He's not some destined messiah like figure, he's a basic bog standard Saiyan who proved they could be better than what his people were if they had tried.
The original special was like that as well , a man who foresaw the destruction of the planet but no one else believed him?
I did like the small aspect of bardock being just a tad kinder than the rest in the way that he wanted for once to build something rathwr than destroy.
He was a scientist once upon a time.. afterall.
@@Nerdthatdreamsofelectricsheep
It wasn't as much similiar as the new one, and it still had very significant differences.
@@Nerdthatdreamsofelectricsheep While that's true, at least that Bardock's character set him aside compared to Jor-El's motivations. Bardock didn't even believe the visions at first until they hammered their way in. He didn't even play an active role in trying to save his son compared to his minus counterpart. Which means Goku's initial reasoning to go to Earth was to destroy it and then a mishap happend that prevented him from doing it. Now it is just a straightforward Superman like circumstance as it turns out he was indeed sent to Earth to be safe.
I love this comment I said the same thing but people disagree with it all the time
It's pretty much the same with the Moro saga it actually start out strong at first, but it slowly got worse during the final battle and the ending was just nonsense before Granolah made his debut.
*got worsE
And this is why you never have hopes about Dragon Ball at all.
Not really. It's the opposite,the beginning of the arc was boring and then it got better when they arrived at planet cereal.
@@smilelydogge2821 so literally all of Granolah's setting? cause i think in the same episode the cast is in beerus planet they also reach cereal planet
I think when people say things like "I'm sick of Goku/Vegeta, I want the focus to be on someone else," they usually mean someone like Piccolo, Krillin, or even Gohan. Not someone who's just debuting. For the most part, people just want to see their favorite characters get some shine and not be overshadowed or made irrelevant by the lead characters.
If I'm being totally honest, I think Goku and Vegeta are boring, with Vegeta being the better, more layered character of the two.
So when you mentioned Frieza, I had a thought. What if Frieza ended the arc by cheapshotting Gas and/or Elec and that is what kickstarted the next arc? Oil and Maki are the only ones remaining and we’d basically see the villains of the last few arcs have to deal with Frieza. Hell, you can throw Cooler in there for added peril.
I'd like to see the entire Cold family come back for the next arc. Definitely make for some interesting dialogue.
For the whole paradox thing, it's the same thing with captain marvel in the MCU, they shoe horn in a character who's never appeared but we're told how powerful and super important she is. You can't throw in a new character with no personality, make them the strongest in the series and expect us to care about them and not be annoyed when they get the win over characters we've spent years getting invested in. In the moro saga and tournament of power it was characters we'd known for decades like Tien, Piccolo, the androids ect. It's not that fans don't want a character to win, but rather we want characters who have been tossed away to get to shine and get the attention. If Granolah had been introduced a few years ago and grown to this point, people would probably love it. Imagine if Kaba was the one who made the wish. The fans would love it, and that was just a character who was set up a year or so prior to the tournament of power.
I think this is it. It isn’t that people want “characters other than the Saiyans” to get time to shine, it’s that we want other members of the main roster to get time to shine.
I hate captain marvel, but I actually really like granola 1 as a character, 2 design wise, 3 and origin.
@@rnguice3489 i hate Granolah but I really like the potential of Captain Marvels character
@@rnguice3489 oh agreed. I am not a fan of his character, but his design is solid and how he got the powers makes way more sense than "my weird plane crashed and that gave me god mode that surpasses gods and the stone that gave me god mode. OMZ I'm so special"
@@Majorblack same
When we said we wanted less goku and Vegeta we meant we wanted Gohan, Piccolo, Krillen, Tien and the like involved and doing thing, not new characters we’ve never met getting huge power ups by wish granting shenanigans.
gotta respect masako for his hard work
I second this!
And they say warm cereal is supposed to be healthier for you
Firstly where the hell is Frieza, secondly the action and story feels campy AF, the powerup the dragon provides is absurd and a instant turnoff. Also they teased Bardock, but it doesnt seems its gonna have any lasting effect
I just want dragon ball to return to the small screen. Yes super hero look interesting (even if I don't really like the look of the cg), but I would just like to sit in front off the tv and enjoy 20/30 minutes of DB on a weekly base. At first I thought they where just waiting until the manga was ahead enough for them to just start adapting without worrying about the manga. However, at this point it feels like it's just canceled, never to return again. Idk maybe they never planned on bringing it back to begin with, but I always thought that it was just around the corner.
On a more serious note, the voice actors aren't getting any younger either and I would prefer the original cast to have the chance to complete the series. We already lost Hiromi Tsuru (RIP) and at the ripe age of 85, it is not unsurprising if we would lose Masako Nozawa soon as well. Obviously I hope she lives to at least 100, but realistically that is unlikely to happen.
Same problem with all of Super every interesting villain devolves into a stronger form Morroh, Granolah and Hit all had this problem where there power is just overcome by being stronger while they all had interesting concepts that should teach Goku to go beyond just random powerups.
Also the constant we get beat up heres a fast healing item is such a tired trope. Even more tired than the main character showing up late was in DB/DBZ.
The hero showing up late is the one that's always annoyed me the most. It's fine when done occasionally and right but not every time.
The showing up late part for the hero hasn't really happend much in Super if at all, so not sure where that's coming from. Though arguably that worked well in Z as it did actually allow other characters to actually do stuff.
@@Naruku2121 I'm saying that Supers trope is even more tired than the showing up late trope was in Z...
@@MCPhatman You mean the one, where some one or the villian just becomes super strong in mid battle cause they 'adapted' mid fight? If so I see your point.
@@Naruku2121 That coupled with the random transformations it just seems like every fight is copy pasted.
Glad I’m not the only one who’s felt this saga feels a bit…off like it hasn’t had anything particularly stupid but idk it just didn’t grip my attention the way the moro saga did more excited for super hero (the gohan movie) lol
There has certainly been a lot of ups and downs, but overall I am decently interested and what comes next usually. Can't wait to see where the story goes!
It been dragging out too long this is like the 16th chapter of it and it’s been non stop fighting you can only hold intrest for so long on a monthly toyotaro doesn’t seem to get that
Honestly I really like this arc, there's more to it than face value. Pretty deep storytelling.
@@anshilpaul6152 Especially for Super's standards
To me it feels like it has over stayed its welcome. The saga should have ended a few chapters ago in my opinion
It feels like the arc is in the finale but there are no 'real' stakes. People are fighting with each other because they have some motiviations, sure, but there is no big looming threat that seems big enough to warrant attention. It's like a little sidequest but not much more. Vegeta getting a form is cool but the occasion doesn't seem to fit, it's just cause he is training and needed practice. It was not a meaningful situation like for Gokus UI which was crucial for the universe to survive. Bardock involved is also cool, but Goku and Vegeta don't seem to care THAT much anyway, it has no further implications on the broader plot. Just some interspersed but ultimately fruitless lore.
The heeters gang should have been a bigger thing than what they currently show. A smart empire to rival Freeza, able to blackmail the heroes and impose critical winning and losing conditions. They just seem like a self-important leader, two goons and one fighter without enough personality or background to care about.
Just imagine them ACTUALLY being able to get earth into their empire with the heroes having no choice but to obey them for the time beeing due to Gas + them having the 2 Dragonballs (+ hostages?) , that could have been pretty fun.
I tapped out after Gas became the strongest in the universe, Granolah doing it first rubbed me the wrong way and I still don’t like the way how they made both characters this powerful just so they can pose a threat to Goku and Vegeta. If this arc was the very first one of DBS that took place shortly after BOG then this whole premise could have worked seamlessly, but after the Moro Arc this story feels really out of place and it just keeps getting more ridiculous as time goes on.
We've got a whole discussion about THAT. Why Gas is destined for obscurity.
Ever since Frieza had thoughts about being immortal, I always thought what it would be like if someone actually wished for something OP like that.
I didn't mind Granolah doing it but when Gas did it, I didn't care for it. Either way, I am still usually interested to see what comes next month to month.
@@Nintendo_Wolf I didn't think either one of them was immortal. Goku Black was, and Zeno obliterated that timeline because of it.
@@jmsmys13ify That arc never happened for me lmao
I would have actually preferred if this was how frieza grew stronger. The 6 months training bugged me soo much.
That said using this lazy writing on not one but two completely new characters is just as dumb.
I feel like my biggest issues with the arc currently are Gas and the choreography?
With Gas, it just feels weird to have this guy that Goku and Vegeta cant seem to beat, with them hinting at a "How did Bardock beat this guy back in the day? What was his secret?" when I feel like with Goku and Vegeta's experience, and with the way Gas is fighting, its no different then any other baddie they have fought thats stronger than them. It just feels really weird that they are so shocked by Gas's fighting style and techniques.
Then the last chapter kinda was frustrating with some of the choreography with Goku jumping around from trains and buildings and what not. While it is cool to see, it just seems so pointless when Goku is able to fly? Like made sense in the tournament of power for the rule of no flying, but now that there isn't a rule, seeing Goku have to leap from one thing to jump off another just feels against the character and the rest of the fights throughout Super and Z. Or the fact that Goku got hit by a train and is just stuck to the side of it struggling. When he gets punched through mountains on a normal basis.
Maybe its like Power Scaling feels weird this arc I guess is the complaint?
The way Goku moves is like how GT felt. Of them purposely not doing things he does on the normal, or he's fighting out of character, just so the fight "key moments" can make sense, like firing so many blasts at Super 17 so Super 17 can power up even though Goku doesn't typically fight like that.
Its things like that when my interest starts to fall for this series.
"Watch out Goku! Gas is throwing a train at you! Quick jump outta the way!" When, if he's focused and paying attention, should be able to just tear through the train. Or just...fly around it. Or something.
Personally i really like the Grenolah saga and like it even better than Moro. Yes I'll admit it's not perfect but when has Dragon Ball ever been perfect, it's good. I prefer the nicer Bardock and am always excited to see where the manga goes. As for 73 i hope he shows up next arc but i wouldn't be at all surprised if Toyotaro completely forgot about him, as for something i recommend this channel cover i'd love a What if Bulma Got her wish for a boyfriend in the Pilaf Arc
For me personally I enjoy the story, but it's just not as interesting as it is to watch animated. I just want the show to continue again.
It's not because the saiyans aren't involved, people are checking out because the spotlight is on characters we don't care about. This is why the Cell Saga was so good, we got to see characters like Trunks and Gohan get shine, characters that people care about and can sympathize and relate too.
Absolutely! Trunks and Gohan didn't just get they shine, they played crucial roles in the story. And even with that you were able to balance them along with Goku and Vegeta
Even piccolo got to shine in the android saga when he merged with kami or krillin developing feelings for 18 and not deciding to click the button lol super falls short in comparison to Z
I'm not a fan of super Bardock because he is essentially edgy goku. Where Bardock in the special was more interesting. I personally find it more interesting when a character is challenged to change their mindset. It seemed like Bardock in super has everything figured out and at the same time is still following faulty orders. Super Bardock doesn't seem like the type to stay in planet vegeta. Yet he does. Why?
My reasons, even though I am stil reading but more so "hoping for this arc to finish":
- Lack of variation in the scenery. We have been in the same place for the past few chapters, and it feels like I am rewinding the same chapter even though the plot is obviously different/progressing. But because of everything happening in the same place, the human brain just doesn't process the new information and is instead overlapping with prior information
- Lack of personality of the main protagonists as stated in the video aswell
- Pacing, it feels like some fights don't mean anything (supported by the fact we don't know much about these characters)
- Where is Frieza??
I would wish for some sideplot on Earth for example to happen inbetween the chapters, or to fix the personality issue to give meaning to the viewer
We do want Goku and Vegeta to step back. But this is half assing it.
We want story arcs without them being shown. Them having no contribution to the story.
Give Goten and Trunks some shine. Let them have an arc of their own, sans their parents and Gohan.
Give Piccolo an arc. Give Uub an arc.
Masako Nozawa isn't getting any younger.
If they want the franchise to continue forward after she retires (she's 85?), they need to start transitioning away from characters she voices.
Having said all that I'm sure there's been several executive meetings at Toei about moving forward.
I agree. Give Vegeta this one win against an arc villain, and THEN give us an arc featuring teen Marron pining for wrong-sounding-voice Goten, or Piccolo’s kids making a plan to get the Super DragonBalls that involves hijacking a Frieza Force planet freighter, or scorned genius Bulla helping Pilaf make new giant mechs.
Terrible idea. Supporting characters don't get main character roles. Should never happen.
@@Bornagainvillain I can’t tell what’s sarcasm in plain text, sweetheart. You’ll have to be clearer about that.
Both Manga arcs after the Tournament of Power have been meh for me. Vegeta's new form is problably the one memorable thing that I would like to see in animation, maybe as a dlc for Xenoverse 2 or FighterZ. Everything else is just meh. Granolah is better than Moro though imo.
Tbh when Ultra Ego was revealed, it kinda gave me the idea that this arc would revolve around Vegeta. Previously he had gone through a character development by protecting the Namekians and defending the Earth. As far as we were concerned Goku had already mastered UI in the Moro arc, while Vegeta picked up the FSF technique from the Yardrats. And then Vegeta surpassed Kakarot with his own limit-breaking power, one focused on trading blows instead of avoiding damage. On top of that he was throwing hands with the big dawg of the universe, a survivor who had it in for the Saiyans and who had managed to squash Ultra Instinct. It would have been really cool to see Vegeta not only shine through with his GoD power, but also take down the big bad villian for once.
Instead we get chapter 82 where Whis is like "You gotta master Ultra Instinct further. Who are you?" and Goku's like "Hey, I remember my parents now." It's kinda redundant to be focused on UI considering the fact that we had two other arcs around this concept. Even though Bardock being a part of this arc is cool, I kinda wish Vegeta could have carried this arc. Now it seems less and less likely by the chapter. This is basically turning into another DBS arc where a villian shows up and Goku's like "Kamehameha" and the villian fricking dies.
Ah well. It was cool while it lasted
Granolah arc once had a promising start but it became a complicated mess in the end.
The only thing i didn't like about this manga (other than the monthly release), was the cliché of Vegeta giving his energy so Goku could step up to the fight. But after hearing from Masako that Goku only did it out of necessity and he isn't really enjoying the fight then maybe it wasn't that bad. Hopefully the ending of the Arc is a good one.
Due to how I'm not dabbling into my twitter feeds to see how people respond to the Granolah arc. I've essentially been watching Masako's and Rhymestyle's views and it really does goes to show these 2 sides of the coin. For 1, I agree mainly with Masako because tbh while Granolah was annoying I didn't feel like we needed Goku nor Vegeta to sell a story but of course they have to be there otherwise nobody cares.
Which leads into Rhyme's view which is Vegeta doing the Vegeta cycle again and not having him help Granolah (I do remember him wanting some kind of duo attack with Goku and vegeta) He also pointed out Goku trying to lead again(It's been awhile since the video) but the point is I can see why but I can also tell people are very wishy washy about things unless you smooth into it.
I agree with what a lot of others are saying. It feels like fanfiction, with new forms, Bardock, etc. I'd say it's almost moving closer to DBH, where they rely on things that will pop the crowd for a bit (Hey, it's Bardock! Hey, Vegeta is transforming! Hey, Goku does UI more!) without any substance to move the characters forward.
It's like you said, anime is usually good at showing characters develop and I think Dragon Ball Super has held off on doing any substantial character development that had lasting impact for a long time. Plus, with the new movie they'll probably change parts that are canon anyways (or make them canon only to the manga), so Ultra Ego could turn into the new SSJ5
I think a big problem is that Gas is overstaying his welcome in this fight.
A potential fix might be showing us more of what Elec was up to or as you said have oil & maki start to doubt.
The fighting is unique & well done, but it feels like it has no consequence. They need a way to push the story forward while they’re fighting.
You can't wish to become the strongest from a weak dragon, if it was that simple, villains with the ability to time travel and know the dragon ball history like Towa, she would've made Mira with a set of dragon balls much stronger than Beerus since Mira has great potential and seeming limitless lifespan. Also, the wish was stated to be no stronger than the gods themselves which should include Supreme Kais, so how is it they made Granolah and Gas stronger than a Supreme Kai known as a God of Creation. Besides, Granolah's original power level was stated to be weaker than 1st form Frieza and Gas in monster form was weaker than Bardock back then, so how can those two became so strong that easily? The Granolah saga is dumbest saga in all of Dragon Ball, unless there's powerful hidden villain that strengthen Granolah and Gas in order to make Goku stronger.
For me it's just that I really don't like Granolah or Gas as characters. I like Goku and Vegeta taking a back seat so we can focus on some other characters stories. But the characters we're given are brand new characters that have been thrust into the front of the story without any prior build up, and so we're being asked to care about these characters relationships and struggles before we even know who they are. As the arc has went on we have learned more about them, but it's too little too late. The story forced them into the front too soon, a lot of the story has already passed before we had any knowledge or connection to them as characters, so all that is left is to wait for it to end. The timing of events is backwards. You have to introduce the characters before you tell their stories, but instead they told stories about people we don't even know.
Then on a purely personal note, I just hate revenge stories. Theyr bland, almost always nonsensical, and ultimately solve nothing by the end, and create frustrating character writing.
The main problem here is that this fan base to big to please everyone, no matter what DBS does in terms of plot and story direction there will always be people who won't like it. This arc as of now hasn't been as a good as the Moro arc yet but there has been a lot more good thats happened in this arc than bad.
I think the new movie will do a lot better at this idea of not having Goku and Vegeta be the center stage than the granola arc did because Gohan and Piccolo two fan favorite will be the main focus unlike this arc where it’s two factions we know little to nothing about and it’s hard to care for
To me they work as long as they won't get some wierd random offscreen power up. If not then to me they would be worse than granolah. I really liked them in moro arc.
Personally, I much prefer the Moro arc. This arc just doesn't feel as exciting. It feels smaller in scale with less travel and less characters involved. They do introduce some very interesting concepts, but they aren't explored as much as I would've liked. I mean, Vegeta reveals a brand new transformation, but he barely gets to use it. I get that this isn't his fight so the focus should be more on Granolah, but in that case, I'd rather they didn't show Vegeta's transformation at all. Save it for when it IS his story.
Also don't like the whole wishing for ultimate power thing. Feels very cheap and unearned. And with only 2 Dragon Balls? Anybody could do that. We'd have an endless supply of ultimate enemies to fight if they all just made that wish one after the other. I'm already not fond of characters achieving a transformation or ultimate strength off screen, but at least you know they trained to earn it.
It's funny considering how DBM(Fan comic) had a Vegeta use IT well before Toyotaro did that.
Also, recently they've been dishing out the manga for Dragon Ball Heroes, so that could be a deciding factor for alot of people, apart from the writing that they've gone with lately in Super.
I started losing interest when Granola showed up out of nowhere being the new "strongest being in the universe". Not only is Beerus supposed to be that but nearly every dragon ball villain shows up with that claim. Power does not equate to dangerous and instead of using aspects of Granola that are made him interesting such as his occupation, skills, and tools they just resorted to the bland and boring dragon ball staple of power. Then when Beerus started tearing apart Vageta's growth and maturity just because he wanted Vageta to be the next god of destruction, that was the final straw. They had something but threw it away for dragon ball staples that got boring in the Freeza Arc.
I just think wishing to be the strongest and it actually working for the villains at this point in the series feels cheap, but I think for what it is, the arc has me intrigued with the history of bardock and granola but I wanna see more of it before the arc wraps up and maybe that'll give us a unforseen ending that feels unique and different
I don't disagree with the criticisms of the saga, but what metrics are we using to determine community engagement with the story?
For me, it is entirely because of Bardock's involvement. And no, Masako, it doesn't have anything to do with Bardock being a killer or nice guy.
I don't like how Bardock's Minus incarnation devalues the themes of Dragon Ball ("Goku was sent to a trash planet because that's all he was good for, but that's what let him become a great defender of Earth and a great warrior-" Oh, wait. No. Nevermind. His kindhearted parents sent him to Earth for his own safety, and he's a kind warrior because his parents were kind warriors... Talk about making Goku, Raditz, and Vegeta look like idiots).
I don't like absentee family members of the main characters are treated as important parts of the plot. It would have been better off if Bardock's involvement and Goku's connection to him was shrugged off as coincidence. "Bardock? Who's Bardock? I don't know any Saiyans. He looked like me? Vegeta, wasn't there a guidebook or movie pamphlet that said Low Class Saiyans tend to have similar hair styles? We do? Okay, that must be it."
Bardock having beaten Gas, Goku wishing he knew about his dad, and Gas obsessing over how Goku ISN'T his dad is GENUINELY making me angry.
And I really just wish that after Minus, Bardock was left untouched by everything except for Heroes. His mere association with this arc just kills a lot of my investment.
That's fair enough.
Same. Honest these day everything was make to show how Goku is special because he's the son of Bardock. No. Goku is special because he was raised by grandpa Gohan, taught by Roshi and become friend with Krillin, Bulma. The only thing that he might inherit from his father is the hairstyle and maybe the determination.
I’m still paying attention even if I’m not interested anymore and I think the issue with goku and vegeta stepping back is it isn’t they’re off somewhere. They’re just sitting there. Making you wonder “why are you even here then?” Yes the cell games did similar but we know nobody else stood a chance and they were dragged into fighting anyways
We shouldn't assume we know how the cerelian dragon works, we literally just saw one single wish made to it, by Granolah. We don't know how the wish to Gas was. For all we know, Shen Long would do the same thing if Granola asked to him, we don't know if every wish has a bad side effect.
Monaito could fuse with Dende, adding his years and merging the Cerelean Dragon Balls with Earth's as a third way out. (Shenron gaining Axotl qualities for the next wish would be a neat detail.) with the one and two star balls gaining either a quicker recharge time/ or simply only need 5 balls now. It could also age/grow Dende up a bit too, more for his GT apperance.
It's not that people are pissed the saiyans aren't doing anything and other characters are the focus, it's that THESE characters are the focus. Not the ones we've spent nearly 40 years getting to know and love. Nope, it's some random newbies who aren't all that interesting. If this was Gohan, Piccolo or just about any other character vs. bad guy, while vegeta and goku stood on the side, a lot more people would be engaged with it.
Just think of the last time a side character stepped into the roll of main character in DB, Gohan. That was built up from the moment he was introduced until the end of the cell saga. An arc stretched across hundreds of chapters/episodes. We knew gohan, we liked gohan and we were happy to see him get his time to shine. It's an all time classic moment in DB and anime in general. Right now we're getting characters who we met like 5 minutes ago being given main character duties? It's not exactly rocket science to see why people are checked out.
Tbh the reason why I don’t like it is because it’s just a cheap way out to get power like there’s no real cost no great state and ect dbs gets away with too much things and it focuses too much on vegeta and goku why not give others a shot? Like bro it would be a lot more fun to watch a dbs like one animation I have in mind that has greater risk no dragon balls or ect or use those as a last resort
Wait... Vegeta held back against granolah? I missed that part. I don't know why, but I find that extremely frustrating.
He didn't
He could have won if he took the sensu bean
I’m still optimistic about this arc. Plenty of cards we can play still, like Oatmeel planning something, Goichi making a new robot, or Goku just using Instant Transmission to involve Frieza in the fight.
My guess as to what the fans want: Vegeta getting a solo win against an arc villain like Gas or Elec, and THEN he and Goku sit on the shelf with Beerus and Whis to let Goten and Trunks have an arc or two.
I think on the Bardock thing is more of a "oh hey i know that guy" that everyone was excited to see and then turned into "Man he's changed....he isn't the same as he was 10 years ago". Most us dragon ball fans grew enamored by the cold and unforgiving saiyan who was loyal and had what's basically a brotherhood among his fellow saiyan compatriots. For him to have this change of heart cause he was reminded of his own son was a pretty big twist when the saiyan we knew didn't hold much care for them either.
The saiyans have gradually been changing to be more sympathetic and kind which although isn't very new mind you, it's also causing them to lose their identity. Soon almost every saiyan (from old to new) will have a group that's kind and thoughtful and the only thing that's going to differentiate a Saiyan to an Earthling will be the tails and their powers. Personality wise and stigmas that we've come to know are basically becoming non existent so there's really no need to concern ourselves with what the saiyans are and how they behaved. Because now they are just earthlings with powers.
THIS will be further cemented if Vegeta's brother comes in and he's married to the alien girl as shown in that one movie. Whatever the case, i'm still interested in the manga and want to see how it ends (though i said the same thing for Genshin and i abandoned that game for what little to contribution it's giving it's world building and story)
I do like it quite a bit, worth paraphrasing, so this is me being far more critical then needed for a young mans comic. Probably two things.
1) It requires a change in perspective for us to see Granola as a main character. The Broly movie spent a long time building up Broly as a perspective character that we could invest in before chucking him into a battle he was ill prepared for; we knew that he wouldn't win against Goku and Vegeta because they are the established power houses of the universe despite unlocking ridiculous combat potential through being the LLSSJ/wishing to be the strongest. The strength of that kind of plot arc depends that character to get us invested in that journey and generally, it isn't super exciting. One day Gandola wishes on the dragonballs, becomes the strongest and... chills out for a month? He doesn't even antagonise the Heeters? It worked for Broly because he was genuinely being forced into battle against his will, but Granola doesn't really seem to either have a will pressing in on him; nor is he proactively changing the status quo around him. So I just don't quite relate to him in the same way as the Broly movie did within that time frame. Personally I would've liked him more if he had become a full on anti-hero, bullying the Heeters around while they went along meekly with his demands; when really they merely used him as a ginnapig with the Dragonballs before they even bothered risking one of their own and used their enhanced knowledge to make a wish with a little more longevity.
2) Gas as the surprise villian is kinda dragging Granolas self discovery arc out a long time, even doing the Broly transformations. Personally, I feel the Manga is really pacy, but I'm bored of the "several transformations to pad out the story" kind of villain. I mean, Granola had already demonstrated that being the strongest was enough to one up Goku and Vegeta, Gas didn't really need the build up. Likewise, Gas has a rivalry with Granola which isn't really explored; like we are told they have a rivalry of sorts but we never see Gas get his face pushed in to warrant that. They are just two different people with different roles that happen not to like each other. So when Gas gets set up as both Granola's and Goku's nemesis? Ehh, it's fine.
That being said, I like this arc and I like flipping the tropes and in particular really having Vegeta step up in mentoring Granola out of his self destructive slump. I brought that Gronola was the perspective character and it works much more to me then lame duck future Trunks, who scarcely did anything of substance.
I've always watched the reviews, but they just stopped showing in my feed. So hard that every month I've got to search the channel up and find the review.
I love this arc personally. I love the new character added and the new villains too. I love that goku and vegeta aren't the main people at this current moment. There is however a pacing issue imo. I really enjoy the long journey to that final fight. Might be why I like the filler of the original DBZ
Finally a review on this arc, was expecting this
MasakoX
I'll give you a possible answer to the cold Bardock = good / good Bardock = bad thing.
It's a mere case of presentation. Notice how this Bardock's 2 appearences all put more emphasis on him being all goody and lovable, and close to zero to being a fighter... THAT, is what people dislike, too much of a supposed bad man Bardock, being good for no reason at all!
And notice how the moments where he is good, really lack any real reason... we see no development for him, to justify them, they all happen with just a background info that he is being mellowed out by Gine... but we do not see why or how, or when it happened.
If these moments were more subtle; like Bardock simply saying that he forgot that Gine's second pregnancy ended, rather than making him look TOO MUCH like Goku with that comment on her belly, or him quickly dismissing Goku after checking his power level with the scouter, after a first moment of awe, it would have been better, because it wouldn't contradict in any significant way his supposed cold heart, since we are still needing an ACTUAL development for the events that supposely led him to become a warmer person.
Nice video Masako it’s great to hear your thoughts on the Granolah Survivor Arc as a whole!
Gotta love the Puns intended or not, I’m here for it!🙌🙌🙌🙌
Also Masako, I had rewatched the other world tournament arc and I know this is late (considered filler but not my point) , I noticed the race of people training from the Broly movie (dbz version). Made me think, so was Broly actually a thing or did comet camorie did the job. Fun tidbit that I wanted to share.
Meh im kind of on and off of dragonball. I mean super is good and has some interesting but i kind of not into dragonball as much as used to. To me their just trying to milk the franchise, especially the saiyans who yet again are always getting stronger, more powerful, and obtaining new transformations. Really the only thing keeping me in fandom are what if scenarios like what you do and few fan stories, comics, and art.
Fans definitely want the inclusion of saiyans, they just don't want it to be just about goku and Vegeta. In the last month the mere mention of bardock, speculation that they might be going to see broly, and an older pic of Goten and Trunks got fans more hyped than anything Granolah and Gas brought lol.
They could explore Hit's backstory if they wanted. He's got hundreds of years under the belt. Without exploring that he does feel lacking. I could guess his backstory a little. When you are an Assassin for hire, you do have to become cold to protect your sanity. He's been one for a long, long, long time.
I dropped the manga after Goku turned himself into a gundam against Moro, lmao. And this one is just so painfully boring to even remotely sit down and read.
Shout out to you Masako, I like how you brought up the subject cause I feel like it needs to be talked about!
Let's be honest Masako, once the Anime comes out Toyotarou and the anime team at toie will just add in filler to simply fix what's wrong with the Moro and Granola arcs just to keep the fandom mostly the English fandom (let's be honest we're the ones that carry more toxicity compare to the Japanese fandom no matter if it is the minority.) Happy.
I mean, the Granolah Saga is a pretty mixed bag. And Z could be mixed as well, but Z's following started out during the "cartoons are for children" years - people would put on a show of leaving it behind, but they'd still think about it sometimes. And since it was before having internet connection was assumed, people took it or left it.
Super, though, exists in the internet age, and moreover I find people care a whole lot more about what everyone else likes.
But as for plusses, I think the character development has been solid - even though Grano got annoying for a while, I think he's recovered nicely and matured from it all, and I like the direction Vegeta, and to a lesser extent Goku, are going. Minuses, the Cerealean Dragon Balls reek of MacGuffin far more than the Earth or Namek ones ever did; they very much have the feel of a convenient plot-device that will be thrown away once the arc is done. As well, while Toyo has been doing a good job splitting the limelight between Goku, Vegeta and Grano, Grano is a new character and people won't just gravitate to him instantly, and all the rest of the supporting cast is just not there.
Being fully real here, I expect we'll look back with relative fondness on the Granolah Saga. Once it's not the new current trending top10selling thing. Maybe that means we'll be pining for Gas and Elec in the middle of next saga, or maybe that means when Super is a complete package and we have the whole rest of the series to compare it to. People are forever comparing the pros and cons of Frieza/Cell/Buu, and I suspect that once Super is done, people will do the same for Moro/Granolah-and-Heeters/whoever comes after that.
For my part, I'd like to see Toyo work a little more with what he has, rather than trying to constantly expand, and that was where Moro did really well - the main villain and his underlings were the only thing that was really "new," and the rest was just built on foundation rather than conjured into the air. Granolah seemed to try and retro-fit that with the Bardock stuff, even though it was pretty clear it was going to happen from square 1.
tl;dr: There's no accounting for taste, and I think Toyotaro is doing the Toyotaro thing of making the last fight take too long.
What if Bulma was evil? As for how her once kind mindset could occur akin to like Lex Luthor, here's what I got:
1) She has a different reaction to seeing so many instances of Goku becoming the Great Ape and figures he's not human and could become a threat in the future, so she goes all Batman from Batman v. Superman on him OR
2) Capsule Corp gets absorbed by the Red Ribbon Army, forcing her to work for them as "Agent Cobalt", only really wanting the Dragonballs for the selfish but slightly noble reason of wanting her organization to be free again OR even Goku isn't able to stop the RRA in time, meaning they get their wish to make themselves the rules of the world and in turn, Bulma turns her back on her friend since now Capsule Corp's forced to become another division of the Red Ribbon Army.
I just don’t like Granola. I know it’s stupid but I hate the whole “wish for ultimate power” thing. I am enjoying other things, such as Goku and Vegeta but I mean….if they were gonna do it, pick a character we already know.
Idk if I’m late cuz I think you only check comments within the first hour of posting but are you ever going to continue what if Raditz never came to Earth? It was a really intriguing story, I think it deserves some love.
It feels like meh fan fic.
I get that people aren't interested in the story, because there isn't much story to be interested in. Probably due to it being a monthly manga and thus it feels much longer, and the story from the Granolah Arc is literally. Granolah wants revenge, fights Goku, then Vegeta then realizes the truth, then fights Gas. There is just not anything to be interested in, and the fights are only interesting if the plot shows a proper reason for them to fight
Other monthly series does it well it just Dragon Ball has become too much about the action rather than it story and character anymore.
@@zetamangads I wasn't sure the monthly releases were the problem, it was something I thought could be a factor. But I don't think Toyotaro and Toriyama do this on purpose, because they do talk about how many stories they want to expand for Granolah. It's just that their execution of storytelling is just not good with many pacing problems. Toriyama always made very simple and easy to understand stories, so I didn't expect Naruto type of annoying storytelling just like when Super was announced and ran for 2 or 3 years, but I just wished they tried a bit harder with the story
knew i wasn’t the only one
You're not wrong. After a few issues in, I just stopped caring about the Granona/Gas arc.
Personally, I'm just not interested in any of the characters. Maybe it's not being presented properly. Or maybe because it's just more of Goku and Vegeta fighting new enemies somewhere else. And I don't know what happened to that Android that Moro absorbed but survived.
Lol.
Well, ok. I get that the Paradox in theory. Half the fans want to see Goku & Vegeta do things, but other fans want to see other characters do things.
The problem in this arc is that... well, Granola and Gas... suck. It's like watching that Co-Worker you don't like, go and fight against that Boss you don't like. You don't really care who wins. If anything, you want both of them to take a L. We'll get to see if the Paradox is really true, if DBS: Super Hero does good or not. Again, Goku and Vegeta aren't taking the lead and characters we know and love are. If that doesn't take off, then the Paradox is real.
But I hope fans of the current arc recognize just how un-interesting... now just not compelling... that Granona, Gas or any of the other characters are.
And I did forget how people reacted when Bardock was in the Manga. I don't mind that Bardock wasn't completely brutal. But I would also like them to use that kindness of Bardock & Gene and direct it towards Raditz. Show us that Raditz (as a kid) loved his parents and family. That Raditz too wasn't a super cruel Saiyan. He did come to Earth JUST to pick up Goku. They could turn that into Raditz actually caring for Goku, just not being able to show it because of his lack of power and status of servitude to Nappa & Vegeta.
Pros for me
.Gas is ruthless threatening antagonist
.Elec a unique character for Db.
. Non Saiyan fight Gas vs Granola breath of fresh air.
.Think the fights were pretty good
. I think the Heaters our cool
Cons
.Mui was done dirty
.Vegeta Ultra Ego was trash
. Monaito no words
. Wishing too be the strong is kinda cool but lazy.
. Granola how he found the last Dragon Ball tv was badly done.
Some people really hate this arc. But me look forward too each chapter. Gas is one of my new favorite Super characters.
I see Gas as resentful towards Granola because he's unfinished business for him. If you remember, he talks about his bad memories with Granola's home planet and it seems like he's upset that he failed to eliminate him and now his brother has refused to let him finish it for years.
For me its the lack of Information that turns me off.
Be it the thing with the 2 Ball Dragon, whatever the stuff was with that necklace, or the strange powers they got from said Dragon.
For me its like this.
2 Guys use a charakter boost to the max lvl without knowing what class it will be and decide to play ranked pvp without knowing what 99% of the stuff they just got will do.
and it works out because... Plot
The tournament of power was so good because we got to see some old characters become relevant again. If they would’ve kept that momentum going, I think Dragon Ball could have had one hell of a renaissance. Instead of giving someone like Piccolo, Gohan, or even Krillin the spotlight for a while, we get a brand new character out of nowhere who is now on par with gods. It is really difficult for me to care about this new fan fiction looking dude when my man, Piccolo, has been denied for far too long.
I haven't actually read the manga yet, but I suspect this is gonna be one of those things thats way more enjoyable when read all at once, but is hell when reading it monthly.
That's exactly how it's been for me. I stopped reading for a few months and reading all these chapters at once has been a far better experience.
A friend of mine stopped reading because Vegeta once more was beaten after showing off a brand-new form. Once more, Vegeta gets denied the win... something that I've noticed some people tend to latch onto.
I disagree with the assessment that Vegeta was holding back against Granolah, I was under the impression that it wasn't that he was holding back, but rather he found it too difficult to fully engage in the same mindset that he had in early Z time period. He's matured and evolved too much to be able to fully utilize Ultra Ego in the way he is trying to, and goes on to say something much to that effect in the Shonen Jump translation. From then on, V-man performs a similar role as he did in the ToP, supporting other characters by giving energy or senzu beans to them. (Though he could have probably split the bean with Granolah and done things a bit differently but Senzu beans have always been a bit strange in their ruleset)
Honestly the wish thing is just an effect of narrative causality, they needed to make him strong enough to fight the Saiyans and short of wishes, there's very little conceivable way to close that power gap without having him undergo some kind of training from an angel or something. ... But there's not a good reason for Whis to look at Granolah when he's training Goku and Vegeta. With the information that Namekians come from a different dimension entirely, that also opens up the thought for dragonballs to be even greater in number and all across the universes leading to more shenanigans throughout the universe and other plot options.
The fact is that the wish for power is something that many, many people have wondered why it didn't happen sooner. Now that is has happened canonically people are backpedaling and calling it bad writing, but this seems like a logical progression to me. Even better that it wound up having a monkey's paw effect. Bonus points for it happening twice, in my opinion. That actually leads to my next counterpoint...
There is character growth of a sort within Elec and Macki. Oil might get some through Macki but we'll just have to wait and see, I think. When Elec starts getting cold feet about Granolah, his initial intent is to have the dude get owned by Frieza, but after Granolah gets super-powered overnight, he adapts and sets out to learn more. His plan is still the same but now he intends for Granolah to take down Goku and Vegeta... and then apply that same growth to Gas. Now he's gone from outsourcing mercenaries to working with what he has in-house. That's pretty logical too. Macki's discontent for Elec's recklessness regarding them has been shown, but I feel like we just aren't seeing the effects of it yet. I'd give it one more push before she finally realizes that Elec isn't good for her family. I'm fairly certain that will come back into view after we have a look at what the latest chapter has added in as well, and once we get done with Jiren 2.0- I mean Gas' individual beef with Bardock coming out.
I'm posting this after the newest chapter has dropped, but I'm personally more engaged then ever. I'm super excited to see what happens in chapter 83, to see the Prince of all Saiyans and Granolah fighting again... We might even see Gogeta again, though despite being "the strongest in the universe" I'm not convinced that Gogeta will be necessary here. As you stated at the end, Frieza could show up, and I'm pretty sure that he will, even if it'll be in the last several chapters of the arc.
I agree on what the good parts of this saga are. The idea, the connection with the Saiyan history. That's pretty cool, but... it barely seems to connect with our main cast. Goku actually cares little for Saiyan history. And if one of your two main characters doesn't care about what's going on *why should the readers* ? This is more something I'd be interested in seeing as a spin-off or a separate, fan-made manga.
I think what turns me off is just they are getting *beyond* ridiculous with the "I am the strongest in the universe!" "No, *I* am the strongest in the universe!"
Yeah, yeah, we've had increasing levels of strength and all that pretty much since the Freeza Saga, and it was slowly being ridiculous there, too. But here... it's the fact that they are already set to "strongest" from the get go, *then* keep adding. "Maximum Over Saiyan", you know?
The other being that, it doesn't feel like this is anything that should have to do with Goku and Vegeta, anyway. It's a separate matter, solely Granolah's fight and his beef with the Heeters. The characters *we know* are just spectators. The characters we don't know and, frankly, care little to not at all about, are the ones fighting. This could take place off-screen, and it would make 0 difference to the cast.
And that's not getting into the fact that the Heeters, while a neat design, are... pretty freaking bland. Okay, so the leader is a sadistic jerk. Gas is a pissy little brat that wants to fight Granolah because I don't even know anymore why. And the rest have barely any personality, I don't even remember most of their names! It makes me think of Bojack and his troup. I mean, kinda neat designs, but the personality is not really fleshed out. Granted, you don't want to put too much personality into a one-saga villain, but Buu had more personality, and he started off as a fun-destruction-loving goofball.
Elec is the only interesting one
My only complaint with this arc is how rushed it feels. Did they decide these new dragon balls only need a couple of weeks to recharge or something to satisfy plot convenience? They introduced Granola as this epic bounty hunter and then immediately ditch developing that to make him a stepping stone that's destiny seems to be getting pummeled by the next guy that has the exact same wish made for him. It always feels so rushed now, and that's my only complaint because I've honestly loved every arc in super to follow the ToP
Very good points Masako! I think if Goku brought Gas to Broly instead of Whis to buy time I would have been interested again. We could have gotten a little bit of tag teaming with Goku and Broly vs Gas.
I am at the point were the super manga lost me so hard I only look at it for the pictures. I know any character seen in the end of Z will be fine and I don’t care what happens to any of the new characters. The story has no stakes for me.
I'm calling it now, Goku asks to meet his dad for the next arc. Unintentionally screwing something up along the way and kicking off another villain and/or threat to the Universe.
Can you do another OC video, but for Dragon Ball crossovers, like Frieza Race Mandalorians, or a Kryptonian raised on Yardrat? Jedi Namekians? To Love Ru - Dragon Ball crossover? Shang Chi as a god of destruction in the lost 6 universes?
They never should have introduced another dragon into the main story. Especially one who's easy to summon. Plus we still haven't seen what sort of consequence from Elec's wish. Powering up antagonists like this took away from other story elements that could've made them more intriguing to read. We just have one huge fight like with Moro where we know what the likely outcome is going to be.
Characters like the Heaters just don't work in a world with cosmic level super powers. Information and blackmail mean nothing if the person your trying to manipulate can just blow up you and your colleagues in an instant. They had to pull the Gas wish just to be relevant in the story. Ultimately forgoing their initial character archetype all together.
Moro arc was great.
Once Granola came in I assumed I couldnt give less of a f* about a saga , then Gas came in and made it worse.
All I can see Frieza do is come there from a message being sent out for him to catch on. He'll arrive, be told he can finally be rid of the two saiyans, only to back-stab the one who called him and say something along the lines of; "I would prefer to put them down myself." and have is merry way from the place for some personal reason.
I’m loving this arc but every month I forget it’s coming out until I see the reviews are out. Sometimes I let it build up a few chapters so I can read more in one sitting. I think it needs to have smaller chapters and get released more frequently, like you said before.
I've been enjoying the yin yang motif (in terms of revenge) between Vegeta and Granolah and gas. Granolah representing revenge against Freeza and Gas representing revenge against Goku.
In terms of Ultra Ego I see it as Vegeta's version of SSJ3 (hence the lack of eyebrows).
I suspect that the upcoming movie has fans already looking ahead of this arc. I think that this saga made a lot of or hinted at a lot of promises for what we could hope to expect. At this point it seems very unlikely that Granola will confront Frieza and 73's role and importance to the plot has seemingly been forgotten.
Additionally the pacing has been off. Granola found the Dragonball too quickly and conveniently to invest in his struggle and journey. I personally don't think that Vegeta should have unlocked ultra ego in this saga. I would have preferred a much longer build to this transformation through training with Beerus more.
I felt that the Granola arc could have been an opportunity to tell a story that developed more of Granola 's world as it was showing at the beginning of this saga. Instead it turned in to another exploration of the saiyan's past which could have been saved for another arc. I'm indifferent to Bardock's role to this story although I am somewhat intrigued by the possibility of Goku's character development following remembering his mother and father, but that's as far as it goes.
Perhaps the ending might be interesting but unless they have another eight months left of this arc, I can't see how an intriguing set up can be made. That's why I am not that interested all that much in this saga.
Dragon ball super is not meant for the fans who enjoyed DBZ back in the toonami days! DBSuper is for kids there’s no blood the action scenes are terrible and not fluid at all. It’s time they put Dragon ball to rest
I stopped at the first 2 episodes of GT and into the ToP in DBS. The Buu Saga was a slog to get through.
DB just doesn't feel as intense or meaningful as it once did. If it did feel that way, people would continue watching these arcs in droves.
I think the fact that we have to wait so long for chapters interrupts the flow of the story. Every story is interpreted differently when you read it straight through without interupption
There is no way they forgot about 73.... right???
I find the Bardock hate weird. i dont think people understand that they need to also put Goku into the equation and go 'So its both nature AND nurture that made Goku not a bloodlusty murderer.'
It's lazy writing, Raditz, Vegeta and Nappa were proud warrior conquerors and judging by their own accounts and later on Frieza, pretty much every Sayian was like this.
If Bardock was somehow "different/good/special", which he wasn't (one of the best parts and I'd argue the entire point of the Bardock special was exactly how he was such an insignificant part in the grand scheme of things I know that isn't cannon, but that is the sole reason for them to be bringing him back in any capacity Minus/Broly movie included), it's still lazy writing, that only know and after years of dealing with Vegeta would Goku be informed about something like this.
The problem is they introduce new heroes and villains, with weak-at-best connections to anything in previous stories, and who only care about fighting each other. That's not a Dragonball story anymore. That's a new story with Dragonball in it. Top it off with the previous main characters only being there to job out and provide commentary on how cool the new guy is? That's some Mary Sue fanfic BS.
Not saying what they're doing is bad per se, but that it would have been better if it was not Dragonball. The license is hurting it. If it absolutely *must* be Dragonball, then call it "Dragonball Universe" or something... differentiate it from "core" Dragonball.
All good things don't stay good they just need a new writer and Akira is just accepting anything
This arc is ok but nothing special so far. It repeats itself. Vegeta and Goku have been up and down. Oatmeel and Monaito waste of space. Granolah gets the DBs easy as pie. This story just isn't captivating.
I think for me, it's just become repetitive and peaked?
Like, Toriyama who co writes it, seems to fall back on the old style of writing, 1 on 1 fights most of the time, Vegeta getting an L to the main threat, Goku getting a hang on a new form, and DB has very confusing forms of power scaling and consistency, cause extremely powerful people come out of nowhere and they try to tie them into the plot.
I don't wanna sound nasty, but lately, the villains aren't that interesting or in-depth. In fact, it feels like they're kind of regressing them and the only admirable trait they seem to have is their power level, which again presents the issue of consistency.
Nothing is really is really that surprising anymore and we know everything's fine by the end of Z, so you're not really worried nor are you that interested as to how it gets there.
im just annoying that their focusing on the wrong side characters. the z-team or universe 6 saiyans are characters that have been built up enough for have interactions that most people want to see. i think the current arc using villains from the saiyans past is a step back. imo I think the story could be more interesting if we saw what the universe that didn't compete in the TOP are like or what the completely destroyed universes were like. DB was getting a larger and larger story and draging it all back down this arc felt like steps in the wrong directions
I honestly just think, between these last 2 arc, these are just ideas, to see what ideas they can throw into the dragon world. Do the fans like a faster story, or a detact story, see the training, not see the training etc.... then basing the sales and views etc... as a guide to build a new arc
There is one more big thing that could happen for this saga, Goku getting a new form, now it does actually make sense and I'll explain, Goku is almost always one step ahead of Vegeta
Saiyan Saga: Goku: Kaioken Vegeta: Base form
Namek Saga: Goku: SSJ Vegeta: Base form
Cell Saga: Goku: SSJ grade 4 Vegeta: SSJ grade 3
Buu Saga: Goku: SSJ3 Vegeta: SSJ2
Battle of Gods: Goku: SSJG Vegeta: SSJ2
Resurrection F: Goku: SSJB Vegeta: SSJB
U6 vs U7: Goku: SSJB Kaioken Vegeta: SSJB (this is different in the manga)
Zamasu: Goku SSJB Kaioken Vegeta: SSJB (this is different in the manga)
ToP: Goku: MUI Vegeta: SSJBE (so in the manga it's SSJB Evolved and there are slight differences compared to SSJB Evolution)
I'm leaving out the current Saga due to it not being completed, though this pattern tells me it's likely Goku will get a new form or power up, it happens in almost every Saga
Moro: Goku: MUI Vegeta: SSJBE