I agree wholeheartedly with you about Elrond’s casting, or how he is portrayed. We get a glimpse of a more lighthearted and kindly Elrond when we first meet him in the Hobbit movies, though that disappears quickly.
The respect you have for Tolkien is absolutely inspiring. Listening to you talk is enough to make me want to pick up a pen and write a story like he did.
I am less bothered by Hugo Weaving's casting, partly because I somehow got through those years without ever seeing the Matrix I'm sure, but I 100% agree about his writing. They really dropped the ball with Elrond. Edit: Recently seeing Hugo Weaving in V for Vendetta again, I feel compelled to come to his defense even more...that dude has serious acting chops! I think (barring the unfortunate association with Agent Smith) he absolutely would have nailed it if they had written him better. (He's right up there with John Noble: another powerhouse of an actor whose character was terribly mis-written in the films!)
Oh, and agree that Weaving would do a fantastic Denethor too! I never considered it. It really bums me out that they wasted John Noble on their bleh Denethor character.
Finally😖, you're here. While you were gone, I binge watched all of your videos, and they're the best ones even though I've seen the same content on different Lotr channels as well. Keep it up man.
Recently discovered your videos explaining events in The Silmarillion and they are by far the best I have come across. You have really helped me actually understand and appreciate what is going on! So glad you are back.
I didnt care for Weaving's casting as Elrond either, but most of the reasons you give have more to do with Jackson's screenplay and direction than Weaving's acting .
My only issue with Hugh Weaving being cast as Elrond was that he looked too old to be an elf in my personal opinion (especially considering Elrond is considerably younger than the likes of Celeborn and Galadriel). The rest is indeed screenplay and direction, and I personally did not mind it quite so much.
@@sweeperboy Well he is described as appearing neither young or old in the books as I recall. Perhaps this is due to his mixed heritage. No offense to any of the actors, but none of the Elves in the films lived up to what I was imagining while reading the books.
My only other issue is the sword not being forged early(I get that it was part of his character development film wise, but still didn’t seem right to me) and Gloin not explaining about one of the messengers or riders of Mordor visiting Erebor seemed out of place. I get that one ring is important. But so was the eventual war in the north.
I absolutely agree about Elrond. He was 'Elrond Half Elven' after all. Making him distrustful of all mankind because of Isildur succumbing to the One Ring was an asinine choice. As far as the element of 'chance' or 'Eru's interventions' I think it's a bit more complicated than you made it seem. It's not like there was only one way the story could have turned out and that Eru made sure it happened that way. It's much more complicated than that. Eru's grand plan is ultimately very simple, to make sure his children(the children of Iluvatar) have free will, that's it. Every time Eru Iluvatar intervened in the story was to make sure that none of the Ainur ruled over the children of Iluvatar. Whether it's the Valar, Melkor or Sauron. The only times Eru Iluvatar intervened are thus points in the story where the children of Iluvatar had utterly 0% chance of escaping domination by any Ainur force, at which point Eru Iluvatar intervened in the most subtle way possible in order to give them to avoid said domination. It also ties nicely with the fact that both dark lords'(Melkor and Sauron) goal was not the eradication of the children of Iluvatar but instead their domination. And even though the Valar(Manwe and company) didn't really intend to dominate the first Elves, ruling over them would have achieved the same thing, thus Eru Iluvatar allowed Melkor's wickedness towards the rest of the Valar. In this particular instance the threat was obviously Sauron and his One Ring, so Eru Iluvatar intervened to make sure the One Ring would finally be destroyed for good so that none of his children will be dominated by it. Also notice how Eru Iluvatar didn't intervene initially, during the forging of the ring, nor even during the war of the last alliance. At that point in time it seemed that the children of Iluvatar actually did manage to fight off Sauron thus the situation wasn't dire enough for Eru to interfere. On the other hand when the ring was found again after it was lost and Sauron regained enough of his strength while the children of Iluvatar were at their most vulnerable state, that's when Eru Iluvatar finally decided to intervene and make sure the One Ring would finally be destroyed, again in an incredibly subtle and seemingly random(to those not privy to his plan) way.
Lord Elrond was meant to be more wise, farsighted and a healer than a warrior(I have no doubt that he was a good warrior too). He was a member of the white council for his wisdom, not for his prowess in fighting I guess. 😁
But in the movie he has none of the kindness that he has in the books. He is still Agent Smith looking for Mr. Anderson, not helping Misters Baggins, Bilbo and Frodo. And that’s a directorial issue frankly though I can find little fault with most of PJ's work. Just my 2¢. And worth what you paid for it! Lol. Best wishes to all.
Dain definitely knew who Bilbo was…he was there at the battle of the five armies, Thorin’s death bed and funeral alongside Bilbo. Dain sent Gloin to warn Bilbo.
I believe the books expressly say that Dain sent Gloin to Rivendell to warn Bilbo. He definitely knew him, I guess Dave meant he wasn't as close to Bilbo as Gloin or Balin were.
I actually really liked Weaving as Elrond even though his character was different 😬 lol! I also love to see good actors get good work so I’m still pumped for him that he got to work on LOTR! I am seriously enjoying your videos and I’m currently binging them, thank you for taking the time to share this stuff with the world (:
So much left out but still great movies working my way through the list of these videos to learn more before I get all the books thanks for these again
Knowing that meeting was just a "coincidence" makes it all the more powerful when Frodo said the thing and the fellowship was created. This is amazing!!!
I found this channel only recently and iam glad I did, been on a binge! The respect and love you have for Tolkien and his work is obvious in you videos and it's very cool to hear someone as faithful to his principles as you are! Great content my man!
The return of the king! So glad you're back with more awesome videos for us. Thanks again, and this looks like it's going to be an awesome series. I always love your approach with such a big focus on storytelling. Keep up the great work.
I say stick with going by Rainbow Dave if that’s your preference. (I think it rolls off the tongue a bit easier than David of Many Colors, but Chromatic Dave is also an option, I suppose) *Thanks so much for the upload, Rainbow Dave!* I’m really looking forward to the next 4 episodes of this series!
Well met RD! So glad that Friday starts out this way. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK MELLON! Peter Jackson did a fantastic job. Let's face it, to go word for word with the book, it would be the longest/most expensive movie ever ever. 👍
I red the books just months before the movies came out and it was glorious. Some parts were missing of course, but the triology was and stil is one of the most magnificent book adoptions that ever came out of Hollywood.
Nice analysis. I really enjoy your thoughts on the characterizations of Elrond, Frodo and Aragorn. Aragon being portrayed as a reluctant king always rubbed me the wrong way
I salute your bravery at questioning casting decisions in the films. I think Jackson, et al did a fantastic job on the trilogy. However, nothing is perfect, and pointing out what could have been better is valuable.
I think the consistent problem in the Jackson adaptations are the timescales and distances. I have a (slightly odd) obsession with watching LOTR reaction videos, and I'm often struck by people's assumptions about the passage of time and the distances involved. I was watching one the other day, where after seeing the Ringwraiths trample the gates at Bree, they said "this is a lot to deal with for someone who was at a nice party 24 hours ago". Sometimes I put this down to the thoughtlessness of the watcher, who seem to assume against all the evidence that the West of Middle Earth is about 100 miles across, but it is hard as someone who knows the books to figure out how well it actually comes across in the films. The Council is a great example - for Elrond to have actually summoned all those people, and for them to have made the journey, would have taken months and months. We don't actually know how long the Hobbits are in Rivendell before the Council members arrive in the film, but Jackson does nothing to give us the impression that it's a long time. The only conclusion a fresh viewer could draw is that Gondor (for example) must be pretty close by. It's a bit annoying, because there are times when Jackson made the effort to establish times and distances. It wouldn't have been hard to either stick with the book, or to have two lines of dialogue where one of the Hobbits talks about how long they've been waiting in Rivendell.
I hear you. When the elves showed up at Helm's Deep, my astonishment at their appearance was only surpassed by my perplexity as to how they got there so quickly (even ahead of Sauman's army).
hey man, awesome stuff. im really glad theres a playlist like this that informs of the differences. hope you cover all of it some day. i also hope you read my comment, i think you might find it an interesting interpretation if nothing else. i'd like to express my disagreement about your interpretations of hugos elrond and elijahs frodo. to be fair, i havent read the books, but im obsessed with the movies almost. im only writing this because i didnt experience these actors and their portrayals as you, but i actually did experience hugos elrond as incredibly kind. yeah he was stoic in the movies, and apparently hes very emotional in the books, but in those few scenes we get to see him he delivers such a character that fits perfectly with the setting and the weight of the fellowships quest. in his calm and stern manner i perceived all you say about him from the books, but he was intentionally bottling it because of his experiences and fear of disasters from his visions. you can see him physically struggle with the idea of hope. id like to argument this with scenes with isildur where he allows himself the emotions the books speak of and the scene at the end where he almost cries out of happiness that aragorn and arwen get to be happy together for a while at least. i think he was very well cast and i dont think hes a fine actor, i think hes amazing. the fact that his previous role was that of a crazy antagonist is a testament to his incredible acting skill. ok wow, wall of text. might as well do frodo. elijahs frodo is a bit more complicated because in order to understand his bravery in the movies you really need to give your best to imagine how utterly horrible the burden of the ring is. i think jackson had the same idea as tolkien when casting elijah. i believe tolkien wanted to juxtapose the childlike innocence and the impossible amount of strength and will needed to carry the ring. all of the hobbits being perceived as useless and weak had the audience at the edge of the seat in disbelief they could actually make it. you watch them and you keep saying to yourself 'no way they can contribute in any way'. but by the end of the trilogy you almost feel ashamed you doubted them and hopefully realize that the greatness does not stem from size or fighting skill, but bravery and uncompromising desire to do the right thing what ever the cost. again, i believe this was tolkiens intention (the whole message of the saga, really) and jackson understood it and translated it in the movie media, dare i say - perfectly. not only with frodo, but with all the hobbits and arwen as well. not just because shes a brave woman, but because she also traded immortality for love and hope. that might be the reason she got a little extra in the movies. oh and.. jackson has music in the movies. i feel people often forget how much of the story, message, the myth is actually told through the soundtrack itself. keep it up. cheers.
You should make a video of iconic/best moments in Middle Earth history. My best moment is always the meeting between Morwen Eledhwen and Hurin at their children’s grave…so sad😭😉
HUGE fan. I was wondering if you could make a video or something to point us in the direction of reading all in chronological order without getting into spoilers by reading said books. I found myself reading The Silmarillion and since it starts becoming a summary of actual full books that are out now I would read the endings to books i didnt even know existed :( i was wondering if you (knowing a whole lot not than an average fan) could give a list or guide on what books to read. Like: Silmarillion up to a point then picking up whichever books are next chronologically. Like Son's and all those books. I've been looking online but it's just so many versions and outdated guides that it makes me cry. I LOVE your videos so much. I find myself stopping watching mid video because I dont want spoilers and want to read the books. Plus it gives you more content to create and um possitive it will be a video with A LOT of views and likes :D hope all I well. Continue your awesome work!
EXCELLENT POINTS all the way around! You say many of the same things I have thought more than once. Brilliant video. I’m looking forward to your next one. Thank you! (p.s. one of my biggest sticking points with movie Aragorn is his reluctance to be king and his BEARD) 🤣
Hey! I love all of your videos! Any chance of getting videos about the actual languages themselves??? Nothing insane, your depth is always remarkable!! Thanks, man!!
I agree with you that the story is not well represented for Elrond, but I don't have a problem with Hugo Weaving's playing of the part given him. Sure, we all gasped and said "It's Mr. Smith!" but to suggest that that is a reason not to cast him, does not honor his acting ability and it was good for him to not stay stuck in a typecast role of a villain.
Yes, I must say it was strange to focus on Huge Weaving/Mr Smith...since we had "Magneto" playing Gandalf (X-Men being released the year before FoTR, so a similar era to The Matrix) and and little "Mikey" playing Samwise.
Every single time I see Frodo wake up in Rivendell I can't help but imagine Elrond standing over him and saying "Welcome to Rivendell.... Mr. Anderson" 😆😆
I usually agree with your views on the changes made in the movies even though I tend to be more negative towards them overall. I guess that comes from me reading the books several times before the movies came out. The Council of Elrond became one of the scenes that bothers me the most. It shows how different the visions of Tolkien and Jackson are. In Tolkiens version the council consists of wise people who discuss an important problem, and they do so in a civilized manner, and in the end even those wise people fails to find a solution, but they do not succumb to yelling and anarchy. Illuvatar speaking through the mouth of Frodo breaks silence not chaos. Tolkiens scene shows us, that not even the wise in all there wisdom has, what this task takes, but they are wise enough to understand this. I Jacksons version Wisdom breaks under the weight of the task. I understand, that this most likely is a result of Jackson wishing to bring more action into the story, a choice that overall changes the atmosphere in a way, that I dislike, but it also connects to the problem of Elronds character being changed. Jackson has a problem with too long passages without conflict, so he invents it, where it is not, whereas Tolkien uses it as a very powerful tool on several occasions. I'm looking forward to the rest of this series and the rest of your Rings of Power outline, which is amazing.
Hi, from one Dave to another... Rainbow Dave...Gloin!... did I miss something? Did you, not have a video about the Dwarves trying to take back Moria... and in it, Gloin heads off to find a way out for Balin and what was left of his company... and never returned, presumed dead; soon followed by the death of Balin and all?!... which happened before the events of The Lord of the Rings?! ...it's been too long since I read the book!?!
"There is a certain way things have to happen" - This appears in the very first chapter of the Silmarillion, the song of creation, with all its sub-themes. This is a medieval philosophical thought - the world has been created two times, once in a conceptualisation inside the mind of God, and then a second time as a physical creation. I will not go into the reasons why they did this, only that it is an interesting parallel.
I'll add another thing about Elrond which was not mentioned here. The "I was there when the strength of Men failed" (meaning Isildur's claiming of the One Ring) completely ignores what extended members of his own Noldor family (including his foster-father, Maglor) did themselves with the Silmarils... When set against that, Isildur's claiming of the Ring was perhaps misguided, but not wilfully evil or especially weak.
@@tolkienuntangled Very much so, but additionally he would have heard in great detail the tragedy of the Noldor prior to his birth as it basically shaped everything that framed his early life. When you have *that* much tragedy in your family and people, you should not conveniently forget it!
You make a lot of good points about Elrond in the movies vs the books! I do think, though, that they couldn't have known about the Agent Smith thing. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure LOTR was already filming by the time The Matrix actually came out. So that was probably just a somewhat awkward coincidence they couldn't fully avoid.
Elrond role in raising Aragorn didn’t become evident to me when watching the films. I watched the films first btw. Although his attitude towards Aragorn is still understandable for some. It’s like you’re 21 with a degree and you’re ‘travelling’. Dad gets stern and makes you feel unwelcome at home and that you’re waisting your potential. Elrond wanted that boy to get a job lol I think in making the films they made so many changes and choices that they were funnelled into making Elrond what he became and you’re right, he is a bit of a sour puss. I’m pleased that they were able to make him consistent within the parameters of the films. He is a wise good guy elf who’s motivation comes from his daughter and people. This brief suffices to explain what he does and I think expanding his character with out breaking the good film rule of ‘show don’t tell’ wouldn’t have added more to the movies as they were presented. Tolkiens world building was immense I’ve learnt from your channel and the story of the lord of the rings isn’t about Elrond just made richer by him.
Sauron wanting Gollum to be freed from the Wood Elves was most likely more due to his wanting to know what Gandalf wanted with Gollum and what Gollum had learned from Gandalf, and anyone else. Gollum, Tolkien explained...I can't recall if it was in letters or Unfinished Tales,....though pleased to have escaped from the Elves, was desperate to NOT be caught by Sauron's Orcs, who were looking for him. Sauron wanted him back. Possibly he didn't want Saruman getting hold of him either - but that's speculation, so scratch that.. The orcs hunted for Gollum through Mirkwood, but Gollum was able to make his way, uncaught, to the East Door of Moria, and hid in there. He didn't have a nice time of it. He had to evade any orcs, while also trying to steal their food and water. He managed to reach the West door, only to find he couldn't open it...which is where he was, roughly, when the Fellowship made their rather dramatic entrance to the mines.
If "everything had to happen the way it did, and it did because Iluvatar made it happen that way"...that does rather mean that nobody who was "good" did anything good of their own free will, but because it was ordained that "it be so". It also means that there was never any REAL danger to...Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin etc.. Nor did they make any decisions ever, or use their intelligence, or anything..it was all The Big Guy moving unknowing pieces about His big chess board. It makes everything than anyone did meaningless. It also make Iluvatar a total dick and a sadist for inflicting so much horrible pain, suffering and cruelty on so many innocent people and living creatures for thousands of years, if he always had the ability to make it stop with his power. If he could have stopped Morgoth, or Sauron, or even all those awful elves like Feanor and his ghastly brood, from all the harm they did to so many totally innocent living beings, but he didn't, just to make some sort of celestial "point" or to make them "learn" things, but at the expense of other living beings' incredible torment,....how is he not WORSE than Morgoth or Sauron etc...?
I don't disagree, but it's pretty much the same kind of conflict that happens with religion and the idea of God, everything is the will of God so how men can have free will? it's one of the contradictions found in religion and let's not forget that Tolkien was deeply religious. Although Tolkien denied any resemblance Iluvatar is clearly God, or at least inspired by the idea of God, and the same contradictions that exist in religion were transported to the story.
@@rjb639 Precisely. You've put your finger right on it. Twice. It is exactly that old - is there/how can there be free will, if some god is controlling things - problem, so prevalent in much of christianity. And...Tolkien was very christian. On a personal level, MY personal level, it isn't an issue, as I don't believe in religion at all. But on coherence in Tolkien's writing it creates a HUGE inconsistency. There is also, with Tolkien, the rather interesting tension in his work that while he was very chrisitan, and - as you rightly point out - Iluvater etc is very clearly pretty much christianity by another name, though ( amusingly) without Christ... at the same time, his stated aim was to create the British "missing" mythology. Which has to be NOT christian, by definition. So Tolkien creates a mythology which turns out to be pretty much Christianity. None of it truly bothers me. It's all just good fun genre fiction. But by the same token, it's fun to talk about both the consistencies and inconsistencies. And it's funny that Toklien transported into his own world, that whole huge glaring free will vs all powerful stuff rife in christianty. Couldn't solve that in the real world, couldn't solve it in the imaginary one. Never solved the ethical issue of slaughtering thousands of little orklets and ork-mothers as well. That old Orc Genocide Problem, as well as - did ORCS EVER have free will. OH the problems of being the all powerful being! Tolkien was God in his world, and he was never able to iron out all those big ethical wrinkles. IF he couldn't, what chance does a God have?
@@greenman6141 you are quite right. I think it's amazing how detailed and consistent the whole legendarium is (and props to Christopher Tolkien for putting together a huge part of it in the Silmarillion) but as you said, it's a contradiction that has no solution, like time travel, what happens if you go to the past and kill your mother. It's kind of a paradox, there can be both, a superior being determining everything and free will, just the illusion of free will
@@rjb639 We humans do like our detailed imaginary worlds. Which explains most religions. And why whenever monotheism hoved into view, and we were supposed to read only that one Book (whichever book for whichever Big God), we made sure to keep writing down and re reading all the wonderful multi god religions. If Tolkien's world made complete sense, then what would a lot of people be left to think about, argue about, theorize about, listen to pod casts about? So many people with so much time on so many hands! Most Mono Gods never like that idea. Idle hands. No no. Bound to mean trouble. They might invent a new, better, less interfering God, with fewer hang ups about, oh, lobster, for example. Don't think I ever heard Iluvatar inveigh against a slap up lobster supper. Good man, that!
Lol this video broke my heart. It was soooo good and interesting. and I knew a lot of it already, but hearing the comparisons broken down like that highlights how they did some important (in the way of staying true to Tolkien) things wrong.
(gonna shamelessly copy my comment 😂) this is such an AMAZING playlist dave, thank you i can already see there are "only" 9 videos in it and it stopped in the 2nd book😆 plssss continueeeeee 😍
I absolutely hated Peter Jackson’s version and therefore I thoroughly enjoyed the ripping apart of the Elrond character. Very happy I found this channel setting the story straight between the books I love and the movies
On casting of Hugo Weaving. Matrix came out in March 1999 and he started filming LotR in Oct of 1999 so he would have been cast for the role before The Matrix had even hit theaters let alone had any success.
Agree absolutely with your criticisms of how Elrond was written for the movie - and I did not like all those unnecessary scenes with him and Arwen and their endless laments. Strange how Peter Jackson found space to put in scenes that he just made up, but couldn't find space for scenes ACTUALLY FROM THE BOOKS that fans loved - like Scouring of the Shire and the true death of Saruman and the important blade from the Barrows that helped kill the Witch King.
Excellent Dave. TYVM once more, my friend. I'm watching this after having viewed (and commented upon) the vid you provided on the Top 10: 2nd Age Characters and once more I find you reading my mind, heh, as I too, as mentioned in the other comment, felt Elrond was very much given short shrift in the film version. I can often forgive PJ for a number of changes he carried out but not this one. Character assassination for any purpose is not justified. :( edit: Oh! Also wanted to ask, if you have seen the Fan-made live action film available on RUclips that focuses on Aragorn's "Hunt For Gollum" ? I'll try to track it down and come back here with the link but it is wonderfully made and casted. Highly recommended! :)
I laughed out loud when you said "Elrond is one of the most miscast characters"! Once again, friends have disagreed with me on this, but I agree with you. The way Hugo Weaving plays him just didn't feel right to me. It felt like they were struggling to grasp the nature of a great elf-lord and mainly did it mainly by shooting all the Elrond scenes (and Arwen scenes too) through some kind of filter that may me think I needed to clean my glasses. Besides, the character seemed to be devoid of emotion. Maybe the writers and director decided to pattern him after Mr. Spock.
I think he was meant to be more world weary than emotionless. He's seen and experienced so much war and death and just...life over the course of thousands of years that he is tired, and a little bitter after what happened with Isildur.
I don’t think “miscast” is the correct term, Hugo Weaving is a fantastic actor who can portray many types. Movie Elrond is simply badly adapted, it’s not the actor.
I'm getting caught up and feeling the music of all the pre-ordained chance happenings. Eru Iluvitar must have used some Auto-Tune when the Ainur sang the universe into existence 🎶
If I understand correctly, l Ron is a healer, that would mean that he is sympathetic towards others and tries to work them through their problems. Because mental healing is more important than physical healing to the elves, because they will naturally heal most of the time. Also being half man half elf. Yeah, and also having AA friendship with the third and the fourth I think he would be quite friendly with dwarfs. Elves and man. However, I can see him speaking to his daughter and saying, you really don't want to love a man. You, you have so much of your life. You haven't even imagined yet. That and in the book she really is of no, never mind. Quite a big difference from the only that's a was slain and came back so far.
"Firstly, Elrond talks about men like he's not one of them, like he's completely above them..." You know, that is a very good point. It didn't bother me when I saw the movie for the first time simply because I did not know his background. However, after I read Silmarillion many years later, his dismissive attitude to humans really began to irk me. I would also like to point out that even though he chose to be an elf, genetically speaking he is actually more man than an elf, as his mother was a human and his father only half an elf (and half a human). Fortunately, that characterization was in the movie only and Elrond is more compassionate towards humans in the book.
Before to watch your video, I have to say that Peter Jackson made most of his changes in order to appeal to people who never knew anything about the books, so he had to take audiovisual decisions but making concessions to political correctness as Arwen Undómiel turned into a d&d ranger or Boromir's diminished role.
Peter Jackson’s adaptation of The Lord of the Rings is a profusion of blunders and bad choices: The dispensing of Tolkien’s moral sense. The uncanonical failures of nerve. The utter disregard for proper tone. The elasticity of timing and pacing. The flattening of narrative. The interminable battle scenes. The complete destruction of characterization. The degradation of Tolkien’s prose, reducing beautiful sentiment to corny greeting card mush. The relentless trivialization of the story. And perhaps most egregiously, the facile appreciation of the book thinly veiling a profound and contemptible lack of comprehension of its themes. And this is in addition to the enthusiastic pilfering of an alarming amount of shots, scenes, and entire sequences from Ralph Bakshi’s animated adaptation from 1978. While it may be true that Jackson’s interpretation of The Lord of the Rings is far greater qualitatively that his interpretation of The Hobbit, well... that isn’t really saying much.
I know you’re passionate about this, but throwing around words like relentless, egregious, profound, facile, contemptible etc. doesn’t tell me about what you actually think and why. They just make me believe you think people who value the movies are evil morons. I suppose you could say anyone with sense already shares your opinion, but that still doesn’t help other people understand. I don’t think any admirable character of Tolkien’s would use language like that to, say, criticize a hobbit version of an elven lay. For what it’s worth, I agree that the movies lose a lot and get important things wrong. But they also get some important things very right, things people who would never have read the books got to experience and think about. Tolkien’s moral sense isn’t entirely lost. Pity and mercy and loyalty and self-sacrifice and the unpredictable ways the will of Eru works still wind up being important, and clearly so. Some of the movie characterizations help people connect to characters who seem alien or distant or too archetypal on the page. I mean, hold whatever opinion you want, obviously. I just worry that your love of the books may be blinding you to what the movies have to offer, and keeping you from understanding the people who appreciate them.
@@muddlewait8844 - If you want me to elaborate, then ASK ME TO. Even though, yes, throwing around words like relentless, egregious, profound, facile, contemptible etc. DOES tell you about what I actually think and why. Entire monographs have been dedicated to examining just how profoundly Jackson fouled the bed. So either ask me to explain bow he did, and how I'm not the one who's blind here, or take your presumption and condescension somewhere else.
I take care to try and pronounce the names as accurately as possible, and there are a few cases where I think the movies get them wrong. Dain and Gloin are difficult names to get right though. Dain is the name I've pronounced most inconsistently over the life of this channel. In some videos I've pronounced it Dane (like in the movies) and in others I've pronounced it Dine (like if it was a Sindarin name). I'm now 99% sure that both of these are wrong. Dain is a real life Old Norse name, and all my research suggests that the most authentic way to pronounce this is daa in. At least, I believe that's what Tolkien intended. We can be very sure that Gloin is pronounced like glow in, because Michael Tolkien made up a few similar dwarf names as a child, and they followed this pronunciation. None of them rhymed with coin. Of course if this is right then that means Thorin's father Thrain should be pronounced Thraa in, and Bard the the Bowman's son should be Baa in. (Like Balin but without the l).
What ought to be said also is that Aragorn is not some foreigner coming to Gondor but one of its most renowned captains from the time of Denethor´s father and so, with the slower ageing in some noble-bred Gondorian families, he could have all the time some friends there.
Gandalf said that even a lord of the Elves like Glorfindel could not destroy Barad Dur or open the way to Mount Doom, that it was better to trust the hobbits friendship. I also believe it was said that Glorfindel was too powerful and wouldn't have been able to hide his presence, which would make secret impossible. Secrecy was more important than power because all the power of the elves and men in Middle Earth could not defeat Sauron or breach Mordor.
Whoa, what? The whole forming of the fellowship and Gollum's escape was part of some grad plan of Ilúvatar?! Where did that idea come from? That is not stated in any of Tolkien's books, and to my understanding, _valar_ basically abandoned Middle-Earth after the Second Age, whereas Ilúvatar himself had never even had any direct involvement in the events of the mortal lands. Given how mythical character he is even in the legends chronicled in Silmarillion, I seriously doubt he had any involvement in destroying the One Ring at all.
Agree with your criticism of the Elrond casting. I am OK with Frodo though. I think the problem with Frodo is how he is written. I think Wood could have done fine with a better script that portrayed Frodo as less helpless. I agree with the age thing though but what are you gonna do? I thought that Aragorn should have been a bit older and rougher and less pretty boy. But it is Hollywood.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
I agree wholeheartedly with you about Elrond’s casting, or how he is portrayed. We get a glimpse of a more lighthearted and kindly Elrond when we first meet him in the Hobbit movies, though that disappears quickly.
You're a legend and one of the best Tolkien lore channels. I love how you contrast the films and books so honestly
"Honestly"
Agreed
@@calumsanderson6741 what’s your problem?
The respect you have for Tolkien is absolutely inspiring. Listening to you talk is enough to make me want to pick up a pen and write a story like he did.
That's such a lovely thing to say. Thank you!
I’m so stoked that you’re back, my dude!
Maaaannn I love the way you explain the vastness of Tolkien's world. Can't get enough of your videos
I am less bothered by Hugo Weaving's casting, partly because I somehow got through those years without ever seeing the Matrix I'm sure, but I 100% agree about his writing. They really dropped the ball with Elrond.
Edit: Recently seeing Hugo Weaving in V for Vendetta again, I feel compelled to come to his defense even more...that dude has serious acting chops! I think (barring the unfortunate association with Agent Smith) he absolutely would have nailed it if they had written him better. (He's right up there with John Noble: another powerhouse of an actor whose character was terribly mis-written in the films!)
Oh, and agree that Weaving would do a fantastic Denethor too! I never considered it. It really bums me out that they wasted John Noble on their bleh Denethor character.
Finally😖, you're here.
While you were gone, I binge watched all of your videos, and they're the best ones even though I've seen the same content on different Lotr channels as well.
Keep it up man.
Recently discovered your videos explaining events in The Silmarillion and they are by far the best I have come across. You have really helped me actually understand and appreciate what is going on! So glad you are back.
I’m excited to listen to this. It makes my bakery shift go by faster. Keep up the awesome work.
Loving your content , it's been a wonder and a joy to listen to you explain the lore , wile doing night shift nursing
I didnt care for Weaving's casting as Elrond either, but most of the reasons you give have more to do with Jackson's screenplay and direction than Weaving's acting .
My only issue with Hugh Weaving being cast as Elrond was that he looked too old to be an elf in my personal opinion (especially considering Elrond is considerably younger than the likes of Celeborn and Galadriel). The rest is indeed screenplay and direction, and I personally did not mind it quite so much.
@@sweeperboy Well he is described as appearing neither young or old in the books as I recall. Perhaps this is due to his mixed heritage. No offense to any of the actors, but none of the Elves in the films lived up to what I was imagining while reading the books.
It’s those darn eyebrows that ruin it
Can't believe you're continuing comparison videos. Can't wait to see them all!
I’m always so excited to see an upload from this channel. Great as always, Rainbow Dave!
This is just great. I've read the books at least 5 times, but I am learning so many threads that I never saw before. Thanks for doing this!
My only other issue is the sword not being forged early(I get that it was part of his character development film wise, but still didn’t seem right to me) and Gloin not explaining about one of the messengers or riders of Mordor visiting Erebor seemed out of place. I get that one ring is important. But so was the eventual war in the north.
I absolutely agree about Elrond. He was 'Elrond Half Elven' after all. Making him distrustful of all mankind because of Isildur succumbing to the One Ring was an asinine choice. As far as the element of 'chance' or 'Eru's interventions' I think it's a bit more complicated than you made it seem. It's not like there was only one way the story could have turned out and that Eru made sure it happened that way. It's much more complicated than that. Eru's grand plan is ultimately very simple, to make sure his children(the children of Iluvatar) have free will, that's it. Every time Eru Iluvatar intervened in the story was to make sure that none of the Ainur ruled over the children of Iluvatar. Whether it's the Valar, Melkor or Sauron.
The only times Eru Iluvatar intervened are thus points in the story where the children of Iluvatar had utterly 0% chance of escaping domination by any Ainur force, at which point Eru Iluvatar intervened in the most subtle way possible in order to give them to avoid said domination. It also ties nicely with the fact that both dark lords'(Melkor and Sauron) goal was not the eradication of the children of Iluvatar but instead their domination. And even though the Valar(Manwe and company) didn't really intend to dominate the first Elves, ruling over them would have achieved the same thing, thus Eru Iluvatar allowed Melkor's wickedness towards the rest of the Valar.
In this particular instance the threat was obviously Sauron and his One Ring, so Eru Iluvatar intervened to make sure the One Ring would finally be destroyed for good so that none of his children will be dominated by it. Also notice how Eru Iluvatar didn't intervene initially, during the forging of the ring, nor even during the war of the last alliance. At that point in time it seemed that the children of Iluvatar actually did manage to fight off Sauron thus the situation wasn't dire enough for Eru to interfere. On the other hand when the ring was found again after it was lost and Sauron regained enough of his strength while the children of Iluvatar were at their most vulnerable state, that's when Eru Iluvatar finally decided to intervene and make sure the One Ring would finally be destroyed, again in an incredibly subtle and seemingly random(to those not privy to his plan) way.
I think Elrond is the only character better portrayed in the Hobbit than in lotr
I agree with that!
Lord Elrond was meant to be more wise, farsighted and a healer than a warrior(I have no doubt that he was a good warrior too). He was a member of the white council for his wisdom, not for his prowess in fighting I guess. 😁
But in the movie he has none of the kindness that he has in the books. He is still Agent Smith looking for Mr. Anderson, not helping Misters Baggins, Bilbo and Frodo.
And that’s a directorial issue frankly though I can find little fault with most of PJ's work.
Just my 2¢. And worth what you paid for it! Lol. Best wishes to all.
@@johnt.inscrutable1545 I mean the hobbit movies and lotr movies
@@Keijspermeister I can see that he started better in The Hobbit, but sadly still not enough for me to get past my prior disappointment.
I’m reading the books for the first time ! Im now at the Boombaard (tree beard) chapter
Dain definitely knew who Bilbo was…he was there at the battle of the five armies, Thorin’s death bed and funeral alongside Bilbo. Dain sent Gloin to warn Bilbo.
I believe the books expressly say that Dain sent Gloin to Rivendell to warn Bilbo. He definitely knew him, I guess Dave meant he wasn't as close to Bilbo as Gloin or Balin were.
@@rjb639 "and so I have been sent at last by Dain to warn Bilbo that he is sought by the enemy," -Gloin in this chapter
So happy you're back! Thank you for your content
I actually really liked Weaving as Elrond even though his character was different 😬 lol! I also love to see good actors get good work so I’m still pumped for him that he got to work on LOTR!
I am seriously enjoying your videos and I’m currently binging them, thank you for taking the time to share this stuff with the world (:
So much left out but still great movies working my way through the list of these videos to learn more before I get all the books thanks for these again
Knowing that meeting was just a "coincidence" makes it all the more powerful when Frodo said the thing and the fellowship was created. This is amazing!!!
Just recently found your videos. Love them so far. Between you and Nerd Of The Rings channel my love for middle earth has been reignited
Glad you like them!
I found this channel only recently and iam glad I did, been on a binge!
The respect and love you have for Tolkien and his work is obvious in you videos and it's very cool to hear someone as faithful to his principles as you are!
Great content my man!
Thanks very much! I'm really glad you're enjoying the channel.
Amazing storytelling for your part! The council of elrond is my favorite chapter form all the lord of the rings.
You have been sorely missed Dave! Elated you are back. Spot on as always!!!
David of Many Colours…I LOVE that name for you. Thank you for another great video. I’m catching up on some of your back catalogue.
The return of the king! So glad you're back with more awesome videos for us. Thanks again, and this looks like it's going to be an awesome series.
I always love your approach with such a big focus on storytelling. Keep up the great work.
I say stick with going by Rainbow Dave if that’s your preference.
(I think it rolls off the tongue a bit easier than David of Many Colors, but Chromatic Dave is also an option, I suppose)
*Thanks so much for the upload, Rainbow Dave!*
I’m really looking forward to the next 4 episodes of this series!
Chromatic is a very underused and great word in general. I like Rainbow Dave personally it sounds very happy and carefree
Well met RD! So glad that Friday starts out this way. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK MELLON! Peter Jackson did a fantastic job. Let's face it, to go word for word with the book, it would be the longest/most expensive movie ever ever. 👍
I red the books just months before the movies came out and it was glorious. Some parts were missing of course, but the triology was and stil is one of the most magnificent book adoptions that ever came out of Hollywood.
Nice analysis. I really enjoy your thoughts on the characterizations of Elrond, Frodo and Aragorn. Aragon being portrayed as a reluctant king always rubbed me the wrong way
I salute your bravery at questioning casting decisions in the films. I think Jackson, et al did a fantastic job on the trilogy. However, nothing is perfect, and pointing out what could have been better is valuable.
Thank you for making this video. Can’t wait for the other 4 parts!
I think the consistent problem in the Jackson adaptations are the timescales and distances. I have a (slightly odd) obsession with watching LOTR reaction videos, and I'm often struck by people's assumptions about the passage of time and the distances involved. I was watching one the other day, where after seeing the Ringwraiths trample the gates at Bree, they said "this is a lot to deal with for someone who was at a nice party 24 hours ago".
Sometimes I put this down to the thoughtlessness of the watcher, who seem to assume against all the evidence that the West of Middle Earth is about 100 miles across, but it is hard as someone who knows the books to figure out how well it actually comes across in the films. The Council is a great example - for Elrond to have actually summoned all those people, and for them to have made the journey, would have taken months and months. We don't actually know how long the Hobbits are in Rivendell before the Council members arrive in the film, but Jackson does nothing to give us the impression that it's a long time. The only conclusion a fresh viewer could draw is that Gondor (for example) must be pretty close by. It's a bit annoying, because there are times when Jackson made the effort to establish times and distances. It wouldn't have been hard to either stick with the book, or to have two lines of dialogue where one of the Hobbits talks about how long they've been waiting in Rivendell.
I hear you. When the elves showed up at Helm's Deep, my astonishment at their appearance was only surpassed by my perplexity as to how they got there so quickly (even ahead of Sauman's army).
hey man, awesome stuff. im really glad theres a playlist like this that informs of the differences. hope you cover all of it some day. i also hope you read my comment, i think you might find it an interesting interpretation if nothing else.
i'd like to express my disagreement about your interpretations of hugos elrond and elijahs frodo. to be fair, i havent read the books, but im obsessed with the movies almost. im only writing this because i didnt experience these actors and their portrayals as you, but i actually did experience hugos elrond as incredibly kind. yeah he was stoic in the movies, and apparently hes very emotional in the books, but in those few scenes we get to see him he delivers such a character that fits perfectly with the setting and the weight of the fellowships quest. in his calm and stern manner i perceived all you say about him from the books, but he was intentionally bottling it because of his experiences and fear of disasters from his visions. you can see him physically struggle with the idea of hope. id like to argument this with scenes with isildur where he allows himself the emotions the books speak of and the scene at the end where he almost cries out of happiness that aragorn and arwen get to be happy together for a while at least. i think he was very well cast and i dont think hes a fine actor, i think hes amazing. the fact that his previous role was that of a crazy antagonist is a testament to his incredible acting skill.
ok wow, wall of text. might as well do frodo.
elijahs frodo is a bit more complicated because in order to understand his bravery in the movies you really need to give your best to imagine how utterly horrible the burden of the ring is. i think jackson had the same idea as tolkien when casting elijah. i believe tolkien wanted to juxtapose the childlike innocence and the impossible amount of strength and will needed to carry the ring. all of the hobbits being perceived as useless and weak had the audience at the edge of the seat in disbelief they could actually make it. you watch them and you keep saying to yourself 'no way they can contribute in any way'. but by the end of the trilogy you almost feel ashamed you doubted them and hopefully realize that the greatness does not stem from size or fighting skill, but bravery and uncompromising desire to do the right thing what ever the cost. again, i believe this was tolkiens intention (the whole message of the saga, really) and jackson understood it and translated it in the movie media, dare i say - perfectly. not only with frodo, but with all the hobbits and arwen as well. not just because shes a brave woman, but because she also traded immortality for love and hope. that might be the reason she got a little extra in the movies.
oh and.. jackson has music in the movies. i feel people often forget how much of the story, message, the myth is actually told through the soundtrack itself.
keep it up. cheers.
I would love to see you cover the tale of Beren and Luthien.
When I'm done with this five video series, Beren and Luthien will be the next great tale that I cover. I'm super excited to get to it!
@@tolkienuntangled I'm excited too! Lots of love from India.
You should make a video of iconic/best moments in Middle Earth history. My best moment is always the meeting between Morwen Eledhwen and Hurin at their children’s grave…so sad😭😉
Never have heard any talk about the character differences from the books, but you are totally right!
The return of the king!
Here here!
HUGE fan. I was wondering if you could make a video or something to point us in the direction of reading all in chronological order without getting into spoilers by reading said books. I found myself reading The Silmarillion and since it starts becoming a summary of actual full books that are out now I would read the endings to books i didnt even know existed :( i was wondering if you (knowing a whole lot not than an average fan) could give a list or guide on what books to read. Like: Silmarillion up to a point then picking up whichever books are next chronologically. Like Son's and all those books. I've been looking online but it's just so many versions and outdated guides that it makes me cry. I LOVE your videos so much. I find myself stopping watching mid video because I dont want spoilers and want to read the books. Plus it gives you more content to create and um possitive it will be a video with A LOT of views and likes :D hope all I well. Continue your awesome work!
*Fun fact: Fellowship premiered 20 years ago today!!!*
That's so awesome!
Oof! That makes me feel REALLY old!
Eh, Bakshi's was released in 1978 and I think it's better.
EXCELLENT POINTS all the way around! You say many of the same things I have thought more than once. Brilliant video. I’m looking forward to your next one. Thank you! (p.s. one of my biggest sticking points with movie Aragorn is his reluctance to be king and his BEARD) 🤣
Keep ‘em coming, I’ m having a blast!
Hey! I love all of your videos! Any chance of getting videos about the actual languages themselves??? Nothing insane, your depth is always remarkable!! Thanks, man!!
I agree with you that the story is not well represented for Elrond, but I don't have a problem with Hugo Weaving's playing of the part given him. Sure, we all gasped and said "It's Mr. Smith!" but to suggest that that is a reason not to cast him, does not honor his acting ability and it was good for him to not stay stuck in a typecast role of a villain.
Yes, I must say it was strange to focus on Huge Weaving/Mr Smith...since we had "Magneto" playing Gandalf (X-Men being released the year before FoTR, so a similar era to The Matrix) and and little "Mikey" playing Samwise.
Thanks for uploading this one, i was waiting for it.
Aragorn is Elrond's many times great-grandnephew. He's family. (This also means that Arwen and Aragorn are first cousins many times removed, but eh.)
many people are cousins, the best way to not marry a cousin is to marry someone from abroad.
Every single time I see Frodo wake up in Rivendell I can't help but imagine Elrond standing over him and saying "Welcome to Rivendell.... Mr. Anderson" 😆😆
Imagine if Glorfindel had fought a Balrog....again, if he had joined the fellowship.
I usually agree with your views on the changes made in the movies even though I tend to be more negative towards them overall. I guess that comes from me reading the books several times before the movies came out.
The Council of Elrond became one of the scenes that bothers me the most. It shows how different the visions of Tolkien and Jackson are. In Tolkiens version the council consists of wise people who discuss an important problem, and they do so in a civilized manner, and in the end even those wise people fails to find a solution, but they do not succumb to yelling and anarchy. Illuvatar speaking through the mouth of Frodo breaks silence not chaos. Tolkiens scene shows us, that not even the wise in all there wisdom has, what this task takes, but they are wise enough to understand this.
I Jacksons version Wisdom breaks under the weight of the task.
I understand, that this most likely is a result of Jackson wishing to bring more action into the story, a choice that overall changes the atmosphere in a way, that I dislike, but it also connects to the problem of Elronds character being changed. Jackson has a problem with too long passages without conflict, so he invents it, where it is not, whereas Tolkien uses it as a very powerful tool on several occasions.
I'm looking forward to the rest of this series and the rest of your Rings of Power outline, which is amazing.
Hi, from one Dave to another... Rainbow Dave...Gloin!... did I miss something? Did you, not have a video about the Dwarves trying to take back Moria... and in it, Gloin heads off to find a way out for Balin and what was left of his company... and never returned, presumed dead; soon followed by the death of Balin and all?!... which happened before the events of The Lord of the Rings?! ...it's been too long since I read the book!?!
Spot on with your analysis of Elrond.
Very enjoyable video. I agree with most of what you said.
It's a very interesting video you have shared with us. Really I enjoyed a lot.
"There is a certain way things have to happen" - This appears in the very first chapter of the Silmarillion, the song of creation, with all its sub-themes. This is a medieval philosophical thought - the world has been created two times, once in a conceptualisation inside the mind of God, and then a second time as a physical creation. I will not go into the reasons why they did this, only that it is an interesting parallel.
I'll add another thing about Elrond which was not mentioned here. The "I was there when the strength of Men failed" (meaning Isildur's claiming of the One Ring) completely ignores what extended members of his own Noldor family (including his foster-father, Maglor) did themselves with the Silmarils...
When set against that, Isildur's claiming of the Ring was perhaps misguided, but not wilfully evil or especially weak.
That's a very good point. Elrond was certainly there when the strength of elves failed! At least for the third time.
@@tolkienuntangled Very much so, but additionally he would have heard in great detail the tragedy of the Noldor prior to his birth as it basically shaped everything that framed his early life.
When you have *that* much tragedy in your family and people, you should not conveniently forget it!
I’m so excited for this!
I love your insights. Thank you and take care.
Once again, very enjoyable analysis and thanks so much!
im so thrilled for this new series!!!
I love your essays man, always great for a deep dive back into Middle Earth but please for Frodo...dont speak ill of Hugo Weaving...lol
You make a lot of good points about Elrond in the movies vs the books! I do think, though, that they couldn't have known about the Agent Smith thing. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure LOTR was already filming by the time The Matrix actually came out. So that was probably just a somewhat awkward coincidence they couldn't fully avoid.
Elrond role in raising Aragorn didn’t become evident to me when watching the films. I watched the films first btw. Although his attitude towards Aragorn is still understandable for some. It’s like you’re 21 with a degree and you’re ‘travelling’. Dad gets stern and makes you feel unwelcome at home and that you’re waisting your potential. Elrond wanted that boy to get a job lol
I think in making the films they made so many changes and choices that they were funnelled into making Elrond what he became and you’re right, he is a bit of a sour puss. I’m pleased that they were able to make him consistent within the parameters of the films. He is a wise good guy elf who’s motivation comes from his daughter and people. This brief suffices to explain what he does and I think expanding his character with out breaking the good film rule of ‘show don’t tell’ wouldn’t have added more to the movies as they were presented. Tolkiens world building was immense I’ve learnt from your channel and the story of the lord of the rings isn’t about Elrond just made richer by him.
Haven't seen you here for a long time mellon
Yesss! Another video!! Lol~ I probably get too excited for these, but oh well~ it is Friday 🤷♂️
Books almost always tell deeper stories than movies ever possibly could.
Sauron wanting Gollum to be freed from the Wood Elves was most likely more due to his wanting to know what Gandalf wanted with Gollum and what Gollum had learned from Gandalf, and anyone else.
Gollum, Tolkien explained...I can't recall if it was in letters or Unfinished Tales,....though pleased to have escaped from the Elves, was desperate to NOT be caught by Sauron's Orcs, who were looking for him. Sauron wanted him back. Possibly he didn't want Saruman getting hold of him either - but that's speculation, so scratch that..
The orcs hunted for Gollum through Mirkwood, but Gollum was able to make his way, uncaught, to the East Door of Moria, and hid in there. He didn't have a nice time of it. He had to evade any orcs, while also trying to steal their food and water. He managed to reach the West door, only to find he couldn't open it...which is where he was, roughly, when the Fellowship made their rather dramatic entrance to the mines.
If "everything had to happen the way it did, and it did because Iluvatar made it happen that way"...that does rather mean that nobody who was "good" did anything good of their own free will, but because it was ordained that "it be so".
It also means that there was never any REAL danger to...Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin etc..
Nor did they make any decisions ever, or use their intelligence, or anything..it was all The Big Guy moving unknowing pieces about His big chess board.
It makes everything than anyone did meaningless.
It also make Iluvatar a total dick and a sadist for inflicting so much horrible pain, suffering and cruelty on so many innocent people and living creatures for thousands of years, if he always had the ability to make it stop with his power.
If he could have stopped Morgoth, or Sauron, or even all those awful elves like Feanor and his ghastly brood, from all the harm they did to so many totally innocent living beings, but he didn't, just to make some sort of celestial "point" or to make them "learn" things, but at the expense of other living beings' incredible torment,....how is he not WORSE than Morgoth or Sauron etc...?
I don't disagree, but it's pretty much the same kind of conflict that happens with religion and the idea of God, everything is the will of God so how men can have free will? it's one of the contradictions found in religion and let's not forget that Tolkien was deeply religious. Although Tolkien denied any resemblance Iluvatar is clearly God, or at least inspired by the idea of God, and the same contradictions that exist in religion were transported to the story.
@@rjb639 Precisely. You've put your finger right on it.
Twice.
It is exactly that old - is there/how can there be free will, if some god is controlling things - problem, so prevalent in much of christianity.
And...Tolkien was very christian.
On a personal level, MY personal level, it isn't an issue, as I don't believe in religion at all.
But on coherence in Tolkien's writing it creates a HUGE inconsistency.
There is also, with Tolkien, the rather interesting tension in his work that while he was very chrisitan, and - as you rightly point out - Iluvater etc is very clearly pretty much christianity by another name, though ( amusingly) without Christ...
at the same time, his stated aim was to create the British "missing" mythology.
Which has to be NOT christian, by definition.
So Tolkien creates a mythology which turns out to be pretty much Christianity.
None of it truly bothers me. It's all just good fun genre fiction.
But by the same token, it's fun to talk about both the consistencies and inconsistencies.
And it's funny that Toklien transported into his own world, that whole huge glaring free will vs all powerful stuff rife in christianty.
Couldn't solve that in the real world, couldn't solve it in the imaginary one.
Never solved the ethical issue of slaughtering thousands of little orklets and ork-mothers as well. That old Orc Genocide Problem, as well as - did ORCS EVER have free will.
OH the problems of being the all powerful being! Tolkien was God in his world, and he was never able to iron out all those big ethical wrinkles. IF he couldn't, what chance does a God have?
@@greenman6141 you are quite right. I think it's amazing how detailed and consistent the whole legendarium is (and props to Christopher Tolkien for putting together a huge part of it in the Silmarillion) but as you said, it's a contradiction that has no solution, like time travel, what happens if you go to the past and kill your mother. It's kind of a paradox, there can be both, a superior being determining everything and free will, just the illusion of free will
@@rjb639 We humans do like our detailed imaginary worlds.
Which explains most religions.
And why whenever monotheism hoved into view, and we were supposed to read only that one Book (whichever book for whichever Big God), we made sure to keep writing down and re reading all the wonderful multi god religions.
If Tolkien's world made complete sense, then what would a lot of people be left to think about, argue about, theorize about, listen to pod casts about?
So many people with so much time on so many hands! Most Mono Gods never like that idea. Idle hands. No no. Bound to mean trouble. They might invent a new, better, less interfering God, with fewer hang ups about, oh, lobster, for example.
Don't think I ever heard Iluvatar inveigh against a slap up lobster supper. Good man, that!
While I think the Hobbit movies were pretty bad, I do think they gave Elrond a bit more warmth and even some humor which was a nice change of pace
Yeah, I think Elrond was the only part of the Hobbit movies that was better than the LOTR movies.
Lol this video broke my heart. It was soooo good and interesting. and I knew a lot of it already, but hearing the comparisons broken down like that highlights how they did some important (in the way of staying true to Tolkien) things wrong.
Do you think that due to movie Isuldur being so easily corrupted by power, that movie Aragon was doubtful over being king?
(gonna shamelessly copy my comment 😂)
this is such an AMAZING playlist dave, thank you
i can already see there are "only" 9 videos in it and it stopped in the 2nd book😆
plssss continueeeeee 😍
I absolutely hated Peter Jackson’s version and therefore I thoroughly enjoyed the ripping apart of the Elrond character. Very happy I found this channel setting the story straight between the books I love and the movies
I am happy the movies made more people fans of Tolkien but I think it’s tragic how PJ’s interpretation has monopolized the fandom.
On casting of Hugo Weaving.
Matrix came out in March 1999 and he started filming LotR in Oct of 1999 so he would have been cast for the role before The Matrix had even hit theaters let alone had any success.
Question: if everything occurs in the Lord of the Rings in accordance with the plans of Eru Iluvatar---->is J. R. R. Tolkien Eru Iluvatar?
Your videos are fantastic. Thank you
Agree absolutely with your criticisms of how Elrond was written for the movie - and I did not like all those unnecessary scenes with him and Arwen and their endless laments. Strange how Peter Jackson found space to put in scenes that he just made up, but couldn't find space for scenes ACTUALLY FROM THE BOOKS that fans loved - like Scouring of the Shire and the true death of Saruman and the important blade from the Barrows that helped kill the Witch King.
Excellent Dave. TYVM once more, my friend.
I'm watching this after having viewed (and commented upon) the vid you provided on the Top 10: 2nd Age Characters and once more I find you reading my mind, heh, as I too, as mentioned in the other comment, felt Elrond was very much given short shrift in the film version. I can often forgive PJ for a number of changes he carried out but not this one. Character assassination for any purpose is not justified. :(
edit: Oh! Also wanted to ask, if you have seen the Fan-made live action film available on RUclips that focuses on Aragorn's "Hunt For Gollum" ? I'll try to track it down and come back here with the link but it is wonderfully made and casted. Highly recommended! :)
I missed you! Happy Holidays!
I laughed out loud when you said "Elrond is one of the most miscast characters"! Once again, friends have disagreed with me on this, but I agree with you. The way Hugo Weaving plays him just didn't feel right to me. It felt like they were struggling to grasp the nature of a great elf-lord and mainly did it mainly by shooting all the Elrond scenes (and Arwen scenes too) through some kind of filter that may me think I needed to clean my glasses. Besides, the character seemed to be devoid of emotion. Maybe the writers and director decided to pattern him after Mr. Spock.
I think he was meant to be more world weary than emotionless. He's seen and experienced so much war and death and just...life over the course of thousands of years that he is tired, and a little bitter after what happened with Isildur.
I don’t think “miscast” is the correct term, Hugo Weaving is a fantastic actor who can portray many types. Movie Elrond is simply badly adapted, it’s not the actor.
I'm getting caught up and feeling the music of all the pre-ordained chance happenings. Eru Iluvitar must have used some Auto-Tune when the Ainur sang the universe into existence 🎶
Love this channel, thank you!
If I understand correctly, l Ron is a healer, that would mean that he is sympathetic towards others and tries to work them through their problems. Because mental healing is more important than physical healing to the elves, because they will naturally heal most of the time. Also being half man half elf. Yeah, and also having AA friendship with the third and the fourth I think he would be quite friendly with dwarfs. Elves and man. However, I can see him speaking to his daughter and saying, you really don't want to love a man. You, you have so much of your life. You haven't even imagined yet. That and in the book she really is of no, never mind.
Quite a big difference from the only that's a was slain and came back so far.
17:45 - In the long term, it might get subducted, which surely would result in it's destruction! :D
Fighting Sauron with geological processes? A desperate yet creative idea 🤣
Worked for Eru with Numenor and Beleriand [geological processes]; so I'm clearly in good company!. God Creative :D
Welcome back Mellon
"Firstly, Elrond talks about men like he's not one of them, like he's completely above them..."
You know, that is a very good point. It didn't bother me when I saw the movie for the first time simply because I did not know his background. However, after I read Silmarillion many years later, his dismissive attitude to humans really began to irk me. I would also like to point out that even though he chose to be an elf, genetically speaking he is actually more man than an elf, as his mother was a human and his father only half an elf (and half a human). Fortunately, that characterization was in the movie only and Elrond is more compassionate towards humans in the book.
David of many colors 🤣 I love it
Before to watch your video, I have to say that Peter Jackson made most of his changes in order to appeal to people who never knew anything about the books, so he had to take audiovisual decisions but making concessions to political correctness as Arwen Undómiel turned into a d&d ranger or Boromir's diminished role.
Peter Jackson’s adaptation of The Lord of the Rings is a profusion of blunders and bad choices: The dispensing of Tolkien’s moral sense. The uncanonical failures of nerve. The utter disregard for proper tone. The elasticity of timing and pacing. The flattening of narrative. The interminable battle scenes. The complete destruction of characterization. The degradation of Tolkien’s prose, reducing beautiful sentiment to corny greeting card mush. The relentless trivialization of the story. And perhaps most egregiously, the facile appreciation of the book thinly veiling a profound and contemptible lack of comprehension of its themes. And this is in addition to the enthusiastic pilfering of an alarming amount of shots, scenes, and entire sequences from Ralph Bakshi’s animated adaptation from 1978. While it may be true that Jackson’s interpretation of The Lord of the Rings is far greater qualitatively that his interpretation of The Hobbit, well... that isn’t really saying much.
I know you’re passionate about this, but throwing around words like relentless, egregious, profound, facile, contemptible etc. doesn’t tell me about what you actually think and why. They just make me believe you think people who value the movies are evil morons. I suppose you could say anyone with sense already shares your opinion, but that still doesn’t help other people understand. I don’t think any admirable character of Tolkien’s would use language like that to, say, criticize a hobbit version of an elven lay.
For what it’s worth, I agree that the movies lose a lot and get important things wrong. But they also get some important things very right, things people who would never have read the books got to experience and think about. Tolkien’s moral sense isn’t entirely lost. Pity and mercy and loyalty and self-sacrifice and the unpredictable ways the will of Eru works still wind up being important, and clearly so. Some of the movie characterizations help people connect to characters who seem alien or distant or too archetypal on the page. I mean, hold whatever opinion you want, obviously. I just worry that your love of the books may be blinding you to what the movies have to offer, and keeping you from understanding the people who appreciate them.
@@muddlewait8844 - If you want me to elaborate, then ASK ME TO. Even though, yes, throwing around words like relentless, egregious, profound, facile, contemptible etc. DOES tell you about what I actually think and why. Entire monographs have been dedicated to examining just how profoundly Jackson fouled the bed. So either ask me to explain bow he did, and how I'm not the one who's blind here, or take your presumption and condescension somewhere else.
Hey, what about book? That got skipped.
Chance? Iluvatar’s Plan? I don’t know, I have a hard time imagining Gloin and Gimli just randomly wandering into Rivendell.
So gratifying to hear Dwarvish names pronounced correctly. Movies could not manage it.
just need to know this cuz its bugging me. Are you prouncing the names Gloin and Dain wrong? Or did they pronounce them wrong in the movies?
I take care to try and pronounce the names as accurately as possible, and there are a few cases where I think the movies get them wrong. Dain and Gloin are difficult names to get right though.
Dain is the name I've pronounced most inconsistently over the life of this channel. In some videos I've pronounced it Dane (like in the movies) and in others I've pronounced it Dine (like if it was a Sindarin name). I'm now 99% sure that both of these are wrong.
Dain is a real life Old Norse name, and all my research suggests that the most authentic way to pronounce this is daa in. At least, I believe that's what Tolkien intended. We can be very sure that Gloin is pronounced like glow in, because Michael Tolkien made up a few similar dwarf names as a child, and they followed this pronunciation. None of them rhymed with coin.
Of course if this is right then that means Thorin's father Thrain should be pronounced Thraa in, and Bard the the Bowman's son should be Baa in. (Like Balin but without the l).
What ought to be said also is that Aragorn is not some foreigner coming to Gondor but one of its most renowned captains from the time of Denethor´s father and so, with the slower ageing in some noble-bred Gondorian families, he could have all the time some friends there.
Why didn't Glorfindel join the fellowship?
Gandalf said that even a lord of the Elves like Glorfindel could not destroy Barad Dur or open the way to Mount Doom, that it was better to trust the hobbits friendship. I also believe it was said that Glorfindel was too powerful and wouldn't have been able to hide his presence, which would make secret impossible. Secrecy was more important than power because all the power of the elves and men in Middle Earth could not defeat Sauron or breach Mordor.
I think that Hugo Weaving did a great job at showing the respect and dignity.
What an amazing brilliant presentation amazing.
I would to see you cover the tale of beren and luthein
Whoa, what? The whole forming of the fellowship and Gollum's escape was part of some grad plan of Ilúvatar?! Where did that idea come from? That is not stated in any of Tolkien's books, and to my understanding, _valar_ basically abandoned Middle-Earth after the Second Age, whereas Ilúvatar himself had never even had any direct involvement in the events of the mortal lands. Given how mythical character he is even in the legends chronicled in Silmarillion, I seriously doubt he had any involvement in destroying the One Ring at all.
Agree with your criticism of the Elrond casting. I am OK with Frodo though. I think the problem with Frodo is how he is written. I think Wood could have done fine with a better script that portrayed Frodo as less helpless. I agree with the age thing though but what are you gonna do? I thought that Aragorn should have been a bit older and rougher and less pretty boy. But it is Hollywood.