I wasn't aware Malazan was controversial? Honestly I think its complexity is overemphasized. What really sets it apart and can make it a bit difficult to approach is the fact it is not written like most current fantasy. It really helps if you have read other genres of fiction, literary fiction and modern short stories in particular because Erikson uses a lot of techniques from outside the rather narrow confines of contemporary fantasy. Beyond that, having a community to talk to, ideally at least one person who has already read the books and can do the job of your hypothetical app, makes it easier to get through the books. But then, why read it if you don't enjoy it, no book is for everyone and reading it just for the bragging rights is not a good reason I think.
I totally agree with you on how unique the writing is among other fantasy. I am currently 200 pages into Gardens of the Moon and I LOVE it. I hope it stays this good. However! I tried it via Audible THREE different times over the last couple years and could not get past the first 2-3 hours, I could not make heads or tails of anything going on plotwise. I finally bought the actual book last month and sat down to read it and it was mind blowing how much more easy to pick it up was and how GOOD it was. This book has to be read it cannot be picked up via Audible as a first attempt imo. Even then though, some people just don't vibe with it. I know two friends/colleagues who could not get passed the first couple chapters because they could not follow the story, which made no sense to me.
@@graphthis2249 I'm just over halfway through the first book and tend not to enjoy too much magic or pointlessly complex stuff. So far it's just a straight up great book. Do lots of die hard fantasy fans dislike mystery and tension? Personal taste aside I don't see anything 'difficult' about it.
@@libraryofaviking It's well worth the effort, but it's time consuming and Erikson doesn't just point blank tell you everything. So it takes some effort on the reader's part, which most books don't these days. I'm on book 8 (reading publication order, including Esslemont side books, Novella's etc). And holy ... so good. I gave up after book 1 in 2014 but reread book 1 in 2019, been slowly plodding along since. No regrets. Not an effortless read though, at all. But among the best writing I've ever read, and I say that as an honours BA English graduate.
I still don't understand why people find the series confusing. I never felt confused at all. Maybe it's because I tend to just "go with the flow" as you mentioned. Granted, there is a lot of things that the reader doesn't know, but if I don't know something, I just file it away, figuring I'll find out later. Sure enough, later on, I usually find out and then I'm like "Aha!". It's like a jigsaw puzzle in some ways, I suppose.
I agree and would suggest the reason is because most people want these simple little books that have no depth and require them not to think. This is a series where you have to simultaneously retain information, connect pieces together all while following the order/path of the story. In truth it’s probably a bit to much for most.
For me, personally, it was learning all the names and titles and locations, etc etc and remembering them. Once I got started memorizing all that, it became much much easier and enjoyable. Book one i was CONSTANTLY flipping back and forth from the story, to the index lol
Yeah I just don’t worry so much if there is a passage and I’m not quite sure what’s going on. I’ll speculate a little, but the point is like you said the reader isn’t supposed to know everything all the time. It honestly makes it feel more interesting to me at least.
I find it's mostly a memory thing that leads to confusion. Forgetting stuff. There are purported to be close to or around 700 NAMED characters in the series. I have an awful memory retention so I've had to practically STUDY the books (Malazan wiki Fandom, TorRereads, google slides a guy made to review etc).. I've also in addition to reading the books, LISTENED to 6 of them, more than once while doing mundane work, to refresh my memory. I'm reading Book 8, Toll the Hounds, having read Reaper's Gale and Return of the Crimson Guard in December 2022, and The Bonehunters December 2021... huge time gap there...and finding I have to constantly look up stuff... my fault for the time gap in reading more book... I didn't even realize it was that long... I read a few of the Novellas in early 2021 too, but work was crazy busy... just didn't have time spring/summer/fall. I keep forgetting who people are from earlier books etc. Because of work and life I don't always have the luxury of time and energy to read as much as I want. I do hard labour work, so it's been 4 months since I read the last book.
Your experience is totally valid! As much as I love this series, I do not recommend it lightly to most fantasy readers. I understand the “go with the flow” advice, but I don’t think that works for most first-time readers. I did find it easiest to “flow” with it when I was focusing more on themes than plot, and I also gave up on looking up material to confirm what I read-that was too much of a chore for me. Loved the Erikson not spoon-feeding part 🤣!
Hello, Johan! I’m sorry to hear that Malazan didn’t work out for you, but I think you explained your experience very well. If you do end up deciding to give it another try, of course I wish you the best and would be happy to chat about the series anytime with you! ⚔️
I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy it! It’s not for everyone, but very cool that you’re giving it a shot. You don’t need a PhD to have an opinion on books, and I appreciated hearing your views. Will be cool to see what you think if you ever decide to finish it off. Happy reading!
Your channel has been very helpful. I always go straight to your chapter recaps after I get through a chapter. Funny how I always end up realizing that I understood the story a lot more than I initially thought.
I agree and it’s OK for people to even view book one as a grind due to a lack of context and exhaustive references to things you know nothing about (yet). It is. But the further you get into the series the more you appreciate the stuff you didn’t previously understand AND now totally understand. I don’t think it could have been done another way IMHO. It would have made the world start too small, too confined. If people can just understand that a lack of context and a massive well developed world is just the initial cost to starting this series then they will be fine. People just need to understand that they will come to understand it all. In time and It will all make sense…eventually, then people do fine. By the end of book one you need more. By the end of book 2 you know you are in for a lot of reading because you must have it all now that you are beginning to come to grips with the established world and the players. The fact that the main series and the books that surround this series covering oft referenced events (like the “Night of Knives”) is written by two buddies who fully developed the lore and the world these events would be set in before embarking on the full book helps explain why they just drop you into the first one with no apologies.
Actually read them twice. It is interesting seeing these type videos as the reasons people love or hate them are the same. But I wish you would finish Deadhouse Gates. You are introduced to perhaps the most co traversal character as well as one of the most beloved. But either way, avoid the Wiilki at all costs.
Three years ago Gardens became my first fantasy book. I had no idea that fantasy could be written like this and this well. And I obviously had no other fantasy to compare it to. I was hooked and have been reading only fantasy ever since. Took me 14 months to read, while reading no other book. My suggestion - and it's just a suggestion - the first five books can be read as stand alones, so just read them as standalones. They each have their own stories with beginnings and ends. It's only during Bonehunters, book 6, that they all start coming together and by that time you will be familiar with the major characters and world. I also found that I don't need to know all things, just as I still don't know and will never know all things of our own world.
I tried it for the first time over a year ago and got halfway through book 7 before stopping when I realized life got in the way and I had read like 50 pages in a month. I took a break, read some familiar books to readjust, read Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy for the first time, and then decided to dive back in. I read the entire series in 3 months, finishing about a month ago, and I'm diving into the other canonical books outside of Book of the Fallen, and it's been an AMAZING experience. It knocked Wheel of Time from my number one spot which I never thought would ever be possible, but it happened. The best worldbuilding, some of the best characters, and just some of the most emotions I've EVER felt reading fantasy.
I loved the books. And the first one had me totally baffled. I figured pretty early that it's ok to be in a scene and not understand a damn thing. It's like when you're a kid and you go somewhere in your town you've never been and everything feels so alien and different that it's a thrill.
I had a very similar experience with yours starting out, but I stuck with it and Malazan became one of my favorite series. Here’s what I would recommend if you decide to continue: 1. Dedicate a good chunk of time to reading each book. I found that I struggled understanding what was going on initially if I just spent 40 pages a day reading. Once I committed to reading close to 100 pages a day or more, all of the characters and plot fell into place. 2. Read through book 3, Memories of Ice. If you’re not sold by this point, I think it’s safe to say that you won’t enjoy the rest of the series. I was sold with the series after this book. 3. Go with the flow, like Phillip Chase suggested. You won’t understand everything, or even most of what’s going on initially. Give it time though. You will start to pick up things. Reading Malazan has made me a better reader. It truly is an amazing series. I think what gives people the most trouble is not giving the books enough time. You really need to shut things down and just focus on reading. I couldn’t do this initially with my work schedule and my reading suffered because of it. However, once I had free time to read, I dedicated a lot of my time to reading this series. My enjoyment picked up immensely. Best of luck! No series is for everyone. I appreciate your channel and insight to fantasy!
I found a chapter per day was more than enough to follow the story. The best advice I can give to most newcomers to the series is to stop trying to understand everything. You're not "missing" anything, Erikson just hasn't spelled it out yet. It doesn't start to all tie together until the end of The Bonehunters.
"Reading Malazan has made me a better reader" Not only that - I just watched the new Kevin Costner "Horizon" movie last week and heard people complaining about couple of characters. They were in a caravan chain (wink) and seemed aside from the main story. But knowing Malazan, I now trust that a good author/storyteller will fit them in the story in the most satisfying way. So I enjoyed they arc as what it was - mainly meeting and knowing them a bit. I can't recall this happening to me with other books.
You've earned my subscription because I completely agree with on Malazan. I couldn't understand it and I tried super hard. (I also went to school for Business Management and also abandoned the series during Deadhouse Gates and only got that far because everyone talked about how amazing it is).
Dude just read the story. Your not studying for a test. You don’t need to understand everything in one read thru. Just like real life there will always be parts you can’t comprehend just go with the flow
"I just wanted to read. I didn't want to study a book." I felt the exact same way when I tried reading Gardens of the Moon. A lot of the fans also just take for granted that a lot of the books must be re-read, but I just don't think that's for me at all. Reading fiction for me is about entertainment and excitement and it felt by reading Gardens of the Moon I was studying or that taking a studious approach would be the only successful way of getting the book and enjoying it. I don't enjoy complexity for complexity's sake, but that's just me, after all. I'm glad there are many others who enjoy it!
80% through the final book, The Crippled God and have to admit that half the time I have not a clue what's going on. Just want it to be over at this stage
Oh dear, I'm so sorry your experience was so unhappy. I was fortunate enough to start the series a month after 'Gardens of the Moon' was published. Thus, had no choice but to go with the flow, and jump right into it. Your research and prep work is what doomed you. Additionally, because each book (mostly) took a year to come out, I did a full series re-read with each new publication. Made it so much easier and enjoyable. ⚔
After you've read Malazan Book of the Fallen, a lot of other fantasy series just can't measure up Example... Wheel of Time WOT is a longer series but feels comparatively simple and almost child like in the way it's written Also Malazan has Dinosaurs with sword for arms
@@catonkybord7950 not really a children's book But it does seem catered towards teenage lads who are getting into reading epic fantasy Saying that ... my wife is reading it and loving the experience 😂
🗡I’m currently reading book 8, “Toll the Hounds.” I’m not a fan of epic multi-volume fantasy. At 60 yo, long book series feel like a life sentence. However, Malazan has its hooks in me. I Google stuff all the time. I can certainly understand why there readers who are not fans of Malazan. I’m not a fan of Faulkner, despite my efforts to read his works. Just not for me. Same with Game of Thrones. It’s all a matter of taste, not a moral or intellectual failure on the part of the reader.
I definitely don't have a phd, but I do love Malazan. Sorry, your video does slightly trigger me...you knew you were supposed to go with the flow, but stopping after every chapter for research doesn't really sound like going with the flow. Doing that with any book would sort of ruin any connection with characters and storyline in my opinion 🤷♀️⚔️
Well it's kind of hard to "go with the flow" when it means forcing yourself to continue doing something that you find tedious, aggravating, and confusing...
I think the books are fun bc they're different from the norm of every other fantasy book lol. Wasn't a disaster on my end. It threw my expectations completely aside which was something I hadn't realized I needed. And I enjoy short story writing. That said, I'm not a Malazan fanboy but I liked it!
Whilst I have loved my experience of Malazan so far, I completely understand and experienced the difficulty of not knowing whether I should know something in the story. It's hard to know whether information is being withheld or if you've just forgotten at a certain point lol. It also doesn't help with having some unreliable narrating adding further confusion haha. Fair play to you giving it a shot though! Great video as always.
I made it 6 books before giving up. I love the characters and the world, and most of the 'micro-plots' are pretty great. But the 'macro-plot' still made no sense, and was just needlessly complex.
I wish you had been able to make it through Deadhouse Gates! That book, just by itself, really is mindblowing. I hope you'll pick it up again someday. You were right to not google, btw. It's very hard to avoid Malazan spoilers because things so often connect in unexpected ways.
I read all 10 books with the support of Mike’s read-along, as well as various other online resources, many of which you listed. And while these well-intentioned people did help my ‘understanding’ of the text to some extent, they did little to advance my enjoyment of the series. There were a few entertaining aspects of the series, but preciously too few of them to offset the consistently irritating writing style of the author. The biggest obstacles I could not get through were thin character work, lack of a coherent plot, and needlessly endless obfuscation for its own sake. Many devotees have quoted such characteristics as part of the series’ charm. I don’t get it. Not my preferred bag of bananas.
Best part about reading Malazan for me was being immersed in the scenes, feeling just as confused, just as terrified, and just as devasted as the characters as they experience everything. This also rings true for my first read through of the first book. I didn't try to figure shit out nor did I try making conjectures with what is happening because I was seeing things through Paran and Crokus, who are just as confused as I am, so I felt like I experienced the book as it should be, from the eyes of an outsider.
Ya, I feel like just telling people that book one just drops you into the world with no context is enough to make people shy away. Any who are wise enough to not take this as a warning but rather a promise of spectacular world building tend to do well. Trying to research this series before starting it is IMHO people putting way too much effort into the wrong thing. Everyone who reads this series will become an independent expert on the world and characters to some degree. They might leave you with little context in book one, but it’s so well rewarded later on that I don’t see anything but good from this approach. Beautiful series
Im at the last 3 chapters of The Crippled God. I started Malazan with Mike’s read along and was very upset when he quit. But I was ok with it because Jimmy was doing a very good job at covering the books. I was all in. It’s super dense but I worked through it and likes most of the books up to book six. I even liked Toll the hounds. But I’m to the point where I wish I was done with Malazan. I’m very interested in the world and the lore but Steve’s writing is not for me. The choices he made just to go against the grain are frustrating.
@@waldo8791 i dont think he plans on picking it up any time soon. I know a lot people love this series and maybe the ICE books are better since it’s a different writer. But I might not read mother Malazan book in a long time. I hope you have a better experience than I did but the parts that are cool In this series don’t out weigh the all convoluted nonsense and the philosophical bills hit everyone and their mom go on and on about. Whats the point of having all these cool characters if they never show up.
This is pretty much a spot-on explanation of why I had difficulty getting into these books. I’ve tried 4 or 5 times (250-350 pages in, perhaps a bit more), but it just never grabbed me. I’ll probably give it one more shot before giving up completely.
I stopped after Deadhouse Gates. I found the story to be incoherent. For me the story telling felt too fragmented and disjointed. It's not that we as readers didn't understand, it's that the story as it is told isn't understandable without apparently a very large investment in the series. It felt like incoherent hop-scotch storytelling from what I recall. Like telling a 10-book fantasy series through very small random puzzle pieces strewn about the room at random. While some readers may appreciate the mysteriousness of that method of the unknown, for me it made the series unintelligible and I couldn't become invested in the story or characters. Malazan suffered from similar problems with its story-telling style as did The Dark Tower series by S. King for me. Both extremely popular so what do I know, but for me they were both incoherent. They weren't mysterious, they're just disorganized and disjointed like a young teenage girl telling a story of their weekend that hops around 15 times and has no direction. What am I reading/listening to? It's more of a verbal puzzle that you have to piece together over a long span of time. I think Malazan is written in a way that it is meant to appeal to very curious individual type readers. The hook is that the books don't tell a coherent story, so if you want to try to piece it together, you have to buy the next book in the series and keep going. It's like a fantasy who-done-it, except the mystery is the story, not the murder to solve. Instead of reading to discover who did the deed, you have to keep reading to learn in bits what you're actually reading the series for, what the story actually is (plot, characterization, etc.). Not to my taste. It's more interesting for human psychology to me than it is as a fantasy series at this point.
Interesting The 3 points that were "problematic" for you are the reasons I now want to pick up gardens of the moon. Thank you again, your videos are really helpful, you clearly state facts and believe me, this is a breath of fresh air in the booktubers wilderness. Oh, by the way, if what you described had a confusing effect, don't get close to Grant Morrison's Final Crisis nor Superman Beyond 😊
While I found similar issues with being confused. The funny part about Malazan fans saying they aren't confused is most of them when I ask them about specific plot points or character motivations they can't answer. "They understand" but the truth is they aren't fully grasping every point. I had conversations with several people about deadhouse gates and barely anyone could answer why half the things that happen in that book happen. I had to reread several parts to get a handle on it. The end result was finding a plot so convoluted and stupid I couldn't believe anyone would ever praise it. The really unfortunate thing for me is that I don't think the character work is good at all and much of the plot is driven by constant God interventions to the point where it barely feels like any of the characters have any actual power or choice in the things happening. So much of the plot feels convenient, even the parts that aren't so convoluted that they make some amount of sense. After reading about half the series I don't think I have ever read anything so overrated. At best I felt the books were average or maybe slightly above and at their worst they were below average. Never once did I see this grand fantasy epic on par with other top tier fantasy. I hate to be this way but I think people like to say they like this series because it makes them feel smart that so many people say they don't get it. I can't tell you how many times I have had conversations with Malazan fans that can barely describe their "favorite" character or give details about things in the world. Hell I had a conversation with one huge fan about how the non human races in Malazan barely feel different than humans and the guy said he disagreed and asked for an example. I brought up Mappo who was a "Trell" and the guy was like "Mappo is human Trell are humans." Had to pull it up on the wiki to show him. So I don't think most fans even truly understand.
I’m just a casual reader of Malazan, not one of the huge fans. I read them while the second half of the series was still being published, reread only the first few a second time. Gardens of the Moon is a pretty terrible book with many of the flaws of a first novel, and IMHO it wasn’t a great idea to make entry into the series THIS hard. But the book gets better once you’ve read the second book in the same arc. However, Philip was right: there’s only one way to read Malazan, and it’s to go with the flow and not worry about “understanding”, just absorbing what is going on, without seeking for explanations that won’t come… yet. It’s not a puzzle to decipher at first (though it will become partially that later on), it’s deeply ancient and lost knowledge you won’t understand until you meet characters who do understand them, partially. Malazan in many ways is a quest for knowledge, and it’s one for the readers too. What makes no sense whatsoever in GotM will later become simple and easy to follow. The second book is already a much better story (alas you stopped before reaching the “good part”, it’s really the last act that’s amazing and gruesomely tragic) that has all the power of very ancient epics. It’s with the third book that you start really being dragged in and start to understand a bit what is going on. After that there are certainly very puzzling and very baffling things going on now and again, the cast and world keep expanding, and some of past history in particular is steeped in ambiguities and mysteries, but the series as a whole becomes more “intricate and captivating” than “complicated”. I was able to enjoy it as a casual reader picking up the new book each year. But GotM I only appreciated on a reread. I initially hated that book and most of the characters. But by book 3 they turn into old friends. But if you’re ever tempted to give it another try I’d recommend going back to the essence of what Philip said by “going with the flow”. Just dive in and let it wash over you. Don’t try to do research or to understand beforehand the world. For good or bad (and with the first book I think there’s quite of bit of bad that will be turned into good only books later) being quite lost most of the time is an intentional feature of the early series. It’s like being an anthropologist discovering a new continent full of mysteries going as far back as prehistory, and having to pick up the threads one by one. It’s not a series to be too analytical with, not initially and until the rules of the game are explained, or it will drive you pretty crazy. It’s definitely not a matter of intelligence, I think it’s probably more a matter of expectations and placing the bar for yourself too high in regard to how much you should understand by book 2. But it’s also not a series for everyone. It has put off A LOT of very experienced Fantasy readers. Not everyone enjoys an experience as confounding as Malazan can be, nor everyone finds the world building and characters nearly captivating and intriguing enough to make the massive efforts necessary to plow through the more difficult early books.
Hey man I just finished my third reading of the main 10 books and just now feel I understand maybe 90% of the entire story. That has been one of my favorite parts of this series is every time I read it I discover something I missed or didn't fully understand the last time. Also the secondary novels by esselmont really adds more detail to the whole story.
There is no series as rewarding to (re)read as Malazan. I think its best to go with the flow. Every time you learn something new that put previous events into a different context it just feels amazing. You have so many "oh shit" moments when you read Malazan and even more when you reread it. I absolutely love it. ^^
I binged through the whole Series last year. Took Me 5 months of reading, some 5-6 hours everyday. It's quite the effort and requires dedication as it is, so doing all the additional research and reading up along with it will only make it seem harder and more of a chore than it needs to be. The First Half of every book in the Series is difficult to get into -New Locations, New Characters and setting up of Multiple Events that will play out in The Second Half. Every book is like a collection of stories and there will be ones that will interest you less. Best Thing to do is go with it, just keep reading, remembering names of locations, people and events that's it...don't try to force connections coz usually those come much deep into the series, if they do that is.! There is no overarching plot. It just isn't your typical series. Whole idea is being in another world as a series of epic events take place there and experiencing them through the different characters. I was told to take notes and do all kinda work that I felt would only complicate the experience further. Glad I didn't do any of that. I just kept reading and let Me tell You...It's super rewarding once You are able to get into it... Just keep reading!
For anyone on the fence, watch A.P. Canavan's video called: "8-ish popular misconceptions about the Malazan Book of the Fallen - Is the series for you?" so you understand more clearly.
I would consider myself a pretty avid reader I'm about 1/3 of the way through Garden and idk what the fuck is going on, or why I should care, characters don't get time to build up, things places, armies and people are referenced without any groundwork to world building or anything honestly it's just a big shit show. That being said, just as I was about to quit for the 3rd time I ran into Paran and Whiskey Jack, things started getting interesting enough to keep me reading. I'm somewhere around where Tattersail and the 4 high mages with one arm's army gets wrecked the story has gotten interesting at this point but sorry this writing is a giant mess. *Edited for grammar.*
I think I've tried about three times to read this series, and each time end up giving up somewhere around book 3 and moving on to something I can actually enjoy reading.
"Almost feels wrong." No my friend, it is 100% wrong to base a review of a series by just reading 1 and a quarter books in that 26 book series. Just review what you have read. Rename your title to Gardens of the Moon review.
After a long break from fantasy, and reading in general, Malazan is intriguing for me and is definitely on my TBR. However I feel like I need to get some more fantasy experience under my belt first before tackling this series. I'm going to try and get through the WOT first and see how I fare on a series of such grand scope, then maybe I'll give it a shot. Realistically though it's probably 2 years away for me at this point.
After reading all of Stormlight Archive I made myself choose between Malazan and WoT. I am currently on book 6 of Malazan Book of the Fallen. I am so happy I made that choice but I’m also nervous that I might not enjoy the WoT series after Malazan.
@@waldo8791 I'm actually thinking of doing WOT - SA - Malazan because i share the same feelings as you juat based on my personal tastes. However I'm sure you will still enjoy WOT, it will just be a completely different experience
People often say they tried so hard to like this series. I'm one of them. I really tried, but I realized at some point I shouldn't have to try to like something. Nor should I have to overlook bad writing in the hope that at some point I can say this series was worth reading.
The biggest hurdle to understanding Malazan is your own expectations. The second is patience. If you keep going, it gets easier, not because the material is simpler, but because your brain gets used to processing information the way Erikson wants to feed it to you. My advice would be to take breaks between books, but don't give up.
It also helps that after The Bonehunters, the cast finally remains mostly static, so it's easier to follow what's going on in the grand scheme. The earlier books are really tough to tie together until you reach Bonehunters and it all starts to finally tie together.
I will never forget the moment I think 3000 pages or so into the series when I finally learned some key things and had a holy shit moment...From that point on, in spite of my slow pace at reading, I've just kept at it, looked up stuff online as needed when I've forgotten things. I find if you just keep at it and have patience things become clearer eventually with even just a bit of effort on the readers part. I read Return of the Crimson Guard in about a week in December. Also read Reaper's Gale. but then 4 months went by and now I'm into Toll the Hounds and a tad lost... but I'm just keeping at it, googling things on Malazan wiki fandom etc as needed.
Hello! For your info: I got PhDs in Englisch, Latin and Ancient Greek Literature - so you do not need a degree to appreciate Malazan, because I absolutely share your feelings. I have finished 7 books and I am about to give up. Let me tell you: It doesn't get better. And what you consider your shortcomings concerning the understanding of the world presented are in fact Erikson's shortcomings of being able to present the world in a comprehensible way. I don't mind diving deep into subjects - on the contrary I love challenging and demanding books, but - in my humble opinion - Malazan is so badly written, that it simply defies any reasonable approach and understanding. Not everything that is "complex" is therefore automatically good. Reading should be fun and an intellectual challenge - but for me it is not fun anymore and the challenge is no longer interesting.
Quite a few people just as qualified as you are have deemed Erikson's writing to be exceptional. Malazan is exceptionally well written, and is not meant to be an easily understood story. It's sad that you don't understand the story but at the same time think it's not "intellectually challenging".
A pity you didn't enjoy it. I still tear up when I recall the ending of Deadhouse Gates. I had no idea the series was considered controversial. Perhaps his shorter, more humorous works about Bauchelain and Korbal Broach would be more enjoyable. They're not nearly so dense and don't have a ton of different things to remember. You'll probably want to steer clear of R. Scott Bakker's books. They're a rather hefty undertaking, and unrelentingly serious.
I can totally relate to your view. I stopped reading Deadhouse Gates because I got very confused. Recently I started it again and I have been seeing videos from Iskar commenting on the chapters and it has helped me a lot. So I finished the book today and I very much liked it. Maybe give it another try with some external help like these videos from Iskar. Cheers!
If you ever go back to the series, a couple of bits of advice. The first is, don't try to be prepared for it, because as you said, you'll never be sufficiently prepared for it. Whenever you feel like you don't understand something, just chant the mantra of "read on and find out". Other than that, I would probably recommend the Tor Reread of the Fallen as a readalong companion. It does a pretty decent job of summaries the things you can expect to have understood at various stages of each book.
Erickson says this himself, he follows "Show, don't Tell" writing styles. While that's becoming more common (thank-e sai) Ericson takes the concept a step farther, sometimes showing the same time sequence from different POV's, and in paying attention to each POV's reactions, the details they notice, etc.. you get a much richer picture of the characters than from other traditional devices, imo. It's tricky, and you have to read carefully, but since I trust that Erickson also 'wrote carefully', I can be relatively sure that minor, but confusing discrepancies that other readers might pass over as an error are actually plot or characterisation details. Sometimes for plot/characters that we don't pick back up until a book or two later. I vall that brilliance, and appreciated every nugget I found. I listened the first time, which is hard, so I can't wait to re-read!
This is absolutely valid and honestly if the reading experience doesn't bring you joy and it leaves you feeling like rubbish, it ain't worth it. I have a couple of experiences exactly like yours. Life is too short and we should stick with things that we're passionate about. You do you mate!
regarding your comment about wanting an app that can tell you whether you should understand something by a given point. I think this highlights one of the pitfalls we have as readers: we view understanding as a boolean. we either understand something, or we don't but that model doesn't really apply to a text like Malazan because our comprehension of most concepts is built over time, piece by piece. and that's done very purposefully as Erikson uses these piecemeal reveals to re-contextualise his concepts. our understanding grows but it also changes.
It's not controversial at all, just written without a proper plot structure and pretentious fantasy readers gush about it, because it makes them feel superior. Kinda similar with Bakker's Second Apocalypse series, where pseudo philosophical nonsense & grape are favoured over things like an engaging plot or characters that aren't completely despicable sociopaths.
Your first point is why I quite halfway through. The prose was good, but I didn't get the point of continuing to read something that doesn't have a plot
I feel like your title is misleading, it gives the impression that you've read the whole series while you actually only read one and a half book. I've finished book 8 and plan to continue soon, I think that your main problem was to not go with the flow. Events from the first book are still being referenced and viewed in a new light much later in the series, so it is fine to not understand everything. I hope you give this series a new chance and for example follow along wirh the Ten Very Big Books podcast
Well it's kind of hard to "go with the flow" when it means forcing yourself to continue doing something that you find tedious, aggravating, and confusing...
@@adamaj74 that is for sure, totally skip a book if you don't enjoy it. However, the stress of understanding everything often might take at least me out of the experience
One of the problems I see lots of newcomers to the series have is trying to "understand" what's going on. It's a waste of mental labour. You really have to just read it, and trust that it will make sense by the end. The reality is that outside of each individual book, much of what's happening doesn't clearly tie together or even make sense until Erikson wants it to. Erikson doesn't start to spell it out for the reader until the end of The Bonehunters.
Here's an idea: Try starting with the Path to Ascendancy trilogy. Much lighter read. Much more linear and very enjoyable. It will be an excellent entry point. Follow this up with Night of Knives and then go to Gardens of the Moon. That way; much of the magic, characters and plot will make more sense. This isn't the "recommended" reading order but I think it's an ideal platform particularly for anyone struggling with the first couple of books. I started reading Gardens of the Moon twice and gave up 2/3 of the way through both times. I finally stuck it out on a third attempt and by the end of Memories of Ice, everything slotted into place. I've read them all 3 times now and it's worth that punishing start.
Honestly I hate understanding thr complex stuff, but grow to lobe it after i begin understanding with time Is this book like that or is it gonna confuse me till the last word Should I read it?
The only trigger I’m getting is from you stopping mid book 2. I beg of you not to. Book 2 gets so unbelievably good in the back half. If you read it and it’s not for you, fine, but please please please as it through.
I audiobooked it so I guess I kinda had to "go with the flow" the first time through. The first book was fine for me but by the end of the second I was hooked. I just started the series a second time after a few years and the first book is incredible now that I understand the world.
This was a good take on these books. I have just finished the 7th book after a bit of time off, and I found myself really tiring of Ericson's style. I sincerely feel like this book could have been 1/3 its length and would have lost nothing of real value. The repetitive nature of the narrative really stood out in this book, with so many duplicated events or types of events. I do love his world building and the way he weaves in geology. I love his magic, and the comic parts and the action. And always Karsa Orlong. But I also tire of the same old pathos coming out again and again. So many characters have the same set of emotional responses that feel overwhelmingly emo and trite and limited, and sooo repetitive. I'll probably finish the series but I need another rest.
French guy here, I read GotM twice in english and I won't lie, I was super lost the first time, yet you adjust pretty quickly after a while. You just have to go with the flow and you will understand glimpse of it eventually. Good luck!
My first try at Malazan I gave up, too. I was looking for something new and read some glowing reviews so I went to go buy them but they weren't available in the US yet. I had to order them from the UK, so I ordered all of them that were available in paperback (3, I think) to make the shipping make some kind of sense. You got farther than I did; I didn't even finish Gardens of the Moon. I've read thousands of books but this was too much. Those books I paid all that money to ship across the pond just sat in a box for a few years mocking me whenever I looked in that box for my failure. When I decided to give it another try, it just worked. A few more books had been published and I could get them on my Kindle by that point. I'd never heard of Philip Chase or his "just go with the flow" advice but that's basically what I did. I allowed myself to not hold the entire thing in my head or feel like I always knew what things meant. And it worked. I loved it (the timing worked out well, too, as Crippled God was published right around the time I was finishing Dust of Dreams). I've read most of the Esslemont books, too. It really does reward sticking it out, but you wouldn't be the first or the last person to need a second attempt.
I just finished the whole series two weeks ago (I started because of Mike's Book Reviews too!), and I found there are a few types of confusion I went through, over the course of the series. One part is confusion because I didn't know enough yet, as a lot of things are discussed more in-depth in later books. One part was confusion because things were happening in other Malazan books that weren't part of the big ten (like a MAJOR CHARACTER DEATH that is hardly touched on in the big ten). One part was confusion because I just wasn't paying close enough attention; I've gotten used to being able to skim books because most authors hold your hand through the story, but Erikson trusts you enough not to do that. I decided around book 7 that I wanted to re-read the whole series after I finished it, and I plan to start that in another year or so after I've decompressed from the ending. I like that you are giving your experience on the books; it's definitely not for everyone, and that's ok! I spent the first six books thinking I was going to DNF the series, and now I'm glad that I didn't, but I think it's equally valid to say it didn't capture you and move on to a different book/series. I was also helped along a LOT by the Ten Very Big Books podcast, and Iskar Jarak's youtube channel, both of which pointed out things that I missed, and reinforced things that I thought were important.
⚔ I was introduced to this Series when I think book 4 or 5 was out and I was CONSUMED by it. Something about the expansive narrative the hordes of characters each with interesting and unique quirks and personalities (to a point). Characters you actively disliked and liked. The heartbreak the joy, the horror of the series and setting, the comedic relief moments that punctuated the overall dark theme of the series was such a pull for me. And because of that, the effect it had on me as a fantasy enjoyer, I am one of those annoy people that the first book I recommend people read after dabbling in fantasy is Gardens of the Moon.
As a Malazan fan, I'm gonna be the first to say that I would NEVER recommend it for everything. Yikes. It's a lot of book, and it is super dense, with a lot of lines to follow. I'm also the type of reader who isn't possibly going to catch everything when I read dense and detailed fantasy series. For me at least, what I loved so much about it was the profound character moments. Deadhouse Gates is still one of my favorite books of all time. I go with the flow very much when reading these, and not trying to obsess over the details, but I also totally agree with your idea of a "should I know about this by now" app for this series XD Honestly, kudos to you for sharing your opinion about this, and I think it's super cool that you read it and shared your thoughts. I totally get that it isn't for everyone. I'll be re-reading it, but that's not a commitment that everyone can or wants to make, and I don't blame them for that. ⚔
MBoTF is a magnificent read , along with all the Esslemont contributions it has literally changed not only the course of my fantasy reading but my life, I know that sounds dramatic but I now have a core group of friends from all over the world (some of who I've actually met) and we have as close if not closer bond than my physical friends.... just finished my re-read of the whole series and its safe to say as with Tolkien you pick up on new things along the second journey along with storlines having even greater resonance... saying all that, not every series is for everyone... Read what makes you happy.... First In, Last Out
It's TBR for me. I have a copy of Gardens on my bookshelf that a friend gave me. Don't know when I'll get to it as I got hundreds of others on my TBR list, about to start Eon for example, and currently reading a long history book. But someday...
Malazan fan and I've done 4 rereads of the series. My #1 fantasy. Read what you like! Although the way the vid's title is written...it doesn't really indicate you barely read 2 books.
This is better than every other series written. Of course, most people aren't gonna like it. It was after reading Gardens that I realized there was so much flack online.. i just picked up a random book.. my mind was blown.. then suddenly realized there's a lot of naysayers. Like wtf? I'm not surprised
I've tried to read the series so many times only to give up in anger and frustration. My experience reading the first page was something like this: "The stains of rust seemed to map blood seas on the black, pocked surface of Mock's Vane." What does "map blood" mean? Are you trying to say it's rusty? Just say it's rusty. I don't know what a Mock's Vane is but since it's capitalized, I guess it's a proper name... don't worry about it for now. "The winds were contrary the day columns of smoke..." The winds were contrary? Who talks like this? Is the wind blowing the wrong way or something? "The Vane's silence announced the sudden falling-off of the sea breeze that came clambering over the ragged walls of Mock's Hold, then it creaked back into life as the hot, spark-scattered and smoke-filled breath of the Mouse Quarter reached across the city to sweep the promontory's heights." What's a promontory? Are you saying the wind stopped blowing and then started again? Dude. If you can say the wind blew, just say the wind blew. I don't want to re-read every sentence on the first page until it makes sense. I don't like poetry and I don't have time to waste trying to decipher a story I'm not even sure I'll like yet.
Didn't know about the 'overly-complex' aspect that people say about Malazan.. I'm on book 4 and it is awesome, does not feel confusing at all. It feels like playing dark souls or elden ring, you build up your information as you go.. don't panic and just go with the flow.. its really not that overwhelming. On you saying that you can't care for the characters because they are not obviously good or bad: well why would you want a book that is so simplistic that you don't have to consider these things or think for yourself? Especially in context of war and what war brings? I get that not every book is for everyone and its ok to not enjoy everything, but I feel like this is not exactly a fair assessment of Malazan.
I was a part of a group of friends who started reading about a month ago. I'm the only one left. It's difficult, but I feel I'll be rewarded by going through with it.
I don't dislike GotM because it's complex, I dislike it because it's badly written. Deadhouse Gates was much better, but I felt little to no connection to most of the characters. I got about 100 pages into book 3 before I decided these books are not for me. Talking about this on social media some time ago, a few people compared this author to Gene Wolfe, another writer who many consider to be 'complex'. I think the difference between them can be put thus: Wolfe tells you nothing, but gives you everything. Erikson tells you everything, but gives you nothing. I wish I did like these books though. How great would it be to have 10,000 pages of a story you love !? If only.
I started reading this way back in high school and loved it from the get go. It definitely just drops you in media res. I think I should finally reread this series...
Your video title says, "I read this...series...", but you didn't. You read the first and half of the second book. Hardly in a position to judge the entire series. Try finishing it, and you might just enjoy it!
Everyone is being way too nice here. Just call a spade a spade folks. Malazan is difficult to read...yes...we get that. Calculus is also hard and remains unpleasant until you put in the work to get it. Call it being "smart" or just "perserverance" but certainly you can't have a lazy spoon fed attitude about it going into it.
Yeah true, but the series is also pretty flawed and sometimes seems even Erikson has no idea what he’s doing, so he just hand waves problems away or obfuscates way more than most novels do lol (Spoilers below) For example, T’amber is suddenly possessed by a time defying goddess? Uh wait when did this happen? We don’t know? Oh never mind she’s gone now…but she resolved the entire conflict in 2 pages. Uh aren’t you gonna stay around though to help? No? Ok…
@ssj4rit I agree...Erikson's biggest fault is that he tries to manage to many storylines at once and things tend to just fall off a cliff all at once with no fanfare. That being said, there is no perfect book and the highs in this series far outweighs the lows.
Everybody certainly has such different tastes. I'd heard how "complex" Malazan was, which put me off it a while. Then I finally got around to reading Gardens of the Moon and it was my 2022 book of the year! Just Fantastic! There were a few things I didn't like as much about it (for instance this awesome buildup to this seemingly unbeatable baddy then at the end.. well..) But overall I thought it was amazing - and many (Fans of Malazan) say it's the worst in the series?! Wow that just makes me excited to read more of the series because I absolutely Loved Gardens of the Moon.
Gardens of the Moon was impenetrable to me my first read through. I forced myself to get through book 4 and by that time I decided if I started all the way over I would probably know enough about the characters world and magic system to understand what's going on. I was right. Now I believe Garden of the Moon's story is very simple, in spite of the political intricacies. Anyway, thank you for your courage in posting a less than stellar review. I like the series but I also cherish a diversity of points of view
I've not long since finished Gardens of the Moon and I'm not sure about it. It was in a word, bizarre! I kind of liked it, but I'm more baffled about certain things and looking around at everyone loving it and I'm just not seeing why. I probably will read the second one, but it does make me worried to think that if I read it casually, I'll just miss everything and not have a clue what's happening. Having said that, the prose is truly beautiful and is a pleasure to read, even if I haven't a clue what's going on! Part of me wants to google stuff to get a better grip of it all, but part of me wants to rise to the challenge of figuring it out
It took me until house of chains to really love this series. As a fantasy fan I hadn’t read anything overly complicated. Some wheel of time lord of the rings some David gemmel. I liked the first two books of malazan enough to continue but it wasn’t my favourite. Now after reading the god is not willing and the ascendancy books (the ones that are out) I just started gardens of the moon again. As a whole this is amazing as individual novels some are overly complex and confusing just to be confusing. Still greatest series of all time in my opinion. Thanks for the vid keep up the good work.
A couple of thoughts.. Your points are 100% valid and I agree with them. The first book is by FAR the toughest to get through, imo, and while you may have read over 1,000 pages, reading just 12% of the entire series is simply not enough to judge it accurately. Malazan is a series that rewards you the more you read it. Yes, you are completely dropped into the middle of a story and world and have to hit the ground running, like a newborn giraffe. It can be confusing, frustrating, and unexpected. But eventually, as long as you keep moving, you are rewarded with an experience almost unparalleled in fantasy literature. It is a series that requires patience and determination. I only recommend it for hardcore fantasy readers as it can be very intimidating. I read all 10 books and don't know that I've ever felt more satisfied to have finished a series. Easily on my top 3 of all time.
Just get through to the end of Deadhouse Gates, if you don't enjoy that last 300 pages then Malazan probably isn't for you and that's ok! But I found that the last bit of Deadhouse Gates is what really sold me on this series.
I think if you're into high dark fantasy you can't go wrong Malazan. The first 3 books are very cohesive imo, it's not too much to assume that there would be significant events occuring all over a world versus a country or a continent where the quest of an individual or group in a specific region determines the fate of the world. IDK, personally didn't find it hard to follow. 😂
i'm halfway the last book. i feel i still don't understand 25% of the things that are going on. But even like that, i'm enjoying this amazing trip and already feel that i want a re read. after some things i've read, even abercrombie (whom i love) feels simple
i m gonna say a contreversial thing. malazan world building and characters and story is cool. but having your readers not knowing who is who for like 100 page at the begining of books is not good writing, i would say that the malazan series is a series full of good ideas with a meh writing ; that asks the reader to do the work.reading gardens of the moons feels like joining a D&d campagne mid session a year in and no one wants to explain to you who is who and what is happenong.
Hi 👋 this series isn’t for everyone, I’m glad you are honest with ur thoughts 💭I’m currently reading Deadhouse gate so far it’s intriguing I know this series very confusing but then it makes me want to read more of this series.. they are only my thoughts 💭 if you do start this series again Goodluck with it ... happy reading to you!! 🦋🎬🎥
I have read Gardens of the Moon and I love it so so much, for me it's 5 out of 5 stars.I would say Malazan it's not difficult but it's very complex. However I understand you,if you feel already that its not for you its ok. Reading is enjoyable
Well I've just finished Book 1 in the series and loved it. So I'll be carrying on...nice and slowly, and immersing myself in this fascinating world. The best advice I can give is don't rush....Savour the flavour, savour the depth, and savour Erikson's great writing.... 🙏
I massively mega-disagree with you about the series, but I really appreciate this video. You personality as a reader probably doesn't fit the series well. I think we're on the opposite ends of that spectrum you and I, since many of the things you mentioned that didn't work for you are things that I actually LOVE about the series. And that's why it was very enjoyable to watch this video, since you're super good at explaining what didn't work for you. This inspires me to make a video about what kind of person I am as a reader that made me totally fall in love with this series after only 30 pages, and become totally obsessed with it after 150+ pages. Thanks for a great upload!
I wasn't aware Malazan was controversial? Honestly I think its complexity is overemphasized. What really sets it apart and can make it a bit difficult to approach is the fact it is not written like most current fantasy. It really helps if you have read other genres of fiction, literary fiction and modern short stories in particular because Erikson uses a lot of techniques from outside the rather narrow confines of contemporary fantasy. Beyond that, having a community to talk to, ideally at least one person who has already read the books and can do the job of your hypothetical app, makes it easier to get through the books. But then, why read it if you don't enjoy it, no book is for everyone and reading it just for the bragging rights is not a good reason I think.
We had wars going on in ASOIAF forums about malazan years ago
Truly good points, especially the part about getting experience with short stories.
SciFi & Fantasy Read Along is a great channel for new people trying to get in Gardens of the moon.
I totally agree with you on how unique the writing is among other fantasy.
I am currently 200 pages into Gardens of the Moon and I LOVE it. I hope it stays this good.
However! I tried it via Audible THREE different times over the last couple years and could not get past the first 2-3 hours, I could not make heads or tails of anything going on plotwise. I finally bought the actual book last month and sat down to read it and it was mind blowing how much more easy to pick it up was and how GOOD it was.
This book has to be read it cannot be picked up via Audible as a first attempt imo. Even then though, some people just don't vibe with it. I know two friends/colleagues who could not get passed the first couple chapters because they could not follow the story, which made no sense to me.
@@graphthis2249 I'm just over halfway through the first book and tend not to enjoy too much magic or pointlessly complex stuff. So far it's just a straight up great book. Do lots of die hard fantasy fans dislike mystery and tension? Personal taste aside I don't see anything 'difficult' about it.
Lol Malazan fan here and I'm not triggered at all 🤣 Sorry it didn't work for you. It's important to enjoy what you read!
Thank you 😂 I might give this one a second try someday! Thanks for watching!
@@libraryofaviking It's well worth the effort, but it's time consuming and Erikson doesn't just point blank tell you everything. So it takes some effort on the reader's part, which most books don't these days. I'm on book 8 (reading publication order, including Esslemont side books, Novella's etc). And holy ... so good. I gave up after book 1 in 2014 but reread book 1 in 2019, been slowly plodding along since. No regrets. Not an effortless read though, at all. But among the best writing I've ever read, and I say that as an honours BA English graduate.
with %20 dislike ratio I think it's fair to say that a lot of fans got triggered xD
I still don't understand why people find the series confusing. I never felt confused at all. Maybe it's because I tend to just "go with the flow" as you mentioned. Granted, there is a lot of things that the reader doesn't know, but if I don't know something, I just file it away, figuring I'll find out later. Sure enough, later on, I usually find out and then I'm like "Aha!". It's like a jigsaw puzzle in some ways, I suppose.
I agree and would suggest the reason is because most people want these simple little books that have no depth and require them not to think. This is a series where you have to simultaneously retain information, connect pieces together all while following the order/path of the story. In truth it’s probably a bit to much for most.
For me, personally, it was learning all the names and titles and locations, etc etc and remembering them. Once I got started memorizing all that, it became much much easier and enjoyable. Book one i was CONSTANTLY flipping back and forth from the story, to the index lol
Yeah I just don’t worry so much if there is a passage and I’m not quite sure what’s going on. I’ll speculate a little, but the point is like you said the reader isn’t supposed to know everything all the time. It honestly makes it feel more interesting to me at least.
If you are going to tell me you wasn't confused by an azath house forming and pulling Raest in, im going to call you a liar
I find it's mostly a memory thing that leads to confusion. Forgetting stuff. There are purported to be close to or around 700 NAMED characters in the series. I have an awful memory retention so I've had to practically STUDY the books (Malazan wiki Fandom, TorRereads, google slides a guy made to review etc).. I've also in addition to reading the books, LISTENED to 6 of them, more than once while doing mundane work, to refresh my memory. I'm reading Book 8, Toll the Hounds, having read Reaper's Gale and Return of the Crimson Guard in December 2022, and The Bonehunters December 2021... huge time gap there...and finding I have to constantly look up stuff... my fault for the time gap in reading more book... I didn't even realize it was that long... I read a few of the Novellas in early 2021 too, but work was crazy busy... just didn't have time spring/summer/fall. I keep forgetting who people are from earlier books etc. Because of work and life I don't always have the luxury of time and energy to read as much as I want. I do hard labour work, so it's been 4 months since I read the last book.
Your experience is totally valid! As much as I love this series, I do not recommend it lightly to most fantasy readers. I understand the “go with the flow” advice, but I don’t think that works for most first-time readers. I did find it easiest to “flow” with it when I was focusing more on themes than plot, and I also gave up on looking up material to confirm what I read-that was too much of a chore for me. Loved the Erikson not spoon-feeding part 🤣!
If I ever give this series a second chance then I will try and do that! Thank you for watching 😄
Hello, Johan! I’m sorry to hear that Malazan didn’t work out for you, but I think you explained your experience very well. If you do end up deciding to give it another try, of course I wish you the best and would be happy to chat about the series anytime with you! ⚔️
I might return to it someday! Thank you Philip!
I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy it! It’s not for everyone, but very cool that you’re giving it a shot. You don’t need a PhD to have an opinion on books, and I appreciated hearing your views. Will be cool to see what you think if you ever decide to finish it off. Happy reading!
Your channel has been very helpful. I always go straight to your chapter recaps after I get through a chapter. Funny how I always end up realizing that I understood the story a lot more than I initially thought.
@@jasonvizcarra709 also, I learned what "chunking the deuces" meant on Iskar's channel!
Exactly yes
I agree and it’s OK for people to even view book one as a grind due to a lack of context and exhaustive references to things you know nothing about (yet). It is. But the further you get into the series the more you appreciate the stuff you didn’t previously understand AND now totally understand. I don’t think it could have been done another way IMHO. It would have made the world start too small, too confined. If people can just understand that a lack of context and a massive well developed world is just the initial cost to starting this series then they will be fine. People just need to understand that they will come to understand it all. In time and It will all make sense…eventually, then people do fine.
By the end of book one you need more. By the end of book 2 you know you are in for a lot of reading because you must have it all now that you are beginning to come to grips with the established world and the players.
The fact that the main series and the books that surround this series covering oft referenced events (like the “Night of Knives”) is written by two buddies who fully developed the lore and the world these events would be set in before embarking on the full book helps explain why they just drop you into the first one with no apologies.
Actually read them twice. It is interesting seeing these type videos as the reasons people love or hate them are the same.
But I wish you would finish Deadhouse Gates. You are introduced to perhaps the most co traversal character as well as one of the most beloved.
But either way, avoid the Wiilki at all costs.
I absolutely enjoyed deadhouse gates definitely one of my favorite books in the series and it has one of my favorite character
I always say, if you can’t get through the end of deadhouse gates and start enjoying the series it isn’t for you.
I've heard that a lot! I might give Deadhouse Gates a second chance!
That's so true I really enjoyed deadhouse gates
@@libraryofaviking Better off reading Memories of ice tbh
Deadhouse Gates is partly hard to get trough but the finale ist such a great payoff, thats justify all hard work before in this book.
Three years ago Gardens became my first fantasy book. I had no idea that fantasy could be written like this and this well. And I obviously had no other fantasy to compare it to. I was hooked and have been reading only fantasy ever since. Took me 14 months to read, while reading no other book.
My suggestion - and it's just a suggestion - the first five books can be read as stand alones, so just read them as standalones. They each have their own stories with beginnings and ends. It's only during Bonehunters, book 6, that they all start coming together and by that time you will be familiar with the major characters and world.
I also found that I don't need to know all things, just as I still don't know and will never know all things of our own world.
I tried it for the first time over a year ago and got halfway through book 7 before stopping when I realized life got in the way and I had read like 50 pages in a month. I took a break, read some familiar books to readjust, read Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy for the first time, and then decided to dive back in. I read the entire series in 3 months, finishing about a month ago, and I'm diving into the other canonical books outside of Book of the Fallen, and it's been an AMAZING experience. It knocked Wheel of Time from my number one spot which I never thought would ever be possible, but it happened. The best worldbuilding, some of the best characters, and just some of the most emotions I've EVER felt reading fantasy.
I loved the books. And the first one had me totally baffled. I figured pretty early that it's ok to be in a scene and not understand a damn thing. It's like when you're a kid and you go somewhere in your town you've never been and everything feels so alien and different that it's a thrill.
I had a very similar experience with yours starting out, but I stuck with it and Malazan became one of my favorite series. Here’s what I would recommend if you decide to continue:
1. Dedicate a good chunk of time to reading each book. I found that I struggled understanding what was going on initially if I just spent 40 pages a day reading. Once I committed to reading close to 100 pages a day or more, all of the characters and plot fell into place.
2. Read through book 3, Memories of Ice. If you’re not sold by this point, I think it’s safe to say that you won’t enjoy the rest of the series. I was sold with the series after this book.
3. Go with the flow, like Phillip Chase suggested. You won’t understand everything, or even most of what’s going on initially. Give it time though. You will start to pick up things.
Reading Malazan has made me a better reader. It truly is an amazing series. I think what gives people the most trouble is not giving the books enough time. You really need to shut things down and just focus on reading. I couldn’t do this initially with my work schedule and my reading suffered because of it. However, once I had free time to read, I dedicated a lot of my time to reading this series. My enjoyment picked up immensely.
Best of luck! No series is for everyone. I appreciate your channel and insight to fantasy!
I found a chapter per day was more than enough to follow the story. The best advice I can give to most newcomers to the series is to stop trying to understand everything. You're not "missing" anything, Erikson just hasn't spelled it out yet. It doesn't start to all tie together until the end of The Bonehunters.
"Reading Malazan has made me a better reader"
Not only that - I just watched the new Kevin Costner "Horizon" movie last week and heard people complaining about couple of characters. They were in a caravan chain (wink) and seemed aside from the main story. But knowing Malazan, I now trust that a good author/storyteller will fit them in the story in the most satisfying way. So I enjoyed they arc as what it was - mainly meeting and knowing them a bit. I can't recall this happening to me with other books.
You've earned my subscription because I completely agree with on Malazan. I couldn't understand it and I tried super hard. (I also went to school for Business Management and also abandoned the series during Deadhouse Gates and only got that far because everyone talked about how amazing it is).
Dude just read the story. Your not studying for a test. You don’t need to understand everything in one read thru. Just like real life there will always be parts you can’t comprehend just go with the flow
"I just wanted to read. I didn't want to study a book." I felt the exact same way when I tried reading Gardens of the Moon. A lot of the fans also just take for granted that a lot of the books must be re-read, but I just don't think that's for me at all. Reading fiction for me is about entertainment and excitement and it felt by reading Gardens of the Moon I was studying or that taking a studious approach would be the only successful way of getting the book and enjoying it. I don't enjoy complexity for complexity's sake, but that's just me, after all. I'm glad there are many others who enjoy it!
I agree. I was a student when I picked up the book and it felt like a textbook. Too many characters introduced too fast.
80% through the final book, The Crippled God and have to admit that half the time I have not a clue what's going on. Just want it to be over at this stage
Oh dear, I'm so sorry your experience was so unhappy. I was fortunate enough to start the series a month after 'Gardens of the Moon' was published. Thus, had no choice but to go with the flow, and jump right into it. Your research and prep work is what doomed you.
Additionally, because each book (mostly) took a year to come out, I did a full series re-read with each new publication. Made it so much easier and enjoyable. ⚔
After you've read Malazan Book of the Fallen, a lot of other fantasy series just can't measure up
Example... Wheel of Time
WOT is a longer series but feels comparatively simple and almost child like in the way it's written
Also Malazan has Dinosaurs with sword for arms
I haven't read it, so I might be wrong. But isn't Wheels of Time a children's book anyway? 🤔
@@catonkybord7950 not really a children's book
But it does seem catered towards teenage lads who are getting into reading epic fantasy
Saying that ... my wife is reading it and loving the experience 😂
🗡I’m currently reading book 8, “Toll the Hounds.” I’m not a fan of epic multi-volume fantasy. At 60 yo, long book series feel like a life sentence. However, Malazan has its hooks in me. I Google stuff all the time.
I can certainly understand why there readers who are not fans of Malazan. I’m not a fan of Faulkner, despite my efforts to read his works. Just not for me. Same with Game of Thrones. It’s all a matter of taste, not a moral or intellectual failure on the part of the reader.
I definitely don't have a phd, but I do love Malazan. Sorry, your video does slightly trigger me...you knew you were supposed to go with the flow, but stopping after every chapter for research doesn't really sound like going with the flow. Doing that with any book would sort of ruin any connection with characters and storyline in my opinion 🤷♀️⚔️
Well it's kind of hard to "go with the flow" when it means forcing yourself to continue doing something that you find tedious, aggravating, and confusing...
I think the books are fun bc they're different from the norm of every other fantasy book lol. Wasn't a disaster on my end. It threw my expectations completely aside which was something I hadn't realized I needed. And I enjoy short story writing. That said, I'm not a Malazan fanboy but I liked it!
It's an overrated verbose pile of sludge with neither good plotting nor prose nor characterization.
I like complicated world building but i am not reading a book where i have to piece things like a murder mystery.
Whilst I have loved my experience of Malazan so far, I completely understand and experienced the difficulty of not knowing whether I should know something in the story. It's hard to know whether information is being withheld or if you've just forgotten at a certain point lol. It also doesn't help with having some unreliable narrating adding further confusion haha. Fair play to you giving it a shot though! Great video as always.
I made it 6 books before giving up. I love the characters and the world, and most of the 'micro-plots' are pretty great. But the 'macro-plot' still made no sense, and was just needlessly complex.
should’ve kept going
Well it all comes together in the end so I recommend to keep reading.
I wish you had been able to make it through Deadhouse Gates! That book, just by itself, really is mindblowing. I hope you'll pick it up again someday.
You were right to not google, btw. It's very hard to avoid Malazan spoilers because things so often connect in unexpected ways.
I read all 10 books with the support of Mike’s read-along, as well as various other online resources, many of which you listed. And while these well-intentioned people did help my ‘understanding’ of the text to some extent, they did little to advance my enjoyment of the series.
There were a few entertaining aspects of the series, but preciously too few of them to offset the consistently irritating writing style of the author. The biggest obstacles I could not get through were thin character work, lack of a coherent plot, and needlessly endless obfuscation for its own sake. Many devotees have quoted such characteristics as part of the series’ charm. I don’t get it. Not my preferred bag of bananas.
Best part about reading Malazan for me was being immersed in the scenes, feeling just as confused, just as terrified, and just as devasted as the characters as they experience everything. This also rings true for my first read through of the first book. I didn't try to figure shit out nor did I try making conjectures with what is happening because I was seeing things through Paran and Crokus, who are just as confused as I am, so I felt like I experienced the book as it should be, from the eyes of an outsider.
Ya, I feel like just telling people that book one just drops you into the world with no context is enough to make people shy away. Any who are wise enough to not take this as a warning but rather a promise of spectacular world building tend to do well.
Trying to research this series before starting it is IMHO people putting way too much effort into the wrong thing. Everyone who reads this series will become an independent expert on the world and characters to some degree. They might leave you with little context in book one, but it’s so well rewarded later on that I don’t see anything but good from this approach. Beautiful series
Im at the last 3 chapters of The Crippled God. I started Malazan with Mike’s read along and was very upset when he quit. But I was ok with it because Jimmy was doing a very good job at covering the books. I was all in. It’s super dense but I worked through it and likes most of the books up to book six. I even liked Toll the hounds. But I’m to the point where I wish I was done with Malazan. I’m very interested in the world and the lore but Steve’s writing is not for me. The choices he made just to go against the grain are frustrating.
I thought Mike was just taking a break? I’m at book 6 started way late. Sad to see he didn’t make it past book 7. Makes me a little worried.
@@waldo8791 i dont think he plans on picking it up any time soon. I know a lot people love this series and maybe the ICE books are better since it’s a different writer. But I might not read mother Malazan book in a long time. I hope you have a better experience than I did but the parts that are cool In this series don’t out weigh the all convoluted nonsense and the philosophical bills hit everyone and their mom go on and on about. Whats the point of having all these cool characters if they never show up.
This is pretty much a spot-on explanation of why I had difficulty getting into these books. I’ve tried 4 or 5 times (250-350 pages in, perhaps a bit more), but it just never grabbed me. I’ll probably give it one more shot before giving up completely.
I stopped after Deadhouse Gates. I found the story to be incoherent. For me the story telling felt too fragmented and disjointed. It's not that we as readers didn't understand, it's that the story as it is told isn't understandable without apparently a very large investment in the series. It felt like incoherent hop-scotch storytelling from what I recall. Like telling a 10-book fantasy series through very small random puzzle pieces strewn about the room at random. While some readers may appreciate the mysteriousness of that method of the unknown, for me it made the series unintelligible and I couldn't become invested in the story or characters.
Malazan suffered from similar problems with its story-telling style as did The Dark Tower series by S. King for me. Both extremely popular so what do I know, but for me they were both incoherent. They weren't mysterious, they're just disorganized and disjointed like a young teenage girl telling a story of their weekend that hops around 15 times and has no direction. What am I reading/listening to? It's more of a verbal puzzle that you have to piece together over a long span of time. I think Malazan is written in a way that it is meant to appeal to very curious individual type readers. The hook is that the books don't tell a coherent story, so if you want to try to piece it together, you have to buy the next book in the series and keep going. It's like a fantasy who-done-it, except the mystery is the story, not the murder to solve. Instead of reading to discover who did the deed, you have to keep reading to learn in bits what you're actually reading the series for, what the story actually is (plot, characterization, etc.).
Not to my taste. It's more interesting for human psychology to me than it is as a fantasy series at this point.
Interesting
The 3 points that were "problematic" for you are the reasons I now want to pick up gardens of the moon.
Thank you again, your videos are really helpful, you clearly state facts and believe me, this is a breath of fresh air in the booktubers wilderness.
Oh, by the way, if what you described had a confusing effect, don't get close to Grant Morrison's Final Crisis nor Superman Beyond 😊
or … The Invisibles: 90’s classic + basis for THE MATRIX 😎
While I found similar issues with being confused. The funny part about Malazan fans saying they aren't confused is most of them when I ask them about specific plot points or character motivations they can't answer. "They understand" but the truth is they aren't fully grasping every point. I had conversations with several people about deadhouse gates and barely anyone could answer why half the things that happen in that book happen. I had to reread several parts to get a handle on it. The end result was finding a plot so convoluted and stupid I couldn't believe anyone would ever praise it. The really unfortunate thing for me is that I don't think the character work is good at all and much of the plot is driven by constant God interventions to the point where it barely feels like any of the characters have any actual power or choice in the things happening. So much of the plot feels convenient, even the parts that aren't so convoluted that they make some amount of sense. After reading about half the series I don't think I have ever read anything so overrated. At best I felt the books were average or maybe slightly above and at their worst they were below average. Never once did I see this grand fantasy epic on par with other top tier fantasy. I hate to be this way but I think people like to say they like this series because it makes them feel smart that so many people say they don't get it. I can't tell you how many times I have had conversations with Malazan fans that can barely describe their "favorite" character or give details about things in the world.
Hell I had a conversation with one huge fan about how the non human races in Malazan barely feel different than humans and the guy said he disagreed and asked for an example. I brought up Mappo who was a "Trell" and the guy was like "Mappo is human Trell are humans." Had to pull it up on the wiki to show him. So I don't think most fans even truly understand.
I’m just a casual reader of Malazan, not one of the huge fans. I read them while the second half of the series was still being published, reread only the first few a second time. Gardens of the Moon is a pretty terrible book with many of the flaws of a first novel, and IMHO it wasn’t a great idea to make entry into the series THIS hard. But the book gets better once you’ve read the second book in the same arc.
However, Philip was right: there’s only one way to read Malazan, and it’s to go with the flow and not worry about “understanding”, just absorbing what is going on, without seeking for explanations that won’t come… yet. It’s not a puzzle to decipher at first (though it will become partially that later on), it’s deeply ancient and lost knowledge you won’t understand until you meet characters who do understand them, partially. Malazan in many ways is a quest for knowledge, and it’s one for the readers too. What makes no sense whatsoever in GotM will later become simple and easy to follow. The second book is already a much better story (alas you stopped before reaching the “good part”, it’s really the last act that’s amazing and gruesomely tragic) that has all the power of very ancient epics. It’s with the third book that you start really being dragged in and start to understand a bit what is going on. After that there are certainly very puzzling and very baffling things going on now and again, the cast and world keep expanding, and some of past history in particular is steeped in ambiguities and mysteries, but the series as a whole becomes more “intricate and captivating” than “complicated”. I was able to enjoy it as a casual reader picking up the new book each year.
But GotM I only appreciated on a reread. I initially hated that book and most of the characters. But by book 3 they turn into old friends.
But if you’re ever tempted to give it another try I’d recommend going back to the essence of what Philip said by “going with the flow”. Just dive in and let it wash over you. Don’t try to do research or to understand beforehand the world. For good or bad (and with the first book I think there’s quite of bit of bad that will be turned into good only books later) being quite lost most of the time is an intentional feature of the early series. It’s like being an anthropologist discovering a new continent full of mysteries going as far back as prehistory, and having to pick up the threads one by one. It’s not a series to be too analytical with, not initially and until the rules of the game are explained, or it will drive you pretty crazy. It’s definitely not a matter of intelligence, I think it’s probably more a matter of expectations and placing the bar for yourself too high in regard to how much you should understand by book 2.
But it’s also not a series for everyone. It has put off A LOT of very experienced Fantasy readers. Not everyone enjoys an experience as confounding as Malazan can be, nor everyone finds the world building and characters nearly captivating and intriguing enough to make the massive efforts necessary to plow through the more difficult early books.
Hey man I just finished my third reading of the main 10 books and just now feel I understand maybe 90% of the entire story. That has been one of my favorite parts of this series is every time I read it I discover something I missed or didn't fully understand the last time. Also the secondary novels by esselmont really adds more detail to the whole story.
I'm definitely in the minority, but ... The Black Company > Malazan. Give it a try if you haven't. Get the TOR prints if you can. Nice and floppy.
There is no series as rewarding to (re)read as Malazan. I think its best to go with the flow. Every time you learn something new that put previous events into a different context it just feels amazing. You have so many "oh shit" moments when you read Malazan and even more when you reread it. I absolutely love it. ^^
I binged through the whole Series last year. Took Me 5 months of reading, some 5-6 hours everyday. It's quite the effort and requires dedication as it is, so doing all the additional research and reading up along with it will only make it seem harder and more of a chore than it needs to be. The First Half of every book in the Series is difficult to get into -New Locations, New Characters and setting up of Multiple Events that will play out in The Second Half. Every book is like a collection of stories and there will be ones that will interest you less. Best Thing to do is go with it, just keep reading, remembering names of locations, people and events that's it...don't try to force connections coz usually those come much deep into the series, if they do that is.! There is no overarching plot. It just isn't your typical series. Whole idea is being in another world as a series of epic events take place there and experiencing them through the different characters. I was told to take notes and do all kinda work that I felt would only complicate the experience further. Glad I didn't do any of that. I just kept reading and let Me tell You...It's super rewarding once You are able to get into it...
Just keep reading!
I find the writing in Malazan is just not enjoyable. Great world/characters but somehow nothing hits.
For anyone on the fence, watch A.P. Canavan's video called: "8-ish popular misconceptions about the Malazan Book of the Fallen - Is the series for you?" so you understand more clearly.
I would consider myself a pretty avid reader I'm about 1/3 of the way through Garden and idk what the fuck is going on, or why I should care, characters don't get time to build up, things places, armies and people are referenced without any groundwork to world building or anything honestly it's just a big shit show.
That being said, just as I was about to quit for the 3rd time I ran into Paran and Whiskey Jack, things started getting interesting enough to keep me reading. I'm somewhere around where Tattersail and the 4 high mages with one arm's army gets wrecked the story has gotten interesting at this point but sorry this writing is a giant mess.
*Edited for grammar.*
I think I've tried about three times to read this series, and each time end up giving up somewhere around book 3 and moving on to something I can actually enjoy reading.
"Almost feels wrong." No my friend, it is 100% wrong to base a review of a series by just reading 1 and a quarter books in that 26 book series.
Just review what you have read. Rename your title to Gardens of the Moon review.
⚔️I personally think you should read r. Scott Bakker's THE PRINCE of NOTHING trilogy. As always ✊🏾 Barakha 🙌🏾 Shalom 🌾🙏🏾.
After a long break from fantasy, and reading in general, Malazan is intriguing for me and is definitely on my TBR. However I feel like I need to get some more fantasy experience under my belt first before tackling this series. I'm going to try and get through the WOT first and see how I fare on a series of such grand scope, then maybe I'll give it a shot. Realistically though it's probably 2 years away for me at this point.
After reading all of Stormlight Archive I made myself choose between Malazan and WoT. I am currently on book 6 of Malazan Book of the Fallen. I am so happy I made that choice but I’m also nervous that I might not enjoy the WoT series after Malazan.
@@waldo8791 I'm actually thinking of doing WOT - SA - Malazan because i share the same feelings as you juat based on my personal tastes. However I'm sure you will still enjoy WOT, it will just be a completely different experience
If literature PhD's like it, no wonder it's bad. I stopped reading after the 1st chapter of the 1st book.
People often say they tried so hard to like this series. I'm one of them. I really tried, but I realized at some point I shouldn't have to try to like something. Nor should I have to overlook bad writing in the hope that at some point I can say this series was worth reading.
The biggest hurdle to understanding Malazan is your own expectations. The second is patience. If you keep going, it gets easier, not because the material is simpler, but because your brain gets used to processing information the way Erikson wants to feed it to you. My advice would be to take breaks between books, but don't give up.
It also helps that after The Bonehunters, the cast finally remains mostly static, so it's easier to follow what's going on in the grand scheme. The earlier books are really tough to tie together until you reach Bonehunters and it all starts to finally tie together.
I will never forget the moment I think 3000 pages or so into the series when I finally learned some key things and had a holy shit moment...From that point on, in spite of my slow pace at reading, I've just kept at it, looked up stuff online as needed when I've forgotten things. I find if you just keep at it and have patience things become clearer eventually with even just a bit of effort on the readers part. I read Return of the Crimson Guard in about a week in December. Also read Reaper's Gale. but then 4 months went by and now I'm into Toll the Hounds and a tad lost... but I'm just keeping at it, googling things on Malazan wiki fandom etc as needed.
Hello! For your info: I got PhDs in Englisch, Latin and Ancient Greek Literature - so you do not need a degree to appreciate Malazan, because I absolutely share your feelings. I have finished 7 books and I am about to give up. Let me tell you: It doesn't get better. And what you consider your shortcomings concerning the understanding of the world presented are in fact Erikson's shortcomings of being able to present the world in a comprehensible way. I don't mind diving deep into subjects - on the contrary I love challenging and demanding books, but - in my humble opinion - Malazan is so badly written, that it simply defies any reasonable approach and understanding. Not everything that is "complex" is therefore automatically good. Reading should be fun and an intellectual challenge - but for me it is not fun anymore and the challenge is no longer interesting.
Quite a few people just as qualified as you are have deemed Erikson's writing to be exceptional. Malazan is exceptionally well written, and is not meant to be an easily understood story. It's sad that you don't understand the story but at the same time think it's not "intellectually challenging".
A pity you didn't enjoy it. I still tear up when I recall the ending of Deadhouse Gates. I had no idea the series was considered controversial. Perhaps his shorter, more humorous works about Bauchelain and Korbal Broach would be more enjoyable. They're not nearly so dense and don't have a ton of different things to remember. You'll probably want to steer clear of R. Scott Bakker's books. They're a rather hefty undertaking, and unrelentingly serious.
I've been considering startingMalazan for a long while now. I still will do it, but thanks for your advice! (Sword Emoji!)
Will
I would love to hear your thoughts on it!
I can totally relate to your view. I stopped reading Deadhouse Gates because I got very confused. Recently I started it again and I have been seeing videos from Iskar commenting on the chapters and it has helped me a lot. So I finished the book today and I very much liked it. Maybe give it another try with some external help like these videos from Iskar. Cheers!
If you ever go back to the series, a couple of bits of advice. The first is, don't try to be prepared for it, because as you said, you'll never be sufficiently prepared for it. Whenever you feel like you don't understand something, just chant the mantra of "read on and find out". Other than that, I would probably recommend the Tor Reread of the Fallen as a readalong companion. It does a pretty decent job of summaries the things you can expect to have understood at various stages of each book.
⚔. Thanks for this recommendation! It's been daunting and taunting me from my shelf too!
Erickson says this himself, he follows "Show, don't Tell" writing styles. While that's becoming more common (thank-e sai) Ericson takes the concept a step farther, sometimes showing the same time sequence from different POV's, and in paying attention to each POV's reactions, the details they notice, etc.. you get a much richer picture of the characters than from other traditional devices, imo. It's tricky, and you have to read carefully, but since I trust that Erickson also 'wrote carefully', I can be relatively sure that minor, but confusing discrepancies that other readers might pass over as an error are actually plot or characterisation details. Sometimes for plot/characters that we don't pick back up until a book or two later. I vall that brilliance, and appreciated every nugget I found. I listened the first time, which is hard, so I can't wait to re-read!
This is absolutely valid and honestly if the reading experience doesn't bring you joy and it leaves you feeling like rubbish, it ain't worth it. I have a couple of experiences exactly like yours. Life is too short and we should stick with things that we're passionate about. You do you mate!
regarding your comment about wanting an app that can tell you whether you should understand something by a given point. I think this highlights one of the pitfalls we have as readers: we view understanding as a boolean. we either understand something, or we don't
but that model doesn't really apply to a text like Malazan because our comprehension of most concepts is built over time, piece by piece. and that's done very purposefully as Erikson uses these piecemeal reveals to re-contextualise his concepts. our understanding grows but it also changes.
It's not controversial at all, just written without a proper plot structure and pretentious fantasy readers gush about it, because it makes them feel superior.
Kinda similar with Bakker's Second Apocalypse series, where pseudo philosophical nonsense & grape are favoured over things like an engaging plot or characters that aren't completely despicable sociopaths.
Your first point is why I quite halfway through. The prose was good, but I didn't get the point of continuing to read something that doesn't have a plot
I feel like your title is misleading, it gives the impression that you've read the whole series while you actually only read one and a half book. I've finished book 8 and plan to continue soon, I think that your main problem was to not go with the flow. Events from the first book are still being referenced and viewed in a new light much later in the series, so it is fine to not understand everything. I hope you give this series a new chance and for example follow along wirh the Ten Very Big Books podcast
Well it's kind of hard to "go with the flow" when it
means forcing yourself to continue doing something
that you find tedious, aggravating, and confusing...
Why would you do that to yourself? Life’s too short. If you don’t enjoy reading a book, stop! No-one is holding a gun to your head!
@@adamaj74 kindly clear your clipboard...
@@adamaj74 that is for sure, totally skip a book if you don't enjoy it. However, the stress of understanding everything often might take at least me out of the experience
One of the problems I see lots of newcomers to the series have is trying to "understand" what's going on. It's a waste of mental labour. You really have to just read it, and trust that it will make sense by the end. The reality is that outside of each individual book, much of what's happening doesn't clearly tie together or even make sense until Erikson wants it to. Erikson doesn't start to spell it out for the reader until the end of The Bonehunters.
It sounds utterly bonkers, but you're right. Accept you're not going to understand a lot of it and just keep going.
Here's an idea:
Try starting with the Path to Ascendancy trilogy.
Much lighter read. Much more linear and very enjoyable.
It will be an excellent entry point.
Follow this up with Night of Knives and then go to Gardens of the Moon. That way; much of the magic, characters and plot will make more sense.
This isn't the "recommended" reading order but I think it's an ideal platform particularly for anyone struggling with the first couple of books.
I started reading Gardens of the Moon twice and gave up 2/3 of the way through both times. I finally stuck it out on a third attempt and by the end of Memories of Ice, everything slotted into place. I've read them all 3 times now and it's worth that punishing start.
Honestly I hate understanding thr complex stuff, but grow to lobe it after i begin understanding with time
Is this book like that or is it gonna confuse me till the last word
Should I read it?
The only way you can find out is by trying Gardens of the Moon! I hope you will enjoy it if you pick it up!
The only trigger I’m getting is from you stopping mid book 2. I beg of you not to. Book 2 gets so unbelievably good in the back half. If you read it and it’s not for you, fine, but please please please as it through.
I audiobooked it so I guess I kinda had to "go with the flow" the first time through. The first book was fine for me but by the end of the second I was hooked. I just started the series a second time after a few years and the first book is incredible now that I understand the world.
This was a good take on these books. I have just finished the 7th book after a bit of time off, and I found myself really tiring of Ericson's style. I sincerely feel like this book could have been 1/3 its length and would have lost nothing of real value.
The repetitive nature of the narrative really stood out in this book, with so many duplicated events or types of events.
I do love his world building and the way he weaves in geology. I love his magic, and the comic parts and the action. And always Karsa Orlong.
But I also tire of the same old pathos coming out again and again. So many characters have the same set of emotional responses that feel overwhelmingly emo and trite and limited, and sooo repetitive.
I'll probably finish the series but I need another rest.
French guy here, I read GotM twice in english and I won't lie, I was super lost the first time, yet you adjust pretty quickly after a while. You just have to go with the flow and you will understand glimpse of it eventually. Good luck!
09:22 baby needs to be told which character to like and which to dislike?
My first try at Malazan I gave up, too. I was looking for something new and read some glowing reviews so I went to go buy them but they weren't available in the US yet. I had to order them from the UK, so I ordered all of them that were available in paperback (3, I think) to make the shipping make some kind of sense. You got farther than I did; I didn't even finish Gardens of the Moon. I've read thousands of books but this was too much. Those books I paid all that money to ship across the pond just sat in a box for a few years mocking me whenever I looked in that box for my failure.
When I decided to give it another try, it just worked. A few more books had been published and I could get them on my Kindle by that point. I'd never heard of Philip Chase or his "just go with the flow" advice but that's basically what I did. I allowed myself to not hold the entire thing in my head or feel like I always knew what things meant. And it worked. I loved it (the timing worked out well, too, as Crippled God was published right around the time I was finishing Dust of Dreams).
I've read most of the Esslemont books, too. It really does reward sticking it out, but you wouldn't be the first or the last person to need a second attempt.
I just finished the whole series two weeks ago (I started because of Mike's Book Reviews too!), and I found there are a few types of confusion I went through, over the course of the series. One part is confusion because I didn't know enough yet, as a lot of things are discussed more in-depth in later books. One part was confusion because things were happening in other Malazan books that weren't part of the big ten (like a MAJOR CHARACTER DEATH that is hardly touched on in the big ten). One part was confusion because I just wasn't paying close enough attention; I've gotten used to being able to skim books because most authors hold your hand through the story, but Erikson trusts you enough not to do that. I decided around book 7 that I wanted to re-read the whole series after I finished it, and I plan to start that in another year or so after I've decompressed from the ending.
I like that you are giving your experience on the books; it's definitely not for everyone, and that's ok! I spent the first six books thinking I was going to DNF the series, and now I'm glad that I didn't, but I think it's equally valid to say it didn't capture you and move on to a different book/series. I was also helped along a LOT by the Ten Very Big Books podcast, and Iskar Jarak's youtube channel, both of which pointed out things that I missed, and reinforced things that I thought were important.
⚔ I was introduced to this Series when I think book 4 or 5 was out and I was CONSUMED by it. Something about the expansive narrative the hordes of characters each with interesting and unique quirks and personalities (to a point). Characters you actively disliked and liked. The heartbreak the joy, the horror of the series and setting, the comedic relief moments that punctuated the overall dark theme of the series was such a pull for me. And because of that, the effect it had on me as a fantasy enjoyer, I am one of those annoy people that the first book I recommend people read after dabbling in fantasy is Gardens of the Moon.
As a Malazan fan, I'm gonna be the first to say that I would NEVER recommend it for everything. Yikes. It's a lot of book, and it is super dense, with a lot of lines to follow. I'm also the type of reader who isn't possibly going to catch everything when I read dense and detailed fantasy series. For me at least, what I loved so much about it was the profound character moments. Deadhouse Gates is still one of my favorite books of all time. I go with the flow very much when reading these, and not trying to obsess over the details, but I also totally agree with your idea of a "should I know about this by now" app for this series XD
Honestly, kudos to you for sharing your opinion about this, and I think it's super cool that you read it and shared your thoughts. I totally get that it isn't for everyone. I'll be re-reading it, but that's not a commitment that everyone can or wants to make, and I don't blame them for that.
⚔
MBoTF is a magnificent read , along with all the Esslemont contributions it has literally changed not only the course of my fantasy reading but my life, I know that sounds dramatic but I now have a core group of friends from all over the world (some of who I've actually met) and we have as close if not closer bond than my physical friends.... just finished my re-read of the whole series and its safe to say as with Tolkien you pick up on new things along the second journey along with storlines having even greater resonance... saying all that, not every series is for everyone... Read what makes you happy....
First In, Last Out
I don't understand this critic about "Garen of the Moon" Difficult? How so???
It's TBR for me. I have a copy of Gardens on my bookshelf that a friend gave me. Don't know when I'll get to it as I got hundreds of others on my TBR list, about to start Eon for example, and currently reading a long history book. But someday...
Malazan fan and I've done 4 rereads of the series. My #1 fantasy. Read what you like! Although the way the vid's title is written...it doesn't really indicate you barely read 2 books.
Maybe you should find another profession.
This is better than every other series written. Of course, most people aren't gonna like it.
It was after reading Gardens that I realized there was so much flack online.. i just picked up a random book.. my mind was blown.. then suddenly realized there's a lot of naysayers. Like wtf? I'm not surprised
I've tried to read the series so many times only to give up in anger and frustration.
My experience reading the first page was something like this:
"The stains of rust seemed to map blood seas on the black, pocked surface of Mock's Vane." What does "map blood" mean? Are you trying to say it's rusty? Just say it's rusty. I don't know what a Mock's Vane is but since it's capitalized, I guess it's a proper name... don't worry about it for now.
"The winds were contrary the day columns of smoke..." The winds were contrary? Who talks like this? Is the wind blowing the wrong way or something?
"The Vane's silence announced the sudden falling-off of the sea breeze that came clambering over the ragged walls of Mock's Hold, then it creaked back into life as the hot, spark-scattered and smoke-filled breath of the Mouse Quarter reached across the city to sweep the promontory's heights." What's a promontory? Are you saying the wind stopped blowing and then started again? Dude. If you can say the wind blew, just say the wind blew. I don't want to re-read every sentence on the first page until it makes sense. I don't like poetry and I don't have time to waste trying to decipher a story I'm not even sure I'll like yet.
Didn't know about the 'overly-complex' aspect that people say about Malazan.. I'm on book 4 and it is awesome, does not feel confusing at all. It feels like playing dark souls or elden ring, you build up your information as you go.. don't panic and just go with the flow.. its really not that overwhelming.
On you saying that you can't care for the characters because they are not obviously good or bad: well why would you want a book that is so simplistic that you don't have to consider these things or think for yourself? Especially in context of war and what war brings? I get that not every book is for everyone and its ok to not enjoy everything, but I feel like this is not exactly a fair assessment of Malazan.
I was a part of a group of friends who started reading about a month ago. I'm the only one left. It's difficult, but I feel I'll be rewarded by going through with it.
I don't dislike GotM because it's complex, I dislike it because it's badly written. Deadhouse Gates was much better, but I felt little to no connection to most of the characters. I got about 100 pages into book 3 before I decided these books are not for me.
Talking about this on social media some time ago, a few people compared this author to Gene Wolfe, another writer who many consider to be 'complex'. I think the difference between them can be put thus: Wolfe tells you nothing, but gives you everything. Erikson tells you everything, but gives you nothing.
I wish I did like these books though. How great would it be to have 10,000 pages of a story you love !? If only.
I started reading this way back in high school and loved it from the get go. It definitely just drops you in media res. I think I should finally reread this series...
Malazan is terrible!
Breakaleg and Cowbell Breach is even worse!
You will be hunted forever for this betrayal high fist!
Mandy is pretty cool though!
Kallor agrees 🤣
Your video title says, "I read this...series...", but you didn't. You read the first and half of the second book. Hardly in a position to judge the entire series. Try finishing it, and you might just enjoy it!
When every comment has the ‘read more’ button.
Everyone is being way too nice here. Just call a spade a spade folks. Malazan is difficult to read...yes...we get that. Calculus is also hard and remains unpleasant until you put in the work to get it. Call it being "smart" or just "perserverance" but certainly you can't have a lazy spoon fed attitude about it going into it.
Yeah true, but the series is also pretty flawed and sometimes seems even Erikson has no idea what he’s doing, so he just hand waves problems away or obfuscates way more than most novels do lol
(Spoilers below)
For example, T’amber is suddenly possessed by a time defying goddess? Uh wait when did this happen? We don’t know? Oh never mind she’s gone now…but she resolved the entire conflict in 2 pages. Uh aren’t you gonna stay around though to help? No? Ok…
@ssj4rit I agree...Erikson's biggest fault is that he tries to manage to many storylines at once and things tend to just fall off a cliff all at once with no fanfare. That being said, there is no perfect book and the highs in this series far outweighs the lows.
Everybody certainly has such different tastes. I'd heard how "complex" Malazan was, which put me off it a while. Then I finally got around to reading Gardens of the Moon and it was my 2022 book of the year! Just Fantastic! There were a few things I didn't like as much about it (for instance this awesome buildup to this seemingly unbeatable baddy then at the end.. well..) But overall I thought it was amazing - and many (Fans of Malazan) say it's the worst in the series?! Wow that just makes me excited to read more of the series because I absolutely Loved Gardens of the Moon.
Gardens of the Moon was impenetrable to me my first read through. I forced myself to get through book 4 and by that time I decided if I started all the way over I would probably know enough about the characters world and magic system to understand what's going on. I was right. Now I believe Garden of the Moon's story is very simple, in spite of the political intricacies. Anyway, thank you for your courage in posting a less than stellar review. I like the series but I also cherish a diversity of points of view
I've not long since finished Gardens of the Moon and I'm not sure about it. It was in a word, bizarre! I kind of liked it, but I'm more baffled about certain things and looking around at everyone loving it and I'm just not seeing why.
I probably will read the second one, but it does make me worried to think that if I read it casually, I'll just miss everything and not have a clue what's happening. Having said that, the prose is truly beautiful and is a pleasure to read, even if I haven't a clue what's going on!
Part of me wants to google stuff to get a better grip of it all, but part of me wants to rise to the challenge of figuring it out
It took me until house of chains to really love this series. As a fantasy fan I hadn’t read anything overly complicated. Some wheel of time lord of the rings some David gemmel. I liked the first two books of malazan enough to continue but it wasn’t my favourite. Now after reading the god is not willing and the ascendancy books (the ones that are out) I just started gardens of the moon again. As a whole this is amazing as individual novels some are overly complex and confusing just to be confusing. Still greatest series of all time in my opinion. Thanks for the vid keep up the good work.
A couple of thoughts.. Your points are 100% valid and I agree with them. The first book is by FAR the toughest to get through, imo, and while you may have read over 1,000 pages, reading just 12% of the entire series is simply not enough to judge it accurately. Malazan is a series that rewards you the more you read it.
Yes, you are completely dropped into the middle of a story and world and have to hit the ground running, like a newborn giraffe. It can be confusing, frustrating, and unexpected. But eventually, as long as you keep moving, you are rewarded with an experience almost unparalleled in fantasy literature.
It is a series that requires patience and determination. I only recommend it for hardcore fantasy readers as it can be very intimidating. I read all 10 books and don't know that I've ever felt more satisfied to have finished a series. Easily on my top 3 of all time.
Just get through to the end of Deadhouse Gates, if you don't enjoy that last 300 pages then Malazan probably isn't for you and that's ok! But I found that the last bit of Deadhouse Gates is what really sold me on this series.
MOI was the book that cemented it for me.
I think if you're into high dark fantasy you can't go wrong Malazan. The first 3 books are very cohesive imo, it's not too much to assume that there would be significant events occuring all over a world versus a country or a continent where the quest of an individual or group in a specific region determines the fate of the world. IDK, personally didn't find it hard to follow. 😂
i'm halfway the last book. i feel i still don't understand 25% of the things that are going on. But even like that, i'm enjoying this amazing trip and already feel that i want a re read. after some things i've read, even abercrombie (whom i love) feels simple
i m gonna say a contreversial thing. malazan world building and characters and story is cool. but having your readers not knowing who is who for like 100 page at the begining of books is not good writing, i would say that the malazan series is a series full of good ideas with a meh writing ; that asks the reader to do the work.reading gardens of the moons feels like joining a D&d campagne mid session a year in and no one wants to explain to you who is who and what is happenong.
Hi 👋 this series isn’t for everyone, I’m glad you are honest with ur thoughts 💭I’m currently reading Deadhouse gate so far it’s intriguing I know this series very confusing but then it makes me want to read more of this series.. they are only my thoughts 💭 if you do start this series again Goodluck with it ... happy reading to you!! 🦋🎬🎥
Thank you for the comment! I hope you will enjoy Deadhouse Gates!
stick with harry potter bro....
I have read Gardens of the Moon and I love it so so much, for me it's 5 out of 5 stars.I would say Malazan it's not difficult but it's very complex.
However I understand you,if you feel already that its not for you its ok. Reading is enjoyable
Well I've just finished Book 1 in the series and loved it.
So I'll be carrying on...nice and slowly, and immersing myself in this fascinating world.
The best advice I can give is don't rush....Savour the flavour, savour the depth, and savour Erikson's great writing.... 🙏
I massively mega-disagree with you about the series, but I really appreciate this video. You personality as a reader probably doesn't fit the series well. I think we're on the opposite ends of that spectrum you and I, since many of the things you mentioned that didn't work for you are things that I actually LOVE about the series. And that's why it was very enjoyable to watch this video, since you're super good at explaining what didn't work for you. This inspires me to make a video about what kind of person I am as a reader that made me totally fall in love with this series after only 30 pages, and become totally obsessed with it after 150+ pages. Thanks for a great upload!