Steven Erikson here. Thank you, Andy. I've waited over twenty years for a postmodern/poststructural analytical discussion of my series. In fact, I'd just about given up hope that these elements would ever be noticed (how many students of philosophy read Epic Fantasy? Well, at least one!). I was lucky in that my initial foray into fiction writing (a Creative Writing program at the University of Victoria) was in the midst of the Magic Realist movement in literature, which as you know is explicitly deconstructed in terms of narrative reliability, while also openly challenging notions of objective reality. Magic Realism of course is deeply connected, philosophically, with Existentialism (made metamorphic beneath tyrannical polities), and all of this led, in a roundabout way, to metafiction. Alas, most metafiction struck me as too obvious, and I remembered wondering, way back then, if there was a way to make metafiction subtle. Then I began to wonder if one could make metafiction a hidden meta-narrative embracing a postmodern, poststructural story. Turns out, the answer is yes, as epitomized in the Malazan Book of the Fallen (the cipher unlocking the metafictional element to the series is found in Toll the Hounds). But for me, all of that was just me grappling with a growing uncertainty regarding almost everything, making the process of writing the series a kind of dialectic, not only between me and myself, but also between realities: ours here on Earth, and that other one being a made-up Malazan world. I would hasten to point out that so much of what happens in the series is in actual homage to traditional fantasy (especially sword & sorcery): I grew up loving dramatic clashes, battles and sword-fights, dragons and all the rest. Without all that cool stuff, how could I hope to appease my fellow fans of fantasy? So, despite the overarching, philosophical considerations I was exploring, the Malazan tale is also all about Big Scenes Where Cool Stuff Happens (lest we forget!). Anyway, my deepest appreciation, Andy. Thanks again.
I don't know if you'll read this, but if you do, I just want to thank you for the great works you've written and the considerable amount of enjoyment they've provided. Also, as a fan, of your work, and of your approach, I really appreciated the rant you posted a while back on your character work. Rake is probably my favourite character (mainly on account of how rarely you see a character like that (be it his long life, his powers or his sheer coolness) actually work and work amazingly at that), but one of your most memorable characters (other than the obviously larger than life ones or the hilarious ones) is Udinaas. His interactions with Rhulad are some of the most memorable moments I've had the pleasure to have read. Anyways, I'll stop rambling on and just say, thank you!
This got me by surprise! I thought that MBotF was kinda universally accepted as a post-modern fiction writing. That aside, one hundred years of solitude, an epitome of magical realism is still my single "most favourite" book. All those shifting generations, their struggles and the ever-increasing pacing makes me believe that it is in fact a story of a single human being. Going through different stages of her life akin to those described by psychologist Erik Erikson (pun? intended?).
@ Steve Lundin I don't know if you'll read this but your books basically ruined other fantasy series for me. They contain the poignancy of writers like Vonnegut, a sociological awareness that most fantasy writers can't seem to replicate, and a sheer level of epicness and awe that brought me to tears on more than one occasion that I haven't seen bested by anyone. @Andy Smith This is a really good video. I was terrified to see some suit-clad white guy on RUclips going into postmodernism (as I'm sure you can understand), but I was happily mistaken. You didn't go into the Frankfurt School AT ALL. You've combined Erikson's work with a really good understanding of these philosophical schools and their implications, nice one.
@Steve Lundin I don't know if you will ever read it, but still. Your writing is both evoking and provoking. I am sorry for my fanboyism, but the humanity of your characters is what kept me. Even now, year after finishing series I still go back to the scenes and characters, which is something by itself. I love that, you are not making yet another cynical sociopath your main and bring back feelings and compassion as big part of equation. Thank you, mister Erickson. Not for a Dragons and Dinosaurs with Sword in place of hands, but for making me a better person.
I still don't understand how you managed to sell this series to your publisher. Amazing. That being said, I am intrigued by your mention of a hidden metacipher in Toll the Hounds. I suppose I must read te series again!
Brilliant job with this, Andy - just brilliant! This is now one of my favorite videos not just on your channel but on RUclips. You make a solid case for Malazan being a postmodern critique of the fantasy genre, and a much needed one at that. Part of me sees storytelling- and art and music and just about any creative endeavor - as an imposition of form onto our experience of life, which is in fact chaotic and perhaps without intrinsic meaning. In other words, through stories, we put a form on experience that we can grapple with because the real thing is not something we can actually grasp. This has an important psychological function even to the degree that it helps us get through our day and feel some sense of meaning in all this chaos and suffering and loss - and, yes, beauty and joy and triumph. Naturally, like a river running in its channel, these forms we impose will follow certain patterns, and these patterns (call them archetypes or tropes) belong to us collectively. They are points of resonance that give us emotional familiarity, and so they serve an important function, even if, ultimately, they are made up. But we all need authors like Erikson to come along to remind us from time to time that these things are made up, lest we become too entrenched and rigid and stale. I think the most challenging thing about Erikson’s nonconformity to the familiar patterns is, as you say, the perspective he drops the reader into. Or, I should say perspectives. Unlike most narratives, Malazan is not character driven (though the characters are wonderful) and refuses to pretend that one character or set of characters is more important than all others. Erikson presents a truer view of an individual’s place in the universe, telling the reader who wants to identify with “the hero”, “No, you’re not that special, and you’re definitely not what the world is turning around.” I think some people get consciously or unconsciously pissed off by this because, when reading a fantasy, they expect to feel special by identifying with the protagonist, vicariously going along the journey. Anyway, this comment is getting too long, but I absolutely love what you’ve done here and will be recommending it to folks who want to understand Malazan.
Great comment, beautifully said. You said you see art as an "imposition of form onto our experience of life, which is in fact chaotic and perhaps without intrinsic meaning." There is a lot of wisdom packed into this sentence, IMO.
Well said Philip. I feel inspired to add some quotes from Sir Terry Pratchett to the narrative 😉 "The anthropologists got it wrong when they named our species Homo Sapiens ('wise man'). In any case it's an arrogant and bigheaded thing to say, wisdom being one of our least evident features. In reality we are Pan Narrans, the storytelling chimpanzee." "Stories of imagination tend to upset those without one." "If you don't turn your life into a story, you just become part of someone else's story."
I fully agree with what you said about people being disappointed because they want to identify with the hero. Personally, I take a lot of comfort in Erickson's portrayal of minor, even background characters. You still feel like they're actual people with lives and a story and value. Because in all honesty, that what most of us are. We won't grow up to be Protagonist Who Conquers Evil and Saves the World. And that's okay. We can just be the nice lady in the war camp who serves Duiker extra portions or a cog in the machine like Circle Breaker, doing his part.
This video made better job at convincing me to read Malazan than a big pile of reviews. I had almost certainly decided not to read it, but now I am almost certainly going to.
Exceptional video! This video was recommended to me by Angie the Bookaholic, and I'm so glad she did! After a recent dicussion with Angie, Bryce Shelf Centered and AP Canavan, I am committed to understanding Malazan better, as I begin to read the series, and this video is part of that process. Thanks for making it.
Thank you so much for this video. I'm not a huge fantasy fan in general but picked up Gardens of the Moon on recommendations from friends. Having just finished Deadhouse Gates, while I knew I liked it, I had reservations about continuing for eight more books. After watching your video, I have a better sense of authorial intent and where it's all going. Guess I needed the narrative you laid out to understand the author's metanarrative! My sense of wonder at the scale of what Erikson has achieved has been renewed and I can't wait to keep going.
Thank you! I'm in category 2 and now understand more about why I LOVE this series. For the first time ever I am re-reading fiction books, specifically because I enjoy *the experience* of reading Malazan content. Exactly as you say, through his amazing language I feel like I am interacting with the content. I have no philosophy background, so your explanations were very appreciated!
Came here from the Malazan subreddit. Excellent video, and a great explanation of modernism v. post modernism. So many people misrepresent the two. Drives me nuts.
DM Phil here! I randomly came across your critique, and it really opened my eyes about the Malazan series, Erikson's writing style, and the writing style of Tolkien. Very well done! Thank you for educating me.
This was extremely informative for me. I greatly appreciated this video. Having a background in science and biology this is out of my realm but very interesting!
As someone who has been dancing around this series for quite a while this is easily the best video I have seen on Malazan! Excellent work clearly communicating the ideas you wanted to get across without veering too far off course, this has definitely convinced me to move Gardens of the Moon up on my TBR!
Awesome to put this out there. I'm a PhD student who has studied a decent amount of Derrida in Philosophy and this makes me want to get back into Malazan. I stopped after book 1, The Gardens of the Moon, because it didn't quite do it for me. I was only able to skim your video as I didn't want to spoil the series for me, but it is utterly fascinating to me that the series could have this much postmodern elements! Can't wait to try the series again, and keep up the amazing work!!
This was already my favorite fantasy series, and I had understood that a lot of tropes were inverted, but this really helped me to understand the work on a deeper level. As someone who hasn't studied philosophy at all, this helped a lot
Well, thanks a lot Andy, just finished with my second read through, looking forward to catch up on other books, now you come along and make me wanna start from the beginning again, just right away.
Thank you for describing precisely why people should read the books in publication order. I bristle every time I see posts about suggested reading order. Just read them how the authors wanted you to read them.
fascinating breakdown. I've currently only read GotM and DG, and I already see most of your points in what I've read. It adds a whole new light to the series, thanks!
I remember reading the series almost 6 years ago. Gardens took me two months to finish, and then I waited a month before starting Deadhouse Gates, and I remember getting to that point in the second book where I had tears in my eyes and wanted to throw the book for the all emotional turmoil it had single handedly caused. After that I finished the entire series in about two months, then went ahead and read Esslemont’s works, read the Kharkanas Trilogy (to the second book) and even finished Path of Ascendancy. I am beyond fascinated by the universe and as Steven points out himself, the clever combo of “cool” fantasy moments with the subtle philosophical elements just makes all the books in this series a must read. I am so happy to have my own thoughts on these stories being echoed by your channel, especially in the very viscerally engaging manner the experiences are written.
Hi, I'm a college English and communications instructor from Canada, and I have to say I really like what you're doing here! I've read _The Malazan Book of the Fallen_ series (& I'm eagerly waiting for the _Kharkanas Trilogy_ to be completed). And Mr. Andy Smith, you've rightly chosen a rich and daunting body of work to address critically. I'll definitely be subscribing to and watching your channel. I love that you're not selling the readership of the series short. It's struck me that the sort of reader who stays onboard to the end of the 10 hefty ride, is probably exactly the type of reader who's keen on watching this sort of analysis. Keep this up. Also for the record,---as it seems to be a theme in the thread---the inner-voice of the teacher in me is urgently whispering, "You don't need that suit ... or, for that matter, that music!" It runs the risk of appearing to *not* recognize that it seems more like a caricature of academia...but, Andy Smith, please don't ever lose the tea!
What a great video. I’m doing the Malazan read along over at Mike’s Book Reviews (just starting book 2 now), and came to watch this video because Philip Chase and Johanna raved about it in their discussion video yesterday. This was an awesome breakdown and really helpful. Thanks, Andy!
This articulates so clearly and concisely some vague thoughts I have about Erikson and the Book of the Fallen with respect to the most common criticisms towards it. Great video Andy. It isn't just thought-provoking, it is very courageous from you to go into topics that will get the video demonetized but are important to understand "the grand scheme of malazan things". Now I want a spoilery discussion in the same track :D
I've read Malazan 3 or 4 times (the whole ordeal), but this video gave me a little more insight into what's going on and why is it written so. Great stuff, thank you so much for it :)
My education is in the life sciences and so I know nothing about philosophy. Worse, I'm a "concrete"thinker". Just wanted to say that your presentation here was brilliant enough so that even I understood it. And, it helped to broaden and to add depth to my appreciation of Erikson's work. Thank you.
Honestly the best video I've seen on my favorite series of all time! Thank you. Instant sub. These concepts always slipped my understanding but it being put together here so succinctly has helped me grasp them well. Some examples of Post-structural storytelling can be seen in Deadhouse (SPOILER) where Felisin an co are aboard the Silanda, with the headless corpses powered by sorcery and the dead captain in the cabin. We get what happens in books 4 and 5. The Captain is Binadas Sengar and he's killed by Karsa in book 4 when he(Binadas) is sent out on a mission by Rhulad in book 5. Stuff like this abounds in the series and it's a perfect example of the questioning of structure as a sequence in most stories. Although there's a sequence of events in the books things call back to other things in various ways usually out of sequence. It's just brilliant!!! I love this series.
Brilliant video! I've always felt that all the criticism on the series was misled and coming from a point of view of those wanting a "classic" fantasy series and not willing to step back and understand why Malazan didn't fit the mold. You explained it way better than I ever could.
I'm new to fantasy and have been watching a lot of videos and reviews to figure out where to get started. Malazan has been recommended by a friend and I've heard it referenced a lot, but it seemed too daunting. Your video cemented Malazan Book of the Fallen in my TBR list. Thanks for the video!
I'm currently on the third book and saw this video randomly on Reddit. Wonderful, thoughtful video, I'm not a philosophy geek, but this was very interesting nonetheless. You definitely earned my sub.
Absolutely fantastic, I'll be sending this to a few friends who I think will be very intrigued by this premise asap. Maybe I can finally get them to read it. I'd *certainly* be interested in more real-world philosophy as applied in Malazan discussions. Maybe more spoilerly videos - if there's any issue here it's that you're a bit hampered by not giving details (but that's the forever issue with Malazan, you kinda... can't discuss it at all without spoilers). also ugh, campbell and Star wars. I'll forever rant about that. You're not wrong, and that's a lot of what Star Wars is, but Lucas is smarter than he's often given credit for.
This video was great. I usually deride the Malazan books. I remember thinking of the first one "It's just a bunch of stuff happening". No rhyme or reason. I had a lot of problems with the characterization. I enjoyed the second book a lot more, but still had some strong negative opinions about it. This entire video and the authors own comments have me realizing there wasn't a book problem, there was a reader problem. I look forward to starting this again now that I feel a little more knowledgeable about the authors intent and execution. Thank you so much for posting this.
Wonderful analysis! Thankyou! I'll be sending this to my sister (whom I just handed the first two books to not yesterday, and is infinitely more well read than I am!) for a better explanation than I could ever give on what I'm getting her into.
Great explanation. I've read the series twice now and I think it's the most epic fantasy I've read so far. Throughout the books I marveled at how realistic the characters and the world around them are. Doubt, friendship and determination created purpose. Magical.
Whaaaaat, this is the contento I live for, intellectual commentary about just about anything (In this case Malazan, which is my favourite series). Awesome, keep it up.
I can’t believe this. I was in the shower after beginning my reread of GoTM (I finished it and half of DHG 3 years ago or so, but gave up due to personal stuff) and was thinking about how Malazan was like the perfect example of postmodernism and like perfectly epitomized it and look at what’s in my recommended!!!
Great video, thanks. There are a lot of youtube channels devoted to analyzing movies, but not many analyzing books (sure, there are many, many, many channels about reviews, but not analysis). You have a knack for it, and I can't wait to see more like this in the future. I am a philosopher (I know I've mentioned this before, sorry for being so ivory tower and all :P ), so I am here for this content. I think the level of analysis is perfect for what you want to accomplish, and I learned some things. Can't wait for the continued conversations!
Thanks so much for this video. It helps describe so many of the things I feel and think intuitively about Malazan, but can't seem to put into words. I've of course heard of post-structuralism and post-modernism, but never quite grasped them enough to ponder deeply and apply to my own observations, but I see now how much Malazan embodies them (I'm only up to Deadhouse Gates, but I still see it!). In fact, I'd say they are the key elements of Malazan that lead me to feeling like I'm reading a narrative about an actual world, things that actually happened in some other universe or alternate reality. It all feels so real, exactly because it is so complex and at times incomprehensible, just like our own world. Some characters are often looking around for meaning just as much as us, as readers. And, at least for me, that makes me connect with them so deeply, as opposed to other character archetypes who are "the chosen one" or who know exactly what they have to do to achieve their goals. Maybe I've been poisoned by the Cultural Marxism of post-modernist thought lol But I love it!
I've been silenty subscribed to your channel from the very beginning and was kind of hoping you would make a video like this one! Really liking philosophical bookish discussions, i hope you will do more of these.
I came here to make my outrage heard. How dare you to have only of handful of videos, just as I got addicted to them. Kind sir, it would be greatly appreciated if you made more content. I'm in a withdrawal phase, I need more. Cold turkey sucks.
@@AndySmithMN Thank you for replying. I'm usually a polite person, I don't know what happened today that I wrote the message in that style. You're doing a perfect job, and your voice is music to my ears. I might be a bit impartial, because I also think that Malazan Book of the Fallen is best fantasy series.
The one thing I wished for was the "camera" to stay on a different part of the action after "the Bonehunters". I feel like in that one case it was following the less interesting thread and the book felt incomplete to me without resolution of the other part. That said i have a ton of respect for the storytelling decision Erikson makes and his ability to think things through to their logical conclusion. The best writing in my opinion works kind of like a Rohrschach test. "who do i want to win?" "Why do i like them?" "Where do i think this noble goal went so wrong?" "How could/should the underlying conflicts be resolved?" I first noticed how entrenced tropes and expectations had become in "Game of Thrones" when Viserys gets molten gold pourd over his head and i caught myself wondering if he'd return as "the supervillain with the golden face" and then reslized how fundamentally illoghical and unserious such writing would be.
Spoilers for up through The Bonehunters (but also I've only finished reaper's gale so please don't spoil later stuff for me) If you are referring to the final action in book six where the Bonehunters are outlawed and flee from the empire, then you might be pleased to hear that Ian C. Esselmont's "Return of the Crimson Guard" follows the action within the Malazan empire after the Bonehunters leave, as opposed to the main series following the Bonehunters after their exodus. I have not personally read RotCG yet as I would rather finish the main ten books first but if you are looking for that particular thread then it does exist there.
This was wonderfully informative, thank you! I've loved the books as excellent writing and story but also for being different from the normal "Boy finds sword. Sword is magic and his finding it indicates boy will grow up to be god-king" etc. Then I read it again after reading an interview with SE with his explanation of it being a far-reaching story about compassion. When I read it again, I had slightly different eyes and saw more of this emphasis throughout the novels. Now I'm very curious to read again and look for what you are explaining in this video! My version of philosophy is sitting around a table with some friends and acquaintances, drinking too much wine and waving our arms about with raised voices, but my mind has learned some new things today. :)
It's my absolute favorite. It has everything possible that I could want in a fantasy world and story. I personally love some grimdark but this series doesn't wallow in it. It has funny parts and dark parts and parts that rip you apart. We ABSOLUTELY NEED these things in literature. Minor characters in most books are generally never given the respect they rightfully deserve. Minor characters in Malazan can sum up succinctly in three words the very struggle of life as Lull does in DHG. The seemingly insignificant could bring gods to their very knees as in RG. We are all little people in the grand story of life and we can be that character. I was also in the Navy and felt as though, although I was just a medic and unimportant, I was apart of something bigger than myself and I felt a sense of purpose and pride in what I did everyday. I could understand, on a more personal level, how the healers felt when they could and should have done more. Although, if I had been ordinance or infantry, my view would lean more towards sappers and the marines. This is a damn good book review!
Andy I have watched this a couple of times now just because it is so good. You are one of the best Malaz tubers and deserve some high praise for this. I encourage you to do more analysis of this kind (though we may need to chat about getting you hooked up with some better tea).
The part you mentioned, where that character wants to get in onbthe supposed inner circle, I just read that today. I thought it was mainly for laughs, but now that I think about it, that was an intimately epic moment.
I read this scene last week as well (on my 4th reread) and it’s honestly one of my favourites in the entire series. Can’t deconstruct why, but Andy does a great job of explaining the thought process behind it.
I remember reading a fantastic review of the series, stating that it was postmodern fantasy. It was on some random website. I can't remember what the website was but it was fascinating to read.
Absolutely loved this. I’m very interested in Philosophy. Could you please give a reading list of sort for someone who has barely scratched the surface? Thank you for the fantastic video, I look forward to your videos in the future!
I have often discussed this but the best manner in which you can present themes of empowering issues around society, rights and justice is by taking the post modern approach that the Malazan stories take. To my knowledge there are fewer writers or artists who take this approach, Hayao Miyazaki’s works come to mind and I think the Souls games from Hidetaka Miyazaki are also very good examples of a similar approach. Because this approach first shows social orders as they stand and by pure luck of which character you interact with, you are led to believe in the goodness or the evilness of the said social order. This is wonderfully highlighted in the series as our understanding of structures is made, then broken down and then re made in a different light. It’s a very subtle commentary on how we as children become so easily socialised to believing into an inherent good of the society we have been born in. That the only reason we see structure A as good and B as bad is purely because of the lottery of birth. The fact that the Malazan stories force us to take views from other vantage points makes us wrestle with contradictions of the same structures. And I love how one of the characters in the series essentially even motivates us to try and resolve these contradictions, calling consistent certainty of belief as abetting tyranny. I can write about this series forever. The fact that we are still getting books and might get more books makes me happier than I can tell you. P.S : Would love to hear your thoughts on Soul series and even Bloodborne.
That’s fair. I think similar to how the Malazan series challenge readers into being a lot more attentive and interactive with the events, the Souls games present their own challenges before you get the story. Beyond all else I admire this series for respecting the audience enough to give them something to engage with rather than something which merely entertains us on notions that we already widely believe in.
Spoilers for the whole series. Don't read if you haven't finished it. Being philosophically illiterate, while aware that Erikson is siding with some school of philosophy, I always thought that said school was nihilism. Things do seem to get more and more hopeless after all, characters more desperate and by Dust of Dreams it stops being a story that you read to take your mind off things and plunge into a fantastical world (if it ever was that for you to begin with) but a story that depresses you and makes you question the human nature. I was thus really surprised when in the Crippled God not everyone died and we got an approximately happy ending and not the futile, nothing matters kind that I expected. So thank you Andy for feeding my atrophied brain a bit and helping me understand something major about my favorite series and why, to my beffudlement, it didn't end in a depressing low.
I think Erikson is grounded in Existentialism and The Absurd in that the only sense of "meaning" that truly matters is the value we choose to place on our own actions and experiences. "Wide-eyed stupid" and "Unwitnessed" as major themes are all about recognizing that, while everything in life may be ultimately futile, what truly matters are those things that we ourselves value, like the relationships that we have with our comrades, continuing to fight in the face of overwhelming odds, and the fight to overcome our own failings and foibles. Nihilism excuses one from all of those things and allows one to give up or fuck off, instead of claiming personal responsibility for one's own values.
@@ThePaulaiLama I was looking to make sure there was an existentialism-related comment in this video and happy to find this (not at all surprised that it's a follow-up to a nihilism comment). I think this was a huge theme in the arch of Malazan as a whole - the idea of being "Unwitnessed", but that it doesn't truly matter because things in life only have meaning when we personally grant them that meaning. Also I feel like the T'lan Imass as a whole encompass this symbol of existentialism. They are an elder race that has essentially become apathetic to existence because the cycle of life was unable to end for them. The idea that they have this potential to be almost omnipresent since they can disintegrate to dust but reappear at their will represents both the consequences of the actions of those who come before us as well as our own actions since they will impact the generations that exist after us. However to harp on dialectics and contradiction, this also stands for the fact that literally one day everything we ever do or our existence as selves will disintegrate into dust and be forgotten. As an existential freak, this is why I love Malazan. The song "A Voice Born of Stone and Dust" by Caladan Brood definitely comes to mind.
Nihilism was a very huge part of modernism, so we got a somewhat happy ending because he was putting a spin on modernism, perhaps. Maybe I’m just stretching lol.
not going to lie had a whiskey and a smoke, i think i got about half of what you are talking about. But really enjoyed the vid and production and love malaz. Have a good day.
Only halfway through... But man the thought behind, quality of Narraritve, and delivery of this video is awesome! This isn't a huge subject of interest to me and I've not read Malazan. (have the first book) But I'm enjoying the dialogue and how it's making me thinking about the topics, structures, and comparisons. Great job man!
Superb video, subbed! I haven’t read Malazan, but I’m even more interested now. I’ve been enjoying “booktube” but to be honest this is the first video I’ve seen with the depth of information and analysis I’m looking for. I’m not sure if you already have a video like this, but I would LOVE to see a post-modernist critique of Brandon Sanderson, as the Cosmere seems kind of like the apotheosis of the metanarrative.
Descriptions I've heard of this series sound like an epic fantasy counterpart to The Wire- the emphasis on broader society and culture, large ensemble cast, not having clear heroes or villains, and the ultimate call for compassion theme, which I think is also at the heart of The Wire.
Yep I always pronounced it Mal-azan to and I was surprised to see Erickson himself saying Malahzen. Can't argue with the creator but I still say Mal-azan in my head.
Wow! This was so solid. I keep using that word to describe your videos, and I've only read the first two books, but you make such a strong case. For years, I think I had an overly simplistic, slippery-slope-relativism view of post-modernism (meaning almost anything can be justified). Over the years, I've come to understand it's much more nuanced than that. I especially see the value in the "critique" part. If I understand correctly, there has to be some semblance of a structure in order to be deconstructed, correct? Would you say that's true? There is an overarching theme of compassion, and he achieves this without any hand-holding or plot? Ambitious! I love post-modernism and deconstruction being explored in a fantasy series. I am personally fascinated by why a book resonates or doesn't resonate with an individual. As much as the author can try to control the narrative, individual readers bring their own background experiences and beliefs into the equation, which ultimately determines how the book is received. There is so much we can learn about ourselves and others through that process. I personally love it when an author challenges my beliefs and attachment to certain paradigms, and I suspect this will be the case with Malazan. Please let me know if I completely misunderstood anything you explained in this comment. I am so impressed with the quality of this video!
@@AndySmithMN I appreciate your response. The social justice warrior in me can definitely get behind that. I view the work as an ongoing investigation and evaluation of power centers and accountability. Not easy for those who just want simple terms, but abuse of power happens so easily otherwise (as we all well know!). So excited to read more Malazan, and I think I'll appreciate the series even more after this video!
As a Swedish fantasy author I have had my first novel Vinterkrig (A Winter's War, if I would translate my own title) compared to Gardens of the Moon. I haven't read any of the Malazan books yet, but writing on my second novel I can understand the comparison. The Swedish fantasy literature scene isn't big, but we are writing some real quality books that I hope will be translated to English some day. I really enjoyed the review, and think your explanation of Post Modernism is good. It is really a misunderstood philosophy, and it is interesting to see it showing up in fantasy literature. I have had the Malazan series on my reading list for a long time and will begin with Gardens of the Moon.
@@AndySmithMN Thank you! I hope so too as it seems like a really different series. A Swedish fantasy series, of 4 books, by the writer Erik Granström, seems similar to Malazan in many ways. Erik has a background as an animal medic and loves philosophy, which shows up in his books. Unfortunately they aren't translated into English. They are really different with some Mesopotamic influences which are really novel compared to the often medieval world of many fantasy novels. (I'm guilty of that as well).
@andysmith Jordan here I think you are incredibly intelligent man I take you seriously whether you are wearing a suit or not. I completely understand why you are doing this. You speak with such clarity as well.
Great video. Now I know I am a postmodern thinker, and I have no idea how i became like that I am no philosopher. I wonder if you (or Steve) have ever read Earthsea stories from Le Guin. I think the way she constructed the world is somehow different from the classics in fantasy, but in some philosophical level, more than in the way the people think and behave than in the way she tells the story. Those are my two favorites, and Tolkien, sadly, is like in the third place...o even dawn that if we count Sanderson, which I also like. Not that I don't like Tolkien, but I think is too simple in the way of thinking, if I have read it when I was younger. I arrived here thanks to Steves facebook, but I think I will be watching more stuff. Saludos!
Love this, with pushbacks. Id say Postmodernism and lots of lit from early 19th c (if not earlier; ie Romantic period in lit or art) are critiques of society, politics, culture, and popular imagination that centered cartesian empiric epistemology. not all lit written during this time is modernist, if modernism is the sense of obvious linear narrative, or an assumption that current mores are universal and objective. Austen and Dickens are all about interior dialog of self doubt and personal challenge of societal and classist expectations. Joyce and Elliot and Yates and yes, Tolkien, all reject the notions that science and human rationality bring perfect order from chaos (which is a problem from Plato to medieval metaphysicians, too). Yates and Tolkien are more pre-modern or medievalist; they had a mystical rather than rational worldview and preferred classic virtues, in contrast with modernism. Erikson sits in good company with LuGuin, Lacey, Jemmison, and Sapkowski in a few ways. They all jump around in plot- which itself is a structuralist device. They have chaotic good/ neutral good/ chaotic evil etc character choices (meaning the characters are morally mixed or have the choice of giving into their vices). I think Erikson’s effort (I’m not claiming authorial intent!) results in something like postmodernism: not to do something totally new (no one can actually do that; anything that seems new will, over time, produce different structures and tropes) but to critique what’s been done, tweak what we know- which is what you said. Keep going! Loved this.
Steven Erikson here. Thank you, Andy. I've waited over twenty years for a postmodern/poststructural analytical discussion of my series. In fact, I'd just about given up hope that these elements would ever be noticed (how many students of philosophy read Epic Fantasy? Well, at least one!). I was lucky in that my initial foray into fiction writing (a Creative Writing program at the University of Victoria) was in the midst of the Magic Realist movement in literature, which as you know is explicitly deconstructed in terms of narrative reliability, while also openly challenging notions of objective reality. Magic Realism of course is deeply connected, philosophically, with Existentialism (made metamorphic beneath tyrannical polities), and all of this led, in a roundabout way, to metafiction. Alas, most metafiction struck me as too obvious, and I remembered wondering, way back then, if there was a way to make metafiction subtle. Then I began to wonder if one could make metafiction a hidden meta-narrative embracing a postmodern, poststructural story. Turns out, the answer is yes, as epitomized in the Malazan Book of the Fallen (the cipher unlocking the metafictional element to the series is found in Toll the Hounds). But for me, all of that was just me grappling with a growing uncertainty regarding almost everything, making the process of writing the series a kind of dialectic, not only between me and myself, but also between realities: ours here on Earth, and that other one being a made-up Malazan world. I would hasten to point out that so much of what happens in the series is in actual homage to traditional fantasy (especially sword & sorcery): I grew up loving dramatic clashes, battles and sword-fights, dragons and all the rest. Without all that cool stuff, how could I hope to appease my fellow fans of fantasy? So, despite the overarching, philosophical considerations I was exploring, the Malazan tale is also all about Big Scenes Where Cool Stuff Happens (lest we forget!). Anyway, my deepest appreciation, Andy. Thanks again.
I don't know if you'll read this, but if you do, I just want to thank you for the great works you've written and the considerable amount of enjoyment they've provided. Also, as a fan, of your work, and of your approach, I really appreciated the rant you posted a while back on your character work. Rake is probably my favourite character (mainly on account of how rarely you see a character like that (be it his long life, his powers or his sheer coolness) actually work and work amazingly at that), but one of your most memorable characters (other than the obviously larger than life ones or the hilarious ones) is Udinaas. His interactions with Rhulad are some of the most memorable moments I've had the pleasure to have read.
Anyways, I'll stop rambling on and just say, thank you!
This got me by surprise! I thought that MBotF was kinda universally accepted as a post-modern fiction writing. That aside, one hundred years of solitude, an epitome of magical realism is still my single "most favourite" book. All those shifting generations, their struggles and the ever-increasing pacing makes me believe that it is in fact a story of a single human being. Going through different stages of her life akin to those described by psychologist Erik Erikson (pun? intended?).
@ Steve Lundin I don't know if you'll read this but your books basically ruined other fantasy series for me. They contain the poignancy of writers like Vonnegut, a sociological awareness that most fantasy writers can't seem to replicate, and a sheer level of epicness and awe that brought me to tears on more than one occasion that I haven't seen bested by anyone.
@Andy Smith This is a really good video. I was terrified to see some suit-clad white guy on RUclips going into postmodernism (as I'm sure you can understand), but I was happily mistaken. You didn't go into the Frankfurt School AT ALL. You've combined Erikson's work with a really good understanding of these philosophical schools and their implications, nice one.
@Steve Lundin I don't know if you will ever read it, but still.
Your writing is both evoking and provoking. I am sorry for my fanboyism, but the humanity of your characters is what kept me. Even now, year after finishing series I still go back to the scenes and characters, which is something by itself. I love that, you are not making yet another cynical sociopath your main and bring back feelings and compassion as big part of equation.
Thank you, mister Erickson. Not for a Dragons and Dinosaurs with Sword in place of hands, but for making me a better person.
I still don't understand how you managed to sell this series to your publisher. Amazing. That being said, I am intrigued by your mention of a hidden metacipher in Toll the Hounds. I suppose I must read te series again!
Brilliant job with this, Andy - just brilliant! This is now one of my favorite videos not just on your channel but on RUclips. You make a solid case for Malazan being a postmodern critique of the fantasy genre, and a much needed one at that. Part of me sees storytelling- and art and music and just about any creative endeavor - as an imposition of form onto our experience of life, which is in fact chaotic and perhaps without intrinsic meaning. In other words, through stories, we put a form on experience that we can grapple with because the real thing is not something we can actually grasp. This has an important psychological function even to the degree that it helps us get through our day and feel some sense of meaning in all this chaos and suffering and loss - and, yes, beauty and joy and triumph. Naturally, like a river running in its channel, these forms we impose will follow certain patterns, and these patterns (call them archetypes or tropes) belong to us collectively. They are points of resonance that give us emotional familiarity, and so they serve an important function, even if, ultimately, they are made up. But we all need authors like Erikson to come along to remind us from time to time that these things are made up, lest we become too entrenched and rigid and stale. I think the most challenging thing about Erikson’s nonconformity to the familiar patterns is, as you say, the perspective he drops the reader into. Or, I should say perspectives. Unlike most narratives, Malazan is not character driven (though the characters are wonderful) and refuses to pretend that one character or set of characters is more important than all others. Erikson presents a truer view of an individual’s place in the universe, telling the reader who wants to identify with “the hero”, “No, you’re not that special, and you’re definitely not what the world is turning around.” I think some people get consciously or unconsciously pissed off by this because, when reading a fantasy, they expect to feel special by identifying with the protagonist, vicariously going along the journey. Anyway, this comment is getting too long, but I absolutely love what you’ve done here and will be recommending it to folks who want to understand Malazan.
Great comment, beautifully said. You said you see art as an "imposition of form onto our experience of life, which is in fact chaotic and perhaps without intrinsic meaning." There is a lot of wisdom packed into this sentence, IMO.
Todd Nagel Thanks! I was pretty inspired by Andy’s video!
Well said Philip.
I feel inspired to add some quotes from Sir Terry Pratchett to the narrative 😉
"The anthropologists got it wrong when they named our species Homo Sapiens ('wise man'). In any case it's an arrogant and bigheaded thing to say, wisdom being one of our least evident features. In reality we are Pan Narrans, the storytelling chimpanzee."
"Stories of imagination tend to upset those without one."
"If you don't turn your life into a story, you just become part of someone else's story."
Rob Paul Sir Terry Pratchett was among the wiser of us storytelling chimpanzees!
I fully agree with what you said about people being disappointed because they want to identify with the hero. Personally, I take a lot of comfort in Erickson's portrayal of minor, even background characters. You still feel like they're actual people with lives and a story and value. Because in all honesty, that what most of us are. We won't grow up to be Protagonist Who Conquers Evil and Saves the World. And that's okay. We can just be the nice lady in the war camp who serves Duiker extra portions or a cog in the machine like Circle Breaker, doing his part.
This video made better job at convincing me to read Malazan than a big pile of reviews. I had almost certainly decided not to read it, but now I am almost certainly going to.
Love hearing this
Such a well made video. Malazan Book of the fallen is one of my favorite series of all time, and as a fellow Bridgeburner, subscribed!
This is such a great breakdown of postmodernism, one of the best and clearest I've seen on youtube
Exceptional video! This video was recommended to me by Angie the Bookaholic, and I'm so glad she did! After a recent dicussion with Angie, Bryce Shelf Centered and AP Canavan, I am committed to understanding Malazan better, as I begin to read the series, and this video is part of that process. Thanks for making it.
My favourite thing about COVID is nerds discovering and rediscovering this series and its epicness. Great video!
Thank you so much for this video. I'm not a huge fantasy fan in general but picked up Gardens of the Moon on recommendations from friends. Having just finished Deadhouse Gates, while I knew I liked it, I had reservations about continuing for eight more books. After watching your video, I have a better sense of authorial intent and where it's all going. Guess I needed the narrative you laid out to understand the author's metanarrative! My sense of wonder at the scale of what Erikson has achieved has been renewed and I can't wait to keep going.
Keep going is the key to Malazan!
Thank you! I'm in category 2 and now understand more about why I LOVE this series. For the first time ever I am re-reading fiction books, specifically because I enjoy *the experience* of reading Malazan content. Exactly as you say, through his amazing language I feel like I am interacting with the content. I have no philosophy background, so your explanations were very appreciated!
Came here from the Malazan subreddit. Excellent video, and a great explanation of modernism v. post modernism. So many people misrepresent the two. Drives me nuts.
DM Phil here! I randomly came across your critique, and it really opened my eyes about the Malazan series, Erikson's writing style, and the writing style of Tolkien. Very well done! Thank you for educating me.
This was a fantastic video! Really important discussion to have on this series, so thank you immensely
wow, this video single handedly made me a fan of video essays! great job my dude!! it was brilliant
This was extremely informative for me. I greatly appreciated this video. Having a background in science and biology this is out of my realm but very interesting!
As someone who has been dancing around this series for quite a while this is easily the best video I have seen on Malazan! Excellent work clearly communicating the ideas you wanted to get across without veering too far off course, this has definitely convinced me to move Gardens of the Moon up on my TBR!
Awesome to put this out there. I'm a PhD student who has studied a decent amount of Derrida in Philosophy and this makes me want to get back into Malazan. I stopped after book 1, The Gardens of the Moon, because it didn't quite do it for me.
I was only able to skim your video as I didn't want to spoil the series for me, but it is utterly fascinating to me that the series could have this much postmodern elements! Can't wait to try the series again, and keep up the amazing work!!
So how did you like MBotF on the next go round 😁
This was already my favorite fantasy series, and I had understood that a lot of tropes were inverted, but this really helped me to understand the work on a deeper level. As someone who hasn't studied philosophy at all, this helped a lot
Well, thanks a lot Andy, just finished with my second read through, looking forward to catch up on other books, now you come along and make me wanna start from the beginning again, just right away.
Thank you for describing precisely why people should read the books in publication order. I bristle every time I see posts about suggested reading order. Just read them how the authors wanted you to read them.
fascinating breakdown. I've currently only read GotM and DG, and I already see most of your points in what I've read. It adds a whole new light to the series, thanks!
What an incredibly well-done video. An excellent summary of all the things that make Malazan so incredible.
I remember reading the series almost 6 years ago. Gardens took me two months to finish, and then I waited a month before starting Deadhouse Gates, and I remember getting to that point in the second book where I had tears in my eyes and wanted to throw the book for the all emotional turmoil it had single handedly caused.
After that I finished the entire series in about two months, then went ahead and read Esslemont’s works, read the Kharkanas Trilogy (to the second book) and even finished Path of Ascendancy. I am beyond fascinated by the universe and as Steven points out himself, the clever combo of “cool” fantasy moments with the subtle philosophical elements just makes all the books in this series a must read.
I am so happy to have my own thoughts on these stories being echoed by your channel, especially in the very viscerally engaging manner the experiences are written.
Hi, I'm a college English and communications instructor from Canada, and I have to say I really like what you're doing here! I've read _The Malazan Book of the Fallen_ series (& I'm eagerly waiting for the _Kharkanas Trilogy_ to be completed). And Mr. Andy Smith, you've rightly chosen a rich and daunting body of work to address critically. I'll definitely be subscribing to and watching your channel. I love that you're not selling the readership of the series short. It's struck me that the sort of reader who stays onboard to the end of the 10 hefty ride, is probably exactly the type of reader who's keen on watching this sort of analysis. Keep this up.
Also for the record,---as it seems to be a theme in the thread---the inner-voice of the teacher in me is urgently whispering, "You don't need that suit ... or, for that matter, that music!" It runs the risk of appearing to *not* recognize that it seems more like a caricature of academia...but, Andy Smith, please don't ever lose the tea!
I'll always take more interesting videos about the Malazan world, cause there's not enough of them around. Glad Erikson shared this.
Absolutely fascinating. More excited to begin the series.
This video was way more than I thought it was going to be as a avid philosophy consumer and Malazan reader this was amazing!
LoL. I’m sorry that you needed the suit to be taken seriously. ... The tea, though, is a MUST! 🤓
Great piece of literary criticism. I like the way you apply theory to fantasy.
Interesting talk that I very much enjoyed. I am on my first read through of Gardens of The Moon, and I can definitely see what you are talking about.
What a great video. I’m doing the Malazan read along over at Mike’s Book Reviews (just starting book 2 now), and came to watch this video because Philip Chase and Johanna raved about it in their discussion video yesterday. This was an awesome breakdown and really helpful. Thanks, Andy!
This articulates so clearly and concisely some vague thoughts I have about Erikson and the Book of the Fallen with respect to the most common criticisms towards it.
Great video Andy. It isn't just thought-provoking, it is very courageous from you to go into topics that will get the video demonetized but are important to understand "the grand scheme of malazan things".
Now I want a spoilery discussion in the same track :D
I've read Malazan 3 or 4 times (the whole ordeal), but this video gave me a little more insight into what's going on and why is it written so. Great stuff, thank you so much for it :)
My education is in the life sciences and so I know nothing about philosophy. Worse, I'm a "concrete"thinker".
Just wanted to say that your presentation here was brilliant enough so that even I understood it. And, it helped to broaden and to add depth to my appreciation of Erikson's work. Thank you.
Honestly the best video I've seen on my favorite series of all time! Thank you. Instant sub.
These concepts always slipped my understanding but it being put together here so succinctly has helped me grasp them well. Some examples of Post-structural storytelling can be seen in Deadhouse (SPOILER) where Felisin an co are aboard the Silanda, with the headless corpses powered by sorcery and the dead captain in the cabin. We get what happens in books 4 and 5. The Captain is Binadas Sengar and he's killed by Karsa in book 4 when he(Binadas) is sent out on a mission by Rhulad in book 5. Stuff like this abounds in the series and it's a perfect example of the questioning of structure as a sequence in most stories. Although there's a sequence of events in the books things call back to other things in various ways usually out of sequence. It's just brilliant!!! I love this series.
I'm sold, Malazan has jumped to No.1 on the TBR list........................great video, thanks :)
Expertly presented. Even though you use no visual aids, I was hooked to your presentation for 30+ minutes on a youtube video. Well done, man.
Fantasy Novels and Board Games. I see you also are a man of great taste!
Brilliant video! I've always felt that all the criticism on the series was misled and coming from a point of view of those wanting a "classic" fantasy series and not willing to step back and understand why Malazan didn't fit the mold. You explained it way better than I ever could.
I'm new to fantasy and have been watching a lot of videos and reviews to figure out where to get started. Malazan has been recommended by a friend and I've heard it referenced a lot, but it seemed too daunting. Your video cemented Malazan Book of the Fallen in my TBR list. Thanks for the video!
I love that for the revolution image he used the same painting as Coldplay did for Viva la vida. Great album ❤
I'm currently on the third book and saw this video randomly on Reddit. Wonderful, thoughtful video, I'm not a philosophy geek, but this was very interesting nonetheless. You definitely earned my sub.
Absolutely fantastic, I'll be sending this to a few friends who I think will be very intrigued by this premise asap. Maybe I can finally get them to read it. I'd *certainly* be interested in more real-world philosophy as applied in Malazan discussions. Maybe more spoilerly videos - if there's any issue here it's that you're a bit hampered by not giving details (but that's the forever issue with Malazan, you kinda... can't discuss it at all without spoilers).
also ugh, campbell and Star wars. I'll forever rant about that. You're not wrong, and that's a lot of what Star Wars is, but Lucas is smarter than he's often given credit for.
@@AndySmithMN (holy crap Andy congrats on the accolades from SE himself - well deserved!!)
God i'm so happy someone is finally talking about this series. Toll The Hounds is probably my favorite in the series as well.
This video was great. I usually deride the Malazan books. I remember thinking of the first one "It's just a bunch of stuff happening". No rhyme or reason. I had a lot of problems with the characterization. I enjoyed the second book a lot more, but still had some strong negative opinions about it. This entire video and the authors own comments have me realizing there wasn't a book problem, there was a reader problem. I look forward to starting this again now that I feel a little more knowledgeable about the authors intent and execution. Thank you so much for posting this.
Wonderful analysis! Thankyou! I'll be sending this to my sister (whom I just handed the first two books to not yesterday, and is infinitely more well read than I am!) for a better explanation than I could ever give on what I'm getting her into.
Great explanation. I've read the series twice now and I think it's the most epic fantasy I've read so far. Throughout the books I marveled at how realistic the characters and the world around them are. Doubt, friendship and determination created purpose. Magical.
Whaaaaat, this is the contento I live for, intellectual commentary about just about anything (In this case Malazan, which is my favourite series). Awesome, keep it up.
I really loved this. Thank you! A great way to study broader concepts that might otherwise feel bland. 🙃
I can’t believe this. I was in the shower after beginning my reread of GoTM (I finished it and half of DHG 3 years ago or so, but gave up due to personal stuff) and was thinking about how Malazan was like the perfect example of postmodernism and like perfectly epitomized it and look at what’s in my recommended!!!
As someone who loves philosophy and fantasy - Malazan in particular - I would appreciate seeing many more videos like this.
Been waiting for deeper critique like this for fantasy books. You have earned a new follower.
One of the best in depth reviews I have seen so far ! Nice work ! Keep it up !
Great video, thanks. There are a lot of youtube channels devoted to analyzing movies, but not many analyzing books (sure, there are many, many, many channels about reviews, but not analysis). You have a knack for it, and I can't wait to see more like this in the future. I am a philosopher (I know I've mentioned this before, sorry for being so ivory tower and all :P ), so I am here for this content. I think the level of analysis is perfect for what you want to accomplish, and I learned some things. Can't wait for the continued conversations!
On Midnight Tides, first time through...I love this analysis!
Thanks so much for this video. It helps describe so many of the things I feel and think intuitively about Malazan, but can't seem to put into words. I've of course heard of post-structuralism and post-modernism, but never quite grasped them enough to ponder deeply and apply to my own observations, but I see now how much Malazan embodies them (I'm only up to Deadhouse Gates, but I still see it!). In fact, I'd say they are the key elements of Malazan that lead me to feeling like I'm reading a narrative about an actual world, things that actually happened in some other universe or alternate reality. It all feels so real, exactly because it is so complex and at times incomprehensible, just like our own world. Some characters are often looking around for meaning just as much as us, as readers. And, at least for me, that makes me connect with them so deeply, as opposed to other character archetypes who are "the chosen one" or who know exactly what they have to do to achieve their goals. Maybe I've been poisoned by the Cultural Marxism of post-modernist thought lol But I love it!
Excellent overview, and there's still so much more to say about Malazan.
I've been silenty subscribed to your channel from the very beginning and was kind of hoping you would make a video like this one! Really liking philosophical bookish discussions, i hope you will do more of these.
Tie, vest, coat, pocket square, and TEA.
Perfect.
Brilliant discussion. I have not read Steven Erikson. I will fix that immediately.
Thanks for this vid. Really fascinating, really educational, malazan's been on my reading list for a while, it's just moved right to the top
Thank you for this video! I only read up half of book 5 but now I am hyped to start it again.
I came here to make my outrage heard. How dare you to have only of handful of videos, just as I got addicted to them. Kind sir, it would be greatly appreciated if you made more content. I'm in a withdrawal phase, I need more. Cold turkey sucks.
@@AndySmithMN Thank you for replying. I'm usually a polite person, I don't know what happened today that I wrote the message in that style. You're doing a perfect job, and your voice is music to my ears. I might be a bit impartial, because I also think that Malazan Book of the Fallen is best fantasy series.
The one thing I wished for was the "camera" to stay on a different part of the action after "the Bonehunters". I feel like in that one case it was following the less interesting thread and the book felt incomplete to me without resolution of the other part. That said i have a ton of respect for the storytelling decision Erikson makes and his ability to think things through to their logical conclusion. The best writing in my opinion works kind of like a Rohrschach test. "who do i want to win?" "Why do i like them?" "Where do i think this noble goal went so wrong?" "How could/should the underlying conflicts be resolved?"
I first noticed how entrenced tropes and expectations had become in "Game of Thrones" when Viserys gets molten gold pourd over his head and i caught myself wondering if he'd return as "the supervillain with the golden face" and then reslized how fundamentally illoghical and unserious such writing would be.
Spoilers for up through The Bonehunters (but also I've only finished reaper's gale so please don't spoil later stuff for me)
If you are referring to the final action in book six where the Bonehunters are outlawed and flee from the empire, then you might be pleased to hear that Ian C. Esselmont's "Return of the Crimson Guard" follows the action within the Malazan empire after the Bonehunters leave, as opposed to the main series following the Bonehunters after their exodus. I have not personally read RotCG yet as I would rather finish the main ten books first but if you are looking for that particular thread then it does exist there.
Please do a video full spoilers and be more specific that would be awesome. What a video
This was wonderfully informative, thank you!
I've loved the books as excellent writing and story but also for being different from the normal "Boy finds sword. Sword is magic and his finding it indicates boy will grow up to be god-king" etc.
Then I read it again after reading an interview with SE with his explanation of it being a far-reaching story about compassion. When I read it again, I had slightly different eyes and saw more of this emphasis throughout the novels.
Now I'm very curious to read again and look for what you are explaining in this video!
My version of philosophy is sitting around a table with some friends and acquaintances, drinking too much wine and waving our arms about with raised voices, but my mind has learned some new things today. :)
A lot of what you describe are exactly the things I love about ASOIAF, so I'll have to check out Malazan.
Finally someone talks about this series
Saved to my watch later, but this is a very galaxy brain video concept 🤯
It's my absolute favorite. It has everything possible that I could want in a fantasy world and story. I personally love some grimdark but this series doesn't wallow in it. It has funny parts and dark parts and parts that rip you apart. We ABSOLUTELY NEED these things in literature.
Minor characters in most books are generally never given the respect they rightfully deserve. Minor characters in Malazan can sum up succinctly in three words the very struggle of life as Lull does in DHG. The seemingly insignificant could bring gods to their very knees as in RG. We are all little people in the grand story of life and we can be that character.
I was also in the Navy and felt as though, although I was just a medic and unimportant, I was apart of something bigger than myself and I felt a sense of purpose and pride in what I did everyday. I could understand, on a more personal level, how the healers felt when they could and should have done more. Although, if I had been ordinance or infantry, my view would lean more towards sappers and the marines.
This is a damn good book review!
Gods below, my boy. That was one helluva video. Well done! Subbed, for sure.
Andy I have watched this a couple of times now just because it is so good. You are one of the best Malaz tubers and deserve some high praise for this. I encourage you to do more analysis of this kind (though we may need to chat about getting you hooked up with some better tea).
The part you mentioned, where that character wants to get in onbthe supposed inner circle, I just read that today. I thought it was mainly for laughs, but now that I think about it, that was an intimately epic moment.
I read this scene last week as well (on my 4th reread) and it’s honestly one of my favourites in the entire series. Can’t deconstruct why, but Andy does a great job of explaining the thought process behind it.
Extremely well made video. Congratulations!
I remember reading a fantastic review of the series, stating that it was postmodern fantasy. It was on some random website. I can't remember what the website was but it was fascinating to read.
Absolutely loved this. I’m very interested in Philosophy. Could you please give a reading list of sort for someone who has barely scratched the surface? Thank you for the fantastic video, I look forward to your videos in the future!
Andy Smith thank you so much, I’ll be sure to check it out!
I have often discussed this but the best manner in which you can present themes of empowering issues around society, rights and justice is by taking the post modern approach that the Malazan stories take. To my knowledge there are fewer writers or artists who take this approach, Hayao Miyazaki’s works come to mind and I think the Souls games from Hidetaka Miyazaki are also very good examples of a similar approach.
Because this approach first shows social orders as they stand and by pure luck of which character you interact with, you are led to believe in the goodness or the evilness of the said social order. This is wonderfully highlighted in the series as our understanding of structures is made, then broken down and then re made in a different light. It’s a very subtle commentary on how we as children become so easily socialised to believing into an inherent good of the society we have been born in. That the only reason we see structure A as good and B as bad is purely because of the lottery of birth. The fact that the Malazan stories force us to take views from other vantage points makes us wrestle with contradictions of the same structures. And I love how one of the characters in the series essentially even motivates us to try and resolve these contradictions, calling consistent certainty of belief as abetting tyranny. I can write about this series forever. The fact that we are still getting books and might get more books makes me happier than I can tell you.
P.S : Would love to hear your thoughts on Soul series and even Bloodborne.
That’s fair. I think similar to how the Malazan series challenge readers into being a lot more attentive and interactive with the events, the Souls games present their own challenges before you get the story.
Beyond all else I admire this series for respecting the audience enough to give them something to engage with rather than something which merely entertains us on notions that we already widely believe in.
Great stuff Andy. I started reading Malazan when the first book came out in 1998 and I enjoyed your video muchly. :)
Great video! Looking sharp!
You used fantasy to trick me into learning some philosophy
Great vid
Spoilers for the whole series. Don't read if you haven't finished it.
Being philosophically illiterate, while aware that Erikson is siding with some school of philosophy, I always thought that said school was nihilism. Things do seem to get more and more hopeless after all, characters more desperate and by Dust of Dreams it stops being a story that you read to take your mind off things and plunge into a fantastical world (if it ever was that for you to begin with) but a story that depresses you and makes you question the human nature. I was thus really surprised when in the Crippled God not everyone died and we got an approximately happy ending and not the futile, nothing matters kind that I expected. So thank you Andy for feeding my atrophied brain a bit and helping me understand something major about my favorite series and why, to my beffudlement, it didn't end in a depressing low.
I think Erikson is grounded in Existentialism and The Absurd in that the only sense of "meaning" that truly matters is the value we choose to place on our own actions and experiences. "Wide-eyed stupid" and "Unwitnessed" as major themes are all about recognizing that, while everything in life may be ultimately futile, what truly matters are those things that we ourselves value, like the relationships that we have with our comrades, continuing to fight in the face of overwhelming odds, and the fight to overcome our own failings and foibles. Nihilism excuses one from all of those things and allows one to give up or fuck off, instead of claiming personal responsibility for one's own values.
@@ThePaulaiLama I was looking to make sure there was an existentialism-related comment in this video and happy to find this (not at all surprised that it's a follow-up to a nihilism comment). I think this was a huge theme in the arch of Malazan as a whole - the idea of being "Unwitnessed", but that it doesn't truly matter because things in life only have meaning when we personally grant them that meaning. Also I feel like the T'lan Imass as a whole encompass this symbol of existentialism. They are an elder race that has essentially become apathetic to existence because the cycle of life was unable to end for them. The idea that they have this potential to be almost omnipresent since they can disintegrate to dust but reappear at their will represents both the consequences of the actions of those who come before us as well as our own actions since they will impact the generations that exist after us. However to harp on dialectics and contradiction, this also stands for the fact that literally one day everything we ever do or our existence as selves will disintegrate into dust and be forgotten.
As an existential freak, this is why I love Malazan. The song "A Voice Born of Stone and Dust" by Caladan Brood definitely comes to mind.
Nihilism was a very huge part of modernism, so we got a somewhat happy ending because he was putting a spin on modernism, perhaps. Maybe I’m just stretching lol.
not going to lie had a whiskey and a smoke, i think i got about half of what you are talking about. But really enjoyed the vid and production and love malaz. Have a good day.
Only halfway through... But man the thought behind, quality of Narraritve, and delivery of this video is awesome! This isn't a huge subject of interest to me and I've not read Malazan. (have the first book) But I'm enjoying the dialogue and how it's making me thinking about the topics, structures, and comparisons. Great job man!
Superb video, subbed! I haven’t read Malazan, but I’m even more interested now. I’ve been enjoying “booktube” but to be honest this is the first video I’ve seen with the depth of information and analysis I’m looking for. I’m not sure if you already have a video like this, but I would LOVE to see a post-modernist critique of Brandon Sanderson, as the Cosmere seems kind of like the apotheosis of the metanarrative.
what an amazing video, I fucking loved the philosophical analysis of this series its bringing two of my favourite things together ;-; pls do more
Wow, this was a really deep dive. I do not grog philosophy but this video really helped me a lot to pur some context into the seires.
Descriptions I've heard of this series sound like an epic fantasy counterpart to The Wire- the emphasis on broader society and culture, large ensemble cast, not having clear heroes or villains, and the ultimate call for compassion theme, which I think is also at the heart of The Wire.
This video is incredible - very enlightening
"Malahzen" doesn't seem right to me. I've always read it as Mal-azan.
Same!
Same here.
Malazan phonology when.
Yep I always pronounced it Mal-azan to and I was surprised to see Erickson himself saying Malahzen. Can't argue with the creator but I still say Mal-azan in my head.
I'll never pronounce it Malahzen.
Wow! This was so solid. I keep using that word to describe your videos, and I've only read the first two books, but you make such a strong case. For years, I think I had an overly simplistic, slippery-slope-relativism view of post-modernism (meaning almost anything can be justified). Over the years, I've come to understand it's much more nuanced than that. I especially see the value in the "critique" part.
If I understand correctly, there has to be some semblance of a structure in order to be deconstructed, correct? Would you say that's true? There is an overarching theme of compassion, and he achieves this without any hand-holding or plot? Ambitious!
I love post-modernism and deconstruction being explored in a fantasy series. I am personally fascinated by why a book resonates or doesn't resonate with an individual. As much as the author can try to control the narrative, individual readers bring their own background experiences and beliefs into the equation, which ultimately determines how the book is received. There is so much we can learn about ourselves and others through that process. I personally love it when an author challenges my beliefs and attachment to certain paradigms, and I suspect this will be the case with Malazan.
Please let me know if I completely misunderstood anything you explained in this comment. I am so impressed with the quality of this video!
@@AndySmithMN I appreciate your response. The social justice warrior in me can definitely get behind that. I view the work as an ongoing investigation and evaluation of power centers and accountability. Not easy for those who just want simple terms, but abuse of power happens so easily otherwise (as we all well know!).
So excited to read more Malazan, and I think I'll appreciate the series even more after this video!
out of curiosity, what are you studying? Im not done with this video but so far the postmodern explanation is interesting
Well this was fantastic, I’ll be sure to check your channel out
As a Swedish fantasy author I have had my first novel Vinterkrig (A Winter's War, if I would translate my own title) compared to Gardens of the Moon. I haven't read any of the Malazan books yet, but writing on my second novel I can understand the comparison. The Swedish fantasy literature scene isn't big, but we are writing some real quality books that I hope will be translated to English some day.
I really enjoyed the review, and think your explanation of Post Modernism is good. It is really a misunderstood philosophy, and it is interesting to see it showing up in fantasy literature. I have had the Malazan series on my reading list for a long time and will begin with Gardens of the Moon.
@@AndySmithMN Thank you! I hope so too as it seems like a really different series. A Swedish fantasy series, of 4 books, by the writer Erik Granström, seems similar to Malazan in many ways. Erik has a background as an animal medic and loves philosophy, which shows up in his books. Unfortunately they aren't translated into English. They are really different with some Mesopotamic influences which are really novel compared to the often medieval world of many fantasy novels. (I'm guilty of that as well).
Cool Vid. I know jack shit about Philosophy and I love Malazan, so it was a great thing to see it broken down in a digestible way. Thanks!
I love this series, just finished a reread of it in August
This is a great video. First time seeing your content.
Amazing video
@andysmith Jordan here I think you are incredibly intelligent man I take you seriously whether you are wearing a suit or not. I completely understand why you are doing this. You speak with such clarity as well.
Great video dude, keep up the great work :)
Great video. Now I know I am a postmodern thinker, and I have no idea how i became like that I am no philosopher. I wonder if you (or Steve) have ever read Earthsea stories from Le Guin. I think the way she constructed the world is somehow different from the classics in fantasy, but in some philosophical level, more than in the way the people think and behave than in the way she tells the story. Those are my two favorites, and Tolkien, sadly, is like in the third place...o even dawn that if we count Sanderson, which I also like. Not that I don't like Tolkien, but I think is too simple in the way of thinking, if I have read it when I was younger. I arrived here thanks to Steves facebook, but I think I will be watching more stuff. Saludos!
He cites Ursula Le Guin as one of his influences!
@@oniflrog4487 I had no idea. That explains so much! Thanks!
Love this, with pushbacks.
Id say Postmodernism and lots of lit from early 19th c (if not earlier; ie Romantic period in lit or art) are critiques of society, politics, culture, and popular imagination that centered cartesian empiric epistemology. not all lit written during this time is modernist, if modernism is the sense of obvious linear narrative, or an assumption that current mores are universal and objective. Austen and Dickens are all about interior dialog of self doubt and personal challenge of societal and classist expectations. Joyce and Elliot and Yates and yes, Tolkien, all reject the notions that science and human rationality bring perfect order from chaos (which is a problem from Plato to medieval metaphysicians, too). Yates and Tolkien are more pre-modern or medievalist; they had a mystical rather than rational worldview and preferred classic virtues, in contrast with modernism.
Erikson sits in good company with LuGuin, Lacey, Jemmison, and Sapkowski in a few ways. They all jump around in plot- which itself is a structuralist device. They have chaotic good/ neutral good/ chaotic evil etc character choices (meaning the characters are morally mixed or have the choice of giving into their vices).
I think Erikson’s effort (I’m not claiming authorial intent!) results in something like postmodernism: not to do something totally new (no one can actually do that; anything that seems new will, over time, produce different structures and tropes) but to critique what’s been done, tweak what we know- which is what you said.
Keep going! Loved this.