this is the best video I've seen all week. I say the same thing... "bullshit. it is not too difficult or scary." I'm only just starting book 3, but you nail it here. I have no idea why people get so freaked out about the thought of reading it. Same with Book of The New Sun. They are just fiction books, not theoretical physics graduate degree textbooks... I hope people listen to you on this.
Yeah I was pretty confused the first half of gardens of the moon then once I got use to his writing it just clicked with me. Wasn't really confused at all during deadhouse gates and it was an incredible book. I'm also on book 3 haha
Cheers Brian! I do think there's also a larger conversation to be had about "consumption" rather than reading these days... And Malazan just doesn't cater to that either. It's also very fair to want to read less complex stuff.. But yeah, the difficulty level of these books is way overblown. Sure, people may get confused, but it all mostly works itself out as you go on the journey
New member to your channel. I've tried Gardens of the Moon two or three times since it first came out in late 90's. Could never get halfway through before I gave up, despite decades of reading epic AND pulp and mainstream fantasy. Literally just bought first 3 books and 10th book at a local bookstore. I'm ex-military, and love high fantasy with mercs and military -driven fantasy. I'm going in with hopefully a new mindset, thanks to RUclips channels like yours. Appreciate what you do.
Excellent video, Carlos!! I agree that the slow drip of context is what makes the series seem complex at times. One of the many themes that the series touches on is the danger of certainty. Some of us really struggle with ambiguity or not having certainty about every detail in a fantasy book. Bugg has a great quote in Midnight Tides that I’ve always thought applied to the reading experience: 'Make no assumptions. About anything. Ever. Stay mindful, my friend, and suspicious. Suspicious, but not frightened by complexity.'
Five books in? You are in for a treat. I picked up Dust of Dreams for a re-read yesterday, and I am all "what did just happen?" every time I finish a chapter. It's crazy how stuff keeps ramping up.
Red Fury recently did a video on picking up Memories of Ice after tapping out and it became a favorite read. People can get bogged down taking notes, filling out spreadsheets, etc. and making it homework. There are a lot of characters and sometimes they are in just a few scenes. Are they important to the overall story? Maybe but they have a place. You even get the pov of cow. But it does make you very happy when you pick up on a call back from three books ago.
I think the pertinent information is repeated enough to bring readers up to speed tbh... There's absolutely no need to have a grasp on every detail. This may be an influence of Sanderson on modern fantasy readership... I'm speculating there though
@@storytoobSanderson is writing for the largest audience possible, Steve wrote for an audience of one. This is definitely reflected in the prose style and how each writer passes along the context and raw information. It depends on what you like, I tend to prefer figuring things out for myself but the pendulum seems to be on the other side at the moment.
I loved the first book Gardens of Moon as a mid-twenties returning Fantasy reader, it was originally written to be pitched as a screenplay and reading it shows. It works to the larger series advantage though, it doesn't overwhelm with details and it's cast is large. The core character work with Paran, Kruppe, Old Ben, Kalam, the Assassin's subplot, Whiskeyjack, everything with Anomander Rake and the legendary Tiste Andii - pulled me in as a reader despite the many names. If you played DND you can see the roleplay/structured identity behind the magic/world. "Bosses" of sorts, Erikkson wrote it off a RP session with his friends and gives characterization to that RP world. I am loving Deadhouse Gates, excited to see Malazan reach more readers. It is worthy. oh here is a great spoiler moment from Gardens --- Ben Adaephon Delat," Pearl said plaintively, "see the last who comes. You send me to my death." "I know," Quick Ben whispered. "Flee, then. I will hold them enough to ensure your escape, no more." Quick Ben sank down past the roof. Before he passed from sight Pearl spoke again. "Ben Adaephon Delat, do you pity me?" "Yes" he replied softly, then pivoted and dropped down into darkness. ---- epic
A great video on a topic I've grown tired of talking about. Yes it has its challenges but from my experience the difficulty was overblown. If the reader trusts themselves they'll understand more than they think they will.
This was awesome to hear. I’ve been getting the itch to start the series and this video has made that itch even stronger. Really enjoying following your journey!
Beautiful video, Carlos! You're doing an excellent job of spreading the gospel of Malazan! I like how much you emphasize the fun of this series. On the point of rereading, for me rereading The Malazan Book of the Fallen along with reading the rest of the Malazan series by both authors was the greatest literature journey of my life.
Carlos, you nailed it. My experience with Malazan (in the early pages of book 4 now) is that it epic, funny, poignant and unlike anything I have read before. Your comment on context seems like the exact thing that needs to be shared with potential readers. Yes, there are times where you may be confused, but just hold on for the ride. Erickson will take you on some zigs and zags, but will get you there. Definitely will share this with any potential readers of the series.
Great pitch for Malayan that makes me really want to dive into the first book. Very intrigued by you saying that the story slowly gives you the Why even if you know what happens in a scene. Thought provoking.
Dude, what a great video! Agree with everything you said. I’m really invested at this point (4 books in) and highly anticipating the rest, including the ICE books
Okay, you have sold me, I will maybe probably perhaps definitely make Malazan a 2025 priority!! Recently I was also talking with someone else who loves this series and he mentioned that no one ever talks about how casually diverse the characters are in sexuality and body types as well, which is something that appeals to me personally a lot! Appreciate all these insights, I am excited to just dive in and trust the process. And if it's not for me, that's also fine, but at least I will have given it a fair shot instead of basing my judgements off other people's propaganda hahahah
Hey Esmay! Yes I actually forgot to mention that point in the video, thanks for reminding me. The cast and world is very diverse and it's actually quite refreshingly done. It's not highlighted or signposted and Erikson isn't screaming at you through a megaphone about how diverse his cast is. But it just is. Races, religions, skin colours, sexual orientation, body types.. there is no one dominant demographic. The power structure is kinda solely based on control of magic. It is a very cool aspect of the series that I should have mentioned!
@@storytoob With how much you gushed, I can't blame you for forgetting yet another brilliant aspect of the series, haha. Super nice to hear you reaffirm that though, makes me even more excited to dive in!
great video, Malazan has been on my list and after stormlight 5 ill probably start. i keep distracting myself while watching your video because your voice/accent reminds me of someone from a movie/series that i cant put my finger on and its driving me crazy !
My explanation of the series. Take it for what you will. It the examination of the peoples, places and cultures both within the Malazan Empire and outside it, both current and what came before. It follows those people (from the lowest to the gods), places and cultures showing their fall, in all its meanings, both physical and metaphorical, so from power, from grace, from self worth, from respect , from faith, death, even from actual heights etc, then examines those consequences, and how those affected deal with it, acceptance, grief, react against, revenge, wanting to fix it and so much more.
So, I tried reading Gardens of the Moon years ago. There were 2 things that really put me off within the first 50 pages that kinda made me stop before I barely started. The first is this tendency to end chapters with these weird little quips like 'He walked out of the room afraid of what was to come. He did not know true fear'. And then there was the laziness of naming a character WhiskeyJack. I just could not take this book seriously at the time. However, so many people I respect say they love this series. My curiosity grows
Agree with all your points. The difficulty is definitely overblown, but fantasy books in general has made readers accustomed to a particular style of structure, which many people have difficulty getting out of. I have seen lots of people who read a lot of mystery thrillers and science fiction, who hasn't read much fantasy, absolutely love these books, because they are not expecting the books to be a certain way, and comfortable in not knowing everything. The piecing together of information is actually one of the best parts for many readers. Also I personally think that Malazan is not really very booktube friendly, especially for booktubers who read a lot of books at the same time, and have a target to reach about how many books they have to finish in a month. Malazan does require some dedicated head space and introspection, and expects you to remember things and connect the dots. Which gets a bit difficult if you are juggling too many books at the same time. Of course there are many booktubers who love it, but I have seen very few actually complete the series, especially those having large channels, except for Daniel Greene. Hopefully this video will help others to start the series, including Yolanda 😂.
Yeah it's certainly interesting about how you read affecting your enjoyment of Malazan. I was one of those crime, thriller & sci-fi readers who came to fantasy novels later (apart from a few notable ones). And yes, I certainly agree with aspects of juggling too many books at once and people racing through things
If you enjoy figuring things out through context, it’ll be your favorite thing ever. Great stuff- but it’s less user friendly than most modern fantasy. Worth the effort.
Love this! I remember in an earlier video of yours that you said even the darkest grimdark you’ve read doesn’t compare to some of the crime fiction you’ve read. What would some examples of that be?
Hi Bryce! Hmm.. most recently I'd say The Power of the Dog by Don Winslow Triptych by Karin Slaughter Pop 1280 by Jim Thompson Or something like LA Confidential by Ellroy is very violent and shows the worst of the worst
I went into this series expecting to read braille and Egyptian hieroglyphics and by halfway through gardens I felt like my expectations were so vastly high in terms of difficulty I was pleasantly surprised by how much I was actually comprehending
I started Gardens of the Moon a couple of years ago. I'm not sure if I was just not in the right mood or if I'm just a dumb dumb, but the book just kinda blew over my head. I have a love/hate relationship with books that make me feel like I have to do homework to understand them, but I kinda want to give Malazan a second chance.
Definitely not too dumb! Could be mood, could be patience at that moment, could be taste.. plenty of factors! Many people also find Gardens quite chaotic and even fans of the series are generally lukewarm on it.
Like we always say-Erikson respects you as a reader. He doesn't hold your hand, he just pops you right into the action and lets you put the pieces together. I understand why some people find that frustrating, but for some of us it's PEAK
I'm surprised people find this difficult. I read the first 30 pages or so and it was fine? It wasn't like reading something dense like Pynchon or Delany or even something like Annihilation..just a regular book!
It took me three times to actually stick with Gardens of the Moon, but once you "get it", they are some of the best I have ever read, currently 200 pages left of book 10.. Such great writing..
Erikson doesn't take a definitive stance with any particular ideology, political system, belief, religion, scientific methods, etc. There is no hard and fast rule or finger wagging message about his personal beliefs he pushes through these books. The ONLY thing he is adamant about is that we need to show each other more Compassion.
Yep! Definitely... I do think he leans a little against capitalism but more so when abused and stretched beyond its base premise.. and how he brings in slavery too. Cheers!
@@storytoob I am inclined to agree with that, and I have a lot of thoughts about it concerning further books (one in particular). The one gripe I have with Erikson's plotting otherwise in an excellent series. I would be interested to hear your thoughts a couple books down the line.
Cool! I'm certainly looking forward to seeing where things go. I think my only minor gripe is character deaths never being quite final... But he does play with that in creative and different ways
I tried to start this series a few years ago. I liked the military parts but all the weird comic relief (?) characters in the city put me off and I dropped it 3/4 of the way into the first book. I would like to give it another chance as people rave about his world building so much.
Haha that's fair.. I love that gang! Kruppe and all the characters in the tavern.. it's great stuff. Also shows the balance in tone in the books. Doesn't feel jarring to me, just a natural balance between light and heavy. But I totally get if that isn't to your taste. The books have a lot of wacky humour, but also clever wink humour
@@storytoob I was listening to an audiobook and the narrator did a really hammy accent for those characters so that was probably part of the irritation but they probably grow on you. one thing about these kind of sprawling epics is it can be hard to see where everyone fits in when you first start and sometimes I am like "why am I reading about this person? I want to know what happens to ____" I remember the same type of thing when starting ASOIAF I'll give it another go
Ah of course that makes sense! And honestly that could be considered a big problem in Malazan if that style of withholding context about why a character is doing what they're doing and why we should care isn't to your taste. But I find he's quite subtle about it.. you get to know people through their actions and behaviour in a situation more than their inner thoughts (at least initially).. so it can take time to adjust. But he does hook you over time. I think a closer third person perspective and inner monologues are more conventional in fantasy in particular so if you have a large cast with Erikson's style, it can feel distant even if it isn't. George is closer, but he also has a huuuge cast of characters. It's certainly an adjustment to reading fantasy if you come from reading other genres like I did. Perspective hopping can be very jarring, especially if you're getting into a groove with a character. But Erikson does hop from group of characters between books so that will also be an adjustment. Hope you give it another go and it works for ya! But if it doesn't, it just doesn't
@@storytoob Yes It's more a positive than a negative. I mean when you're reading epic fantasy you don't really want a simple straightforward plot where everything is explained right away and B always follows predictably from A. It's something I really came to appreciate in GRRM's writing and I'm sure Erickson is the same. I did notice there are podcasts that read along with the books and avoid spoilers. That might help to just figure out the different characters and place names and why I should care about them as there is a lot thrown at you all at once
"What is Malazan about?" The best I could come up with, without spoiling anything, is: "The experiences of powerful and mundane people in a sprawling fantasy world, which are connected via broader themes." ... which really does not tell you anything at all. xD
The series is way to prone to what Daniel Dennett has called a "deepity" for my taste. You might not want to look that up. It makes the climax of the first 3 books incredibly disappointing. But maybe that's something you have to know going in. I don't know.
That's an interesting perspective! As far as I'm aware that's kind of a concept that highlights psuedo-profound thoughts right? Like saying something deep but it's not really? If my understanding is correct, I'm not actually sure I agree at all, but I can see where you're coming from. I think the series is prone to repetition with some of the exploration of themes that Erikson clearly finds interesting.
@@storytoobIt refers to when a statement can be mean two things. One incredibly deep but wrong. And another that's true but kind of trivial. That whole back and forth in the second book about "children are dying" is a good example. One one hand that could mean all of history is summarizable as kids biting the bucket. And that's profound if true. But there were 6 billion people alive when that line was written and 8 billion now. So it's wrong that's not a great summary of human history. On the other hand it could mean we're often indifferent to children dying and that's a bad thing. And that's true, but rather trivial. Though I don't even think that's as true as the author seems to think it is.
@@myself2noone I don't know if that is exactly what "children are dying" was meant to be interpreted as. It's not a statement to say "our population is falling we have to watch out!" it was to say that, the histories will tell of motivations, who was right and who was wrong, justify acts of war crimes this way and that, but all of these devastating events such as the chain of dogs can be singled down to the point that "children are dying" when children are being brutalised, left without parents, semantics and technicalities fall to the wayside and viewing acts of atrocities for what they are comes to the forefront.
That's fair! Although I wouldn't give the objective statement of "badly written" just because it isn't to your taste. The writing is incredibly skillful, and while dense and complex, I'm not sure it's fair to categorise it as bad. Worthy of criticism for being too layered or complex or unfocused? Sure!
As a potential new Malazan reader this pitch really speaks to me
😂
DO NOT TRUST THIS IMPOSTER
this is the best video I've seen all week. I say the same thing... "bullshit. it is not too difficult or scary." I'm only just starting book 3, but you nail it here. I have no idea why people get so freaked out about the thought of reading it. Same with Book of The New Sun. They are just fiction books, not theoretical physics graduate degree textbooks... I hope people listen to you on this.
Yeah I was pretty confused the first half of gardens of the moon then once I got use to his writing it just clicked with me. Wasn't really confused at all during deadhouse gates and it was an incredible book. I'm also on book 3 haha
Cheers Brian! I do think there's also a larger conversation to be had about "consumption" rather than reading these days... And Malazan just doesn't cater to that either.
It's also very fair to want to read less complex stuff.. But yeah, the difficulty level of these books is way overblown. Sure, people may get confused, but it all mostly works itself out as you go on the journey
I'm so glad that I was able to read most of these before the existence of 'social media'.
😮
On the difficulty scale, I think Finnegans Wake is probably up a lot higher than Malazan...
I'd put Joyce way above indeed!
New member to your channel. I've tried Gardens of the Moon two or three times since it first came out in late 90's. Could never get halfway through before I gave up, despite decades of reading epic AND pulp and mainstream fantasy.
Literally just bought first 3 books and 10th book at a local bookstore.
I'm ex-military, and love high fantasy with mercs and military -driven fantasy.
I'm going in with hopefully a new mindset, thanks to RUclips channels like yours.
Appreciate what you do.
Cheers for the kind words! That's exactly why we make these silly videos haha
Starting the series in December, I'll keep this video saved, but nice to see your initial thoughts that the "difficulty" is overblown
Hope you enjoy em!
Excellent video, Carlos!! I agree that the slow drip of context is what makes the series seem complex at times. One of the many themes that the series touches on is the danger of certainty. Some of us really struggle with ambiguity or not having certainty about every detail in a fantasy book. Bugg has a great quote in Midnight Tides that I’ve always thought applied to the reading experience: 'Make no assumptions. About anything. Ever. Stay mindful, my friend, and suspicious. Suspicious, but not frightened by complexity.'
Thanks Johanna!
Yesssss Bugg ❤️ Tehol and Bugg may be my new favourite duo
Five books in? You are in for a treat. I picked up Dust of Dreams for a re-read yesterday, and I am all "what did just happen?" every time I finish a chapter.
It's crazy how stuff keeps ramping up.
Red Fury recently did a video on picking up Memories of Ice after tapping out and it became a favorite read.
People can get bogged down taking notes, filling out spreadsheets, etc. and making it homework.
There are a lot of characters and sometimes they are in just a few scenes.
Are they important to the overall story? Maybe but they have a place. You even get the pov of cow.
But it does make you very happy when you pick up on a call back from three books ago.
I think the pertinent information is repeated enough to bring readers up to speed tbh... There's absolutely no need to have a grasp on every detail.
This may be an influence of Sanderson on modern fantasy readership... I'm speculating there though
@@storytoobSanderson is writing for the largest audience possible, Steve wrote for an audience of one. This is definitely reflected in the prose style and how each writer passes along the context and raw information.
It depends on what you like, I tend to prefer figuring things out for myself but the pendulum seems to be on the other side at the moment.
I loved the first book Gardens of Moon as a mid-twenties returning Fantasy reader, it was originally written to be pitched as a screenplay and reading it shows. It works to the larger series advantage though, it doesn't overwhelm with details and it's cast is large. The core character work with Paran, Kruppe, Old Ben, Kalam, the Assassin's subplot, Whiskeyjack, everything with Anomander Rake and the legendary Tiste Andii - pulled me in as a reader despite the many names.
If you played DND you can see the roleplay/structured identity behind the magic/world. "Bosses" of sorts, Erikkson wrote it off a RP session with his friends and gives characterization to that RP world.
I am loving Deadhouse Gates, excited to see Malazan reach more readers. It is worthy.
oh here is a great spoiler moment from Gardens
---
Ben Adaephon Delat," Pearl said plaintively, "see the last who comes. You send me to my death."
"I know," Quick Ben whispered.
"Flee, then. I will hold them enough to ensure your escape, no more."
Quick Ben sank down past the roof.
Before he passed from sight Pearl spoke again. "Ben Adaephon Delat, do you pity me?"
"Yes" he replied softly, then pivoted and dropped down into darkness.
----
epic
The writing is soooo good!
The best pitch to Malazan. You nailed it, Carlos. 🎉🎉🎉
Cheers Dom! My man!
@@storytoob I was gonna say "this message is approved" but I already said it before. I didnt want to be repetitive. :)
A great video on a topic I've grown tired of talking about. Yes it has its challenges but from my experience the difficulty was overblown. If the reader trusts themselves they'll understand more than they think they will.
💯
@@storytoob I restarted my re-read of Deadhouse Gates because of ye
You're welcome 😏
This was awesome to hear. I’ve been getting the itch to start the series and this video has made that itch even stronger. Really enjoying following your journey!
Hey there, thanks Sam!
Beautiful video, Carlos! You're doing an excellent job of spreading the gospel of Malazan! I like how much you emphasize the fun of this series. On the point of rereading, for me rereading The Malazan Book of the Fallen along with reading the rest of the Malazan series by both authors was the greatest literature journey of my life.
Many thanks to you Philip! You're the one who sent me on this journey!
(Along with your nemesis who shall not be named and that Jim guy)
Liked your video Carlos,I have toyed with the idea of starting Malazan but you have convinced me to give it a go.
Carlos, you nailed it. My experience with Malazan (in the early pages of book 4 now) is that it epic, funny, poignant and unlike anything I have read before. Your comment on context seems like the exact thing that needs to be shared with potential readers. Yes, there are times where you may be confused, but just hold on for the ride. Erickson will take you on some zigs and zags, but will get you there. Definitely will share this with any potential readers of the series.
Thanks Scotty!
Thank you, someone finally telling me kinda exactly what Malazon is about❣️
You're welcome!
Started malazan after wating your reviews, had put it off for years, and turned out to be exactly what iv been looking for.
I'm glad, they're brilliant books! Thanks!
Great pitch for Malayan that makes me really want to dive into the first book.
Very intrigued by you saying that the story slowly gives you the Why even if you know what happens in a scene. Thought provoking.
Dude, what a great video! Agree with everything you said. I’m really invested at this point (4 books in) and highly anticipating the rest, including the ICE books
Yooo! Cheers Usman! Looking forward to chatting House of Chains with you guys
Many thanks, really enjoyed the overview, will be starting this next year!
Yay! You're welcome! Come back and let me know if you enjoy it!
This was an excellent video! I’ve been putting this series off for years, this just moved it to the top of my reading list.
Okay, you have sold me, I will maybe probably perhaps definitely make Malazan a 2025 priority!! Recently I was also talking with someone else who loves this series and he mentioned that no one ever talks about how casually diverse the characters are in sexuality and body types as well, which is something that appeals to me personally a lot! Appreciate all these insights, I am excited to just dive in and trust the process. And if it's not for me, that's also fine, but at least I will have given it a fair shot instead of basing my judgements off other people's propaganda hahahah
Hey Esmay!
Yes I actually forgot to mention that point in the video, thanks for reminding me. The cast and world is very diverse and it's actually quite refreshingly done. It's not highlighted or signposted and Erikson isn't screaming at you through a megaphone about how diverse his cast is. But it just is.
Races, religions, skin colours, sexual orientation, body types.. there is no one dominant demographic. The power structure is kinda solely based on control of magic.
It is a very cool aspect of the series that I should have mentioned!
@@storytoob With how much you gushed, I can't blame you for forgetting yet another brilliant aspect of the series, haha. Super nice to hear you reaffirm that though, makes me even more excited to dive in!
great video, Malazan has been on my list and after stormlight 5 ill probably start. i keep distracting myself while watching your video because your voice/accent reminds me of someone from a movie/series that i cant put my finger on and its driving me crazy !
Haha it's most likely an Irish movie then!
My explanation of the series.
Take it for what you will.
It the examination of the peoples, places and cultures both within the Malazan Empire and outside it, both current and what came before. It follows those people (from the lowest to the gods), places and cultures showing their fall, in all its meanings, both physical and metaphorical, so from power, from grace, from self worth, from respect , from faith, death, even from actual heights etc, then examines those consequences, and how those affected deal with it, acceptance, grief, react against, revenge, wanting to fix it and so much more.
Beautifully put William. Cheers for that comment!
Thank you for your pitch! It was very helpful :)
So, I tried reading Gardens of the Moon years ago. There were 2 things that really put me off within the first 50 pages that kinda made me stop before I barely started. The first is this tendency to end chapters with these weird little quips like 'He walked out of the room afraid of what was to come. He did not know true fear'. And then there was the laziness of naming a character WhiskeyJack. I just could not take this book seriously at the time.
However, so many people I respect say they love this series. My curiosity grows
Love Whiskeyjack 💔
Agree with all your points. The difficulty is definitely overblown, but fantasy books in general has made readers accustomed to a particular style of structure, which many people have difficulty getting out of. I have seen lots of people who read a lot of mystery thrillers and science fiction, who hasn't read much fantasy, absolutely love these books, because they are not expecting the books to be a certain way, and comfortable in not knowing everything. The piecing together of information is actually one of the best parts for many readers.
Also I personally think that Malazan is not really very booktube friendly, especially for booktubers who read a lot of books at the same time, and have a target to reach about how many books they have to finish in a month. Malazan does require some dedicated head space and introspection, and expects you to remember things and connect the dots. Which gets a bit difficult if you are juggling too many books at the same time. Of course there are many booktubers who love it, but I have seen very few actually complete the series, especially those having large channels, except for Daniel Greene.
Hopefully this video will help others to start the series, including Yolanda 😂.
Yeah it's certainly interesting about how you read affecting your enjoyment of Malazan. I was one of those crime, thriller & sci-fi readers who came to fantasy novels later (apart from a few notable ones).
And yes, I certainly agree with aspects of juggling too many books at once and people racing through things
If you enjoy figuring things out through context, it’ll be your favorite thing ever.
Great stuff- but it’s less user friendly than most modern fantasy. Worth the effort.
Absolutely!
7 mins in and id be sold if I wasn’t already, like you, on midnight tides
Niiice!
I had no idea the Molasses lore was that deep
Love this! I remember in an earlier video of yours that you said even the darkest grimdark you’ve read doesn’t compare to some of the crime fiction you’ve read. What would some examples of that be?
Hi Bryce!
Hmm.. most recently I'd say
The Power of the Dog by Don Winslow
Triptych by Karin Slaughter
Pop 1280 by Jim Thompson
Or something like LA Confidential by Ellroy is very violent and shows the worst of the worst
I went into this series expecting to read braille and Egyptian hieroglyphics and by halfway through gardens I felt like my expectations were so vastly high in terms of difficulty I was pleasantly surprised by how much I was actually comprehending
Absolutely
@@storytoob hey I need a midnight tides update sir
Soon 😏
I agree 💯! This is by far my favorite more serious series, Ever!
I started Gardens of the Moon a couple of years ago. I'm not sure if I was just not in the right mood or if I'm just a dumb dumb, but the book just kinda blew over my head. I have a love/hate relationship with books that make me feel like I have to do homework to understand them, but I kinda want to give Malazan a second chance.
Definitely not too dumb! Could be mood, could be patience at that moment, could be taste.. plenty of factors! Many people also find Gardens quite chaotic and even fans of the series are generally lukewarm on it.
Sold
Good stuff, Carlos. Is Malazan complex? Yes. Is it unapproachable? Nope.
Is it tedious?
@@greenknightable No
😂😂😂
Like we always say-Erikson respects you as a reader. He doesn't hold your hand, he just pops you right into the action and lets you put the pieces together. I understand why some people find that frustrating, but for some of us it's PEAK
💯
Two books in and loving it. This series is basically "what if not knowing was cool?"
The mystery is one of the features of Malazan. You have to play detective and try to connect pieces of information together.
You've just described the entire mystery genre 😂 and maybe 70% of literature
I'm surprised people find this difficult. I read the first 30 pages or so and it was fine? It wasn't like reading something dense like Pynchon or Delany or even something like Annihilation..just a regular book!
I agree! it ain't Ulysses
On the bone hunters right now. And good lord this series is wild ❤
Yeeesss! I should get to it soonish
It took me three times to actually stick with Gardens of the Moon, but once you "get it", they are some of the best I have ever read, currently 200 pages left of book 10.. Such great writing..
Amazing! Looking forward to getting there myself... May yet take me a while!
Erikson doesn't take a definitive stance with any particular ideology, political system, belief, religion, scientific methods, etc. There is no hard and fast rule or finger wagging message about his personal beliefs he pushes through these books.
The ONLY thing he is adamant about is that we need to show each other more Compassion.
Yep! Definitely... I do think he leans a little against capitalism but more so when abused and stretched beyond its base premise.. and how he brings in slavery too.
Cheers!
@@storytoob I am inclined to agree with that, and I have a lot of thoughts about it concerning further books (one in particular). The one gripe I have with Erikson's plotting otherwise in an excellent series. I would be interested to hear your thoughts a couple books down the line.
Cool! I'm certainly looking forward to seeing where things go.
I think my only minor gripe is character deaths never being quite final... But he does play with that in creative and different ways
@@storytoobMost of the people that do come back are pretty fucked up really. I wonder if they do go to Hood's realm and what that looks like...
Failed,doomed humanity.
I tried to start this series a few years ago. I liked the military parts but all the weird comic relief (?) characters in the city put me off and I dropped it 3/4 of the way into the first book. I would like to give it another chance as people rave about his world building so much.
Haha that's fair.. I love that gang! Kruppe and all the characters in the tavern.. it's great stuff.
Also shows the balance in tone in the books. Doesn't feel jarring to me, just a natural balance between light and heavy.
But I totally get if that isn't to your taste. The books have a lot of wacky humour, but also clever wink humour
@@storytoob I was listening to an audiobook and the narrator did a really hammy accent for those characters so that was probably part of the irritation but they probably grow on you.
one thing about these kind of sprawling epics is it can be hard to see where everyone fits in when you first start and sometimes I am like "why am I reading about this person? I want to know what happens to ____" I remember the same type of thing when starting ASOIAF
I'll give it another go
Ah of course that makes sense! And honestly that could be considered a big problem in Malazan if that style of withholding context about why a character is doing what they're doing and why we should care isn't to your taste.
But I find he's quite subtle about it.. you get to know people through their actions and behaviour in a situation more than their inner thoughts (at least initially).. so it can take time to adjust. But he does hook you over time.
I think a closer third person perspective and inner monologues are more conventional in fantasy in particular so if you have a large cast with Erikson's style, it can feel distant even if it isn't. George is closer, but he also has a huuuge cast of characters.
It's certainly an adjustment to reading fantasy if you come from reading other genres like I did. Perspective hopping can be very jarring, especially if you're getting into a groove with a character. But Erikson does hop from group of characters between books so that will also be an adjustment.
Hope you give it another go and it works for ya! But if it doesn't, it just doesn't
@@storytoob Yes It's more a positive than a negative. I mean when you're reading epic fantasy you don't really want a simple straightforward plot where everything is explained right away and B always follows predictably from A. It's something I really came to appreciate in GRRM's writing and I'm sure Erickson is the same. I did notice there are podcasts that read along with the books and avoid spoilers. That might help to just figure out the different characters and place names and why I should care about them as there is a lot thrown at you all at once
Empathy
Great pitch 👏
At last someone who understands. Sick of people whining it’s too hard/compicated. 🙄
I think it may be a loud minority that leads to a bit of parroting of the same opinions
"What is Malazan about?"
The best I could come up with, without spoiling anything, is: "The experiences of powerful and mundane people in a sprawling fantasy world, which are connected via broader themes."
... which really does not tell you anything at all. xD
😂😂😂 sold
It starts hard on definitive answers... or isn’t? Maybe. Probably. Any variations between yes and no. Chat GPT is frozen. 😂
How far from finishing MT are you? I’m excited for the video on that
Edit: My question was answered around 2 minutes later 😂
😂😂 Cheers!
Saving this 😂
The series is way to prone to what Daniel Dennett has called a "deepity" for my taste. You might not want to look that up. It makes the climax of the first 3 books incredibly disappointing. But maybe that's something you have to know going in. I don't know.
That's an interesting perspective! As far as I'm aware that's kind of a concept that highlights psuedo-profound thoughts right? Like saying something deep but it's not really?
If my understanding is correct, I'm not actually sure I agree at all, but I can see where you're coming from. I think the series is prone to repetition with some of the exploration of themes that Erikson clearly finds interesting.
@@storytoobIt refers to when a statement can be mean two things. One incredibly deep but wrong. And another that's true but kind of trivial.
That whole back and forth in the second book about "children are dying" is a good example. One one hand that could mean all of history is summarizable as kids biting the bucket. And that's profound if true. But there were 6 billion people alive when that line was written and 8 billion now. So it's wrong that's not a great summary of human history. On the other hand it could mean we're often indifferent to children dying and that's a bad thing. And that's true, but rather trivial. Though I don't even think that's as true as the author seems to think it is.
@@myself2noone I don't know if that is exactly what "children are dying" was meant to be interpreted as. It's not a statement to say "our population is falling we have to watch out!" it was to say that, the histories will tell of motivations, who was right and who was wrong, justify acts of war crimes this way and that, but all of these devastating events such as the chain of dogs can be singled down to the point that "children are dying" when children are being brutalised, left without parents, semantics and technicalities fall to the wayside and viewing acts of atrocities for what they are comes to the forefront.
2 books in and I tapped out. Malazan is a good story badly written.
That's fair! Although I wouldn't give the objective statement of "badly written" just because it isn't to your taste. The writing is incredibly skillful, and while dense and complex, I'm not sure it's fair to categorise it as bad. Worthy of criticism for being too layered or complex or unfocused? Sure!