I was reading this passage yesterday, almost at the same time this was posted. Jacob did not "win", as in overpowering the Angel, but he passed the test. When the Angel touches his hip, it's a clear sign he could have destroyed Jacob from the very beginning, but that was not the intention of the fight. It was to test Jacob's heart, and I think that's something we have to take as a lesson. Not letting go of God, whether the relationship we have with him is smooth or conflictive, we cannot let go of his blessing and, more importantly, His presence in our lives.
Not sure if you meant to, but you basically paraphrased Deuteronomy 8:2. This, in my opinion, is one of the most fundamental and worldview building passages of the bible. THANK YOU for your insight. I had not made this connection before. Be blessed abundantly!
That episode in the Bible always stuck with me. Jacob is trembling at the idea of meeting his brother knowing he and his family might perish, and he prays alone at night, hoping God will comfort and strengthen him. What he gets is a mysterious night long fight from which he emerges limping. The Angel initiates the fight and none of them wins for a long time. The conclusion is the strike to Jacob's side. Jacob doesn't want to let him go, he wants to know his name, and the Angel responds: why do you ask my name? (As in: don't you know me? In the Bible God sends his Angels to speak for Him as Himself) And then Jacob gets a new name. "Because you have wrestled with God, and you won." Jacob will be a patriarch whose memory is immortal. His 12 kids will start families that will become huge tribes and the whole people of Israel. His son Joseph will be king of Egypt and save his family and the country from famine. And Jacob was just a good, simple guy with a young family trying to get by at that point. Running from his own brother after living in exile, working for his relative, for years. He fears his brother will skin him and God... just sends him one more fight. And the next day his brother is happy to see him and all is well. Sometimes I feel God is like a good dad that if I fall, will pat me and comfort me but won't share my panic and pessimism. On the contrary he'll challenge me to stand up again. "You can do this. Come on." I see that in Jesus's Passion. Jacob praying for his life, alone at night, always reminded me of Jesus praying in the garden before they came to arrest Him. Just the thought of what was about to happen was unspeakable fear for both. They are both challenged to keep on fighting. Jesus also emerges from his prayer place somewhat limping, like someone who has been bleeding, but He will walk straight towards the people who are coming for Him along with the "brother", one of his best friends, Judas, who will put Him to death. Jesus will die, but just three days later His victory shows. With Him, life goes on, life goes up, life comes back, life restarts and renews. Life has a new face and a new name. All this I felt it come true in me, in my deepest hellish experiences, and He knows I owe him my will to live and my hope and sanity, praise be to Him forever. Thank you Dr. Peterson for what you do.
Thank you for your testimony! You made me cry a little with the line "Just one more fight" because i going trought somenthing almost like that right now in my life. I've read the story of Jacob and Gospels of Jesus. But Reading trought your perspective mande learn and relearn someting new! Thank you once again and may God bless you and your family!
It's almost impossible to imagine of who you want to be from the start point. Because, in a year things may change so drastically, that only echoes may remain of your original image of yourself. It depends on so many factors, that it's so naive to believe that you'll be able to nail it - who you want to be, and what you really want from the start point. For example: i thought i knew who i wanted to be, but then the war in my country, in Ukraine broke out, and suddenly, in the morning on 24th i realised, that my image of who i wanted to be turned into an illusion.....
I'm praying for Dr. Peterson I hope one day he comes into full salvation. Head knowledge is just that head knowledge and you can miss heaven by 18 inches if you don't let head knowledge become heart transformation....God Bless!!!
Salvation means committing your entire life to, not just saying you believe it and I love how he is bringing that message back to our Protestant brothers and sisters. Saying it is missing the entire point. Even believing it is missing the entire point. It’s openining your heart accepting the Holy Spirit and we’re not done there but we’re called to give it away so we can receive more, and then give that away and receive more it’s a relationship you put every once of your being into. Not many Christians get it
I've had extreme nightmares for most of my life. But after hearing this, I'm much more grateful for those wrestlings and opportunities to try to win, even when I fall.
Get a cat. When he responds on the night I realize those men are no longer in my life I am safe and my prayers to God are thanks not panicked pleas for safety.
I really, really like this idea. That the chosen people are not defined by place, or ethnicity, or *mindless belief,* but by struggling with moral concepts. It's like you said about, if malevolence is evil, then the opposite is play. Wrestling is the play version of fighting. It's pretty close to outright war, but the point of wrestling is to have a fight and neither side actually dies. It's to match skill and strength in a way that makes both sides better. So this means, Jordan, that God wants a partner. It means *He learns and gets better by struggling with US.*
I love how he does that. You can tell he's so careful about what he says and he doesn't mind those pauses so he can try to find the absolute best way to communicate what he wants to say.
I wouldn’t say he was victorious, he simply didn’t lose. I think the very fact that God could simply touch him and defeat him (and he did that’s how the hip injury came about) shows just how amazing it is that God was willing to fight Jacob on Jacob’s terms rather than destroying him outright. P.S. In English bibles in the old testament there are specific references to a specific angel whose name is always written with a capital letter A if it says “Angel”. Scholars believe this to be Jesus, and that’s why the Angel could tell Jacob he fought with God. Not ambiguious at all really. Jacob fought Jesus.
Yes. I was surprised Jordan didn't mention that. But then, an in-depth analysis of that story wasn't really his point. This made me even more eager to read his book.
You say its not those who believe but those who wrestle that are chosen. Good point. But consider the reason for the wrestling. The wrestling was not AGAINST God, but rather FOR a blessing FROM God. This key point makes a significant difference, BECAUSE one cannot wrestle with God FOR a blessing FROM Him if one does not first BELIEVE in Him.
Maybe wrestling does not mean not believing in God, but it may represent the typical wrestle we believers have when we feel our fears are overwhelming and our prayers are not heard. We tend to create trouble for ourselves with our behaviors just like Jacob and when the fan hits the roof we fear the worst, then we run to God with desperation wanting him to give us a right now solution, we struggle internally, and we even doubt our faith if he does not respond quickly, are we devote enough, is he punishing me, am I a bad believer and when all that is exhausted we make up stories of why would He not want to help us, our minds go nuts trying to fill the gaps of uncertainty because we have no inner peace, all we see and hear is what our mind shows us. That for me signifies the wrestle. The hip wound is what usually happens to us when God takes us to our limit to break our paranoid mental state and allow us to enter a state of faith and peace, let go, and let God.
@@MariaDeLeonart I agree. You make a lot of good points. Wresting does not equate believing. But we have to first have a basis of belief before we can wrestle.
Wrestling - not rebellion nor rejection. You might call it negotiating, as Moses did regarding the people of Israel, and Abraham, regarding the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. Contending, but never contemptuous. Wrestling is a rich word, full of meaning.
In order to “wrestle” one must be in very close proximity to the one in which you are wrestling with. It’s about motive, and it’s always about motive. Jacob’s motive was to establish his identity in the Lord. Who he was, wrestled with who he longed to be. A son of God. In most cases, the atheistic motive is not to wrestle with God but rather to be liberated from the entanglements that are required to do so.
I think a lot of atheists genuinely seek truth but believe anything that can't be put on a solid, obvious foundation of truth must automatically be classified as a lie rather than an open question. What I think is sad is when this particular mindset reaches the point where a person begins to believe that objective morality itself is a fairy tale. Imagine putting acts of kindness in the same box as acts of malice and saying it's all inherently arbitrary. I think that's a very dangerous path.
I have often wrestled with my faith and come to the conclusion that believing in the existence of God and having faith in God are two different things.
Same base view here. I have been given every reason to have massive trust issues with him. I always show gratitude and appreciation for when good things happen, but beyond that, I have way too many reasons to have zero trust that he will ever be there when I need him the most.
@@tcmtech7515 I often turn to the book of Ecclesiastes to understand these things. I recommend reading the whole book But I will leave you with chapter 8 vs14. There is something else meaningless that occurs on the earth: Righteous men who get what the wicked deserve, and wicked men who get what the righteous deserve. this too I say is meaningless.
@@chad9455 You might be right but I think your message might also get lost in the way that you said it. In the context of a YT comments section-a world of trolling and insults-your message comes across as pointless criticism, rather than a love-based, helpful insight. Yes, if pride is an issue (and it usually is in all of us), then it is good to identify the problem and tear down the problem so that something stronger than be rebuilt. What would you encourage Violet to do to better replace any pride with faith?
No. Some of the things he has let happen to some of us are unforgivable. There is a point where so much has been taken from a person by evil that there is no reward that can balance it out.
Well Jacob did have faith (trusting belief) in God's existence , he just didn't trust his blessing as Jacob. That's why God permanently dislocated his hip, so he couldn't trust in his own strength. Even so he wouldn't let God go until God gave him what he asked him for, a blessing from the ultimate Father from heaven! You don't ask for a blessing from someone you don't believe in, or else how will they be able to give it to you? Only those that believe in God will wrestle with him and ask him for blessings. God changed his name as a sign that he was a changed man, he would now lean on God to bless him. Sinners mock God and refuse to acknowledge his very existence. No wrestling there, just contempt and rage against God that will result in their total destruction under his fiery wrath.😢 As for true New Testament believers in Christ, we not only wrestle with God at times, but we also wrestle against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Dr. Peterson's biblical musings are a perfect example of why mixing Greek philosophy with Scripture is NEVER a good idea.🤦🏻♀️ 🤷🏻♀️ Perhaps Dr. Peterson will "win" his wrestling match and ask the LORD Jesus Christ to forgive his sins and bless him with salvation.☺️♥️
Christianity is the mixing of Greek ideas and culture with scripture. Everything Christianity appended to the Tanach was in Greek, your founders identified by Greek names, your philosophy includes Greek concepts
@@OccuredJakub12 and your words reveal how truly blind you are. But perhaps there is just a big misunderstanding here. I'll leave you to decide for yourself.
I haven't yet seen other commentators with very different viewpoints, such as Richard Dawkins, speak in such a way or offer such interpretations of the human condition. In RD's use, he tends to oppose these kinds of views, but doesn't offer much of an alternative. Thank you Jordan - keep on wrestling!
Jordan Peterson and Richard Dawkins come at god in different ways. Jordan seems to view god as a “transcendent good” that people should strive toward and doesn’t really argue for a literalist interpretation of scripture like fundamentalist christians tend to. Richard Dawkins is a scientist who approaches the existence of god as a scientific question. You can’t really argue theology vs science and get very far.
@@revelation8199 You can due to the strong overlaps, but neither side seems to be willing to accept that there might be a valid solid center ground both can work from and be right at the same time.
@@illbeyourmonster5752 I’m no theology expert so I’m curious of where theology and science overlap but Jordan and Sam Harris’s debates/discussions established many areas of agreement between the two, much of which could probably apply to Richard Dawkins although he doesn’t have nearly as much philosophical knowledge as Sam does.
My two cents (TL;DR: nothing that hasn't already been said)... in relation to God, theology and science have a 100% overlap. They are both attempting to understand the infinite from different directions and both are works in progress because both will be forever incomplete, especially if one accepts that observing something changes the outcome and change is the only constant. I don't think that there is any conflict between science and religion; rather, there is conflict between individual scientists and religious adherents who want to claim that their view is the superior view. Consider doing a search, if you haven't already, for "blind men and an elephant parable". In that parable, God is the elephant and the blind men are the various avenues by which we attempt to describe God. Similarly, if a Jamaican visits New York City in the middle of winter and it begins to snow, he might be heard to ask, "what is that?" A nearby native New Yorker might answer, "snow" whereas a nearby visiting Inuit might answer, "qanik." 'Snow' and 'qanik' have two different meanings, despite their overlap, and both are reasonably correct answers, assuming that the Jamaican wasn't pointing at a pigeon! 🤣Either way, if the New Yorker and the Inuit spend their time bickering over who is most correct, they might overlook the more important aspect: maybe they should help the Jamaican find something other than shorts, sandals, and a "I ♥NY" t-shirt to wear. Luckily, I think that the bulk of scientists and adherents do exactly that. In my mind, for every two loud debaters there might be 1,000 quiet people living in harmony. We are all intellectual and spiritual creatures, so it is natural for us to harmonize both spectra, as long as we don't force the harmonization. To me, the individuals who want to claim superiority are like Adam and Eve: eating the fruit of the study of knowledge of good and evil. It is one thing to recognize that such a metaphorical tree exists. It is another to make such metaphorical fruit a part of oneself in the hopes that you have planted a seed within yourself in an effort to become the source of such authority.
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6
Profound thought: To be a believer is to commit to the rigour of contending with the structure of reality, objectivity and Faith. To struggle with your human deficits as you strive for a higher moral order. Your rational mind struggles to reconcile the contradiction between a perfect, all powerful, all knowing & all merciful God with the suffering of humanity, and specifically the events in our own lives that we consider to be unfair....YES we wrestle with GOD!
Thank you for respecting my freedom of speech. To believe that self is “evil” could and has resulted in many people (including members of clergy) … committing suicide. To believe that we are ALL emotionally damaged … suggests that we are all one and the same. Beware of those who claim to know … not only that a creator exists … but give off airs of knowing WHAT the creator is “thinking.” I prefer to invest faith in the scientific theory that the universe always existed … no creator … no plan … and that suffering of all forms of life … is “natural.” If I could cast off the spell of religion at age 70 … there is hope for everyone. I am now 84, and believe that if I am as kind to others as each situation allows … I can’t do better than my best.
I had the same thought. That the Israelite people, even though they saw all these incredible miracles still created a calf out of gold. And worshipped it despite knowing how real God was. The plagues of Egypt. Entire mountains on fire. Walls of fire barring the enemy from attacking you. The red sea parting so that you can pass. How was that not the definition of a stiff neck people?
In my notion and understanding about God is God is my tag team mate, every moment of my thought could be so devilish or bad or mischievous so I want to keep check that way,but exploring the Gods Profile is new to me ,hoping to know more about God's model from Dr.J Peterson 👍🙏
There is much to be done. If you are thinking of thoughts as devilish, then think of God as the voice of conscience. I recommend Dr. Peterson's recent series 'Exodus' as introduction, although his Psychology class lectures are college level gold.
@@atlasfeynman1039 my devilish is fly weight or feather weight,if you scale from red as worse to green as less worse... I think my devilish is in the mint green in world scale ,and I consented consciously crippled with the light of God's virtue 👍😄 I am not mind love your reply 🤝✌️
Do you seek to be chosen or seek to serve? Which is less selfish? Be willing to fight any battle that needs to be fought regardless of what the outcome may be, even if it is only for the right to ask questions or the right to sit and listen. Needs to be fought is the key phrase here because some battles are won by not fighting. Wrestling is fighting, I need not wrestle things which I do not doubt, nor do I need to wrestle with things that I know are beyond my ability to handle or comprehend. Should I do good things because a reward is promised or because I want to be the kind of person that does good things? None of this is as complex as we make it, and yes, in my life I have fought something I knew I could not beat, still needed done...
I mostly agree. What could it mean to wrestle with God? If God is the natural order and potential of the universe, then to wrestle with God means to establish new truth that was always true, but was unknown as an aspect of reality until that point. Simply holding up the established (blind following of religion) denies oneself of the opportunity to wrestle God just as one who asserts falsehoods as truth; to wrestle God would mean to overcome the limitations of what is known by adding to the pool of what is known (the kingdom of man under God).
I was curious for most of the video what it precisely was to wrestle with God; I understood loosely the points surrounding it, but once he got to the matter of contrasting it from the total subjugation to a totalitarian ideology, I think I got it more. Part of it is the integration of Chaos into one's conception of the binding Ideal -- the struggle isn't just to embody one's ideal but also to critique and attack one's conception of it in the hope that one might draw nearer to what it actually is. The point of great optimism in which Jacob actually seems to win (or at least is not overcome) is that perhaps -- for all man's fallibilities -- he can still draw at least somewhat nearer to the Ideal. It's sort of an Asymptote -- one will not ever 'intersect' with the True Ideal, but one may still draw infinitely near, and that's worthwhile.
Hosea 12 :4 - gives an insight into the Genesis wrestling - - Yea, he had power over the angel and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto Him; he found Him in Bethel, and there He spoke with us,
1 The Reconstruction of Christianity -> The passport stamp of approval in your life's journey. The book of the year is now on Amazon. Spirituality do you want to P-level it with a “meta” -> This is a video gaming term, designed to skip across the surface of gameplay in a timely variable put together into a formula of modularity for the skill tree implied. Based upon a spreadsheet formula of math.
I wrestle with God and I’m glad for it. If I figured it all out then what the hell would I think about, Brittney Speers? One of the reasons for the mysteries is to keep God in the front of your thoughts otherwise you would just take him for granted. It,s genius!
Jordan was born into a hierarchy predicated on his father Walt's obsession with emotionally wrestling with his father. Walt is gripped by a father who was a conflict over nearly everything. (Walt went to his Grandfather looking for a reliable father figure.) Jordan is gripped by a father who is replete with opinions and stubbornness as a strategy to cover up his emotional confusion and chaos concerning a father figure. Jordan is confused fragmented and hopeless in the absence of wrestling with his father because that is where he is emotionally organized to get his existence. Jordan learned to self-impose his father's relentless negation of him as a strategy to avoid triggering his father's torrential flood of unconscious dislikes. (Rule 5) Jordan's self-imposed negation of himself is also a strategy to sacrifice the developmental needs and tasks that are innately prompting him to grow.
If you haven't wrestled with God you haven't ever walked with Him. It's a family relationship. Haven't you known your parents were right, but still argued and thought they were against you?
*Massive amount of comment censorship going on in this video.* (Never of the the obvious crypto/investment spam/scam bot or political harassment bots of course.)
to be chosen by god, is not always good, you can be an exemplary of misconduct. Strongest demons in hindu mythology thought about God always, but they thought of him in a negative manner, and they never won. This approach is condemned by vedas. His mother was also wrestling with him, and she won, because she was doing it with love. So the main point is if you wrestle with god out of hatred, you will loose, if you wrestle with love, he will let you win.
If you have the time it has an interesting origin to it and how it became one of his favorites. I've never had a suit myself but given the extreme dynamics of my life, I have contemplated having a custom one of a similar design done for myself someday.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 📚 *The title "We Who Wrestle with God" is inspired by the story of Jacob wrestling with an angel or God in the Book of Genesis.* 01:09 🌐 *The term "Israel" originates from the story, representing the chosen people who wrestle with God, emphasizing the universal nature of grappling with higher ideals.* 01:52 ⚖️ *Regardless of religious belief, individuals, including atheists, engage in intense moral and ethical wrestling, making it a cornerstone of identity.* 02:33 🤔 *The concept challenges the idea that believers are chosen; instead, those who struggle and wrestle with the highest ideals are considered chosen.* 03:22 💪 *To be chosen by God is not about blind belief but to wrestle with the highest ideals, allowing them to grip and obsess over, promoting psychological integration.* 04:17 🌍 *Unity of purpose, oriented towards a shared vision, is seen as essential for societal coherence, contrasting with confusion, fragmentation, and hopelessness.* 05:02 🌱 *The optimism lies in finding purpose in the act of wrestling itself, rather than in totalitarian beliefs, blind ideology, or corrosive cynicism.* Made with HARPA AI
The problem is that Christian faith is not built on opposing atheism but the love of God, sin if man and his sacrifice for us. In contrary atheism pretty much is built on opposing and often even anger against God.
Too many people focus on the "magic man in the sky" aspect of it and forget that the Bible is just a collection of stories, and the stories were the only way our ancestors could communicate knowledge to newer generations. They are stories to describe purpose and the human spirit. If you wave them off like it is just some joke then you are basically admitting that stories don't have any moral to them, and there is nothing to learn from them. These religious stories have lasted thousands of years for a reason. The entire Bible and Koran is basically wrestling with God. Wrestling with purpose and what is most ideal.
James, if you think sin is not in you, you are deceived. Paul, all have fallen short none have sought after God. If you think you're following God with every breath with every stride you are deceived . Only by his grace are you saved.
In the Book of Revelation.. God is always waiting for us.. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in and dine with you and you with me" (8:12; 3:20).
‘Wrestling with God’ is akin to ‘lifting up your cross and following me’ in biblical terms. The Bible is full of people who wrestled with God, playing their part in the Theodrama that God has been writing since day one. Nobody gets a pass. We all play a part whether we like it or not.
I have immense respect for Dr Peterson. And he always dresses great. But he also continually makes a fundamental error: he has never actually defined god. Without a proper definition of god, the entire enterprise of searching for, or struggling with, or appealing to, is entirely without foundation. Without this definition, people are likely to create gods which fit with their own tendencies and social constructs, which is probably why the human race has created tens of thousands of them.
I was reading this passage yesterday, almost at the same time this was posted.
Jacob did not "win", as in overpowering the Angel, but he passed the test. When the Angel touches his hip, it's a clear sign he could have destroyed Jacob from the very beginning, but that was not the intention of the fight. It was to test Jacob's heart, and I think that's something we have to take as a lesson. Not letting go of God, whether the relationship we have with him is smooth or conflictive, we cannot let go of his blessing and, more importantly, His presence in our lives.
Beautifully put. Amen.
Not sure if you meant to, but you basically paraphrased Deuteronomy 8:2. This, in my opinion, is one of the most fundamental and worldview building passages of the bible. THANK YOU for your insight. I had not made this connection before.
Be blessed abundantly!
Does this man know that Jesus is God and the only way to the Father?
I reject the monster Yahweh with all possible emphasis. Children are capable of higher morality.
@@agingerbeard sometimes. And sometimes not. I work with little ones. You'd be surprised - they swing from beautiful to terrible. Like the rest of us.
That episode in the Bible always stuck with me. Jacob is trembling at the idea of meeting his brother knowing he and his family might perish, and he prays alone at night, hoping God will comfort and strengthen him. What he gets is a mysterious night long fight from which he emerges limping. The Angel initiates the fight and none of them wins for a long time. The conclusion is the strike to Jacob's side. Jacob doesn't want to let him go, he wants to know his name, and the Angel responds: why do you ask my name? (As in: don't you know me? In the Bible God sends his Angels to speak for Him as Himself)
And then Jacob gets a new name. "Because you have wrestled with God, and you won."
Jacob will be a patriarch whose memory is immortal. His 12 kids will start families that will become huge tribes and the whole people of Israel. His son Joseph will be king of Egypt and save his family and the country from famine. And Jacob was just a good, simple guy with a young family trying to get by at that point. Running from his own brother after living in exile, working for his relative, for years. He fears his brother will skin him and God... just sends him one more fight. And the next day his brother is happy to see him and all is well.
Sometimes I feel God is like a good dad that if I fall, will pat me and comfort me but won't share my panic and pessimism. On the contrary he'll challenge me to stand up again. "You can do this. Come on."
I see that in Jesus's Passion. Jacob praying for his life, alone at night, always reminded me of Jesus praying in the garden before they came to arrest Him. Just the thought of what was about to happen was unspeakable fear for both. They are both challenged to keep on fighting.
Jesus also emerges from his prayer place somewhat limping, like someone who has been bleeding, but He will walk straight towards the people who are coming for Him along with the "brother", one of his best friends, Judas, who will put Him to death. Jesus will die, but just three days later His victory shows. With Him, life goes on, life goes up, life comes back, life restarts and renews. Life has a new face and a new name.
All this I felt it come true in me, in my deepest hellish experiences, and He knows I owe him my will to live and my hope and sanity, praise be to Him forever.
Thank you Dr. Peterson for what you do.
Thank you for your testimony!
You made me cry a little with the line "Just one more fight" because i going trought somenthing almost like that right now in my life.
I've read the story of Jacob and Gospels of Jesus. But Reading trought your perspective mande learn and relearn someting new!
Thank you once again and may God bless you and your family!
Você trouxe uma análise muito mais clara e mais profunda que a do Peterson. Obrigado.
This testimony is deeply moving and consoling. God bless and protect you!
foeget the bull shit bible,all read the conversations with god books 1 ,2 and 3
Thank you ❤
Praying for you as you walk through this present “trial”, my brother. God be with you.
😂😂 Jordan got things backwards when it comes to his belief and he says he knows Jesus but he's afraid to accept Jesus 😂😂 fking coward fears truth
How about God be with those that actually fking need 👍🏻🖕 not these people with everything in life ffs
"IMAGINE WHO YOU COULD BE, AND THEN AIM SINGLE MINDEDLY AT THAT". YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's almost impossible to imagine of who you want to be from the start point. Because, in a year things may change so drastically, that only echoes may remain of your original image of yourself. It depends on so many factors, that it's so naive to believe that you'll be able to nail it - who you want to be, and what you really want from the start point. For example: i thought i knew who i wanted to be, but then the war in my country, in Ukraine broke out, and suddenly, in the morning on 24th i realised, that my image of who i wanted to be turned into an illusion.....
@@AlexSomething-l9p Who did you want to be?
I like how I started to scroll down towards the end and read your comment right as he said on the dot
@@AlexSomething-l9p I'm sooo sorry! Yes, I hope for all to be, yet many times life has given me roadblocks. Yet, I try again.
@@mikesw3ll153me too😂
I'm praying for Dr. Peterson I hope one day he comes into full salvation. Head knowledge is just that head knowledge and you can miss heaven by 18 inches if you don't let head knowledge become heart transformation....God Bless!!!
Salvation means committing your entire life to, not just saying you believe it and I love how he is bringing that message back to our Protestant brothers and sisters. Saying it is missing the entire point. Even believing it is missing the entire point. It’s openining your heart accepting the Holy Spirit and we’re not done there but we’re called to give it away so we can receive more, and then give that away and receive more it’s a relationship you put every once of your being into. Not many Christians get it
I've had extreme nightmares for most of my life. But after hearing this, I'm much more grateful for those wrestlings and opportunities to try to win, even when I fall.
Pray to Jesus, Yeshua
Get a cat. When he responds on the night I realize those men are no longer in my life I am safe and my prayers to God are thanks not panicked pleas for safety.
Follow God, reject the Devil. God bless Dr. Peterson
Make sure it's God first.
I reject Peterson and your vile Yahweh. I will not be gaslit or terrified into the clutches of the monster of the Abrahamic religions.
God likes the ppl who question him more than blind followers
@@stringbender3 Then God must love me something fierce. 😋
@@illbeyourmonster5752 He does.
I really, really like this idea. That the chosen people are not defined by place, or ethnicity, or *mindless belief,* but by struggling with moral concepts. It's like you said about, if malevolence is evil, then the opposite is play. Wrestling is the play version of fighting. It's pretty close to outright war, but the point of wrestling is to have a fight and neither side actually dies. It's to match skill and strength in a way that makes both sides better. So this means, Jordan, that God wants a partner. It means *He learns and gets better by struggling with US.*
May you have long long life among us, Jordan Peterson...!
You gotta love this guy! God bless JP!
The ten second pause is best.
I love how he does that. You can tell he's so careful about what he says and he doesn't mind those pauses so he can try to find the absolute best way to communicate what he wants to say.
I was reading a comment when the pause took place..I looked up to see what was wrong and could see the gears spinning in Peterson's brain! 🤯
I absolutely love it. It's like clockwork, because you know the next words coming out will absolutely ring!
As usual brilliant and articulated
Calling word salad "articulate" is an interesting take 😅
I will follow God!
As long as you don’t force others to follow the same delusion, following whatever you like is perfectly fine. 👍
@@Re1d3Nope, I don’t need a bullshit book of any kind. (Plus I don’t have a fireplace to make such a book useful.)
Remember to count the cost first. Following Christ no matter what comes with a great cost..but it is so worth it! ❤
Amen!
@@AndrejPodzimek
A cry for help or do you just need attention?
The spirit of anti-christ is in you..
I wouldn’t say he was victorious, he simply didn’t lose. I think the very fact that God could simply touch him and defeat him (and he did that’s how the hip injury came about) shows just how amazing it is that God was willing to fight Jacob on Jacob’s terms rather than destroying him outright.
P.S. In English bibles in the old testament there are specific references to a specific angel whose name is always written with a capital letter A if it says “Angel”. Scholars believe this to be Jesus, and that’s why the Angel could tell Jacob he fought with God. Not ambiguious at all really. Jacob fought Jesus.
Yes. I was surprised Jordan didn't mention that. But then, an in-depth analysis of that story wasn't really his point. This made me even more eager to read his book.
This makes 0 sense lol. The knots you guys tie yourselves into 😂
@@DontDrinkthatstuffwhat knots?
We all do better when we lift each other up, thanks for the reminder.
They can’t stop this man he is anointed
By who?
@@agingerbeardJeebus
@@DontDrinkthatstuff daaaaad stop calling me Jeezy Creezy!!
@@agingerbeard triggered atheist spotted. trolling in the comments again because his demons know Jesus Christ is lord
This was the Manchester show at the O2. Looking forward to the new tour
Looking forward to hearing more about wrestling with the Divine Truth in March when you visit Atlanta. Much love from GA Dr.
Looking forward to his book of the same title.
You say its not those who believe but those who wrestle that are chosen. Good point. But consider the reason for the wrestling. The wrestling was not AGAINST God, but rather FOR a blessing FROM God. This key point makes a significant difference, BECAUSE one cannot wrestle with God FOR a blessing FROM Him if one does not first BELIEVE in Him.
Yes! Context is everything. Not philosophizing the entire Word of God.
Maybe wrestling does not mean not believing in God, but it may represent the typical wrestle we believers have when we feel our fears are overwhelming and our prayers are not heard. We tend to create trouble for ourselves with our behaviors just like Jacob and when the fan hits the roof we fear the worst, then we run to God with desperation wanting him to give us a right now solution, we struggle internally, and we even doubt our faith if he does not respond quickly, are we devote enough, is he punishing me, am I a bad believer and when all that is exhausted we make up stories of why would He not want to help us, our minds go nuts trying to fill the gaps of uncertainty because we have no inner peace, all we see and hear is what our mind shows us. That for me signifies the wrestle. The hip wound is what usually happens to us when God takes us to our limit to break our paranoid mental state and allow us to enter a state of faith and peace, let go, and let God.
@@MariaDeLeonart I agree. You make a lot of good points. Wresting does not equate believing. But we have to first have a basis of belief before we can wrestle.
to be chosen by God is to wrestle with that which is highest _ GREAT WISDOM
Wrestling - not rebellion nor rejection. You might call it negotiating, as Moses did regarding the people of Israel, and Abraham, regarding the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. Contending, but never contemptuous.
Wrestling is a rich word, full of meaning.
In order to “wrestle” one must be in very close proximity to the one in which you are wrestling with. It’s about motive, and it’s always about motive. Jacob’s motive was to establish his identity in the Lord. Who he was, wrestled with who he longed to be. A son of God.
In most cases, the atheistic motive is not to wrestle with God but rather to be liberated from the entanglements that are required to do so.
I think a lot of atheists genuinely seek truth but believe anything that can't be put on a solid, obvious foundation of truth must automatically be classified as a lie rather than an open question. What I think is sad is when this particular mindset reaches the point where a person begins to believe that objective morality itself is a fairy tale. Imagine putting acts of kindness in the same box as acts of malice and saying it's all inherently arbitrary. I think that's a very dangerous path.
I have often wrestled with my faith and come to the conclusion that believing in the existence of God and having faith in God are two different things.
Same base view here. I have been given every reason to have massive trust issues with him. I always show gratitude and appreciation for when good things happen, but beyond that, I have way too many reasons to have zero trust that he will ever be there when I need him the most.
@@tcmtech7515 I often turn to the book of Ecclesiastes to understand these things. I recommend reading the whole book But I will leave you with chapter 8 vs14.
There is something else meaningless that occurs on the earth: Righteous men who get what the wicked deserve, and wicked men who get what the righteous deserve. this too I say is meaningless.
Your pride has blinded you. You don’t trust him because you believe you’re better than him.
@@chad9455 Most of us don't trust him because he has proven to be horribly unreliable when we needed him the most.
@@chad9455 You might be right but I think your message might also get lost in the way that you said it. In the context of a YT comments section-a world of trolling and insults-your message comes across as pointless criticism, rather than a love-based, helpful insight. Yes, if pride is an issue (and it usually is in all of us), then it is good to identify the problem and tear down the problem so that something stronger than be rebuilt. What would you encourage Violet to do to better replace any pride with faith?
Thy will be done. Surrender. Be still and know that I am God 🙏💗
The soul is yours the spirit is gods
No. Some of the things he has let happen to some of us are unforgivable.
There is a point where so much has been taken from a person by evil that there is no reward that can balance it out.
All glory to flamechick6, she is our God forever and ever! 🤣🤣🤣
@@agingerbeard lol
Be still, and know---there is no "God."
Divine timing
He gets it ❤
Well Jacob did have faith (trusting belief) in God's existence , he just didn't trust his blessing as Jacob. That's why God permanently dislocated his hip, so he couldn't trust in his own strength. Even so he wouldn't let God go until God gave him what he asked him for, a blessing from the ultimate Father from heaven! You don't ask for a blessing from someone you don't believe in, or else how will they be able to give it to you? Only those that believe in God will wrestle with him and ask him for blessings. God changed his name as a sign that he was a changed man, he would now lean on God to bless him. Sinners mock God and refuse to acknowledge his very existence. No wrestling there, just contempt and rage against God that will result in their total destruction under his fiery wrath.😢
As for true New Testament believers in Christ, we not only wrestle with God at times, but we also wrestle against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Dr. Peterson's biblical musings are a perfect example of why mixing Greek philosophy with Scripture is NEVER a good idea.🤦🏻♀️ 🤷🏻♀️
Perhaps Dr. Peterson will "win" his wrestling match and ask the LORD Jesus Christ to forgive his sins and bless him with salvation.☺️♥️
I'm praying for his intellect to step aside and the eyes of his heart to truly be opened to repent and put his trust in Jesus as Lord & Christ!
Christianity is the mixing of Greek ideas and culture with scripture.
Everything Christianity appended to the Tanach was in Greek, your founders identified by Greek names, your philosophy includes Greek concepts
Your words reveal just how prideful you really are
@@OccuredJakub12 and your words reveal how truly blind you are. But perhaps there is just a big misunderstanding here. I'll leave you to decide for yourself.
Getting closer to that real calling I see DrPeterson
I wouldn't call the absolute failure of apologetics a "calling" but you do you 🤷♂️
I'd like to see you try and do better lol@@agingerbeard
@@Tigerrr33 at refuting apologetics? No need. 15+ years of video evidence of apologetics failing exists. Don't worry, the cataloguing continues 😅
@@agingerbeard Jesus loves you ❤️✝️
@@Provocative-K Jesus, if he existed, is long dead. I don't care what he thinks about me. If you think I should care, maybe give me a reason to.
God bless you Jordan, god is using you in a mighty way to reach people
I’ve always been an optimist too
I haven't yet seen other commentators with very different viewpoints, such as Richard Dawkins, speak in such a way or offer such interpretations of the human condition. In RD's use, he tends to oppose these kinds of views, but doesn't offer much of an alternative. Thank you Jordan - keep on wrestling!
Jordan Peterson and Richard Dawkins come at god in different ways. Jordan seems to view god as a “transcendent good” that people should strive toward and doesn’t really argue for a literalist interpretation of scripture like fundamentalist christians tend to. Richard Dawkins is a scientist who approaches the existence of god as a scientific question. You can’t really argue theology vs science and get very far.
@@revelation8199 You can due to the strong overlaps, but neither side seems to be willing to accept that there might be a valid solid center ground both can work from and be right at the same time.
@@illbeyourmonster5752 I’m no theology expert so I’m curious of where theology and science overlap but Jordan and Sam Harris’s debates/discussions established many areas of agreement between the two, much of which could probably apply to Richard Dawkins although he doesn’t have nearly as much philosophical knowledge as Sam does.
My two cents (TL;DR: nothing that hasn't already been said)... in relation to God, theology and science have a 100% overlap. They are both attempting to understand the infinite from different directions and both are works in progress because both will be forever incomplete, especially if one accepts that observing something changes the outcome and change is the only constant. I don't think that there is any conflict between science and religion; rather, there is conflict between individual scientists and religious adherents who want to claim that their view is the superior view.
Consider doing a search, if you haven't already, for "blind men and an elephant parable". In that parable, God is the elephant and the blind men are the various avenues by which we attempt to describe God.
Similarly, if a Jamaican visits New York City in the middle of winter and it begins to snow, he might be heard to ask, "what is that?" A nearby native New Yorker might answer, "snow" whereas a nearby visiting Inuit might answer, "qanik." 'Snow' and 'qanik' have two different meanings, despite their overlap, and both are reasonably correct answers, assuming that the Jamaican wasn't pointing at a pigeon! 🤣Either way, if the New Yorker and the Inuit spend their time bickering over who is most correct, they might overlook the more important aspect: maybe they should help the Jamaican find something other than shorts, sandals, and a "I ♥NY" t-shirt to wear.
Luckily, I think that the bulk of scientists and adherents do exactly that. In my mind, for every two loud debaters there might be 1,000 quiet people living in harmony. We are all intellectual and spiritual creatures, so it is natural for us to harmonize both spectra, as long as we don't force the harmonization.
To me, the individuals who want to claim superiority are like Adam and Eve: eating the fruit of the study of knowledge of good and evil. It is one thing to recognize that such a metaphorical tree exists. It is another to make such metaphorical fruit a part of oneself in the hopes that you have planted a seed within yourself in an effort to become the source of such authority.
thank you everyone for your valuable comments and insights - my personal journey to a deeper understanding goes on.
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Hebrews 11:6
Being free from your ego! ❤️🙏🏻
Profound thought: To be a believer is to commit to the rigour of contending with the structure of reality, objectivity and Faith. To struggle with your human deficits as you strive for a higher moral order. Your rational mind struggles to reconcile the contradiction between a perfect, all powerful, all knowing & all merciful God with the suffering of humanity, and specifically the events in our own lives that we consider to be unfair....YES we wrestle with GOD!
A modern day CS Lewis, & then some! …with the same accent my uncles have! 🙌🏽
Thanks!
Dr. JP never missed! His interpretions of the Biblical stories are simply well thought out and amazing. Well done professor!
Help me Lord
It’s very simple: God is not an idea, it’s a reality, for both believers and non-believers. Deal with that.
Whether you have faith in him or not - wrestle with him.
I've been doing MMA with him and the obvious hypocrisy for years.
The god in the bible is evil and must be opposed, both as the fairy tale that it is, and as the genocidal and sadistic monster the character is.
@divine.defined.sthetics9876 So is your use of capitalization and punctuation. 😋
@divine.defined.sthetics9876 Which grade school-level words from my first post are giving you trouble?
@divine.defined.sthetics9876 And your replies are bot-level nonsequitur.
thank you.
Thanks.
Thank you for respecting my freedom of speech.
To believe that self is “evil” could and has resulted in many people (including members of clergy) … committing suicide.
To believe that we are ALL emotionally damaged … suggests that we are all one and the same.
Beware of those who claim to know … not only that a creator exists … but give off airs of knowing WHAT the creator is “thinking.”
I prefer to invest faith in the scientific theory that the universe always existed … no creator … no plan … and that suffering of all forms of life … is “natural.”
If I could cast off the spell of religion at age 70 … there is hope for everyone.
I am now 84, and believe that if I am as kind to others as each situation allows … I can’t do better than my best.
I don t follow any Gods, but I love studying religions and I really love Jordan Peterson…such a win win situation.
When Jesus arrives those who kneel in prayer will have peace. Those who do not will struggle with themselves. Knock and he will answer ❤😊
God bless JBP. Excited. Mahalo nui
I feel challenged to do almost anything single-mindedly. I remember experiencing that state in my youth. I guess I should accept the challenge.
Love God
Above all trust god
I had the same thought. That the Israelite people, even though they saw all these incredible miracles still created a calf out of gold. And worshipped it despite knowing how real God was. The plagues of Egypt. Entire mountains on fire. Walls of fire barring the enemy from attacking you. The red sea parting so that you can pass. How was that not the definition of a stiff neck people?
His the best at explaining things I swear
We do! I’ve left the debating society❤️🥰❤️❤️❤️
Love you sir …
A diamond os formed by pressure. Just like strong character is formed by your daily struggles. You can let it crush you or shape you.
In my notion and understanding about God is God is my tag team mate, every moment of my thought could be so devilish or bad or mischievous so I want to keep check that way,but exploring the Gods Profile is new to me ,hoping to know more about God's model from Dr.J Peterson 👍🙏
There is much to be done. If you are thinking of thoughts as devilish, then think of God as the voice of conscience. I recommend Dr. Peterson's recent series 'Exodus' as introduction, although his Psychology class lectures are college level gold.
@@atlasfeynman1039 my devilish is fly weight or feather weight,if you scale from red as worse to green as less worse... I think my devilish is in the mint green in world scale ,and I consented consciously crippled with the light of God's virtue 👍😄 I am not mind love your reply 🤝✌️
Do you seek to be chosen or seek to serve? Which is less selfish? Be willing to fight any battle that needs to be fought regardless of what the outcome may be, even if it is only for the right to ask questions or the right to sit and listen. Needs to be fought is the key phrase here because some battles are won by not fighting. Wrestling is fighting, I need not wrestle things which I do not doubt, nor do I need to wrestle with things that I know are beyond my ability to handle or comprehend. Should I do good things because a reward is promised or because I want to be the kind of person that does good things?
None of this is as complex as we make it, and yes, in my life I have fought something I knew I could not beat, still needed done...
I mostly agree. What could it mean to wrestle with God? If God is the natural order and potential of the universe, then to wrestle with God means to establish new truth that was always true, but was unknown as an aspect of reality until that point. Simply holding up the established (blind following of religion) denies oneself of the opportunity to wrestle God just as one who asserts falsehoods as truth; to wrestle God would mean to overcome the limitations of what is known by adding to the pool of what is known (the kingdom of man under God).
This was in Stl. Was there for it it was a fantastic experience
In taking Dr. Peterson's license they freed him for so much more to so many more.
Did they officially take his license???
"There Are Two Wolfs Fighting In All Of Us , One Good , One Evil . The One You Feed Is The One That Wins" [Native American Proverb] 🪶
Thought: When one wrestles with another you must be physically close. Touching God.
And when one strives with the Almighty his “walk” will be forever changed.
I was curious for most of the video what it precisely was to wrestle with God; I understood loosely the points surrounding it, but once he got to the matter of contrasting it from the total subjugation to a totalitarian ideology, I think I got it more. Part of it is the integration of Chaos into one's conception of the binding Ideal -- the struggle isn't just to embody one's ideal but also to critique and attack one's conception of it in the hope that one might draw nearer to what it actually is. The point of great optimism in which Jacob actually seems to win (or at least is not overcome) is that perhaps -- for all man's fallibilities -- he can still draw at least somewhat nearer to the Ideal. It's sort of an Asymptote -- one will not ever 'intersect' with the True Ideal, but one may still draw infinitely near, and that's worthwhile.
Just bought tickets for his tour stop in Los Angeles 👌
lord Jesus and our heavenly father bless this man.
Thank You 🙏 Jesus 😇
For Love 💕 and Peace
Excellent point about the Atheists, Dr. Peterson.
Could some Atheists possibly be considered the 'Righteous of other Nations'?
Hosea 12 :4 - gives an insight into the Genesis wrestling - -
Yea, he had power over the angel and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto Him; he found Him in Bethel, and there He spoke with us,
1 The Reconstruction of Christianity -> The passport stamp of approval in your life's journey. The book of the year is now on Amazon.
Spirituality do you want to P-level it with a “meta” -> This is a video gaming term, designed to skip across the surface of gameplay in a timely variable put together into a formula of modularity for the skill tree implied. Based upon a spreadsheet formula of math.
I've wondered how you handle the part of Abraham's story where his faith is scored as righteousness and resulting justification.
I wrestle with God and I’m glad for it. If I figured it all out then what the hell would I think about, Brittney Speers? One of the reasons for the mysteries is to keep God in the front of your thoughts otherwise you would just take him for granted. It,s genius!
Jordan was born into a hierarchy predicated on his father Walt's obsession with emotionally wrestling with his father.
Walt is gripped by a father who was a conflict over nearly everything. (Walt went to his Grandfather looking for a reliable father figure.)
Jordan is gripped by a father who is replete with opinions and stubbornness as a strategy to cover up his emotional confusion and chaos concerning a father figure.
Jordan is confused fragmented and hopeless in the absence of wrestling with his father because that is where he is emotionally organized to get his existence.
Jordan learned to self-impose his father's relentless negation of him as a strategy to avoid triggering his father's torrential flood of unconscious dislikes. (Rule 5)
Jordan's self-imposed negation of himself is also a strategy to sacrifice the developmental needs and tasks that are innately prompting him to grow.
My hip hurts!
Powerful statement no excuses , God will not stand for that .
If you haven't wrestled with God you haven't ever walked with Him. It's a family relationship. Haven't you known your parents were right, but still argued and thought they were against you?
I vote for this comment to be pinned ❤
well said Sir
*Massive amount of comment censorship going on in this video.*
(Never of the the obvious crypto/investment spam/scam bot or political harassment bots of course.)
This reminds me of a somewhat similar theme from the parable of the prodigal son about boxing with God as a means of submitting to His discernment.
No, humanists don’t wrestle with the concept at all.
to be chosen by god, is not always good, you can be an exemplary of misconduct. Strongest demons in hindu mythology thought about God always, but they thought of him in a negative manner, and they never won. This approach is condemned by vedas. His mother was also wrestling with him, and she won, because she was doing it with love. So the main point is if you wrestle with god out of hatred, you will loose, if you wrestle with love, he will let you win.
An incredible man. Not sure about the suit though. 😊
If you have the time it has an interesting origin to it and how it became one of his favorites.
I've never had a suit myself but given the extreme dynamics of my life, I have contemplated having a custom one of a similar design done for myself someday.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 📚 *The title "We Who Wrestle with God" is inspired by the story of Jacob wrestling with an angel or God in the Book of Genesis.*
01:09 🌐 *The term "Israel" originates from the story, representing the chosen people who wrestle with God, emphasizing the universal nature of grappling with higher ideals.*
01:52 ⚖️ *Regardless of religious belief, individuals, including atheists, engage in intense moral and ethical wrestling, making it a cornerstone of identity.*
02:33 🤔 *The concept challenges the idea that believers are chosen; instead, those who struggle and wrestle with the highest ideals are considered chosen.*
03:22 💪 *To be chosen by God is not about blind belief but to wrestle with the highest ideals, allowing them to grip and obsess over, promoting psychological integration.*
04:17 🌍 *Unity of purpose, oriented towards a shared vision, is seen as essential for societal coherence, contrasting with confusion, fragmentation, and hopelessness.*
05:02 🌱 *The optimism lies in finding purpose in the act of wrestling itself, rather than in totalitarian beliefs, blind ideology, or corrosive cynicism.*
Made with HARPA AI
The problem is that Christian faith is not built on opposing atheism but the love of God, sin if man and his sacrifice for us. In contrary atheism pretty much is built on opposing and often even anger against God.
Traditional Christians: this man does not represent you
wrestling.. continual knocking.. how far will we go with God to see Him face to face?
Too many people focus on the "magic man in the sky" aspect of it and forget that the Bible is just a collection of stories, and the stories were the only way our ancestors could communicate knowledge to newer generations. They are stories to describe purpose and the human spirit. If you wave them off like it is just some joke then you are basically admitting that stories don't have any moral to them, and there is nothing to learn from them. These religious stories have lasted thousands of years for a reason. The entire Bible and Koran is basically wrestling with God. Wrestling with purpose and what is most ideal.
Love the suit, it's so you...and so you...
"The children of the kingdom will be thrown into outer darkness and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
Let go and let God. It’s as simple as saying don’t let the devil get a foothold on you!
why should anyone wrestle with everlasting life? It is a matter of change.
How about - ignore god?
It's like ignoring your household
James, if you think sin is not in you, you are deceived. Paul, all have fallen short none have sought after God.
If you think you're following God with every breath with every stride you are deceived .
Only by his grace are you saved.
Yup ! That is one of principles that Universe drives on .
In the Book of Revelation.. God is always waiting for us.. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in and dine with you and you with me" (8:12; 3:20).
This man is the nearest thing this world has to a prophet of God.
Wow AMEN 🙏
What if you cannot imagine who you could be? What if you cannot even imagine being? What then? Aim for that void, that abyss?
Something in you is telling you no to this. Find the tiniest bit of light you can imagine, and move toward it. I promise it will grow.
The devil is all about deception, God is all about truth, God is the highest point, the devil is the lowest point.
‘Wrestling with God’ is akin to ‘lifting up your cross and following me’ in biblical terms. The Bible is full of people who wrestled with God, playing their part in the Theodrama that God has been writing since day one. Nobody gets a pass. We all play a part whether we like it or not.
no resistance, no gain…
JP♥️
I have immense respect for Dr Peterson. And he always dresses great.
But he also continually makes a fundamental error: he has never actually defined god.
Without a proper definition of god, the entire enterprise of searching for, or struggling with, or appealing to, is entirely without foundation.
Without this definition, people are likely to create gods which fit with their own tendencies and social constructs, which is probably why the human race has created tens of thousands of them.