I have always felt as though reality is not one or the other, but rather a mixture of both determinism and free will. I love how he essentially explained it as "The further out into the future you look, the more free will you see, and the closer things get the more deterministic they become."
I see it more like one of those story books where you read a chapter then it says something like "if you open the door go to page 12, if you run away go to page 47". We have free will in the moment, but all of the possibilities are already written. It's like how a video game can have multiple endings depending on player choice. That's how I respond when people say "if you believe in predeterminism why do you look before crossing the road?". Because free will is both real _and_ non-existent. It's the illusion of choice.
@@blumousey Exactly. You might think you're holding someone accountable but it was always going to happen regardless of what you think you decide. Your experiences good or bad are just that. We must have the illusion of free will for the experience to be authentic. Even what I write is no decision of my own, I made a mistake and it wiped out my whole message, that was not coincidence either. Sorry but the other point is that holding someone accountable is part of the illusion and will happen or not regardless of what you think about the situation.
That doesn't mean that's your choice though does it. It's just your mind going "oh yea i seem to be going in this direction so guess i'll make my choice to go this direction." You get it? If you understand light it all makes more sense, we're literally only seeing and experiencing the past.
@@theshushu7940 "That doesn't mean that's your choice though does it." It does. Because choice by definition means the power to select A or B, or XYZ. If you have the power, the only other remaining variable is the will. If you chose the path A, means you had the power to do so, and it was your will to do so.
@@alterego157 False. You didn't create or have any control over the framework in which so called "decisions" emerge. This is evident in people who are intoxicated, mentally impaired, brain damaged or under general anesthetic.
“Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” Viktor E. Frankl
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
When he starts with “the universe is not deterministic, there isn’t any dispute about that”, how am I supposed to take the rest seriously? I see people dispute that claim all the time.
@@plotofland2928 If all things are within a cause and effect chain then the universe itself makes no sense to me. Where is the terminus? "Always was" doesn't fit within a cause and effect chain. It's irrelevant whether the universe is deterministic or indeterministic. Indeterminism doesn't result in free will. As opposed to choices being determined then choices becomes random. However, the belief that your choices are determined and that you can't will things, whether or not it's true, results in worse outcomes. Some Christians believe even your very willpower to do the right thing is through the grace of god. Some are destined for hell and others destined for heaven. You're an observer of a piece of art that you're a part of.
@@Sam-d7m8w I mostly agree with you, especially the last paragraph. The universe seems to work by cause and effect although that does sort of imply that there was a "beginning" to this process which doesn't really make sense. Indeterminism doesn't result in free will but does indeterminism really exist anyway? If the world is indeterministic, that can only mean that certain things are random but does randomness actually exist or is it just unexplained or not yet understood cause and effect? Take rolling a dice: The result is not random, it is just influenced by so many factors that humans playing monopoly or Yahtzee cannot predict or control these factors. Randomness on an absolute true level does not make any sense. It is akin to magic.
@@plotofland2928 Some things are determined since from moment to moment we experience them. In the domain of consciousness there may be randomness influencing our decisions. He's generally right about us not being like a clockwork machine. We have qualities that are very different. E.g color perception. Just as we can't describe color yet it's an ability we have. We can train a robot to detect a certain wavelength and call it blue but the robot wouldn't necessarily experience what we experience. It's detecting a quantity not experiencing a quality. None of that would escape the dichotomy of determinacy or indeterminacy both of which don't allow for "free will" in some sense of the word. Indeterminacy maybe gets closer to "free" as in unrestrained but when people say "free will" they mean ultimately as an agent "they" decide. Not because of a random number generator or a script written by god. He knows all this though. He also knows that people tend to function more poorly when they believe they lack autonomy in the ultimate sense. Especially stupid people. I think so much of what he says is a kind of paternalism for stupid people.
@@Sam-d7m8wSo acceptance of truth depends on your convenience. Well that explains a lot about Christian conservatives and JP fans. Who cares about the truth? We will believe whatever is good for us. No matter how immoral and false it is.
Pretty much everything he said can be true, that still doesn't get us to free will. Seems like he's addressing something fundamentally different than what most people define as "the ability to have done otherwise".
You choose if you want to walk with god, nothing is forcing you, not even god. Many argue that it is forced, and have a lot of different arguments about why. What he explains is that nothing you do is as pre-determined and controlled as 'something without free will'. Like any type of machine, a clock or an engine. They are forced to do that, no way around it, if so, it breaks. Arguments common here is that it's indirectly forced, being that you can't do whatever you want and still get to paradise/heaven. If you dont want God as you friend, it would be foolish of him to force you to be that, wouldn't it? It is pretty complex in of itself, but this is basically what it is all about. You'd be a resentful friend, not a good friendship. You get to choose, but you do not get to choose the outcome. Politicians prove this to me every day. Their action was to preserve and protect, help and sanctify, but ends in big arguments. Blame others, sure. You choose. Whatever arguments to go around it is not the narrow path. That is why belief lies in actions and not words. It is what you do, not what you wish for. What is forcing you, if not your own mentality? Knowing that the things you do may be wrong, but you don't want them to be, and make excuses to do them anyway. This applies to me at least, and I don't see it being different for anyone else. Kinda reminds me of Peter Pan and all that, living in a fantasy. You choose that, you get the outcome it gives. Up to you, isn't it? Outside factors being a thing you cannot control, you have to play the hand you've gotten. These are the ones you got, those are the ones they got, you can't steal others. I am not perfect at all(!), mind you, I am not here to point fingers and ''tell you'', I just wanted to share my point of view around this.
“Whatever arguments to go around it is not the narrow path…..That is why belief lies in actions and not words. In other words; ” Faith without works is dead.” - James 2:26
@@Boykot1 I'm not sure what god has to do with this; both myself and Jordan Peterson are atheists. In any case, you can talk about the importance of your mentality, but you don't get to choose your mentality. You don't choose what mentalities compel you, or why they compel you. You don't get to choose how easy it is to adopt particular mentalities, or which ones appear to you. You are entirely a slave to your brain states and the environment you inhabit.
@@ConcedoNulli Agency is not the same thing as free will. Agency is the ability to make models of the future and act in such a way that they come about or do not come about. However, that doesn't tell us whether we were *free* to make those particular models or take those particular actions. In the same way, you can absolutely choose to defy one urge you have, such as the desire to eat when you are hungry, but that still doesn't mean you were free to do so. You were still moved by an inclination which you did not choose to have, nor did you choose to be moved by it.
In the most fundamental extreme it can be best put that we do not posses our minds but it possesses us and we are lead by whatever informs the mind. If therefore we claim to be conscious, that is to be aware and the watcher of our minds, we will be careful enough to plant the right programs that has the better chances of contending with the unmapped territory of the unknown future with courage and security to manifest potentials and possibilities in actuality…this then is participating in moving the society forward and upwards Jacobs ladder. Thank you Jordan Peterson.
Yep that fits in with other teachings that the mind, or ego - the thing we build up over our life experiences to interface with the world around us, is essentially a false self, but it is a part of what makes us human beings. Strip away the mind and the body and the soul - or simply "being" - is still there. And that is what observes the thinking, observes the body's movements and interactions and experiences. And if we can tap into that deeper truer sense of self, and align our choices more with it, then we stop caring so much about outcomes and uncertainties because we are secure in that which is connected to everything, and we gain this deeper knowing that everything that happens to us is meant to build us up and deepen our union with creation and existence. Obviously in Christianity this would be thanks to the Holy Spirit, aka God's Spirit, which He puts in us to erase all obstacles (and thus the mind and its machinations serve as illusory obstacles) between us and Him upon accepting Christ as our savior and king. But I suppose if one wants to avoid that rabbit hole, it's that one learns how to better coexist and unify with all that is.
We are not our “minds?” Most of human history saw the word “mind” as a verb as in “minding the store.” Only after the Enlightenment did the word “mind” become a noun replacing the word “soul.” A great book is The Meaning of Mind by Thomas Szasz. I highly recommend it.
@@64bluegrass Thank you 😊, I’m addicted to books about the mind because of my journey to revolutionize the mind of African youths so we come out of dependence to creativity. I hope you’ll be able to engage in a discuss because I will get the pdf tonight if it’s available👑
@@Raadpensionaris Well, consider this: if I say I’ve “lost my mind,” would that mean I’ve lost my brain? Mind is a metaphor, there is no “mind,” only persons.
Those are literally polar opposites you can't believe in both. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. If we have free will then the future is completely chaotic and has no destination
My current working theory is that God allows us free will, while using His complete mastery of what we call Chaos Theory, able to bring about His goals regardless of our decisions. We also fail (understandably) to see how He operates outside of our linear time. He can tweak any part of the story at any point. It’s because He wants to evoke a response of real love, freely given. Automatons are not fit for purpose.
Any "theory" that includes a god, or anything else supernatural, is a fiction not a theory. Use the evidence you have available, don't make extraordinary claims such as god unless you have extraordinary evidence to back it up.@@elizabethl6187
It does get a bit old hearing that, but making these distinctions early on is important in order to solidify the idea your trying to discuss, especially when we live in a world rampant with post modernist sophists that like to use language in a way that redefines words to fit their worldview when it doesn't align with reality. When you solidify the meaning of words, it makes it that much harder for someone who might disagree with you to engage in motte and bailey type argumentation.
@amibrainwashed I agree with you. My issue with him now is that he can never seem to give a straight answer. I love his psychology work, his lectures on personality, the Big 5 specifically. It was his debates with Sam Harris and recently with the Islamic chap and that meme started kicking about that really made me laugh. It just seems like a cheap evasion tactic to me. I liked when Dawkins called out some of the things he was saying, he even asks him why he keeps jumping from subject to subject. He's no doubt an intelligent and interesting man, but I think evading questions and sometimes changing the definitions of what some words mean is somewhat hypocritical.
The dude is a precious diamond. Protect him at all costs. Society needs more people like him. I could understand (although i don't agree with) someone that feels absolutely unconcerned about what he has to say. But when people attack him, ever single time, they have dark political objectives under their sleeves.
Let me join the chorus here... "Free will" is obviously not something you can touch or put under a microscope. It seems more of a state of consciousness where the individual soul inhabits a state of undetermined possibility. The degree to which we are inhabiting it, I believe only God can observe, but it exists. Otherwise the concept of accountability would be meaningless. I believe this is why the example of faith needing not being of comparatively significant material size (mustard seed) is appropriate. The future is to be met with faith enough to move the direction of a part of your soul that seems so small that you can't even "put your finger on it".
The complete opposite in fact, you must surrender all to God and only then will you experience faith and freedom. If you believe in God I don't understand how you can paradoxically say you have free will and yet God is the alpha and omega. Besides which science has pretty much proven that we only experience things in the past and can only react. As to why God gave us the illusion of free will it's pretty obvious isn't it? Otherwise the experience wouldn't feel very authentic now would it. There is nothing to be accountable for, we are all God and will return, nothing happens on earth or heaven without the will of God, even "evil". Once you understand these things you will know that good and evil don't exist as God has formed everything to our benefit. Our suffering isn't real and neither is our joy. It only is as has been willed. Nothing happens without God's say so isn't that so?
@@theshushu7940 You must have faith before you can surrender to anything. Why would you surrender unless you trusted in the benefit of doing so? What then is the purpose of faith if you are not allowed a measure of freedom to exercise it? Scripture clearly outlines these parameters throughout the writing of all its authors and it is inherent in the propositional nature of the entire biblical record... not to mention being evident in man's natural understanding of himself and the universe. Some of what you are saying is true but it has to be understood with the correct framework. Your presentation is a bit convoluted and means to me that it is still in formation. God is the author of meaning and reality. God is not the creator of evil as evil is not a created thing. It is a state that exists in the absence of righteousness and holiness. It's purpose is in its relevance to our experience and relationship to God. That is as real as it needs to be and so is our experience of it. It clearly has purpose and effect, whether one believes it or not. i think Peterson described the parameters of what we call free will aptly.
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
That’s because accountability is meaningless. Coming from my subjective experience, the mind and brian are not separate they are one in the same. Not trying to change your opinion, I just disagree.
@@insanetubegainthat is true under classical theism. This view of theism was incorporated into christian thought by neo-platonist theologians like Augustine. And it actually aligns very poorly with literal reading of the narrative biblical texts. It also seems to go against the randomness of recent quantum physics (think past 10 years). I’d recommend looking into Open Theism. In my opinion it comports better to the biblical texts and is being vindicated by the most scientific research.
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
@@insanetubegain For long such realities are questioned, where prespective and it's popularity are present within aggregation and of prevalence in instances it's no wonder the prominance such realities hold in our lives. But contrary to your point, ive found an inference we can make within the bible. The bible relies on the fundamental that is context to infer authenticity. Now as the bible says, there mentions that the fact that God never lies and that he's just. As seen in Genesis 18, it tells a time where God was planning to dedtroy the city of Sodom, but then bargained with Abraham to then spare them if 10 righteous people are indeed there, and that absence free will within all holds such great prominece as to be in complete contradictory contrast, de-justifying God's actions, and every pain, suffering, scream, torture, happiness that has ever occured within history. With that reality in mind it's seems that correlation between his omniscience, and our decisions isnt constricted to a single outcome, that he sees the outcome of our every choices and that we indeed are free beings, with free choices.
@@insanetubegain I really do not want to personally attack you but if you actually read the bible you would know Hell is not a place of eternal torture nor is it any place at all. Hell is a state of being, the ultimate death. God creates you, when he creates you, even if he knows you won't live eternally with him, he doesn't just outright kill you, because he values the short mortal life you will have as well. That's the reason he even created you, to live. He only just gives you a choice to live eternally because that's what he thinks you should be able to do. If God is already making a consciousness, I am sure he knew there was a possibility that consciousness might not get along with the idea of eternal life, so instead of eternal life being a default setting, it's a choice. If you don't choose eternal life, you just die once and for all, no such thing as eternal torture.
@@VVooshbait You have apparently never read the Bible. Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19-31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded. Jesus talks about hell more than he talks about heaven, and describes it more vividly. There’s no denying that Jesus knew, believed, and warned about the absolute reality of hell.
What do u see when u wake in your room in the morning? I've honestly seen furniture...... never realised that 'possibility of the day' was right there waiting 4 me to interact with it! That's an eye opener 4 me.
What you "see" is largely determined by your current intentions. Your brain interprets the signals from your eyes and presents you with the elements that are most important to you at that moment. If you are trying to quickly traverse a room, furniture is largely "obstacles between me and the door", perhaps subdivided into "obstacles I have to avoid", "obstacles I can brush out of the way" and "obstacles I can step over".
I assume that's tongue in cheek? Because the first thing I always think of is what my day holds or at least I wonder what is on the schedule for the day. Haven't you ever woke up mulling over something that you know is going to happen that day...eg an outing, an interview, an obligation/deadline?
@@rizdekd3912 what do you think Peterson was thinking when he lost his licence for claiming his training supports denigrating people he doesn't like? I think of BPD, with probably some NPD. Being a white guy with those features, makes it sometimes easier to advance a career.
@@jesipohl6717 "what do you think Peterson was thinking when he lost his licence for claiming his training supports denigrating people he doesn't like?" I would imagine someone losing their license would feel disconcerted and frustrated. He may feel chagrined or angry or like he was unfairly treated. I don't know. But I don't understand how that relates to my comment.
@@rizdekd3912 It could be that but the awesome thing (depending on how you look at it) each person look at the potential and deal with it differently. The younger would probably think about what going in school (class, homework, potential love interest, upcoming date) or adult (work, workload, how to pay the bills) How we tackle each day might be a pattern (clock in, clock out, get paycheck) but others may do that AND try to figure out way to make more money (hopefully legally ;) ) now as for Dr. Peterson losing his license, he said he does not affect him AS much today. He can do talks and streaming like normal.
We operate as though we have free will, even if the universe is deterministic. We dont have perfect knowledge, let alone sufficient limited knowledge. Even if it is merely the story we form to justify deterministic actions, that story is free.
I would add that the more traumatized the person is the less free will they have. trauma rewires the nervous system to be very affected by everything around you rather than having any sort of choice.
@@MichaelWestgatewe can be very reactionary creatures when operating on our instinct to survive. When we feel we are safe, we then can reflect and reason and logic etc.
@@MichaelWestgate But we must consider each individuals level of self-consciousness regarding how their trauma affects them. Some people can look at themselves in the third person and recognize their behavior has changed but others seem less able. We could argue that those who become self-aware weren’t as traumatized in the first place but then we run into the problem of forcing our interpretation on somebody else’s experience. Idk tho
You all are so right and so smart I wish I could hang with you guys. I appreciate your contributions and thinking process. Nice to read and to have been a part of this simple conversation. Thank you. Made my day.
Isn't it interesting how the more people explore finding the truth of life on earth, sanity and ethics that the more attacks come from slave classism owners / controllers and their bribed helpers. Then when the attacks fail they go covert with them as these being exposed publicly shows people the evil control freaks run societies we live in. Finally on another note the amount of making money scams in advertisements online is appaling, annoying and criminal. Showing the extreme greed and lack of honest accountability towards the slavery system helpers while everyone else gets attacked for telling more truth that is a totally incorrect accountability against the decent saner people. Backwards and upside down to morals and ethics finally changing from the saner people pushing back in recent years
I havent been able to find it since, but i remember it being explained as two trains on parallel tracks that exactly run parallel forever no matter which way they turn. One track is free will and one track is determinism. In other words you have free will... But it also so happens that you will make the same choices no matter what.
That's contradictory, if you have free will, you can't make the same choice all the time- if so you're basically an automaton, which makes no sense, if God has already programmed you, the argument will be, what's the point of repenting anyway, if God already knows, whatever you do, you are destined for hell, doesn't make sense at all.
There are concepts that are beyond the scope of this conversation, but to give you a direction to go with I'll say this. Our experience of time is a symptom of our limitations. Our limitations are set because of a need for an all powerful being to desire to k ow himself. Once that desire manifested limitation was created... which in turn manifested everything down to where we are now. Back to time though. Our limitation of experiencing time linearly is only our perception. All time happens at once. Everything that has happened will happen, everything that will happen has happened, as well as all of it is currently happening. This is a concept that takes some dedication to understand as with most metaphysics. These are some things that will help with understanding "free-will" as it is often misdefined therefore misunderstood.
Wondering about free will's existence is actually so stupid it basically proves that it exists. Since it is apparently unprovable, what can it matter? It is clearly profitable for your mentality to believe that you can effect change in the world - put post-modernly, "believe in yourself". To accept anything other makes you not an agent but a tool. So you can embrace toolhood, or simply tell the world you are an agent and in so doing be one. And since we see around us a great body of men and women who are apparently agents, and some who seem to be tools, what shall we say? That all the agents are merely tools too? No. We shall say it as it is. We may choose either role, and in so doing we display the capacity to choose, thus becoming an agent. And so, no tools remain. And the circle continues. Hence, we conclude, we must take the answer at least partially on faith. In the absence of evidence, one may reserve judgement I suppose, but in this case, I think it's fine to just say that you do.
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
@@insanetubegainGod knowing what will happen and God forcing you on that path as in he writes you will do this and you do it are two different things. God has the knowledge of all the possibilities and he knows you're gonna take certain paths based on your free will and IT is written. He does not force you. Big difference
@@kamaltahir6440 People can and do believe things that aren't true. On that fact, I need more than someone's feelings or what some old book says, that needs faith to be believed. In my mind it is being gullible to believe only on feelings and faith. I have never seen or felt anything supernatural and until then I will not be gullible. Besides I read the Bible and if it's true, the God of Abraham is a monster that murders the first born and commits genocide among numerous other atrocities. The god in the Old Testament is the same god of the New Testament.
Free will... Free is unconstrained. Will is the label for one's wanting thoughts, I want to do this, I want to have that, etc. Thus free will is simply unconstrained wants. Why I want what I want is a different and very interesting question. Since the source of all one's conscious thoughts is one's unconscious we have the proximate answer. How one's unconscious becomes stocked is very largely one's experience of culture and it is this experience that constitutes the more distant answer.
People are forced to think and do the types of things that their type of genetics and their types of life experiences program them to think and do throughout their life. Who and how someone happens to be is an extremely unfair unjust lottery that is dependent on what type of genetics that they happen to have and depending on what types of life experiences they happen to have throughout their life.
I agree that perception is reality, totally. Not so long ago i was on a car and i just looked at the streets and i understood that everything i was seeing was amorphous and none-sensical, in modern terms ''absurd''. I understood that i was the interpreter, we are interpreters of that nonesensical reality, and that's our task. Matter shapes the Psyque, Psyque shapes Matter. As above, so below. In free will, a secret determinism. In determinism, a secret free will. I think our free will resides on the capacity to surrender to our task and embrace whatever life throw at us. Free will is an act of love, not of Will to Power. Or may be both, i just know i know nothing.
Perception is not reality. None of this is real. Neither is any form of free will. We do not shape anything, we merely follow the algorithm and experience things. You think surrendering to your task is your choice? It's already been made for you if you accept the truth or not. Even what I say here is already been written and I have no control over this even if I know you are an illusion also and my words are pointless.
Or you might say, free will resides on the capacity to surrender to, and embrace, our purpose. In that regard, we’re free only to the extent that we move toward our purpose. And you could say our purpose is to move toward love - which by doing so we inevitably give glory to God. In contrast, when we’re not surrendering to or embracing what life throws at us, with love, we necessarily move away from our purpose and instead toward a form of enslavement in that we’re stuck dwelling on things which we know are detrimental to our wellbeing. That’s the opposite of freedom - trying to be, or move toward, something that we’re not made for.
Everything we are is defined by what we are not. What we used to be or what we never were. Every choice we make, every outcome we experience is an opportunity to establish what and where we are or to bring into bold relief where we are lacking. To me free will is simply the opportunity to engage in this process of self evaluation and self creation. I see it as a collaborative effort between us and our Creator and serves us both as we engage in the eternal adventure of self realization. To think of it otherwise would make life essentially pointless.
Yeah, but some academic in some university said that the entire universe is deterministic even though they have spent their entire life couped up in a lab... on earth... not even talking to people
Yeah, but some academic in some university said that the entire universe is deterministic even though they have spent their entire life couped up in a lab... on earth... not even talking to people
Yeah, but some academic in some university said that the entire universe is deterministic even though they have spent their entire life couped up in a lab... on earth... not even talking to people
This sort of reminds me of when you have to write an assay at the absolute last minute. You know nothing about the subject but still go around in circles trying to reach the required minimum of words. Some of these are just truisms, some are just uncoherent sentences. "Free Will" was barely mentioned.
It sounded like a load of nonsense to me. "The universe is not deterministic, technically speaking. There isn't any dispute about that." This statement is completely false. We have no evidence to say whether it's deterministic or not. "You're not a clockwork machine. And the reason that we know that is because a clockwork machine can't compute the transforming horizon of the future." This is just meaningless word salad which he doesn't even attempt to explain. Even if the universe isn't deterministic, that in no way implies that free will exists. And that's to say nothing of the fact that nobody has ever come up with any coherent definition of free will, and certainly not Peterson. Free will does not and can not exist because the concept itself is incoherent and self contradictory.
@@fredjimbob2962 free will exists, even if it’s a small amount it exists cuz if it didn’t none of these things in this life would exist. God has given us free will because it’s the only way we can exist as a species
@@Christ60 Ok, well if you believe in the old man in the sky, then you'll believe anything and I guess there's not much point in us discussing free will.
@@fredjimbob2962 I believe what I believe you believe what you believe, but Jesus Christ is realer than all things of this world and he suffered and died for our sakes, was buried and rose again, I wish you a blessed day🩸🙏
Determinism is irrelevant for the concept of free will! Even without determinism a case for free will can't be made logically! It basically boils down to HOW we make a decision: Either there is a reason for why we decided something, i.e. there is a chain of causes and effects that lead to this decision (determinism) or there is no reason for why we decided something, i.e. there was an effect without a cause but that would mean that we are not responsible for the effect! I am aware of how demoralizing this realization can be and want to add something: Although the concept of free will is illogical, we still need to act as if free will exists! It requires us take responsibilities. Without it, I assume, we would be much more likely to just blame the universe for our miserable existence. It was not our decision after all.
Classic example of claiming something without saying much! 👍In case you think that I am conflating the terms responsibility and free will: No I am not! They are obviously not the same but they are related: You can't be responsible for something without a free will. I am interested in feedback/criticism but please be a little bit more clear about what you mean.
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
I find it interesting how, the realization tends to leads to just act like it dose exist. And doesn’t lead to more anti-natallist ways of thinking as it did with my self, because yes, I metaphorically “blame” the universe for our miserable existence and it would be “wrong” of “me” to subject anyone else.
There are several undefined perspectives coming from just this sentence alone, "Whatever you are you're not a deterministic clock," whatever those may be, the sentence seems to describe that indeed objectively you're not something alike or near to a deterministic mechanical structural device technically speaking. It would be great to ask Peterson, "What is technically speaking? Define it." However, Peterson is taking a more literal approach to this: we cannot determine the future like a clock, therefore the future is unpredictable. This might also be a simplistic approach regarding the *literal sense,* PLUS, the fact that human observation will only observe simplicity when complexity isn't specified. "The universe is not deterministic, technically speaking," from the same standpoint, the universe cannot avoid complexity of factors due to our observation. Assuming that 'complexity of factors' implies that we partook in the essential *definition* of the universe. However, that further implies it was inherent for us to observe, but the universe would not take that into consideration at all. Now, the example that Peterson shows actually supposes free will because it proves there can be an abrupt change that you chose to happen, at your will, whether the complexities or simplicities led to that outcome it still then determined a different state of being. Sort of as if I collapsed my worldview. The next point is essentially is nicely put "Reconfigure how you think about the world," then he follows up with, "You don't see objects that are objective," and, "You see patterns that are functional." Us humans truly defy basic stimuli in a sense. I think those concepts can certainly be intuitive as we play the role of observers.
@@derekdurst2146 "NO! It is only "difficult" because it is complicated." I'm not sure who you're responding to, but that's not the only reason we couldn't predict the future based on the current arrangement of matter/energy if, that is, one buys into quantum indeterminacy. IF there is an indeterminate feature of quantum mechanics, it likely means that no matter how much we know about the arrangement of the physical world and the processes, we still could not calculate the future including decisions.
I think my issue is the concept of "free" will. But rather what we can do is a product of where we are and who we are. What we can try to do is without limit, but we can't do everything. Sorta the reverse of everyone can cook from ratatouille. We still have choice. But it's not unrestrained.
As always, you are brilliant Dr. Peterson, but, it is the seeing of you and your bride together that is the real treat for me. Y’all are adorable. Some say adoration ought be reserved for Christ alone. To them I say: Well when a couple, their relationship itself aims at embodying The Logos, how could they NOT be adorable? May God grant you many many many years!!! ✝️☦️✝️
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
Absolutely correct, and if you don't understand, you need to watch a few more times. There's only two "choices" in this world, and he does give choice a very fair representation, but shuts it down with the justification that you ultimately have 2 paths. When you choose to believe there is no good or evil, you have ruined yourself for eternity.
Loving your voice in the world. You inspired me (and I'm sure many tens of thousands more, at least) to be a better person in an ethical way and contribute to the world... much love and respect xx
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
The God of the Bible certainly talks to us as though we have free will. "I have set before you life and death, therefore CHOOSE life, for why would you die?"
What Dr. Peterson describes is the highest good in the natural order. When he says “highest good” one must contextualize it this way. For the highest good, our sanctification, is the ordering of our lives naturally so as to make way for the highest good which is not of the strength of man but of the goodness of God, namely to love.
Still not true in my view. Peterson poses the notion of forward planning as evidence to not being the same as a clockwork machine, but this is a strawman argument because nobody is saying we are like machines. We are, as far as we know, entirely different as we get to experience our existence. But forward planning is an easily explicable function of evolution; you don’t have to work too hard to figure out how that might be the case. His analysis is wrong on another level also: they very plans he nods to as evidence are, by definition, based upon past experience and societal indoctrination that drive us to certain things. You don’t THINK you are hungry, you are hungry. You don’t think you want a Lamborghini, you explain to yourself in your head that you want one, but wanting is a feeling, not a thought, and we don’t, without practice l, decide our feelings. Even when we do, practice itself is an overt, obvious example for programming our biology. You can’t do that unless it is mechanistic.
@@tylerdurden4396 yeah, but when you put so much passion into words and expand your vocabulary people seem to believe all the bullshit you fling at them...
@@AI3Dorinte I guess so. I like JBP by the way and I think his general message (something like take responsibility and aim for the highest good) is a sound one. I just think he tends to misrepresent arguments a little. He’s thrown himself into promoting religion in the last year or so, perhaps because of his loyalty to his wife, but it to the detriment of his own logic. He couldn’t even help bringing it up to this question, and when anybody uses religion as an argument for science the game is up.
@@tylerdurden4396 I used to like JP, not anymore. I sense a fraud each time somebody deliberately uses language that's difficult to understand either by complex vocabulary or by the structure when there's no need to. He's a fraud and when it comes to his general message, please understand that it's a political one, not in the self care category. He is far more interested in changing the culture than helping individuals. Not once have I heard him say that taking responsability is not the pancea for all hardship or mental disease... I bet there's a bunch of suffering people out there beating themselves up because they can't follow JP's advice... Anyways, I have to agree with you 100% on one thing: "when anybody uses religion as an argument for science the game is up" - when this shit happens it's so obvious it stinks...
If we truly had free will, we would all will ourselves to live our best possible lives, yet 99% of the people on this planet are not doing so. We are merely influenced by Good or Evil.
Aristotle said in his Organon that, if there are contingent things, then determinism is false. There are contingent things. Therefore, determinism is false.
Yes Doc! We, humans, are visionaries; constantly and yet unaware of it. In this we are "free" but imprisoned by the idea or false notion of predetermined event. 🎯😲🔥🔥🔥🔥💡
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
I think that it's both free will and predestination at same time. It is because we have some limitations like this human body and circumstances, we know that we lives in particular frequency and we think we have unlimited version of ours but it's not. You have some limitations in it. Just like time is illusion but also it's limited living beings. So yeah we can have free will but without crossing the boundary of our limits because we can't cross. So it's like we already are predestinated at the end we can see overall picture of our life. There are some limited possibility that people think it's free will but it's already programed and destined.
Free will is an illusion. Humans are not uncaused causes. Free will does not exist whether or not determinism is true. If our actions are caused, then our actions are determined and thus no one is free. If our actions are randomly generated, then our actions are not really in our control and thus no one is free. I also take British philosopher Galen Strawson's 'Basic argument' to be correct. Strawson summarizes his argument as follows: "When one acts, one acts in the way one does because of the way one is. So to be truly morally responsible for one’s actions, one would have to be truly responsible for the way one is: one would have to be causa sui, or the cause of oneself, at least in certain crucial mental respects. But nothing can be causa sui - nothing can be the ultimate cause of itself in any respect. So nothing can be truly morally responsible."
To me, free will is defined by mankind being the only part of God's creation that can say "no" to God. We're also the only part of God's creation that can say "yes" to God. We have the power to choose to live a life, eternal with God or a life eternal apart from the presence of God. Freedom to choose is the bedrock of humanities' "free will."
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
@@insanetubegain You just acknowledged there is a God. God allows you to make the decision, He just accepts that decision you made. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Hell was not created for man, but for the devil and his followers: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. God doesn't leave you, you choose to leave Him. Repentance means to change your mind. If it was not possible to change your mind, it would be a lie, and there are three things God cannot do, He cannot lie, He cannot die, and He cannot change. The choice is yours where you spend eternity, not God's.
I was thinking Melbourne, where I saw him wear that suit at least. But then I watched recordings of the other Aussie events, so can’t remember which Q&A was which. Hope he makes it back here!
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
Who, when waking up, considers that he's only facing the 'furniture' in the room? Not even our cat acts like that's all she's considering when she wakes up. She either goes to the door asking to go out or goes through the house to her food dish for a snack and then comes and finds us...wakes us up(if we're sleeping) and makes it clear she wants to go out. Our cat has more presence of mind and considers longer range planning than that answer suggests the people in the room do. I notice he never actually addresses the essential issue of 'free will.' And he shouldn't. Most people feel like and act like they have free will...even those who claim there's no such thing. So we can all satisfy ourselves that we have free will by an act of faith. We, based on faith and just like my cat, proceed with our day as if we're making real decisions that shape our future.
... your cats decisions weren't real? or you just don't care about your cats decisions that much because they'll never affect the rest of the world? hard to see what point you're trying to make here.
Seems to me that all the people who are arguing that they don’t have free will secretly hope not to be fully responsible for their choices. Whether it’s “we’re just chemical reactions” or “I’m just following what it says in the Bible”, it looks like people unwilling to see just how powerful they truly are.
Free will doesn't exist, that doesn't mean that the illusion of it doesn't. If the illusion of free will didn't exist this experience wouldn't be very authentic. It's proven scientifically now that our reality isn't even real, and that our "decisions" are just reactions to what our body does autonomously. If you understand how light and photons work it makes perfect sense.
It’s a pure matter of fact. There cant be free will. Either something is determined or it is random. There is no between. In 2500 years of Philosophy no one ever gave a positive definition of what free will is. So i think, that people, who say that there is no free will, are just intellectually honest and want to face the consequences of reality, but the one who denies it, by ignoring the logical conclusions, is just scared to give up his sacred Freedom: it’s weakness. But nontheless, the ontological question of free will is a matter of fact and not of morals and emotions. Study the matter, before saying your thoughts about it.
We don’t have free will. Everything that will happen can ultimately be determined if you knew the position and trajectory of every particle in the universe. Although we don’t have free will, we choose to do our actions and are fully accountable for them.
"The universe is not deterministic" - citation needed. Also, this ability to speak rapidly for 7 min while mostly saying nothing (at best) so confidently would be impressive even for a politician. Between 2-face over here and all the postmodernist clowns, the humanities departments are definitely not sending their best.
This is beyond your understanding if you think this world is black and white. It’s gray. You wanted a definite answer to a extremely complex analysis. Even you have to know one man cannot fully explain the universe as it came to be along with free will. JP is doing a great job
I appreciate the clarity in your expression. To answer, I believe Dr. Peterson posits that machines solely respond to objects and stimuli. He contends that our distinction from machines lies in two key aspects: firstly, our embodiment of the spirit of God, and secondly, our unique unability to perceive objects but our subjective interpretations of them, which is what we contend with.
Exactly. Philosophers argue abstract version of free-will but that's such a cop out. We are 100% determined, everything that ever will happen is decided.
If you do not have enough time to listen here is the summary: Dr. Peterson is discussing the nature of the future, asserting that it is unpredictable and the universe is not deterministic. The idea is that individuals are not like deterministic clockwork machines, and although there may be some bounds on free will, actions are not entirely predetermined. Dr. Peterson introduces the concept of ballistic movement as a deterministic action but emphasizes that overall, perceptions and actions become less determined as one looks further into the future. The argument challenges the idea of seeing objects as objective and deterministic, suggesting that they are facilitators of symbolic meaning. He emphasizes the importance of confronting the possibility of the day and interacting with the transforming world in a manner that brings about desired ends. The discussion extends to the role of individuals in participating in the creation of the world, drawing parallels to the divine act of shaping chaos and potential into habitable reality. The ethical significance of transforming potential into a habitable order is highlighted as a sign of ethical action.
So glad I listened to my man Rush Limbaugh from the beginning ( RIP) He specifically told his audience long ago that this man is a brilliant glittering gem of wisdom and truth! Little did I know, as I first was introduced to his book 12 rules for life, Rush was Right!!! Now this man is one who I follow closely and learn from him each time I hear him speak!!!
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
@@insanetubegain *"So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you?"* Your problem is that you assume that you have any idea whatever what it means to be hyperdimensional. Any argument based upon a likening of human perception to hyperdimensional perception is illegitimate. *"If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil."* What do you mean --- "evil"?
It is impossible to make any choices other than the ones you ultimately do make. Those choices have been waiting to be made for over 13 billion years. There is no free will.
Free will is available for all who choose to exercise it. I choose not to drink or do drugs. I choose instead to get a good night sleep and be at work on time.
Did you choose your personality which led you to make decisions such as abstaining from using drugs? Or was your personality formed by environmental and biological factors which you had no control over?
@@Dsksea Seeing as how you directed your comment to them, and not their surrounding environment or internal biology, you understand perfectly well already where their personality is formed.
@Milestonemonger Sadly a lot of people think it’s that simple, but it’s not. The other comments here should help you start to understand why it’s not that simple.
He is wrong about this… Inability to predict the future out of our behaviour (as we can with ballistic movement) does not imply that future events are not direct consequences of previous events (determinism). The theory of chaos is probably the best sample of that. We only have an illusion of free will, because it is easier to live that way.
I love Dr. Peterson. Jonathan Edwards answered the question of free will in the 18th century. Some say that if it were the only thing he ever wrote, it alone would be enough to make him the greatest philosopher to ever be born in America.
The title of the work is this: “An Inquiry into the Modern Prevailing Notions of the Freedom of the Will which is Supposed to be Essential to Moral Agency, Virtue and Vice, Reward and Punishment, Praise and Blame” Or simply “Freedom of the Will”
@@jmoore20121992 To be fair, I haven't read his book. However, I am fairly familiar with his more contemporary theological mates, who ascribe to his way of thinking. People like James White, Steve Lawson, John Piper etc.
Here, let me help with this simple high school algebra equation: aX(aX)+bX+c = 0 With just three known variables for a,b, and c, there are two solved states for the value of X (I am not going to write a mathematics textbook in the comments here, consult yours for 'quadratic equations' for more detail) How many variables at the Big Bang? If three variable in a complex equation result in one of two outcomes being true, how many more diversions will the expanding universe take, moment by moment? How many more potentially true states .. and what is the mechanism that determines which of a magnificent array of possible outcomes becomes the reality that we can observe and interact with? Is it .. _consciousness?_ .. So, although the potential solved states for the universe are calculable in theory, all quantities knowable (again, in theory) and everything determined by the patterns established upon creation .. free will is STILL happening. My credentials? I'm just a red neck tree farmer, with a massive library, and way too much free time.
They're not disturbing at all, they just don't make sense to some one like me who has just decided to write this comment. Or maybe it was my neurochemistry or the influence of my ancestors 1 billion years ago that led to this. These are first world problems, when people have too much time on their hands. This thing with no free will, in my mind is on the same level as the universe being a simulation. You can't even prove it. The fact that we are even talking about free will tells me we have free will.
The free will debate continues because most people don't understand causality. Even fully stochastic randomness is causal (we can't know, determine, or acquire the underlying factors, by definition). We feel agency because we're unaware of the subconscious choiceless causes; we don't cause what causes what happens to us. Mathematics itself works because base reality (the universe's 'liquid' of forces and fields) is causal; equations add up and balance because of causality. Otherwise, the continuum flow of one Now to the very next Now wouldn't obey conservation of energy.
You can move your arm continuously, but you can also move your arm moves faster than the time it takes your conscious brain to send signals to your arm. This is clearly the case in fast-moving sports where players train their reflexes to react faster than their brain can consciously make decisions.
A communicator ( father-figure to lonely depressed young men ) that advocates 'sensible life choices', is never going to let people off the hook by saying they can escape their autonomy and self-determination. As Steven Wright once said... "you're just the secretary to your own thoughts" is not a positive enabling tool, for Peterson... in his quest to help people overcome their misery.
I agree with Jordan here but I’ve got an issue with this hand movement example he uses. I’ve seen him use it before. If your hand moves toward a surface and you stop it right before isn’t that predetermined? You know you’re not going to let it hit the surface regardless of how fast your brain sends that signal to stop. Can anyone better explain?
You decided in advance whether your hand was going to strike the table. You could also be wrong, and strike the table by accident. Once your brain initiates the activity, it is outside your conscious control. I think I have quite a lot of free will about where I will be in a month's time. I don't have much control over where I will be a second from now though...
Those who make the case for a lack of free will present their arguments in clear, consice ways; those who hold the opposite views tend to ramble incoherent and unfocused nonesense.
Yes. Cause it's easy to be a depressed loser who wants to take no responsibility for how the world is and our part in shaping it and just drag on with the flow. If you actually want to embrace life you'll find out that it's more complex than you realize. And that's ok. You don't need to understand everything.
@@george.vasilev.reyner1916 Understanding ones lack of free will can cause some people to go down a bad path of laziness, but suffering and wellbeing still exist and are drivers of moral action regardless.
I want free will, but as a physicist, I look at the models we use to describe the universe and I don't see it. What needs to happen to counter this is a mechanism needs to be shown that allows free will. My current hope for this is that consciousness has defied modelling. That leaves room for a non-deterministic process for consciousness. That is what is needed.
Just read Robert Sapolsky’s books there isn’t room. Unfortunately I guess. “It’s asking Neurons to do something they can’t.” I have no degrees or nothing fancy, I was born to poor parents with mental illnesses, and feel (
summing up, deterministic materialism is just wrong because, well it is, and i can waive my arm and stop suddenly and my analogy about life being a play is right because look at my beautiful interpretation of the bible.
current brain science about perception and how we process vision and other inputs indicates the immateriality of “solid objects”. It’s a quantum problem.
It’s a whole lot of deepities. And BTW, being deterministic is not the same as being predictable. One is about following the laws of physics, the other is about whether it can be simulated. The universe can be both deterministic and unpredictable.
Very well articulated and makes perfect sense of what it is to be put into being through a cosmic divinity that manifests truth into reality and rightful meaning into purpose. I thoroughly enjoyed watching this to ascertain even more knowledge on the matter. Thanks for this great video
Good one! Actually either way, that's a paradox, if you had a choice to be determined, your very choice leads to something which cannot be free, which means God is controlling your every thought and action, better to have a choice in the sense of not choosing to be determined, but in fact, if you want, God can make you determined.
As a Canadian with, I hope a British background, you should know "Free Will Exists". Predestination is an Eastern non Druidic ideological construct. That is why our systems are so different.
Being unable to predict what's going to happen doesn't make it any less determined. Everything is set in stone. The past, present, and future are all locations that exist at once. The universe is like an object that we experience. Our conscious experience travels through spacetime like a train on a track. We only have the illusion of being able to choose the direction we go. There is no free will. If it makes you feel better to imagine yourself as being free, or if it helps you make better decisions, by all means pretend. But ultimately everything is just cause and effect, with you caught in the middle. I think Jordan's religiosity gets in the way of him seeing this.
It is not 100% known whether absolute determinism exists as far as I know; however, the alternative is randomness, which would't make free will real. In my opinion, the concept of free will itself makes no sense.
Is that just a cop-out way of thinking though, kinda like defeatism? It's harder to will the better good than give in to the easier choice...But doing so far more rewarding
@@reb3799 I see your point. Let me clarify: When thinking about how the universe works on a fundamental level, it either has structure / causality / logic, which would make it deterministic, or there is no structure, aka randomness. It could also be partly deterministic and partly random, which seems to be the most likely, as far as I know. Free will then is a whole ’nother topic. It is already hard to define it. As far as I consider, what is meant by it is the power over decisions an individual has. But looking at it from the outside and in the context of the universe, it makes no sense and is more of a feeling than a logical construct.
We have will as bounded by the laws that restrain it. The question that is primary is who established the laws? Secondary, is that if there is an authority that established and maintains the laws bounding will, what are those laws? Intellectual, emotional, moral, ethical, physical, and spiritual…
Now one must ask, what are the consequences of breaking the laws. If it is the law of gravity you reject, you fall to your death. If it is the law of morality you reject you fall to hell. This is why Christ came to connect the laws, the lawmaker and those bound by the law, because we have all sinned, transgressing His law. Christ offers those who chose Him, forgiveness of the transgressions of things that are bounded as good vs evil. We are gifted by grace the ability to express our will to accept or reject the offer of redemption from our transgressions of Gods moral law.
One of the best speeches JBP has ever given, definitely. Whenever anyone tries to explain God using logic it falls flat, because that's an impossible task, thus destined to fail no matter how smart you are. It's the foundations of the religious world view that can be (and should be) explained to the modern man who has forgotten their true meaning.
A child born into a poor family is not predetermined to remain poor. A child that is born into a wealthy family is not destined to remain rich. They each make choices and have influences which help them arrive at different ends that those at which they began.
That’s only looking at edge cases (outlines) honing in on the 100 or so million. Completely discounting, a much larger data set, also determinism doesn’t mean predetermined, that’s fatalism.
Premises for free will: P1: You're not physically constrictet from doing an action P2: You're not externally forced to to do that action P3: The willingness to to that action stems from your true values. E.g.: your views weren't twisted from being a cult member for the past ten years P4: Your true values are of your own choosing Problem is: they never are Why? Your values are shaped by your genetics and your environment. None of these are of your own choosing. Meaning even with P1, P2 & P3 fulfilled, you still don't truly "own" P4. Some people like to pull the uncertainty principle from quantum mechanics, but that doesn't solve anything. For that which is uncertain (random) is by definition not in your control. No; we can't precisely predict anything, really, but that doesn't undermine the fact that the thing that happened, was the only possible thing to happen, because it's the only thing that DID happen. Please discuss with me below. I'm very intrigued by this question, but don't believe Dr. Peterson provided a satisfying response to the issue posed in the video.
Mate he doesn't have free will according to you people, and neither do you. Just 2 brains judging each other. I wonder what millions of years of events happend that led to you making this comment. With out your choice ofcourse. You people believe your brain is separate from you and that it decides things for you. Just come out and say it, some people don't like to take responsibility for their lives. It's completely acceptable
Just because you cannot check everyone's genitalia at the door, doesn't mean that they aren't - as a matter of fact, a man or a woman. Likewise, just because you can't antecipate the future, doesn't mean that it can't be predetermined.
Dr. Petersen presents some very interesting points. Certainly, our machines are engineered to be deterministic. They are characterized by the deterministic theory that defines them. We operate them within a specific domain so they remain predictable. Science also deals with deterministic systems. The key quality of a scientific theory, what makes them valuable, is they predict the future. Not all components of deterministic systems are predictable, the motion of a molecule in a gas, for example. An indeterministic system may include deterministic components, the human heart, for example. Thus, most deterministic systems have indeterministic aspects and vis versa. The question is, what do we mean by "free". I think we mean a thing is free if it is, in principle, unpredictable. The question is, how can we know that something is, in principle, unpredictable .
Developing a model to predict something does not mean it doesn’t exist. Daniel Dennett also argued that consciousness and qualia are mere illusions simply because they can be modeled. Your model is never more real than the subject it’s intended to model. It provides a degree of predictive utility, but even then we never assert absolute certainty. The idea of free will being inherently unpredictable is a far fetched assumption, you won’t even find that in the most fundamental religious notions of free will. In fact, in Christian theology, the very idea of time is not linear, as though each moment exists simultaneously. The fact that a future event may already exist, does not remove the existence of one’s will in that moment.
We could be composed of deterministic mechanisms that are tuned to optimize our response to a variety of environments. Just because we are adaptable doesn't mean it's not deterministic.
"Through lack of any true understanding, materialists denounce God; or may otherwise condemn Him for all the ills of the world, never recognizing man's responsibility, through misuse of free choice, for his own miseries.”
We have functional free will, not absolute free will. Functional free will acknowledges physical and material restrictions on personal volition. Absolute free will would mean the choice to be happy or choose to lower our heart rate.
There is an old saying that Nine tenths of wisdom consists in being wise in time. End quote. Time limits are one of the greatest compulsive factors behind every choice. You cannot deliberate for the next 4 weeks about what you will eat tomorrow.
It's worth adding that this comes from a first person psychological perspective as opposed to a third person perspective. Both are valid though I think Peterson wants to argue the former is more real and more important, which is fine, but we should acknowledge that determinism often comes from that third person POV (and that agency is not necessarily undermined from determinism)
I disagree with his wording. He seems to use "clockwork machine" as a means of being reductive towards the deterministic argument. Just because it might not be a trivial "machine" that doesn't disprove the universe being deterministic. I think it is deterministic, it's just a matter of complexity that we cannot currently comprehend or analyse.
We have free will, and we can reunite our will with the will of God. Once our desires are the same as God's desires, it is somewhat "losing" free will, Thats the reason why God requires faith from believers. He would never direct someone without consenting. Faith is required from us because God wants us to trust Him.
Everything is deterministic and it's indisputable, because of only one fact. Either things are happening far away in the universe or here on Earth, in the present or in the visions of future, - none of these events, beings, objects can do something and do the other thing simultaneously. This means, that whatever we do as an act of free will, it is not free will, because we couldn't have done the action any other way. Because the state we were in at that time had exactly the information we needed to decide what we are going to do. Only after a fact we can look back and think "oh, we could have done something better". No we couldn't. There was no other way other than what we choose to do at the time of action. And this is true for anything around us, even movement of fire and galaxies forming are following the deterministic movement, because it's just impossible to do anything else in the present conditions only the thing those conditions produce.
You can think that overthinking things is an act of free will. But no. This Jordan Peterson interview was predetermined by the conditions at the time, his choice to participate, his process of deciding if he should go there, organizers inviting Jordan. Even the contemplation itself and the train of thought and discussion is a part of deterministic nature. Determinism is impossible to challenge. It comes before free will arguments.
Accepting determinism helps people to relax and stress less, but some people might become nihilistic, so i think it's advisable to have some belief in a free will.
This is wrong. This is perhaps one of the few areas in which I strongly disagree with Dr. Peterson. Whether the universe is deterministic (a fact that is, btw, not at all refuted since there are so many physicists and scientists in general who do think we live in a deterministic universe, given even the complexities and randomness of the quantum world) or random, free will cannot exist. Either the universe is deterministic and causally oriented (how can we predict, then, the movements of cosmic bodies hundreds of years into the future is the universe is not working like a clockwork machine? More accurate would it be to say that on the macro-level there is determinism at play and on the micro-level, sub-atomic, there seems to be randomness at work), or it is random, or a combination if both, and none of these options provide the necessary framework for a universe in which free will can possibly exist. Jordan then delves into the way people live their lives, diving into territory akin to the practical implications of a society which doesn't believe in free will. That has nothing to do with the question of free will's existence now, does it? One is a question of whether it exists, and the other an issue of should we act in accordance with the answer.
While it is true that we cant predict a single flip of a coin we have a good idea what a thousand flips of a coin will be. We certainly cant look at a molicule of a radioactive substance will decay yet we can with great accuracy measure the rate of decay of an ounce of radioactive substance. So i am glad thathe is open to a determanistic world with some random features. He probably is open to free will on some moral grounds.
In my opinion the concept of free will is motivated by believers to try to solve the problem of evil and hell. That explains the dramatic and hypnotic appearance of this video.
Oddly enough I believe this is where our biggest issue with general intelligence systems resides. On some fundamental level, all knowledge is arbitrary. As Peterson describes, you see "patterns that are functional." The object itself doesn't exist, not really. The term and label and associations are all constructed and cemented in our minds. This pattern continues all the way up the chain into language itself, which itself is only a system of pattern recognition but a great example of what he's talking about. The function of language only exists because we ultimately decide an arbitrary meaning associated with a word, and then use that meaning in contexts (read: another level of abstraction but pattern recognition on arbitrary definitions all the same) to build further. So in AI systems like GPT, the system requires a human-coached weighting system to even function. Because it's designed only to mathematically predict the next relevant word based on statistical probability of relation. But context changes these probabilities dramatically. This is where the weighting comes in. But it doesn't inherently know what these different contexts are, because these different contexts are arbitrary. They're decided by us, and it's only trying to mimic us. Or more specifically act as though it's mimicking us. It doesn't actually understand what it's doing. It doesn't actually know the context. It can't determine for itself what an appropriate likelihood is of a word being related because it doesn't have the sub-structure of layers and layers of context patterns that it's using to modify its weights on the fly. And if we were to try to simply retrofit GPT with the ability to adjust its weights, it'd go off the rails entirely. I say all of this to circle back on the original point -- the functional patterns appear deterministic. But it's where I believe the real breakthrough lies. It's in what we do on a functional level that is so subconscious we don't even give it thought, so it remains invisible to us. And in that way, we can't even begin to engineer a system that behaves like it, because it's invisible to us. But if we could algorithmically reproduce a model for an entire dynamic decision making process, just represented logically with patterns, we'd have a starting point. Our current model, however, totally disregards this approach entirely.
I have always felt as though reality is not one or the other, but rather a mixture of both determinism and free will. I love how he essentially explained it as "The further out into the future you look, the more free will you see, and the closer things get the more deterministic they become."
I see it more like one of those story books where you read a chapter then it says something like "if you open the door go to page 12, if you run away go to page 47". We have free will in the moment, but all of the possibilities are already written. It's like how a video game can have multiple endings depending on player choice. That's how I respond when people say "if you believe in predeterminism why do you look before crossing the road?". Because free will is both real _and_ non-existent. It's the illusion of choice.
Without God we cannot see anything
Free will doesn't exist. Only free experience
@@theshushu7940if true, then you can never ethically justify punishing someone for their actions, or holding them to account for anything.
@@blumousey Exactly. You might think you're holding someone accountable but it was always going to happen regardless of what you think you decide. Your experiences good or bad are just that. We must have the illusion of free will for the experience to be authentic. Even what I write is no decision of my own, I made a mistake and it wiped out my whole message, that was not coincidence either. Sorry but the other point is that holding someone accountable is part of the illusion and will happen or not regardless of what you think about the situation.
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"
don’t agree with all of their ideas, but love rush ✌️
The philosophers that predated Jordan Petersen…. Rush
That doesn't mean that's your choice though does it. It's just your mind going "oh yea i seem to be going in this direction so guess i'll make my choice to go this direction." You get it? If you understand light it all makes more sense, we're literally only seeing and experiencing the past.
@@theshushu7940 "That doesn't mean that's your choice though does it."
It does. Because choice by definition means the power to select A or B, or XYZ. If you have the power, the only other remaining variable is the will. If you chose the path A, means you had the power to do so, and it was your will to do so.
@@alterego157 False. You didn't create or have any control over the framework in which so called "decisions" emerge. This is evident in people who are intoxicated, mentally impaired, brain damaged or under general anesthetic.
“Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.”
Viktor E. Frankl
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
In that space would only be space. Time ….. would really be “in that time is how we choose to power our response”
I took this to heart. Woke up, got up and stubbed my bloody toe on the furniture. So much for that theory!!
Well if you had just cleaned your room.....
@@petersc1000 🤣👍
When he starts with “the universe is not deterministic, there isn’t any dispute about that”, how am I supposed to take the rest seriously? I see people dispute that claim all the time.
Of course the universe is deterministic lol, anything else implies magic somehow magically outside a the cause and effect chain.
@@plotofland2928 If all things are within a cause and effect chain then the universe itself makes no sense to me. Where is the terminus? "Always was" doesn't fit within a cause and effect chain.
It's irrelevant whether the universe is deterministic or indeterministic. Indeterminism doesn't result in free will. As opposed to choices being determined then choices becomes random.
However, the belief that your choices are determined and that you can't will things, whether or not it's true, results in worse outcomes. Some Christians believe even your very willpower to do the right thing is through the grace of god. Some are destined for hell and others destined for heaven. You're an observer of a piece of art that you're a part of.
@@Sam-d7m8w I mostly agree with you, especially the last paragraph.
The universe seems to work by cause and effect although that does sort of imply that there was a "beginning" to this process which doesn't really make sense.
Indeterminism doesn't result in free will but does indeterminism really exist anyway? If the world is indeterministic, that can only mean that certain things are random but does randomness actually exist or is it just unexplained or not yet understood cause and effect? Take rolling a dice: The result is not random, it is just influenced by so many factors that humans playing monopoly or Yahtzee cannot predict or control these factors. Randomness on an absolute true level does not make any sense. It is akin to magic.
@@plotofland2928 Some things are determined since from moment to moment we experience them. In the domain of consciousness there may be randomness influencing our decisions. He's generally right about us not being like a clockwork machine. We have qualities that are very different. E.g color perception. Just as we can't describe color yet it's an ability we have. We can train a robot to detect a certain wavelength and call it blue but the robot wouldn't necessarily experience what we experience. It's detecting a quantity not experiencing a quality.
None of that would escape the dichotomy of determinacy or indeterminacy both of which don't allow for "free will" in some sense of the word. Indeterminacy maybe gets closer to "free" as in unrestrained but when people say "free will" they mean ultimately as an agent "they" decide. Not because of a random number generator or a script written by god.
He knows all this though. He also knows that people tend to function more poorly when they believe they lack autonomy in the ultimate sense. Especially stupid people. I think so much of what he says is a kind of paternalism for stupid people.
@@Sam-d7m8wSo acceptance of truth depends on your convenience. Well that explains a lot about Christian conservatives and JP fans.
Who cares about the truth? We will believe whatever is good for us. No matter how immoral and false it is.
Pretty much everything he said can be true, that still doesn't get us to free will. Seems like he's addressing something fundamentally different than what most people define as "the ability to have done otherwise".
You choose if you want to walk with god, nothing is forcing you, not even god.
Many argue that it is forced, and have a lot of different arguments about why.
What he explains is that nothing you do is as pre-determined and controlled as 'something without free will'.
Like any type of machine, a clock or an engine. They are forced to do that, no way around it, if so, it breaks.
Arguments common here is that it's indirectly forced, being that you can't do whatever you want and still get to paradise/heaven.
If you dont want God as you friend, it would be foolish of him to force you to be that, wouldn't it?
It is pretty complex in of itself, but this is basically what it is all about.
You'd be a resentful friend, not a good friendship.
You get to choose, but you do not get to choose the outcome.
Politicians prove this to me every day.
Their action was to preserve and protect, help and sanctify, but ends in big arguments.
Blame others, sure.
You choose.
Whatever arguments to go around it is not the narrow path.
That is why belief lies in actions and not words.
It is what you do, not what you wish for.
What is forcing you, if not your own mentality?
Knowing that the things you do may be wrong, but you don't want them to be, and make excuses to do them anyway.
This applies to me at least, and I don't see it being different for anyone else.
Kinda reminds me of Peter Pan and all that, living in a fantasy.
You choose that, you get the outcome it gives.
Up to you, isn't it?
Outside factors being a thing you cannot control, you have to play the hand you've gotten.
These are the ones you got, those are the ones they got, you can't steal others.
I am not perfect at all(!), mind you, I am not here to point fingers and ''tell you'', I just wanted to share my point of view around this.
“Whatever arguments to go around it is not the narrow path…..That is why belief lies in actions and not words. In other words; ” Faith without works is dead.” - James 2:26
@@Boykot1 I'm not sure what god has to do with this; both myself and Jordan Peterson are atheists.
In any case, you can talk about the importance of your mentality, but you don't get to choose your mentality. You don't choose what mentalities compel you, or why they compel you. You don't get to choose how easy it is to adopt particular mentalities, or which ones appear to you. You are entirely a slave to your brain states and the environment you inhabit.
@@ConcedoNulli Agency is not the same thing as free will. Agency is the ability to make models of the future and act in such a way that they come about or do not come about. However, that doesn't tell us whether we were *free* to make those particular models or take those particular actions.
In the same way, you can absolutely choose to defy one urge you have, such as the desire to eat when you are hungry, but that still doesn't mean you were free to do so. You were still moved by an inclination which you did not choose to have, nor did you choose to be moved by it.
You've only proven that what you're calling free will is merely an illusion.@@ConcedoNulli
In the most fundamental extreme it can be best put that we do not posses our minds but it possesses us and we are lead by whatever informs the mind.
If therefore we claim to be conscious, that is to be aware and the watcher of our minds, we will be careful enough to plant the right programs that has the better chances of contending with the unmapped territory of the unknown future with courage and security to manifest potentials and possibilities in actuality…this then is participating in moving the society forward and upwards Jacobs ladder.
Thank you Jordan Peterson.
Yep that fits in with other teachings that the mind, or ego - the thing we build up over our life experiences to interface with the world around us, is essentially a false self, but it is a part of what makes us human beings. Strip away the mind and the body and the soul - or simply "being" - is still there. And that is what observes the thinking, observes the body's movements and interactions and experiences. And if we can tap into that deeper truer sense of self, and align our choices more with it, then we stop caring so much about outcomes and uncertainties because we are secure in that which is connected to everything, and we gain this deeper knowing that everything that happens to us is meant to build us up and deepen our union with creation and existence. Obviously in Christianity this would be thanks to the Holy Spirit, aka God's Spirit, which He puts in us to erase all obstacles (and thus the mind and its machinations serve as illusory obstacles) between us and Him upon accepting Christ as our savior and king. But I suppose if one wants to avoid that rabbit hole, it's that one learns how to better coexist and unify with all that is.
We are not our “minds?” Most of human history saw the word “mind” as a verb as in “minding the store.” Only after the Enlightenment did the word “mind” become a noun replacing the word “soul.” A great book is The Meaning of Mind by Thomas Szasz. I highly recommend it.
@@64bluegrass We are pur brain
@@64bluegrass Thank you 😊,
I’m addicted to books about the mind because of my journey to revolutionize the mind of African youths so we come out of dependence to creativity.
I hope you’ll be able to engage in a discuss because I will get the pdf tonight if it’s available👑
@@Raadpensionaris Well, consider this: if I say I’ve “lost my mind,” would that mean I’ve lost my brain? Mind is a metaphor, there is no “mind,” only persons.
I believe that it is both Freewill and Predestination at the same time. Humans have no idea how this can be.
Or maybe, we haven't figured out a way to express it soundly just quite yet.
Sneezing is not free will. Using my hand or handkerchief or not, is the free part (albeit socially influenced)
Those are literally polar opposites you can't believe in both. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. If we have free will then the future is completely chaotic and has no destination
My current working theory is that God allows us free will, while using His complete mastery of what we call Chaos Theory, able to bring about His goals regardless of our decisions.
We also fail (understandably) to see how He operates outside of our linear time. He can tweak any part of the story at any point.
It’s because He wants to evoke a response of real love, freely given. Automatons are not fit for purpose.
Any "theory" that includes a god, or anything else supernatural, is a fiction not a theory. Use the evidence you have available, don't make extraordinary claims such as god unless you have extraordinary evidence to back it up.@@elizabethl6187
'Well, it depends on what you mean by 'free' and what you mean by 'will' 😂😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
Well, it does depend on those things…
@Messianic-Gentile 🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂 it's such a JP sentence
It does get a bit old hearing that, but making these distinctions early on is important in order to solidify the idea your trying to discuss, especially when we live in a world rampant with post modernist sophists that like to use language in a way that redefines words to fit their worldview when it doesn't align with reality. When you solidify the meaning of words, it makes it that much harder for someone who might disagree with you to engage in motte and bailey type argumentation.
@amibrainwashed I agree with you. My issue with him now is that he can never seem to give a straight answer. I love his psychology work, his lectures on personality, the Big 5 specifically. It was his debates with Sam Harris and recently with the Islamic chap and that meme started kicking about that really made me laugh. It just seems like a cheap evasion tactic to me. I liked when Dawkins called out some of the things he was saying, he even asks him why he keeps jumping from subject to subject. He's no doubt an intelligent and interesting man, but I think evading questions and sometimes changing the definitions of what some words mean is somewhat hypocritical.
I@@Simon53188I see ur profile pic. Do you watch the punisher?
The dude is a precious diamond. Protect him at all costs. Society needs more people like him. I could understand (although i don't agree with) someone that feels absolutely unconcerned about what he has to say. But when people attack him, ever single time, they have dark political objectives under their sleeves.
No, they attack him when he is wrong and he usually is.
@@michaelwright8896no he's not. But people can be wrong he's not god but he still makes a lot of sense.
@@narendrasomawat5978 He is usually wrong.
@@narendrasomawat5978he's so wrong he lost his licence to practice therapy trying to claim torture in therapy was OK.
^That wasn't why he lost his license(*), lol
Let me join the chorus here...
"Free will" is obviously not something you can touch or put under a microscope. It seems more of a state of consciousness where the individual soul inhabits a state of undetermined possibility. The degree to which we are inhabiting it, I believe only God can observe, but it exists. Otherwise the concept of accountability would be meaningless.
I believe this is why the example of faith needing not being of comparatively significant material size (mustard seed) is appropriate. The future is to be met with faith enough to move the direction of a part of your soul that seems so small that you can't even "put your finger on it".
The complete opposite in fact, you must surrender all to God and only then will you experience faith and freedom. If you believe in God I don't understand how you can paradoxically say you have free will and yet God is the alpha and omega. Besides which science has pretty much proven that we only experience things in the past and can only react. As to why God gave us the illusion of free will it's pretty obvious isn't it? Otherwise the experience wouldn't feel very authentic now would it. There is nothing to be accountable for, we are all God and will return, nothing happens on earth or heaven without the will of God, even "evil". Once you understand these things you will know that good and evil don't exist as God has formed everything to our benefit. Our suffering isn't real and neither is our joy. It only is as has been willed. Nothing happens without God's say so isn't that so?
@@theshushu7940 You must have faith before you can surrender to anything. Why would you surrender unless you trusted in the benefit of doing so? What then is the purpose of faith if you are not allowed a measure of freedom to exercise it? Scripture clearly outlines these parameters throughout the writing of all its authors and it is inherent in the propositional nature of the entire biblical record... not to mention being evident in man's natural understanding of himself and the universe.
Some of what you are saying is true but it has to be understood with the correct framework. Your presentation is a bit convoluted and means to me that it is still in formation. God is the author of meaning and reality. God is not the creator of evil as evil is not a created thing. It is a state that exists in the absence of righteousness and holiness. It's purpose is in its relevance to our experience and relationship to God. That is as real as it needs to be and so is our experience of it. It clearly has purpose and effect, whether one believes it or not.
i think Peterson described the parameters of what we call free will aptly.
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
That’s because accountability is meaningless. Coming from my subjective experience, the mind and brian are not separate they are one in the same. Not trying to change your opinion, I just disagree.
@@insanetubegainthat is true under classical theism. This view of theism was incorporated into christian thought by neo-platonist theologians like Augustine. And it actually aligns very poorly with literal reading of the narrative biblical texts. It also seems to go against the randomness of recent quantum physics (think past 10 years). I’d recommend looking into Open Theism. In my opinion it comports better to the biblical texts and is being vindicated by the most scientific research.
You absolutely Chushed it!
Best answer Ever!
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
@@insanetubegain For long such realities are questioned, where prespective and it's popularity are present within aggregation and of prevalence in instances it's no wonder the prominance such realities hold in our lives. But contrary to your point, ive found an inference we can make within the bible. The bible relies on the fundamental that is context to infer authenticity. Now as the bible says, there mentions that the fact that God never lies and that he's just. As seen in Genesis 18, it tells a time where God was planning to dedtroy the city of Sodom, but then bargained with Abraham to then spare them if 10 righteous people are indeed there, and that absence free will within all holds such great prominece as to be in complete contradictory contrast, de-justifying God's actions, and every pain, suffering, scream, torture, happiness that has ever occured within history. With that reality in mind it's seems that correlation between his omniscience, and our decisions isnt constricted to a single outcome, that he sees the outcome of our every choices and that we indeed are free beings, with free choices.
@@insanetubegain I really do not want to personally attack you but if you actually read the bible you would know Hell is not a place of eternal torture nor is it any place at all. Hell is a state of being, the ultimate death. God creates you, when he creates you, even if he knows you won't live eternally with him, he doesn't just outright kill you, because he values the short mortal life you will have as well. That's the reason he even created you, to live. He only just gives you a choice to live eternally because that's what he thinks you should be able to do.
If God is already making a consciousness, I am sure he knew there was a possibility that consciousness might not get along with the idea of eternal life, so instead of eternal life being a default setting, it's a choice. If you don't choose eternal life, you just die once and for all, no such thing as eternal torture.
@@VVooshbait You have apparently never read the Bible. Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19-31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded. Jesus talks about hell more than he talks about heaven, and describes it more vividly. There’s no denying that Jesus knew, believed, and warned about the absolute reality of hell.
What do u see when u wake in your room in the morning? I've honestly seen furniture...... never realised that 'possibility of the day' was right there waiting 4 me to interact with it! That's an eye opener 4 me.
What you "see" is largely determined by your current intentions. Your brain interprets the signals from your eyes and presents you with the elements that are most important to you at that moment. If you are trying to quickly traverse a room, furniture is largely "obstacles between me and the door", perhaps subdivided into "obstacles I have to avoid", "obstacles I can brush out of the way" and "obstacles I can step over".
I assume that's tongue in cheek? Because the first thing I always think of is what my day holds or at least I wonder what is on the schedule for the day. Haven't you ever woke up mulling over something that you know is going to happen that day...eg an outing, an interview, an obligation/deadline?
@@rizdekd3912 what do you think Peterson was thinking when he lost his licence for claiming his training supports denigrating people he doesn't like?
I think of BPD, with probably some NPD. Being a white guy with those features, makes it sometimes easier to advance a career.
@@jesipohl6717 "what do you think Peterson was thinking when he lost his licence for claiming his training supports denigrating people he doesn't like?"
I would imagine someone losing their license would feel disconcerted and frustrated. He may feel chagrined or angry or like he was unfairly treated. I don't know. But I don't understand how that relates to my comment.
@@rizdekd3912 It could be that but the awesome thing (depending on how you look at it) each person look at the potential and deal with it differently. The younger would probably think about what going in school (class, homework, potential love interest, upcoming date) or adult (work, workload, how to pay the bills)
How we tackle each day might be a pattern (clock in, clock out, get paycheck) but others may do that AND try to figure out way to make more money (hopefully legally ;) )
now as for Dr. Peterson losing his license, he said he does not affect him AS much today. He can do talks and streaming like normal.
We operate as though we have free will, even if the universe is deterministic. We dont have perfect knowledge, let alone sufficient limited knowledge. Even if it is merely the story we form to justify deterministic actions, that story is free.
The universe isn't deterministic either lol
@@pyros4333 maybe re-read what I said.
It is, we just can never know what is determined infinitely. So free will is like money, it exist but conventionally@@pyros4333
@@arrgylerawrgyle3784 no I rather not. My universe is free of your will
The only reason we can’t predict every event in every place at any time is insufficient knowledge
*BEST ADVISE I EVER HEARD:*
*"DON'T LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF FOOLS, LISTEN TO THE GREAT MASTERS"*
Well, there is only one master. This idea that there are masters takes away from the rightful master. The one true God.
I have another deep advice for you: always do the right thing. And never do the wrong thing. You're welcome. 😊
@@adayah2933Think that's called having integrated. Doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do.
Fools believe what they think,not what they see
The wise believe what they see not what they think. Huang Po
4:00 "you are not a clockwork machine driven by stimulus"
I think the less conscious a person is the more that person is driven by stimuli
It may be the case but every human being is conscious to some degree.
I would add that the more traumatized the person is the less free will they have. trauma rewires the nervous system to be very affected by everything around you rather than having any sort of choice.
@@MichaelWestgatewe can be very reactionary creatures when operating on our instinct to survive. When we feel we are safe, we then can reflect and reason and logic etc.
@@MichaelWestgate But we must consider each individuals level of self-consciousness regarding how their trauma affects them. Some people can look at themselves in the third person and recognize their behavior has changed but others seem less able.
We could argue that those who become self-aware weren’t as traumatized in the first place but then we run into the problem of forcing our interpretation on somebody else’s experience. Idk tho
You all are so right and so smart I wish I could hang with you guys. I appreciate your contributions and thinking process. Nice to read and to have been a part of this simple conversation. Thank you. Made my day.
I'm grateful for you doc! You've helped me hone my moral compass on truth. We love you brother. Stay the course!
Isn't it interesting how the more people explore finding the truth of life on earth, sanity and ethics that the more attacks come from slave classism owners / controllers and their bribed helpers. Then when the attacks fail they go covert with them as these being exposed publicly shows people the evil control freaks run societies we live in.
Finally on another note the amount of making money scams in advertisements online is appaling, annoying and criminal. Showing the extreme greed and lack of honest accountability towards the slavery system helpers while everyone else gets attacked for telling more truth that is a totally incorrect accountability against the decent saner people. Backwards and upside down to morals and ethics finally changing from the saner people pushing back in recent years
Oooof. this comment is reminds me of a creationist telling his preacher how much they love him for revealing the truth of jesus lol.
@@fullyawakened nail on head
@@fullyawakened Ooooof. This reply's false equivalence is a biiiig yikes.
@@AppleOfThineEye apologies if that straight forward analogy was way over your head lmao
I havent been able to find it since, but i remember it being explained as two trains on parallel tracks that exactly run parallel forever no matter which way they turn. One track is free will and one track is determinism.
In other words you have free will... But it also so happens that you will make the same choices no matter what.
That's contradictory, if you have free will, you can't make the same choice all the time- if so you're basically an automaton, which makes no sense, if God has already programmed you, the argument will be, what's the point of repenting anyway, if God already knows, whatever you do, you are destined for hell, doesn't make sense at all.
@@pauljohnson6019 I think it was said best when God was talking with Bender
There are concepts that are beyond the scope of this conversation, but to give you a direction to go with I'll say this.
Our experience of time is a symptom of our limitations. Our limitations are set because of a need for an all powerful being to desire to k ow himself. Once that desire manifested limitation was created... which in turn manifested everything down to where we are now.
Back to time though. Our limitation of experiencing time linearly is only our perception. All time happens at once. Everything that has happened will happen, everything that will happen has happened, as well as all of it is currently happening. This is a concept that takes some dedication to understand as with most metaphysics.
These are some things that will help with understanding "free-will" as it is often misdefined therefore misunderstood.
Wondering about free will's existence is actually so stupid it basically proves that it exists. Since it is apparently unprovable, what can it matter? It is clearly profitable for your mentality to believe that you can effect change in the world - put post-modernly, "believe in yourself". To accept anything other makes you not an agent but a tool.
So you can embrace toolhood, or simply tell the world you are an agent and in so doing be one. And since we see around us a great body of men and women who are apparently agents, and some who seem to be tools, what shall we say? That all the agents are merely tools too? No. We shall say it as it is. We may choose either role, and in so doing we display the capacity to choose, thus becoming an agent. And so, no tools remain. And the circle continues. Hence, we conclude, we must take the answer at least partially on faith. In the absence of evidence, one may reserve judgement I suppose, but in this case, I think it's fine to just say that you do.
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
@@insanetubegainGod knowing what will happen and God forcing you on that path as in he writes you will do this and you do it are two different things. God has the knowledge of all the possibilities and he knows you're gonna take certain paths based on your free will and IT is written. He does not force you. Big difference
@@kamaltahir6440 People can and do believe things that aren't true. On that fact, I need more than someone's feelings or what some old book says, that needs faith to be believed. In my mind it is being gullible to believe only on feelings and faith. I have never seen or felt anything supernatural and until then I will not be gullible. Besides I read the Bible and if it's true, the God of Abraham is a monster that murders the first born and commits genocide among numerous other atrocities. The god in the Old Testament is the same god of the New Testament.
Free will...
Free is unconstrained.
Will is the label for one's wanting thoughts,
I want to do this, I want to have that, etc.
Thus free will is simply unconstrained wants.
Why I want what I want is a different and very interesting question.
Since the source of all one's conscious thoughts is one's unconscious
we have the proximate answer.
How one's unconscious becomes stocked is
very largely one's experience of culture and
it is this experience that constitutes the more distant answer.
I like his free will blazer. "I'm free to be two colors if I want."
People are forced to think and do the types of things that their type of genetics and their types of life experiences program them to think and do throughout their life. Who and how someone happens to be is an extremely unfair unjust lottery that is dependent on what type of genetics that they happen to have and depending on what types of life experiences they happen to have throughout their life.
I agree that perception is reality, totally. Not so long ago i was on a car and i just looked at the streets and i understood that everything i was seeing was amorphous and none-sensical, in modern terms ''absurd''. I understood that i was the interpreter, we are interpreters of that nonesensical reality, and that's our task. Matter shapes the Psyque, Psyque shapes Matter. As above, so below. In free will, a secret determinism. In determinism, a secret free will. I think our free will resides on the capacity to surrender to our task and embrace whatever life throw at us. Free will is an act of love, not of Will to Power. Or may be both, i just know i know nothing.
Don't be so hard on yourself. You had no choice except to know that you know nothing.
I love the part about matter shapes psyche, thus psyche must shape matter. Incredible
Perception is not reality. None of this is real. Neither is any form of free will. We do not shape anything, we merely follow the algorithm and experience things. You think surrendering to your task is your choice? It's already been made for you if you accept the truth or not. Even what I say here is already been written and I have no control over this even if I know you are an illusion also and my words are pointless.
Well put! Extraordinary! Especially when you actually used word - secret, both ways.
Or you might say, free will resides on the capacity to surrender to, and embrace, our purpose. In that regard, we’re free only to the extent that we move toward our purpose. And you could say our purpose is to move toward love - which by doing so we inevitably give glory to God.
In contrast, when we’re not surrendering to or embracing what life throws at us, with love, we necessarily move away from our purpose and instead toward a form of enslavement in that we’re stuck dwelling on things which we know are detrimental to our wellbeing. That’s the opposite of freedom - trying to be, or move toward, something that we’re not made for.
Everything we are is defined by what we are not. What we used to be or what we never were.
Every choice we make, every outcome we experience is an opportunity to establish what and where we are or to bring into bold relief where we are lacking.
To me free will is simply the opportunity to engage in this process of self evaluation and self creation.
I see it as a collaborative effort between us and our Creator and serves us both as we engage in the eternal adventure of self realization.
To think of it otherwise would make life essentially pointless.
Self is illusion. Have fun :)
I contacted a lawyer about having some estate planning paperwork done. That was when I found out that there is no free will. 🙂
😂😂😂😂😂
Yeah, but some academic in some university said that the entire universe is deterministic even though they have spent their entire life couped up in a lab... on earth... not even talking to people
Yeah, but some academic in some university said that the entire universe is deterministic even though they have spent their entire life couped up in a lab... on earth... not even talking to people
Yeah, but some academic in some university said that the entire universe is deterministic even though they have spent their entire life couped up in a lab... on earth... not even talking to people
This sort of reminds me of when you have to write an assay at the absolute last minute. You know nothing about the subject but still go around in circles trying to reach the required minimum of words.
Some of these are just truisms, some are just uncoherent sentences. "Free Will" was barely mentioned.
The amount of truth and light this dude is dropping here is genuinely shocking
It’s amazing
It sounded like a load of nonsense to me.
"The universe is not deterministic, technically speaking. There isn't any dispute about that." This statement is completely false. We have no evidence to say whether it's deterministic or not.
"You're not a clockwork machine. And the reason that we know that is because a clockwork machine can't compute the transforming horizon of the future." This is just meaningless word salad which he doesn't even attempt to explain.
Even if the universe isn't deterministic, that in no way implies that free will exists. And that's to say nothing of the fact that nobody has ever come up with any coherent definition of free will, and certainly not Peterson. Free will does not and can not exist because the concept itself is incoherent and self contradictory.
@@fredjimbob2962 free will exists, even if it’s a small amount it exists cuz if it didn’t none of these things in this life would exist. God has given us free will because it’s the only way we can exist as a species
@@Christ60 Ok, well if you believe in the old man in the sky, then you'll believe anything and I guess there's not much point in us discussing free will.
@@fredjimbob2962 I believe what I believe you believe what you believe, but Jesus Christ is realer than all things of this world and he suffered and died for our sakes, was buried and rose again, I wish you a blessed day🩸🙏
Determinism is irrelevant for the concept of free will! Even without determinism a case for free will can't be made logically! It basically boils down to HOW we make a decision: Either there is a reason for why we decided something, i.e. there is a chain of causes and effects that lead to this decision (determinism) or there is no reason for why we decided something, i.e. there was an effect without a cause but that would mean that we are not responsible for the effect!
I am aware of how demoralizing this realization can be and want to add something: Although the concept of free will is illogical, we still need to act as if free will exists! It requires us take responsibilities. Without it, I assume, we would be much more likely to just blame the universe for our miserable existence. It was not our decision after all.
Classic example of a false dichotomy you’ve built for yourself there 👍
Classic example of claiming something without saying much! 👍In case you think that I am conflating the terms responsibility and free will: No I am not! They are obviously not the same but they are related: You can't be responsible for something without a free will. I am interested in feedback/criticism but please be a little bit more clear about what you mean.
@@BrightBitGAMES tldr lol
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
I find it interesting how, the realization tends to leads to just act like it dose exist. And doesn’t lead to more anti-natallist ways of thinking as it did with my self, because yes, I metaphorically “blame” the universe for our miserable existence and it would be “wrong” of “me” to subject anyone else.
We are bound by the limitations of our individual brains mixed with our life’s experiences. Mic drop!
And genetics but I suppose that fits under the individual brains bit
There are several undefined perspectives coming from just this sentence alone, "Whatever you are you're not a deterministic clock," whatever those may be, the sentence seems to describe that indeed objectively you're not something alike or near to a deterministic mechanical structural device technically speaking. It would be great to ask Peterson, "What is technically speaking? Define it." However, Peterson is taking a more literal approach to this: we cannot determine the future like a clock, therefore the future is unpredictable.
This might also be a simplistic approach regarding the *literal sense,* PLUS, the fact that human observation will only observe simplicity when complexity isn't specified. "The universe is not deterministic, technically speaking," from the same standpoint, the universe cannot avoid complexity of factors due to our observation. Assuming that 'complexity of factors' implies that we partook in the essential *definition* of the universe.
However, that further implies it was inherent for us to observe, but the universe would not take that into consideration at all. Now, the example that Peterson shows actually supposes free will because it proves there can be an abrupt change that you chose to happen, at your will, whether the complexities or simplicities led to that outcome it still then determined a different state of being. Sort of as if I collapsed my worldview.
The next point is essentially is nicely put "Reconfigure how you think about the world," then he follows up with, "You don't see objects that are objective," and, "You see patterns that are functional." Us humans truly defy basic stimuli in a sense. I think those concepts can certainly be intuitive as we play the role of observers.
"the difficulty in predicting the future means it's not deterministic"
lul wut.
Exactly. Our epistemic state has zero bearing on whether we are the author of our choices.
NO! It is only "difficult" because it is complicated.
@@derekdurst2146
"NO! It is only "difficult" because it is complicated."
I'm not sure who you're responding to, but that's not the only reason we couldn't predict the future based on the current arrangement of matter/energy if, that is, one buys into quantum indeterminacy. IF there is an indeterminate feature of quantum mechanics, it likely means that no matter how much we know about the arrangement of the physical world and the processes, we still could not calculate the future including decisions.
@@rizdekd3912 If we had a big enough computer, sure we could, absolutely!
@@derekdurst2146 "If we had a big enough computer, sure we could, absolutely!"
Do you not agree with the idea of quantum indeterminacy?
I think my issue is the concept of "free" will. But rather what we can do is a product of where we are and who we are. What we can try to do is without limit, but we can't do everything. Sorta the reverse of everyone can cook from ratatouille. We still have choice. But it's not unrestrained.
As always, you are brilliant Dr. Peterson, but, it is the seeing of you and your bride together that is the real treat for me. Y’all are adorable. Some say adoration ought be reserved for Christ alone. To them I say: Well when a couple, their relationship itself aims at embodying The Logos, how could they NOT be adorable?
May God grant you many many many years!!!
✝️☦️✝️
I was fortunate enough to have a "meet & greet" with both of them. It's so obvious that they love each other and that he deeply respects her.
@@Doug-tp1jp I want to respond with a Napoleon Dynamite huffing “Lucky…” .gif, but, alas, I cannot.
@@gregorywitcher5618 that actor hates Jordan Peterson
@@jesipohl6717 does this look like the face that gives a flip? Hell to the Naw…
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
Absolutely correct, and if you don't understand, you need to watch a few more times. There's only two "choices" in this world, and he does give choice a very fair representation, but shuts it down with the justification that you ultimately have 2 paths. When you choose to believe there is no good or evil, you have ruined yourself for eternity.
Loving your voice in the world. You inspired me (and I'm sure many tens of thousands more, at least) to be a better person in an ethical way and contribute to the world... much love and respect xx
Yes, JP can inspire you and make you think, at the same time.
Lmao this has to be a joke
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
The God of the Bible certainly talks to us as though we have free will.
"I have set before you life and death, therefore CHOOSE life, for why would you die?"
JP’s brain: (complex deterministic philosophy)
My brain: “Why is he dressed like Two-Face?”
What Dr. Peterson describes is the highest good in the natural order. When he says “highest good” one must contextualize it this way. For the highest good, our sanctification, is the ordering of our lives naturally so as to make way for the highest good which is not of the strength of man but of the goodness of God, namely to love.
“Do we have free will?” Is the wrong question. We do have some will of our own but it most certainly isn’t “free”.
Still not true in my view. Peterson poses the notion of forward planning as evidence to not being the same as a clockwork machine, but this is a strawman argument because nobody is saying we are like machines. We are, as far as we know, entirely different as we get to experience our existence. But forward planning is an easily explicable function of evolution; you don’t have to work too hard to figure out how that might be the case. His analysis is wrong on another level also: they very plans he nods to as evidence are, by definition, based upon past experience and societal indoctrination that drive us to certain things. You don’t THINK you are hungry, you are hungry. You don’t think you want a Lamborghini, you explain to yourself in your head that you want one, but wanting is a feeling, not a thought, and we don’t, without practice l, decide our feelings. Even when we do, practice itself is an overt, obvious example for programming our biology. You can’t do that unless it is mechanistic.
@@tylerdurden4396 yeah, but when you put so much passion into words and expand your vocabulary people seem to believe all the bullshit you fling at them...
@@AI3Dorinte I guess so. I like JBP by the way and I think his general message (something like take responsibility and aim for the highest good) is a sound one. I just think he tends to misrepresent arguments a little. He’s thrown himself into promoting religion in the last year or so, perhaps because of his loyalty to his wife, but it to the detriment of his own logic. He couldn’t even help bringing it up to this question, and when anybody uses religion as an argument for science the game is up.
@@tylerdurden4396 I used to like JP, not anymore. I sense a fraud each time somebody deliberately uses language that's difficult to understand either by complex vocabulary or by the structure when there's no need to. He's a fraud and when it comes to his general message, please understand that it's a political one, not in the self care category. He is far more interested in changing the culture than helping individuals. Not once have I heard him say that taking responsability is not the pancea for all hardship or mental disease... I bet there's a bunch of suffering people out there beating themselves up because they can't follow JP's advice... Anyways, I have to agree with you 100% on one thing: "when anybody uses religion as an argument for science the game is up" - when this shit happens it's so obvious it stinks...
If we truly had free will, we would all will ourselves to live our best possible lives, yet 99% of the people on this planet are not doing so.
We are merely influenced by Good or Evil.
Aristotle said in his Organon that, if there are contingent things, then determinism is false. There are contingent things. Therefore, determinism is false.
Yes Doc! We, humans, are visionaries; constantly and yet unaware of it. In this we are "free" but imprisoned by the idea or false notion of predetermined event. 🎯😲🔥🔥🔥🔥💡
"God is the spirit that confronts chaos and possibility and transforms it into habitable reality, and that's you". Wow
Buch of gibberish
That was the most wonderful answer I ever have heard.
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
I think that it's both free will and predestination at same time. It is because we have some limitations like this human body and circumstances, we know that we lives in particular frequency and we think we have unlimited version of ours but it's not. You have some limitations in it. Just like time is illusion but also it's limited living beings. So yeah we can have free will but without crossing the boundary of our limits because we can't cross. So it's like we already are predestinated at the end we can see overall picture of our life. There are some limited possibility that people think it's free will but it's already programed and destined.
Free will is an illusion. Humans are not uncaused causes. Free will does not exist whether or not determinism is true. If our actions are caused, then our actions are determined and thus no one is free. If our actions are randomly generated, then our actions are not really in our control and thus no one is free. I also take British philosopher Galen Strawson's 'Basic argument' to be correct. Strawson summarizes his argument as follows:
"When one acts, one acts in the way one does because of the way one is. So to be truly morally responsible for one’s actions, one would have to be truly responsible for the way one is: one would have to be causa sui, or the cause of oneself, at least in certain crucial mental respects. But nothing can be causa sui - nothing can be the ultimate cause of itself in any respect. So nothing can be truly morally responsible."
I wake up with the exact same thoughts. My goal for the day and the obstacles. My goal may be preset but I have no power over the obstacles.
To me, free will is defined by mankind being the only part of God's creation that can say "no" to God. We're also the only part of God's creation that can say "yes" to God. We have the power to choose to live a life, eternal with God or a life eternal apart from the presence of God. Freedom to choose is the bedrock of humanities' "free will."
Well put!
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
@@insanetubegain You just acknowledged there is a God. God allows you to make the decision, He just accepts that decision you made. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Hell was not created for man, but for the devil and his followers: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. God doesn't leave you, you choose to leave Him. Repentance means to change your mind. If it was not possible to change your mind, it would be a lie, and there are three things God cannot do, He cannot lie, He cannot die, and He cannot change. The choice is yours where you spend eternity, not God's.
Lol
Was this in Brisbane? I remember this
I was thinking Melbourne, where I saw him wear that suit at least. But then I watched recordings of the other Aussie events, so can’t remember which Q&A was which. Hope he makes it back here!
A brilliant exposition of what distinguishes our humanity from everything else .., long live free will!! And more power to you JP!!
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
Who, when waking up, considers that he's only facing the 'furniture' in the room? Not even our cat acts like that's all she's considering when she wakes up. She either goes to the door asking to go out or goes through the house to her food dish for a snack and then comes and finds us...wakes us up(if we're sleeping) and makes it clear she wants to go out. Our cat has more presence of mind and considers longer range planning than that answer suggests the people in the room do.
I notice he never actually addresses the essential issue of 'free will.' And he shouldn't. Most people feel like and act like they have free will...even those who claim there's no such thing. So we can all satisfy ourselves that we have free will by an act of faith. We, based on faith and just like my cat, proceed with our day as if we're making real decisions that shape our future.
... your cats decisions weren't real? or you just don't care about your cats decisions that much because they'll never affect the rest of the world? hard to see what point you're trying to make here.
Seems to me that all the people who are arguing that they don’t have free will secretly hope not to be fully responsible for their choices.
Whether it’s “we’re just chemical reactions” or “I’m just following what it says in the Bible”, it looks like people unwilling to see just how powerful they truly are.
but it is chemical reactions isnt it?
Free will doesn't exist, that doesn't mean that the illusion of it doesn't. If the illusion of free will didn't exist this experience wouldn't be very authentic. It's proven scientifically now that our reality isn't even real, and that our "decisions" are just reactions to what our body does autonomously. If you understand how light and photons work it makes perfect sense.
@@lbjay8914no, it manifests itself through chemical reactions. No amount of chemical reactions on their own can produce a thought or feeling.
It’s a pure matter of fact. There cant be free will. Either something is determined or it is random. There is no between. In 2500 years of Philosophy no one ever gave a positive definition of what free will is. So i think, that people, who say that there is no free will, are just intellectually honest and want to face the consequences of reality, but the one who denies it, by ignoring the logical conclusions, is just scared to give up his sacred Freedom: it’s weakness. But nontheless, the ontological question of free will is a matter of fact and not of morals and emotions. Study the matter, before saying your thoughts about it.
We don’t have free will. Everything that will happen can ultimately be determined if you knew the position and trajectory of every particle in the universe. Although we don’t have free will, we choose to do our actions and are fully accountable for them.
"The universe is not deterministic" - citation needed.
Also, this ability to speak rapidly for 7 min while mostly saying nothing (at best) so confidently would be impressive even for a politician. Between 2-face over here and all the postmodernist clowns, the humanities departments are definitely not sending their best.
This is beyond your understanding if you think this world is black and white. It’s gray. You wanted a definite answer to a extremely complex analysis. Even you have to know one man cannot fully explain the universe as it came to be along with free will. JP is doing a great job
@@donatello9482 JP is doing a great job on calming your anxiety, he ain't doing a great job at explaining shit.
@@AI3Dorinte His explanations hold up, lol
no we really are a machine
your ability to perceive the formula does not make it unestablished
unestablished? what do you mean?
would you prefer nonestablished?@@guardingsoul6652
I appreciate the clarity in your expression.
To answer, I believe Dr. Peterson posits that machines solely respond to objects and stimuli. He contends that our distinction from machines lies in two key aspects: firstly, our embodiment of the spirit of God, and secondly, our unique unability to perceive objects but our subjective interpretations of them, which is what we contend with.
Exactly. Philosophers argue abstract version of free-will but that's such a cop out. We are 100% determined, everything that ever will happen is decided.
@@lovetownsend Decided by what exactly?
If you do not have enough time to listen here is the summary:
Dr. Peterson is discussing the nature of the future, asserting that it is unpredictable and the universe is not deterministic. The idea is that individuals are not like deterministic clockwork machines, and although there may be some bounds on free will, actions are not entirely predetermined. Dr. Peterson introduces the concept of ballistic movement as a deterministic action but emphasizes that overall, perceptions and actions become less determined as one looks further into the future. The argument challenges the idea of seeing objects as objective and deterministic, suggesting that they are facilitators of symbolic meaning. He emphasizes the importance of confronting the possibility of the day and interacting with the transforming world in a manner that brings about desired ends. The discussion extends to the role of individuals in participating in the creation of the world, drawing parallels to the divine act of shaping chaos and potential into habitable reality. The ethical significance of transforming potential into a habitable order is highlighted as a sign of ethical action.
So glad I listened to my man Rush Limbaugh from the beginning ( RIP) He specifically told his audience long ago that this man is a brilliant glittering gem of wisdom and truth! Little did I know, as I first was introduced to his book 12 rules for life, Rush was Right!!! Now this man is one who I follow closely and learn from him each time I hear him speak!!!
Rush? Really? How long ago was that?
I copy pasted this from my previous post on here. If there is a God of Abraham, there still can be no freewill, and here's why. God knows literally everything including the past, present, and future, he knows every second of everyone's life even before they are born. So in effect, God knows before hand that most people will suffer through life only to end up suffering for eternity in the Hell he made for them, and he knows the ones that will believe in him. So why does he make people he knows will suffer in the first place? Does god like suffering? As I said before, he already knows which people will believe and get to live in Heaven for eternity, and which ones will be skeptical and spend eternity suffering in Hell. So if you believe or you don't, God already knows the outcome, as he made you, knowing you are going to Hell or Heaven. So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you? If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil.
@@insanetubegain *"So, how can you change your mind if God already knows the outcome before he made you?"*
Your problem is that you assume that you have any idea whatever what it means to be hyperdimensional. Any argument based upon a likening of human perception to hyperdimensional perception is illegitimate.
*"If the God of Abraham intentionally makes someone knowing they will suffer forever, in my mind it makes that god evil."*
What do you mean --- "evil"?
@@bricaaron3978 Immoral, wicked, sadistic, a fetish for foreskins. I just threw that last one in because it's true and funny at the same time.
@@bricaaron3978 do you have any idea what it means to be hyper dimensional?
It is impossible to make any choices other than the ones you ultimately do make. Those choices have been waiting to be made for over 13 billion years. There is no free will.
Free will is available for all who choose to exercise it.
I choose not to drink or do drugs. I choose instead to get a good night sleep and be at work on time.
Did you choose your personality which led you to make decisions such as abstaining from using drugs?
Or was your personality formed by environmental and biological factors which you had no control over?
What made you think that you are doing the right thing by not drinking? Did you decide that you are good by your own free will?
free will is scientific impossibility, an absolute fairy tale.
@@Dsksea Seeing as how you directed your comment to them, and not their surrounding environment or internal biology, you understand perfectly well already where their personality is formed.
@Milestonemonger Sadly a lot of people think it’s that simple, but it’s not. The other comments here should help you start to understand why it’s not that simple.
He is wrong about this… Inability to predict the future out of our behaviour (as we can with ballistic movement) does not imply that future events are not direct consequences of previous events (determinism). The theory of chaos is probably the best sample of that. We only have an illusion of free will, because it is easier to live that way.
I love Dr. Peterson.
Jonathan Edwards answered the question of free will in the 18th century. Some say that if it were the only thing he ever wrote, it alone would be enough to make him the greatest philosopher to ever be born in America.
What did he say
The title of the work is this:
“An Inquiry into the Modern Prevailing Notions of the Freedom of the Will which is Supposed to be Essential to Moral Agency, Virtue and Vice, Reward and Punishment, Praise and Blame”
Or simply “Freedom of the Will”
@@jmoore20121992 Johnathan Edwards was wrong. He was dedicated to his Calvinism, or in other words, his determinism.
That’s an interesting position. Have you read his book?
@@jmoore20121992 To be fair, I haven't read his book. However, I am fairly familiar with his more contemporary theological mates, who ascribe to his way of thinking. People like James White, Steve Lawson, John Piper etc.
Here, let me help with this simple high school algebra equation:
aX(aX)+bX+c = 0
With just three known variables for a,b, and c, there are two solved states for the value of X (I am not going to write a mathematics textbook in the comments here, consult yours for 'quadratic equations' for more detail)
How many variables at the Big Bang? If three variable in a complex equation result in one of two outcomes being true, how many more diversions will the expanding universe take, moment by moment? How many more potentially true states .. and what is the mechanism that determines which of a magnificent array of possible outcomes becomes the reality that we can observe and interact with? Is it .. _consciousness?_ .. So, although the potential solved states for the universe are calculable in theory, all quantities knowable (again, in theory) and everything determined by the patterns established upon creation .. free will is STILL happening.
My credentials? I'm just a red neck tree farmer, with a massive library, and way too much free time.
I would tend to agree more with Dr Robert Sapolsky on this topic. His ideas can be somewhat disturbing for many but definitely worth checking out.
They're not disturbing at all, they just don't make sense to some one like me who has just decided to write this comment. Or maybe it was my neurochemistry or the influence of my ancestors 1 billion years ago that led to this.
These are first world problems, when people have too much time on their hands. This thing with no free will, in my mind is on the same level as the universe being a simulation. You can't even prove it. The fact that we are even talking about free will tells me we have free will.
The free will debate continues because most people don't understand causality. Even fully stochastic randomness is causal (we can't know, determine, or acquire the underlying factors, by definition). We feel agency because we're unaware of the subconscious choiceless causes; we don't cause what causes what happens to us. Mathematics itself works because base reality (the universe's 'liquid' of forces and fields) is causal; equations add up and balance because of causality. Otherwise, the continuum flow of one Now to the very next Now wouldn't obey conservation of energy.
You control your arm continuously, hence that's not a ballistic movement. It's guided.
You can move your arm continuously, but you can also move your arm moves faster than the time it takes your conscious brain to send signals to your arm. This is clearly the case in fast-moving sports where players train their reflexes to react faster than their brain can consciously make decisions.
It’s literally called a ballistic movement, he didn’t just make this up. The point is well and truly over your head.
@@bosspaw4028 No son, I'm a mechanical engineer.
@@Ben-bg2lp And I’m a biologist. What’s your point daddy?
@@bosspaw4028 What is your job though? I don't expect a zoo employee to know about physics. Or logic for that matter!
A communicator ( father-figure to lonely depressed young men ) that advocates 'sensible life choices',
is never going to let people off the hook by saying they can escape their autonomy and self-determination.
As Steven Wright once said... "you're just the secretary to your own thoughts" is not a positive enabling tool,
for Peterson... in his quest to help people overcome their misery.
VERY well put. It may take those who are overcomplicating it a bit to get honest enough to see the simplicity.
I agree with Jordan here but I’ve got an issue with this hand movement example he uses. I’ve seen him use it before. If your hand moves toward a surface and you stop it right before isn’t that predetermined? You know you’re not going to let it hit the surface regardless of how fast your brain sends that signal to stop. Can anyone better explain?
You decided in advance whether your hand was going to strike the table. You could also be wrong, and strike the table by accident. Once your brain initiates the activity, it is outside your conscious control. I think I have quite a lot of free will about where I will be in a month's time. I don't have much control over where I will be a second from now though...
Those who make the case for a lack of free will present their arguments in clear, consice ways; those who hold the opposite views tend to ramble incoherent and unfocused nonesense.
Yes. Cause it's easy to be a depressed loser who wants to take no responsibility for how the world is and our part in shaping it and just drag on with the flow. If you actually want to embrace life you'll find out that it's more complex than you realize. And that's ok. You don't need to understand everything.
@@george.vasilev.reyner1916 Understanding ones lack of free will can cause some people to go down a bad path of laziness, but suffering and wellbeing still exist and are drivers of moral action regardless.
I want free will, but as a physicist, I look at the models we use to describe the universe and I don't see it. What needs to happen to counter this is a mechanism needs to be shown that allows free will. My current hope for this is that consciousness has defied modelling. That leaves room for a non-deterministic process for consciousness. That is what is needed.
Just read Robert Sapolsky’s books there isn’t room. Unfortunately I guess.
“It’s asking Neurons to do something they can’t.”
I have no degrees or nothing fancy, I was born to poor parents with mental illnesses, and feel (
summing up, deterministic materialism is just wrong because, well it is, and i can waive my arm and stop suddenly and my analogy about life being a play is right because look at my beautiful interpretation of the bible.
AHAHAHA
current brain science about perception and how we process vision and other inputs indicates the immateriality of “solid objects”. It’s a quantum problem.
It’s a whole lot of deepities. And BTW, being deterministic is not the same as being predictable. One is about following the laws of physics, the other is about whether it can be simulated. The universe can be both deterministic and unpredictable.
Very well articulated and makes perfect sense of what it is to be put into being through a cosmic divinity that manifests truth into reality and rightful meaning into purpose.
I thoroughly enjoyed watching this to ascertain even more knowledge on the matter.
Thanks for this great video
If things look more determined as they get closer to the present, then does that mean that hindsight will reveal determinism?
Of course, we have free will, we have no choice.
Good one! Actually either way, that's a paradox, if you had a choice to be determined, your very choice leads to something which cannot be free, which means God is controlling your every thought and action, better to have a choice in the sense of not choosing to be determined, but in fact, if you want, God can make you determined.
@@pauljohnson6019 dont compliment him he stole it from Hitchens
As a Canadian with, I hope a British background, you should know "Free Will Exists". Predestination is an Eastern non Druidic ideological construct.
That is why our systems are so different.
Being unable to predict what's going to happen doesn't make it any less determined. Everything is set in stone. The past, present, and future are all locations that exist at once. The universe is like an object that we experience. Our conscious experience travels through spacetime like a train on a track. We only have the illusion of being able to choose the direction we go. There is no free will.
If it makes you feel better to imagine yourself as being free, or if it helps you make better decisions, by all means pretend. But ultimately everything is just cause and effect, with you caught in the middle.
I think Jordan's religiosity gets in the way of him seeing this.
It is not 100% known whether absolute determinism exists as far as I know; however, the alternative is randomness, which would't make free will real. In my opinion, the concept of free will itself makes no sense.
I'm struggling to understand. What allows you to confirm that everything is set in stone if you acknowledge your incapacity of being conscious of it?
@@RK-rb2jr it seems that your argument may be characterized as a false dilemma fallacy.
Is that just a cop-out way of thinking though, kinda like defeatism? It's harder to will the better good than give in to the easier choice...But doing so far more rewarding
@@reb3799 I see your point. Let me clarify: When thinking about how the universe works on a fundamental level, it either has structure / causality / logic, which would make it deterministic, or there is no structure, aka randomness. It could also be partly deterministic and partly random, which seems to be the most likely, as far as I know. Free will then is a whole ’nother topic. It is already hard to define it. As far as I consider, what is meant by it is the power over decisions an individual has. But looking at it from the outside and in the context of the universe, it makes no sense and is more of a feeling than a logical construct.
We have will as bounded by the laws that restrain it. The question that is primary is who established the laws? Secondary, is that if there is an authority that established and maintains the laws bounding will, what are those laws?
Intellectual, emotional, moral, ethical, physical, and spiritual…
Now one must ask, what are the consequences of breaking the laws. If it is the law of gravity you reject, you fall to your death. If it is the law of morality you reject you fall to hell. This is why Christ came to connect the laws, the lawmaker and those bound by the law, because we have all sinned, transgressing His law. Christ offers those who chose Him, forgiveness of the transgressions of things that are bounded as good vs evil.
We are gifted by grace the ability to express our will to accept or reject the offer of redemption from our transgressions of Gods moral law.
GOD THE FATHER THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ESTABLISHED IT
"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills" - Schopenhauer
One of the best speeches JBP has ever given, definitely. Whenever anyone tries to explain God using logic it falls flat, because that's an impossible task, thus destined to fail no matter how smart you are.
It's the foundations of the religious world view that can be (and should be) explained to the modern man who has forgotten their true meaning.
A child born into a poor family is not predetermined to remain poor. A child that is born into a wealthy family is not destined to remain rich. They each make choices and have influences which help them arrive at different ends that those at which they began.
Can you tell me how said choices and decisions are formed and made ? Whats their origin ?
@@RandallWhiskeyThe word God spoke
That’s only looking at edge cases (outlines) honing in on the 100 or so million. Completely discounting, a much larger data set, also determinism doesn’t mean predetermined, that’s fatalism.
Premises for free will:
P1: You're not physically constrictet from doing an action
P2: You're not externally forced to to do that action
P3: The willingness to to that action stems from your true values. E.g.: your views weren't twisted from being a cult member for the past ten years
P4: Your true values are of your own choosing
Problem is: they never are
Why? Your values are shaped by your genetics and your environment. None of these are of your own choosing. Meaning even with P1, P2 & P3 fulfilled, you still don't truly "own" P4.
Some people like to pull the uncertainty principle from quantum mechanics, but that doesn't solve anything. For that which is uncertain (random) is by definition not in your control.
No; we can't precisely predict anything, really, but that doesn't undermine the fact that the thing that happened, was the only possible thing to happen, because it's the only thing that DID happen.
Please discuss with me below. I'm very intrigued by this question, but don't believe Dr. Peterson provided a satisfying response to the issue posed in the video.
Best yapping of the year!🎉Congrats!!
Mate he doesn't have free will according to you people, and neither do you. Just 2 brains judging each other. I wonder what millions of years of events happend that led to you making this comment. With out your choice ofcourse. You people believe your brain is separate from you and that it decides things for you. Just come out and say it, some people don't like to take responsibility for their lives. It's completely acceptable
What location was this from Jordan’s tour? Could that information be included in the description?
Wow, this is just a religious answer. Where on the way, did he lose his scientific approach?
incorrect
Using science to prove religion is fruitless. Science requires a repeatable event for proof. Science cannot prove the existence of George Washington.
"Religion is when answer I don't like"
Just because you cannot check everyone's genitalia at the door, doesn't mean that they aren't - as a matter of fact, a man or a woman.
Likewise, just because you can't antecipate the future, doesn't mean that it can't be predetermined.
It's a spiritual answer. Not a religious one. Can you tell the difference?
The man's too smart to be only scientific.
Dr. Petersen presents some very interesting points. Certainly, our machines are engineered to be deterministic. They are characterized by the deterministic theory that defines them. We operate them within a specific domain so they remain predictable. Science also deals with deterministic systems. The key quality of a scientific theory, what makes them valuable, is they predict the future. Not all components of deterministic systems are predictable, the motion of a molecule in a gas, for example. An indeterministic system may include deterministic components, the human heart, for example. Thus, most deterministic systems have indeterministic aspects and vis versa. The question is, what do we mean by "free". I think we mean a thing is free if it is, in principle, unpredictable. The question is, how can we know that something is, in principle, unpredictable .
Peterson is wrong about free will and his ballistic hand move demonstration is also wrong.
Let's hear a better explanation from you. I'll wait.
Developing a model to predict something does not mean it doesn’t exist.
Daniel Dennett also argued that consciousness and qualia are mere illusions simply because they can be modeled.
Your model is never more real than the subject it’s intended to model. It provides a degree of predictive utility, but even then we never assert absolute certainty.
The idea of free will being inherently unpredictable is a far fetched assumption, you won’t even find that in the most fundamental religious notions of free will.
In fact, in Christian theology, the very idea of time is not linear, as though each moment exists simultaneously.
The fact that a future event may already exist, does not remove the existence of one’s will in that moment.
Illusion is a mode of consciousness, so the view that consciousness and qualia are "mere illusions" is absurd.
Bro just used some word salad
No, he is concise. Understanding him requires knowledge of the words he uses, which requires above High School level reading.
We could be composed of deterministic mechanisms that are tuned to optimize our response to a variety of environments. Just because we are adaptable doesn't mean it's not deterministic.
"Through lack of any true understanding, materialists denounce God; or may otherwise condemn Him for all the ills of the world, never recognizing man's responsibility, through misuse of free choice, for his own miseries.”
We have functional free will, not absolute free will. Functional free will acknowledges physical and material restrictions on personal volition. Absolute free will would mean the choice to be happy or choose to lower our heart rate.
There is an old saying that Nine tenths of wisdom consists in being wise in time. End quote.
Time limits are one of the greatest compulsive factors behind every choice.
You cannot deliberate for the next 4 weeks about what you will eat tomorrow.
I don't always agree with JP but I always learn something when he speaks. It is hard to believe some people want to silence him.
It's worth adding that this comes from a first person psychological perspective as opposed to a third person perspective. Both are valid though I think Peterson wants to argue the former is more real and more important, which is fine, but we should acknowledge that determinism often comes from that third person POV (and that agency is not necessarily undermined from determinism)
I disagree with his wording. He seems to use "clockwork machine" as a means of being reductive towards the deterministic argument. Just because it might not be a trivial "machine" that doesn't disprove the universe being deterministic. I think it is deterministic, it's just a matter of complexity that we cannot currently comprehend or analyse.
We have free will, and we can reunite our will with the will of God. Once our desires are the same as God's desires, it is somewhat "losing" free will, Thats the reason why God requires faith from believers. He would never direct someone without consenting. Faith is required from us because God wants us to trust Him.
Everything is deterministic and it's indisputable, because of only one fact. Either things are happening far away in the universe or here on Earth, in the present or in the visions of future, - none of these events, beings, objects can do something and do the other thing simultaneously. This means, that whatever we do as an act of free will, it is not free will, because we couldn't have done the action any other way. Because the state we were in at that time had exactly the information we needed to decide what we are going to do. Only after a fact we can look back and think "oh, we could have done something better". No we couldn't. There was no other way other than what we choose to do at the time of action. And this is true for anything around us, even movement of fire and galaxies forming are following the deterministic movement, because it's just impossible to do anything else in the present conditions only the thing those conditions produce.
You can think that overthinking things is an act of free will. But no. This Jordan Peterson interview was predetermined by the conditions at the time, his choice to participate, his process of deciding if he should go there, organizers inviting Jordan. Even the contemplation itself and the train of thought and discussion is a part of deterministic nature. Determinism is impossible to challenge. It comes before free will arguments.
Accepting determinism helps people to relax and stress less, but some people might become nihilistic, so i think it's advisable to have some belief in a free will.
This is wrong.
This is perhaps one of the few areas in which I strongly disagree with Dr. Peterson. Whether the universe is deterministic (a fact that is, btw, not at all refuted since there are so many physicists and scientists in general who do think we live in a deterministic universe, given even the complexities and randomness of the quantum world) or random, free will cannot exist.
Either the universe is deterministic and causally oriented (how can we predict, then, the movements of cosmic bodies hundreds of years into the future is the universe is not working like a clockwork machine? More accurate would it be to say that on the macro-level there is determinism at play and on the micro-level, sub-atomic, there seems to be randomness at work), or it is random, or a combination if both, and none of these options provide the necessary framework for a universe in which free will can possibly exist.
Jordan then delves into the way people live their lives, diving into territory akin to the practical implications of a society which doesn't believe in free will. That has nothing to do with the question of free will's existence now, does it?
One is a question of whether it exists, and the other an issue of should we act in accordance with the answer.
While it is true that we cant predict a single flip of a coin we have a good idea what a thousand flips of a coin will be. We certainly cant look at a molicule of a radioactive substance will decay yet we can with great accuracy measure the rate of decay of an ounce of radioactive substance. So i am glad thathe is open to a determanistic world with some random features. He probably is open to free will on some moral grounds.
In my opinion the concept of free will is motivated by believers to try to solve the problem of evil and hell.
That explains the dramatic and hypnotic appearance of this video.
Oddly enough I believe this is where our biggest issue with general intelligence systems resides. On some fundamental level, all knowledge is arbitrary. As Peterson describes, you see "patterns that are functional." The object itself doesn't exist, not really. The term and label and associations are all constructed and cemented in our minds. This pattern continues all the way up the chain into language itself, which itself is only a system of pattern recognition but a great example of what he's talking about. The function of language only exists because we ultimately decide an arbitrary meaning associated with a word, and then use that meaning in contexts (read: another level of abstraction but pattern recognition on arbitrary definitions all the same) to build further.
So in AI systems like GPT, the system requires a human-coached weighting system to even function. Because it's designed only to mathematically predict the next relevant word based on statistical probability of relation. But context changes these probabilities dramatically. This is where the weighting comes in. But it doesn't inherently know what these different contexts are, because these different contexts are arbitrary. They're decided by us, and it's only trying to mimic us. Or more specifically act as though it's mimicking us. It doesn't actually understand what it's doing. It doesn't actually know the context. It can't determine for itself what an appropriate likelihood is of a word being related because it doesn't have the sub-structure of layers and layers of context patterns that it's using to modify its weights on the fly. And if we were to try to simply retrofit GPT with the ability to adjust its weights, it'd go off the rails entirely.
I say all of this to circle back on the original point -- the functional patterns appear deterministic. But it's where I believe the real breakthrough lies. It's in what we do on a functional level that is so subconscious we don't even give it thought, so it remains invisible to us. And in that way, we can't even begin to engineer a system that behaves like it, because it's invisible to us. But if we could algorithmically reproduce a model for an entire dynamic decision making process, just represented logically with patterns, we'd have a starting point. Our current model, however, totally disregards this approach entirely.