Shin Megami Tensei's Canon Ending
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- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2024
- Celebrating 31 years of Shin Megami Tensei!
One of the most debated topics in the Megami Tensei community are theories about a canon multiversal timeline. Many MegaTen fans are interested in the idea of mapping out the entire franchise into a diagram clarifying series canon; connecting Shin Megami Tensei, Persona, Devil Summoner, Digital Devil Saga, and even Last Bible together. One part of this massive web that's often taken for granted is the idea that the Neutral route is the canon ending for SMT1, leading into SMT2. This video is investigating the evidence surrounding the mysterious events that took place between after the original Shin Megami Tensei.
/ capes_kid
ko-fi.com/kidcapes
Translations: Spider, Spooks
Scans: / veskscans
Footage: hide vista, Buffmaister
Special Thanks 🙂: Larrue, Nathan, Nawell, Rusty, Snarfssoldier17
Super Duper Ultra Special Thanks 🤩: Nobuyuki Shioda, Alicia Ashby, Thomas Wilde, Timothy Lindquist
Q&A: www.tumblr.com/kidcapes/73262...
Sources: pastebin.com/x0urz2VY
Strange Journey: A Mother's Love
• Strange Journey: A Mot...
Nocturne: Conception in the Womb
• Nocturne: Conception i...
Soul Hackers: Vision for the Future
• Soul Hackers: Vision f...
Shin Megami Tensei: Beyond Good and Evil
• Shin Megami Tensei: Be...
Satan: The Apocalypse of Zayin
• Satan: The Apocalypse ...
SMTheology (Playlist)
• SMTheology
Introducing (Playlist)
• Introducing
Track List:
Title Demo ~ Law ~ Battle [Shin Megami Tensei String Quartet Arrange]
2D Makai [Shin Megami Tensei II]
Shinjuku Hygenic Hospital [Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne]
Chaos [Shin Megami Tensei II]
Rebirth [Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne]
Chapters:
Intro 0:00
Evidence 1:26
Kazuma Kaneko 6:02
Nobuyuki Shioda 9:18
Conclusion 11:32 
Развлечения
Thank you for sharing your findings with us, its awesome how far you dug for the truth
Yo
Bro really reached out for the truth
the canon ending is whatever ending the youtuber youre watching got
Marsh's video has the highest number of views on YT and he went neutral, therefore neutral is canon.
@@sinklar7946 I just fell to my knees like Durk............
@@KidCapes I pictured this vividly.
Favorite Endings:
SMT - Neutral
SMT II - Chaos
Yeah you can argue that all 3 endings in 1 can lead to 2 by looking at world building and power struggle... character wise that's a whole different beast.
Why would a Law/Chaos alligned SMT1 protag allign himself with Valhala?
Why would the Law faction kill off a Law alligned SMT 1 protag in a cave in? You think a Law alligned smt1 protag that was down with flooding and ICBMing the rest of Tokyo for the 1000 year Kingdom wouldn't be down with what the folk at the Millenium Tower were up to?
Also, fun fact, since you used some Sega CD version footage: Law and Chaos credits all end with a "END?" while the neutral one ends with a "END".
Nice.
In the PC Engine version, the narration of Law and Chaos ending have the protagonist questions his two paths, while Neutral ending he's pretty resolute with the path he chose.
It's such a fan thing to endlessly debate over which ending is canon. Not to imply that I'm better or anything, I understand that it's fun to pick a team and rally for them. But I try not to take the "canon" too seriously. Imo it makes sense that any of the endings could lead into the state of the world at the beginning of SMT2.
I applaud you for reaching out and getting a comment from some leading authorities, even if someone wanted to claim death of the author or whatever it's always interesting to hear from someone who has worked on the series in some capacity. They just tend to have more knowledge on the games and therefore could have a more informed opinion.
This was super interesting!
Man, I really miss DoubleJump books. They were to strategy guides what Working Designs was to localization, IMO.
Man how come it took 3 years for me to find this dope ass channel
I wish I'd found this channel sooner. You're doing some incredible work. Keep it up!
You're a very thoughtful and level headed person! Thanks for your hard work
Thank you for this very informative video.
For the longest time, I played SMT1 thinking that the only route that one could plausibly take was “Neutral” and that unlike SMT2 and Strange Journey, it had a “canon ending.” I’m especially glad to hear Kaneko’s perspectives on this topic.
I also found the eventual fate of SMT1’s protagonist (where it was implied that he got killed in an ambush) really saddening whenever I chanced upon it in SMT2. Would be curious to hear your thoughts on that as well.
and lame, is the D&D trope of "rock falls"
If you had the chance to play imagine ( the mmo) they tell you more about the smt 1 protagonist death, since the game happens between 1 and 2, and one of the endings could "lead" to 2
@@sacrito123 Oh really? Could I have the source for that please?
sadly theres no source, I learned that reading the npc text that were in english while playing the game, but there are some gameplays with cinematic, Shin Megami Tensei IMAGINE - Act 17 No other Gods before me look for that videos, the Cerberus there is (pascal ) is the one from smt 1 prot, you guess that by reading the text@@michs7451
Sad to see that the Protagonist of SMT I won't be able to truly see the world that he has fought for... Which is attributed to his statue in Valhalla during SMT II crying bloody tears.
Extremely well researched, especially considering how small your channel is. Hope you get bigger soon, and subscribed to make that happen sooner.
You have a very healthy perspective on canon and other such things. If I ever get the chance to write fiction worth reading, I hope it finds its way into your hands, because you are the sort of person who is worth writing for.
This is the most touching comment I've ever gotten, I really appreciate it
Great video
Nice vid love SMT and most Megaten games.
BABY WAKE UP, NEW KID CAPES VID JUST DROPPED
It's been a while. Whenever I see a video of yours I know I'm in for a treat. Do you have more ideas you'd like to explore in a future video? Hope you're doing well!
Appreciate it, same to you! I have a pretty long list of topics I want to cover, but next will either be angels or a short if... video.
@@KidCapes I am a big fan of the Digital Devil Saga games, any chance you might do some vids for those two games?
It's something I'd like to do in the future, but it's not a priority. I wouldn't expect it within a year tbh.
I thought the neutral ending in SMT was the canonical ending, regardless it makes sense to me the connection with SMT 2 and the fate of the hero, if you remember in SMT 2 when Aleph see all the statues of the previous winners the Hero Statue was there and dropped a tear. Taking that detailed under consideration I thought the archangels toke down the protagonist. Great video
I've wondered about the tear as well, as at least in the fan translation, it is a moment that really stands out in its presentation. As the player, you know who you are looking at, and he is crying, like the statue is crying an actual tear. It isn't elaborated on at all, and I can't help but wonder why bother if it wasn't supposed to be meaningful? It isn't that I'm turned off by the idea that the hero could be sad about the state of affairs, it just doesn't make sense. He didnt cry when his mom died; he laid down a trail of ass beatings until he was unable to. And then he pulled himself up, left the land of the dead a pile of ethereal corpsed, and returned to the real world to continue the beat downs.
I dont remember the dialogue, but at face value when I played the game (2) some years ago, I interpreted the scene as he was just mourning all the losses he endured, particularly Tokyo, but it's a really unsatisfying interpretation for a silent but decisive protagonist.
There's an interview (I think its in Kazuma Kaneko Works 2 but I don't really remember tbh) where it's explained that the statue sheds a tear because Beth died and she was the reincarnation of the SMT1 Heroine. That being why their outfits were so similar.
@@KidCapes That's crazy. It's a variation on the creation myths for amterasu susanoo and tsukiyomi then. Nice.
@@KidCapes Wow, that makes so much sense
This was very interesting.
Thanks for piecing this all together. I know gathering all this couldn't have been easy.
A great video as usual. I'm curious, though, could you share the original Japanese text of your interview with Shioda? I'd love to see his exact words.
Sorry about that, I've been scrambling all morning, but I updated it with Shioda's original text now. I will warn you that every translator I brought this to mentioned that they were having a hard time understanding what he was trying to say though.
@@KidCapes Thank you so much! Also, do you have a specific compilation for all the resources you use? Specifically, I was looking for those Steven comments on the SMT 3 Laptop, but couldn't find them anywhere.
No, I don't, but hopefully there will be a community one soon when the new wiki finds its footing.
Kid Capes my goat
epic video
I think SMT imagine takes place between I and II? Perhaps there's information about this topic in that game, although the official servers were shut down long ago
Appreciate the info, conclusion at the end sounds like the same wishy washy neutral crap one would find in a neutral route though. Coincidence?
I think that the point of it all is that it doesn't really matter, not in the long run at least. SMT is all about cycles, you can decide how your cycle is going to be, but when a new cycle starts it will all start anew. I also think that the law alignment is, in a way, the most important one, since the other alignments almost always define themselves in opposition to it, which makes sense: law is the embodiment of the status quo, what story isn't about challenging the status quo and bringing in novelty?
Let’s gooo
Why didn't you mention the two SMT 20XX mobile games? I read a transcription of their story a month ago but I don't remember much. What was confusing to me is that I didn't see a conection of 20XX Devil's Colosseum with 20XX or SMT 1 and 2, but 20XX did seem to happen between SMT 1 and 2.
Personally, I think the explanation of how each end leads to Tokyo Millennium says a lot more about human nature and overall message in the series than the particulars of which path the main character took.
RUclips finally recommend something worth It.
smt1: neutral
smt2: law
smt3: chaos
While you bring up some good points, especially with the players decision being right, SMT 1 starts by telling you that the Neutral ending is the one you must strive for. I think that it is pretty clear that It is cannon.
I do acknowledge that the games are very open about preferring Neutral ideologically, but imo that isn't the same as saying it's canon. In short, I think this situation is largely due to ATLUS trying to have their cake and eat it too with Neutral.
When the next video coming out bro
probably not the first to say but the "schoolkid with the gadget" is likely in reference to smt if...
it is, yea
Oh wait I misread. No, it's probably not specifically a reference to if... That's just kinda what characters generally refer to SMT1 MC across the franchise when they don't know him personally.
@@KidCapes when? where? i've played literally every main series smt game and that's blatantly not true?
In 2, if..., and Imagine he's referred to as a boy/young man. I'm assuming you're stuck on the high school part, which fair enough, but I'm pretty sure that's just supposed to be referring to his general age (especially considering that Japanese text also mentions that the kid is from Kichijoji). Besides, I don't think it would really make much sense for them to be referring to the if... MC in that context anyway considering they're talking about the aftermath of SMT1.
Shin mega ten
People legit never played SMT IV/Apocalypse huh? I believe Steven states the infinite number of Universes and considering the “Heroes of the Diamond Realm” DLC or whatever its called, shows that. (Different version of Flynn for example)
I think Stephen would know
So Kaneko's idea with neutral leading into II is that it just leads to a power vacuum that makes people tend towards Law (since it makes things unsafe)?
Anyway, "the establishment of the communal society" to me still sounds like it at least excludes Law. Since they definitely wouldn't be ok with coexisting with gaeans.
Well, I suppose the fact that society at the end of smt I is in such ruins that you can reasonably expect a "communal society" like that to be able to go unchecked by whoever won the war. Would kind of fit with what Kaneko was saying.
At any rate, I feel like it still fits best with Neutral being the outcome. No one after the ICBMs dropped really considers neutral in I. It's kind of just limited to (maybe) the mc, Lao zi and I guess Masakado, and obviously only the first might do anything to actuate neutral. Sure, other people can start being neutral, or consider it. But why wouldn't they have done it earlier? Wouldn't the law or chaos dudes being in power just make neutral happening even harder than it was before?
It's a foundational part of the later entries, particularly SMT5 where it's explained that it's a sort of pendulum ticking back and forth between order and chaos, too much order begets chaos and chaos inevitably over time ends up becoming a laddered structure, thus leading to order.
@@Vanity0666 I have to say that this seems like a completely wrong understanding of V.
V doesn’t say they lead into each other. It’s just about how the rule of any socio-ideological paradigm is temporary and the gods not in rule will always want to take the throne of creation.
Law didn’t fail because it led into Chaos. It simply failed because Lucifer beat YHVH, somehow.
I wouldn't exactly say they're wrong, it's more like they're describing a simplification of what you are. Law and Chaos going back and forth for eternity is a metaphor.
Ironically neutrality's biggest issue when conflict solving IRL is that most of the time you're not doing anything. Establishing peace between 2 extreme ends is pretty much impossible and Kazuya built the foundation for a society full of people with extremely different ideas of how things should be run, a society without an idea of what it wants to be tends to simply break apart eventually. SMT's neutral society could be considered as basically anarchism, a society like that needs serious psychological restructuring, the fact that messian and gaian ideas were still so prevalent even after Kazuya showed people they didn't need gods and life was a matter of balance shows that people would rather cling onto something or someone instead of living for themselves, this same exact thing happens in real life and well... It's quite a long topic to discuss and you could even bring Nietzsche's ubermensch in there.
Point is that the idea of all endings leading to law is quite realistic really, specially when it comes to the cycle of humanity looking for order among chaos and chaos among order. It's happening IRL too with certain things that are a little too political to discuss but its the same idea.
Edit: forgot to mention that your idea of neutrality being almost non existent among people sounds really accurate if you think about it, like it's simple logic: if one day we suddenly got nuked and god started sending angels and telling people it's the end of times and he's gonna save his followers I'm sure most people would either turn into believers (messians) or hold a grudge against god for thinking he can simply destroy us whenever he wants to (gaians) lol, like even I would probably turn christian if I saw a demon and an archangel right in front of me.
@@shadowmaster452 first of all your concept of neutrality is fundamentally flawed, it doesnt mean "middle ground" it means "not a fucking extremist terrorist doing Jihad in Japan"
What you are literally doing in neutral routes is going up to the people who are causing bullshit unnecessary issues for humanity and telling them to fuck off and die while using whatever power you have to stop them even if it means you have to kill them.
The simple factual context of the game is that all protagonist routes take place in a world out of balance to begin with, you kill Gotou who is responsible for putting up the barrier around Japan preventing the nukes, then Thorman dies in the blast while you're sent 30 years into the future.
Thorman wins regardless. Tokyo gets nuked in every outcome. The outcomes where tokyo didn't get nuked end up becoming Persona and SMT If...
Does the first SMT have a conection with the originals?
Not really. They're generally treated as being separate parallel worlds, but SMT1 GBA does make mention of the MC getting Pascal from a man named Nakajima. I wouldn't take that reference too seriously tho.
MegaTen is a multiverse. It's not a fan theory, the creators have said as much.
I wasn't trying to say that the idea of a MegaTen multiverse itself is a fantheory, I was referring to how people connect games within it together.
Mainline SMT is a singular linear timeline, save for 4 which is just all over the fuckin place and the characters literally time travel in that one
Other SMT spin-offs are based on a universe/timeline where the nukes never went off in SMT1
1+2+if..., 3, SJ, 4+4A, and 5 are all set on different worlds.
@@KidCapes if and persona take place in the same general time and place
🧼🧼🧼
I do disagree with the idea of canon presented here, as I prefer usually to stick to the original author, however I enjoyed the video very much. Smt does have a good history of allowing you to choose your ending, however lately it always ends up coming with the rereleases (strange journey redux for example) and the base endings of the game end up being bad except maybe one of them. SmtV has extremely bland endings, and I cannot help but feel that it got slightly influenced by the persona "choose whatever ending you like but this one is the good one and this one is bad" trend, the idea of bad and good ending contradicts the spirit of letting you choose.
Is it true that the whole Persona series happens if the events of SMT1 didn't happen?
It's kind of complicated, but the gist is Devil Summoner 1 is set in a parallel world where SMT1's Great Cataclysm didn't happen and characters from it appear in Persona.
I think it's more like some world that end up similar to destroy the throne ending or world of humanity from SMT5 ending
SMT if was what could happen in the timeframe of the start of SMT1 in the Devil Summoner/Persona timeline.
@@KidCapesraidou confirms smt1 and 2 and if are the same universe
The events of Raidou 1 rewrote the future
3:05 The visionary items were added in the old ps1 port before the gba, right?
Another thing that outright confirms thefact that nuetral was canon for 1 was in smt imagine which goes into details of the messians and gaens who were part of the commune which were in a temporary truce and at the end of the game it implies that they would eventually be at each others throats. And this is like after the player character likely has a hand in establishing what would lead to the kingdom being made after beaten an innocent named setsu who becomes seth to recreate the world and this game takes place between 1 and 2. And it would provide some insight into Satan.
The commune isn't from IMAGINE, it's mentioned in the SMT2 timeline, so Kaneko would've had that context when making his comment.
First
11:51 No its not, that's the issue I have with the comment 6:32 . If you play the original versions of SMT1 and then SMT2, it does not give the vibe or idea that this happens in all endings, only in the neutral. The explanations Kazuma Kaneko gives never come to the mind of the players. Why? It's because the Chaos and Law endings give definite conclusions as to what happens in the future, the Neutral one is the only one that doesn't. I won't have an issue if it was the case, but the games did not show that possibility at all :/
Only when SMT SJ Redux (or Devil Survivor Overclocked to be more accurate) came out, did the concept of the a Law/Chaos ending not being an absolute ending, come to mind for SMT fans.
I'm still think it's Neutral because there's no reason to build Valhalla if he's Law-aligned and Chao-aligned
Video Titled: Shin Megami Tensei's Canon Ending
The conclusion: No one, not even the ones in charge of the story have a saying about the ending so it is whatever you want it to be LMAO
Smt1 and smtif are connected to persona
Yet persona fans think persona came first
I just more Demifiend from a sequel.
Glibbb copes
ngl if it wasn't for Nintendo not wanting to publish anything in the west that had heavy religious references in it at the time we'd have gotten SMT 1 and 2 but considering how retarded Christian evangelists freaked out over evolution in Pokemon they likely got cold feet.
This ruined the continuity of the games as you can see they tried to reboot the games with SMT 4/4A.
Nocturne might as well be it's own universe. These games didn't have to be so confusing, but on the other hand, had this not happened, we might have never gotten 3 4 and 4A to start with, so it's a mixed bag. Just hoping we get another mainline game before I die of old age. Considering how they're rebooting persona 3 and will likely remaster 4 (again) and probably re-release the portable games in the future it might be 2035 before smt 6.
I think you're making a huge assumption that ATLUS want to reboot SMT just because 1 and 2 didn't come out in the West. Seems more like they just like messing around with multiverses and referencing past games they worked on. You have to remember that most of the veteran staff at ATLUS now grew up playing the series. Not to mention that ATLUS has basically always played loosely with continuity, even before Nocturne came out.