Who Really Won The Dance Of The Dragons? | House Of The Dragon & Game Of Thrones History & Lore
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2022
- The question of who really won the dance of the dragons may seem like a simple question. But the reality is it's more complicated than it seems. On the surface you have Aegon II and his greens, but when you look deeper maybe you can argue Rhaenyra and her blacks won. But it goes deep if you like some crazy theory's. Maybe there is some else at play.
With house of the dragon coming out in a little over three weeks this video will break down by biggest concern about house of the dragon, the show runners picking sides between the black and greens. The Dance Of The Dragons will be the focus of the plot of the new HBO spin-off House Of The Dragon coming in 2022. So if you want to learn the story before we see HBO's take on it then this will be a very long-running series. Game Of Thrones / House of the dragon are HBO shows based on George R R Martin's A Song Of Ice And Fire series. The information in this video comes from the books a world of ice and fire as well as fire and blood.
The Coronation Of Queen Rhaenyra (Dance Of The Dragons) Game Of Thrones History & Lore
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Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen was trapped on Dragonstone by her brother King Aegon ii with no way to escape her fate. What was to come was the final showdown between the two main players of the dance of the dragons and bring the war into its final phase. The House of the dragon was crumbling and the events that was about to follow would only cause more damage to both sides of the war.
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Daemon won lol, he cemented his name in history and got the glory of a dragonriders death, married a queen, whose sons he had with her go on to both become Kings and continues the family line all the way down to Jon Snow. Not to mention that all of his biological children survived the war. And he will forever be known for killing Vhagar, the largest dragon at the time of the Dance. He lived his life exactly the way he wanted and died exactly the way he wanted, he's the true winner.
Sadly, I imagine he'd be rolling in his nonexistent grave over the fates of his daughters, Baela and Rhaena. One died very young in childbirth of her second child and also had a girl missing an arm due to an attack of some kind of valiryo worm. The other married to a Hightower, and bore daughter after daughter until it killed her. Daemon's sons at least lasted a little longer, but the misery of one that led him to squander key moments in caring for the remaining dragons and the failure to raise the next generation of House Targaryen would displease him.
true
yeap indeed, he lived as he pleased and died on his own terms
Absolutely! It reminds me of the end VO of the old movie "Legends of the Fall" with Brad Pitt: "It was a good death". I was still a child when I watched this and it impressed me till today.
Daemon after all is GRRM's favorite Targaryen.
How ironic that in the end Aegon ii was left with only a female heir just like Rhaenyra was. And Aegon iii was left to rule over a kingdom he never wanted and was never prepared for just like Aegon ii
Aegon the II supported Rhaenyra and didn't want the throne. But his mother convinced him to take it because Rhaenyra would have killed him to stop the rebellion even if he didn't support it.
@@biggibbs4678 If Aegon, Halaena, and Aemond flew over to Dragonstone on their dragons to bend the knee to Rhaenyra, like their father commanded them, boom no war, no kinslaying
@@biggibbs4678 I don't think Rhaenyra would have but a certain Rouge Prince maybe..
@@biggibbs4678 Idk, that could be just green propaganda. The witness that accounted that was a green supporter pretty much
@@biggibbs4678 Idont agreethat Rhaenyra would have killed him....itwas justAlicent with her paranoia
Rhaenyra's faction ultimately won by having her descendants with Daemon on the throne but at a very high price whereby all their dragons and Rhaenyra herself lost her life.
100%
It's Daemon's descendants who are on the throne not Rhaenyra's. Her son didn't inherit the Throne because he was Rhaenyra's son he inherited it through the succession through Daemon. Don't forget because of the Dance Female Heirs and Heirs through the Female line would always inherit last. In that way while the Black "won" the throne but the greens won the war of ideologies. In the end it was a draw as both sides where linked in matrimony in the end.
@@muffinhydra aegon the younger was the son of rhaenyra and daemon
@@daemonbfyre544 daemon is the crucial part here. Even with her son being on the throne Rhaenyra never was acknowledged as a queen, she is always princess Rhaenyra. Aegon is only king because his father was daemon not because his mother was rhaenyra.
The ultimate example of a Pyrrhic victory. At the same time Alicent, in the sense of this world being based on 13th-14th century England, was in the right.
Ultimately everyone loses, the targaryens lost their dragons, the small folk suffered, and the lords wasted lives and resources. Westeros became weaker and more divided.
I see it as the other nobles being the ones who won ultimately. The Targs lose their dragons, and the playing field becomes level. The overthrowing of the Targaryens became an inescapable reality from that point on
@@fartpoop9722 But it shows the strength of the Targ bloodline, for the overthrowing to take a whole century. Even without their Dragons, they still had the respect, power and fear that enabled them to be the Royal House. it took a literal Madman ruling for a few years before the other Houses and the Common folk started to rebel.
The Citadel won.
Not just that but Targaryens had they gotten along could have expanded the family even further and created a much greater empire
@@JoaoCosta-ly1sw yes this is the truth. Citadel really wanted dragons and magic dead.
Every high Lord without a Dragon won the Dance. It took out the majority of the dragon-riders and the 🐉 they rode. Made the Targaryens the same mortals as everyone else.
the strongs were all killed out by the war so i dont think so
I actually like this perspective. (Sans the strongs)
Strong is not a major house so...
true, just look of how the high lords or even the minors challenged the crown in the future years, the dragons were a dissuation weapon, without them, the targs relied on armys of men who they expect to be loyal for the crown, just like any other lord
@@moonondp4173 part and parcel of living in a big castle (Harrenhal).
Short term: The Greens because Aegon II had Rhaenyra fed to Sunfyre.
Long Term: The Blacks because of arrival of the Starks and the ascension of Aegon III, the son of Rhaenyra, to the Iron Throne after Aegon II was poisoned and it was the line of Aegon III who would inherit the iron throne for the years to come.
It was the line of Vicerys 2 not Aegon 3 ,. The targaryens you see in got are descendants of Vicerys 2,
long term doesn't exist. Targayrens were eventually wiped out. So Greens won.
Then Aegon II DIED and Rhanyra's son, who saw her fed to the Sunfyre, became King. Everyone lost quite a bit, but I'm calling this for Team Rhaenyra!
@@carastone3473 bruh. read what I wrote.
I think long term the Greens won too because no woman sat the throne.
Well after Aegon II died, all Targaryen Kings were descendants of Rhaenyra and Daemon, Robert Baratheon too!
yes, in the end Blacks won
The blacks won but at a very high price.
@@kingkashi5151 the dragons it's bigger lost ever happened to house targaryen
The two factions were married after the war
Dragons will be lost someday anyway. better end by their own than being overthrown by some other unrest houses.
So many ironies in this devastating war.
- The blacks who fought for a female monarch were left by a male survivor. While greens who fought for a male monarch were left by a female survivor.
- although Rhaenyra dies before Aegon II, it's her line that survives. But at the same time Aegon III, although Rhaenyra's son ascends the iron throne as Aegon II's heir. He got his titles from his uncle and not mother. So, in the royal line he would be treated as "Aegon II's nephew" and not "Rhaenyra's son".
- Neither Rhaenyra nor Aegon were initially born to rule. Rhaenyra had to be declared heir as King Viserys did not have a son and wanted to spurn his brother Daemon for his vile comments. Aegon on the other hand was forced into a throne that he neither expected nor wanted for himself.
- at the end, both of them were essentially proxies. Rhaenyra was a proxy for Daemon/Corlys whereas Aegon was a proxy of the Hightowers. Makes it even sadder knowing how they end up.
It's also ironic that both sides became tyrants and huge hypocrites - Rhaenyra enforced male inheritance to keep her allies happy and despite having 3 'Strong' sons, treated Addam horribly because he was a 'bastard'.
Alicent orginally wanted to protect her children and uphold morality yet lost them all and became increasingly immoral.
Also there's an irony in that Daemon who orginally fought for his brother's throne claims over Rhenys battles Aemond who is fighting for his brother's throne claimes over Rhaenyra.
The treatment of Addam Velaryon and Nettles was the perfect example of rank hypocrisy from Rhaenyra. You want the heads of the "bastards" on a spike but pass off your own as legitimate and even try to make them heirs. Like people around are blind. And if not, you expect them to shut up (tongues ripped) because - "my daddy dearest".
I start off as an initial black supporter but become strictly neutral in the middle by the time she rules KL. Heck I even rooted for Daeron and the Hightowers to take KL and be done with it at one point.
@@parklinkin6624 That was what got me as well. She wasn't fighting for changing unfair traditions - she was fighting to be the sole exception to said traditions (egged on by Daemon who basically taught her she could do whatever cause dragon). Addam was honestly one of the decent ones who got screwed over.
Had the old bag just made daemon the king, all of this could have been avoided.
The more I think about Daemon’s death, the more I realize that he had it easy compared to the rest of the Blacks. He lived his life as he pleased since many people feared him and wouldn’t have the courage stop him. He not only had the death of a true warrior & dragon rider, but he was also one of the few people in this war who died on his own terms…he’s the type to want a dragon rider’s death. Just like Laena…
Honestly, unironically, the only House that gained from The Dance was The Tyrells and mainly because they didn't take a part in it. After The Dance, with the weakening of The Hightowers their influence over their bannermen grew increasingly and they managed to become much more influential and strong, till we reach the events of ASOIAF where they have the strngth to make a play to have their decedants sit The Iron Throne. Growing Strong indeed, xD.
Oh definitely, anyone who stayed out did well out of it. I would also argue the Lannisters gain a bit given the slow decline of House Velaryon helped them rise up a bit
@@WorldOfWesteros Yeah, though they lost a lot of men and the lives of Their Lords + The Red Kraken destroyed them for some time tbh.
Margaery being like alicent, Alas cersei was a tad too extremist in her action which actually made things work for her at times
But It also took blackfyre rebellions and weakening of house peake to but tyrells on the top.
@@amritanand8137 house Peak was not strong by the time of the dance any more. It was only a short uprising of Unwin as regent that made them appear stronger than they were but in F&B it is described that they were in decline since the conquest.
Everyone who thinks neither of them won needs the understand that legacy is almost all that's important to the people of this world. Alicent and Otto wanted their bloodline to continue onto the future Targaryen Kings, which in the end, they did not. The future King's of Westeros, even including Robert Baratheon, can all trace their lines back to Rhaenyra and Daemon through their 2nd son, Viserys II. For that reason, I'd say the blacks won.
By legacy the Greens won, by bloodline the Blacks won. Rhaenyra's legacy is that of a pretender, her son inherited, true, but not from her, he inherited from his uncle and then his father. Aegon is the one counted as Aegon II and Rhaenyra is Princess Rhaenyra, the one that wanted to be queen.
Legacy be dammned. A whole family was destroyed and no one truly won.
@@diegonatan6301 And the counterpoint would be that Aegon II was a usurper, Rheanyra was named heir by the King, every vassal bent the knee to her, yet Alicent installed her son as King
Pretty sure Hightower blood continue to run throughout the generations. I think descendant from both sides ended up together.
You literally contradict yourself. If we looks at legacy and the way people remember it, the Greens won. Rhaenyra is remembered a pretender, Aegon is remembered as Aegon II and even Aegon III got the throne as the heir of Aegon II. You are right about legacy being important, not blood, as hence the Greens won
One thing I think is forgotten is that while Aegon’s line died out, the example he set remained. Rhaenyra was forever known as a princess, and after the the deaths of both Daeron and Baelor, Viserys II, Rhaenyra’s own son took the throne, rather than letting his niece rule. It would be Rhaenyra’s line but Aegon’s law
A lot of people overlook this but it’s true, yes fire and blood is a book written by bias maesters, but there is enough contextual evidence such as this theory give an idea of what’s true or not
@@WorldOfWesteros What theory?
@@Raleyg people say the greens all died in that they have nobody left by the end of the dance correct me if im wrong but doesn't aemond in alys rivers have a kid cuz I don't think we know what happened to aemonds kid I think we will know in fire And blood part 2
@@barronbarron6784 Exactly. The last we hear of her is that the regent are planning a campaign against her, but then the Winter Fever strikes and they have to postpone it. The Siege of Harrenhal will likely be the first big action scene of Fire and Blood 2, and would be an excellent opportunity to see notable Kingsguards we haven't been introduced to like the Pale Griffin and the Demon of Darry
@@barronbarron6784 This doesn't matter. So what if Aemond may have had a child? They probably died young, or if the kid lived and had children, then the line died out somewhere along the years. Why do I say this? Because nothing is mentioned about them in canon as far as I know. Therefore, this theory really doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things.
everyone is forgetting one vital piece of lore about the dance. it made the iron law that no female could sit the iron throne while their were male claims to be had. the old king made the rule but the dance put into effect so that whenever some female spoke about her rights, all someone would need to do remind them of the dance and the toll it took it would be instantly shot down. rhaenyra lost short term and long term since never again could a female inherit the throne as long as there were males heirs. this is why dany gets paranoid when she finds out jon is really aegon.
She's not paranoid though. She tells him that they would put them against each other and that's exactly what happened.
Actually the whole thing about female not sitting the iron throne is not a law nor a rule,it’s a precedent,in the books it’s probably more complicated,we don’t even know if Rhaegar Married Lyanna if not then Jon is not a legitimate Targ and we don’t know if fAegon is who he says he is and no way to prove it(might be a blackfyre),so that would make Dany the legitimate heir despite being a woman.
Also Jon actually did have a higher claim to the throne though even if he had been a woman as well. Dany was the youngest child of the mad king, while Jon was the first born child of her oldest brother. Jon by line of succession had the higher claim.
She drew short term.It was her bloodline that continued to rule westeros;not the usurper’s.The dance cementing male primogeniture in westeros was moreso because the realm was still low key sexist about a woman sitting on the throne
@@tellajones5261 Thirdborn. Rhaenys and Aegon might have died, but they still existed.
In the History books: Technically Aegon II and by extension The Greens.
Who unofficially won: The Blacks, Aegon II may be in the history books as King while Rhaenyra as Queen is not, but Aegon II ruled for a 3 short years to where as Aegon III, while miserable and depressed form the fallout of the Dance, ruled for some 26 years as well as every remaining Targaryen king after him was a direct descendant of Daemon and Rhaenyra. Aegon II is the only descendant of Alicent to sit upon the Iron Throne.
Who actually one: All the commoners and Lords who never possessed any dragons. It brought the Targaryens down to mortal status like everyone else, plucked from the almost mythical god like status they were held in before, but like Viserys I said, it’s all an illusion.
this is the best and honest answer.
I've got a question though. What does Viserys mean by "The idea that we control dragon is all am illusion"?
@@ebiakuthompson6756 There family were originally sheep herders. They only became dragon riders after a blood magic ritual.
Very well put indeed.
It doesnt matter how long Aegon 2 ruled. The dance of dragons between greens and blacks was about the civil war with Rhaenyra pretending to be queen of Westeros. And that war ended when the first male parent in line of AEGON 2 (his nephew) married the daughter of AEGON2 again. AT BEST for the blacks, it would be a draw. AT BEST for the greens, they won the dance by killing the pretender Rhaenyra. What happened 1-26-100 years later is not Dance of dragons anymore...
This story is drawn from the Matilda vs. Stephen civil war in English history. All of the lords swore allegiance to Matilda while her father was still alive but upon his death, that changed. Ultimately, Stephen and Matilda made a truce and it was her son, Henry II who ascended the throne after Stephen’s death. Although Stephen reigned, it was the descendants of Matilda who took over. Aegon II’s Iron throne passes to Rhaenyra’s descendants. In the short term, Stephen and Aegon II won their thrones, but the long term rule went to the women’s children. Legacy is absolutely vital to royal households. Lastly, without Rhaenyra there would be no Jon Snow.
"from my blood, come the Prince that was promised"
@@mianadahlia - Damn right 😏🖤🐉🔥
Not the same case
The green case won no woman was ever allowed to rule after the dance and the priority was always to the male,
@@miracleyang3048: Yes, sexism was alive and well in both fictional and non-fictional worlds. In England, males were granted the crown first even if they were the second born after a sister. That did not change until a little while ago with the current Royal family, the Windsors. Although no female Targaryen ruled after The Dance, the future rulers were not the Greens; they were the descendants of the Blacks and like any proud family, they would honour the memory of those they were related to not those who wanted to eradicate their ancestors.
@@roxymcdonald6518
But they didn't
They honoured the memory of Aegon II and he is the king in every history they have, they even considered his number when naming themselves Aegon III was called the third for a reason
Daemon (and Corlys) is the winner of this game. originally this game is a game of two, quite different than Game of Thrones. GoT has so many people betting themselves on the Iron Throne but HoTD is about Otto vs Daemon. since Otto puts Alicent for his pawn, Daemon puts Rhaenyra in. by the end of the game, all of Daemon's children were alive (2 of them are Kings) and his lineage continued for more than a century later.
Yes! Your absolutely correct
But house Targaryen went extinct and house veleryon became a minor house in GOT while house hightower still almost same as before.
Daemon had the last laugh as he dies a heroes death at his old age knowing he saved at least 1 person who was important to him. They thought he would be Maegor the cruel instead he had the respect of the smallfolk and was loyal to his family only retaliating with brutal efficiency one of his own slayed his own kin.
Imagine defending a pedophile who groomed his wife, and had a 6 year old murdered, murders another man to take his wife, and effectively urges Rhaenyras to eliminate houses completely.
Basically yes, Daemon never really wanted the throne I think, he just wanted to be included. He married Rhaenyra, his sone became king, got to sleep around as much as he wanted and died as he lived 🤷🏼♀️
He didn't die then i bet he lived with nettles
@@lawrencereid2767 that's the other theory, that Nettles is Leaf and he's beyond the wall waiting for Bloodraven
Idk. He kinda lost faith in what he was fighting for when Rhaenyra ordered Nettles' death. He also lost a lot of the smallfolks respect when Rhaenyra ruled kings landing. He played both the villain and hero simultaneously
“Nobody wins when the family feuds” - Jay Z
I think the best thing about the dance of the dragons is how it's a perfect encapsulation of the idea that magic in Westeros died out because of the petty squabbles of humans. Same thing can be applied to the near extinction of the weirwoods
I guess the best way to put it is Aegon's side won the battle, while Rhaenyra's side won the war.
Obviously her side didn't win the literal war, Aegon and the Greens defeated the Blacks, but Aegon died less than a year after the war was finished, and ultimately the throne passed on to Rhaenyra's line to her son with Daemon, Aegon the Younger, then again to their second son, Viserys.
Overall though, regardless of whether the Greens or the Blacks won, House Targaryen lost.
Almost all their dragons dead, with the few remaining being small, stunted shadows of the great dragons they had before that would themselves die out completely within a couple of decades.
House Targaryen itself being gutted to the point where only 3 Targaryens were left after Aegon II died, those being Aegon III, his younger brother Viserys, and Aegon II's last living child, Jaehaera, who would become Aegon III's wife.
The Targaryens would eventually recover and even thrive by the turn of the century, but they'd never again sit the throne quite as securely as they did before the Dance. They lost their WMD that kept the other lords of the realm in check, that weapon being their dragons.
Before the Dance, the Targaryens were effectively demi-gods who could quickly destroy any dissent from their vassals by flying to their keeps and bathing them in dragonfire.
Now they were just like any other noble family in Westeros, capable of being overthrown and killed with no retribution in the form of dragonfire.
I think your comment summarises the whole issue perfectly.
No one defeated anyone.
Aegon defeated Rhae not the blacks, riverlords killed last bit of green army and would have killed aegon but his supporters realised his doom and killed him.
The greens didn't beat the blacks though, Cregan stark smashing borros baratheon's army was the final actual battle of the war and he was going to use his 8-12k strong army (yeah there was a huge differentiation historically speaking somehow) to continue it by ruining the 3 main houses aligned with the greens (lannisters, baratheons and hightowers). He only didn't because all 3 surrendered and he enacted judgement upon those he held responsible for aegon II's poisoning. Everyone even tried to calm him down from doing it because with aegon dead, and the blacks firmly in controll of kings landing, they had essentially ended the war
Nobody won the war. That’s the point. And if you really want to put an achievement to it, who sits the iron throne after all of this, Rhaenyras son. BOOM!
No one won the war. In the end they ruined House Targaryen with The Dance. They lost the dragon’s that won them the Seven Kingdoms. I think only 4 survived the Dance at the end, which is about how many Targaryen’s survived as well.
Aegon III grew up being called the Broken King. Because he was traumatized by what he was forced to watch. His mother was eaten by a Dragon, he was a prisoner of his uncle. His whole family died except his half-sisters and Viserys. Though for years he thought his brother died too. I believe it was Cregan Stark who had to convince Aegon III that if he did not claim the throne, even more war would break out between the houses. Imagine explaining that to an Eleven year old?!
Aegon II’s line ended. It’s a shame, he never wanted the throne but was coerced by Criston Cole/Mother. He was injured at his first battle, was healing for a year when Kings Landing was taken. He lived in fear on the same island his sister Rhaenyra ruled, until his dragon came. Then he ‘Won’ a second fight against Moondance that left his paralyzed. Dude was in constant pain because he refused to take Milk of the Poppy anymore. His 2 year rule ended quickly.
I like you take, think it's very well reasoned
Nobody won.
The greens 'won' by killing Rhaenyra and got the throne but basically killed themselves off to do it. Rhaenyra's line got the throne but lost their power and didn't even have dragons. The people lost as they basically died.
Kinda like history
The greens won the battle not the war. Remember there was an army marching towards KL to remove him as he was not the rightful heir.. they were going to send him to the wall.
Bt daemon knows it and he is successful to install his son as a king instead of cup bearers,
Nobody won. The family was left in ruin, which the dragons all but extinct. But I do believe rhaenyra was in the right and alicent started the war for no good reason.
No good reason hundreds of years of andal and valayria law stating firstborn sons inherit over daughters and the law changed by royal degree not by popular opinion. Alicent was rightfully bitter over the whole thing.
@@animejerk05 tbh I found her as disrespectful, and a pawn for her father! I don’t know how the King allowed her to create such a divide without checking her, esp with all the green she was wearing! He should have gotten rid of her at that instant and saved thousands of lives including almost all of his sons. Dragons were lost due to pride, ego, and a want for power.
By the laws of gods and men the Greens were right.
@@animejerk05 as far as we know valyrians had no hang ups on gender, alysanne expected her first born to be heir to the throne, a girl. If you want to talk about hundreds of years of laws, then aegon had no right to the seven kingdoms, or to take a second wife, or for either of those marriages to be to a sibling. Same goes for jahaerys and Alysanne. And viserys’ parents. The only laws that matter are those that can be enforced.
@@jesseandersen4055
the valyrians did care about gender aegon was younger than visenya and yet he was the lord and not her. Alysanne used traditional succession laws to justify becoming queen ahead of aegon the uncrowned daughters and tried to discard them when it no longer suited her.
Rhenyra didn't care about laws when she expected everyone to make her clearly illegitimate children the heir after her. and then throw a tantrum when her younger brother also didnt care about laws
Aegon II won the war but Rhaenyra I won the throne. That's just it...and it is sad how Aegon was just used for the machinations of the Hightowers to usurp the Iron Throne from the pure blooded Targaryens who forged it. In the end, the gods jape on their servers once again, a King who rebelled against her heir apparent sister was left with only a female heir. The Queen whose inheritance was questioned and warred upon had survived and kept several sons of heirs.
Very nicely written
The strongs have entered the "pureblood" chat.
@@dbearded130 May I spoil it for you, two sons of Rhaenyra will be Kings, her grandchildren will be Kings and Queens of the Seven Kingdoms.
If they hadn't rebelled, Jace would've sat the throne. Thanks to the dance, at least pure Targaryens still sat the throne for a while, not until Aegon the Unworthy legitimized his blackfyres.
@@ebiakuthompson6756 I disagree I don’t want the dance of the dragons. It’s full of misery, tragedies and death all over the corners of the story.
Rhaenyra's line continues up to the time of Jon and Dany so there you go
Yes even Robert, Stannis, and Renly were direct descendants from her line as well
Yeah but they're not on the throne tho and the Baratheons loathe the Targaryens. Hightowers are still a plenty. There are only a few of Targs left.
@@isiaharellano3789 a bit closer to it. Almost there.
@@betacross3675 lol until Martin actually finishes the books they're still far from it. Who knows the show ending might be canon just so Martin could troll us 🤣🤣🤣
@@isiaharellano3789 doesn't matter. None of the hightowers sat on the throne after aegon ll which was what they wanted all along
In the big picture I'd say daemon won. He went down in history with one of the greatest dragon battles ever, which the stories say he won. And his sons went on to sit on the throne.
The Tyrells won. They left the entire Kingdom be morons and kill each other while they chilled in Highgarden, not getting themselves killed, not having their crops and towns burn, not having their wealth be squandered in a pointless war that would result in either a Targaryen sitting on the Iron Throne or a Targaryen sitting on the Iron Throne.
your very correct i would also argue house lannister also gained a lot with the decline of house velaryon post war
Growing Strong
"even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty" Stannis Baratheon
That bald loser knows nothing.
Of course a Baratheon would say that when they sided with the greens and Borros Baratheon got himself killed by a guy named Kermit. Kermit's father was named Elmo, how funny.
The realm won since there were no more dragons to be used against it shortly after the dance.
A big message of GRRM‘s story is that war and the monarchy are terrible for the people.
Rhaenyra’s blood may have ended up on the throne but the green’s system of male primogeniture was set in stone after the war-rhaenrya’s own son took the throne over all of his older brother’s daughters as king Viserys II.
I don’t even think it was male primogeniture the greens were fighting for per se but moreso the Hightowers wanted one of their own on the throne.I still think if Alicent gave birth to 4 daughters she still would’ve tried to put her oldest daughter on the throne.
@@rouskeycarpel1436 lol no that’s a reach
@@rouskeycarpel1436 It absolutely was about male primogeniture, because the scenario you're hypothesizing would only solidify Rhaenyra's claim as Viserys' legitimate heir. How can her hypothetical younger sisters usurp her claim? They can't, they'll only be able to if they were wed and bore sons of their own and THOSE sons can rival Rhaenyra's claim. (If we're even arguing about the purity of Targaryen blood, Rhaenyra would easily win over those hypothetical daughters: Aemma's own mother was a Targaryen).
If the Greens weren't fighting for male primogeniture and only wanted one of their own on the throne, then neither the books or the show would put so much emphasis on how Rhaenyra would be a weak-willed or inappropriate ruler for her infidelity, how she's weakened by childbirth, etc. The assassination of her character (in the eyes of the court) as a WOMAN heir is always the first thing they put to question.
Moreover, the rest of the Realm wouldn't even look at Alicent's hypothetical daughters' way because why would they? What would they have that Rhaenyra doesn't, that would be appealing to either commoners or the Houses that back the Targaryens? By the time Alicent's children matures, Rhaenyra will have had her three Velaryon sons, assuring the Realm that she will be succeeded by a King and her heirs are secure.
This war on succession was very much a gendered conflict, in the books and in the show. The precedence Jaeherys and the Great Council established show that when an opportunity to establish an absolute primogeniture arose, it will be rejected.
@@adrestlia if it is male primogeniture… Well, Rhaenyra had a son already so, it has priority over second son without heirs.
@@SouthJerzVillains yeah it is a reach based of his staunch *Blacks* bias, its pretty fascinating how tribal humans can get with who they support no matter the circumstances or evidence, even in fantasy worlds.
Its Daemon and Rhaenyra's bloodline that continued the hierarchy up until Robert anf it would have been a nice ending if Jon or Dany sat on the iron throne. So for the most we could say its the black who won
Lol Rhaenyra last suviving son married Aegon last surviving daughter...so all targaryen after that also have the bloodline of Alicent Hightower.
@@nahtaniel8027 the hierarchy continued from Prince Viserys (King Viserys ii son of Rhaenyra) and Lara Rogare. Rhaenyras son Aegon marriage to Aegons daughter Princess Jaehaera (Alicents grand daughter) was a brocken marriage and never had children
I think that by eliminating the threat of the Others, the world of Westeros doesn't need the Targeryens' protection anymore, therefore, the lineage will end.
@@nahtaniel8027 Bitch what????she died an horrible dead and he married a velaryon lol then his sons where all crazy bitchess and viserys son got the throne
@@nahtaniel8027 Alicent's granddaughter died before she could give Aegon III any children, so Alicent's bloodline was extinguished.
Even if you say Aegon won he was doom to die I mean dude was burn as bad as spawn. Rhaenyra died yes but as long as Aegon 3 was alive the war continues once the lads defeated Borros on the kings road it was all but over for the greens. The black still had 2 fresh army the Vale the North then you had the Riverlands battle hardened veterans. But all together House Targaryen lost there dragons the fear of them burning your castle down was gone..
Aegon II didn't hold the crown for a while after the war. The North, Rhaenyra's allies, were still on their way. His dying ended the war and the Hour of the Wolf is the beginning of the war's aftermath. All of the Dance of the Dragons is told in Fire and Blood under the heading 'The Dying of the Dragons:....' Aegon II's reign is the last chapter under that banner. "The Dying of the Dragons: The Short, Sad Reign of Aegon II." Clearly still including it within the war. The final line of the chapter is 'The Dance of the Dragons was done, and the melancholy reign of King Aegon III Targaryen had begun.' With the following chapter titled 'Aftermath: The Hour of the Wolf.' I apologize if this comes off as pedantic, but stating he held the crown after the war for any amount of time implies a victory of some kind. When at that point the war was still in progress.
Of course, I do agree with you that in the bigger picture nobody won and the Targaryens lost overall. But when comparing only the objectives of both sides at the beginning of the war against what the results were for both sides at the end of the war. It is hard not to consider the Blacks the winner. Both sides' objectives were for their genetic line to continue the Targaryen dynasty. Alicent's line dies out and Rhaenyra's continues. That answers the straight forward question of 'Did the Greens/Blacks achieve their objectives?' Even though technically Aegon III ascended to the throne as Aegon II's heir, he was Daemon and Rhaenyra's son. Based on whose genetic lineage got to continue the Targaryen dynasty and whose genetic lineage did not. Which was the objective of both sides. The Blacks clearly won.
this should be a pinned comment. i completely agree and this was well said.
@@yhulie Thank you, I sincerely appreciate that.
I agree with everything except the fact that Aegon III ascended to the throne as Aegon II's heir kinda means to me the greens technically won and imposed their 'line'...
@@tomasfuleston2065 That's not an unreasonable position at all. I was specifically referring to genetic line. But that's arbitrary on my part. Because GRRM placed enough reasonable arguments on both sides, there truly isn't a wrong answer. It's just perspective. Aegon II's heir or Rhaenyra's blood (& heir)?. GRRM strikes again. Love it.
@@Tyrion2024 but we should remember the hightowers instigated the war to put their line on throne and become major players in kingdoms. They never achieved any of those.
Your map is amazing, where can we view a high-resolution version?
That was really good. Thank you.
I’d be curious to see your opinion on who was right in the Dance of the Dragons. Personally, I think the Blacks. Viserys chose Rhaenyra as the heir. A kings word is law.
The Mad King thought his words were law and thought he could do as he likes too look what happened to him. Viserys said it himself “Even I’m not above laws and traditions”
Tbh, nobody was. Everything was realistically grey
Both sides had an arguably claim and considerable flaws.
Viserys was definitely wrong tho. He went against precedent and 'laws', halfheartedly named Rhaenyra heir (merely insisted but didn't actually do much to ensure she would be accepted), didn't do anything to prevent that rift and basically ignored the growing problems.
Aegon II was king and his world was law
He was a usurper
@@miracleyang3048 Death to the green usurper
No one really wins in war 💯
My dog just died💯
@@DingoAteMyMail my condolences
@UCx3gGVrkgfZj5C1p2_RdDrA the hightowers are doing fine and are still a powerful house. No house really won. They both just lost differently. Rhaenrya is in the history books as a usurper even though the crown was rightfully hers.
Truthfully to me, neither won. The whole point was yes, indeed both sides wanted to sit the throne(and both Princess Rhaenyra and Aegon II did), but neither one was able to KEEP IT.
IT'S similar to the English War known as the "Anarchy", Empress Matilda (I think was her name) of Normandy(I think) wanted the English throne & she could have gotten it, had it not been for her 18 yo MALE cousin 18 years of war followed, SHE lost the war, cause SHE was never able to sit the throne(but I belive like Rhaenyra her son took the throne, and her bloodline did)
My point here is for me, I see a "Grey" area. Both did indeed sit the throne, but neither kept it(Rhaenyra's bloodline kept the throne, but that's the grey area)
Kinda sad that the dragon towers (as I call the Hightower targs) died out. They could have been useful & helpful down the road
There is nothing sad about your Dragon towers' deaths; Alicent deserved to see her bloodline wiped out for starting an ultimately needless war.
@@Abdul-Akeem_Akinloye but Helaena & her kids were INNOCENT, THATS MY POINT, alicent is debatable for me(only with how she was early on) her father had it coming,
But the true "Dragons Tower's" were Helaena & her children. They were innocent, they didn't deserve to be wiped out
*& even then, u never pin the sins of the parents on the children*
@@redadmiralofvalyria867 You know what? I agree with you. The children of Alicent, including Aemond One-Eye, who I absolutely despise, did not deserve to get caught up in a needless and bloody family feud set up by their mother and grandfather.
The point I was trying to make is that I do not feel -a- an ounce of sympathy for Queen Alicent, and feel overjoyed that she got to see the disastrous results of her actions: all her children dead, and her bloodline extinguished. I am not celebrating her children and grandchildren's deaths, per se. I am celebrating, exulting, over Alicent's loss of her loved ones, all caused by her greed for power.
P.S. The Blood and Cheese incident marks prince Daemon Targaryen as a villain for me. The true _bastard_ in the family though was King Viserys I, who allowed things in his family to deteriorate so much that no one from either of the two sides of his family loved any member of the other side. He is truly one of the worst Targaryen kings. Aegon IV takes the title, though.
P.P.S. Alicent's fate brings me joy, and it should do the same for you, too.
@@Abdul-Akeem_Akinloye uhhhhhh, wow, u have to be the only person to EVER respectful agree with me on this. Many fans I've seen are rather........bloody in the treatment of the "dragon towers" cause they see this opinion of mine as "proof of justification" (meaning I somehow supported the greens usurpation of the throne) or "they're all greens, aegon & his WHOLE FAMILY deserved what they got)(mind u this would indeed include Queen Helaena & her children)
But yes, I do agree that seeing her die will be great(she like many villains in history will see how this tower she/they built come crashing down, and kill all who r in it) and her acknowledging that this WHOLE THING, was on her will be great(especially when she realizes it's in her)
P.s: I personally blame Otto though, whether or not his intentions were good or he wanted a "peaceful solution" he made alicent into him, and he only saw himself as right(so it only makes sense once he sees himself in Alicent, that he truly be by her side)
@@Abdul-Akeem_Akinloye but yes, daemon fucked up everything by escalating it cause what I'm wanting to know is what RHAENYRA thought of her nephews death(seeing how she wished for her sister Helaena & her kids spared in the beginning)
The Greens did. The War ended with an heir to Viserys through the male-only line.
The greens aimed for their lineage on throne and Rhae lineage on drgaonstone, but Rhae lineage ended up taking both of them.
I disagree with the notion of the Green having won the war after Aegon ii killed Rhaenyra. For one his rule was opposed by 3 of the 7 kingdoms and he just suffered a major defeat at in the Reach(2nd Battle of Tumbleton). Add to that the Blacks had Rhaena Targaryen(daughter of Daemon and Laena) in their custody at the Vale. Should Aegon iii have ben killed they could've easily put her up as a candidate for the throne with the intention to kill Aegon ii(similar to what Robb Stark initially wanted to do with Joeffrey before he was declared King in the North), and she had a Dragon(albeit recently hatched) which worried the likes of Alicent. It's why when Aegon ii folishly decided to continue the war the Blacks had no problem to wage war and didn'tt bother to sue for peace unlike the Greens who readily accepted peace after the Blacks seized Kings Landing.
Baela and Rhaena have no right on the Iron Throne as long Aegon is alive. Daemon children can't overpass the eldest son of Viserys. They would have had no support to do so. Let's be honest, the war ended because the Greens accepted it, they did'nt sue for peace : Corlys sent raven to Casterly Rock, Oldtown and Storm's End and he did it because he knew they were still dangerous, particularly Oldtown. Let's say the Hightowers refused this peace : neither the starving northern army nor the Riverlords would not have been able to continue the war against them. No one won, but if the war had continued, the Blacks could never have won it.
@@alessiodandolo1460 I disagree the Blacks could merely eliminate whatever Greens remained similar to what Robb Stark initially intended to do with Joffery(kill him and put Tommen on the throne) before his true parentage was known. The Greens were even more weakned given the Ironborne raids onnthe Westerlands, the destruction of the Stormlands army(they are out of the war) which left the Hightowers and their allies against at least 3 major Black armies including the massive Northern host. Keep in mind the Blacks also had allies in the Reach. Imo I think if war continued it would've dragged on and some other settlment would've been reached. Many of the Blacks and Greens supported their preffered side for a whole host of reasons a lot of which had little to do with who was the rightful heir.
@@frankincensemerchant1284 Pure invention of you my friend : Robb Stark has no plan for Joffrey or Tommen, neither in the book, nor in the show. His only plan is to force Cersei to free his father. In the book, he is very perturbated by the idea of revolting against Joffrey, whom he considers as the legitimate king. And even if that were the case, the two situations are not comparable, because Rhaena is a girl from the younger branch, Aegon a male from the eldest branch. Rhaenyra gained support thanks to the oath that hundreds of lords took before her and thanks to her status as a king's daughter, Rhaena has neither, and after the chaos of the Dance of Dragons, no one would have fought for a girl's rights. Remember that during the Regency, simply viewing Baela as her half-brother's heir is extremely problematic, even for former Blacks.
Now, about the war : Borros Baratheon has taken 4000 men to King's Landing, because he wanted to retake the city quickly, but the forces of the Stormlands are much more numerous than that. They are not broken. As for the Lannisters, I grant you that they are very busy with Dalton Greyjoy, but remember that during the War of the Five Kings, they raised two huge armies in a few weeks, and even a third after their first defeat, so they have still many forces able to fight. Don't forget their financial strength and the portion of the royal treasure they hold.
In the Reach, the Blacks are destroyed : the Honeywine, the conquest of the Reach by Ormund Hightower, the siege of Longtable, the sack of Bitterbridge, the first battle of Tumbelton. It's over for them. Oldtown is able to raise and feed a large army very quickly, according to Martin himself. The Hightowers seized all the food during the war, they have a fleet, the support of the Redwynes, they have a quarter of the royal treasure, and even without, they are the undisputed richest house in Westeros at this point.
Cregan Stark has an army of 10 000 men, but nothing to feed them during a long war. The Riverlands are burnt so they can't provide food. Most important : the Blacks have no financial ressources, that's one of the reasons of Rhaenyra's demise. Besides, who can believe a word Cregan Stark says ? The guy didn't fight a single battle, spent the entire war hiding in Winterfell when Rhaenyra was alive. He's not going to put his life in danger now that she's dead. He's just a blusterer !
Conclusion : could the Blacks win a battle against Aegon's allies ? Perhaps with luck. But they are unable to wage a long war against wealthiest and more powerful houses with impregnable seats. Corlys Velaryon knows it, that's why he sends raven to Aegon's allies, and that's why everyone in King's Landing fears the answer of the Hightowers.
@@alessiodandolo1460 Rhaenyra didn't call on Cregan to bring his full army down untill Kings Landing rioted andbthe same with the Arryns plus Cregan's host was is estimated to be between 10k-20k. As for the Lannisters raising two big hosts in the War of the Fuve Kings then that's irrelevant as it happened more than a century after the Dance and they dynamics were very different by then. You are also forgetting the Arryns who are largely untouched. Now regarding the Reach yes the Hightowers control but only by razor thin margin, with Black forces now being succesful those areas would've revolted and we know in pitched battles WITHOUT Dragons the Blacks far outperform the Greens. Now the seiges is where I give it to you hence why imo it would've ultimately been a stalemate. But as for Cregan he wasn't afraid of war in fact not long after the Civil War he repelled amjor wildling invasion with the Mountain Clans. Also the Stormland forces were 6000 at the time which was a big chunk of their forces that got decimated. Remember we are tlaking about nunbers for the Dance of the Dragon not the War of the Five Kings which takes a century and a half later. Also Robb Stark did entertain the idea of taking put Joffery(post Ned Stark execution) and putting Tommen on the throne. When I say many Lords picked sides for other reasons a good example is Borros Baratheon who picked the Green side due to getting marriage proposals. I am willing to bet that a lot of the major Reach lords that choose Rhaenyra did so in part to counter the rising Hightower infleunce. In short while the Greens have the economic advantage they didn't have the military advantage especially if one looks at their track record in pitched battles without Dragons(The Riverland forces many at times would defeat Green armies via superior tactics).
@@frankincensemerchant1284 Cregan's host is probably around 10k, perhaps a little more or a little less, but again, to wage a war, you need financial ressources and you need food, and the Blacks have none, except from the Vale but in winter, they don't represent a real threat for the Greens. If the Riverlords are still able to fight after what they went through in the war (even if it seems to be a plot armor for the Blacks) then so can the Lannisters, Hightowers and Baratheons, let's be logical.
Cregan Stark is typically the character Martin has fun with and with which he deliberately deceives the reader. Everyone persists in seeing him as a great, charismatic warrior when everything, absolutely everything in his actions tells us otherwise. The reader is fooled by two elements : the character's outward appearance, very imprecise in its description by the way, and the fact that he is a Stark. For the rest, clues to its true nature abound : He takes more than two years to intervene, he arrives precisely when there are no more dragons to fight (exactly like Borros Baratheon), he manages to arrive after the Riverlords, he talks about continuing a war even though he does not have the human and material ressources, he threatens Corlys Velaryon but gives up as soon as Alyn Velaryon threatens in turn, he talks about executing everyone but only executes two people, he gives up his charge at the end for a day to let Tyland Lannister, the most loyal member of the Green Council, rule the kingdom. In the end, the guy did absolutely nothing except wait, talk and threaten in vain, but always managing to preserve his image.
The Blacks could line up a hundred thousand men on the battlefield and it wouldn't change anything. They don't have the material resources. The Hightowers have the gold, the food and the ability to recover from defeat much more quickly.
I think the show will do something different with Jaehaera’s death and they will have her die a big sooner while Alicent is still alive or they might make Alicent live slightly longer for her to hear the news that her last living descendant is dead. I think that will serve as one symbolic poetic justice of what scheming can cause devastation to your family. I think that the final death in her family will truly break Alicent and make her realize that her and her fathers plan did not come to fruition and it cost the lives of her loved ones. Because after the war, she was locked up and spending the rest of her days in Maegor’s Holdfast because her allies had turned on her and her son Aegon. She was in captivity because Tyland Lannister, a Green, wanted protection for the new regime of Aegon III, a Black. She died completely powerless than she ever was and she would have to bear the thought that even though her son wouldn’t have been the king of westeros, at least he and the rest of her children and grandchildren maybe would have been alive had they let Rhaenyra just ascend the throne without conflict. The show should defintley let Alicent still be alive during Jaehaera’s death becuase that would be a lot more poetic and hard hitting to watch that final domino of your family die in front of your eyes. And think about it the war completely decimated the entire Green faction within 4 years 129AC-133AC. So the Greens, in my opinion, definitely did not win because their goal itself was not to make sure that everyone goes by male precedent, that was just their main weapon of legitimization of their claimant Aegon to take the throne. The real ambitions of Otto and Alicent were for the Hightowers to become more powerful through the Targaryen-Hightower line to rule the Iron throne forever. The Dance of Dragons was all about the battle of the bloodline. And they completely lost that goal because thanks to their plotting their line was decimated within a pathetic 4 year timespan and Rhaenyra’s bloodline triumphed but at a great cost because the dragons went extinct but the blacks at least prevailed over the Greens and their personal pursuit of the dominating bloodline.
A lot of what you said really makes sense
Opinion: I almost feel pity for him because his reign was absolutely miserable. He was unconscious for a good half of it and then the other half he was in constant physical agony and lost all his family members. I almost feel sorry for him but I can’t help thinking he brought it on himself in a way. Surprisingly from reading the lore, he’s not the worst member of the Greens. His mother, Ser Criston Coke, Larys Strong we’re awful. He actually was going to do the right thing but was manipulated out of it. That is where my sympathy draws in because he didn’t want to do it from the beginning and was actually doing the right thing by obeying his fathers wishes unlike the rest of the Greens that betrayed Viserys as soon as he drew his last breathe. In that way I can say he was loyal to his father even though their relationship isn’t much specified in the books. He was probably thinking that in his last moments that if he had not taken the throne then his children wouldn’t be dead and he wouldn’t be a severely burned cripple. I bet most of the Greens in the end we’re experiencing high forms of regret. Especially since they didn’t even win in the end. The war was about which bloodline would come out on top and it was Rhaenyra’s. And to add insult to injury he was betrayed by his own men, not that I feel sorry for him on that, but that’s just pitiful to go through all that trouble to be sold out by your own men and knowing that as your dying your enemy wins because the matter of succession went through Rhaenyra’s children not his. Even though he’s a despicable character, his ending almost makes you feel sorry for him. ALMOST (for me)
But the fact is at the end of the Dance, House Hightower is by far the richest house on the continent and had preserved its wealth, influence and power in Oldtown. We can't say that the Blacks won because they fought to keep their oath to Rhaenyra and failed as she is considered as a pretender who lost when Aegon is considered as the rightful king, even by Rhaenyra's descendants or former supporters. I would say that nominally the Greens won because the real cause of the war is the succession of Viserys, not the bloodline for the next century. For the rest, no one really won.
Nobody won. Aegon III was depressed, lost parents and beloved half brothers. All Alicent's children and grandchildren were dead. Seven Kingdoms was destoyed
No one won the war. Magic died out as the dragons went extinct, so less (fewer -the Mannis) people in King's Landing could practice fire burning magic or juggling hot knives to impress Lord Flea Bottom
Exactly. And the knowledge of the survival of the White Walkers became almost permanently lost until Rhaegar. I would not be surprised if the ending of this show zooms away to the far north and shows the Night King opening his cold, blue eyes.
There were dragons that survived the dance but they were small and weak. The death of Rhaenys and Rhaenyra is directly tied to the decline of dragons.
While it's debatable which greatly diminished side 'won' the Dance of the Dragons, the poor smallfolk of the Riverlands certainly suffered the most.
and the dragons
The only thing the Dance of Dragons did was ensure the extinction of the most magnificent creature in their world & sow the seeds of the downfall of the Last Dragonriders from Old Valyria. You are right, no one won.
Unwin Peake, Alyn Velaryon, and any high lords who never fought a battle won the war, everyone else lost
@@raphaelostrowski6336 im very excited for Unwin Peake in particular, he starts the war as a nobody with like 800 men and ends it with a Valyrian steel sword and as hand of the king, with almost a royal marriage
@@chrisrubin6445 And despite all the shenanigans they are involved with over the centuries, by the time of the War of the Five Kings, the Peakes have yet to be extinguished as a House.
@@Abdul-Akeem_Akinloye i wonder if some Peake out there somewhere has OrphanMaker
@@chrisrubin6445 Hmm. I can't say. We do know there is at least one Peake across the narrow sea plotting with the Golden Company to sit fAegon on the throne. The Peakes should have been wiped out, for their unflinching support for House Blackfyre, especially after causing the death of Aegon's V's dad (I can't remember his name).
You know since Cregan had the strongest army at the end of the Dance he could've just strolled in and said the North is free. Who would stop him?
His honor.
They had a couple of Dragons left like Morning.
@@mori1bund LOL. Basically.
he made a Pact with Jacaerys Velaryon that he would seat Rhaenyra or her heirs on the iron throne
@@raphaelostrowski6336 this is very wrong 😂
Regardless of who won, House Targaryen lost. Not only did their family become more divided than ever, but more importantly they lost their ultimate power: dragons. If enough dragons had survived to carry on the species in Westeros, countless rebellions might never have happened.
"It was the dragons we bowed to, and now the dragons are dead!" - Greatjon Umber
Daeron the daring would’ve made an excellent king
why? because he was handsome, had a dragon, and never direclty commited any atrocities? he failed to stop his army raping tumbleton when he had a dragon, failed to stand up to Unwin Peake or Hugh and Ulf, and in the end he died achieving nothing but ravaging the reachlands and getting his family killed
He might have been cut 😭
@@Liverpool-Thedirtyredteam hopefully not , but it does seem to be going that way
Greens have won. Aegon II showed mercy to Rhaynera’s children,while blacks killed his first son and were the reason his second died. Only thanks to him Targaryens survived
If Greens didn't have any ambition and let Rhaenyra succeed as Queen as per her father's wish, there wouldn't be any war at the start. But in the next generation, when it's time for Jacerys Velaryon/Strong to succeed Rhaenyra, this would be a similar situation to Game of Thrones' Joffrey succeeding Robert Baratheon.... Daemon's sons Aegon III and Viseys II would start a war against Jacerys just like Stannis and Renly. Bastard's rule will be challanged by true born heirs. In this situation Aegon II and Aemond would support Aegon III and Viserys II anyway.
No one won because alicent did this to protect her family but they all die and rhaenerya wanted to rule from the iron throne but she dies and the history book never consider her a ruler, she is remembered as a tyrant. In end, after this Targaryen could never flourish like before. The bloodline ends with Danny. At the end of the day, a stark is sitting on the iron throne. I think it’s pretty good like this. Shows how all of their greed and ego lead to their own doom. Feel bad for the kids though.
the maesters won in the end. But if somehow George finishes winds i want Euron Crow’s Eye to destroy old town and start the damn apocalypse.
Easy way that would have avoided dance of dragons was to vote between aegon II and rhaenrya as did king jaehaerys did with viserys and rhaenys
No it won't. The great council votes had an overwhelming majority in favor of viserys. Rhaenyra/aegon votes would certainly be an almost even result. Which would be a civil war either way.
Yes but for that to even work Viserys had to call that great council whilst he held the crown, the claimants can't call a great council vote because they would just fight it out.
Viserys was weak and he caused the dance despite his loyalty to his first wife's daughter
Greens won in the short-term, winning battles and support amongst those to dethrone Rhaenyra.
Blacks won in the long-term, while Rhaenyra didn’t sit very long, her line will continue to sit the throne while Aegon's died out
On top of GRRM's anti war stance, I think an interpretation could be made for opposition to WMDs as well in the form of the dragons. Nuclear weapons in our world have great staying power but in the hands of multiple parties they can only unleash mutually assured destruction, a weapon that destroys both sides not only digs at the true horror of war but also in the depth of atrocity and horror of its tools
This is the most interesting answer, amid all the predictable military and royal family legacy based analyses.
Notice that dragons (WMDs) and Targs to ride them do not come back into the picture until there is another destructive threat that they in a way balance or counter, In Dany's time. Fire counters Ice. But waiting in the wings is the Greenseer/ Earth power that will balance out the seasons and reset the whole truce with the Childen.
*Bran may turn into a tree hive mind person with nothing human left, but he might just be the ruler Westeros needs.*
@@eric2500 No more terrible wars and endless death for cruel petty kings and lords,just one true king was duty as protector of the realm will never truly end.
I think it is pretty simple really. Rhaenyra's faction won. It is their line that ultimately goes on to become the royal line. Her and Daemon's sons and heirs will go on to rule. Their line continues on the throne until Aerys is overthrown and, of course, Jon and Dany are the 7x Great Grandchildren of Daemon and Rheanyra.
Ageon 3 ended up marrying daughter of Ageon 2 so you cant say only the blacks won
@@manavkhandurie3591 his daughter died without having any children so Aegon 2 line is finished
@@harshagrawal1056 yea that marriage was done to only finish the war .
@@manavkhandurie3591 Nope, war was over when battle of kingsroad happened and every last of man of green army died. Greens had no army, nothing left. Blacks had 30000 men remaining in army, all green supporters were pardoned. Aegon 3 was coronated and then the war was over and corlys suggested to marry them to combine both lines to which aegon 3 agreed on his own will but then she died as well.
@@manavkhandurie3591 As far as milatary battles are concerned blacks won decisively, they just had a stupid commander over them. They won the final battle left green defenceless and if aegon 2 dared to kill aegon 3, they would have beheaded him in front of whole kingdom and placed daemon daughter on throne. But the council realised it and poisoned him for the good.
Essentially after the Targaryens branched off with the main line, some of the power players in the current timeline are descendants of Rhaenyra and Daemon. The Martells are descended from them through Princess Daenerys daughter of Aegon IV, the Baratheons through Princess Rhaelle Targaryen, and the direct Royal line themselves.
aegon defeted Rhaenyra in personal fight for throne but Blacks won overall in the end, all kings later until Mad King are from their branch of family (Rhaenyra - Daemon) not Viserys
I would argue the greens are the ones who won. In the end nobody wanted a queen and it's funny that rhaenyra was only able to rule through her blood line because there were no more male heirs from the greens. Even rhaenyras heir was a male.
Well, there's a right choice... So long as you're not picking the greens.
Prior to HOT D, Rhaenyra was the most popular character from the Dance Era. I think once the show aired, it's Daemon gaining popularity while Rhaenyra and Criston are losing theirs'.
prior to HOT D daemon was the most popular character what are u talking about daemon had the most backstory, the best ending and he even had a short story written about him plus he was grrm favorite character so he got special attention. before HOT D the community just saw rhaenyra as a raging bitch to be honest as she never participated in any war and watched as her son and dragon died even tho i she flew her dragon she would have killed all the would be dragon slayer and lastly she turned on most of her allies and began seeing enemies everywhere its a reason y she is only remembered as a curse in the current story. BTW the curse is Maegor tits and maegor was one of the most brutal and hated king
Not sure what you mean, Daemon has always been pretty popular
Nah, Rhaenyra is dope AF. 😏 lol Her & Daemon are honestly the perfect couple, besides the whole, er, well, incest & whatnot. But truly their chemistry is outta this world in the show. They picked perfect actors to capture the spirit of these characters for sure.
@@KabbalahSherry in the books as a couple we didnt have alot of information on their relationship tho actually i would say they didnt really even spent time together because daemon always slept with whores and another dragon rider instead of her and she was even quoted to say let daemon eat as he likes when talking about him sleeping with whores and as time went on he even left her for another dragon rider. then when she ordered the dragon rider to die daemon freed her then went off and died in the most baddass way, he didnt even see his wife before he died
Daemon was always the most popular because he was the most complex. You couldn't tell if he was a hero, a villian or an anti-hero.
Daemon won life for being an absolute CHAD. Married 3 wives( incest included) ,conquered a bunch of cities including King's Landing, killed a bunch of people(more than he needed because warcrimes are fun lol),never kissed anybody's ass and refused to play politics. He knew that the Hightowers were leaches and he hated every single one of them because purely because they were beta politicians instead of badass dragonlords. Even in his final moments he "died" beating the langest dragon in the world in fair combat proving that him and Caraxes were in fact just superior. His children sat in the iron throne and tales of him as the greatest dragon rider to ever fly are told to this day
rhaenyra was able to have sex with criston, harwin and daemon (they're hot af), was able to enjoy life and to ascend the iron throne for a short time. she died a badass cursing aegon Ii while Sunfyre was bathing her in flames. and her line succeeds in the ends
Rheanyra’s boy that witnessed her death was the one that ended up in the throne , after aegon died at the end
Aegon III or Aegon the younger sat on the iron throne. Anybody can read fire and blood.
Dance Of The Dragon Consists Of Many Rivalries Between the Blacks and The Greens.
Aegon II Beat Rhaenyra By Becoming The Ruler And Burning Her.
Rhaenyra Beat Alicent By Continuing The Bloodline On The Iron Throne After The Dance, By Aegon III.
Daemon Beat Otto. By Daemon’s Blood Being The One To Remain On The Iron Throne, By Aegon III.
Hightowers Beat Velaryons. By Putting A King Of Their Own Family On The Iron Throne, By Aegon II.
The Blacks Beat The Greens. By Aegon III Being The Last King Remaining.
hightowers & valaryons it's hard to say , both houses ended up declining, both houses got daughters into the position of royal consort , 1 before the dance & 1 after the dance , at the conclusion of the dance it really depends whether you put it with the death of rheanera or the end of the fighting , whether aegon II closely advised by hightowers or aegon III closely advised by valaryons have which house come out better placed at that point
whar map did you use for the background of this video?
I'd personally say the starks won, they marched down, held the capital, executed greens, and fucked off back home after completing what they set out to do
The all of the other great houses in Westeros won in this civil war. The civil war allowed for the surviving houses to have a potentially increased chance of acquiring the iron throne or gained more power as a result of the civil war. Never before this conflict could any of the houses in Westeros imagined ever being able to go against the house of the dragons but now with dragons becoming endangered/(soon to be extinct until Danny) it was a possibility. Also because the Targaryen family could not really one dragons as much as they did great houses with huge and powerful armies needed to be kept loyal and this was a dramatic power shift from the crown to the lords whom controlled those armies. I strongly believe that the only reason that the Targaryens were not removed earlier was because of loyalty, political alliances, and improved technology of wildfire but again I don’t think they had as much power as before this time period. Dragons should have been given to the heir of the throne alone, not split between two families that wound have prevented this situation and I always felt that the targaryens were idiots for not being able to think of that problem.
this was a great question!!! and to be honest there isnt a straight forward answer to it
1) either rhenyra or aegon would have been terrible, i love that the show and the book highlight this, (particularly aegon) they both have redeeming qualities as leaders and both have problems
2) in terms of victory i feel that aegon won the battle but lost the war, he won the battle by taking down rhenyra but lost because fundamentally his last relative became a political pawn
3) but also rhenyra lost because her family and legacy was completely wrecked (i think thats what she cares about the most )
She won her and daemon line produce jon snow and dany and her son sits on the throne it just costed her life that’s all.
@@tevincollins2869 thats one perception, she didn't win because she died before aegon 2 and historically the books follow his lead as he is clear that his sister be remembered as princess
It was also written specifically to be ambiguous there is no clear winner
@@tevincollins2869 Getting eaten by her own dragons doesnt sound like winning.
@@bobafett9348 It was aegon dragon, also when enemy army is at gate, getting poisoned by your own supporters isn't winning either. Lads, starks and vale would have slaughtered last one of aegon family, if he killed aegon 3, princess rhaena daemon child was in vale, she would have sat the throne then.
@@sockmonkeyjg I agree that Rhae lost but blacks didn't, they would have if the black loyalists bent the knee, Aegon 2 was named the king and also the usurper. Blacks would have killed him and place Aegon 3 on throne when the council did a wise thing by poisoning him. The battle of kingsroad is part of war. Rhaeneyra lost but the blacks won the war.
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I would say Rhaenyra and Desmond. Yes they died and Aegon II became king. But think about it. After that Aegon died, their son Aegon became king. Every Targaryen King that came after (even Robert Baratheon) were all descended from their line. Seems to me their legacy lasted longer.
Desmond?
@@harukrentz435 autocorrect. I meant Deamon
And this is without talking about how Aegon II died
Blacks Won.
-Rhaenyra’s 2 sons become kings.
-Aegon II left with only a female descendant. The same reason the Greens are “fighting” for.
-Hightowers plot to power didn’t happen all the way to robert’s reign.
For me Cregan won He gets to execute lots of ppl, established a reputation in one day and be remembered for it, refused to elaborate, went home.
If the theory of Oldtown’s Grand Maesters and Faith Militants or High Septons plotting to kill the dragons then I guess they also won.
The greens technically won because they were advocating for the first male in line to inherit the throne. Aegon III was next after Aegon II died, so while people would say the blacks won, I think the greens won really. But I think that's really the beauty of these stories in ASOIAF, it's really how you interpret it. The blacks won, the greens won, Daemon won, and the maesters won. So much bloodshed just to end up right back to where Jahaerys left us with his council of 101 ac.
Rhaenyra and Daemon won the dance for me.
Overall I'd say the major vassals (Baratheon Stark Lannister...) won. The war was costlier for some than others, but with house Targaryen so diminished, the pressure on major nobles was not as strong as it used to be and, in time, they would have the throne itself within their reach. The threat of dragons burning down their halls was gone.
Other winners for the same reason : Dorne, the Free Cities and the White Walkers. We don't know how the WW invasion is supposed to happen, but I imagine an invasion at the height of House Targaryen would have been devastated by all those dragons.
Baratheons suffered a lot of loss through the Dance. Hard to say they came out on top in the aftermath.
@@carsonc3314 But they got the last laugh on the Targaryens. Which would not have been possible if the dragons had all been killed.
@@Duke_of_Lorraine Yeah, like...150 years later. Not directly after the conflict. Bottom-line is house Baratheon was almost left in a succession crisis.
I honestly was rooting for the greens, but then watching HOTD I'm now sad knowing that Rhaenyra will die. Damn you Martin!
To be fair the journey I went if reading fire and blood was flipping between sides until I realised both sides suck and commit horrific acts against each out.
Can you do what happened to Alicent hightower
Basically she lost her mind and she was locked as a prisoner in the Maegor's Holdfast for the rest of her life. (She once terrified her own granddaughter Jaehaera by suggesting she slit Aegon's throat.) Oh, and she began to hate the green color... lol
@@luminaratano3935 damn... what a downfall
@@luminaratano3935 Yeah. Cregan gave her a fitting punishment, imo, and a twist on her name - locking her in a "high tower" to face her crimes and go mad from her grief and guilt. Starks can be downright ruthless with their punishments when they need to be.
@@ladygrey7425 Didn't Tyland confine her to the holdfast?
@@luminaratano3935 I already loathe her in the show. Can't wait to see her downfall. 🤣
Her actress, Olivia Cooke, is doing a great job.
It kinda reminds me of the Clone Wars from Star Wars. In a way the Republic won but really no one really won. The Jedi were destroyed, the CIS crushed and demonized, the Outer Rim and Core worlds traumatized and war torn, and the Republic crumbled and became the Empire. Really the only one who won was Palpatine and several of his sycophants. Dance of the Dragons is clearly meant to be a warning that war usually has no real winners, soldiers and civilians suffer and die, nations and ecosystems are left broken, and the true winners are those who use the chaos to further their own ends, like Littlefinger or Palpatine do. Definitely hyped to see how season 2 of HOTD handles this war, it’s gonna be a traumatizing treat to be sure.
You are absolutely right! And I think that´s also what GRRM tries to tell...
Rhaenyra lost the battle but the black won the war.
Still in Fire and Blood, Aegon II is listed in the lineage in the appendix and Rhaenyra is not. So, to maesters and for most Westerosi and even Aegon III himself (who didn’t strike out “the second of his name” from his uncle who killed his mother), Aegon II is deemed the victor, however short-lived.
It was battle to see who's line would sit the throne. It his her line that gave rise to future kings and queens including Jon and Danny. Just because he killed her doesn't mean the war was over because the Riverlands abd tge Nortg werw still marching towards KL to fight him and remove him. He may have won the battle but ultimately lost the war as his line was ended.
The death of Rheynera and Rheaneys is directly tie to the decrease in dragons. also all targs are Dragon’s but not all targs are dragons.
@@whisky_icarus8731 if you are using the criteria that whose children live to tell the tale then it is indeed Rhaenyra's children who survived and then Aegon II's went extinct. What I am trying to say is, in terms of political legitimacy, Aegon II's was considered legitimate even by Rhaenyra's children and children's children. Now that the children sat on the throne and told the tale, they could have named Aegon the Elder as an ursruper or have struck out his title, or have done 'damnatio memoriae' stuff, to assert the legitimacy of Rhaenyra and themselves. Instead, they did not and left the maester write Aegon **II** as it is.
@@syb5242 Victor is deemed after the war, Aegon 2 is called a usurper, so is Robert baratheon, Robert the king couldn't change the history himself. The hightowers influence the citadel nd maesters. The war wasn't over till battle of kingsroad in which each green soldier was decimated and blacks were coming for aegon 2. A victor without a army, seriously and remember aegon 3 pardoned the green faction not the black for supporting greens. So black victory all the way.
Rhayneras offspring became the kings of Westeros for the next two centuries. Alicents offspring all immediately died out.
Well, both of their kids sat on the throne.! (Alicents and Rhaynera's)
Depending on when you decide when the dance of the dragons ends determines who won, like after all the fighting the greens won but the dance wasn’t really over since the Starks showed up and put a black on the throne
They didn’t put a black on the throne, lol. Aegon II had named Aegon III as his heir. Aegon II died, Aegon III became king. Even patriarchy was followed, since Aegon III was named the king’s heir since he was Daemon’s firstborn son. It’s a happy coincidence, for the Blacks, that Aegon III had Rhaenyra as his mother. Had Daemon’s son with Laena survived, he would have become the king as DEAMON’s firstborn son.
@@leykimayri not really
Aegon was forced to name Aegon III the heir
@@leykimayri Aegon 2 was marrying borros daughter to produce new heir and remove aegon 3 untill Lord tully slayed borros and they all would have slayed Aegon 2 as well, so his supporters realised they were doomed and poisoned him. Even by your interpretation Daemon won.
@@user-my4lf4bx6v He only accepted once it was promised he'd marry his daughter, so I would say a compromise was made, not that he was forced, lol
@@amritanand8137 Daemon won? He felt off a dragon from hundreds of feet up in the air down on the water and became fish food himself, lol, so where is the winning, again?
The blacks won the war. Lord cragen stark ended the war by taking kings landing in rhaenyra's name. That's the only way to look at it.
“No longer certain that one ever does win a war am I” ~master yoda
Cregan Stark singlehandedly won the war for her dead Queen. Truly the starks are honourable men who should have ruled the Seven Kingdoms instead.
Isn't the Blackfyre Rebellion considered The Dance of Dragons? Cause that's what I have always thought of, even during the GOT show.
I have seen others have this view and I think maybe very early on before the dance and blackfyre rebellions were properly fleshed that was kinda the impression that’s given. But as of now the blackfyre rebellions and the dance are two distinct conflicts with with the name the dance of the dragons meaning the dragons physically fighting in the sky and it looking like a dance. It gets confusing with the title of the 5th book A dance with dragons where the title is more metaphorical. Honestly this is something I hadn’t really tv Kuhn a lot before now.
I love the fact that the starks decided to join after the fact 😂😂😂
The thumbnail is hilarious to me. Ive never imagined Aegon 2 as being a jacked dude
When you read the book at first you think the greens won when Aegon kills Rhaenyra. But I realized that they lost when you consider that Aegon had already been mutilated by dragonfire and fled the throne, and he proceeds to lose the war and be poisoned by his own. Plus in the long term, their line ends while that of the blacks continues. Yet I respect the argument that both lost at least in the short term for the high price on both sides. Truly a Shakespearean tragedy
Aegon in the 💚🍏💚 wins when his dragon killed Rhaenyra he ended the dance in destroyed the blacks🖤🍎 faction daemon died with aemond
@@barronbarron6784 are you nuts, daemon and rhaneyra dying doesn't change the victory, people die in war, the lads were there to slit aegon 2 when he was poisoned. All green supporters bent the knee to lads.
@@amritanand8137 are you British or Australia I never heard an American use the word lads before just curious 🤨
@@barronbarron6784 They riverlords army were called the lads, after their victory at kingsroad.
Aegon won the battle, Rhaenyris won the war.
Maesters won because it led to the extinction of the Dragons
In the short-term it was the blacks that won . But in the long term it made house Targaryan weak without Dragons so the high lords of westeros won . It made it easier to challenge the royal family and we all know how that story ends.
For all who say rhaenrya won because her son aegon III sat the throne you are correct but when it comes to the bloodline legacy of both targaryen branchs they both won as aegon III married his cousin jaehara who was the daughter of aegon II and had children with her thus merging both bloodlines into one
Aegon didnt have kids with her. She is killed, and then he marry a Velaryon girl, and have kids with her. Alicent line die off.
Cant wait to see Daemon and Aemond battle in the HOTD
Doesn’t matter who won the war at the end. The Targaryen’s were the last dragonlords of old Valyria to exist, the last representation of the greatest civilization the world had ever seen finishing itself off with their own blood and dragons. Tragic. Viserys could have prevented it all if he didn’t have the conviction of a paper bag.
I cannot wait to see it all on screen on HOD
Well, since it wasn't a draw.. I'd simply call it a pyrrhic victory for the Blacks.
Maybe the only other party which really seems to have 'won' were the Starks?
They came down south with their army mainly filled up with people they could spare. These people came to fight and die. Even though most of them lived (except for most of the Winter Wolves) because when their main army arrived, most of the fighting was done, quite a few of them remained in the Riverlands when the war(s) ended. Thus sparing the North the mouths to feed for the coming winter (which was apparently an important issue facing the North).
Furthermore, Cregan Stark returned to the North with his reputation intact/his status increased, with a new wife to boot, the party they supported on top of the throne (be it severely weakened) ánd their version of 'justice' served.
So it seems to me, the Starks were one of the few, if not the only party which achieved most of the goals they set out for themselves at the start of the Dance.
@@raphaelostrowski6336 So what?
This would have been known from the beginning, when Cregan Stark announced to his Queen that the marshalling of his forces would take a year or two since they had to bring in the harvest before the Winter (which was seriously coming, no pun intended).
In the meantime, the Winter Wolves earned the respect of friend and foes alike. They literally turned the tide of the war for at least some time and basically shattered the army of the Westerlands (together with other forces) among other things. How is that for being useless?
If you were Cregan Stark, you came out better than before the war, there is simply very little evidence to deny that. Him being one of the few.
Not trying to be a dick, but did you even see what I wrote? Because it seems to me that you didn't.