Why John Piper Should Stop Speaking on Marriage -- and turning the other cheek! - Episode 151
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- Опубликовано: 22 июн 2022
- Links to things mentioned:
John Piper article on harsh husbands:
www.desiringgod.org/interview...
Our original Facebook Live (expanded content from this podcast, extra 13 minutes on end):
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Our article talking about John Piper and harsh husbands:
tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2022...
Dr. Alison Cook on Turning the Other Cheek:
www.dralisoncook.com/should-y...
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Gretchen Baskerville on the effect of divorce on kids if husbands are abusive:
lifesavingdivorce.com/abuse-a...
Its taken me 4 decades to recognize I've been abused. My daughter introduced me to your work. Wake up call. I was in an abusive church also. Left it and just filed for a life saving divorce.
Great books to read are Mending the Soul by Stephen Tracy, a Christian book about abuse
And “Why Does He Do That?” a secular book by Lundy Bandcroft; this book is probably at your public library or at least it should be !
*Bancroft. Any search should come up with the correct name, but in case it doesn’t, that’s it. ❤️
Same here! In fact I spent years in John Pipers church
I believe Lundy Bancroft saved my life because whether my husband could curb his violence and chose not to or truly couldn’t control it, either way I wasn’t safe nor were our children.
Married 30 years being nice. It only got worse. He is not the man God wants him to be and I helped create that. One day God spoke to me (in that still small voice but very firmly) "Enough" I am now speaking up.and setting boundaries. I don't know if we will stay together but I feel.hopeful for myself and my dignity
“Calling yourself a Christian means absolutely nothing.”- I love this quote. I worked in a toxic church environment with an ex-coworker who would harass me, he would always call himself a Christian and then exhibited toxic behaviors. I’m absolutely grateful to never work with him ever again.
Actions speak louder than anything he says. I’m glad you got away from him❤
Ladies. I am married to a wonderful man. He is in full time ministry with the Military and I'm constantly told he is tremendously good at his job.
He was also very harsh and cruel when I brought any grievance for almost 20 years. Even the slightest grievance would be met with hostility, deflection and even rage. We stayed together 20 years of this because I didn't have grievances very often.
However, during a rough patch it started getting worse. I finally packed my bags and left. He was in absolute shock. He told me I didn't have Biblical grounds for divorce. I told him I would take my chances before God on judgement day. Guess what happened? He changed. He stated going to personal therapy and it was like an instant change which told me he was capable of not acting as he had been for the last 20 years.
We are still married and he has seen improvements in other areas of his life since working to curb his behavior. He is now able to hear grievances without freaking out. He is actually at therapy right now.
Being kind, giving in....being sweet....I did all that. I also yelled and freaked out in attempts to be heard.
But when I calmly set a boundary things changed. Piper is wrong here. We can't award bad behavior. Doing so helps nobody.
Ditto. I have been married 56 years and the first 25 were very difficult. My husband got some severe life lessons which helped reinforce the boundaries I set, and he stopped bullying me. We still have lots of differences but we are so glad we stayed together. Have you ever read Ann Kiemel Anderson's books? Her husband had died before she could admit their marriage was awful.
When children watch a parent abuse another parent, it teaches children that this is OK....and the % of children from abuse marriages (that stay together) is high for those same children to pick abusive partners to marry because they see it as "normal"!!! And then the cycle goes on!!
This is heart breaking. Goodness. God please keep saving your sons and daughters in abusive marriages 😖😞😭
EXCELLENT POINT!!
@@Star-dj1kwAmen sister! ❤
John Piper continuously shows his heart. He continuously shows his fragile masculinity, and his own insecurities he projects on others. He has no ability to enter in to a woman’s pain or torture. It’s in the fruit.
Maybe he got sand kicked in his face at the beach as a teen and now wants revenge .
I prayed for decades that it wouldn't bother me anymore. I finally realized I was in a narcissistic abusive marriage at about 19 years. I finally left at 24. I also spent years praying to die because til death do you part.
I am from Minneapolis, where Piper's ministry is based, and I have seen the fruit of this man's church (Bethlehem Baptist) and ministry devastate my college friends' relationships, eventual marriages, and their parents' marriages. The bad fruit is on display, you can feel it when you walk into their worship space, in conversations with his followers, and in their ministries spaces. I have had more than a handful of friends leave his church deeply scarred. Thank you for rebuking this destructive teaching of his and being righteously angered by it - this terrible theology of abuse of his is so, so harmful.
Give an example of something he said
I went there is a teenager! I had no idea about all this theology until a couple days ago.
@@ShepherdMinistry listen to this video. You will hear
I misunderstood what you meant when you said "based" and it took me a couple reads to make sense of what you were saying 😅
What Shelia says at 17:48, about how traumatic it is for kids to witness an abusive marriage, is so true. I’m a 20-year-old woman and nothing hits me so hard, nothing is so vivid to me, nothing makes me sadder than remembering various scenes of abuse sprinkled throughout my childhood.
I’m scratching my head. John Piper is probably more intelligent than I am but when I heard Piper’s rationale that the harsh husband was just acting out of his genetic code, I thought: “that’s Crap!” This husband was probably not harsh during the engagement. This guy can be polite and courteous to people at his workplace. Being a jerk to his wife and family IS A CHOICE. John Piper is giving this man a pass bc he won’t hold toxic masculinity responsible for the damage it’s doing to women, boys, and girls.
Thank you for this comment! To boot, Piper is a lordship salvationist, and didn’t call the man on the carpet for giving evidence that he wasn’t saved.
That’s conservative religion, any conservative religion, in a nut shell: giving men a pass and upholding male entitlement.
@@HimmiefanSo true!
@@Himmiefancorrect. Giving men all the authority but women get all the responsibility. I honestly thought God hated women for years!!!!
You are so right that we may not realize what is abuse. He is harsh: He’s “moody.” He sulks for Days and won’t speak to me if he didn’t get his way. He is unreasonable in his demands on the kids. For example, he expects them to get a chair so they can reach to hang up their coats. But I see his coat is on the back of a chair. He yells at them to go to bed, doesn’t PUT them to bed, or tuck them in. He sits in the car and waits for me to get the kids ready and join him. Angry that I take so long. If I say anything, I get sarcasm: “ Oh yes, and you’re always perfect!” And I walk on eggshells, wondering what to say or do, or NOT do, to prevent one of his moods. But he never threatened or laid a hand on me.
Maybe he’s just a jerk? A woman does not knowingly marry a jerk! He is a deceiver!
I say this both as a woman and as a human being in general: it is 100% possible (with God's and loved ones' help of course) to discover and break your toxic personality traits. I've been called out on hurtful things I've done and said, and I've broken some habits (while still working on ditching others). On the other hand, if I didn't change, the people in my life would have every right to walk out, because they deserve better. They shouldn't have to cater to my selfishness and wait around for me to be in a better mood. If I love them truly, I'm doing the work.
I agree with this even though it can be hard to admit you are toxic in ways. I have boderline personality disorder and while I am good at keeping friends after lots of work...I apparently suck in romantic situations bc my feelings for men can drop like a hat...even tho its usually toxic behavior that makes me shut down. Thx for your honesty bc I often feel alone in my search for recovery of my toxicity. Not dating until I'm healed and God gives a yes.
@@scubatasticI’m so impressed you found the courage to change and I’m here to tell you there is hope with a BPD diagnosis. Dialectic Behavioral Therapy can help so much when you’re willing to put in the work and end the trail of tears. It isn’t your fault but it is within your power to change❤
I have been reading your book, the good girls guide to sex and I was so delighted to see that you have a RUclips channel! I listen to stuff all day long while I’m cleaning, doing chores, working out, and even at work! I’m so excited to be able to get some of this advice from someone who loves the Lord! It is so refreshing to have a candid and to the point discussion on this topic without Making it such a big deal while simultaneously honoring it and celebrating it! This is such a gift to me at the start of my marriage!
I left BBC in the mid-1990s, and I am still actively healing. So so so much damage done there to women and marriages. And actually men too.
If evangelical churches fought as hard as they did preaching love to men as they do submission to women, marriages will be less miserable
Huh, my experience in churches seems to be the opposite of yours. This is most obvious when on Mothers Day the message to women is all about praising them for all that they do and then on Fathers Day the message to men is the challenge for how we fail to live up to Christ's model of loving our wives and that we need to do better.
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Precious Goje
6 days ago
If evangelical churches fought as hard as they did preaching love to men as they do submission to women, marriages will be less miserable
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r d
3 days ago (edited)
Huh, my experience in churches seems to be the opposite of yours. This is most obvious when on Mothers Day the message to women is all about praising them for all that they do and then on Fathers Day the message to men is the challenge for how we fail to live up to Christ's model of loving our wives and that we need to do better.
Precious Goje
26 minutes ago
Mother's day and father's day pales in comparison to the culture of the evenagelic church towards women. Sure mother's day they praise women and father's day they go on rants as if one day will do much. Ranting helps no one, I have actually found them hypocritical. However all through alot of church teachings are laced with subliminal messages targeted towards women. From churches that i have been to telling me women were an afterthought in God's creation so they needed to submit to men, to men telling women to shut up and go to the kitchen (john MacArthur said this), to men demanding women should give up their own bodies to men even when on a menstrual circle and in pain, to preachers telling women to tolerate both verbal and physical abuse from (John Pieper said something similar)..I have a huge list of these pastors. Oh don't get me started on Mark Driscoll, very arrogant and condescending in his marriage book Real marriage. There is just so much I can't even begin to dish it out here. I was once in a church that the pastor said if a man slaps you, you should thank him. I walked out of the church while he was spewing that nonsense. He later had to apologize for saying that.
Sounds like you've been to the wrong churches if they are telling you that women are an afterthought and they should thank men for slapping them, I'm glad to hear the pastor of the church you walked out had apologized. I'm not sure what your point was in namedropping to me those whom you quoted, though, since I have issues with all of them. I do try to be fair though which was why, even though I'm not a fan of Piper, I didn't appreciate these women misquoting him. Since you brought it up, could you provide me with a link to John MacArthur saying that women should be quiet and go to the kitchen? Thanks
@@rd2234 I was giving you examples of the evangelical culture not just one day focussed on one gender.. there lots of christian marriage books that support the things these pastors say. Also they were not misquoting him, you need to listen to the entire video he made. I listened to it several times and it actually worse than what they are even saying
@@rd2234 2. John Piper; should women submit to abuse husband.
I’m a new subscriber and am a firm believer that God directs you to certain people when you need them. Praise God for you and your family!
Emotionally abusive husbands can also look like men who are very passive, shut down, withhold words, affection and sex. Sexless marriages are a huge issue and I would love for you to address this sometime as well. It is another form of abuse. Men who use porn, don’t have sex with their wives and expect her to live like that is so much more common than not. It’s so harsh and tragic. Thank you Sheila and Rebecca!!!
That’s my situation. Thank you for articulating it so well! And they do talk about porn use (check out their episode called “Porn Triage” - excellent), but I don’t know if they’ve ever devoted an entire episode to covert abuse.
Ladies, have you? Because we would be all on board with it! 😁
Yes I have listened to the porn triage episode and sent it to many of my clients. Excellent episode. Painful to hear and equally validating for women/wives.
As someone who left a 31 year marriage that started with verbal abuse, emotional abuse, and escalated to physical abuse. Early on I would have said he was being harsh and there were years of "harshness" that wore me down to the point that the physical abuse was just more of the same, escalated. And I kept quiet for years because I didn't want him to look bad to our friends.
The important thing is that you left! You have the rest of your life to make it up to yourself and treat yourself with tenderness and respect as well as requiring good treatment from everyone around you.❤🩹
👏👏👏 thank you so much for speaking up about this!! something had always seemed off and whenever i pointed it out in the comments, the response was brutal. so thank you for being a sound voice!!
also, would be so interested to hear your thoughts about ben courson and jon courson. they're "pastors" in oregon and some allegations came out last summer that ben had been inappropriate with multiple women in the church but he excused it because he didn't "preach about dating". his father is head pastor at the church which causes even more corruption. and *shocker* there have been allegations against jon ages ago that have been swept under the rug. Sheila and Becca, we need your voice to bring this to the light because they still continue to preach and post videos online and it is revolting!!
It took 25 years for me to realize what was going on in my marriage. I wish I could have a session with you Mrs. Shelia!! Thank you for all you do to help women!! You have helped me so much, and you have helped empower my four daughters!!
Thank you. I did not realize I was in an emotionally abusive marriage until many years later. I really appreciate how clearly you speak on this topic. I never felt like I had anyone I could share what was going on because it would put my husband in a bad light embarrassing to him.
Just thinking..."abuse" is mis-use, that is, not treating something or someone in an appropriate way with the implication that continuing in the same way will result in significant or permanent damage. Some people recoil at the application of the word "abuse" to things they believe "aren't that bad", but if someone harshness on a single instance puts strain on the receiving person or relationship, continued harshness WILL lead to a destroyed person or relationship. People are made as the image of God. We are designed for loving relationship not for abuse. Therefore anything that degrades a person or turns them into an object is abuse.
I've read "Desiring God," and frankly, I don't know why so many people think it's a great book. There were maybe one or two ideas in the whole book that I retained, because John Piper is a poor writer. I don't need to be able to Tweet everything, but there's a lot to be said for succinct writing, and John Piper evidently doesn't know how to be concise.
As for a husband's leadership, husbands are called to love their wives "as Christ loved the Church." Christ showed His love for the Church by stepping away from the courts of Heaven to come to earth as a common laboring man, kneeling to do the work of slaves, dying in one of the most painful, humiliating ways ever devised, and then entrusting the monumental task of growing the Church to lowly humans who would inevitably get it wrong over and over again. THAT is the kind of love a Christian man should show his wife.
Listening to the original DG episode 1794 where J. P. gives advice and am struck by the irresponsibility of giving advice without knowing the specifics and using examples from his own marriage struggles as if their situations are at all related. His advice amounts to placing an abuse problem in the same category as just another normal marriage problem.
The prayer advice is really upsetting, because the thing is, one should ABSOLUTELY pray in this situation! You need to take care of your spiritual well-being in such a difficult time, but to take that and twist it into a way of silencing or limiting a person's ability to actually directly address the abuse rather than caring for oneself spiritually in this especially difficult situation is a perversion of prayer. You need to be close to God, especially in difficult times, but to take that, and use it as a way to guilt people into enduring abuse is so so wrong. The victim is a person who God loves, a person who God wants to be safe, and happy, and loved, to encouraging abuse (whether from the perspective of the abuser continuing the abuse, or the victim submitting to the abuse) is not pleasing to God.
Beautifully said! Too often this distinction obscured by religiouspeak. God wants everyone to be safe, happy, loved and respected and it is loving to remove one of God's children from abuse or encourage them to save themselves.
OK I think we need a super flowery cross-stitch piece with “Maybe he’s just a jerk” on it. 😂
Excellent idea! Or if you don't do needlework, just a T-Shirt or a bumper sticker!
I seriously don’t understand these pastors. They are putting themselves in such deep holes. It’s always about their own theology. Do their wives even accept this. Very disgusting and disturbing. I personally don’t listen to him anymore, haven’t for years. Love your work please don’t ever stop.
My guess is - if your husband gets "big" enough preaching this BS, you keep your mouth shut because the money is good. Not to mention that the wives would face so much more hatred and abuse from the large following their husband has. It would be very very scary to speak up. You would have to have a whole PR plan along with an escape plan.
@@suburbanpreppermom Which is why we need to help our sisters and their children to safety.
Fantastic episode.
The money shot (I'm a man, I'm a man's man, I'm a man man man...!) is at 42:35. This is the fourth time I've come back to watch it.
That interpretation of turning the other cheek is interesting. I'm not sure how they get that to line up with the preceding verses though. I will look into it.
Hey, Sheila. Thank you for your insight. Which pastors do you advise listening to?
Only Jesus that’s what I say, only Jesus
@@Janice_1979_ of course, but Jesus uses people (not only Pastors) to spread His message. My wife and I are wondering who Sheila and her family listen to.
@@Janice_1979_ Then why are you on this page listening to Sheila?
Charles Stanley
@@savedbyjesus2000 Worst ever. He was a very abusive husband, ending in divorce because he never made his wife his priority, by her own statement.
This episode brings up a question that I have. If some of a teacher’s teachings on marriage are harmful, but they have other teachings on other subjects that are good and helpful, how can we cite them in such a way that it does not give traffic to their other teachings? Is a simple disclaimer (“I agree with what this person says about X but not Y”) enough? This is particularly relevant with Piper, who teaches that divorce is not justified for abuse. This causes victims to stay in abusive marriages. But I have found Piper helpful in other areas. If a teacher is unsafe in these areas, is it safe to cite them in ‘any’ area, or do we need to avoid giving them any traffic at all?
I am not familiar with Piper's wider teachings, so I offer a totally different example, sometimes an extreme example can help us think about the greyer areas.
You listen to music, you love the songs, but then the artiste is convicted of sex offences. Do you still enjoy the songs? Does it depend on whether you already owned the material or if playing it on a streaming act gave the artiste more royalties?
On one level the song is still the same song, and as meaningful as it always was to you, on the otherhand do you want to financially benefit the creator of the song.?
John Piper is more interested in maintaining the male hierarchy and patriarchy than the fruit of the spirit, protecting the sheep 🐑, and the lesser believers (females ☹️).
Remember when the woman anointed Jesus with the costly jar of spices and it filled the room with the aroma? This was her act of service and devotion. But she was scolded by some disciples bc her gift was FOOLISH and TOO EXTRAVAGANT. (Some gospels say only identify Judas as the troublemaker. Mark says “men”) I love how Jesus came to her defense.
Mark 14:6 “Leave her alone,” said Jesus. “Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
Mark 14:9 Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.” Her memorial is told in all 4 gospels.
John Piper does not defend women.
Jesus DOES defend women.
John Piper props up the male establishment. Jesus said he came to give his life a ransom for many. ❤️💖 I don’t follow the same gospel that Piper is peddling.
Amen.
This is a little bit to blame on part for not clarifying "harsh" for this woman. Is "harsh" rolling his eyes and grunting over something or is "harsh" throwing things, screaming, your fearful of him? He forgot to ask and she failed to be clear. So much abuse is missed because we didn't ask for context
Harsh - ungentle and unpleasant in action or effect; grim or unpleasantly severe; stern; cruel; austere. Whatever it is, it isn’t Christ-like.
Piper’s view inverts the purpose of marriage. Christ laid down His life for the church. Men must love their wives with loving sacrifice. Anything less must be confronted.
My Husband is a Baptist Pastor. Why would any Pastor counsel this kind of advice?
Is sexual abuse when a husband says, “I’m feeling tempted to look at porn, I need sex?” And he still goes to porn after?
Regarding Piper's statement regarding distinguishing between a husband's harshness being sinful or just his personality/upbringing: he fails to recognize generational iniquity. In the Bible, there is sin - someone intentionally choosing to do wrong, and then there is iniquity, which is something inherited or spiritually passed down via demonic influence on the family. Harshness, spirits of control, or abuse can certainly be included here. It takes deliverance ministry and breaking off generational curses to overcome, along with one's commitment to personal development.
And individual therapy that is truly supportive of the woman, NOT marriage counseling. Or the abusive pattern will be carried on through the children and their children, etc.
Rebecca- The eye roll😊
Piper's response is terrible. The basic question is 'help I am being treated badly' and saying, pray your spouse changes but also pray and look for your flaws that provoke them. Then, don't speak up, because that will make it worse.. Oh and don't tell others the problems cos you make the had person look bad.
Oh and it is just genetic?? Their personality? But the woman has to always change. 29:17 did you just say he said it is not sin if is his personality?
This is not gossip. Ha My husband goes along to get along and is extremely uncomfortable with my willingness to confront others who have crossed boundaries.
I have a lot of personal growth yet to do in this area. I do try to start out reasonable and sweet. I’m not always successful.
I got into it with a friend/contractor who was doing some tile work for us. He and I have different ideas about what is acceptable, much less what is esthetically pleasing. The fight started, or escalated when he wanted to stop the backsplash before the end of the kitchen counter. I pronounced it as looking “stupid” and it spiraled down from there. He ended up quitting, loading up his truck and leaving us in the lurch.
My husband blamed me for the way I spoke to our friend and I ended up calling him and leaving a long voice mail detailing what I had done and promising to do better.
I feel icky about the status of my relationship with this friend. My husband related to him what I wanted to finish the job to my satisfaction. This feels very off to me. Would I like an apology for his storming off like a drama queen? Yes
Should I expect one? No
Please give me your thoughts about how I could have gotten what I wanted w/o blowing up at him and losing my dignity.
First of all, never hire a friend as a contractor.
General comment:
Too long video.
Can you make it compacter next time? (Bullet points rather than super long monologues about your personal opinion).
More specific comment:
There is a lot (A LOT) of speculation in there from your part.
You are taking too many things for granted.
(Example: “ if a woman says her husband is harsh it must mean he is abusive. “ ….Have you considered she could be an abusive narcissist herself and he is the victim? (I am not saying this is the case here. There is not enough information to draw this kind of conclusion. I am just saying it is a concern, and it is not possible to judge a situation without having heard both sides of the story). I probably might have been harsh at times - not abusive - to people who behaved in a very manipulative way and who walked over my boundaries emotionally, who are emotionally abusive to me… in particular my mother). That doesn’t make me “harsh”. (Because I am not like that with people who are not manipulative and narcissistic) . But my mother might tell you I am harsh … without mentioning she is a manipulator and emotionally abusive to me.
Please please please …. Be careful not to make judgments you don’t have a place in making.
You might add more to the problem than to the solution .
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
These two women are true Christians.
I can’t help to think about what Jesus said: 15 “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault,(M) just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d](N) 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church;(O) and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.(Matthew 18: 15-17)
1 peter 2:18 "Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." DEAR Sheila, you had good content in your videos, and I learnt a lot from you things I didn't know before BUT WE ARE NOT JUST FEMININE BUT CHRISTIANS, AND CHRIST SAID TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME, THAT MEANS EVEN IF THAT PERSON DOESN'T CHANGE WE HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO IMITATE CHRIST. I DONT SEE A PROBLEM IN WHAT JOHN PIPER SAID, PRAYER IS VERY POWERFUL, NOT JUST IMPORTANT, YOU CANNOT MOCK STH THE BIBLE SAYS AS VERY IMPORTANT, THIS IS ABOUT GODS POWER TO ANSWER. JUST TO MAKE THIS EASIER LETS ASIDE MARRIAGE AND FEMALE, MALE RELATIONSHIP ASIDE AND EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT 1 PETER 2:18 SAYS HERE (HOW SLAVES SHOULD RESPOND TO HARSH MASTERS, WELCOME TO CHRISTIANITY!), AND YES I RATHER BLIND FOLDLY FOLLOW CHRIST, HE IS GOD, HE HAS DONE MORE FOR ME AND THERE IS LIFE AFTER THIS ONE, AND ABOVE ALL THE GRACE OF GOD IS VERY ENOUGH.
Biblical sanity -
First, you’re all caps equals yelling.Second, imitating Christ does not equal staying in abusive marriages.
Is anyone else wondering what kind of husband Piper is? I feel bad for his wife and children.
You don't have to wonder
Why is it bad advice to first pray?
Seriously?
I was confused about this too. I think the point they made is that the woman probably was already.
I dont know why I came here..but when I hear you something is not right it hurts my heart..its like "christians"promoting divorce...and I see like an anger toward our brother Piper but you are taking real personal..yes there is abusive relationships we all carrying with past burden with present burdens ..but who changed our heart? Does God not have the power in these days to change people and hearts?.....marriage is a blessing pray for your marriage ...my dad and mom unconverted where in that type of relationship macho style and she was raised that marriage was for ever since she picked and decided to marry my dad i was young and did not agree but im glad that they did not divorce because after the years my dad came to Christ and you could see what God did in him a totally different person and he shared the gospel to our family and I converted to Christ too....It a difficult topic a one on one conversation hear from others but bring it to Christ...what I know is I want to be married to Jesus forever
It does feel like there's a Jezebel spirit with these two. The annoying tickle of water 💧
Piper’s teachings are often contrary to God’s word. And these false teachings have hurt many people in very severe ways.
We should definitely forgive him and have a gentle spirit. I do agree some commenters don’t seem gentle. It’s hard to forgive a person when they don’t acknowledge their faults. But it’s still necessary.
@@savedbyjesus2000 Oh yes, anytime women voice an opinion, especially a genuine Spirit-filled opinion that doesn’t uphold male entitlement, they’re Jezebels. Ask the Holy Spirit for discernment next time .
I threw his books out.
I don't agree with John Piper on everything, but you continually misquoted Piper and ripped him out of context. Also you state that someone being harsh "almost surely" means that they are abusive. Your disdain and hatred for Piper was just dripping from your talk. I honestly thought you talking about the fruit of the spirit was pretty ironic.
Couldn't agree more.
It seems that genuine wrongs by certain men are met with genuine resistance combined with extreme over-reaction, swinging the pendulum to the other side, where the women justify wrong behavior against men.
I was married to a Gothardite women for 26 years. She was/is self-righteous, cruel, gas-lighting, provocative, passive-aggressive, rebellious, and lived in an alternate reality where she projected her own behaviors upon everyone but herself. I don't think our four children will ever recover.
Mockers
For a man who mis-uses the Word and deserves to be mocked. Piper has bad fruit.