One more thought on this topic. Think of a mother who has created with her own hands a beautiful flower garden of most precious and favorite flowers. Then one day she is in her home tending to a task when she is interrupted by dirty fist full of her flowers, uprooted and being offered to her with a loving smile by her child. Sure she owns the flowers already and did all of the work, but she smiles and accepts the loving intension. We are like children, in that we have nothing to give the One who created everything, even ourselves. However, if I can find a flower within myself or can blossom into something presentable, I owe it to my Creator. I sure hope I am the good enough soil for flowers to grow.
Here's some good advice: Stay away from Calvinism. Stay away from TULIP theology, and stay away from this tendency by Calvinists to quote writers whike ignoring the Bible. And no, speaker, we can't fulfill the law.
@ArchimedesBC Exactly. Read also James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
I, sir, am a Calvinist, and I fail to see how anything I said conflicts with the doctrine of total depravity. Possessing a living faith in Christ saves, and that same living faith bears the fruit of love and obedience to Christ.
Will C Don't give up. If you haven't found people that are accepting. We should assemble to sing, and encourage, pray for one another and to learn and share. I'll pray you find a place and don't give up until you find one. It doesn't even have to be in a "church" building. You could even start your own gathering. The people are the church. Assemble together with other believers anywhere and do the things God has called us to do, when you do.
Obedience that will lead you to do acts of love and charity towards your neighbors. Therefore if you do NOT do something to people in need (acts of charity in other words), then your faith ALONE doesn't save you.
I get hyped more and more in my walk with Christ when i come across to brothers in faith chopping it up as most of us do on a day to day basis especially leaders with wisdom
Wow, that 14 min. went by FAST! Can't get enough of this expository conversation and leadership with scriptural backing and reading assignments for the needy. Thanks for sharing!
An easy way to explain the need for good works is simply, imagine you have a best friend. They’ve been there for you, they’ve had your back, they’ve helped you when you needed help and time after time they’ve shown their unconditional friendship and love for you. So in turn, you WANT to help your friend. And the best way to help your best friend, is to help his best friend. And who is his best friend. Everyone.
I surrendered my life to Christ 4 months ago after struggling with anxiety and depression the suffering knocked me down into the dirt and as I was yelling for my heavenly father forgive me for running away living in sin and he came to me with open arms picking me up and dusting me off hugging me telling me he’ll never leave me he has always been there watching over me calling me back home into his loving embrace I know that nothing of this world will fill the void in my heart for the world will end but the love of God is forever I’ve finally filled my emptiness with Christ now I’m full never will I go hungry or thirsty and the life I now live is not my life but the life of Christ in me for Christ who was without sin laying his life down for sinners so that through him we will conquer sin that is death through his life I long to be with him and be like him I believe sanctification is such an important part of growing a relationship with God the father we must be willing to let go of worldly things see I idolized video games I spent 8 hours a days playing and when I wasn’t playing I was dreaming thinking talking about video games I loved video games my life revolved around video games I was trying to fill my emptiness with video games all it brought was false joy and happiness it wasn’t from God but from the world and I had to cut it out and put all my attention on God the source of joy peace love and everything that is good Christ is returning soon be ready brothers and sisters time is short
Thankful for this discussion! I love the concept that the lady in Tim's story brought up. This infinitely wonderful salvation means that everything should be given to God with joy! It's only fitting.
Wow I just said that today to God. I had a rough night fighting resentment and anger that I felt the tough out of alignment. I know Gods peace and contentment that I don’t want to go back to my old ways and be blinded by grieving the Holy Spirit. God is good he worked it out in me and I am back on track
Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit within the life of the believer to generate and develop Godly character and to carry out good works prepared by God. Justification is through faith and we express our faith through repentance or a turning away from sinful patterns (inner and outer).
@@aacc2216 justification is a “decision” (more so than a work) made by God to treat you as being righteous, even though you aren’t based on you own actions, but through the actions of Christ.
Definition is just a starting point..What is the SPECIFIC PROCESS that the HOLY SPIRIT uses to make a person righteous, separate them from sin and changes them to be like Christ/JESUS??
8:48 “it’s motivated by joy” this is the best and most important thing said here. Period. Otherwise it’s another heavy “to do” list added to people’s already hard lives, which would be absolutely ridiculous.
@getrit3007Catholic gospel? Catholicism doesn’t teach that we are saved only by the blood of Jesus Christ. This whole idea that a person is good enough to go to Heaven based on their own good works/merit is a popular lie being caught in Catholicism and other religions. And it’s spreading like wildfire.
A.W. Pink says it very well in the following quote: Just as the sinner's despair of any hope from himself is the first prerequisite of a sound conversion, so the loss of all confidence in himself is the first essential in the believer's growth in grace. We can't perform for God we are fully accepted, perfected by the sacrifice of Christ. We are complete in Christ. Now our focus should be in loving God and others as God loves us. Or mental focus changes from i can keep the law to I'm not able . This is what sets us free from a performance trap. We can't keep the law that's the point. So surrender to God and allow his Spirit to gradually change us. Life in the spirit.
This was an amazing talk. I am a Catholic Christian and the crossroads of salvation and sanctification is always hard for me to wrap my head around. This video was so helpful!
That’s really interesting. Out of curiosity if you identify as Catholic, do you then believe in a saved by works salvation? As this video helps us understand that we are saved by grace alone and not of our own works as the bible says.
wow that never crossed my mind- that the more we walk in grace/due to grace, the greater our "debt" of grace becomes. I guess that's another way of thinking about how "grace abounds to me." Amazing is what grace will always be.
A.W. Pink says it very well in the following quote: Just as the sinner's despair of any hope from himself is the first prerequisite of a sound conversion, so the loss of all confidence in himself is the first essential in the believer's growth in grace.
Two humble men in Christ willing to reflect yet take correction BUT more than happy to stand for the truth where it counts. Amazing discussion - 2 Timothy 2:23-24 - 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Praise God - how can we NOT live for HIM.
First time I heard blessing and cursing as 'remedial' for those not understanding the love of God. It is true. Christ loved us in spite of owning heaven itself. Why? Heaven has so much love stored up that He wanted to give us all a preview in his coming so that blessed or not, we love. Overwhelming! Great lesson in sanctification without which none will see God.
Time skips. Thank me later 00:20 - How Keller talks about sanctification 2:25 - What are we conforming to in sanctification? 3:45 - How does justification relate to sanctification? 6:40 - the psychological dynamics of faith 9:00 - What does it mean to "owe God everything"? 11:20 - "I'm going to work my tail off for Jesus, and it's all of grace."
I really like these guys. Intelligent and honest, they do well to unpack this topic of santification I think. I am not a Calvinist by the way. God bless you guys. P.S - I love the idea 'debtor to grace'. Fab
This video was very helpful. I think that Christians will always need help understanding the difference between justification and sanctification. Much thanks to Tim and John.
“In fact, this is love for God: to keep His commands. And His commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.”-1 John 5:3-4
thank you for reminding me of why I obey… We want and aim for sanctification or greater obedience to God not because we have to-but because He deserves it for everything He’s done. We want to live a life that shows our gratefulness to Him 🙏🏻🤍
I love the way he preface his answer as coming from a Presbyterian. Important nuance because they are fundamentally operating from a different perspective of theology. I think it also shows his understanding that there might be some difference.
God bless you Brothers thanks for all the good work in Christ I know many people will boast about you guys on the day of the Lord. Grace to all of my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus on RUclips. Great is the Lord our God
What is the relationship between justification and sanctification? James Denney, the great theologian in Scottish Presbyterian circles 120 years ago, says that "true justification sanctifies." The context for that quote appears below to whet your appetite to read Denney, who I. Howard Marshall calls the theologian's theologian. What does it mean that true justification sanctifies and how does it work? The Accuser counterfeits God's truth to confuse us about this relationship (2 Cor. 11:3ff). Denney gives us an insight into the nature of our confusion when he says: "We all love independence and ARE SLOW TO LEARN [my caps] that that is not the fundamental law of our nature; dependence is"--absolute dependence, I would add. Denney also humorously says "We are slow to know ourselves and sometimes do not wish to." “Slow to learn” certainly describes me. Does it describe you, too? We want to be in control and be achievers of what we need instead of being receivers who trust Christ to achieve it all for us-especially concerning our choices to do good. Dependence means sanctification flows naturally out of justification. That touches on why it works but doesn't explain how it works. Michael Horton in For Calvinism gives us a hint as to how it DOESN'T work when he boldly declares that the will cannot be accessed directly but is a result of one’s heart and mind. Have you even once thought that you cannot access your will directly? To have that thought chops at the root of our self-righteous fallen nature we inherited from Adam, which is about autonomy or rebellion against dependence. Denney goes so far as to say that dependence annihilates self-righteousness. This means God initiates all good things in our lives and created us to live by responding to His goodness, by trusting His goodness-which we do by gazing into His presence. We receive rather than achieve all the good choices we make (James 1:17, 25). How that works is the big surprise in Denney’s words about sanctification. At first glance, Denney’s words seem unsurprising if we have been in Christ for some years. We know that at conversion we abandoned all hope in ourselves and trusted the sin-bearing death of Christ. This justifying work of Christ made us holy (different, sanctified) in our relationship with God. We received the Great Exchange and are now righteous in Christ and no longer in Adam, trapped in our sin (in our missing the mark of righteousness). This means I’m a Jesus-is-my-righteousness Christian and so are you, even if you don’t see it yet. The huge surprise in Denney’s words is that true justification sanctifies our present moment, and in doing so sanctifies our motivation and our choices. This makes them pure and good. What this means and how it works is difficult to grasp because of its simplicity. Our pride craves credit for our good behavior and blinds us to the simplicity of how dependence on Christ works. Christ didn’t give us a new identity that is something like a rock in our pocket that gives us the power to do good and avoid evil. Christ gives us Himself. Paul’s first command in Colossians points to how Christ works in and through us, but his words are easy to miss (Colossians 2:6-8). Denney basically shouts them at us when he says that absolutely every moment of the Christian life is an identical experience with our conversion when we looked away from ourselves and trusted the moral perfection and sin-bearing death of Christ. We saw and see God’s law glorified in the atonement-which Denney says is the only way he can read the New Testament. When we look there we see the joy of the Lord in the glory of Christ because “God is well pleased for His righteousness sake to exalt the law and make it glorious” (Isaiah 42:21). When we see God’s pleasure in moral perfection fulfilled and honored in Christ, we participate in His joy and we experience “The joy of the Lord as our strength” (Nehemiah 8:10). Denney says that vision is infinite motivation to do good works. That’s how our moment is sanctified-set apart from self-righteous thoughts and evil actions. At conversion, God gives us a new heart/mind of righteousness (the mind of Christ; 1 Cor. 2:16) that naturally produces good choices (Gal. 5:22f; Eph. 5:9)-when and only when we use it instead of using our old Adamic self-righteous mind. I'm passionately persuaded of Horton's insight and it's at the heart of my approach to witnessing to hundreds of Mormons annually. I'm privileged to have my passion for the gospel to be my vocation as a full-time evangelist to Mormons in Utah-my career for the past 4 decades. Mormons rebel against Horton's insight and seek to access their will directly by looking at individual points of God's good law and then trying to follow what they see. Not seeing the law as a seamless whole-as all or nothing-is cheating with standards and is why they carry a heavy load of self-condemnation for failure. I don’t tell Mormons these things. Instead, I lead them to discover and trust that God’s law requires moral perfection now. This brings Jesus into the conversation as the embodiment of the law. This surprises them and keeps surprising them as they discover that Jesus in His moral perfection and sin-bearing death is all their righteousness and all their holiness (1 Cor. 1:30) and that they should have noticed all that before (Rom. 1:18-19). This discovery leads them to the foot of the cross where they see their need to trust Jesus to be their righteousness and to give up trying to be righteous by slowly improving. They say they need to trust Jesus’ work and say thankfulness is the right response to this greatest of all gifts. I urge them to embrace what they say is true and learn to trust through thankfulness for the work of Christ. I pray with them to model it. But abandoning their self-righteous identity in Adam is mind-blowing to them, especially since they've been trained to not think for themselves. One old Mormon told me that Jesus appeared to him when he was 17 and told him to take that step, but he didn’t because his church said he wasn’t allowed to. He finally did, 64 years later just before he died. Here's the context for "true justification sanctifies." It's the last paragraph in chapter 1 in The Atonement and the Modern Mind by James Denney-which is free online. If you’re interested in Denney, I suggest starting with his Studies in Theology which is a series of lectures given to seminary students in 1894 and which contains a section on the relationship between the atonement and our new life in Christ. I read it closely at least every two years. For me, reading Denney is like drinking fire-the burning fire of God’s presence (Isaiah 33:14f). "There is the demand that the Atonement shall be exhibited in vital relation to a new life in which sin is overcome. This demand also is entirely legitimate, and it touches a weak point in traditional Protestant doctrine. Dr. Chalmers [Thomas Chalmers] tells us that he was brought up-such was the effect of the current orthodoxy upon him-in a certain distrust of good works. Some were certainly wanted, but not a being themselves salvation, only, as he puts it, as tokens of justification. It was a distinct stage in his religious progress when he realized that true justification sanctifies, and that the soul can and ought to abandon itself spontaneously and joyfully to do the good that it delights in. The modern mind assumes what Dr. Chalmers painfully discovered. An atonement that does not regenerate, it truly holds, is not an atonement in which men can be asked to believe. Such then, in its prejudices good and bad, is the mind to which the great truth of the Christian religion has to be presented." John Piper wrote the preface to the recent Crossway Books edition of Chalmers transcribed lecture on his insight: The Expulsive Power of a New Affection. Read it closely to notice Horton's insight embedded in it. Here's my summary of how true justification sanctifies: "When I see you in a good way, I treat you in a good way, but when I see you self-righteously, I judge and mistreat you." Fyodor Dostoevsky puts the connection in terms of love: "To love a person means to see him as God intended him to be." Enough said on my favorite topic.
I like it how the Lord put it in that parable (Luke 17:10), that of all the good we have done, as an outwork of sanctification (through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Spirit); we account as our DUTY (a DEBT as the duo have put it) enabled ONLY by His Spirit (by grace as Mr. Piper rightfully quotes Apostle Paul).
I could never repay my debt to God.. because I’m so thankful that He saved me I show my gratitude by obedience. My disobedience is the reason He had to go to the Cross because I cannot save myself. I’m not repaying I’m loving ..doing what comes natural when you are truly grateful. Not expecting to gain anything for my obedience.
This brings to mind when I was 13 and the thought came into my mind that all my life I was getting and getting from God and never giving. I wanted to give back so I sought to obey him by getting baptized and going with our youth leader out into the streets to pass out tracks even though as an introvert, it was it was very uncomfortable for me.
love this , thank you for sharing ,I need to pray this for me too as we do a preaching course , not that I'm doing any preaching but it is about learning how to study the Bible more effectively
The moment we believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ are we from the point in time holy? I believe we are are holy! I mean, positional sanctification and Justification. And in our day to day walk with the Lord we are progressively sanctified, We are being transformed from one degree of glory to another into the perfect image of King Jesus Christ by the leading of the Holy Spirit. This is what I believe sanctification is.Thanks to Dr, John Piper and Tim Keller for making clearer this doctrine. Reading through the comments of many, I again thank PIPER and KELLER for the presentation. I believe they could not have presented all the Biblical evidences and the contrary views to this subject given the time limit.
Mbanga Peter May 7, 2017 WOW! Actually, Mbanga, **Ephesians 1.3-13 says that God did all that you said for us before the foundation of the world, for the praise of His Glorious Grace!** HOW AWESOME IS THAT! WOW, AGAIN, TO OUR AWESOME GOD AND TO HIS MAGNIFICENT SON, JESUS CHRIST, NOW AND FOREVERMORE!!
05:50 min - I have been going on the premise that works can add zero to my salvation. However, when a new Christian stops to think and/or realize the magnitude of what they have just been given, then works will follow; not as any requirement, but out of loving response for the gift. This only gradually crept into my thinking, over many years before I saw the light for what it is. People sing 'Lord, I want to love you more...'. Jesus said, 'if you love me you will keep my commands. And, ' I love obedience more than sacrifice.' And so I have to ask myself, 'How MUCH do I love Jesus'.
I owe it to my parents that I exist but they don't expect a repayment. I owe it to my Heavenly Father and His Son that I am a child of God but no repayment expected!!!!! That Grace caused my sanctification. If not, then I am trying to cause it, showing a lack of trust in the finished work of the Cross. Now I am owed wages (Romans 4) and have fallen from grace (Gal. 5). Just rest in the Finished Work and accept that you have already been accepted, In Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are not inspirational speakers class, Valirie Tompkins. Unlike many other preachers work to please people while they teach, these guys especially Piper to the best of my knowledge does not at all! He is a pioneering preacher of the Gospel.
Amen. Finally the Protestant world finally seems to be coming back to what the Catholic Church has said the Bible teaches all along. God’s grace allows us the ability and the free will to Trust Him with our whole heart, mind and soul. And when we realize the sheer majesty and splendor of our Creator we fall down on our knees and worship him deeply out of reverence, devotion, respect and love. We obey Him not to earn our Salvation but out of a desire to submit ourselves to Him. And we do this every day. And all prayer, the Mass, Eucharist, all the commandments, all the rules and regulations are there to help us Trust Him more every day AND also to make sure our Christian CULTURE honors and demonstrates our love for our LORD so that others will see His majesty and lordship and come to know and Trust Him also.
"Not I but the grace of God". I understand it like this. God's grace created the desire. Paul acted on that desire and God's grace provided the motivation but much more than just motivation, but also the drive to work harder. I see this to be so true in my life. My desire to know God is unnatural. I wasn't always like this. As a matter of fact, I was content to be a lost and depraved person. I would have preferred to stay that way without experiencing any of the negative consequences of that life. But God's grace made me alive. And that grace works in me to have the will to do what he desires. But having a will without doing is no good. So I act out of my will to do the desire he plants in me, and when I do that, it is as if he pours oil and gas into the engine to give me the drive, so I can't seem to let it go. Oh that I may know him. Whatever means are necessary!
Most people, if we believe, DON'T think we can live any way we want. The more we sin, the more hell we catch here on earth in this life. And, once we believe, our conscience (The Holy Spirit), guides us in our choices.
I also think that the Gospel, issuing forth in Sanctification should produce an increasing depth of awareness on our part of our sinfulness and the gulf that increasingly gets wider and further away form God's holiness which should bring another awareness that the only thing big enough and powerful enough to bridge the widening gap between our sinfulness and God's holiness is the Gospel. We are not only saved by the Gospel, but we must also live by it as well.
Thanks for this! I picture faith as the candy and works led by faith as the lovely-looking wrapping paper. Both are possible and good because of God’s grace, and it’ll be ridiculous to only care about the fancy paper but not the candy inside. The candy is why the wrapping paper has its function.
I think of GLAD singing A Debtor To Mercy - "A debtor to mercy alone Of covenant mercy I sing I come with Your righteousness on My humble offering to bring The judgments of Your holy law With me can have nothing to do My Savior’s obedience and blood Hide all my transgressions From view " "The work which Your goodness began The arm of Your strength will complete Your promise is yes and amen And never was forfeited yet The future or things that are now No power below or above Can make You Your purpose forego Or sever my soul from Your love " "My name from the palms of Your hands Eternity will not erase Impressed on Your heart it remains In marks of indelible grace Yes I, to the end will endure Until I bow down at Your throne Forever and always secure Forever and always secure Forever and always secure A debtor to mercy alone "
Our faith has to be demonstrated through our work only which is the most difficult thing to do that is to help others with their daily bread. James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
Given who we are left to our own devices and who God is, it's fitting that we should wrestle with these things. It's not surprising that understanding the process of sanctification would be alien to our fallen modus operandi.
Faith in Christ changes motivations of the heart which leads to a sanctifying faith where Christ takes you by the hand, provides a lamp for the feet, which leads to him. Through this walk with and toward Christ we become holy. At the end we meet Christ like that of Isaiah
There can be a major problem with using sanctification as a sign of saving faith. That is if I judge my salvation by my works. Many will always be fearful that they are not truly saved because they do not show enough sanctification. I think we should trust in God for our sanctification and salvation. If we wonder about our own salvation then we need to trust in Him and not look to see how well we are preforming.
It is better to be afraid without reason than feel safe while reality differs. What you say is true, but necessary for finding those who are not actually saved.
isn't that what Paul means though by "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"? that fear causes more self awareness which leads to greater repentance and further sanctification. no?
I don't contend for ongoing sin I'm making a point of that we do still sin I'm not saying we continue in sin I'm talking about the struggle with sin which never ends
Dang. What a duo. Trio, I should say, considering the Holy Spirit with these two
7 лет назад+1
Here's Piper on p 64 at his most irrational: "[Saving faith] is not merely agreement with the truth of a doctrine. Satan agrees with true doctrine (Jm 2:19). Saving faith is far deeper and more pervasive than that." The true Calvinist, Gordon Clark, in his book SAVING FAITH shows that faith is intellectual assent, alone. Now, what makes faith SAVING is not a change in the DEFINITION OF FAITH, but rather the proposition believed. When the OBJECT of faith involves ME, then reliance is involved. Consider the following beliefs: I believe . . . that the rope will hold a sandbag I believe . . . that the rope will hold ME. (Notice that the dependent clauses "that . . ." are the OBJECT, the proposition believed.) In the later case, reliance is involved because ME is in the proposition believed. SELF INTEREST is what creates the strong feelings. Piper of all people should recognize this. But the DEFINITION of faith is the same in both beliefs. What has changed is the OBJECT of what is believed, or in other words, the PROPOSITION's content. Now, it is true that Satan knows that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for ADAM's sin on the cross. But Satan knows that he is not a son of Adam and that Christ's promises are not available to HIM. So of course, Satan has no SELF INTEREST in the Gospel. The Gospel is for elect MEN, NOT DEMONS.
I wonder how many of these so-called Christians here in the comments who condemn Piper & Keller to hell actually know their heart and their purpose of this video. It's ironic because believers are condemning other believers. For the uninitiated, take time to actually read their literature and know their heart before jumping the gun. This video to me is just simply two men debating about sanctification in an unconventional manner where most people won't understand and decided to make a video about it. As it is obvious, they have opposing views as well. So, just listen with a pinch of salt or you can be the light and quietly leave - instead of assuming the role of Judge and condemning. Peace and Love to all.
Totally agree with you! We all agree that Jesus is God and saves us from our sin. We follow him, and are renewed and transformed. Disagreeing on minor things and being civil is more Christ like than being arrogant to others because you think they are wrong. Jesus is the judge, Jesus is the King. not us.
One more thought on this topic. Think of a mother who has created with her own hands a beautiful flower garden of most precious and favorite flowers. Then one day she is in her home tending to a task when she is interrupted by dirty fist full of her flowers, uprooted and being offered to her with a loving smile by her child. Sure she owns the flowers already and did all of the work, but she smiles and accepts the loving intension. We are like children, in that we have nothing to give the One who created everything, even ourselves. However, if I can find a flower within myself or can blossom into something presentable, I owe it to my Creator. I sure hope I am the good enough soil for flowers to grow.
wow that's a beautiful illustration, thank you!
Terrible analogy 🤦🏻♀️
Completely agree Six pence none the richer! C s Lewis
❤
Here's some good advice: Stay away from Calvinism. Stay away from TULIP theology, and stay away from this tendency by Calvinists to quote writers whike ignoring the Bible.
And no, speaker, we can't fulfill the law.
"if your faith is not producing love, it's not real."
Amen!
saving faith always produce love
Exactly
@ArchimedesBC
Exactly.
Read also James 1:27
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
Amen.. true. without love it is impossible to forgive.. because real forgiveness is to forget everything they had done to you.. 😊
There is sorrow in my heart because pastor Tim is not here anymore with us, but I have joy and comfort that he is with Our Lord and Saviour
well that was a great 15 min. 2 of my favourite teachers having discussions. Thanks.
the humility with which Pastor John speaks with his peer
"If you love me, you'll obey my commands." Justifying faith is a loving embrace of Christ. That same loving embrace yields loving obedience.
Jesus Christ lied and went to hell where all gentiles are today
I, sir, am a Calvinist, and I fail to see how anything I said conflicts with the doctrine of total depravity. Possessing a living faith in Christ saves, and that same living faith bears the fruit of love and obedience to Christ.
Will C Don't give up. If you haven't found people that are accepting. We should assemble to sing, and encourage, pray for one another and to learn and share.
I'll pray you find a place and don't give up until you find one. It doesn't even have to be in a "church" building. You could even start your own gathering.
The people are the church. Assemble together with other believers anywhere and do the things God has called us to do, when you do.
ruclips.net/video/COgvEZK6ilY/видео.html
Obedience that will lead you to do acts of love and charity towards your neighbors. Therefore if you do NOT do something to people in need (acts of charity in other words), then your faith ALONE doesn't save you.
I get hyped more and more in my walk with Christ when i come across to brothers in faith chopping it up as most of us do on a day to day basis especially leaders with wisdom
Wow, that 14 min. went by FAST! Can't get enough of this expository conversation and leadership with scriptural backing and reading assignments for the needy. Thanks for sharing!
I could listen to these two banter on forever.
An easy way to explain the need for good works is simply, imagine you have a best friend. They’ve been there for you, they’ve had your back, they’ve helped you when you needed help and time after time they’ve shown their unconditional friendship and love for you. So in turn, you WANT to help your friend. And the best way to help your best friend, is to help his best friend. And who is his best friend. Everyone.
Thank you! An important ,inspiring discussion. So thankful for both these teachers of God's Word. Tim Keller has lived and died well in Christ Jesus.
oh Desiring God,what wld I do without this platform??🤗Thank you! !!
Wish this conversation could go on longer and deeper! So inspiring and revealing!
I surrendered my life to Christ 4 months ago after struggling with anxiety and depression the suffering knocked me down into the dirt and as I was yelling for my heavenly father forgive me for running away living in sin and he came to me with open arms picking me up and dusting me off hugging me telling me he’ll never leave me he has always been there watching over me calling me back home into his loving embrace I know that nothing of this world will fill the void in my heart for the world will end but the love of God is forever I’ve finally filled my emptiness with Christ now I’m full never will I go hungry or thirsty and the life I now live is not my life but the life of Christ in me for Christ who was without sin laying his life down for sinners so that through him we will conquer sin that is death through his life I long to be with him and be like him I believe sanctification is such an important part of growing a relationship with God the father we must be willing to let go of worldly things see I idolized video games I spent 8 hours a days playing and when I wasn’t playing I was dreaming thinking talking about video games I loved video games my life revolved around video games I was trying to fill my emptiness with video games all it brought was false joy and happiness it wasn’t from God but from the world and I had to cut it out and put all my attention on God the source of joy peace love and everything that is good Christ is returning soon be ready brothers and sisters time is short
Amen! Becoming like Christ, which is not by human efforts or merits but by the power and guidance of Holy Spirit.
Thank you!
Amen brother!
Amen 💯%
Thankful for this discussion! I love the concept that the lady in Tim's story brought up. This infinitely wonderful salvation means that everything should be given to God with joy! It's only fitting.
Wow I just said that today to God. I had a rough night fighting resentment and anger that I felt the tough out of alignment. I know Gods peace and contentment that I don’t want to go back to my old ways and be blinded by grieving the Holy Spirit. God is good he worked it out in me and I am back on track
Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit within the life of the believer to generate and develop Godly character and to carry out good works prepared by God. Justification is through faith and we express our faith through repentance or a turning away from sinful patterns (inner and outer).
Is justification a work of the holy spirit
@@aacc2216 justification is a “decision” (more so than a work) made by God to treat you as being righteous, even though you aren’t based on you own actions, but through the actions of Christ.
Definition is just a starting point..What is the SPECIFIC PROCESS that the HOLY SPIRIT uses to make a person righteous, separate them from sin and changes them to be like Christ/JESUS??
8:48 “it’s motivated by joy” this is the best and most important thing said here. Period.
Otherwise it’s another heavy “to do” list added to people’s already hard lives, which would be absolutely ridiculous.
This conversation is rich, God honouring, and deserves several listenings from me
It's great to hear such thoughtful consideration of the Gospel. Iron shsrpening iron. RIP Keller!
Gold. Gonna have to watch this 10 more times.
Wow.. I could listen to these two for at least another hour...
We owe a debt... that we can't repay.
We stand empty handed before Him, yet we stand by His Grace alone, through faith alone, and in Christ alone.
Amen
@getrit3007Catholic gospel? Catholicism doesn’t teach that we are saved only by the blood of Jesus Christ. This whole idea that a person is good enough to go to Heaven based on their own good works/merit is a popular lie being caught in Catholicism and other religions. And it’s spreading like wildfire.
A.W. Pink says it very well in the following quote:
Just as the sinner's despair of any hope from himself is the first prerequisite of a sound conversion, so the loss of all confidence in himself is the first essential in the believer's growth in grace.
We can't perform for God we are fully accepted, perfected by the sacrifice of Christ. We are complete in Christ. Now our focus should be in loving God and others as God loves us. Or mental focus changes from i can keep the law to I'm not able . This is what sets us free from a performance trap. We can't keep the law that's the point. So surrender to God and allow his Spirit to gradually change us. Life in the spirit.
This was an amazing talk. I am a Catholic Christian and the crossroads of salvation and sanctification is always hard for me to wrap my head around. This video was so helpful!
That’s really interesting. Out of curiosity if you identify as Catholic, do you then believe in a saved by works salvation? As this video helps us understand that we are saved by grace alone and not of our own works as the bible says.
wow that never crossed my mind- that the more we walk in grace/due to grace, the greater our "debt" of grace becomes. I guess that's another way of thinking about how "grace abounds to me." Amazing is what grace will always be.
A.W. Pink says it very well in the following quote:
Just as the sinner's despair of any hope from himself is the first prerequisite of a sound conversion, so the loss of all confidence in himself is the first essential in the believer's growth in grace.
Two humble men in Christ willing to reflect yet take correction BUT more than happy to stand for the truth where it counts. Amazing discussion - 2 Timothy 2:23-24 -
23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
Praise God - how can we NOT live for HIM.
First time I heard blessing and cursing as 'remedial' for those not understanding the love of God. It is true. Christ loved us in spite of owning heaven itself. Why? Heaven has so much love stored up that He wanted to give us all a preview in his coming so that blessed or not, we love. Overwhelming! Great lesson in sanctification without which none will see God.
Time skips. Thank me later
00:20 - How Keller talks about sanctification
2:25 - What are we conforming to in sanctification?
3:45 - How does justification relate to sanctification?
6:40 - the psychological dynamics of faith
9:00 - What does it mean to "owe God everything"?
11:20 - "I'm going to work my tail off for Jesus, and it's all of grace."
I really like these guys. Intelligent and honest, they do well to unpack this topic of santification I think. I am not a Calvinist by the way. God bless you guys. P.S - I love the idea 'debtor to grace'. Fab
Wow, Keller still reads a lot to keep growing. So cool to see that come out in this great conversation.
It makes me happy when people talk about this topic and this style at the same time.
This is a great preaching.wish I could translate into Chinese for my people in Taiwan.
I am here because I heard of this great man's death today (May 19, 2023). See you at the resurrection TK.
Seized by a great affection. The love of God constrains me.
Great conversation and insight. The horns in the background are the most New York thing ever.
Pray for these 2 servants of our living God🙏🏻
God bless them for showing the way to so many❤️
This video was very helpful. I think that Christians will always need help understanding the difference between justification and sanctification. Much thanks to Tim and John.
“In fact, this is love for God: to keep His commands. And His commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.”-1 John 5:3-4
they weren't finished when the video ended! I wanna hear the rest of that
This was such a great conversation! Piper and Keller are always so thoughtful!
The greats! Piper and Keller.
We owe him everything. We've been saved by faith.
thank you for reminding me of why I obey…
We want and aim for sanctification or greater obedience to God not because we have to-but because He deserves it for everything He’s done. We want to live a life that shows our gratefulness to Him 🙏🏻🤍
Thank you Father for these men. Excellent under-shepherds.
Sanctification and and maturity goes together always no matter how hard the process, yet our relationship/intimacy with God makes the dividing line.
12:38 This is just perfect. Thank you.
I love the way he preface his answer as coming from a Presbyterian. Important nuance because they are fundamentally operating from a different perspective of theology. I think it also shows his understanding that there might be some difference.
Dangggggggggg. Going deeper into His grace even in obedience🤯 and how there’s no limit to what He can ask because He is our sufficiency. Fwehehego
Two great men of faith we get to see and hear in our generation. Maybe the last two of this kind.
God bless you Brothers thanks for all the good work in Christ I know many people will boast about you guys on the day of the Lord. Grace to all of my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus on RUclips. Great is the Lord our God
What is the relationship between justification and sanctification?
James Denney, the great theologian in Scottish Presbyterian circles 120 years ago, says that "true justification sanctifies." The context for that quote appears below to whet your appetite to read Denney, who I. Howard Marshall calls the theologian's theologian. What does it mean that true justification sanctifies and how does it work?
The Accuser counterfeits God's truth to confuse us about this relationship (2 Cor. 11:3ff). Denney gives us an insight into the nature of our confusion when he says: "We all love independence and ARE SLOW TO LEARN [my caps] that that is not the fundamental law of our nature; dependence is"--absolute dependence, I would add. Denney also humorously says "We are slow to know ourselves and sometimes do not wish to." “Slow to learn” certainly describes me. Does it describe you, too? We want to be in control and be achievers of what we need instead of being receivers who trust Christ to achieve it all for us-especially concerning our choices to do good. Dependence means sanctification flows naturally out of justification. That touches on why it works but doesn't explain how it works.
Michael Horton in For Calvinism gives us a hint as to how it DOESN'T work when he boldly declares that the will cannot be accessed directly but is a result of one’s heart and mind. Have you even once thought that you cannot access your will directly? To have that thought chops at the root of our self-righteous fallen nature we inherited from Adam, which is about autonomy or rebellion against dependence. Denney goes so far as to say that dependence annihilates self-righteousness. This means God initiates all good things in our lives and created us to live by responding to His goodness, by trusting His goodness-which we do by gazing into His presence. We receive rather than achieve all the good choices we make (James 1:17, 25). How that works is the big surprise in Denney’s words about sanctification.
At first glance, Denney’s words seem unsurprising if we have been in Christ for some years. We know that at conversion we abandoned all hope in ourselves and trusted the sin-bearing death of Christ. This justifying work of Christ made us holy (different, sanctified) in our relationship with God. We received the Great Exchange and are now righteous in Christ and no longer in Adam, trapped in our sin (in our missing the mark of righteousness). This means I’m a Jesus-is-my-righteousness Christian and so are you, even if you don’t see it yet.
The huge surprise in Denney’s words is that true justification sanctifies our present moment, and in doing so sanctifies our motivation and our choices. This makes them pure and good. What this means and how it works is difficult to grasp because of its simplicity. Our pride craves credit for our good behavior and blinds us to the simplicity of how dependence on Christ works. Christ didn’t give us a new identity that is something like a rock in our pocket that gives us the power to do good and avoid evil. Christ gives us Himself.
Paul’s first command in Colossians points to how Christ works in and through us, but his words are easy to miss (Colossians 2:6-8). Denney basically shouts them at us when he says that absolutely every moment of the Christian life is an identical experience with our conversion when we looked away from ourselves and trusted the moral perfection and sin-bearing death of Christ. We saw and see God’s law glorified in the atonement-which Denney says is the only way he can read the New Testament.
When we look there we see the joy of the Lord in the glory of Christ because “God is well pleased for His righteousness sake to exalt the law and make it glorious” (Isaiah 42:21). When we see God’s pleasure in moral perfection fulfilled and honored in Christ, we participate in His joy and we experience “The joy of the Lord as our strength” (Nehemiah 8:10). Denney says that vision is infinite motivation to do good works. That’s how our moment is sanctified-set apart from self-righteous thoughts and evil actions.
At conversion, God gives us a new heart/mind of righteousness (the mind of Christ; 1 Cor. 2:16) that naturally produces good choices (Gal. 5:22f; Eph. 5:9)-when and only when we use it instead of using our old Adamic self-righteous mind. I'm passionately persuaded of Horton's insight and it's at the heart of my approach to witnessing to hundreds of Mormons annually. I'm privileged to have my passion for the gospel to be my vocation as a full-time evangelist to Mormons in Utah-my career for the past 4 decades.
Mormons rebel against Horton's insight and seek to access their will directly by looking at individual points of God's good law and then trying to follow what they see. Not seeing the law as a seamless whole-as all or nothing-is cheating with standards and is why they carry a heavy load of self-condemnation for failure. I don’t tell Mormons these things. Instead, I lead them to discover and trust that God’s law requires moral perfection now. This brings Jesus into the conversation as the embodiment of the law. This surprises them and keeps surprising them as they discover that Jesus in His moral perfection and sin-bearing death is all their righteousness and all their holiness (1 Cor. 1:30) and that they should have noticed all that before (Rom. 1:18-19).
This discovery leads them to the foot of the cross where they see their need to trust Jesus to be their righteousness and to give up trying to be righteous by slowly improving. They say they need to trust Jesus’ work and say thankfulness is the right response to this greatest of all gifts. I urge them to embrace what they say is true and learn to trust through thankfulness for the work of Christ. I pray with them to model it. But abandoning their self-righteous identity in Adam is mind-blowing to them, especially since they've been trained to not think for themselves. One old Mormon told me that Jesus appeared to him when he was 17 and told him to take that step, but he didn’t because his church said he wasn’t allowed to. He finally did, 64 years later just before he died.
Here's the context for "true justification sanctifies." It's the last paragraph in chapter 1 in The Atonement and the Modern Mind by James Denney-which is free online. If you’re interested in Denney, I suggest starting with his Studies in Theology which is a series of lectures given to seminary students in 1894 and which contains a section on the relationship between the atonement and our new life in Christ. I read it closely at least every two years. For me, reading Denney is like drinking fire-the burning fire of God’s presence (Isaiah 33:14f).
"There is the demand that the Atonement shall be exhibited in vital relation to a new life in which sin is overcome. This demand also is entirely legitimate, and it touches a weak point in traditional Protestant doctrine. Dr. Chalmers [Thomas Chalmers] tells us that he was brought up-such was the effect of the current orthodoxy upon him-in a certain distrust of good works. Some were certainly wanted, but not a being themselves salvation, only, as he puts it, as tokens of justification. It was a distinct stage in his religious progress when he realized that true justification sanctifies, and that the soul can and ought to abandon itself spontaneously and joyfully to do the good that it delights in. The modern mind assumes what Dr. Chalmers painfully discovered. An atonement that does not regenerate, it truly holds, is not an atonement in which men can be asked to believe. Such then, in its prejudices good and bad, is the mind to which the great truth of the Christian religion has to be presented."
John Piper wrote the preface to the recent Crossway Books edition of Chalmers transcribed lecture on his insight: The Expulsive Power of a New Affection. Read it closely to notice Horton's insight embedded in it.
Here's my summary of how true justification sanctifies:
"When I see you in a good way, I treat you in a good way, but when I see you self-righteously, I judge and mistreat you."
Fyodor Dostoevsky puts the connection in terms of love:
"To love a person means to see him as God intended him to be."
Enough said on my favorite topic.
Wow! You hit the nail on the head.
Thank you very much for taking time to talk about this. It's so easy to get caught on the wrong side. I needed to hear this.
I like it how the Lord put it in that parable (Luke 17:10), that of all the good we have done, as an outwork of sanctification (through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Spirit); we account as our DUTY (a DEBT as the duo have put it) enabled ONLY by His Spirit (by grace as Mr. Piper rightfully quotes Apostle Paul).
I could never repay my debt to God.. because I’m so thankful that He saved me I show my gratitude by obedience. My disobedience is the reason He had to go to the Cross because I cannot save myself. I’m not repaying I’m loving ..doing what comes natural when you are truly grateful. Not expecting to gain anything for my obedience.
Sanctification. Holiness.
“Washed and set apart.”
You have been washed and set apart for God.
You have been made Holy.
You take the first step. God takes the second step and by the time you take the third step you find out God took the first step- Steve Brown
Tim ,God bless you, till we are united again
What a great conversation to be able to listen in on.
Wow, love you guys. 😊 Jesus is Lord 👑
This brings to mind when I was 13 and the thought came into my mind that all my life I was getting and getting from God and never giving. I wanted to give back so I sought to obey him by getting baptized and going with our youth leader out into the streets to pass out tracks even though as an introvert, it was it was very uncomfortable for me.
love this , thank you for sharing ,I need to pray this for me too as we do a preaching course , not that I'm doing any preaching but it is about learning how to study the Bible more effectively
I love both of these men and there ministries
The moment we believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ are we from the point in time holy? I believe we are are holy! I mean, positional sanctification and Justification. And in our day to day walk with the Lord we are progressively sanctified, We are being transformed from one degree of glory to another into the perfect image of King Jesus Christ by the leading of the Holy Spirit. This is what I believe sanctification is.Thanks to Dr, John Piper and Tim Keller for making clearer this doctrine. Reading through the comments of many, I again thank PIPER and KELLER for the presentation. I believe they could not have presented all the Biblical evidences and the contrary views to this subject given the time limit.
Mbanga Peter
May 7, 2017
WOW! Actually, Mbanga, **Ephesians 1.3-13 says that God did all that you said for us before the foundation of the world, for the praise of His Glorious Grace!** HOW AWESOME IS THAT! WOW, AGAIN, TO OUR AWESOME GOD AND TO HIS MAGNIFICENT SON, JESUS CHRIST, NOW AND FOREVERMORE!!
05:50 min - I have been going on the premise that works can add zero to my salvation. However, when a new Christian stops to think and/or realize the magnitude of what they have just been given, then works will follow; not as any requirement, but out of loving response for the gift. This only gradually crept into my thinking, over many years before I saw the light for what it is. People sing 'Lord, I want to love you more...'. Jesus said, 'if you love me you will keep my commands. And, ' I love obedience more than sacrifice.' And so I have to ask myself, 'How MUCH do I love Jesus'.
I don't think I've been this invested in the comment section in a long time.
Beautiful Stuff! As a fellow seeker I puzzle over these things but joy in the ineffable”ness” of these things also!
Amazing teaching. .. "the beauty of the good." Praise GOD!"
I owe it to my parents that I exist but they don't expect a repayment. I owe it to my Heavenly Father and His Son that I am a child of God but no repayment expected!!!!! That Grace caused my sanctification. If not, then I am trying to cause it, showing a lack of trust in the finished work of the Cross. Now I am owed wages (Romans 4) and have fallen from grace (Gal. 5). Just rest in the Finished Work and accept that you have already been accepted, In Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
POWERFUL GUYS VERY INSPIRATIONAL SPEAKERS CLASS..... AWESOME..GOD BLESS YOU ALL
They are not inspirational speakers class, Valirie Tompkins. Unlike many other preachers work to please people while they teach, these guys especially Piper to the best of my knowledge does not at all! He is a pioneering preacher of the Gospel.
Amen. Finally the Protestant world finally seems to be coming back to what the Catholic Church has said the Bible teaches all along.
God’s grace allows us the ability and the free will to Trust Him with our whole heart, mind and soul. And when we realize the sheer majesty and splendor of our Creator we fall down on our knees and worship him deeply out of reverence, devotion, respect and love. We obey Him not to earn our Salvation but out of a desire to submit ourselves to Him. And we do this every day.
And all prayer, the Mass, Eucharist, all the commandments, all the rules and regulations are there to help us Trust Him more every day AND also to make sure our Christian CULTURE honors and demonstrates our love for our LORD so that others will see His majesty and lordship and come to know and Trust Him also.
"Not I but the grace of God". I understand it like this. God's grace created the desire. Paul acted on that desire and God's grace provided the motivation but much more than just motivation, but also the drive to work harder. I see this to be so true in my life. My desire to know God is unnatural. I wasn't always like this. As a matter of fact, I was content to be a lost and depraved person. I would have preferred to stay that way without experiencing any of the negative consequences of that life. But God's grace made me alive. And that grace works in me to have the will to do what he desires. But having a will without doing is no good. So I act out of my will to do the desire he plants in me, and when I do that, it is as if he pours oil and gas into the engine to give me the drive, so I can't seem to let it go. Oh that I may know him. Whatever means are necessary!
Most people, if we believe, DON'T think we can live any way we want. The more we sin, the more hell we catch here on earth in this life. And, once we believe, our conscience (The Holy Spirit), guides us in our choices.
💯
very healthy conversation about the gospel
How great is the one that saved me!
Great video, thanks for sharing.
(Side note, interesting this is from 2012)
Wow how come no one has responded to you here in this comment section?
What happened in 2012?
@@stefan.vincent he was saying that the interview was actually done in 2012, the video was uploaded in 2016.
"...because of the beauty of the Good, youd like that term". LOL Keller
Blessing to watch.
Thank you!
If We merge John and Tim Keller we get Johnkeller and if we shorten the word , it is Jonkler !
WHY SO SERIOUS?! **STARTS INTENSE BEATBOXING**
I also think that the Gospel, issuing forth in Sanctification should produce an increasing depth of awareness on our part of our sinfulness and the gulf that increasingly gets wider and further away form God's holiness which should bring another awareness that the only thing big enough and powerful enough to bridge the widening gap between our sinfulness and God's holiness is the Gospel. We are not only saved by the Gospel, but we must also live by it as well.
Thanks for this! I picture faith as the candy and works led by faith as the lovely-looking wrapping paper. Both are possible and good because of God’s grace, and it’ll be ridiculous to only care about the fancy paper but not the candy inside. The candy is why the wrapping paper has its function.
This was very insightful.
I think of GLAD singing A Debtor To Mercy - "A debtor to mercy alone
Of covenant mercy I sing
I come with Your righteousness on
My humble offering to bring
The judgments of Your holy law
With me can have nothing to do
My Savior’s obedience and blood
Hide all my transgressions
From view " "The work which Your goodness began
The arm of Your strength will complete
Your promise is yes and amen
And never was forfeited yet
The future or things that are now
No power below or above
Can make You Your purpose forego
Or sever my soul from Your love
" "My name from the palms of Your hands
Eternity will not erase
Impressed on Your heart it remains
In marks of indelible grace
Yes I, to the end will endure
Until I bow down at Your throne
Forever and always secure
Forever and always secure
Forever and always secure
A debtor to mercy alone "
jesus is lord
Amen he is King!
Exactly what works shall I do to be saved, and what shouldn't I do in what point in my life to be saved?
Our faith has to be demonstrated through our work only which is the most difficult thing to do that is to help others with their daily bread.
James 1:27
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
Given who we are left to our own devices and who God is, it's fitting that we should wrestle with these things. It's not surprising that understanding the process of sanctification would be alien to our fallen modus operandi.
Faith in Christ changes motivations of the heart which leads to a sanctifying faith where Christ takes you by the hand, provides a lamp for the feet, which leads to him. Through this walk with and toward Christ we become holy. At the end we meet Christ like that of Isaiah
But even closer
A desire to delight and please Him yes!
There can be a major problem with using sanctification as a sign of saving faith. That is if I judge my salvation by my works. Many will always be fearful that they are not truly saved because they do not show enough sanctification. I think we should trust in God for our sanctification and salvation. If we wonder about our own salvation then we need to trust in Him and not look to see how well we are preforming.
It is better to be afraid without reason than feel safe while reality differs.
What you say is true, but necessary for finding those who are not actually saved.
Okay but why do you have to choose either? Why not be afraid because you are truly saved? I think you have only presented a false dichtomy.
Carl Peterson Just weigh your priorities. Perfect love will drive out unnecessary fear.
Okay. That is why I am against using how much we believe we have been sanctified in this world to judge our salvation. I am glad you agree.
isn't that what Paul means though by "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"? that fear causes more self awareness which leads to greater repentance and further sanctification. no?
I don't contend for ongoing sin I'm making a point of that we do still sin I'm not saying we continue in sin I'm talking about the struggle with sin which never ends
God bless! DesiringGod helps me a lot! Just a lotttt
Dang. What a duo. Trio, I should say, considering the Holy Spirit with these two
Here's Piper on p 64 at his most irrational: "[Saving faith] is not merely agreement with the truth of a doctrine. Satan agrees with true doctrine (Jm 2:19). Saving faith is far deeper and more pervasive than that."
The true Calvinist, Gordon Clark, in his book SAVING FAITH shows that faith is intellectual assent, alone. Now, what makes faith SAVING is not a change in the DEFINITION OF FAITH, but rather the proposition believed. When the OBJECT of faith involves ME, then reliance is involved. Consider the following beliefs:
I believe . . . that the rope will hold a sandbag
I believe . . . that the rope will hold ME.
(Notice that the dependent clauses "that . . ." are the OBJECT, the proposition believed.)
In the later case, reliance is involved because ME is in the proposition believed. SELF INTEREST is what creates the strong feelings. Piper of all people should recognize this.
But the DEFINITION of faith is the same in both beliefs. What has changed is the OBJECT of what is believed, or in other words, the PROPOSITION's content.
Now, it is true that Satan knows that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for ADAM's sin on the cross. But Satan knows that he is not a son of Adam and that Christ's promises are not available to HIM. So of course, Satan has no SELF INTEREST in the Gospel. The Gospel is for elect MEN, NOT DEMONS.
:0...I love these two wonderful men of God.
I wonder how many of these so-called Christians here in the comments who condemn Piper & Keller to hell actually know their heart and their purpose of this video. It's ironic because believers are condemning other believers. For the uninitiated, take time to actually read their literature and know their heart before jumping the gun. This video to me is just simply two men debating about sanctification in an unconventional manner where most people won't understand and decided to make a video about it. As it is obvious, they have opposing views as well. So, just listen with a pinch of salt or you can be the light and quietly leave - instead of assuming the role of Judge and condemning. Peace and Love to all.
Totally agree with you! We all agree that Jesus is God and saves us from our sin. We follow him, and are renewed and transformed. Disagreeing on minor things and being civil is more Christ like than being arrogant to others because you think they are wrong. Jesus is the judge, Jesus is the King. not us.
excellent discussion. thank you!
Sanctification is the fruit of justification.
I think Tim meant to say "By grace through faith" and not "by grace and faith". 7:04