Short Action Customs (SAC) vs Whidden Sizing Die Comparison
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- VIEW MY PLAYLISTS BELOW!! Hi everyone! This is a comparison between the Short Action Customs FL Sizing Die and the Whidden Gunworks FL Sizing Die to see if the more expensive die is worth the spend for PRS accuracy. Enjoy!
00:00 Intro
01:07 Why The Comparison?
03:10 Die Comparison
08:57 Runout Comparison
12:25 Group Comparison (100yds)
16:15 Numerical Comparison of Groups
20:40 Final Thoughts
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When your POA is the same as your POI, it makes it hard to get a finite POI because you disturb your aiming point each time you put a hole in it. Recommend having a small aiming point and keep scope adjusted two inches taller than your POA
Great point Justice! Thanks for watching my friend!
Great video! I liked most the way the video was presented with chapters and the added notes. I have been using the SAC bushings for some time with RCBS dies and they seem to work very well. I also use a sperate die for the mandrel. Thanks for the video!
Hi William! Thanks for the kind words! It's great that you can use the SAC bushings in the other dies...I'll look at my Whidden and see if it'll fit. Thanks for watching my friend!
Another great comparison. Thanks for spending your money to help us save ours! Love the counsin vinny clip!
Hi Ray! I couldn't resist the "Identical"...My wife and I use it all the time! Thanks for watching as usual my friend!
It’s the type of bushing that controls runout! You need to use tapered bushings, like SAC or LE Wilson, for minimal runout! Put your SAC bushing in your Whidden die and see what happens! I’d bet you’ll see less runout that mirrors what the SAC dies give you! I’m using both in Whidden and Redding die bodies and the runout is 1-2 thousandths max! I like the Whidden stuff because he also sells expander ball kits in various sizes. So now I dial in exactly how much neck tension with the bushing and adjustable expander ball! The biggest plus is, I can go back to decapping, resizing and setting neck tension all in 1 pull on the press, with mandrel like runout! Lube, resize, wet tumble, then anneal. Which also does double duty to dry the cases! Trim if necessary!
Great channel! I like the content. Great job!
Thanks Jim! And thanks for watching my friend!
Great video, detail is well welcomed and articulate, thanks.
Thanks for the kind words Stephen, and for watching my friend!
Awesome video sir, very detailed.
Only one suggestion when shooting groups, dial 1-2 moa windage so you aren’t tearing up your aim point.
Hi Braxton! Not a bad idea since we really are interested in the vertial dispersion for this type of test. Thanks for watching my friend!
Very informative, thanks for the video.
Thanks for the kind words and for watching Elmo!
Thank you for all you do. I spoke with Adam from SAC a while ago about the mandrel issue here are his instructions or comment :
In order for the mandrel to work properly in congruency with the neck/shoulder bushings shims are required. The bushing needs to sit on the fat part of the mandrel, towards the end to ensure proper handoff of the brass. We generally recommend starting by placing 2 of the larger shims between the C clip on the mandrel and top cap and see where the bushing is sitting at that point. From there, you can make the fine adjustments with the other shims provided. This should clean the process up for ya.
Adam
Hi Manuel, My issue was with a bad collet, which they did replace and now the die and mandrel work great. My biggest gripe with them was their lack of trust...I had to send them pictures to prove to their engineers that THEIR product was bad...Those were the words from the gentleman I spoke to initially. Adam did reach out to me and we got it all straightened out. Thanks for the input though! And thanks for watching my videos my friend!
UPDATE: I miss-stated the sizing process at the 5:50 mark. The text from their website is correct but I reversed it in what I said. The die does size MORE which means it sizes "smaller" at the base than at the shoulder. I apologize to SAC for this miss-statement.
Man! To be honest I would be PISSED. Like you said there are imperfections in machining but they should be testing every part that comes off their line to ensure proper operation with the claims they make about how “perfect” their dies are.
@@rwhipple73 I was pretty mad. When I told the guy I'd wasted 20 cases of Alpha brass at $1.25/case I got no response. There will be a follow-up video on just the SAC die and it won't be pretty.
@@The4GunGuy Ouch.....yeah. Honestly, I wouldn't expect anything different based on other comments about them. Shoot, to even get your PRS discount with them, you have to email and wait for them to give you a code or whatever which is fine, but it took 2 weeks for me to get a response. Seems a bit crazy to require 2 weeks to create a discount code and respond to an email, shoot even a reply to say we're working on it, and give us a couple weeks would have been fine. Anyways. They have some interesting products just not sure if I'm going to dive into it with them or not.
Thanks for the video. Great, unbiased perspective with an honest conclusion. Despite being in love with my SAC dies, it‘s important to be aware of the very limited effect the tools (dies, press, etc) have on the end result when the components and rifle are well matched and the reloading process is solid.
Hi GunWodan! Thanks for the kind words! I've had a lot of comments mentioning running just the SAC bushing in the Whidden die and I should have done that as well, but just didn't think about it. I must say though that the combination of the SAC die and SAC bushing AND SAC mandrel all in one has been a great combination and has cut down my reloading time by doing all at once. Glad it's working out for you as well, and thanks for watching my friend!
@@The4GunGuy before switching to the SAC modular dies, I also tried SAC bushings in my Redding dies - improving my runout in some situations. As you‘ve demonstrated though, runout as a metric appears to be massively overrated. Considering you can even get the SAC mandrels with a decapping pin (for a premium of course) you can save a lot of time with their system ( for a price … ) and also get amazing runout .. which might matter or not 😂
Thank you for the comparison of these two very good sizing dies. I had to smile when you said that your buddy Jeff makes you spend money. Well, your new buddy Jeff will try to save you a little here. I have used John Whidden custom sizing dies for years now and with one, you can have a sizing die that matches the chamber of your rifle exactly for about $200. Just send out you fired cases to John Whidden and about 2 months later, you get a precision cut die. My typical bullet concentricities are ~.001 - .0015in of runout. LE Wilson bushing dies are just about as good too. I not taking anything away from SAC. I just don't have any experience with them so I cant speak of them. Take care!
Hi Jeff! Yeah, I'm getting to the point that what I have is working just fine and I have no need to chase new things. The SAC die has worked out well after having some mandrel issues which they fixed. Thanks for watching my friend!
Great video, expensive Die (SAC), ive used their products, they are of great quality, but a little pricey, i stick to the premium redding dies, and use a Sinclair mandrel die for concentricity for runout control, great video
Hi Grabbabite! Yeah, I tend to agree with you. While I did see a marked improvement in runout, was the juice really worth the squeeze? Thanks for watching my friend!
Great video unfortunately i just spent a boat load on there dies, sizing and seating ,mandrels, bushing, etc over 2 G's i hope i have better luck
Thank you for breaking this down to the detail you did. I think the point of diminishing returns really comes up here with the cost going up as it did with the SAC dies. To me, its not worth the extra cost and it helps me determine next steps for a caliber upgrade. Maybe, the benchrest guys would benefit here, but being a PRS shooter, I can't justify the extra cost.
Hi Synapses! Yep, don't get me wrong, I love that SAC die now that it works, but as you said, for PRS and at my level of competing, it's just overkill. I was looking at their new seating die, but for ~$425, I'll stick with my L.E. Wilson which has been great. Thanks for the kind words and for watching my friend!
The Whidden bushing looks like an RCBS bushing. I have quite a bit of SAC's offerings but haven't tried their sizing dies. Great video.
Thanks Michael!
This is a great overview. I’m running a 6mm BRA on a Fuzion action, 26” Rock Creek prefit from PVA, and Foundation stock. I tend to think that we as precision guys tend to obsess over the new shiny widget. I’m running a Rockchucker press, Whidden dies, and dual charge masters for single digit SD and unbelievably tiny groups. I verified my elevation at 600 last month and printed a 1 inch group - I’m not changing a damn thing 😂
Bill, I think you hit the nail on the head. However sometimes you never know until you or someone you trust tries and tests some of these gadgets.
Hi Bill...My exact thoughts: If it works why change it! I was just interested to see whether the tighter runout would translate into lower SD's/ES's and/or better groups. As you can see, neither was the case. I'll probably just stick with my Whidden since I'm now having some issues with the SAC...I can't get it to be repeatable after I added the mandrel to it. Calling them today to see what's up. Thanks for watching my friend!
@@rwhipple73 yep, agree 100%. A few guys at my club tried out the Micron/SAC dies. I decided to pass based on their lackluster feedback
3B accuracy principle : good barrel, good bullets and good brass. It's what makes the REAL difference
Seating die has as much of an influence on bullet runout as does the sizing die.
Very helpful
Thanks BlueJay!
Thanks.
Im using a Whidden die with a SAC standard bushing (S style). I use the SAC bushing in my Redding dies too and the run-out is better, .001 to .002...There is no doubt that the SAC dies are awesome but as long as you use a SAC bushing , you can use a Lee die and get decent run-out results I'd imagine. Cool video, Sub'd
HI Rick! I'm hearing more of folks just using the bushing in a different die and plan on doing a video on that soon. Thanks for watching my friend!
Thanks man you are awesome. May I suggest at least a 10 shot string for SD and ES. Also I believe Eric Cortina did his record 1k group with 5 thousands runout
Hi Kyley! Yep, Don't know why I did 7 only for each string, I think at the time those were my last 14 so I went with them. Agree that even 5 thou runout isn't as bad as we're led to believe. Thanks for watching my friend!
@@The4GunGuy yes sir. As always thanks
@@The4GunGuy I mean take your calipers and set them for 5 thousandths and see what the gap is……I get it that we’re looking for precision but at some point you have to decide “is the juice worth the squeeze”.
Maybe someone who is a consistent top 3 finisher and is trying to squeeze every last tenth of a percentage point of consistency out of his loads then maybe you spend every dime you can afford to. Don’t know.
I bought them after i saw UR Gavin Tubes reviews and he loved them that's why i spent the money.
Hi Donald! They're good dies, don't get me wrong. But, I just wasted ~20 cases finding out that they sent me a bad collet for the mandrel and they were less than apologetic about it. I'll use this die, but won't be buying anything else from them. Hey thanks for watching my friend and good luck with your reloading!
@@The4GunGuy Thank you
I would like to say i dealt with Adam about 10 times on helping me with orders, and he couldn't have been more helpful and nicer, i would try again to they always got right back to me i haven't used the dies yet but will be doing that soon, i feel very confident in the company and there products.
I have the SAC dies. My 6.5cr I had to send back because it was not sizing. They fixed it. For the mandrels, I find that these dies are very sensitive to how you lubricate (just cause there is so much going on) - once you get the hang of it, its a very consistent sizer. The only reason I like the price of admission a few advantages it has over other dies - like the new Area419, it sizes the base of case, their bushing does a great job of sizing the neck and shoulder combined, and it also takes shims to adjust per .001. Plus it saves on the mandrel operation.
Hey S F! I was on the phone with them for about 30 minutes today...took Adam through my process and showed him how the initial setup (decapping pin) sized fine, but when I tried to go to the mandrel we found that I had a bad collet (the 1/4"), so he asked me to take pictures and send them to them so they could send me out a new collet. I understand that machining isn't perfect...BUT, when you're telling how perfect your machining is, then I expect that in MY product. Pretty upset after wasting more than a few cases @ $1.25 a case trying to make it work. We'll see how the new collet performs. Thanks for letting me rant and for watching my friend!
@@The4GunGuy funny. I got the wrong collet the first time too. I agree about the QC at that price point. It will work great when it’s corrected though.
Could you run the SAC bushing in the Whidden? I've heard that the length of sizing on the neck is shorter on a SAC bushing. I wonder if the concentrity would also improve if you used their bushing in a Redding or Whidden die. Great video by the way.
I use SAC bushings in my Whidden and Redding dies and get .001 to .002 run-out. SAC "S" style bushings are the only way to go...
Both have good quality, way enough for PRS. But for benchrest or F-Class I would use a Whidden for sure. You send 2 or 3 fired cases to John Whidden he will make a die with your own chamber dimensions (longer brass life, more accuracy). PRS doesn't require this accuracy level. I would choose the fastest est and the easiest reloading techniques for PRS (standard full length dies without bushings), anneal each time before sizing, and also check your case headspace each time also.
Hi Laminak! All good points and agree with the Whidden for f-class. Thanks for watching my friend!
Redo this test with the SAC bushing in the whidden die. The runout might change and the cheaper die isn't the issue.
Hi John! Yeah, I was thinking about doing that...Look for it soon and thanks for watching my friend!
How much does the SAC die size the base or the web of a case vs the Whidden? Supposedly the case fully enters the SAC die to size the web or the base of the case to prevent clickers.
Love my SAC Dies; won't run anything else if they offer it. However, I do not ascribe to the belief that a sizing die will provide an ample improvement of SD/ES, accuracy, etc.
Hi Progressive! Yep, As you can see by my results, my SD's and ES's weren't in difference with each other. Interesting though how on the one die group the fps started higher and went lower, but on the other, they started lower and went higher. Hey, thanks for watching as usual my friend!
just realize that a 3 SD yields a 98% population of 18 ES. pet peeve of mine is folks using stats for reloading without fully understanding the numbers. The die comparison was great.
Thanks for the input James. My belief is that the ES is more important for what I shoot. Once the barrel is "fouled", say 20 shots worth in my case after a good cleaning, I start to look at the ES of say 30 shots and go from there. ES is giving me that spread for that group and my expectation is that IF I reload with consistency, I shouldn't see a medium or large variance from that spread for each reloading session (barring environmental conditions of course, but that's another story...Seasonal reloading). My goal is to reach an ES across said 30 shots of less than 15...I do take into consideration the fact that the Standard Deviation is really the statistical representation of ALL the fired rounds in that measured string. Thanks for watching my friend!
I think the run out might be more a function of the bushing, than the die. I use the SAC bushing in a Whidden die and have very little run out.
Hi Richard! Yep, a good point and I've heard many others talk about just using the SAC busing in another die. I should have included that option in the video but wanted to compare the overall dies. Thanks for watching my friend!
What about cleaning? Why wasn’t gun cleaned after first 7? Might make some difference !
Hey I know where this is !! I shoot there often
Intereting whatching you shoot. Starting right and pulling into the target, shooting the group after the first round and not the target. That's when you know your rifle is a tack driver. I just opened Pandora's Box by buying a long range rifle and reloading tools. Sometimes I wonder why I can be so cruel to myself!
Hi Paul! I can assure you that my intention was to shoot the center red dot on the target. It may look like I'm shooting the group, but I wasn't...I think my audio was out of sync with the video just a tad, which would make it look that way. Have fun with the new rifle and reloading, and welcome to the rabbit hole! Thanks for watching my friend!
I’m completely new to reloading and still deciding which dies to buy (so far I haven’t purchased any dies for any caliber) that being said and after all the testing and comparisons, which does would you recommend? I was leaning towards the SAC and Area419 but since I have ZERO previous experience I rather ask the more experienced guys. Thank you
Hi Gatrophyhunter! Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong with the Whidden setup. I think this video shows you that 2.5x the price doesn't really get you 2.5x the results (and yes, the Whidden runout was 0.005" and the SAC was 0.0015, which is better than 2.5x, but that's not what I'm talking about here...How does that difference translate into accuracy is what I mean, and there are so many differing opinions on that!). Now, if you want to get into a different level of preciseness, then go with the SAC and get EXACTLY what you want from a runout perspective since you can really dial that in with various mandrels. Hope this helps, and please watch my video on runout ruclips.net/video/8iA6aeC4gP4/видео.html for more information. Finally, it really depends on what you're going to use the reloads for and how accurate you really want/need to be. For PRS, plinking or hunting, I think the Whidden is perfect. For say, F-Class, maybe not, and you'll go with the SAC. I've spent so much money on things that really didn't move the dial, and that's what I'm hoping to educate people on. Thanks for the question and thanks for watching my friend!
thank you for this viedo. but really need to do shoot 20 or more to be statistacilly plosable
put the SAC bushing in the Whidden
When you're shooting for groups you can't destroy your aiming point. Dial the scope down and miss your aiming point on purpose. Also with you SAC shot group I noticed that you kept allowing your aiming point to climb. Probably because you shot your aim point all to hell and gone. Great video though. :)
Thanks Rico!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:02 🤔 *Úvod do série porovnání cenově dostupných a dražších nástrojů pro střelbu.*
00:29 💰 *Porovnání dvou různých velikostních matric a jejich ceny.*
00:57 🔬 *Testování koncentricity znovu načtených kol s různými matricemi.*
01:33 🎯 *Zkušenosti s použitím matrice Whidden Gun Works pro 6mm BRA.*
02:27 🛒 *Popis nákupu matrice Short Action Customs.*
03:11 💵 *Cenový rozdíl mezi matricemi Whidden a Short Action Customs.*
04:03 🛠️ *Rozdíly v konstrukci a příslušenství obou matric.*
05:32 🔧 *Technické rozdíly mezi matricemi a jejich vliv na extrakci nábojnic.*
06:56 ⚙️ *Detailní porovnání vložek matric a jejich kvality zpracování.*
09:00 📏 *Měření koncentricity nábojnic po použití obou matric.*
12:05 🎯 *Výsledky střelby na terč na 100 yardů s oběma matricemi.*
17:42 📊 *Analýza dat z výsledků střelby a porovnání SD a ES pro obě matrice.*
20:41 🤷♂️ *Závěrečné myšlenky na to, zda jsou vyšší náklady na matrici Short Action Customs oprávněné.*
22:29 🔍 *Plán dalšího testování matrice Short Action Customs a její koncentricity.*
Made with HARPA AI
What about seating dies? I have heard good things about their seating die and how it's modular for different cartridges. Have you had any experience with that die?
I know you use an arbor press and I was also curious if it's worth it to use a more expensive press like a hydro press vs a less expensive one like the K&M with the force pack?
Hi ForceRecon! I'm waiting to see the price of that thing but I'm sure it will be high! I'm happy with my seating setup so far though and given the experience I had with SAC on this sizing die, not sure I'll be interested. Thanks for watching my friend!
@@The4GunGuy Thanks for all the awesome content! I know "The" Seating die from SAC is 375 and I know you can have a K&M arbor press with force pack and a wilson seater is like 350 or something. I've heard so much good about arbor press seating that I wonder if it's worth it as well
@@ForceRecon112 I thought you were talking about their new bullet seating die they're coming out with that uses a press...Sorry I misunderstood. I'd love to see how the new die works but won't be an early adopter!
@@The4GunGuy oh their new arbor seater? That thing looks sick!
Hard bolt lift on the SACs because of the taper in the case body, which I would expect to result in progressive difficult bolt lift and extraction issues. You can buy a ring die to fix this, but why introduce the problem to begin with?
Hi Bob! Yeah, I'm going to get this replacement collet and load up about 20 rounds, then see how they shoot from an accuracy, SD/ES, and, that bolt lift. If it's still stiff, then this thing is out and I'll go back to my Whidden. Thanks for watching my friend!
Bob, you should not have heavy bolt lift with the modular sizing die at all. The modular sizing die sizes more at the base and less at the shoulder unlike what the video states.
@@alansmith6286 Hi Alan, I do state the sizing larger at the base and less at the shoulder at 5:50 in the video which is not correct and I've pinned a comment at the top of the video. My mistake as I thought I was stating it the right way but got my words mixed up! Thanks for watching by the way!
After 10 months, what do you think about the SAC dies?
Hi Ed! I really like the sizing die, but for PRS, hunting or plinking I'd stick with the Whidden. I was anticipating the SAC press style bullet seating die and almost bought one, but again, for my use, it just doesn't make sense to spend that kind of money, so sticking with my L.E. Wilson seating die. Thanks for watching my friend!
Any chance you used the Whidden bushing with the stamped numbers facing up? It would make it cockeyed. Why not try again with the numbers on the Whidden bushing stoned down? How about buying SAC neck bushings made to fit a standard/common bushing die? They make them, $35 each in Jan 2024. They make dies to fit normal bushings too.
Hi jtee! I don't think the numbers were up, but I'll check. Also agree with the SAC neck bushings and may order to try as you recommended. Thanks for watching my friend!
The ONLY accurate conclusion you can make from this test is that the SAC does loaded 7 rounds with .001 runout and the Whidden did seven rounds with .005 runout. Making any conclusions about shooting performance of lower runout by comparing 2 - 7 Shot groups at 100yds is like walking into a bar in Sweden an concluding that all women are Blondes!
At least someone who knows something about statistics!
I'm probably going to open a hornets nest but if the concentricity is more consistent even though it's more wouldn't it be more consistent ammo?
Hi Daniel! You hit the nail on the head my friend. Now, with that said, there IS a limit as to where really bad concentricity affects the overall SD/ES/Group numbers...BUT, the really good shooters I've spoken with say it's somewhere above 0.010", so even with the Whidden I'm well below that threshold. I will say, once I got the SAC to work with the mandrel, my SD's fell to below 4.0 and ES's below 10, which is great for me. Thanks for watching my friend!
@The3GunGuy I'm wanting to see a comparison between the SAC and arbor dies like the LE Wilson
the SAC cost approx. 2.5 x more so it better be 2.5 x better
This comparison is irrelevant for such a small sample size. Shoot at least 23 more shots for both dies and then make the comparison. But thanks for the video!
Hi Danni! Totally agree, but just wanted an idea of the closeness if any. I've since loaded about 1,000 rounds with the SAC die and have to say that I'm very impressed with the 0.001 or less runout. BUT, to be honest, I think the Whidden that gave me ~0.002 - 0.003 of runout is just as good for PRS. Thanks for watching my friend!
There's no difference in performance of those dies. That being said, I use a Whidden die with a SAC bushing. 0.004" of runout difference is negligible.
Hi James! Yeah, for PRS I totally agree. The F-Class guys don't want any runout, but I don't shoot F-class, so I'm good with 0.002 - 0.003. Thanks for watching my friend!
I shoot F-class. There’s no difference in those dies. Even at 1000 yards, there’s so many other factors that 0.004” of runout difference won’t matter.
Seen like this, the value of SAC is not worth it, it is more than double for the same
Hi VPA! Don't get me wrong...Love the SAC die, but yeah, my Whidden is just as good for my PRS needs. Thanks for watching my friend!
To me I say spend the $300 for the custom Whidden die that’s actually designed for your chamber. That’s just me.
Hi Nebraska! Not a bad idea at all...I'm having a custom reamer machined right now and I may see if I can send the print to Whidden for a custom die...Would make a great video on the process. Great idea and thanks for watching as usual my friend!
That would be sweet! I’m pretty positive they can use the reamer print.
@@The4GunGuy Enjoyed your analysis...FYI I had a custom FL (Click Adjust) die made by Whidden - all they needed was 3 pices of fired brass and maybe a dummy round. Currently, reloading my 284 Shehane with that die I'm shooting 1.5 - 2" groups at 630yds with Berger 180gr bullets and single digit ES. I focus more on low ES powder charge than bullet runout. Love it!
@@chazt4863 I was looking at one of those and they look really nice...Maybe I'll order one and do a video on it. Thanks for watching my friend!
Eric Cortina says if his SDs are less than 6 or 7 he doesn't care
These SDs are less than 7 so who cares :)
I'm in that camp as well. SD's below 8 for me are good as long as the corresponding 100 yd group is sub-halfMOA. Thanks for watching my friend!
Wow I can’t see those results being anything more than statistical noise
I totally agree. Maybe for F-Class shooting, but not PRS. Thanks for watching my friend!
Thanks for sacrificing your hard earned money to prove I don’t need to buy the sac die
Hey Whipp! Yeah, in fact, when I added the mandrel, it screwed the whole thing up and I've wasted about 15 cases just trying to figure it out. Calling them today to straighten it out. Thanks for watching my friend! See you Saturday.
I’m curious to hear about your results of any time savings though during your reloading process by having the mandrel in the SAC die and not having to go through that extra step in sizing the cases.
@@rwhipple73 I bought the mandrel just to see if I'd like it...so far it's a no go cause I can't get the die to even size with it on there. My thought is that the tightness of the bushing in the sizing die and the mandrel is thinner than the neck wall, so I'm screwing it all up. I'll see when I do more numbers and talk to them today. Also, I "double" mandrel so I probably won't even use the "all in one" process.
@@The4GunGuy dang! That’s the whole reason I would even consider buying it to be honest….otherwise I’ll just stick with my classic Redding dies….not even using a bushing die myself at this point.
@@rwhipple73 Yeah, not impressed so far. Told Larry the story and his response was "And what's the difference between the two dies? THE COST!".