NATO jet stalks Putin minister before being chased off by SU-27
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- Опубликовано: 13 авг 2019
- NATO warplanes are chased by Russian jets after getting within touching distance of a Putin minister's plane over the Baltic Sea.
The dramatic scene unfolded during one of NATO's aerial patrols of the region, which have been stepped up in response to Russia's perceived military strengthening...
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www.thesun.co.uk/news/9716056...
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Love how the title says Putin minister and not just Russian minister...
putin is russia itself
LMFAAAAO
@@maxmustermann19203 in mother russia, country is prime minister
Putin the highest rank in the russian army
I can’t remember this
This is how countries troll each other.
From such a trolling the whole planet can die.
@@rerbitd7094 A war does not start by stuff like this. It happens all the time. I remember in Yugoslavia we shot down an American plane in the late 50s I think it was. No war was started by that.
@@abc-eq9so what if that time the president was trump
@@yongshen8 oof
It's true. Countries do it all the time. I wish western countries would do it a little more though. For every one time the west does this, Putin does it three or four times.
Imagine the adrenaline of the pilots.
I can imagine the Ace Combat Zero music playing in their heads
it's nothing. just childs play to them. no reason to get worried during routine escorting
Imagine being the guy that finger slips huh....
@@smythe7480 I promise you their fingers are NOT on any triggers … they have to be in constant communication with ops
@@jetv1471 sarcasm... believe me I'm sure they know if ANY signs of real aggression especially fired upon ww3 would start....
Y'all do realize this was from 2019, right? People acting as if it's today.
@HellBoi Putin has been invading places for years, they ain’t provoking nothing. Georgia, crimea, eastern Ukraine, now what’s happening now. Putin always the aggressor, power hungry and resources.
@HellBoi 😂
@HellBoiPutin is losing to the Ukrainian army guys a international clown
@HellBoi which part of it is in Russia? 🤡
@@Secretservice709 are u still going to say the same after russia just captured yet another stronghold pookrainian city😂 cope harder Ioser😂
I’m sure both side’s pilots get exited when they get to see each other’s jets.
Yea, ma ones bigger than your one. 😂
Its not theirs private jet it tax payers jet
@@earthisdoomed8811 everyone pays taxes, pilots too
@@ANIMshit which 1 is nato jet
@@logiic8835 the first one
Can we just admire how cool it is to be a fighter jet pilot
Can we sympathise with the Ukrainian people who have been trying to peacefully make a living and now face one of the most formidable armed forces for no particular reason except some politicians ego? The Ukraine and Russia had a non-aggression pact in place as Russia invaded Crimea, destroyed Ukrainian naval ships there and imprisoned or killed the crews. How can we tolerate this in 21st Century? Did political leaders not learn anything from 1940's?
@@undercrackers56 stfu he’s just saying that it would be cool to be a fighter pilot
Imagine you Crash It then you get chased down by the goverment until you somehow pay cause you just wasted 20 million dollars
@@bloomgaming6480 Pilots who eject, after investigation, if it is found that the plane was not intentionally crashed, continue to fly or are demoted to desk duty. Pilots cannot fly after 2 ejections because of the stress on their spine from the ejector seat.
@@undercrackers56 lol 2014 coup that was organized by eu and the us and now this hostile government has been armed by the west lol at the end of the day we will be dead if war starts lol.
Wasn't chased off, it avoided an intentional aggressive move.
Yeah no…
Yes
It was chased off bruh,what do you think the aggressive move was? Slamming into it?? 🤦🏾♂️
@@hermensonsantana3090 jets have to stay a certain distance apart to avoid jet wash and just over Unsaftey. You dont realize it bc its just a video but when those things are moving at like mach 3 getting even withing 15 feet of another jet is considered dangerous and aggressive. Its just international law and understanding that is a aggressive move.
@@mrappleslices8679 you made your point, no need to exaggerate. Very few aircraft are capable of flying anywhere near mach 3, certainly not Tu95's that Typhoons are sent to intercept
God that SU-27 is a gorgeous aircraft
When you tried hit on someone but her boyfriend comes along.
lmao
😂😂😂
In a real fight the Russian fighter would be destroyed as it it under the NATO's one. This NATO's pilot is far better as you can see from the video.
@@rafaelcuevas3209 ya Russian should have stayed on top
@@rafaelcuevas3209 this video doesn't show who is the better pilot. The Russian never tried to fight thus does not need to stay on top. He was just trying to get the NATO jet away and not to destroy it.
good cat and mouse game in the air
Wolf and jackal.
Stop watching Tom and Jerry
Imagine if it turned to a dog fight 😂
The US and Russia have been doing this since 1946, we've gotten quite good at stalking each other.
Thankfully not quite as serious as it used to be.
If you watch the video, you can recognize that the Russian performance is terrible. After his stupid maneuver his fighter remains bellow NATO's, in a real dogfight he would have no chance.
They are both wonderful in their own way... F-18 looks kinda technologically superior, but the Su-27 looks like a beast, stronger and more powerful... but it comes down to the pilot, support and luck, wether its a beyound visual range fight or a dogfight...
FYI, looks don't count for anything in air combat.
It comes down to training and technology. Most people seem to think the pilot is everything but that has never been the case even during ww I a good plane is still very important to succeed
@@thurbine2411 if that was true germany would have air superiority in ww2 due to having the best planes, but no because later on their pilots werent well trained
@@waldek7772 the Germans had the best plane if you look only on basic stats and not the logistics or numbers. The me 262 needed engine replacements very often and needed a lot of fuel which Germany lacked. It also needed cover when taking off and landing and very few were built. The bf 109 and fw 190 we’re far inferior to the p51 and p47 at the altitudes most fights we’re taking place at. Just like a few aces being very experienced when the whole fleet is very inexperienced isn’t effective having a few very good(if you have the logistics) planes isn’t as effective as having a huge air force of very good but not as good planes
@@waldek7772 Germany had the best aircraft and the best trained pilots. Look at all the Aces of WW2, the majority are German. They lost because they had so many opponents. If Germany and Russia were on the same side, the world would be different today, much more peaceful.
It terrifies me how people make this out to be a funny situation.
It’s like the people that don’t think about consequences before going to get a picture with a great wild Grizzly Bear in the wilderness!!!
probably because it's an 2019 video
Old Vid and Escort Swap.... Geez. Hold your Pants dry.
What's funny is those pilots probably live for this kinda stuff and have huge respect for eachother and see this as a game.
I dont think they do. The stakes are very high and you must always assume the enemy has bad intentions. One wrong move and its a fight to the death.
till joe biden/kamala harris or any number of other democrat politicians say "shoot that aircraft down, hes too close im scared"
@@Yarmox yeah very naive to call world politics a game 🤦🏻♂️
@@brock_kvrns8498 so I’m guessing you don’t know about the incident between the f4 phantoms and the tu95s huh. they were having fun
@@Yarmox sounds like someone who is talking out of their ass and has no idea about fighter pilot culture. many instances have shown mutual respect between pilots, even in times of war.
Hornet-Pilot: "Excuse me sir, you know a Carrier nearby i can land on?"
That’s a Spanish F-18, so he wouldn’t ask that.
@@jackzhang8677 Spanish fighter told the Russian : Si sigues haciendo el tonto te derribo. The Russian fighter ended up not knowing where the Spanish was while the EF-18 were flying above it.
@@rafaelcuevas3209 do we actually have a source for this dialogue?
@@jackzhang8677 I was just kidding like the first comment but there is an article with the oficial version of NATO's spokewoman. If you are interrsted I can add the link.
@@rafaelcuevas3209 I'm interested
I love how the hornet start climb and not divert to the left when rushed by the flanker
The NATO jet belongs to the Spanish Air Army based in Lithuania.
That one was based in Gran Canaria
@@pablom-f8762 I think that you're wrong. The 12th "Ala" is based in Torrejón de Ardoz (near Madrid) not in Gran Canaria, Gando Base.
He wanted to ask Putin himself for directions to Moscow.
Wasnt even putin learn to read raisen headed deformed creature.
he needed to drop his fuel tanks somewhere...
The F-18 wanted to behave like the policeman of the Baltic Sea.....until it sees the Su-27.
@MercenaryLYNXX 😂😂😂😂
The pilot escort said, " Wrong turn pls go backwards we've just gone out from Russia we're on our way to Syria".
*When you can’t afford fighter jets so you watch on YT*
Lol
Is this actually Kim Jong un?
Kim you crack me up every time man 🤣
@Dhanush T is it actually or had someone just made it
@@petercooper9319 Duh yeah?
That is a Spanish F/A-18
Honestly the pilots were just checking everything out on both sides😂
CNN report next day: Russian jet makes dangerous manouver against US jet.
CNN? probably not
Nah I think Fox News would do that
American jet: *kills thousands of innocents* nothing happens.
Not a NATO jet: *makes a evasive maneuver* eventually Will get killed for it
@@leonardospechtmartins4318 ye right like relax he was just using their Wifi
@@ro_pandablox9081 lol
Its crazy to think how far technology has advanced in the last 100 years, imagine show that jet to the wright brothers
Outlook this jet is like 50 years old. Its not new tech.
NaySay Network regardless of when this jet was made think about videos of the wright brothers getting a running start to get their plane of the ground and compare it to this
I strongly believe that humans technology is nothing compared to what other sentient beings in this huge Universe have. Needless to say in 10000 years it will be the same.
Moderna fighter jets would look like 👽 ships
@@rossenyankov3534 The question is whether there are other species that have managed to survive without destroying their own planet like we are doing
Amazing how the NATO pilot realised he was going lower so went up for the high ground. Well trained professionals
At that range maneuvering means almost nothing lmao. It's not ww2, fighters don't use cannon anymore
I think he did not want Any conflict
@@hughjass1976 wtf? at that range its gonna be a dof fight to see who can get lock first. Higher jet always has the advantage lmao cmon man
F-18 went up to avoid possible collision as he probably lost visual of the SU-27 because it was going under.
How do they allow them that close with shooting at them?? That’s seriously a threat.
Hornet: Do you have a minute to hear about our lord and savior capitalism?
Su: Begone !!!
The Russians are capitalist today. Could be that they were not hip on NATO's deliverance from national autonomy.
@Jordi El Niño Polla look at aeroflot they still use hammer and sickle
@@jamallabarge2665 you sure about that...so you the one that says that china is capitalist as well...
@Jordi El Niño Polla it isnt but it isnt capitalist as well
Underrated comment
The good ole "I'm not touching you" lmao.
Holy crap! My sister runs NATO.
Some people never really grow up. They just get bigger and more dangerous toys to play with. America needs to grow up and start acting like an adult.
@@jamesfarrar2724 An adult that has the largest navy on earth. We can play this game anywhere we want, in less than 200 years we've created and destroyed nations which molded us into the largest war machine this world has ever seen.
@@jamesfarrar2724 it's like comparing a bulldozer to a bunch of toy cars. Come on now lol.
@@jamesfarrar2724 You realize Russia does the same thing right?
"Hey pilot, wanna game?"
"Whoever gets a lock on first wins"
"Aight bet"
Is like one sweet ride pulling over to another sweet ride. ❤
Hornet: "ooo I like thicc girls!"
Flanker: "Find your own!"
Su-27 flanker
@Indian Streetshietters NATO uses code words to describe enemy air vehicles. Different types of aircraft have different starting letters for their code names; F for fighter, B for bomber, H for heli, and many others, some of which are not so simple (C for transport aircraft). Many of the modern Su series of fighters are codenamed Flanker. It has no correlation to the capabilities of the aircraft, just a name.
😆
@@c4lcul4tion wtf i was wondering why every damn jet starts with "F" and i'm not sure how I didn't think of this. It makes so much sense.
Does this mean A means "Attacker"? AC130, A10, etc.
@@3p1ks CORRECT!
Guys in the plane were basically like we are, impressed by these two beautiful machines. No "chase" happened just peaceful (as it should be) escort swap, hell pilots probably said to each other have a nice day mate
Exactly
This makes way more sense, thanks
Yeh but how can we scare the public with that story
please turn your life to Christ whilst you still can the rapture is about to happen anytime soon please repent of your sins And invite the holy spirit to make his home inside you it's not about religion its about a relationship "I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the farther but by me"
Yeah this is correct. Escort swaps happen all the time between nations. Also in a time without war.
I’m almost certain everybody was more excited than worried
The thought just occurred to me, dogfights wouldn't be as rare as people make them out to be, at least for the first start of said war, depending on if the war started off like this or not.
@@Gubers Right, but with planes getting more stealthy, you'll need to get closer to the enemy fighter in order to get a radar lock. It'll get to the point where they'll just be dogfighting instead of firing from a distance.
"mate your gas cap is open!"
See that black cross on the rudder of the hornet?
That's St. Andrew's cross, thats a Spanish bird right there
Thanks, I had been wondering if it was Canadian, good to see Spanish
@@RedFoxAce Free Kurdistan.
@@RedFoxAce Free Kurdistan, love from Greece.
@@RedFoxAce was also wondering if it was Canadian due to the false canopy. Nice to see the Spaniards with the false canopy paint too
Good pilot too, lifted the nose to let the su' go right under, great move!
Thats not a "chase off . Its an act of acknowledgement... .
An acknowledgement of if you don't move your ass, it's toast.😂
You know damn well both of those pilots are having a blast taunting each other. If they met face-to-face they would be good friends but instead we have leaders telling us to hate each other.
😂😂 Maybe the pilot wanted an autograph. Putins fans are everywhere.
Lol!
нет. Это прямая агрессия и неуважение.
😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣 Another classic!!!
lmao
I’m Mexican and I’m for Putin !!! No offense to anybody...
If this was a Swedish minister and a Danish plane. The title would be “ thanks mate I’m taking over”
Are you sure?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Not at all that would happen.
Wouldn’t be surprised for the media to try to conflate tensions. It’s their paycheck after all
Usch inte Danmark, de kan dra åt helvete och får isåfall gärna ta med Skåne!
I bet the 2 pilots were acting like when you see your bestfriend in class when they saw eachother😂😂
I love it how it says stalks. Lmao. Like it's something they didn't expected.
What a privilege being a fighter pilot
@@dmagz0121 I bet ur fun at parties
@@user-cn8un7qt4i what did he say? He deleted his comment 🤔
@@_XJEN_ he said "I bet u don't get invited to them" mfs lucky he deleted his comment
please turn your life to Christ whilst you still can the rapture is about to happen anytime soon please repent of your sins And invite the holy spirit to make his home inside you it's not about religion its about a relationship "I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the farther but by me"
it's also a lot of hard work to get there !
God damn that Sukhoi is one stunning aircraft.
The sexiest plane out there
@@lordemarsh6804 Laughs in F-22
@@lordemarsh6804 😂❤️🔥
@@therant311 ngl .. f22 while beautiful.. looks kinda cute compared to this sukhois menacing look..
Sukhoi is on the F22’s menu
Friendly encounter, pilots probably waved and admired each other’s planes
Both pilots enjoying that and going to tell about it the rest of their life
The thing is nobody knew that Putin was flying the SU27🤣🤣
Putin wasn't flying anything. One of his cronies was on a flight being escorted...🤣
Cringe
@@ebenezer7789 ratio
😂 ok, that's funny!
its wasn't Putin piloting it was Chuck Norris lol
That was me folks, took a wrong turn on my way home from Mc'D's!
😅😂🤣🤡🔫
figures, no indicators, pfffff
FSB wants to know your location*
Gotta love the youtube recommendation timing
Beautiful engineering v beautiful engineering and the boys on both sides appreciate it fully
"within touching distance of a Putin minister's plane"
Yes.... a Putin Minister
please turn your life to Christ whilst you still can the rapture is about to happen anytime soon please repent of your sins And invite the holy spirit to make his home inside you it's not about religion its about a relationship "I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the farther but by me"
@@jordytea2089 Hail Satan
Putin henchman
@@jordytea2089 hail satan
@@jordytea2089 hail satan
Man look at that Su 27 - piece of art written on a canvas way before it was brought to life! Absolute beauty...
SU 35
*MIG-15* XD
@@14thbkrctsecks MiG 3 actually
@@potatojuice5124YAK 7
@@14thbkrctsecks po 2
Both pilots: “impressive, very nice”
This comment is underrated 🤣. Reminds me of Borat
What a beautiful ballet of these birds.
wake me up when the US pilot inverts and takes a selfie with a Polaroid while giving the birdie.
Communicating...keeping up foreign relations 😂
"I was inverted"
Nobody is going to wake you up then. Cause that's a Spanish airforce F-18.... Look at the numbers on the nose section. We don't put numbers on our jets like that....
@@wwclay86 there's a decal of a soccer ball on the tail fin, it's Spanish alright
That damn Maverick and his hot dogging.
I know that this is a somewhat tense situation, but I love the back and forth of air intercepts. Not gonna lie hahaha
Scary how one trigger happy soldier could start ww3
Damn, it's like a high school fight. They intimidate each other but no one is brave enough to take the first shot, but in this case, the first shot fire will results in a large scale War.
I take the same formation on the motorway when I’m overtaking cars
In the 80's we buzzed a russian spy trawler in our FB-111 over international waters, just for a little looksey. As we came around for a 2nd slow fly over, the russians were waving a U S. Flag and waving at us. We waggled our wings, in a friendly wave. And went about our ,mission. Later upon landing our wing commander asked if we heard about a Air Force bomber playing over a Russian Trawler. Of course you admit to nothing. And the commander said fishing is not authorized using military equupment. As he walked away shaking his head.
Priceless response from the Wing Commander! 😂
please turn your life to Christ whilst you still can the rapture is about to happen anytime soon please repent of your sins And invite the holy spirit to make his home inside you it's not about religion its about a relationship "I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the farther but by me"
@@jordytea2089 HAIL SATAN!
@@KillerT-Bone no you didn't go there 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂 You the kinda guy to scream Satan to jahovas I love it 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@dannymarch2549 a little excessive use of emojis don’t you think
Su 27 be like- common man that's our minister!
Funny that the pilots have more respect for one another than either side's circus show politicians do.
I'd be waving at the Russian pilot. These guys don't want to kill each other.
NATO: Yeah putin weve been trying to reach you about your cars extended warranty
Finland is actually no NATO member
@@adamjohnson4975 no also in a dog fight the su 27 would get clapped
@@adamjohnson4975 well this dog fight would be a wvr fight the hornet is slightly better in the one circle and a two circle
@@thatguysix- just a tiny reminder. thats not battlefield 4. thats real live with rules. rules you have no clue about.
@@DerMessermann there arnet rules in a dog fight
It's amazing to see those Jets
Bro the guys in these jets probably giving eachother the Ghost stare like "alright which one of us is gonna kick off another war" 😭
Why is this being pushed on the news feeds right now? It happen 2 years ago 🤨
I love how he gave the friendly wing tip before heading off
Wasn't he just showing showing the other pilot his jet was armed?
@@DaVie556 nah its a curtisy or acknowledgement of an order. So Friendly wingtip
Exactly
@@alexandersupertramp151 can y’all give a time stamp of when this happened?
@@alexandersupertramp151 wing tip is at like 4 seconds. It's the jet tipping before the turn. He rolls a noticeable amount steadies and goes
That looks like an "Ejercito Del Aire" EF-18 folks!
Yes sir, yo también lo he visto
🇪🇦You win this time✈xD
Well that's just a cute little F-18 Hornet don't mean no harm none.. and also gave the minister a little wave..
Love how it says chased off when really the pilot just jinked left and pincers up completely breaking the Su27 ankles
Nato jet: Why do i hear boss music ???
SU-27 :
hilarious
its a su35
Actually, that Su-27 was in disadvantage the whole time.
@@lars9966 how can you tell?
@@Al-hb2wo idk what its called but the thing outside of the cockpit is moved to the right in the su 35. All su 27 have it in the middle. Also, the 35 is more thin than the 27
Helping escort Putin thats all, then abit of friendly air to air ballet
This aged well.
I wouldn't call it "chased off". More like "We ready".
the dude from NATO was like monkaW
and Putin was like monkaS
How I feel when I'm using my neighbors wifi and they shush me away with different password lolol..
Testing the response and timing?
He was just giving him a friendly shoo. After they landed he probably bought the guy a drink in the local pub.
This looks just like an ESCORT hand over.
But you had to write a shiny tittle to get views, didn't you? !
Ivanka
Damn click bait.
spot on - absolutely bang on bud.That 18 aint no match for the 27 either
👍👍👍
Why would an f-18 be escorting a Russian aircraft??? Use some logic, mate.
And why leave the minister plane
Most pilots love this stuff and do it on request most of the times...for decades pilots do stunts to each other with no aggression whatsoever
It's funny how social media, internet and mobile phone cameras have changed the entire world in ways far beyond our imagination
Russian minister : istapartaniya istapartaniya
His friend: What???? What are you saying?
Russian minister: there is a f***king hornet at right side
Hornet: "Excuse me sir, we've been trying to reach you about your plane's extended warra..."
please turn your life to Christ whilst you still can the rapture is about to happen anytime soon please repent of your sins And invite the holy spirit to make his home inside you it's not about religion its about a relationship "I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the farther but by me"
@@jordytea2089 hail satan?
@@jordytea2089 hail Satan
0:40 F-18: I’ll hit the brakes and he’ll fly right by....
The pilots :
You think he saw me wave ?
I always love the look of a Su-27. That thing is beautiful
@Phrnch Mdl if you cant tell the two apart, then you have an eyesight problem. i dont care who copied who, i still love the flanker
@Phrnch Mdl yea sure everything russian is an copy ok fanboy
@Phrnch Mdl thats funny considering the U.S copied jet technology from the U.K
And it also copied submarine technology for Germans XXI type.
@Phrnch Mdl lol su-27 was never based on f15 or its technology. Its the counterpart for it, every single weaponry is made to counter other weaponry.
Stop being biased and double standard.
@@vans2142 oh so that explains why we have better jets then the u.k. because we stole technology from them. Yes of course
Pilot 1: Isn't that's the wide guy?
Pilot 2:The walking wide guy?
Pilot 1: Yes
Pilot 2: oh yeah, that is him
Why have I seen this clip before? This is older than it should be
Sukhois are perhaps the most beautiful planes ever made.
One word: BLYAT!
I would love to fly one of those
I would love to fly both. Not at the same time, of course. 👨👨👨
Try DCS
Was waiting for an inverted bird foreign relations moment
When it’s next time Putin in a jet, push the button.
It’s really surprising how close quarters this was. I don’t think I remember hearing about this last year.
it was prolly a military escort and handoff. Wing sway from Hornet to Su was akin to a salute/gesture of professional respect. Also why the skipped part of the footage.
@@ahuman5749 I Doubt it... Russia doesn't fly the F18
@@TheFlyingZulu no but it's also normal for many states to escort the foreign goverment planes with their own airforce in their own airspace.
@@michelkohlenberger437 I can see that... but that SU-27's approach looks a bit aggressive don't you think?
@@TheFlyingZulu maybe… maybe not. All we can do is speculate anyway. But sure! I see your point aswell.
Chased off???? They moved over and gained altitude placing them at a better spot for attack.
Chased isnt a word i would use to describe this event.
The Su57 went so far that the f-18 could've came back for the kill
Legend has it, the Hornet pilot uttered "Say cheeseburger, Iwan!" into the airwaves
Can you imagine the response if it was Air Force 1 , and a Russian fighter came along side ? that would start WW3 .
Oh please! Not really America are not that stupid and besides Russia does this to America bombers and ships most of the time.
Trumpy loves Russia, so your concept is currently impossible.
@Sauce Money No, I used my own eyes, thanks.
Unfortunately nothing would happen.
This isn't the equivalent of Air Force 1, besides... That wouldn't happen. Russian fighters do this to American ships/planes all the time.
See how that tomcat went the sky he was getting a height advantage ....he was ready
What a beauty with Air Superiority.
The 18 keeps the energy advantage. I know it's all for show but it made me smile.
My man keeping the energy advantage
doesn't
matter when they're lock on missle in the mix that hornet was in a bad spot
@@joelbeaulieu882 thank you captain obvious.
Hence why I said it was all for show. Furthermore, in such a situation, one do you think he didn't know he was coming either from ground, air or rwr ..?
If I was in such a situation the chance to practice bfm against a likely opponent aircraft type would be more valuable.
Btw, the Academy is on line two for you.
@@joelbeaulieu882 The EF-18 locked the Su as you can see on the video. It is above and has full visivility while the Sukhoi doesn't know where the EF-18 is. In a real doghfight, the Russian is clearly dead.
@@rafaelcuevas3209 it’s an F-18 not an EF-18