“Hell is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. That begins here on earth. Just so Paradise dwells in the heart of man. It is in this life, in this bodily form, that we may first touch the Divine.” St. Maximovich
Indeed. All that matters is Strength trademark. And dependencies, loyalties, responsibilities, value produced, value taken.. Your other stats.. You are not supposed to 'believe in god', trademark. You are supposed to periodically borrow God to discipline yourself. That is all God trademark. cares about. trademark.
@@Oysters176 I am not totally sure what you mean, but this does make me imagine early Christian days when people give all different ideas and we’re not told to think like robots. Did you ever go on these RUclips videos where one person says praise Jesus and then there’s 500 comments basically just saying “amen”. So, even if I don’t understand your comment, you could at least possibly sparked a discussion. A lot of Christians say we have free will but at the same time do and say as told.
@@joecheffo5942 Some traditions are like studying mathematics or English, we all learn the same language, we all use base ten. The usefulness is how much you can outwit your opponents and boost your allies or maybe your goal is to simply discard the baggage of your ancestors, not repeat the mistakes of your parents. That is not what I am talking about through, what I said, are the objective measurements that you can take to study a person. If you know a person's biases, loyalties, responsibilities, you know half of the person, with room for deception or even outright lies of course. Yes.. praising Jesus is stupid.. It is wrong to have any idol. If you have an idol at all, it should be something like N1 (Infinity) not some 2000 year old man. I would much prefer a mythology that actually helps organize our complex world and information. Like Imagine an Authority that deals with Medicines & Poisons, and another that deals with Textiles, Dyes, & Soap, and yet another that deals with Food, and maybe Wood. With a systemic organization scheme, so you can mold different empathsis to. That would fit our global world. I do not like the idea that God is Love, I think he is Power. I do not beleive that god is omni-anything rather.. transcendent.
Considering no one back in the day could read or write ..... only the royals or 1%ers ....... someone managed to write all this commentary down and get it into publishing order. 40-70 years after his death. I cant remember when the tape recorder was invented but i'm pretty sure it isnt that old !
Exactly. But again, he was using metaphor. He was basically saying that if you keep sinning, you will experience bad things, both physically and mentally. He was verifying the Law that was actually meant to save people from physical/mental disease and early death, which IS what Gehenna IS.
@@silentghost751 Correct, same thing I am talking about. In Greek, the word that English translations render as "hell" is _Gehenna,_ which is the Valley of Hinnom. Christians shouldn't even be using the term "hell", but rather just "Death/Everlasting Death", because that's what it is (Rom 6:23, Malachi 4:1-3, Matt 10:28, etc.) And it literally doesn't matter whether Paul of Jesus even mention it AT ALL, because the OT is littered with references to the "Day of the Lord"
Afterlife?! You can't see Satan in "hell" because the Bible is clear he isn't there: 1 Peter 5:8 - "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." Lazarus of Bethany fell ill and died, and his body lay decaying in a tomb for four days until Jesus raised him (John 11:17). A whole chapter in John’s Gospel is devoted to the story of how Jesus brought him back from the dead. BUT THERE'S NOT A HINT NOR A WHISPER ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO LAZARUS' SOUL IN THAT FOUR-DAY INTERIM. The same thing is true of every person in Scripture who was ever brought back from the dead, beginning with the widow’s son whom Elijah raised in 1 Kings 17:17-24, and culminating with Eutychus, who was healed by Paul in Acts 20:9-12. NOT ONE BIBLICAL PERSON EVER HAD ANY RECORDED ACCOUNT OF HIS OR HER POSTMORTEM "EXPERIENCE". John 3:13 says, “NO ONE HAS ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN EXCEPT HE WHO DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN, THE SON OF MAN.” And John 1:18 says, “No one has seen God at any time.” Nor did the Hebrew prophets ever mention even the slightest possibility of suffering after death. Timothy 6:16 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, WHO ALONE IS IMMORTAL and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Psalm 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; IN THAT VERY DAY HIS THOUGHTS PERISH. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:2 It is the same for all: THERE IS A COMMON FATE FOR THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED, for the good and the bad, for the clean and the unclean, for the one who sacrifices and the one who does not. AS IT IS FOR THE GOOD, SO IT IS FOR THE SINNER; as it is for the one who makes a vow, so it is for the one who refuses to take a vow. Ecclesiastes 3:19 I said to myself, As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts. For THE FATES OF BOTH MEN AND BEASTS ARE THE SAME. AS ONE DIES, SO DIES THE OTHER- they all have the same breath. Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. ALL GO TO ONE PLACE; ALL COME FROM DUST, AND ALL RETURN TO DUST. Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for THERE IS NO ACTIVITY, PLANNING, KNOWLEDGE, OR WISDOM IN SHEOL where you are going. Ecclesiastes 7:2 It is better to enter a house of mourning than a house of feasting, SINCE DEATH IS THE END OF EVERY MAN, and the living should take this to heart.
So the videos here on youtube about "hell" being a fiery pit are, to put it politely, untrue? Some people even say that they saw Jesus in "hell", judging people. There are so many contradictions on youtube that one knows not who to believr.
@@johnheaton5058Hell is not eternal. It gets emptied of ”all the dead in it” in Rev 20:13… in verse 14 hell and 1st death are cast into the Lake of Fire, ”this is the second death”, meaning 1st death and hell are destroyed, so how could hell be eternal? And what would be the point when it’s empty, serving no purpose any longer? Nah, eternal hell is a heresy against God’s promise ”ye shall surely die”, and is actually Satan’s original lie, “you will not surely die”. The wages of sin is death. Death is the punishment, not eternal life (in torment or not). Death still means death.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s called “Gehenna” or “hell” in English. Whether historical or not, the Jesus character in the gospels does teach about it; he does call it a place to be feared, a place of punishment into which people are thrown AFTER death, a place of lasting fire and torment, and a place for the soul, not merely the body. How is that any better than modern fundamentalist Christian notions of hell?! It is a stupid concept either way. Mark 9.43-48: “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into Gehenna, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into Gehenna. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’” See also Matthew 5.29-30. Luke 12.4-5: 4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear him.” Matthew 5.22: “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.” Matthew 10.28: “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” So after reading these verses, what difference does it make to replace “hell” with “Gehenna” as I have done? None! It makes no difference. The teaching is still there. And look at Luke 16.22-26, which calls it Hades instead of Gehenna. And it is still called a place of torment, agony, fire, and separation from anything good. “22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ - - - It doesn’t matter whether it is called Hades, Hell, or Gehenna. It’s still a matter of ancient superstition regarding divine punishment of people after death. And whether there was a historical Jesus or not, the Jesus character in the gospels is presented as teaching this superstitious concept.
Interesting idea, however, as Dr. Ehrman pointed out in this video, the whole “after death” thing is about having one’s physical corpse thrown into the physical valley of Gehenna while those people were in its vicinity. This valley, mind you, is still around today and has been turned into a pretty park in Jerusalem. The reason why the gospels tell of this valley as such an awful place is because it was historically home to cultists who would perform ritual pedophilia and sacrifice. Not a place you wanted to be. As a studying linguist, you’re only somewhat right that it doesn’t matter what word we/the Bible uses-whether Gehenna, Hades, or Hell. Except only somewhat. Why it partially does matter is because the term “hell” in English has societal baggage attached to it-this baggage makes the average English speaker think of Gehenna as some non-physical, supernatural place where sinners are sent to. Which is not biblically supported. In fact, it’s not just not biblically supported, we have a clear line of textual evidence that the modern concept of Hell as it is now was invented by Europeans during the European Middle Ages. There is no such thing as Hell, only Heaven.
@@jeremias-serus Also Matthew 10.28 makes it clear that the concern is not simply about a body not being buried properly. It is about destruction of the soul. Again, these passages refer to torment after death. It clearly is not merely a concern about having one’s dead body thrown into a certain valley in Jerusalem.
I don't read this as "better" or "worse." I just see it as informative on how the modern christian concept of hell developed. How much of a dick Jesus might have been portrayed as is more a result of how far along the idea had developed by the time "Mark" penned his novel than anything literally true. You can see directly in the verses you list here that Gehenna is a place for your remains to be destroyed, not a place where you are tormented alive until the end of time. The fires and the worms that eat you do not die, but you certainly do. Matthew explicitly states that your soul would be destroyed, something that aligns perfectly with Jewish mythology and flies directly in the face of the Greek / Roman mythology that Luke is pushing. I've posted before that the pharisees were resurrectionists and conflicted with the idea of hell, and that Paul might not have believed in hell. I was very wrong on that, which I learned from looking into this. The pharisees were proponents of Gehenna, and Paul's message to the Roman empire matched well with the concept of Hades. They were not proponents of Sheol, the much tamer version. But a resurrectionist would NOT want his body to be cremated, because they believed in a physical resurrection of everyone at the end times. Rebuilding one's physical body from ashes would be at least difficult, probably painful, and perhaps impossible. So disposal of one's carcass in this matter WAS an eternal punishment, and not just for shame; it might preclude being able to partake in the resurrection at the end of time. I find it very interesting that the story of Lazarus, of which only Luke mentions (though there's good reason to believe that John's Lazarus is a direct response to this story), is set in Hades. Luke's job was to sell his gospel to the Romans, and he's using a Greek / Roman reference in this story that aligns with the Greek concept of the soul as well. In Luke's other references to Gehenna or Hades, he simply copies Matthew's usage, one of each. Mark's only reference to hell I can find is the one you already cited.
You're completely wrong. Jesus was very explicit about eternal punishment. Look at Mat. 25:46. It's not the terminology that's important, it's the reality of being separated from God - by choice - forever.
Nah, just as with the 1st bodily death, at “the second death”, Rev 20:14, the soul dies, perishes. So does hell and 1st death. Death means death, not living eternally… Rev 20:13-15 That’s why the saying goes ”be born once & die twice, or be born twice and die once” paraphrasing. God’s promise, ”ye shall surely die”… they don’t live forever (in torment or not). That’s the devil’s original lie: ”Ye shall not surely die”
Matthew 25: 46 says that the fate of the lost is "eternal punishment." That begs the question, what will that punishment be. The answer to that question is found in 2 Thessalonians 1: 9. The lost will cease to exist. ✴ [the unrepentant] _shall be punished with everlasting destruction…._ (2 Thessalonians 1: 9; KJV) * "olethros" -- ruin, doom, destruction, death.
From scientific point of view reality overcome sci-fiction. Fortunately/unfortunately to you the Bible does it too you just seems to don't have the enough experience/touch with the reality to acknowledge that but surely somewhere a long the line you will. Just like everyone else did.
Need a longer clip here because if that is all there is of this discussion, that is a very poor etymological breakdown. Need the etymology of the word hell as well and why that word was chosen to translate gehenna. This also needs a larger discussion on other sayings of Jesus, like: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Bart must be smarter than this... unless his last name is Simpson.
Also, the words translated as “eternity” & “eternal”, means “for all time”, the entirety of the aeon/aeons. Not “without end”, but “until the end” of time itself.
The idea of hell is a Greek influence. It comes from Gehenna which was a garbage burning dump outside of Jerusalem which had formerly been a location where Hebrew kings offered their children as sacrifices.
Hell is in part a state of mind, and I believe a consigned state as far as an altered reality where upon Universal laws, laws of God, whatever is the fact of it is, have been violated to such a degree so as to bring about a (karmic) result, believing you bring unto yourself a responding vibration to what you put forth. God's grace is often taken for granted, ignoring it as I have in my ego centric self absorbed recklessness, in part brought about by shame, guilt, regret and hopelessness initially brought about from formative year atrocities that are in part causative to make poor choices in the midst of an unaware mindset of the blessings in life and a poor understanding and lack of awareness to things I have been unable to see or ignore. I am struggling with what I insist is demonic attachment, have and still am suffering eerie phenomenon that is uncanny, difficult to put into words, experiencing horrific, otherworldly sensation that cause me to believe I am in an aspect of hell. I believe in Jesus, but difficult it is to accept the Christian paradigm as ot of it is rooted in this I am not worthy of God mentality that may be the case, but something within making me to connect to this as I don't want to feel that I am unworthy of anything in the midst of my self loathing, my existing trauma, and just wanting to feel good about myself, as I work through my issues with my therapist and attempt to hold on to a non judgmental higher power that can forgive me of my mistakes, my frailties, my bad choices, my sins, and my skewed predilections..I fear death because of fear I will be absorbed totally by the horrendous hell on earth experience I suffer now..trying to redirect my life by being mindful as to the now and making better choices as I forgive myself and find the truth as to if the Christian faith is the "only" way towards redemption, salvation and eyetnal reward be it heaven or a better reincarnated next life. There is a God and life after death as I see it as I struggle with right now and fighting to understand the truth nature of reality, and my lack of faith as to how to avoid a hell of my own making (?(
*"What Jesus Meant When He Talked About Hell"* This will surprise many people but Jesus did not talk about hell. He talked about Gehenna, true, but Gehenna is not hell.* The Bible nowhere threatens dead people with conscious torment (i.e. hell). * (See Jeremiah 7: 32-34.)
According to a saying of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, “the fire that the son of Adam kindles is but one part of the seventy parts of the fire of Jahannam.” He further said “(Hellfire) was favored by sixty nine parts.” In another saying he remarked that “on the day of Resurrection, the person who will receive the least punishment among the people of the Fire, wears two sleepers made from the Fire of Jahannam causing his brain to boil, just as a pot boils. He thinks that none in the Fire is receiving a more severe torment than he, when in fact he is receiving the least torment.” The Quran is full of references to Jahannam, which is the Arabic word for hell. The Quran mentions that those who go to Jannah, heaven are the truly successful ones while those who go to Jahannam, hell are the real losers. Both success and failure in this life is temporary and therefore it is neither success nor failure. It is mere deception.
No. Gehenna was the city dump. In Roman times if you died in Roman custody, and a lot of people did, your body would be cast onto the dump, and burned with the garbage. Kind of a Wes Craven nightmare of half burnt bodies, bones with the acrid smells of burning flesh and hair. This is what Jesus said Hell is like.
@@yallimsorry5983 Wait! There's more! Jesus is actually quoting from the book of Isaiah. The important point here is the statement where the worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. As in other passages this refers to a permanent state. Eternally.
“It’s never anything Jesus Himself talked about…” - Bart Ehrman “Condemnation shall come because some preferred darkness rather than light…” - Jesus Christ
@@scottblankenship1836 it could mean annihilation which what Erman thinks and was apparently the main Jewish view at the time. Jews also had some idea of purgatory which Catholics picked up on so it could be that I guess. It’s not cold purgatory though it’s more like purification. But annihilation is what Erman says. By the way, which gospel does he say that? Peace
Hello Joe - Forgive the delayed reply. I sure appreciated the civility of yours. The ancient Hebrew texts states Sheol is the resting place I think you’re speaking of. A temporary resting place after death and before judgment. It could be comparable to purgatory perhaps. It very well may be what the RCC based such doctrine upon. Most outside of the RCC consider it herecy but none the less. I think it’s important to note that the Jewish religion denies Jesus as the Christ thus they are still waiting for that. The souls that rest in Sheol awaiting for God to raise them to judgement and the afterlife. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah and God incarnate. The time is at hand. Sure, anyone can claim and believe that condemnation actually means annihilation but that would conflict greatly with what Christianity has proclaimed for over 2K years now. “God does not want a single soul to parish” strongly suggests a Christian tennent that God would not destroy what He loves. The proclamation is that we will all live for eternity in the presence of God. Heaven and Hell are not a physical location as much as a state of one’s soul. Those who see God’s light for what it is (love, forgiveness, regeneration) will experience eternal bliss if you will, communing for eternity in God’s love together. Those who do not will see that light as eternal torment for “some love darkness rather than light”. The verse I mentioned is John 3:19 - 3:21 Though it must be taken in context. It follows perhaps the most famous verse John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Sounds like a great place to stop reading which is kinda what the solofide crowd does, but that would be a mistake imho. Earlier in John 3 Nicodemus asks Christ how to inherit the kingdom of God (Heaven). Jesus answered that we must be reborn. He did not mean physically as pointed out to Nicodemus. It is a spiritual rebirth He was speaking of. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. In John 3:18 Jesus specifies that believers can avoid condemnation but those who do not believe are already condemned. Well, we are all still here so in this case condemnation cannot be annihilation. Condemnation is a state of one’s soul. Eternal condemnation is not an annihilation but eternal torment known as Hell. “Hell is not a place, no, but a state of one’s soul. That begins here on earth. Just so paradise dwells in the heart of man. It is in this life, in this bodily form, that we may first touch the Divine” St. John Maximovich. Jesus spoke about repentance, faith, God’s love, and sin. If there is no hell there would be no need for repentance. No need for such a rebirth. There would be no need for Him to come dwell with us. No condemnation would mean there is no need for a savior, right? John 3 being just one verse mentioned. There are others; In Matthew 25, Jesus tells of a time when people will be separated into two groups, one entering into his presence, the other banished to “eternal fire.” He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43)where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19-31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30). So, on one hand Jesus may not have used the word ‘hell’. On the other hand make no mistake He believed in it and warned us of it. Lastly, and forgive my lengthy reply, I strongly encourage you to look up ‘Is Hell Real by Stephan Freeman’. Should be easy enough to find in your search bar. It is a brief one page read or so but may offer you a more accurate depiction (according to Christianity anyway) of heaven and hell than you are aware of. It should tie all this together. It does for me anyway.
@@scottblankenship1836 he says fear him who woyod kill both body and soul in hell, so soull can be destroyed. He doesnt want them to perish firs perfectly. Eternal torment is too disgusting and incompatible with any sense of love justice or mercy, I would say literally the opposite. Annihilation fits and makes sense.
Jesus was warning the Jews that judgment would come upon them for rejecting him. And 40 years later, Jerusalem was destroyed, the temple was decimated, and many Jews were exiled. And for the past 2, 000 years, Jews have suffered a lot while Gentiles received the Gospel and did better in a lot of ways.
In the Gospel of Bartholomew, the Savior takes Bartholomew down to Tartarus to look at Beliar (Satan). The Savior tells Bartholomew to "trample with your feet on his neck, and he will tell you his work, what it is, and how he deceives men." Bartholomew does as the Savior says and asks Beliar "Do you do these things by yourself ? ... , and Satan said: If I were able to do these things by myself, I would have destroyed the whole world in three days: but neither I nor any of the six hundred do these things. For we have other swift ministers whom we command, and we furnish them with many hooks and send them forth to hunt, and they catch for us souls of men, enticing them with sweetness of divers baits, that is by drunkenness and laughter, by backbiting, hypocrisy, pleasures, fornication"
“Hell is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. That begins here on earth. Just so Paradise dwells in the heart of man. It is in this life, in this bodily form, that we may first touch the Divine.” St. Maximovich
Beautiful!
A Saint of Eastern Orthodoxy!
To believe that anyone who is of another faith goes to hell because of it is bigotry.
Indeed. All that matters is Strength trademark. And dependencies, loyalties, responsibilities, value produced, value taken.. Your other stats.. You are not supposed to 'believe in god', trademark. You are supposed to periodically borrow God to discipline yourself. That is all God trademark. cares about. trademark.
@@Oysters176 I am not totally sure what you mean, but this does make me imagine early Christian days when people give all different ideas and we’re not told to think like robots.
Did you ever go on these RUclips videos where one person says praise Jesus and then there’s 500 comments basically just saying “amen”.
So, even if I don’t understand your comment, you could at least possibly sparked a discussion.
A lot of Christians say we have free will but at the same time do and say as told.
@@joecheffo5942 Some traditions are like studying mathematics or English, we all learn the same language, we all use base ten. The usefulness is how much you can outwit your opponents and boost your allies or maybe your goal is to simply discard the baggage of your ancestors, not repeat the mistakes of your parents. That is not what I am talking about through, what I said, are the objective measurements that you can take to study a person. If you know a person's biases, loyalties, responsibilities, you know half of the person, with room for deception or even outright lies of course. Yes.. praising Jesus is stupid.. It is wrong to have any idol. If you have an idol at all, it should be something like N1 (Infinity) not some 2000 year old man. I would much prefer a mythology that actually helps organize our complex world and information. Like Imagine an Authority that deals with Medicines & Poisons, and another that deals with Textiles, Dyes, & Soap, and yet another that deals with Food, and maybe Wood. With a systemic organization scheme, so you can mold different empathsis to. That would fit our global world. I do not like the idea that God is Love, I think he is Power. I do not beleive that god is omni-anything rather.. transcendent.
Considering no one back in the day could read or write ..... only the royals or 1%ers ....... someone managed to write all this commentary down and get it into publishing order. 40-70 years after his death.
I cant remember when the tape recorder was invented but i'm pretty sure it isnt that old !
Only an idiot would think that...or a fundamentalist.
Exactly. But again, he was using metaphor. He was basically saying that if you keep sinning, you will experience bad things, both physically and mentally. He was verifying the Law that was actually meant to save people from physical/mental disease and early death, which IS what Gehenna IS.
It should be titled WHAT PAUL said about hell.. or 'The man who wrote the bible and never met שוע)'
Met what? Also Jesus said it
What? Jesus used the phrase transliterated as "Gehenna"
@@silentghost751 Yeshua, it's Jesus' name in Hebrew
@@isaiahreno He mentioned Hell too
@@silentghost751 Correct, same thing I am talking about. In Greek, the word that English translations render as "hell" is _Gehenna,_ which is the Valley of Hinnom. Christians shouldn't even be using the term "hell", but rather just "Death/Everlasting Death", because that's what it is (Rom 6:23, Malachi 4:1-3, Matt 10:28, etc.)
And it literally doesn't matter whether Paul of Jesus even mention it AT ALL, because the OT is littered with references to the "Day of the Lord"
Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus does depict an after life of some form of torment .
Yes, does he ever mention this?
@@JohnnyWalkerBlack142 I don't understand the question
Afterlife?!
You can't see Satan in "hell" because the Bible is clear he isn't there: 1 Peter 5:8 - "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."
Lazarus of Bethany fell ill and died, and his body lay decaying in a tomb for four days until Jesus raised him (John 11:17). A whole chapter in John’s Gospel is devoted to the story of how Jesus brought him back from the dead. BUT THERE'S NOT A HINT NOR A WHISPER ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO LAZARUS' SOUL IN THAT FOUR-DAY INTERIM.
The same thing is true of every person in Scripture who was ever brought back from the dead, beginning with the widow’s son whom Elijah raised in 1 Kings 17:17-24, and culminating with Eutychus, who was healed by Paul in Acts 20:9-12. NOT ONE BIBLICAL PERSON EVER HAD ANY RECORDED ACCOUNT OF HIS OR HER POSTMORTEM "EXPERIENCE".
John 3:13 says, “NO ONE HAS ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN EXCEPT HE WHO DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN, THE SON OF MAN.” And John 1:18 says, “No one has seen God at any time.”
Nor did the Hebrew prophets ever mention even the slightest possibility of suffering after death.
Timothy 6:16
God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, WHO ALONE IS IMMORTAL and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever.
Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; IN THAT VERY DAY HIS THOUGHTS PERISH.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:2
It is the same for all: THERE IS A COMMON FATE FOR THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED, for the good and the bad, for the clean and the unclean, for the one who sacrifices and the one who does not. AS IT IS FOR THE GOOD, SO IT IS FOR THE SINNER; as it is for the one who makes a vow, so it is for the one who refuses to take a vow.
Ecclesiastes 3:19
I said to myself, As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that they are but beasts. For THE FATES OF BOTH MEN AND BEASTS ARE THE SAME. AS ONE DIES, SO DIES THE OTHER- they all have the same breath. Man has no advantage over the animals, since
everything is futile. ALL GO TO ONE PLACE; ALL COME FROM DUST, AND ALL RETURN TO DUST.
Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for THERE IS NO ACTIVITY, PLANNING, KNOWLEDGE, OR WISDOM IN SHEOL where you are going.
Ecclesiastes 7:2
It is better to enter a house of mourning than a house of feasting, SINCE DEATH IS THE END OF EVERY MAN, and the living should take this to heart.
The problem is Jesus didn't tell this parable.
@@johnpetkos5686
Says who ?
I love the idea of spending eternity in the bosom of Abraham.
Much better than bring tormented by a flame.
(Luke 16:24)
Nutcheck!
The 'bosom of Abraham' was no longer needed after the Resurrection...
@@johnheaton5058
I don't remember reading that in the book.
So the videos here on youtube about "hell" being a fiery pit are, to put it politely, untrue? Some people even say that they saw Jesus in "hell", judging people. There are so many contradictions on youtube that one knows not who to believr.
Jesus was absolutely clear about the nature of hell...it's not just a state but eternal.
@@johnheaton5058Hell is not eternal. It gets emptied of ”all the dead in it” in Rev 20:13… in verse 14 hell and 1st death are cast into the Lake of Fire, ”this is the second death”, meaning 1st death and hell are destroyed, so how could hell be eternal? And what would be the point when it’s empty, serving no purpose any longer?
Nah, eternal hell is a heresy against God’s promise ”ye shall surely die”, and is actually Satan’s original lie, “you will not surely die”. The wages of sin is death. Death is the punishment, not eternal life (in torment or not). Death still means death.
People are confused, and there’s the heretical teaching of eternal hell. Just read Rev 20:13-15, it’s crystal clear
Exactly.
Some people say one thing, but others says another thing.
I don’t know what to think and I'm honestly afraid.
He said,
You don't believe me,
You go to hell....
... What the GOD....
It doesn’t matter whether it’s called “Gehenna” or “hell” in English. Whether historical or not, the Jesus character in the gospels does teach about it; he does call it a place to be feared, a place of punishment into which people are thrown AFTER death, a place of lasting fire and torment, and a place for the soul, not merely the body.
How is that any better than modern fundamentalist Christian notions of hell?!
It is a stupid concept either way.
Mark 9.43-48: “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into Gehenna, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into Gehenna. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’”
See also Matthew 5.29-30.
Luke 12.4-5: 4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear him.”
Matthew 5.22: “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.”
Matthew 10.28: “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”
So after reading these verses, what difference does it make to replace “hell” with “Gehenna” as I have done?
None! It makes no difference. The teaching is still there.
And look at Luke 16.22-26, which calls it Hades instead of Gehenna. And it is still called a place of torment, agony, fire, and separation from anything good.
“22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
- - -
It doesn’t matter whether it is called Hades, Hell, or Gehenna. It’s still a matter of ancient superstition regarding divine punishment of people after death. And whether there was a historical Jesus or not, the Jesus character in the gospels is presented as teaching this superstitious concept.
Interesting idea, however, as Dr. Ehrman pointed out in this video, the whole “after death” thing is about having one’s physical corpse thrown into the physical valley of Gehenna while those people were in its vicinity. This valley, mind you, is still around today and has been turned into a pretty park in Jerusalem. The reason why the gospels tell of this valley as such an awful place is because it was historically home to cultists who would perform ritual pedophilia and sacrifice. Not a place you wanted to be. As a studying linguist, you’re only somewhat right that it doesn’t matter what word we/the Bible uses-whether Gehenna, Hades, or Hell. Except only somewhat. Why it partially does matter is because the term “hell” in English has societal baggage attached to it-this baggage makes the average English speaker think of Gehenna as some non-physical, supernatural place where sinners are sent to. Which is not biblically supported. In fact, it’s not just not biblically supported, we have a clear line of textual evidence that the modern concept of Hell as it is now was invented by Europeans during the European Middle Ages. There is no such thing as Hell, only Heaven.
@@jeremias-serus Did you read the Luke 16 passage I quoted?
@@jeremias-serus Also Matthew 10.28 makes it clear that the concern is not simply about a body not being buried properly.
It is about destruction of the soul.
Again, these passages refer to torment after death. It clearly is not merely a concern about having one’s dead body thrown into a certain valley in Jerusalem.
I don't read this as "better" or "worse." I just see it as informative on how the modern christian concept of hell developed. How much of a dick Jesus might have been portrayed as is more a result of how far along the idea had developed by the time "Mark" penned his novel than anything literally true.
You can see directly in the verses you list here that Gehenna is a place for your remains to be destroyed, not a place where you are tormented alive until the end of time. The fires and the worms that eat you do not die, but you certainly do. Matthew explicitly states that your soul would be destroyed, something that aligns perfectly with Jewish mythology and flies directly in the face of the Greek / Roman mythology that Luke is pushing.
I've posted before that the pharisees were resurrectionists and conflicted with the idea of hell, and that Paul might not have believed in hell. I was very wrong on that, which I learned from looking into this. The pharisees were proponents of Gehenna, and Paul's message to the Roman empire matched well with the concept of Hades. They were not proponents of Sheol, the much tamer version. But a resurrectionist would NOT want his body to be cremated, because they believed in a physical resurrection of everyone at the end times. Rebuilding one's physical body from ashes would be at least difficult, probably painful, and perhaps impossible. So disposal of one's carcass in this matter WAS an eternal punishment, and not just for shame; it might preclude being able to partake in the resurrection at the end of time.
I find it very interesting that the story of Lazarus, of which only Luke mentions (though there's good reason to believe that John's Lazarus is a direct response to this story), is set in Hades. Luke's job was to sell his gospel to the Romans, and he's using a Greek / Roman reference in this story that aligns with the Greek concept of the soul as well. In Luke's other references to Gehenna or Hades, he simply copies Matthew's usage, one of each. Mark's only reference to hell I can find is the one you already cited.
Cry about it
“Hell” spelled backwards is “lleh” and pronounced “lay”
You're completely wrong. Jesus was very explicit about eternal punishment. Look at Mat. 25:46. It's not the terminology that's important, it's the reality of being separated from God - by choice - forever.
Nah, just as with the 1st bodily death, at “the second death”, Rev 20:14, the soul dies, perishes. So does hell and 1st death. Death means death, not living eternally…
Rev 20:13-15
That’s why the saying goes ”be born once & die twice, or be born twice and die once” paraphrasing.
God’s promise, ”ye shall surely die”… they don’t live forever (in torment or not). That’s the devil’s original lie: ”Ye shall not surely die”
@@maxhult830 Amen!
Matthew 25: 46 says that the fate of the lost is "eternal punishment." That begs the question, what will that punishment be. The answer to that question is found in 2 Thessalonians 1: 9. The lost will cease to exist. ✴ [the unrepentant] _shall be punished with everlasting destruction…._ (2 Thessalonians 1: 9; KJV)
* "olethros" -- ruin, doom, destruction, death.
Before the authors of Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, there was this.. a best selling FICTION no doubt.
From scientific point of view reality overcome sci-fiction. Fortunately/unfortunately to you the Bible does it too you just seems to don't have the enough experience/touch with the reality to acknowledge that but surely somewhere a long the line you will. Just like everyone else did.
Need a longer clip here because if that is all there is of this discussion, that is a very poor etymological breakdown. Need the etymology of the word hell as well and why that word was chosen to translate gehenna. This also needs a larger discussion on other sayings of Jesus, like: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Bart must be smarter than this... unless his last name is Simpson.
Also, the words translated as “eternity” & “eternal”, means “for all time”, the entirety of the aeon/aeons. Not “without end”, but “until the end” of time itself.
He was on about here the world occupied by humans if he spoke about it at all because his teachings defo been twisted
Maybe Gehenna is a hebrew term Jesus was using ...jews believe Gehenum is Hell and Muslim call Hell Jahanam.
Hell is other people.
Sartre...
So where is hell? Besides Hell Michigan of course.
How about downtown L.A.?
In another dimension..
The idea of hell is a Greek influence. It comes from Gehenna which was a garbage burning dump outside of Jerusalem which had formerly been a location where Hebrew kings offered their children as sacrifices.
That’s cool Ron! So where is Hell now? Springfield tire fire?
Hell is in part a state of mind, and I believe a consigned state as far as an altered reality where upon Universal laws, laws of God, whatever is the fact of it is, have been violated to such a degree so as to bring about a (karmic) result, believing you bring unto yourself a responding vibration to what you put forth. God's grace is often taken for granted, ignoring it as I have in my ego centric self absorbed recklessness, in part brought about by shame, guilt, regret and hopelessness initially brought about from formative year atrocities that are in part causative to make poor choices in the midst of an unaware mindset of the blessings in life and a poor understanding and lack of awareness to things I have been unable to see or ignore. I am struggling with what I insist is demonic attachment, have and still am suffering eerie phenomenon that is uncanny, difficult to put into words, experiencing horrific, otherworldly sensation that cause me to believe I am in an aspect of hell. I believe in Jesus, but difficult it is to accept the Christian paradigm as ot of it is rooted in this I am not worthy of God mentality that may be the case, but something within making me to connect to this as I don't want to feel that I am unworthy of anything in the midst of my self loathing, my existing trauma, and just wanting to feel good about myself, as I work through my issues with my therapist and attempt to hold on to a non judgmental higher power that can forgive me of my mistakes, my frailties, my bad choices, my sins, and my skewed predilections..I fear death because of fear I will be absorbed totally by the horrendous hell on earth experience I suffer now..trying to redirect my life by being mindful as to the now and making better choices as I forgive myself and find the truth as to if the Christian faith is the "only" way towards redemption, salvation and eyetnal reward be it heaven or a better reincarnated next life. There is a God and life after death as I see it as I struggle with right now and fighting to understand the truth nature of reality, and my lack of faith as to how to avoid a hell of my own making (?(
*"What Jesus Meant When He Talked About Hell"* This will surprise many people but Jesus did not talk about hell. He talked about Gehenna, true, but Gehenna is not hell.* The Bible nowhere threatens dead people with conscious torment (i.e. hell).
* (See Jeremiah 7: 32-34.)
Dante’s Inferno.
It's a comedy.
Is a work of literature, not biblical text.
@@DrazenPerkovic-p8j least funny comedy ever tho
Lake of fire
According to a saying of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, “the fire that the son of Adam kindles is but one part of the seventy parts of the fire of Jahannam.” He further said “(Hellfire) was favored by sixty nine parts.”
In another saying he remarked that “on the day of Resurrection, the person who will receive the least punishment among the people of the Fire, wears two sleepers made from the Fire of Jahannam causing his brain to boil, just as a pot boils. He thinks that none in the Fire is receiving a more severe torment than he, when in fact he is receiving the least torment.”
The Quran is full of references to Jahannam, which is the Arabic word for hell. The Quran mentions that those who go to Jannah, heaven are the truly successful ones while those who go to Jahannam, hell are the real losers.
Both success and failure in this life is temporary and therefore it is neither success nor failure. It is mere deception.
and would you boil the brains of those you love and call youself "loving"
Washington post. Hmmm. Alarm bells are ringing
No. Gehenna was the city dump. In Roman times if you died in Roman custody, and a lot of people did, your body would be cast onto the dump, and burned with the garbage. Kind of a Wes Craven nightmare of half burnt bodies, bones with the acrid smells of burning flesh and hair. This is what Jesus said Hell is like.
I wonder who knows better, some RUclips commentators or someone who’s read the manuscript in it’s original language lol
@@yallimsorry5983 Wait! There's more! Jesus is actually quoting from the book of Isaiah. The important point here is the statement where the worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. As in other passages this refers to a permanent state. Eternally.
“It’s never anything Jesus Himself talked about…” - Bart Ehrman
“Condemnation shall come because some preferred darkness rather than light…”
- Jesus Christ
Exactly, never mentions Hell. Nice to prove his point further.
joecheffo5942 - What do you think condemnation means my friend?
@@scottblankenship1836 it could mean annihilation which what Erman thinks and was apparently the main Jewish view at the time.
Jews also had some idea of purgatory which Catholics picked up on so it could be that I guess. It’s not cold purgatory though it’s more like purification.
But annihilation is what Erman says.
By the way, which gospel does he say that?
Peace
Hello Joe - Forgive the delayed reply. I sure appreciated the civility of yours. The ancient Hebrew texts states Sheol is the resting place I think you’re speaking of. A temporary resting place after death and before judgment. It could be comparable to purgatory perhaps. It very well may be what the RCC based such doctrine upon. Most outside of the RCC consider it herecy but none the less. I think it’s important to note that the Jewish religion denies Jesus as the Christ thus they are still waiting for that. The souls that rest in Sheol awaiting for God to raise them to judgement and the afterlife. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah and God incarnate. The time is at hand.
Sure, anyone can claim and believe that condemnation actually means annihilation but that would conflict greatly with what Christianity has proclaimed for over 2K years now. “God does not want a single soul to parish” strongly suggests a Christian tennent that God would not destroy what He loves. The proclamation is that we will all live for eternity in the presence of God. Heaven and Hell are not a physical location as much as a state of one’s soul. Those who see God’s light for what it is (love, forgiveness, regeneration) will experience eternal bliss if you will, communing for eternity in God’s love together. Those who do not will see that light as eternal torment for “some love darkness rather than light”.
The verse I mentioned is John 3:19 - 3:21
Though it must be taken in context. It follows perhaps the most famous verse John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Sounds like a great place to stop reading which is kinda what the solofide crowd does, but that would be a mistake imho. Earlier in John 3 Nicodemus asks Christ how to inherit the kingdom of God (Heaven). Jesus answered that we must be reborn. He did not mean physically as pointed out to Nicodemus. It is a spiritual rebirth He was speaking of. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. In John 3:18 Jesus specifies that believers can avoid condemnation but those who do not believe are already condemned. Well, we are all still here so in this case condemnation cannot be annihilation. Condemnation is a state of one’s soul. Eternal condemnation is not an annihilation but eternal torment known as Hell.
“Hell is not a place, no, but a state of one’s soul. That begins here on earth. Just so paradise dwells in the heart of man. It is in this life, in this bodily form, that we may first touch the Divine” St. John Maximovich.
Jesus spoke about repentance, faith, God’s love, and sin. If there is no hell there would be no need for repentance. No need for such a rebirth. There would be no need for Him to come dwell with us. No condemnation would mean there is no need for a savior, right?
John 3 being just one verse mentioned. There are others; In Matthew 25, Jesus tells of a time when people will be separated into two groups, one entering into his presence, the other banished to “eternal fire.” He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43)where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19-31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30). So, on one hand Jesus may not have used the word ‘hell’. On the other hand make no mistake He believed in it and warned us of it.
Lastly, and forgive my lengthy reply, I strongly encourage you to look up ‘Is Hell Real by Stephan Freeman’. Should be easy enough to find in your search bar. It is a brief one page read or so but may offer you a more accurate depiction (according to Christianity anyway) of heaven and hell than you are aware of. It should tie all this together. It does for me anyway.
@@scottblankenship1836 he says fear him who woyod kill both body and soul in hell, so soull can be destroyed. He doesnt want them to perish firs perfectly.
Eternal torment is too disgusting and incompatible with any sense of love justice or mercy, I would say literally the opposite. Annihilation fits and makes sense.
Jesus was warning the Jews that judgment would come upon them for rejecting him. And 40 years later, Jerusalem was destroyed, the temple was decimated, and many Jews were exiled. And for the past 2, 000 years, Jews have suffered a lot while Gentiles received the Gospel and did better in a lot of ways.
Do you believe Jesus us the only way to God, are you a Christian?
In the Gospel of Bartholomew, the Savior takes Bartholomew down to Tartarus to look at Beliar (Satan). The Savior tells Bartholomew to "trample with your feet on his neck, and he will tell you his work, what it is, and how he deceives men." Bartholomew does as the Savior says and asks Beliar "Do you do these things by yourself ? ... , and Satan said: If I were able to do these things by myself, I would have destroyed the whole world in three days: but neither I nor any of the six hundred do these things. For we have other swift ministers whom we command, and we furnish them with many hooks and send them forth to hunt, and they catch for us souls of men, enticing them with sweetness of divers baits, that is by drunkenness and laughter, by backbiting, hypocrisy, pleasures, fornication"
Hell is real. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
I guess he will know when gets there
Dumb man
Or no one will know. OR the people that think they are NOT going there ARE going there for their arrogance and lack of charity.
Lake of fire
Hell is not the Lake of Fire, they are two distinctly separate things, Rev 20:13-15
@@maxhult830 i agree
Nirvana did a great cover of it.