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Exploring Early Christian Narratives of Heaven & Hell w/ Dr. Bart Ehrman
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- Опубликовано: 12 авг 2024
- A conversation with Dr. Bart Ehrman about his new book "Journeys to Heaven and Hell: Tours of the Afterlife in Early Christian Tradition," which is published by Yale University Press:
yalebooks.yale.edu/book/97803...
Dr. Bart Ehrman contextualizes early Christian narratives of heaven and hell within the broader intellectual and cultural worlds from which they emerged. He examines how fundamental social experiences of the early Christian communities molded the conceptions of the afterlife that eventuated into the accepted doctrines of heaven, hell, and purgatory.
Dr. Bart Ehrman is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, where he has taught thousands of students and won numerous awards.
Bart's work has been featured in The New York Times, the Washington Post, the Times Literary Supplement, the New Yorker, Time, and Newsweek; he has appeared on National Geographic, CNN, the BBC, NBC's Dateline, the Discovery Channel, Fresh Air with Terry Gross, the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, the Sam Harris Podcast, and many other top media outlets. Subscribe to his blog here:
ehrmanblog.org/
Outline of discussion:
00:00 Intro
00:32 Genre of Guided Tour’s Heaven & Hell
02:02 Apocalypse of Peter
03:38 Realms of the Damned
04:39 Authorship of “Apocalypse of Peter”
06:13 How to read ancient literature (and understand context)
07:30 Concepts of Hell & Gehenna
09:22 Importance of reading academic scholarship on the Bible
11:06 Ancient Hebrew ideas about the body & soul (and annihilation after death)
15:50 Where does Jesus go after he died on the cross?
15:59 Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, Hades
17:20 Harrowing of Hell
18:41 The Gospel of Nicodemus
19:22 Annihilation & Kingdom of Heaven on Earth
22:29 Universalism: A Sovereign God will Save All
24:01 Ancient texts
24:48 The Apocalypse of Paul, The Acts of Thomas, The Gospel of Nicodemus,
26:00 Purgatory History & Origins
28:07 Abraham’s Bosom: Rich Man & Lazarus
30:21 Where did ancient people think heaven and hell were?
32:11 Tower of Babel
33:00 How to be critical readers of the Bible
35:42 Academic study tools and resources for Biblical interpretation
* * * * * * * * * *
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Imagine sending everyone to hell for doing something wrong when you didn’t know what wrong meant.
?
Thats why God in Islam explains he does not punish anyone unless he sends them clear warning.
That's a cop-out. Everyone has a conscience. If that doesn't work in you. Life will teach you.
Thank you, Dr Ehrman. You are very easy to follow. There is always something new to learn from you.
Even if someone had chosen after death not to be with God the idea that God would stand back and let them be tortured for all eternity - even if they are just torturing themselves is a vile belief capable only of the craziest and most manipulative of cults. I remember once because I was very mentally disturbed I started to harm myself by hitting myself and a friend who was a good friend saw what I was doing and restrained me and said "Think about what you are doing. Can't you see you are worth more than that" He did not respect my free will to beat my brains out. People in solitary confinement often self harm atrociously. If people don't want anything to do with god and will remain utterly wicked no matter how God tries to teach them he would annialate them with great great sorrow. For them to be suffering for all eternity in utter torment would be inexcusably cruel. God would loose the moral high ground very very rapidly. But even that would not be the bottom line. The bottom line is it would be utterly utterly pointless. Many Christians show a very good moral example by human standards in the lives they lead and I have certainly a great deal to learn from some of them. However with others I feel they are smug about going to heaven and almost gloating at those who will be down below them in the lake of fire. You also have to remember that in medieval times and still in many countries many people die before they are five years old and many others are still born. If a four year old rejects God from his own from will because his earthly father beats him and sexually abuses him will God respect his free will and send him to eternal torment. Just a brief look at the variety of human experiences (and how our opinions of God can sometimes be molded by circumstance more than free will) teaches us that the system of heaven and hell is a horrendously naive way to judge human beings. And no we do not all deserve hell as eternal torment. To think that is indulgent moronic goody goody I'm holier than you are martydom. For anyone to deserve that they would have to reject God and be utterly utterly evil for all eternity and the two eternities would cancel each other out. One thing is clear though - there are many people on this planet who would rather know that they are a terrible terrible sinful rebel against god and be given a micky mouse salvation kit than not know who on earth they are and be told they have to work it out for themselves.
Love reading Bart Ehrman's books. He is such a font of Biblical knowledge.
Very, very interesting explanation of original language concepts of Biblical Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, soul & spirit.
Regards
Hades isn't biblical, it's purely a Greek concept that informed the variations of the underworld depictions in different biblical myths.
If you are being threatened with Hellfire are you really repenting or are you just sucking up? People go into survival mode when confronted with the unspeakable and will say or do anything to protect themselves. I'd like to think God is smart enough to realize that and would instead draw us toward Him with love, peace and hope, something we all need to live healthily.
Outline of discussion:
00:00 Intro
00:32 Guided Tour’s Heaven & Hell
02:02 Apocalypse of Peter
03:38 Realms of the Damned
04:39 Authorship of “Apocalypse of Peter”
06:13 How to read ancient literature (and understand context)
07:30 Concepts of Hell & Gehenna
09:22 Importance of reading academic scholarship on the Bible
11:06 Ancient Hebrew ideas about the body & soul (and annihilation after death)
15:50 Where does Jesus go after he died on the cross?
15:59 Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, Hades
17:20 Harrowing of Hell
18:41 The Gospel of Nicodemus
19:22 Annihilation & Kingdom of Heaven on Earth
22:29 Universalism: A Sovereign God will Save All
24:01 Ancient texts
24:48 The Apocalypse of Paul, The Acts of Thomas, The Gospel of Nicodemus,
26:00 Purgatory History & Origins
28:07 Abraham’s Bosom: Rich Man & Lazarus
30:21 Where did ancient people think heaven and hell were?
32:11 Tower of Babel
33:00 How to be critical readers of the Bible
35:42 Academic study tools and resources for Biblical interpretation
Tnq
Thank you
Well, Peter was known for his vivid dreams (e.g., Jesus' walking on water). But given Jesus' emphasis on this being a loving universe, I hardly think that he actually showed Peter anything about "the damned". They (non-ascenders) simply cease to exist after death.
IMHO "hell" has human vengeance written all over it. It doesn't actually exist, (much as we might like it to). At one point, people used to think there were 5 hells.
How about spiritual heaven? Does that exist?
Tnq for this interview
Great video.
Ehrman is the best!
Such a hack!
One element that is often overlooked is the influence of the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism. The Last Judgement and heaven /hell could arguably be credited to that faith by way of syncretism.
John 20:31; 1 John 5:13
Howard Storm has written a book "My decent into Death". He experience Katabasis. What do you think? There are others who believe they experience an after life. What do you think?
What does Dr Erhman think of the catholic concept of purgatory?
Did not call himself in 1st Corinthians 3:11 through 15 say that every man will pass through the fire of God's judgment to see if it's precious stones or wood hay and stubble but if it's wood hay and stubble it'll be like escaping from a burning house but in the end you will be saved sounds pretty plain to me
The concept of extreme, brutal eternal torture and terror, for nonbelievers or sinners, has always fascinated me. Firstly why? Why is it necessary to have a horrific, eternal punishment for nonbeliever or sinners? Wouldn’t it have been more than enough to say the sinners would be excluded from the benefits of heaven? Apparently not.
It's an effective strategy (scare tactic) to convert people.
Well the Gehenna that Jesus refers to is most certainly not just the Valley of Hinnom because it's described as the Gehenna of fire. And there's also other descriptions of a hellish-like place (perhaps condition) in the Gospels (not necessarily called "Gehenna"), such as the recurring motif of fire, that demonstrate that there is much more to the fate of the wicked than just a bad place for your corpse to be. Is it in accordance with good ole Sheol? No, absolutely not. But that's another issue altogether.
The topic of this discussion is, what happens/where does a soul go when it leaves the body? There is a clue in one of the gospels. A person asked Jesus, "Why was the man born blind? Did he sin or did his parents?" That gives one the impression that the soul doesn't go anywhere, it stays with the relational soul group that doesn't disintegrate, but is composed of memory information/energy, presupposing that we are all members of soul groups that are connected through experiences from life to life. So, that is part of a larger discussion that Jesus must have had with either his disciples or he gave a talk to a group of people. And, this discussion was not developed in the New Testament, so we don't really get the full impact of the important information that was left out of the story. Another thing, when one thinks of what a soul is, and that it evolves eternally as part of the structure of the infinite universe, the thought of destroying all the souls in hell becomes a ridiculous and impossible proposition. What is the actual stature of a soul that is millions, billions, trillions of years old, and what would happen if any soul of such magnitude was destroyed? It might mean the end of a large portion of the universe being destroyed. We know nothing of these realities at this time. Perhaps in the next thousand years we will know more.
I know this is months old but I wanted to entertain a theory or an idea I've had for quite a while that the annihilation part is more like pruning a tree with dread branches. The tree is still intact so whatever part that is dead is cast aside but the tree remains so it can continue to grow and bear fruit. Annihilation can be seen as a mulligan of sorts but any kind of memory you had of that life is destroyed because the whole point is to grow and not to wither. I can be wrong but it's just a theory I've had since I was a child. Take care!
*James Tabor on Sheol in Tanakh*
a land of silence and forgetfulness, a region gloomy, dark, and deep (Psalm 115:17; 6:5; 88:3-12; Isaiah 38:18). All the dead go down to Sheol, and there they make their bed together-whether good or evil, rich or poor, slave or free (Job 3:11-19). The dead in Sheol are mere shadows of their former embodied selves, lacking substance they are called “shades” (Psalm 88:10).[iv] There is one “séance” story in the Hebrew Bible in which the infamous medium of Endor conjured up the “shade” of the dead prophet Samuel at the insistence of king Saul, who wanted to communicate with him. When Samuel appears, rising up out of the earth, he asks Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” (1 Samuel 28:8-15). But even Samuel must then return to Sheol. Death is a one-way street; it is the land of no return _(end Tabor)_
Parallelisms go both ways, so just because some verses parallel Sheol with the grave, it doesn’t tell you that they thought Sheol was just another word for not existing.
That clearly wasn't really Samuel but a familiar spirit pretending to be him.
@@Mrm1985100 In 1 Samuel 28:15, it was explicitly Samuel
What about the term "the bosom of Abraham"?
JoHN that is for gay believers like you!
The definition of the word "Parable" is A simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. So the parable is not real. Anyway, the spinal core of Judaism and even Christianity is "The Resurrection". If you are "Just" you resurrect and you "Are Not Just" nothing happens, you cease to exist! 😉
It's the part on the inner earth that was given to Abraham as an inheritance. You can find this in Genesis after the Melchizedek story.
Don't listen to the parable thumper comment that is above me. It is a real place.
They discuss that at 28:05
Recommended study Bibles: The HarperCollins Study Bible. The Oxford Annotated Bible (OAB), published also as the New Oxford Annotated Bible (NOAB). Recommended commentaries:
The Oxford Bible Commentary . The Jerome Biblical Commentary.
We have a big problem with Bart's assertions. One is "treasures in heaven" and "kingdom of Heaven" and the whole idea of "salvation" and "what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul", all of which points to a soul that can be judged. Why would one surrender their shirt to one who stole ones coat if not some ultimate judgement? Any judgment must imply something that can be judged and any assertion of not doing evil implies a judgemental good which again implies something that can be judged. It is even hard to see Moses without looking at the Egyptian book of the dead which clearly indicates the transmigration of the soul.
What was your soul before you were born?
What is a person's soul after death? Does the pre-dementia or post-dementia person/soul go to heaven?
And how do you know any of this?
@@canwelook You really have only one question "How do you know any of this". I like Bart start by the assumption that there is some logical process that all of these assertions must attend to for if not then there is no point in even considering the subject. Bart has to defend his efforts at logic some how for him to be just getting even for some errant instruction is not very satisfying or lucrative.
@@marshalldarcy7423 OK. You couldn't answer the most basic questions about the nature of these 'souls' you say exist. Nor could you say how you know anything at all about their existence or nature.
@@canwelook Basic is the problem. I would first have to know what you would accept as a definitive answer. You could suggest that you will believe only this of me and that would be helpful. I am assuming that you may be familiar with metaphysics. which tries to answer questions through a system of logical deduction about our common experiences. This is all you would accept I assume. I could suggest experiences that we do not have in common but you would not accept such experiences as valid. In my assertion I start by noting some assertions Bart made about Christianity and show how one could come to a different conclusion and that some assertions do not explain other assertions thus a logical leap that is not supported in all instances. This is sort of how metaphysics works. Emerson is a man that you should probably read though his observations about the soul may not agree with your prejudices. He does start by noting that the separation that we all experience from each other is indicative of a common unity which presents a common source but this would be hard for you to understand.
@@marshalldarcy7423 Of course people (especially those with prejudices) will interpret things differently than others. So what? You've not made a sound case why your particular interpretation carries any weight. Even if you want to pull in cloudy terms like metaphysics, you still need to SHOW how what you say has validity, not just assert it.
19:40- wat Jesus thought
Check Abraham's bosom
According to the saying of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, “the fire that the son of Adam kindles is but one part of seventy parts of the fire of Jahannam.” He also said: “(Hellfire) was favored by sixty nine parts.”
In another saying he said: “On the day of Resurrection, the person who will receive the least punishment among the people of the Fire, wears two sleepers made from the fire of Jahannam causing his brain to boil, just as a pot boils. He thinks that none in the Fire is receiving a more severe torment than he, when in fact he is receiving the least torment.”
The Quran is full of references to the hellfire.
The Prophet, pbuh, also said that after death there are only two places, heaven or hell.
Nice ! Very interesting ! Now, - what remains is the aquard idea that God is a male. Why is gender/ sex nesesary when something is almighty.
Gehenna/Jehanna is an Aramaic which means a bad place.Jahannam in Arabic means the name of one of the hellfire
Wasn't there a Jewish tradition, used by Jesus, that the wicked would not be punished but made extinct, non-existence?
My understanding, just from listening to stuff like this, is that that's what the Jews originally tended to believe happened to everyone, good and bad alike.
@@Anthropomorphic Originally, yes, because what mattered was helping to make the nation holy before God. But by the time of Jesus most jews, including the liberal Jews, the Pharisees, bel;ieved that the righteous would have eternal life and the rest be made extinct.
Ehrman mentions that at 12:00. The most specific verse for that is Matthew 10:28
@@johnmcgrath6192 the "liberal" jews were precisely the ones who believed in a resurrection. the traditionalists (e.g. sadducees) still held to the old belief that death was the end for everyone.
From the beginning, jews knew for a fact that both righteous or evil will be asleep after death,
But after the messiah comes, there will be a resurrection of the dead which will take place, those who God made righteous will be able to have eternal life and those who were unrighteous will be judged and be in contempt, they will see the glory of God which they could've get if they were righteous and then they will be destroyed and their life will be taken from them, like Sodom and gommorah, that's what will happen when Jesus christ comes, he will judge the (living) and the (dead),
Those who are living will not die,
And those who are dead will not live (eternally).
What about the stories of people who experience NDE and claim to have gone to Hell and describe Hell and claim to have seen certain people in Hell?
Is it any wonder a brain when deprived of oxygen tends to malfunction? If one looks at all NDE's with a critical eye you will find there is no real proof of anything more than that going on. As a great example people always tend to have experiences that match their preconceived notions about death, heaven, and hell. People raised in the western world tend to see Christian imagery, while those who practice eastern religions tend see exactly the type of thing they expect to see. Hindus see Hindu things, Christians see Christian things. That fact alone makes it absolutely obvious NDE's are no more than a damaged brain doing damaged brain types of things.
A lot of these people are just having nightmares. If this is something your Church teach you about death. You will believe anything someone tell you. And the person telling the story knows that. They will exaggerate the situation until they start selling books.
The NDE experience will be shaped by the religion and culture into which the person was indoctrinated.
@@canwelook Not true at all. Hindus, buddhists, and muslims have had completely different experiences where they meet Jesus. Jesus is usually the person who appears, but not always.
@@zephyr-117sdropzone8 THE NDE REALITIES......................
Scratch beneath those flat EKG lines, and the stories are a veritable twilight zone of inconsistencies. Some near-death voyagers claim to have met God - BUT A FEW SAW ELVIS PRESLEY OR GROUCHO MARX, researchers say. Others get to heaven not through the famous “tunnel”, but ABOARD GHOSTLY TAXICABS, FERRIES THAT CROSS THE RIVER STYX, OR SPANGLED COWS.
Even children - often touted as the best source of unbiased information - commonly return from “death” claiming they were GREETED IN THE OTHER WORLD BY STILL LIVING TEACHERS, AND NINTENDO CHARACTERS, instead of deceased relatives.
A few hospitals have placed signs in their cardiac units - with nonsensical messages visible only from above - but so far NOBODY HAS RETURNED FROM DEATH CLAIMING TO HAVE FLOATED UP AND SEEN ONE.
You would expect, that if any particular religious account of the afterlife were true, NDEs would be pretty much the same. BUT THESE ACCOUNTS ARE SO VARIED AND ARE ALL BASED ON CULTURAL EXPOSURE. IN INDIA PEOPLE SEE HINDU GODS, IN SAUDI ARABIA IT'S MOHAMMED, ALLAH, AND A BUNCH OF VIRGINS. The kid from the book/movie Heaven is for Real saw a Jesus with bright blue eyes, and ONE LITTLE GIRL WENT TO HEAVEN AND WAS GREETED BY A PORTLY MAN WITH A WHITE BEARD AND A RED CAP A.K.A. SANTA CLAUSE.
The Mapuche people of South America and residents of Hawaii are more likely to SEE LANDSCAPES AND VOLCANOES, whereas NDEs in Thailand and India rarely involve landmarks, tunnels or light; for Tibetans, light features more heavily, as do illusions of reincarnation. Europeans and North Americans often visualize beautiful gardens; intriguingly, the Kalai of Melanesia are more inclined to SEE AN INDUSTRIALIZED WORLD OF FAVORITES. An NDEr’s subjective experiences can be attributed to many factors: THE NDEr's PSYCHOLOGY, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, BACKGROUND, ETC. - NOT JUST CULTURE.
The terrain of heaven also varies wildly - from gardens, forests, or CATTLE FILLED PASTURES in some accounts, to clouds, COMPUTER ROOMS, or castles in others. A TEXAN SAW BARBED WIRE FENCES IN THE AFTERLIFE; Micronesians describe large, noisy CITIES WITH CARS AND SKYSCRAPERS.
To date, six studies have tried some form of this method, mostly on cardiac-arrest patients, and all have failed to find an ironclad case of veridical perception. All involved placing some stimulus-a picture or a symbol on, say, a piece of paper or an electronic display-in a high location, visible only if you were floating near the ceiling.
Whereas American near-death survivors are typically sent back by God because “it’s not your time yet,” INDIA'S AFTERLIFE VISITORS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE TOLD THERE WAS A “CLERICAL ERROR.”
Even more curious: SOMETIMES THE BEING OF LIGHT IS ELVIS PRESLEY.
TWO STUDIES HAVE FOUND THAT PATIENTS’ “OUT OF BODY” ACCOUNTS OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE OPERATING ROOM WERE WRONG.
Sixty years ago, Dr. Wilder Penfield, a neurosurgeon, poked around the right temporal lobe of some epileptic patients and discovered that they would hear heavenly music, relive their pasts in 3D, and have out-of-body visions. Similar experiments continue.
IF ANECDOTES MEET YOUR STANDARD FOR WHAT QUALIFIES AS EVIDENCE, then you should probably start buying tin foil and food buckets, because THERE ARE JUST AS MANY PEOPLE WHO REPORT SEEING REPTILIANS AND WHO HAVE BEEN ABDUCTED BY ALIENS.
2,000 years of evolution for christians
Did it look like Bushwh6
What the Bible says is upon death, we undergo corruption and become dust once more. If our name is found in the book of life, we will be resurrected at the trumpet call for the resurrection of the begotten, to an indestructible body and rewards as the Lord sees fit. We will rule and reign with Yeshua for 1000 years. If our name is not in the book of life, we will continue to be in the grave until we are resurrected for judgment. At which time we will be given a new body, and personally undergo God’s judgment of our life.
Actually Jesus did speak of the torments of gehenna. It's quite explicit. Go back and read the New Testament again.
wow dr. Ehrman got so old.
he is 70 years old , dummy. He still probably works more and accomplishes more than you
dear friends. the lake of fire is gehenna, in greek its a burning place its not the dust/ground/pit, gehenna is the lake of fire, it symbolises torment. The dead are drad, cannot think, feel, ecclesiastes. the soul is tormented, when spirit/breath of father is absent, it yearns to be whole. Holy-spirit is sent out and can recreate the same soul/person who has died, the holy-spirit is sent to restore the soul and they are resurrected, there is no after life, the soul lives again, this way they are born again, there is no life after death, as you make god a liar, who said you will die, for disobedience, all die since Adam, he did not go to the lake of fire, he just died, as god said he would.. ecclesiastes9:5,6 the rich man is in gehenna, its an everlasting torment for rich, greedy, liar, it describes the weeds that will be plucked up in the harvest, the reaper angels throw the wicked into the lake of fire to be burned.. scrap all you were taught about hell. we are waking up to set you straight, listen to a greek.
So what happens after death for sinners?
Bart change your mind and come to Christ that's good for you.
is it good for you ?
Sir, this is a Wendys lol😂
Ask Jewish instead to creating new sect
Nah, he might be a scholar but what he's telling you is not "gospel." Take Able for example. When God confronted Cain for the murder of his brother, He said, "Your brother's blood cries to me from the ground." Then there's King Saul who paid the witch of Endor to consult the deceased prophet Samuel on his behalf... and she was terrified at her success. If Jews did not believe in an after life, what would compel King Saul to try to contact the dead prophet? Jesus said, "God is LOVE" and "I am the TRUTH, the WAY and the LIFE" Separation from God is death. If you are separated from God spiritually, as a result of sin, you are spiritually dead. If you physically die and are spiritually separated from God, you are then separated from all the goodness that proceeds from God; life, light, love, peace and wisdom, to name a few. That void is hell and torment. No one needs to go there because Atonement has been made by the Lamb of God. Redemption will not be forced on anyone either. If you reject so great a salvation and stubbornly embrace sin, how can you know God?
What makes you think that by rejecting God or Jesus that you’re embracing sin. I’m not an atheist, but I know atheists who are more moral than a lot of Christians I’ve known.
@@davidkeller6156 It is a general question, David, but one which I admit is polarizing. Apparently you take comfort in the idea of being morally neutral. Like you, I know Hindus and other non Christians who appear to be morally superior to many Christians. Yet we know that ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. Sadly, many Christians believe that God's grace gives them license to sin. It's important to remember that Christians are not the standard of Christianty, but Jesus is. Jesus said, "If you love me, you'll obey me." One of his commands is simply, "Follow me." This is the acid test for us all. What or who do you follow? Who do you emulate or upon what do you model your behavior? This shows who we love
Up was never in the sky it was always an internal movement of perceptions. Bart should give up on his straw dogs. He should learn something about other religions and stop thinking that the similarities between religions is a proof of the falseness of the Christian faith as oppose to a validation of it. Self evident truth does not need a scribe.
REPENT! GOD'S JUDGEMENT IS COMING!
Your caps lock is stuck on.
God's judgement has been coming ever since civilization has begun,
The essenes never believed physical death is the end. There were jews believing in reincarnation also.