Why Yoda Isn't Great - 9 Years Later
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- Why Yoda Isn't Great (original) - [ • Lightsaber Combat Theo... ]
Mask of the Jedi - [ • Mask of the Jedi ]
Back in August of 2012, when my channel and my skills were still in their infancy, I uploaded a six-minute opinion piece where I stated my position that Grandmaster Yoda was one of the most overrated characters in all of Star Wars, particularly in the realm of lightsaber combat. However, my original argument was overly harsh and heavily biased, based on a petty sense of betrayal after my follow-up analysis started to poke some holes in Yoda. Previously, I had completely and unreservedly bought into the idea that Yoda was the greatest lightsaber duelist within the Star Wars setting, and found the notion of it not holding up under intense scrutiny almost offensive, and I effectively blamed the creators for messing up. While my butthurt has had almost ten years to subside, I still stand by many of the points that I made, I've simply come to view them as limitations that will only come up some of the time, rather than defining weaknesses that invalidate Yoda.
The basic truth of the matter is that Grandmaster Yoda, in how he is described and presented, isn't perfect or unbeatable.
[00:43] - Power of the Jedi Sourcebook - Chapter 6: Jedi Traditions - The Jedi Council - Mace Windu, Jedi Swordmaster - Pg 112
[01:46] - Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader - Part II: The Emperor's Emissary - Chapter 13
[04:09] - Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat - Lightsaber Combat through the Star Wars Saga - Attack of the Clones
[04:18] - Revenge of the Sith - Part Two: Seduction - Chapter 15: Death on Utapau
[05:35] - The Empire Strikes Back - Film, 1980
[05:43] - Attack of the Clones - Chapter 9
I think that a good way to look at Yoda is this: he's a master with centuries of experience. However, he never had a true opponent to cut his teeth on. Like Jen said, his attributes put him so far ahead of the game that he really didn't HAVE to innovate or come up with unique approaches outside of what worked.
So, yes, Yoda is a one note fighter, with a high knowledge base who simply operated at a level that next to no one could compete with.
When it comes to the force, yes definitely. Lightsaber combat…..I’m a hesitant to say one note as he does have knowledge on the other forms, not just ataru, but I suppose with using ataru as his primary form, then yeah I guess he’s still one note.
I agree with your premise 100%. But is is really cool to watch you develop and refine your stances with logic and reasoning. Thank you for doing this. You are one of my favorite content creators. Your formant and narrative makes you my favorite VS Series creator.
Like Kaioh in hokuto no Ken. An incredibly strong fighter, but lacked an equal to truly make him grow
@@neonthunder3261 Exactly. Because he was operating on such a high skill level that only a few could ever match him, pretty much all his weaknesses rarely ever came up or were negated.
Yoda's flaws are the flaws of the Order. He wastes his energy and he's grown stagnant over the centuries.
well said
Agreed
It makes sense, he was present for the Rusaan Reformation which is what set the Order on that path.
@@johnowen9349 true
@@johnowen9349 What? He wasn’t born yet when the Ruusan Reformation happened. That event was in 1000 BBY. Yoda wasn’t born until 896 BBY, which was 104 years later.
"True mastery of the Force is the use of its versatility and not simply playing wizard."
This. 🙏
The same could be said for Palpatine.
The real ROTJ: Return of the Jensarai1
Really enjoyed this video. Something you said in it really intrigued me. At 1:53
"True mastery of the Force is exressed through versatility, not playing Force Wizard." Can you make a video going deeper into that? I like that thought and think it has merit, but I want to see what exaxtly brought you to that conclusion.
Yeah! He already seems to give hints of it in the video with that whole “almost everyone who stopped using a lightsaber died via lightsaber” Part.
For all the limitless powers of the force it takes a lot of focus an energy, and most very often physical movements to utilize combatively, lightsaber conversely can kill all too quickly even if your enemies paying attention.
@@GreaterGrievobeast55 Heck, Sidious himself get gunned down in Dark Empire by Han Solo. Simple 1 shot in his back... Could have been avoided with a lightsaber.
@@leiferikson850 To be fair, Sidious was extremely weakened at that point, where he couldn't even stand unsupported, and he wanted to transfer his essence anyway. I doubt having a lightsaber would have changed anything there.
This line perfectly encapsulates and sums up the people who despise the EU and don't understand the universe and says that Disney was far better, citing TFU's galen marek as an example of why the EU was bad.
_Almost every character within the Star Wars setting - who has sworn off the use of lightsabers - has been killed with one_
*[Anachronistic mockery]:* _Ironic_
“Stagnant and rigid”
Sounds like the Jedi as a whole
The Rusaan Reformation after the fall of the Jedi Lords was the worst thing to ever happen to the Jedi and perfectly set them up for being manipulated and defeated by the Rule of Two Sith.
That’s the price of not having Sith to fight in so long
Yoda should've been Maskashi/Soresu specialist. With Form 3 being the backbone and Form 2 is his offense.
As you have noted those styles are fantastic for those of advanced age thanks to their focus on efficiency.
Also, Yoda was Dooku's master in the old EU, so it would make sense that Dooku would pick up the form if Yoda specialized in it
He's gonna need a longer lightsaber for that
@@arkfounder7056 Dual Phase setting would come in handy. Along with more graceful lunge and leap attacks.
Honestly, I could see Yoda as a Soresu/Niman user. Brickwalling with his saber, evading with his acrobatics focused on economy of movement, and using his Force power as his primary offense.
The thing about Yoda is that he's hundreds of years old, so he could easily specialize in many techniques and use them with equal skill.
Well Dooku's actually master was Thame Cerulian but he only got passing mentions at best.
The fact that I've gone from thinking you're view of Yoda (original videos) was plain crazy to actually agreeing with most of your points shows how far you've come in your analysis and video making. Keep up the great work!
One of these days, Jensarrai is going to post a Halo VS video, and the background music is going to be Star Wars music lol.
Pfft! In all honesty I’ve love to see master chief or arbiter go against some star wars characters!
@@GreaterGrievobeast55 I wanna see fred 104 be used i always thought he underrated
@@GreaterGrievobeast55 They really wouldn't make it far. Maybe against the lower tiers
A lightsaber pike possibly with a dual-phase blade would have made more sense for Yoda. A head height (for Yoda) staff with a lightsaber blade on the end and all the sudden he has plenty of reach and it still looks awesome.
The rooftop fight. Yoda should have been fighting like the shredder did in the 1990 original movie.
So much experience that you can almost stand still blocking dodging parrying and counter-attacking at just the right time just the right amount of movement. Maintaining as much energy as possible. Picking people apart with Superior technique.
You should follow up this video by essentially recreating Yoda's combative style to better suit his philosophy and his physical abilities.
But Ataru is the best suited for Yoda's physical capabilities.
@@dakotatrue12 for his size sure but his stamina needs a less tiring style
@@KumaoftheForest but hes perfectly able to fight with Ataru as it is. His base stamina is not good but hes so strong in the force that he can boost his stamina.
@@dakotatrue12 I’m not saying he can’t know Ataru but he puts too much focus on it. I picture a Niman master able to swap between the 7 styles. Hell, WHY DIDNT MACE TEACH VAPAAD TO YODA!
@@KumaoftheForest because Yoda didn’t need it; how often was Yoda actually going to be engaging in any combat, let alone combat against Sith Lords on his power scale? It’s only really happened twice.
I love that you uploaded this!
yoda is undoubtably tier 1 though 🤷♀️
He's not arguing that. He's just saying that Yoda is overrated. He's undoubtedly top tier, but Yoda's top tier status has been by his overpowered sheer magnitude and his weaknesses were rarely addressed
@@lapplandkun9273 he is overrated
I've always seen Yoda as a living textbook. He knows the rote forms. He's great at teaching lightsaber forms but not a Supreme duelist.
Exactly. Yoda is the poster boy for his era's Jedi. A millenium of empty history, with the Jedi going completely unchallenged in the interim, combined with a 900-year-old grandmaster has resulted in the Jedi losing their edge and regressing. Whereas the Ruusan-era Jedi had been sharpened and tempered by conflict with the Sith, the following peace led to all of that atrophying... Strength gave way to arrogance, tenacity turned to dogma.
By the time the Naboo Crisis rolled around, the Jedi had become little more than the Republic's blunt instruments of peace, their loyalty sworn to the Senate rather than the higher Jedi ideals of harmony and understanding... And no one was a better example than Yoda himself.
@@SoftisNelaris he is good as a teacher. He just never extended himself beyond that. He would use the force to blizzard his opponent like grievous did with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan at least used soresu to attack. Dooku used makashi to deflect blasters. Yoda is just chaining katas at great speed.
And yet he's at least top 3 duelists in galactic history.
Seriously, where in the actual hell is this logic coming from? Ataru makes complete sense for Yoda's size and stature. It's common sense.
@@dakotatrue12 Exactly. His size is a crippling flaw that prohibits him from using most of the forms. He has extremely short reach, short legs, and less physical strength than the average Jedi Knight (even when accounting for force-based enhancement powers). The reach in particular is a huge problem for him, as he simply can't try to outfence an opponent with a weapon longer than Yoda's own combined height *and* weapon length. If he tries to compensate by lengthening his blade... Well, that requires way more strength to handle, let alone the fact that he'd be wielding a sword more than twice his own height which would be awkward as fuck... And that only puts him at the standard 1m, dead even with his opponent.
So what does he do? *He adapts.* He turns his small size into an asset via acrobatics, turning "small target" into "small *fast-moving* target" and slamming into his opponent at speeds and angles that would be impractical for an average-sized humanoid. He even turns his weight into an asset via his tactic of flinging himself at his opponent like a cannonball; As Jensaarai himself said in his Darth Vader vs Yoda redux video (24:13 in that video), "Against most opponents, 50 pounds of Yoda behind every strike is more than can handle."
It's not that he fails to address the weaknesses of his style... It's that it's the only way he can launch an attack in the first place. Soresu is great for defense while Shien gives him targeted blast deflection, but there is simply no way for him to make use of Shii-cho, Makashi, Djem So, Niman, or Juyo in any practical sense due to the extreme difference in strength and height. And of course, the combination of 900 years of study and practice, plus highly unconventional stature, plus extremely high power in the force makes for a nearly unbeatable opponent. The only opponents who can handle him at all have to be powerful enough to not get ragdolled with telekinesis and skilled enough to fend off his unique application of Ataru then break through his Soresu.
Setting Yoda aside for a moment. I've never liked Ataru as a form. In my opinion, it sacrifices too much for too little. I understand that it's a good supplement for soresu, but I think a person would be better off studying either of the form 5 variants. What Yoda is impressive, but he's trying too hard.
It seems that he was given the Ataru style more as shock value then practicality, that's for sure.
Ataru addresses his extremely limited stature. Age was only a longevity problem that applied in a fight against Dooku. Every dueling style is however a liability against every opponent that is physically larger.
The cinematic representation of his Ataru is definitely shock value but the principle is sound.
It was the only style he could be effective with. Anything else would have made him a small, easily attacked, largely immobile target. The first Djem-So practitioner with an ounce of patience and a shred of muscle would have played golf with him. His best bet at that size is to not be present when the blow lands, rather than trying to tank from a galaxy of much larger opponents or deflect with such a limited ability to shift his position relative to the swing radius of most foes.
Except you're completely wrong. Ataru is the most practical for Yoda's size and stature. It may have been for shock value at first, but the style makes perfect sense.
@@johnowen9349 thank you. I would've thought that would be common sense, but I guess not. I'm genuinely surprised how many people agree with Jen on this one.
@@dakotatrue12 Only a Sith deals in absolutes 😉
I like Jensaari because not only is he a good narrator (and sometimes a hilarous one), but he also has an incredible capacity when it comes to SW research, making full use of the source material (apparently nonexistant according to Kennedy) and citing his sources with precision. What a legend.
Here’s a question that I think would be interesting to answer. You’ve been studying both Star Wars lore in its totality as well as the specific intricacies of lightsaber combat for over a decade. In what I would describe as your expert opinion, if you had to create a fighting style from the ground up to be as effective as possible against any combatant, what would it be? You can work with whatever restrictions you wish to put on yourself. Whether you want to work in-lore and build a fighting style based around the masters and techniques of the period, or call upon the complete knowledge of the entire history of Star Wars to build the ultimate fighting style. Either I think would highlight what a true grandmaster level character should try to achieve.
No fighting Style is without it's flaws.. in fact, I'd argue some of the best fighting styles have the most flaws in exchange for their output.
@@HighPhoenix1754 Honestly, I would consider Niman the best, as it has samples from the other forms and utilizes force abilities. As Niman was stated to have no weaknesses, but yet also no advantages, it can switch and be replaced.
@@lapplandkun9273 In the hands of a Combat Focused user, yes. We've seen examples of Niman being downright broken.
However, the majority of Niman users, as shown in episode 2, got wiped out in war because they only wanted a form that could suit all of their needs and allow them to focus on more diplomatic endeavours.. save for the occasional thug.
In the battlefield, most casualties in the Clone Wars before Order 66 were Niman users.
Complete Mastery takes 10 Years. Time you could be spending on another form that wouldn't take that long to utilize, retrofit to your advantage, AND receive immediate benefit from due to their inherent focus.
That and, for the reasons you stated yourself, it has no strengths or weaknesses. Therefore it relies on the user's combative creativity to bring it to bare, which.. again, is why it takes 10 years to master such a form.
That and the lax bladework means you'll have to pair it with another form anyways to make it pop or alter it to be more blade focused, rather than the balance of force + bladework it's mean to portray.
I look at it this way. In Star wars and in our universe everything is some form of long-range, firearm, or blaster. Either shot from a person of vehicle something flying ECT hand to hand combat due to law and order is relatively rare. And just going to lead to the use of a weapon anyway, the weapon mostly being a ranged one LOL
Therefore the best style in our world and in Star wars is Soresu combo with Shien. If you can't block, or shield, your ded.
Ahhh time to debunk this...
So the first point you made about Yoda's duels making no sense due to his old age is inconsistent with how age and the force correlates in the Star Wars universe, lets take Dooku for example, Dooku is 83 during the events of ROTS which if we average out the life spans of Humans and Yoda's species should put them at around the same age relative to life expectancy, essentially they are both approaching the natural life span of their species, however Dooku is noted to still be growing in power throughout the entire clone war here is one quote for reference
"Dooku's powers grew noticeably during the clone wars. Palpatine didn't just have to protect the Sith plan, he had to protect himself"
Dooku's use of the force also essentially negates his old age with the dark side fueling his stamina from his force reserves
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.
-Revenge of the Sith
-
He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed.
-Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization
Not only this but Yoda is confirmed as actually being more powerful at the end of ROTS than he was even before he started to decrease in power when he was around 600-700 as noted in the Jedi Path where Yoda muses that he cannot achieve an application of TK after passing 700 that he once could
This comes by way of Anakin Skywalker at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith being stated to be the best there has ever been
and the most powerful Jedi of his generation...
This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.
He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.
-Revenge of the Sith Novelization
This quote caps Yoda before his decline leading up to ROTS under Beginning of ROTS Anakin, Anakin grows noticeably throughout ROTS to discovering 'new powers' when he turns to the dark side and is stated by George Lucas to be = to Sidious on Mustafar, this is the same Sidious that is also stated to be = to Yoda in both C-Canon and G-Canon sources
Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.
-Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi
”Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has'
-George Lucas, A New Hope Alternative Commentary with Archival Interviews from Cast and Crew
Obi-wan screwed that up by chopping off his arms and legs and burning him up. from then on, he was not as strong as The Emperor
-George Lucas Rolling Stones Interview
So Yoda being = to ROTS Sidious in their duel means that is is also = to Mustafar Vader who is far more powerful than beginning of ROTS Anakin who is more powerful than Yoda prior to decline, the main point here being that Yoda is directly shown to be all round better in his duel with Sidious than he has ever been before even when he was young, in fact when it comes to force users all age is really shown to do is potentially tire one easier and require one to draw on their force reserves to compensate, not reduce ones martial ability or outright make them weaker, we see this in Fate of the Jedi with Darish Vol
“There were more discussions, and plans, and then at last it was time for sleep. Vol would never admit it, but he tired more easily the older he grew. More and more, he found himself needing to take a few moments to utilize the Force to refresh himself. If only one could completely renew an old body, he mused. But he had to settle for knowing that his age was still more an advantage than a liability.”
-FoTJ: Ascension 38
despite this Darish Vol is still stated to be able to utterly destroy Workan who is in turn stated to be able to utterly destroy Gaalan who is directly compared to Kyp Durron and Kyle Katarn, but that's something I wont get fully in to
Next up you mentioned Bad choreography, which you make a good point about, however this is purely a filmmaking nit pick, under the policy of LFL for the sake of canonical accuracy I am interpreting choreography how Lucas says to interpret it, for example bigger and flashier = better in the film medium no matter what, take Lucas saying choreography is proof that Sidious > Maul so he takes the PT characters appearing better on-screen as literal superiority In universe he largely thinks choreography is reflective of ones powers which actually fits really well with some of the big hard binds of star wars, for example Vader being slow and clunky in ANH and Maul being fast and agile in TPM mirrors Lucas' other statements that Qui-Gon Jinn and Maul are > Vader, Yoda fighting the way is does, from an OOU Lucas viewpoint is that Yoda is the most powerful of all Jedi and the greatest swordsman, which is also reflected in Gillard and Lucas' Tier System where Yoda is labeled as a 9 along with Sidious and Mustafar Vader, 9 being the absolute pinnacle of combative ability possible, Gillard has gone on record saying that a level 10 doesn't even exist, and yes the tier system and GIllards official rankings from when he was part of the production team are G-Canon so have absolute authority over the Star Wars Universe being the highest form of Canon, so while I do understand your issue here, this does not say anything about Yoda as a character in universe and is purely an issue with the production of the film and does not serve as a valid argument against Yoda's capabilities at all
Yoda going against Jedi philosophy, again another good point that unfortunately doesn't change anything in the actual lore, Yoda doing something you think he shouldn't be doing doesn't mean him doing that is proof he isn't as good at it as is stated multiple times, same goes for the choreography point too tbh.
at the end of the day Yoda is stated in G-Canon to be a level 9, the highest possible level of combative ability, not only that but he is disarming Sidious who has the same accolade and is also noted to be one of the greatest saber duelists of all time, here is a few binding quotes,
Yoda had mastered the exceptional art of Form IV lightsabre combat, and was widely acknowledged as the greatest lightsaber duellist in the Jedi Order. His lightsabre skills were legendary among the Jedi, not least because, until the Battle of Geonosis, few had ever seen Yoda in combat.
-Star Wars Fact Files
Using his lightsabre, Yoda became a master of the immensely powerful and highly acrobatic Form IV lightsabre discipline. To see him in combat was an awesome spectacle, for he became one with his lightsabre in a whirlwind of luminous green energy.
-Star Wars Fact Files
So while I do appreciate and agree with a lot of the point you are making, non of it matters in the lore and does not mean Yoda is not Great or change his power level in any way shape or form
then let it be a cinematography lesson of make sure to properly show not tell.
@@risingofthethorn1197 Yeh its an issue with the CGI Choreography, not an issue with with anything else, if Jen changes the Title of this video it will make a lot more sense
Thank you for gathering all this into one post. I agree completely. I find it funny that even after nine years Conner is still missing the point.
@@Darthpsychonis No Problem, yeh lol smh
Thank you for this. I like Connor's videos, but he still uses CGI as his main argument against Yoda.
I disagree that people like Palpatine or Yoda should use a lightsaber. I think the only reason they do, and people who don't, get killed by one and are always "just arrogant", is a lack of creativity on Star Wars writers, particularly George Lucas in the prequel era.
They could have invented new force powers that completely circumvent the need for a lightsaber that only masters could learn, and had far more interesting abilities on display during Dooku, Palpatine and Yoda's force duels other than throwing things or lightning. Things we already saw in the Original Trilogy because no one wanted to innovate past there. Sure, Yoda redirected lightning and that was cool, but that's the only slightly new power we're introduced to, that even then, is just a variation on lightning. And Yoda, who simply closed his eyes stuck his hand out, and lifted a spaceship out of the water casually, is now barely able to lift a pillar because he's "tired". Yes you could say "Oh Yoda had more time to gather his energies in Empire", but first of all, the fact that he closed his eyes while doing it never struck me as that. It always seemed to be him showing Luke the true power of the force, how it could be made so easy, that you can lift any gigantic object even with your eyes closed. Second, gathering your force energy shouldn't be a challenge for grand masters, period. The force shouldn't be more challenging to people with old age. That was the point of the force in Empire. Even an old small muppet like Yoda could use it without issue.
I think it would have been far more interesting if when Dooku switched to lightsaber dueling, Yoda never pulled a lightsaber, but instead absorbed every strike Dooku threw, with his own hands. Like Shaak Ti in the Clone Wars micro series and Satele Shan in TOR "Hope" trailer. It would even fit with Yoda's line in Empire, "A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense. NEVER to attack." Not to mention it would prove that size doesn't matter, whereas Yoda flipping while dueling because that's the only way he can reach most people's height does not, as his size not only forces him to jump all the time like a jack-rabbit and be more vulnerable, but also causes him to tire quicker, even though he shouldn't have to exert himself.
As for Palpatine, I hate to reference The Last Jedi as a positive example, but I think if Palpatine tricked Windu with a force projection, while he hit the other 3 Jedi with force lightning from a distance or drained the life from them, that would have been far preferable to the awkward as hell duel in ROTS. Just imagine, Palpatine charges at them as a projection, they swing at him, he dodges a few, but he eventually gets hit by a few saber strikes and isn't hurt. The Jedi are confused, and suddenly, everyone but Windu begin to emaciate and soon fall over dead on the ground, and Windu turns around to see Palpatine smugly smiling. Of course the projection doesn't drain Palpatine at all because that's retarded. If he was just always using obscure, offensive sith abilities, and the Windu fight ends when he either repels one, or he corners Palpatine with a lightsaber and Palpatine plays weak for Anakin, I doubt most would have taken issue with that. For the Yoda fight, obviously Yoda is too smart to fall for a force projection since he's around 870 at that point, but a real force duel akin to Dumbledore and Voldemort's duel in Harry Potter could have been so much more interesting. Hell even if you still want to have Palpy throw the senate at Yoda, the whole senate, then at least have him infuse the pods with lightning or something. Throw some creative new angle the audience hadn't seen before, rather than the ultimate expression of Palpy's power being he throws things well and shoots lightning again.
I know a lot of these powers were created by other sources before and after the prequel trilogy, but that doesn't matter. My point is the prequels didn't even take new force abilities from other sources or invent any themselves. It was mostly just Original Trilogy stuff because they knew that stuff would sell easier, and people would be ok with it because, "These are thing I know!" No one wanted to innovate with Yoda and Palpatine so they just said "Give them lightsabers, that'll be cool, everyone wants to see them with lightsabers, they'll like it." That's as deep as Lucas thought into it. You see this directly when he talks about Yoda in the Episode 2 behind the scenes.
This is what many people take issue with the Star Wars universe post prequels. It seems so expansive and interesting. But none of this is demonstrated in the movies. It's always just recycled elements from the OT with new planets and creatures here and there. So to the average Star Wars critic, it's a universe as wide as an ocean, but with the depth of a puddle, and the low amount of thought and effort that went into Yoda and Palpatine's fighting abilities, is just another example of this.
Would have been cool if they had it that if Yoda did ever fight with the saber he did it Traya style and used the force to control it without touching it. Or they had him force imbue his walking stick and fight opponents Vodo Siosk Baas style.
"I regard the superior force energy reserves as a handicap rather than an asset, as it has blinded Yoda to his own limitations and allowed him to coast by for centuries."
That was the arc of Yoda. George Lucas' point of the prequels was that Yoda's Jedi Order had failed and were responsible for the end of the Golden Age of the Jedi.
Even George Lucas' original conception of Yoda was that he was not a warrior but more of a teacher. Back in the OT days George thought Vader would have defeated Yoda in combat because Yoda was a mentor/teacher archetype and not a practicing warrior like Vader was.
Yoda and Mace were failures. They were not good Jedi ultimately.
Even in the OT when Yoda has learned from Qui Gonn how to manifest as a Force Ghost both him and Obi Wan are still giving Luke bad advice. They're telling him to kill Vader and Luke succeeds specifically because he ignore Yoda and Obi Wan's advice. lol
Jensaarai, I’ve been wondering what your opinion of the reimagined fight between Ben Kenobi and Vader by FXitinPost is!
Been trying to ask him that as well. IMHO, he probably would criticize it for making Vader the unbeatable aggressor with Kenobi at his mercy, as opposed to make him cautious and reserved around the man who crippled him.
@@yrooxrksvi7142 These are basically my thoughts on it.
@@Alarcj7 Exactly. On a pure technical level, Sc.38 Reimagined is astounding and excellently choreographed. But from an in-universe pov, they downplayed Kenobi way too much to make Vader look cooler. Much like Disney does with Vader in the current Marvel comics.
@@yrooxrksvi7142 "Indeed."
@@yrooxrksvi7142 I agree, I’d just like to hear his opinions anyway. Personally I wish the reimagining resembled more of a lightning fast kendo match.
I don't understand your criticism of him using Ataru. It's been explained so many times. It compliments his size. Ataru incorporates acrobatics that he can't get from any other form, and with his size, he has to use acrobatics. Just think about it. If he used any other form he would be wide open for attack because him and his lightsaber are so small, he has to have those acrobatic maneuvers. It might kinda waste his energy, but because he's so powerful in the force, he can handle it, and he rarely ever engaged in combat. Your criticisms are very weak tbh and to me just come off as biased hating.
This is very true , but Yoda does indeed have and use 2 power forms 2 complment his size , makashi and soresu , that's why nobody ever breaks his defense because once he goes on the defense it essentially like trying to a brick wall with a wooden bat
Hey Jensarrai1 have you considered doing book reviews like Dark Rendezvous with the other Fanalysis members again?
I Do Disagree But This Is a Great Video ... But You Missed a very Big Fact , Yoda In Almost Of The Fight's With Opposing Force Wielder's Was Shown To Constantly Hybridize , Form's 2 And 3 and Even Elements Of Form 6 Into His Form 4 Style. He Constantly Made Up For Form 4's Lack Of Defense By Mixing In Form 3 , ( Which If You Notice In Revenge Of The Sith where He Flips up And Starts Blocking Sheev's Strikes With Form 3 Then Flip's Again In Then Goes In Form 4 ) ... In His Fight With Palpatine In The Illusion He Created , Yoda Literally Solutes Palpatine Then Flip's and Then Start's Out Form 2 Using The Disarming Slash and The Form's Parries And Block Technique's Then mixing In Form 4 and 6 as Well ..
Even With The Count Yoda Was Using Both Form 4 And Form 2 a bit
What you described for yoda as "Arrogance in power," is actually what perfectly exemplifies the problems with the Modern Jedi order. In the context of the prequels its great to show not even the grandmaster is infallable.
I personally think what most fans overrate about Yoda is his force abilities. Most mainstream fans will take the xwing feat out of context, as well as his ability to go toe to toe with Palpatine in ROTS.
For starters, the novelization of ROTS explicitly stated in Yoda's thought bubble to himself, that he simply did not have the power or force reserves to defeat Palpatine, and could at best, stalemate him in a competition of power, while Palpatine could still keep going afterwards.
By the time of return of the Jedi, composite Vader was stated by Lucas to 8/10ths of ROTJ Palpatine, who is a stronger Palpatine than the one scene in revenge of the sith, due to further study in the darkside. Let's not forget both of them having overall better showings in terms of Force ability to Rots Yoda in comics and movies.
Even if we put Yoda in tier 1, with Palpatine, Luke, Vader, Cadeus, and Krayt, he'd be right at the bottom. Basically the Pichu of the starwars top tiers. The fact even prime Vader is proven to have more power, says something about how diminished Yoda is in terms of his ability.
Unfortunately, many fans within the fanbase don't get the context of the fight.
@@lapplandkun9273 Agreed, and even in the movie it's clear Yoda lost. He had to flee, and he said "Into Exile I must go. Failed I have." He knew he couldn't beat Palpatine even if he tried again in like a year to plan he'd still lose. So it should be clear that while he is a tier one fighter he's at the bottom of that.
Honestly I like how Yoda is portrayed. Not because I disagree with the flaws you point out, but *because* of them. As the Emperor said, “Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda.”
Quite possibly the quickest I’ve clicked on a video
"Burning a candle from both ends."
That is a very clever way of putting it.
In a way Yoda's lightsaber technique mirrored the flaws of the Order he led: impressive but stagnant and somewhat arrogant.
Is there merit to a matchup between Asajj Ventress and Shado Vao?
Always good to see you making new videos! And this is definitly a improvement of your original video, you were let's say letting the Dark Side take over you and surrending yourself to your hate but i get it is kind of disappointing when the characters you hold in such high regard don't stack up, probably because we hold them in way too high, but your points about yoda flaws are all valid and people need to understand he's not invincible and that's his flaws would only come to haunt against a few handful out of all the opponents he could face in star wars and even then that's not saying he would lose for sure, just like palpatine
Great video as always. Personally, Form IV is my least favorite of the classical 7 lightsaber forms. As you note, it is overly flashy, and the flips and twirls are ridiculous. Jumping at your opponent just slows you down. Just stab him! But even putting aside real-world logic, in-universe it is exhausting and I think largely ineffective. It is supposedly useful for one-on-one engagements in a duel, except Makashi and Djem So are far better. And it lacks defense and is terrible against multiple opponents, be they armed with a lightsaber or a blaster making the situations where it could/should be used quite small in number. It is supposedly the most aggressive, except that Form 7 exists so not really. Again, making it even more pointless. And I would argue Juyo and Vaapad are much much more useful than Ataru. Ataru seems like it would be useful as a training exercise to develop speed and agility but not actually useful in a real fight. I think an absolute master of any other form should be able to beet an absolute master of Ataru most days of the week. A Soresu master would easily stonewall them and just wait for them to quickly tire and then kill them easily. A master of Makashi would easily slip past their not existent defenses and slit their throat with a simple wrist flick, and a master of either Shii Cho or Djem So could easily cut through their acrobatic nonsense with direct power strikes. Meanwhile, a master of Juyo/Vaapad or even a Niman combat specialist would easily overwhelm an Ataru master and could very well cut an Ataru practitioner to pieces. Also, I was wondering if you were planning to make any videos discussing the lightsaber forms of the New Jedi Order. Namely, the Three Rings of Defense, Strong Style, Medium Style, and Fast Style. Like you've done for the 7 forms. Also, I am a bit confused about their use and development. My understanding is that the NJO developed these styles because they did not have access to the 7 forms but eventually rediscovered them. How did the new styles map onto the old? Would an NJO initiate learn the basics of Shii Cho AND the three rings of defense? Are they fused into one style? Or Kyle Katarn. He is a Jedi Battlemaster in the NJO does this mean he has mastered all 7 classical forms as well as all the new forms like the three rings of defense, and Strong Style, Medium Style, and Fast Style? What does this mean in practice? Also, I know Form V has also been described sometimes as Strong Style. Are they different? Etc. Thoughts on all this? Thanks. Have a nice evening.
Ataru is ideal for moving across a battlefield, attacking multiple opponents (usually briefly), and taking on grouped opponents that are ill prepared to deal with you. It's a shock and awe style that presumes the Force is an advantage only the Ataru user is bringing to the battlefield (it became popular after lightsaber wielding opponents became a lot less common). You're supposed to be very aggressive and hard to focus on, eschewing a lot of the defensive focus of the styles both before and immediately after it. But there's a reason that Djem-So/Shien brought that defensive focus back, albeit applied aggressively. You can't rely on being able to blitz every situation. The fight against Dooku showed the weakness of the form, even in the hands of an advanced practitioner, when Dooku almost casually fought Yoda to a stand still after engaging and defeating two much younger Jedi.
I actually find djem so more useless
@@Redoren966 interesting. Why?
@@samuelstepp2890 Because you basically only use your with mediocre footwork. Not to mention its for brutes and huge guys. Only works if you use with another style. For example Vader who is supposebly the best of Djem so has a pretty shitty track record
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and I'm glad that you included a description of what you'd like Yoda to be instead. It's too easy to criticize without providing a better way. I sort of doubt that a dual phase lightsaber alone would be enough to fully overcome the disadvantages of his reach, so I like the idea that his real offense would come from trickery and active use of Force abilities.
In keeping with your point of view, I believe that Yoda could've been even better off if he, after mastering the textbook applications of all seven forms, mastered Niman first, then funneled it into a Soresu/Makashi hybrid style. Niman emphasizes more proactive use of the force in combat and it would've gone a long way to improve Yoda's ability to use his Strategic and tactical genius, and Niman's bladework would've ensured he didn't have to overextend himself as a swordsman, being the most balanced of the 7 forms. Funneling his knowledge of the other styles would help him diversify and adjust his technique, rather than just be versatile in a single skill. Funneling this into Soresu as his primary style, and then grafting Makashi onto it's backbone would give a highly conservative yet deceptive dangerous technique that would basically make him Obi Wan and Dooku combined, with far greater power.
Lucasfilm went in the wrong direction with Yoda as a Jedi Swordmaster and as a Force user.
My 2 cents.
I was going to go to bed, but then you posted this and here I am.
Is nearly a decode enough for your butthurt to subside? Lol lets find out.
1:59 Laughs in Sith Sorcery Hax.
You are def correct, Yoda isn't perfect or unbeatable. But its important to give Yoda credit where its due.
Though his combat animations are ridiculous stage fighting, it makes sense in the context of the films.
The prequels have a bunch of ridiculous non practical moves as its style over substance. If your using a fully animated character and want to depict the Jedi at their "peak", going all out acrobatic cannonball makes sense. From a characterization standpoint? Ehh kind of? Only that doing this lets him get over with fighting as quickly as possible and it does help him overcome his reach issue.
But from a spectacle and style preference, it does make a lot of sense.
To me, the ideal way Yoda should fight is as a form 3 specialist but with a decisive form 4 offense to pull at the right moment.
Use tight and efficient defense to minimize energy until the opponent gives the opening Yoda is looking for to end combat decisively.
Basically, how form 4 was meant to be used.
Thank you so much for the heart Jensaarai!
It always means a lot to me.
Yoda
The most underestimated force user on this channel
Now hold on, he's talking about his lightsaber and dueling skills and how he applies them not force abilities
@@gabrielcanejo187 even then he kind of does and in some ways it’s sort of understandable,
Dooku and Yoda's duel was great bro what are you even saying??? The choreography was amazing to say the least. You just didn't understand the choreography enough to enjoy it. Nick Gillard made those sequences with extreme delicacy and precision. Dooku actually dominated that duel if you look closely. Every attack from Yoda gets parried by Dooku. This happens 3 times during the fight which shows that Dooku is a far greater duelist than we realize.
i think he meant that duel was awful in the technical side. We can clearly see that Yoda's acrobatic stuffs are simply idiotic but so few of his hits actually have a weight on. This is unlike Dooku and later Kenobi, later Vader, they go in a duel with the mentality to win and survive, no need or interest to kill or doing flashy moves. This is quite different in the match between the old Kenobi and old Vader. There is no background music, no dramatic rhymes to highlight the duel. Each strike they make, though not flashy or elaborate, is actually a critical blow. And they keep distance almost constantly, either pointing and poking the saber to the other, or simply jumping out of it like old Kenobi, though the spin was still there but only for a few times and he was far away from Vader's sword.
1:39 wow, thats actually *really funny!!* you make an interesting point about yodas attacks often being out of reach. To be real I kinda wish his shoto saber could be adjusted to a normal length, its not like it would be too heavy or unwieldy after all.
My question is this. Who is the greatest swordsmen in The Star Wars Universe?
I second this query.
Gotta be Luke, right? Not just because he's overpowered, but he's also displayed arguably the most versatile fighting style. He perfectly blends the direct speed and simplicity of Form I, the impenetrable defenses of Form III, the mobility of Form IV, and the domineering counter-offensive of Form V into a unique hybrid style. He's gone toe-to-toe with many among the greatest duelists in the entire Star Wars mythos, including Vader and Palpatine reborn, and has come out on top.
@@infinitesheldon5710 it’s probably down to 2 which would be Luke and Krayt.
Yoda should just be like one of these Muay Thai specialists who spam low kicks. He stays grounded, doesn't do flying knees or spinning heels or anything flashy - he just throws as many strikes as possible to the knees of his opponents. You can't fight if you can't walk.
Welcome back we missed you
Excellent analysis as always
Good to see your deductions
Even though Lightsaber blades have a habit of colliding and sticking together all Tyranus would've had to do is quickly slide his blade down and across, to the side and Yoda would've dropped down dead in that bind.
One thought that has come up in my head wile thinking of a good lightsaberform for a protagonsist is that they could have a solid skillset if they used form 1-3 and mastered them to hight tier degrees. Shi-cho would be a solid foundation for any fighter that decided to take to the field and could at the same time be praticed by taking any heavy blade and putting swinging it into the different katas for an hour together with gymnastic exercises. Then the used proactises the other two for another hour with various opponents.
Shi-cho is used for open battle and the simplistic training is simply used to build strenght and provide full body workout, giving the drilling to perform the moves by instinct guided by the force. All you really need to survive on the battlefield.
Form 2 is used for dueling, tempered with some powermoves from shi-cho and some defensive drills from soresu to help compensate for its weakness, still staying makeshi but fleshing it out for more versitility.
Soresu is used for blaster deflectiong and defensive viability giving time to come up with a plan in case of extreme challenge.
And finally the force, aside from physical boosting a solid telekinetic multitasking ability. Does not need to be strong but capable of multitasking like tearing up the floor and creating hailstorms of small rocks while fencing to provide a distraction or smash weaker oponents. Controlling the battlefield by altering it while going on the offensive with the lightsaber.
Wether this approach is used by a jedi or sith other skills would come into play.
You literally just describe Meetra Surik from the Kotor games and too a lesser degree old Ben Kenobi.
@@ryhnoking then I guess some folks think alike.
Look at that, I just rewatched the original earlier today!
Agreed in all honesty Yoda using a lightsaber 8s completely fine and actually could of been fantastic if he used form 3 as a baseline and form 2 when he'd go on the offensive Yoda should not have been doing flips and twirls all the time especially at his old age
Maybe when Yoda was in his younger years he could of used form 4 but once he got older he should of switched to forms 2 and 3
Yoda overwhelmed Count Dooku in lightsaber combat, and Darth Sidious was forced to rely on his Force abilities to beat Yoda.
So glad to see a follow up it’s been awhile lol always love your vids man
Its always a pleasure to hear your honest opinions because you always have proof to back it up. Keep up the good work brother, I love your videos and I am happy to be a subscriber.
Yes, I remember your original take on Yoda. I also remember you had attempted to record and upload a playthrough of Knights of the Old Republic, though due to technical difficulties, could not continue.
I'd love to see a playthrough of KotOR from you, some day. Even if your equipment still isn't up to snuff, I hope you have plans for it in the future.
Hi jensaarai1 big fan with watching your videos for a while I was wondering could you possibly do Darth Jadus vs Darth nihilus or Lord scourge vs Darth Marr
I can see your reasoning with this. I have a couple of defenses for Yoda that I think play into the characters more. First his duel with Dooku in AotC certainly doesn't make sense in terms of measure, but it's worth remembering that Dooku's defeat of Obi-wan and Anakin was due to his almost archaic lightsabre form being based on controlling distance, not just because it was unknown to them. Put that in and you can understand why Yoda wasn't in measure much of the time and needed to close it with acrobatics.
Second in every lightsabre duel Yoda appears in, if he doesn't end it quickly he burns out and is exhausted at the end.
Yes his style isn't in line with Jedi philosophy but isn't the goal of form 5 peace through superior firepower? Better to launch in, cut the head off the snake before it can strike than back down on heavy attacks on yourself. Add he's essentially a small target going at speed with a lightsabre, and he isn't going to be easy to hit ir fend off.
Don’t suppose you could continue this overrated characters series??? An obvious one I’m going to say is exar kun of course, but also joruus cabaoth, as it’s sort of one I’ve been wondering given a quick mention of him from evannova95 in his can Jedi and sith destroy planets where inquisitor jerec may be more powerful than him. Also while I do agree with the problems of dooku vs yoda, I think the throne room fight in the last Jedi is arguably worst, just….yeesh.
you forget he hates Disney cannon so pretty sure he is just referring to the main 6 films
I feel like with Kun, people really over-exaggerate his feats and abilities. While they are impressive, and he was growing so powerful so early on, that his raw strength could have even rivalled that of Vitiate's, had he been patient enough. He didn't really understand the Dark Side, and generally the power he was meddling with, in a way that a Dark Lord of the Sith should have, and his ego got the better of him. Thus, he pretty much orchestrated his own downfall.
This is coming from someone who literally has Exar Kun ranked in their top 10 characters in the entire franchise btw lmao.
@@GayFishYe same case with me for darth Vader, he’s easily in my top ten characters in Star Wars, but even I’ll admit he’s not invincible and certain opponents can beat him.
@@MusicFan752 yep. Quite a few characters could best Vader in a duel, but almost all of whom are from different time periods to him, as is the case for Kun actually lol. One thing is for sure tho, Vader would stomp someone like Nihilus.
I liked the bouncing ball of death when I was younger, but in retrospect I never understood why he dueled Sidious and Dooku when both fights started and ended with force combat which Yoda is clearly more suited to.
I think you're just jealous of Yoda’s Master Jedi swagger.
Now I have Yoda dressed as Zorro stuck in my head. Thanks for that.
Can't believe I'm just seeing this lol. See, the thing is fighting against a normal sized opponent the only forms Yoda could ever effectively use are Ataru and Soresu. His arms are just too short. Even if he used a longer lightsaber practically speaking that probably opens him up to getting chances since the top of the lightsaber would be further from his arm than any normal duelists and would probably be easy to push out of the way. So I might actually take the position that he has limits as a lightsaber duelist. The Dooku duel hasn't aged well but having a person duel a fully CG character had never been done before and Christopher Lee said in an interview about it the experience was essentially fighting the air and being told where he was supposed to be.
The argument that yoda should not have used a saber comes from way back in the day where there was only the original trilogy and everything else was yet to come... back when star wars had limitless potential and was telling a different story.
SW had limitless potential. The PT gave fans a wider galaxy. The ST butchered it and dumbed it down for the masses
A fair critique of a otherwise powerful combatant. I personally would have loved to see what it would look like for the magnificent little goblin to use vappad.
I think that Yoda has to be broken down in two sections to explain his situation; his swordsmanship and his force abilities. I personally think Yoda's fighting style is a remnant of a hot-headed youth. I'm not aware of any evidence of this it is just my own theory. In his youth Yoda was an incredible swordsman who had an unmatched ability to enhance himself with the force, making a nigh unstoppable battlefield juggernaut. But as he got older he matured or something happened which made him shift away from fighting and towards the force. But it's clear he didn't study and understand the force for the means of martial application beyond this youthful force buffing. Now he's a teacher and a philosopher. So when he has to return to the battlefield he is an old warrior with a style he can no longer fully take advantage not only because of rust and old age but also because he no longer has that warrior mindset, that killer instinct, which many of the sith and even young Jedi use to push them through a tough fight. Think Obi-Wan vs Maul on Naboo when Obi-Wan gets mad. I don't think Yoda is a fool because of how he fights, it is simply a sign that what worked for him no longer does and that is a great metaphor to the state of the Jedi Order as a whole at that time.
One more note. Old Yoda would never apply himself like Zorro because trickery and swashbuckling is not who he became but it honestly might be how he was when he was younger. A brash young prodigy with immense natural talent. Maybe that's why he was so firmly against Anakin joining the order. He didn't identify what was inside Anakin so much as recognize it and felt the boy would not be able to control himself.
I disagree to a point. The fight with Dooku was Yoda on defense due to the likely darkside rage Dooku was under. He dealt with Obi-Wan & Skywalker, and was the aggressor with Yoda. First by a try at intimidation, then lightning... Circumstance is the culprit, not Yoda
I think you underestimate Dooku, as well as fail to take into account that he was trying to leave long before Yoda showed up. He never intended to duel anyone however when the opportunity presented itself he took it,the dark side amplifying a large but mostly well earned ego.He also had sensitive information and knew he couldn't both beat yoda and escape the remaining jedi/army of clones,He needed to flee.We see in Dark Rendezvous That Dooku can land hits more hits on Yoda then the other way around and would likely defeat him given time but we also see it could go the other way.From a psychological standpoint we see The count sometimes having get the proper motivation to attack Yoda.Which usually involved those he viewed as his replacements and ironically prevented him from having the time
To beat Yoda to begin with. However after that last encounter that may no longer be the case.
Either way 6 to 8 times out of 10 it is Dooku's fight.He is powerful enough that as long as he doesn't screw up he can keep up with Yoda.Dooku's fighting style and experience is much more of a foil than yoda's knowledge of him alone Dooku designed his style to counter everything Yoda and the Jedi in general Can bring to the table Yoda simply didn't and in many ways couldn't do the same.
Hey jensaarai1, if you have the time could we have a quick chat about how you and the boys at force council rate and where you rank Anakin Skywalker before he became Darth Vader? Or just say if you agree with some of the points i have about that, because i hear you put him at tier 3 even as just a lightsaber duelist and i just have a really hard time agreeing with that (especially when it comes to his dueling skills) despite the points you guys made.
I agree with most if not all the points you guys made about Anakin's flaws except that i must say even with all of his drawbacks i still think he's tier 1,5 (Only as just a lightsaber duelist, that's something that even with his drawbacks can't go any lower then that, there's even some arguments for tier 1 when it comes to his dueling skill when he's at his best or pushed hard enough) and at tier 2 as a whole but not any lower that even if only because none of the other tier 2 duelists of his era could defeat 1v1 expect Obi-Wan or match him really in lightsaber combat even if they weren't using sorely their lightsaber skills but the force too and he probably could overpower them with the force if he's pushed to it or get angry, against the tier 2 guys he really doesn't have to go into his Avatar of the force state or even the same level he went against Dooku for that, with the exception of maybe Shaak-ti and definitly in the case of the best of them, Obi-Wan for many reasons.
1:His own dueling skill, specially his complete mastery of Soresu that allows him to hold out against Anakin offensive onslaught and for a period of time that no one else on tier 2 could.
2: his complete familiarity and knowledge of Anakin personal style, how he uses it etc, which yes it's balanced out by Anakin knowing just as much about Obi-Wan but it's still a factor.
And lastly that he's arguably the best in all the areas that Anakin is lacking, including being the best among the type of opponent that someone like Anakin would struggle the most against like you said in your 3v3 season 6 finale fight
What do you think?
He rates anakin as a tier 3 for many implied and stated reasons. No question that anakin is one of the greatest swordsman of the Jedi Order and dooku credited him as the finest djem so master of the era. But anakin is overspecialized and prone to lashing out in rage. And even anakin is my favorite character of the franchise, I have to agree. Though not to the degree of Jen, I still agree with his assessment.
His use of the force is quite potent at times but they were only occasional and anakin had to be pressured or quite literally "forced" to use his abilities when his opponent used the force first. As Jen put it in his Anakin vs Sora Bulq, "Anakin is lightsaber orientated to a fault, and while he isn't unwilling to use the force, it doesn't occur to him to use it until the opponent has done so first". As with the portion of lashing out in rage, anakin is prone to dun moch, the art of psychological warfare. He has fallen for this multiple times with ventress and dooku. This also brings to the next point of anakin not thinking smart at times. When ventress was using dun moch and taunting him about his wife, he lashed out instead of actually reconsidering and thinking things through and realizing that he was being goaded. Anakin does supplement djem so with ataru, and some niman, but his primary focus is djem so.
I honestly rate anakin as a high tier 3, to low 2.5. Again, this is just my rating and I may be a bit biased.
If he remained the same and fought more tactically instead of as Jen would put it "going Leeroy Jenkins" and supplemented djem so with more forms to layer it just as he did with vader down the road, I could see anakin as a tier 2.
@@lapplandkun9273 If he did that he would be top tier 2 to maybe downright tier 1,5 like Dooku, but like i said i agree with all the points they made about him and that you said here but i really think that despite all that he has to be all in all least in the low tier 2, because 3 is just too low for him even with all his flaws combined with his abilities, i mean even the highest of tier 3 like Kit fisto and Ki Adi, as good as they are and i fucking love Kit Fisto, (who doesn't really?) They simply can not compare in almost any way, especially when looking at whole of their abilities, i'm not going to go too far and say that's almost feels disrespectful or inconsiderate of Anakin abilities and again i understand that they only say this when taking his flaws in account, which are serious, but it really feels like they think these flaws put him at a level that he simply isn't, no matter how you look at it, i don't know, it just feels like they are not giving him enough credit
@@lapplandkun9273 To be honest, I see him as a Tier 2 using this scale, but that's only because of how potent can be.
@@gabrielcanejo187 I do agree with you, if I haven't pointed that out. I think Jen underestimates and overblows anakin's flaws as a duelist and a force wielder out of proportion a lot of time and he doesn't give anakin credit where credit is due.
You do know that Yoda legitimately bested Sidious in lightsaber combat, right? Not saying this makes him unbeatable, but in all your previous comments about Yoda, you've notably ignored that fact.
Yoda should have been a form 6 master. Niman's specialty of incorporating lightsaber attacks with powerful force abilities should be up his alley. Problem is while Yoda is strong with the force, he needs to concentrate on what he is doing. He is bad at multi-tasking.
If he'd focused on Niman he could have trained that weakness out. He is one of the few characters in Star Wars for whom Niman would be very effective, especially if he kept all the acrobatics from Ataru in his usage of it.
I know you're not a TCW fan but Yoda was kinda like that in that show. When he fought Ventress he didn't even bother to draw his weapon, just used the Force to humiliate her by pulling her lightsabers away and then throwing them back to her before telling her to surrender.
The show addressed Yoda's flaws as well as the EU. He wasn't outwardly arrogant like Anakin, but he was arrogant
Not that i disagree with you, but i kinda liked Yoda jumping around. It reminded me of a 60+ year old wushu master that i saw from the front row seat completley declassing his younger counterpart. Half the time i could barely see the staff that he used. It was awesome.
That's the point. It looks cool. But very impractical.
Can you do a video on Mace Windu, maybe with him facing off against another character? Or what you think about his usage of Vaapad.
Well that was a nice little video to wake up to. You do make many valid points that I do agree with. Although I still think Yoda should have been a Jedi who had grown beyond the use of lightsabers, that has more to do with *how* he used the weapons in most of his appearances.
One of my favourite depictions is his duel with Dooku on Geonosis in the Attack of the Clones novelisation, in which we see Yoda use very minimalistic movements to almost casually deflect all of Dooku’s attacks before launching into his Ataru frenzy. That, to me, is an acceptable middle ground between what is portrayed in the movies and your own idea of how you imagined he would fight.
Yoda and Mace Windu should be complete opposites when it comes to lightsaber combat, an almost extreme variation of the “hammer and anvil” strategy of Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, with Mace obviously being the more aggressive hammer and Yoda being the more conservative anvil.
Ataru can and does work for Yoda, but a character of his age should only be employing it in short, controlled bursts. Plus if he is calling upon the Force to keep up that constant energy, isn’t he effectively abusing his connection to the Force?
Obi-Wan would chide Anakin for lifting a piece of fruit with the Force but Yoda can demand a lot more of the Force even though he has the experience and wisdom to find more conservative ways of dealing with conflict while in tune while being in tune with it, rather than calling upon its resources to bolster himself.
In terms of overall combat style, given his extraordinarily long life span I believe Yoda should have been *the* master of Niman, with the many Jedi that died Geonosis trying to emulate his style but obviously lacking the centuries of experience that the Grand Master possessed. And as a true master of Niman he could switch between various Forms on a whim, flipping (literally) from a stonewall Soresu defence to a sudden Ataru frenzied counter attack with some Makashi footwork thrown in.
Eagerly awaiting your next versus video 😃
Well. Agree to disagree. I think that yoda shouldn't have outgrown the use of it, but I do think he should have use the force as a weapon more. Either blindsiding or catching enemies offguard and using his lightsaber as a supplement, as a niman-soresu-makashi hybrid or mix of his style
Yoda had only two engagements where the outcome of the fight truly mattered, and he failed both times.
He couldn't stop Dooku in ATOC and he couldn't stop Palpatine in ROTS. Yeah, he's hella overrated. Powerful sure, but far from the near deity status people give him.
He was even wrong about it being a mistake for Luke to go to Bespin in ESB.
Excellent observation. I'm always glad to see someone who realises Yoda was wrong about Luke going to Bespin.
@@Wright805 It's easy to make that claim in retrospect, but neither Yoda nor Luke had any way of knowing that Luke would would be pushed to a ledge, throw himself off it rather than accept Vader, get sucked into a shaft that left him dangling from a cable outside of Cloud City, then get picked up by his friends after Leia sensed him in danger and directed the Falcon to his location.
In that sense, Luke was *extraordinarily* fortunate that he didn't get carbon frozen, beaten down by Vader, and that his choice of "death before Dark Side" didn't actually end up in his death.
Yoda isn't perfect, but he can clearly see that Luke is gambling *everything* on being able to... Just find some way to make it work.
Kazdan Paratus arguably overcame the limitations of his stature better than Yoda. And he's insane. Let that sink in.
Paratus created his mechanical arms during the Clone Wars, _before_ he went insane.
@@InSanic13 Dude was always nutty and had a major inferiority complex even then. The Great Jedi Purge just cracked the shell off the nut. Regardless, he still overcame the limitations of his stature better than Yoda.
“martial mastery” permits “flashiness”. In fact, some disciplines purposely emphasize various flurries, flourishes, and other acrobatics which are meant to distract and intimidate opponents.
In fact, in a real swordfight, a much smaller opponent would have to resort to their mobility and yes, perhaps limited acrobatics, to take down an opponent with much larger reach and strength.
So while your critique of Yoda is certainly not something I dismiss, that particular statement was simply wrong if taken as an absolute statement.
I agree with most of this but I just can't think of any other classical form that would allow him to be successful. Even with a duel phase blade he'd still need Ataru to get him far enough into the fight to catch somebody flat-footed with it. As for why he fought outside Dooku's reach but inside Sidious', that's a simple matter of he couldn't and he could. Respectively. Sidious' area control was looser than Dooku's. Full stop. The precision and tight defense of Makashi is incompatible with the power blows that Sidious used, leaving space for Yoda to operate inside Sidious' guard that didn't exist inside Dooku's.
Question: Is mastery of the Force only measured by one's combat viability? For example, Just because Cao Cen Darach can beat Yoda in a 1 on 1 fight, does that mean Cao Cen has mastered the Force more than Yoda? Or does that mean he's better at fighting? I'm using these 2 as an example, this isn't to say one clearly beats the other (though one could argue for either side if they wanted to)
No. Mastery of the Force is with true versatility in all areas, eg. Grandmaster Luke Skywalker. You balance your options in combat and don't dedicate yourself to one area. You explore all areas and bring them to the highest level, not just combat in general
Yoda even by TPM Era in Legends was never able to be bested by anybody with a blade in the order not even Dooku who at the time was the ultimate form two user of all time nor Mace who at that point was the highest form seven user of all time with, partially, or without Vaapad it either ended with Mace/Dooku tying with Yoda or being slightly beneath him in there sparring matches by TPM Yoda, Dooku, And Mace were likely equals with a blade in the order with Plo Koon being a sligtly below them yeah.
Then the last jedi came and boy did it fuck Yoda up
The phrase “Then the last Jedi came” can describe most of the problems with Disney cannon and Star Wars.
Yodas so good because of the simplicity of his technique his speed is very underated
I would love to see Yoda as a Light Side Vader.
Hope we can see a Darth Kryat vs Exar Kun one day.
TLDR; Yoda is not perfect, but I take issue with you saying he was arrogant or thoughtless in his approach.
Ultimately, whilst it's true Yoda isn't perfect, it is also true that this is mainly because he never WANTED to fight perfectly. He's a teacher not a fighter and so when he fights, like obi-wan, he fights to crush an opponent quickly. Unlike Obi-wan, he's never been beaten, so he relies on a method that, while flawed, has never failed him.
I also take issue with your idea of mastery always equating to minimalistic style. Its true that this is often true, but not always. As a swordsman myself, a shock assault is a good card to pull, and if it always wins, why not simply refine it? Don't fix whats not broken is a saying for a reason.
I also think you underestimate the extent to which Yoda was stagnant. He did after all have a mastery of soresu as you required, he just didn't focus on it. Rather, like Exar Kun and Malak I see his offensive style as a calculated risk. Justified arrogance is no arrogance at all, and to borrow a form v maxim, Yoda brought peace through superior firepower in line with Jedi philosophical if not as orthodox as others. The honest practicality of Yodas style is that it requires both comparable force power and a focus on defence to even compete- this makes it the bane of sith swordsmen drunk on the darkside, exactly who Yoda wants to fight. In playing on their known attributes, I feel Yoda proves himself not simply ignorantly coasting, but rather... outdated / specialised.
After all, if one only wants to fight darksiders, why retool when you can double down?
Personally now I like it even more now, it really characterizes the Jedi and their fall all the better. Yeah, he probably could’ve been more efficient hell, Dooku probably had some ideas on how he could better himself, but who was gonna tell a 900 year old space wizard with maxed out spell slots what to do? So what do you do in that situation, you just kinda let it be, and then the problem festers, and you lose.
Yoda could've been a great Form 6 Niman master instead. Also, please do a video about 'Why Palpatine isn't great either'.
Palpatine isn't great? Did you see his fight with maul and savage?
@@spongederp160 It's not like far weaker force user(Kenobi) couldn't do the same.
I remember seeing an in depth video years ago breaking down Palpatine. They basically said he was more of a glass cannon.
kinda disagreed. Yoda...on lightsaber styles....sorry but considering his size, no other fighting style would have fit him. And he pretty much overcame all weaknesses of ataru. This in the end is still the guy that went up against sidious. Also he did master all typical light side force powers.
Thinking about it, we do not know if yoda species are flexible by nature...instead of strong...without the force aid.
If this latter would be the case, again, what other tactic could he trow at it ?
Not to mention Jensaarai's argument about Yoda "Burning out fast" during long fights because of his chosen Ataru style really only applies to Yoda fighting against opponents of equal or greater skill for long periods. We see Yoda being able to fight in long term battles against tons of weaker droids for a long long time and not getting tired out.
Damn! Thought the sith virus got you! Glad to see your still alive and kicking!
I respect you going with the greater distance more analytics. DO enjoy your thoughts always.
a thing to consider though.
Before the Clone Wars, is it known if Yoda still went on Missions and the like still? the entire reason he still uses Ataru as a elder Master with the issues of burning form both ends is because he is essentially a retired 800 year old Jedi Master forced back into war footing. he does not have TIME to rework his own abilities to be the most optimal for the very rare Fights against super powered SIth Lords he might never run into, he has to be useful on the battlefield AGAIN.
so as Ataru with its great focus on MOBILITY and Agility is VITAL. Not Ideal, but sufficient for his situation.
real talk here Mobility might have been his highest priority because him being clever and skilled Makashi makes him a small vulnerable target for the greater threats.
Yoda to be blunt is not a perfectly viable Combatant considering his Age and size.
still I do enjoy the reminders that NO ONE is invincible, such as your great video as a group back in the day about how Palaptine is not invincible.
So! good fun. thank you for sharing your thoughts. Very Valid evenw ith the fact that it is NOT Yodas highest priority not inclination.
I think Ataru is the best and most practical form for someone like Yoda to use, because of his size. On your point of reworking his abilities, he probably could have, as he mastered every form. But I think he stayed with Ataru, because, as I said, it's the best form that suits his size and stature.
*Grabs the Mic*
Neither was Qui Gon
It is good to see you Again. Another Amazing Video 👍
Can this be? Has he escaped Evannova95's basement to grace us with another nerdrage rant?
Hot take
Yoda shouldn't be the grandmaster rather a noteworthy instructor who may or amy not be on the council. Most roles besides his of grandmaster would be unchanged so things like his clone wars appearances like ambush would be unchanged. This also puts him not as guilty for the destruction of the order
How
Side note mace would be the grandmaster
I've been looking forward to this
7:06 That Yoda isn't as efficient as he could be is not a sign of poor writing to me, which it seems you take it to be. Rather, it is a sign that yoda was written to be a flawed character that is only perceived as unflawed on a surface level analysis. The things you said like his use of ataru as a sign of arrogance and his by-the-book stagnant approach to lightsaber combat being a result of his overwhelming power in the force which didn't incentivize him to be physically efficient makes for a much better written character in my eyes. I prefer that Yoda is flawed as opposed to being perfect.
I dunno I think the fact yoda ran away after his fight with sidious shows he clearly knew and understood his limitations.
No. He ran because he knew he could not kill Sidious. he exhausted himself using most of his force reserves to fight sidious and sidious matched him in force power
@Lappland Kun so you're arguing he thought sidious was beyond his ability to beat and recognizing that he retreated so he could continue the fight? Sure seems like a textbook example of someone recognizing their limitations to me...
@Lappland Kun I'd also say the same apples to sidious which is why he made zero attempt to chase him down and kill him...
I love it!
Agree with everything you said except one thing, that yoda it the undisputed master of ataru.
Hes not. He never shows himself to be a master martial artist in the movies and he never described as one would be in the other non visual media. His skills are basic and fundamental. The only reason hes a threat to anyone is his speed and force enhancement. He has the same issue that palpatine has. When you are faster you dont need to be better.
Pit yoda against (almost) any other saberist and take force enhancement out of the picture for both. Yodas only practical form would be soresu. Even if you allow yoda perfect physical health he cant employ any other form realistically. No one ever mentions anything about about yodas footwork, or clever blade plays, or anything that might be a hallmark of a master martial artist. Only his speed and general effectiveness is praised.
I would suggest qui gon denonstrated a vastly greater magnitude of skill with ataru, ditto ven zallow, ditto ashoka tano(barely) ditto shaak ti.
Yodas progressed practical skill with ataru was stunted. Held back by his stature and age, his tactics, and his overwhelming power in force enhancement.
Yodas not a great combatant, hes a teacher and you know what they say about those who cant do.
Also, have we ever seen yoda win a lightsaber fight through bladed skill? No?
Thought not.
Considering the likes of dooku couldn’t defeat him and while not seen in the movie yoda did disarm sidious of his lightsaber hence why we see him in the next return of him he’s using his force abilities against yoda rather than his lightsaber, underestimating yodas skills wouldn’t be good.
@@MusicFan752 yoda didnt defeat dooku in aotc or in thier fight on vjun in dark rendezvous. Dooku fled the fight in both because he sensed yodas allies were about to arrive and he couldnt take yoda and all of them as well.
Yes yoda did disarm sideous. And so what? Sideous is not a great martial artist either. Hes far inferior in skill to yoda. Sideous and yoda are the same. Niether likes lightsaber combat passionately, their prowess comes mainly from thier speed. Take the best fencer in the world and put them up against a casual fencer who can move 2x as fast and the casual will probably win.
It doesnt matter that they arent highly developed martial artists, because they both cheat with thier power in the force. If they had less power they wouldnt get away with it.
Thats why less powerful jedi who are still skilled and defeat more powerful opponents are better martial artists. Like scout from dark rendezvous. The force was weak in her but she beat all the other padawans in her class because she was motivated and actually put in the work. She didnt have the cheat of force powers.
Whats more impressive hauling a ton of bricks? a semi trailer, or a little four wheeler with just enough to get the job done?
@@mattmaughan6871 I said dooku couldn't defeat Yoda not Yoda defeated dooku. And yes I'm aware that sidious isnt the best duelist either and prefers a lightsaber to spite the jedi. That said I still stick with what I say about not underestimating them especially Yoda. Yes hes not invincible or the greatest duelist out there either but at the same time I'm not gonna look down on his capabilities as he's still skilled in what he can do and can still be a threat to most opponents. Thats where I'm at on all this, not putting him on a pedestal, but not treating him like hes dirt.
It would look much better if he would strike at Dooku's legs.
You sound more like a sith, when you are talking about the failures of the jedi
These days every youtuber talks about the failures of the jedi so i’m use to it.
In an old questionnaire he preferred the sith over the Jedi, so not inaccurate.
Interesting... I see what you see, but it bothers me less than you, because the way I see it, the character had to be that way. Like I said in my comments on your older video on this, his greatest wasn't enough, and it had to be that way, or there would be no story, no fall of the Jedi Order, no reason for them to fall, and no need for Luke Skywalker to come along and re-establish it. I think the shortcomings and weak points are definitely there, but I also think they need to be. Yoda was the greatest, for his time, but (as you say) that doesn't make him perfect.
Everything you say about Yoda could be said of the Jedi in that era, on the whole, and it could be said that's why they had to fall. The ignorance of his own limitations, the coasting along for centuries... that validates the Sith both in the sense that the reasoning behind their planning and plotting behind-the-scenes for a thousand years achieved the desired effect, and in a sense that their conclusions about where Jedi philosophy would ultimately lead, to corruption, complacency, and rot, was absolutely dead-on.
Well, he is a better swordsman than Palpatine.
How does a force user being killed by a lightsaber prove anything. Lightsaber users get bodied by the force and lightsabers. I mean I can point to General Grevious and say "This guy is a fool for approaching Jedi with no force abilities" which obviously isn't a true statement. I just think you are cherry picking examples is all.
You're using yourself a false equivalence. A pure Force user is, by default, at a disadvantage and unarmed. And to use one's powers, they must concentrate. HARD. Which leaves them exposed to being blindsided. Hence why C'baoth and Fay died the way they died.
its not cherry picking its a constant pattern, and its especially telling when those that discarded their lightsaders for force only got bodied by people way beneath their level. to rely solely on the force is arrogance and deliberately handy capping themselves is what he was getting at.
and your Grievous example doesn't really work cause his kill defeat ratio far exceeds those who don't use lightsabers facing a person that does
and lightsaber users are defeated by a people using both the force and a lightsaber. the final blow is irrelevant cause without the lightsaber it is very unlikely they would have reached that point to even begin with and would have changed the dynamic of the fight entirely if they never had one. best example is Zanna is a master wizard but if she didn't have her saber to shield herself she would have dead in several if not all her fights
@@mike16apha16 I think you overlook that I already stated that the Grevious thing is a bad example. I am stating literally the exact same claim as Jen did but reversed and showed how ridiculous it sounds. I.E. Obviously a top tier lightsaber user can survive without the force, and thus I have no reason to believe a force user can’t be successful without a lightsaber. That’s why
So yeah it is cherry picking when you pick 2 examples. And those two examples destroy your last point when you claim it’s unlikely solo force users could survive yet even those two examples rose to be especially powerful individuals. My whole point being that at a high enough level beings who only have lightsaber skills and beings who only have force abilities should be on the same level and Jen makes zero sense by somehow trying to downplay solo force users.
@@tnntaronewsnetwork4514
>My whole point being that at a high enough level beings who only have lightsaber skills and beings who only have force abilities should be on the same level
that's a nice theory, but seriously lacks proof. mara jade and Ventress where total amateurs yet bodied 2 force only users that where masters well above their level. if its cherry picking find a counter example. and if the person uses a lightsaber but gets the win with the force they are disqualified as final hits don't count. cause it is doubtful they would have lasted to the point of victory without a saber. Grievous is also disqualified as we are talking about force users specifically handicapping themselves vs other force users for not using one. though i might add only time he could even remotely count against Grievous was when Mace crushed him in 2003 show, but he wouldn't have been able to do that if he didn't survive their first encounter that happened before that which he most certainly needed his lightsaber to hold out in
You can’t discount Grevious. He’s literally the poster child for lightsaber Master with no force abilities. So he stays. And I’m fine with you challenging me for evidence but you literally just called Ventress “a total amateur” the same Ventress who was a consistent rival for Anakin and Kenobi, the same Ventress who could reanimate the dead, the Same Ventress who was swapping hands with literal Mace Windu is fodder Level to you? There’s your evidence.
As for her “bodying” our force based friend. Jedi Master Fay (the one who only used the force) Literally used the voice to stab Ventress in the neck and shoulder then proved her mind before a Ventress fell unconscious. Fay died because Durga was a menace and a third party in the fight and Ventress got in a cheap back stab. So it wasn’t a direct combat win. So there goes half of your arguments. Don’t believe me? It’s all on Wookiepedia my man.
Also it goes to show how you try to manipulate what I can use by banishing Grevious. He literally gets actually bodied by Windu and then has to run away. You know what that and Fey beating Ventress when they fought head to head? It shows me lightsaber only force weak opponents and force only lightsaber weak opponents can thrash the trash beneath their tier but can be shut down by masters of the respective disciplines. I already proved Ventress is literally mid-high council level and not fodder and she still had to take Fey by surprise after getting immediately shut down by her.
Ithink you still have to understand that Yoda is like 2 feet tall him specializing in makashi and or soresu would more than like be just as ineffective! He uses ataru for reach and leverage and thanks to his power in the force can keep with the acrobatics needed for the form. Form 4 is a very aggressive form and we have seen this. I also disagree on the point that you think that him practicing ataru goes against Jedi philosophy when yoda is usually always wanting to de-escalate the situation (save the fight with Sidious). Also the fight with Dooku i take that him not wanting to strike and kill his former student and friend vs when he fought Sidious there was the clear intention to kill because of the fate of galaxy and all.