This works EXCEPTIONALLY well for natural hazards, like the fire swamp example. It makes SENSE that the hazards near the boundaries of an environment won't be as dangerous as they would be further in. Like climbing an icy mountain, you're not going to freeze to death the moment you set foot on the mountain... Near the bottom, you may encounter some slippery surfaces or some low visibility, but nothing too bad. As you climb, though, those slick surfaces become more frequent and harder to deal with, while the snow and wind might heavily obscure the way ahead. Not to mention that, if (or when!) you DO fall... That fall only gets higher and higher as you progress! Then, only when you get to the absolute peak, do you start finding those statuesque flash-frozen adventurers who came before you...
Actually, it works well for normal dungeons too. Given how hit points work, what will kill a normal person will not kill your seasoned adventurer. It takes an extravagant trap to kill more powerful entities - and you probably can't afford to put super extravagant traps everywhere! The super deadly traps are likely the last resort, deepest in, while the early parts of the dungeon feature more frequent yet less deadly traps meant to off lesser bandits.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 Oh no, I absolutely agree, all I meant is that with naturally-occurring hazards, it's far more intuitive :) I just felt that the natural stuff is what helped it click for me, but that angle only got a very brief mention in the video, so I wanted to highlight that way of thinking for others :)
@@CSmyth- True that! It's a good comment - I kind of wanted to do the same but for normal dungeon traps, since a lot of people don't really take advantage of the narrative meaning you can derive from people being more durable than giants!
Well those are some great ideas. I had heard of this being used in videogames but never thought ot applying it to my dungeons. Thanks for the inspiration! also, red luigi lol
This past weekend I ran out of time preparing for one of my sessions so instead of having a traditional session with combat I had my players trying to avoid 2 Udaaks in a forest , at night , in a snowstorm. It helped that I use Foundry and was having certain sound effects play at different times.
Dark Souls comes to mind as a similar example in how it handles this kind of stuff. Just to pick one example, when you first enter the area with the ghosts, you have to cross a certain bridge to get there. On that bridge are 5 uses of the item that you need to fight ghosts. After that, the first ghost you encounter is by itself, in a very open space, where it is easy to outmaneuver it or run away. Further up there are two ghosts. Then there is a ghost that is hiding inside a wall (you can see it's weapon clipping through the wall), but even if it gets you, recovery and escape is relatively easy as there's only the one. After that, there are halls with many ghosts including in the walls that will try to surround you. Here the game give you the tool, the introduction, and a gentle escalation into its challenge.
If you want something that is like a "beware of traps" sign: Use NPCs for that. Like that old guy with a hookhand in the village close to the dungeon could tell them to NOT TOUCH THE RED TILES on the wall, as that's how he lost his hand. Of course that means the players need to talk to your NPCs but that's something you want them to do and you can give those informations out as a reward for doing so.
There's a lot of games that use this sort of design. Megaman and Zelda game are also two big ones. But one game that does it really well is Bioshock. In Bioshock, the first enemy in a fight will always miss theirs first shot, and the first trap in an area will alreaft be sprung. This allows the player to quickly assess the danger ahead without taking cheap damage.
I almost did a Super Mario Bros based one-shot first my first time DMing. I told my players that the boss was gonna be one of those tortle, but I don't think they caught on. Also if you want to make bowser as a bbeg, I'd suggest using a tortle, make his size large, give him the ability to cast fireball, and give him seemingly unlimited throwing axes. You should also make him fire resistant. If you want him to have a second phase, make him come back to life in a giant skeletal form.
As an alternative to not making the initial traps deadly... make them so they were deadly at one time, but with people dying in them and/or all the adventurer's dealing with them (before they die) they may not be fully functional at this point. That first trap might have the spikes all broken at this point, or the timed protruding spikes might be wedged by the previous people who passed this version, but not the one further in. This might also train the party on possible ways to deal with the trap, provided the have the appropriate tools or skills.
Master The Dungeon, Do a video on what Resident Evil, and Silent Hill can teach us about dungeon design, incorporating horror into DND. What if you actually want to make your players paranoid?
If you are diving into video game dungeons can we talk about skyrim and the amazing dungeons, puzzles, and overall layout of dungeons like the dungeons were what made that game fun.
However, sometimes you want a monster that’s more of an obstacle than a fight. A giant golem that follows an extremely predictable pattern could make sense.
what i would say is don't get bogged down in a third element, I didn't quite understand the introduction of a timing platform. it's something that doesn't really need building up for the player since they will figure out the means to cross it on first encounter. For Mario that is a spike in difficulty, but for D&D, "I jump the platform" becomes "I wait for the platforms to come close and jump". I guess I'm not totally convinced mario is a very good example for D&D since skill is mostly abstracted through dice rolls and all that's really up to "you" is lateral thinking and player alertness and that these lessons are probably a bit better taught in Monkey Island or Zelda
I just made three D100 list to roll against for gift boxes for my own campaign last month for a Mario bros themed detour my party is going to be taking! A d4 randomly determines the top gift in the boxes and then a d100 to determine outcome.. i.e. flower mushroom etc.. one list has star at 100 another a leaf for the racoons tail one has a music box and the last a frog suit... Mechanically if they get a flower they can cast a super nerfed fireball 1d6+Prof mod as their action and bonus action for 1 minute.. the mushroom cast enlarge on them giving them adv to their attack but also gives attackers adv against them for attacks.. the leaf gives them levitate for 1 min. The star grants immunity to all damage for 1 minute the frog suit is an actual item they can keep that let's them breathe underwater and gives them a swim speed equal to their speed. Music Box will cast sleep on two targets within a 10ft range for disabling hammer bros! The d100 is a weighted list so not a total 100 possible options.. 1.. 1 coin 2 - 50 10 coins 51-85 mushroom.. 86-99 flower .. 100 star/leaf/frog suit/music box.. coins are copper pieces...
Evil dungeon lich: I should put lots of traps at the start of my dungeon that will help those pesky adventurers beat my traps later on. The flaw in your philosophy.
A false pit trap: A hole in the ground that the players can see but if they step into it, its real ground. A false-false pit trap: A hole in the ground that the players can see but if they step into it, its a real pit trap.
I've been applying this bit of game design from Game Maker's Toolkit to ttrpgs for years. It works really well, but thinking of it exclusively in terms of traps and hazards is far too limiting. Applying this to enemy types, especially ones that present new mechanics, is probably the best use of this kind of pacing. The introduction of a type of trap, a puzzle element, or a second enemy type makes a good twist for the 3rd stage. This progression can also, and I think should, be applied across sections of the entire campaign. A lot of folks can have a lot of trouble wrapping their heads social encounters, mysteries, or new styles of combat encounters for example, and it's very helpful to introduce 'new' concepts like this in a similar progression where the first time they're dealing with it is in a low-stakes context that has little punishment for failure, then ramp it up and add on complicating elements in future arcs.
Something I’ve done with a very gritty dungeon was have the first one be a spike pit trap, but it had been used so often part of the pit cover was broken and the first section had been so heavily filled with bodies of people and unlucky animals that wandered in that the spikes were covered over in most places with bodies that had mysteriously not rotted. The first trap WAS deadly, but it no longer had the same danger for the run the players were making.
Great video!👍 Could you guys do a video on using *Resident Evil* in DnD, with the survival-horror/puzzle-solving mechanics the RE games are famous for?
For this style of video of looking at video games, I’d say that you could look into Dark Souls Series for Dungeon Layout design (not the difficulty), since I feel that if transferred over DnD they’d make excellent dungeons with a few tweaks, specially the integration of hidden paths, and looping back the dungeons
Seeing this was a shock because I am plotting to build a campaign around a Super Mario 64 style hub where you are transported to pocket dimensions by finding portals hidden among the rooms of a castle. XD Technically not the same deal as it is here, but I can absolutely use the lessons learned here to help me.
Here's a great excuse for the dungeons getting harder as you go in: The builder or master of the dungeon built from the inside out. More threatening and dangerous traps were cause they had a budget but weren't thinking about it. So they could line those pit traps with spikes or afford the vat of acid below the illusionary steps. As they expand though, they found the couldn't afford the spikes or acid any more, or the labor to make those "bottomless pits" (Materials for raising undead costs money, yo). And resetting them costs money too! So the dungeon boss puts a big ol' "Danger: Keep out!" sign in front after running out of money. Not cause he doesn't want people to die, but cause he doesn't have the money to reset the traps.
I love the idea that you don’t want to make all your traps deadly if you were designing a dungeon. You don’t want bodies to pile up, and you DO want people to run out of your dungeon frightened and to spread the word about how horrible and scary your dungeon is.
That illusionary floor tile introduction makes me think of the party rogue finding some old lost pocket junk from the guards during its days as a living dungeon. Because given the provided visuals, you easily drop a coin and not see where it landed. Of course it could also encourage your players to fall for the more dangerous versions of the trap later on, so if you plan on including that don’t be a jerk. By the way, I love that thumbnail.
I recently discovered your videos and have been bindging on them. I "recently" started DnD about 6 months ago still in my first campaign I am just a player but I'd like to alternate with my DM so they can actually play since they were the designated "forever DM". I worry about my lack of creativity and difficulty thinking on the spot so watching your videos gives me a lot of bases to cover to make an immersive and allows me to think of all the possibilities when creating a campaign.
I did this either instinctively or on accident in my most recent dungeon. The map is a side-view instead of the usual top down (I told my players "You're playing Terraria now, not Zelda" :D ) and they have some platforms to jump, bridge, or zipline across, which they did very easily, but then there's a cascading sandfall (it's like a waterfall, but instead of water, sand) that makes casual navigation of platforms a lot more complicated.
Here's some great videos by GameMakers ToolKit that explain more deeply the level design philosophy for Mario levels: - Super Mario 3D World's 4 Step Level Design, ruclips.net/video/dBmIkEvEBtA/видео.html - Analysing Mario to Master Super Mario Maker, ruclips.net/video/e0c5Le1vGp4/видео.html - How to Make Your First Super Mario Maker 2 Level, ruclips.net/video/Vwj3On5o58U/видео.html I've implemented the broad idea of little by little showcasing a certain mechanic or enemy by remembering that the dungeon doesn't always has to begin at the entrance of the dungeon. So, on the way to the dungeon, the party will learn some basic mechanics. Some examples: - Since other adventurers have already come here, and creature live here already, there's always gonna be evidence of that. There's already skeletons at the bottom of the pitfall, so players know the consequences. If they spy for a while, they're gonna see how the creatures that live here bypass the challenge. This part I try to make it more interesting by having the creature bypass the challenge in a way the party can't do it as easily as the creature (maybe due to a biological difference), or they only get to see the first part, not the second. - If the dungeon is gonna feature some flooded sections where they'll have to swim or take a boat, I present that challenge at its most basic before even entering the dungeon. So, when they get to the dungeon, they already know what to do and don't have to learn the mechanic right there. But in the dungeon you're gonna ramp up the difficulty a little, maybe the water is full of creatures that are gonna attack, or they have a time constraint. - I like having a theme to the adventure, so I look at d100 random tables for environments and check the options and choose those that fit the theme better. Maybe the dungeon is in a swamp, so they're gonna find bullywugs inside. While they're making their way to the dungeon, they're gonna find some bullywug patrols, that way they're gonna learn about the bullywugs and their abilities. The next encounter the bullywugs are gonna be more organised, and I'll also include some enemy roles from 4e. I'll also look for other creatures that pair up well with bullywugs, to make the encounter more challenging. - I intertwine the introduction of new creatures and mechanics, so it doesn't feel like they're going in a steady incline. Instead, first I introduce an element, 1, then A, then 2, then !, then B, then 3, then ?, etc. This way the increase in difficulty doesn't feel like always going up, but more like going up and down. Yes, this takes more time to prep, but I prefer doing this to make it more fun, instead of writing tons of lore :v
early megaman games set a gold standard for introducing challenges to a player without saying a single word. Sequelitus did a terrific video on this several years ago. But yeah, I agree 100% with giving players "tells" to show them what's ahead of them.
Nothing is idiot proof, players will try to brute force something stupid like clueless people ripping wires out of the walls from an escape room or taking the door off the hinge because they had to pull it open instead of pushing it. Allow options for weird shit to happen. On the other spectrum you can have players so big brained they carry a bag of holding filled with 300 gallons of water to fill up a spike trap so they could just swim across it. Always keep your players collective intelligence in mind. Even the best designed level will stump the most smoothbrained people
I’m watching your channel newest to oldest. I just ran across the October channel update and I wanted to let you know I’m enjoying the channel, material and animation.
Mario levels, in my opinion, make for good trial dungeons. Dungeons that aren't meant to deadly or deterants, but rather as tests of wit and such. Perhaps the local god pf games trials and sports decides theyd like to watch the players try at a gauntlet of traps trials and monsters, this idiology of design could easily be used in this type of scenario to great effect.
You also can literally have a sign that says "Beware of traps", if you want the players to contemplate why the dungeon exists in the first place, or if the players are the ones who are supposed to install the signs for future travelers.
I did this in one of my old old campaigns a long time ago. Essentially it was like a "Tutorial" Dungeon for the players as a "Primer" for the classes and skills they used so they had a better understanding how to use them and take advantage of those skills and abilities.
It's fun telegraphing to players. They don't feel slighted or cheated when that complexity bumps up. They tend to think it a worthy challenge. Sometimes, I do this well. Other times, well... I do get called a mean DM every now and again. lol I always apologize, though!
Don't underestimate your mobility options. Making a character to run, climb, and jump can be fun and exciting! Funny how people say they're useless but that flight's overpowered.
@@girf4233 I believe more specifically it is a reference to Game Grumps, a RUclips let's play channel, where one of the players playing the Mario game exaggeratingly shouted as an impression of Mario by saying the quoted line above.
@@MrTailson1 actually I recently started playing warhammer which features an the “Orks” who have an ability called “Ere we go” where they run at people. But whenever I do it and say it in the Mario voice. 😂
For combat encounters include both a variety of enemies and scenarios. Then mix and match them. For example Encounter 1: Weak little goblins Encounter 2: Weak little goblins + elite hobgoblins Encounter 3: Weak little goblin ambush while the players deal with a booby trap Encounter 4: Elite hobgoblins attack from behind cover attop a tower. Encounter 5: Elite hobgoblins guard elite goblin Start by introducing your primary enemies and giving a general feel what they are about. Then introduce a stronger enemy type and establish the goblins as their minions. Third showcase the strength of both enemy types in situations that amplify their natural strengths. Lastly we subvert and play around with earlier expectations. Using just 2 enemy types with minor variations we have a full dungeon with very different combat encounters and a scaling difficulty curve.
Would love to see a follow-up episode on this as applied to combat, which you glossed over - Mario games also apply this to their enemies, by treating them as hazards that can be combined in interesting ways. The classic is by mixing melee and ranged enemies; for example, in a crypt dungeon players could encounter skeleton archers that can be avoided entirely by taking cover, or skeleton guards that charge the players but can be trapped or led in circles after they lock on to a character. Then, when both enemies are encountered together, the party must juggle keeping the guards away while not making themselves easy targets for the archers. (Mario games do this with Koopas, which you jump over, and Hammer Throwers, which mess up your jump timing while staying away from you.)
this is great in regards to traps and certain mechanics! another thing that Mario does "well" that can be thought of is alternate pathing. sometimes invisible blocks you might find by mistake build a staircase, sometimes you really just have to KNOW the secret trick, and sometimes previously mundane or minor points of interaction are loaded with a greater suprise (like a hungry plant's warp pipe), or maybe you need to hold onto a specific powerup from earlier to unlock a passage.
It works fine for combat encounters too. Take a classic cave of goblins or kobolds. Guarding the entrence you could have 2d4 of basic grunt goblins or kobolds, further in is the next encounter with a shaman, priest or other type of fitting support to enhance the base grunts combat style. It's repeatable too since a goblin caster is more likely to aid with fiery nuke spells while a kobold might favor area denial spells to help his pack. An apprentice necromancer left behind to tend to the undead is likely to favor debuffs and ailments, a cult would have some buff spell clerics if they see themselves as good or could favor illusions as support if they are mystics with holy secrets to protect and so on. Slowly building up faction identity by adding on to their prefered type pf tactics by advancing their NPC or monster roster, battleground preference (layouts, open vs closed, lighting conditions, cover use, difficult terrain use, trap style, group size preference, mount or machine use and so on) all help build up to some very interesting and unique (for the game) encounters. Not every group will use every type of tactic but that means two things. Repeats against a group or type of enemy allows for higher base complexity and new groups will rock the status quo to spice things up. The players learn what to expect when they hear the sounds of hooves and heavily armed men in the colors of the order of the silver goblet emerge from the alley. Suddenly it makes sense that the street is cleared of vagons and stalls, the knights prefer open straights for their deadly ride by attacks. Had it instead been hooded men with curved daggers stepping out the players might have scrambled for perception checks as the assassins of the hand of Furl Zan would not have shown themselves if the party wasn't already in the middle of their minefield of poisoned traps. The horse sounds in this case being safely disregarded as just being regular city background noise from the next street over.
I was curious of what you meant by this but yeah I do recall this about Super Mario game design principles but I never thought of adding them to D&D. This will be useful in the future whenever I try to run a D&D Mario homebrew again
Oh, man, now I got the idea for a dungeon corridor with pits covered by illusions. Specifically, illusions that are only visible in light - creatures with darkvision/infravision see the heat signature of the actual floor, not the illusory bits of floor that isn't actually there... Maybe with a small tell, like the torch-carrying adventurers' feet sinking a fraction of an inch into the stone floor, because the illusory floor is placed ever so slightly above the real floor to cover the whole corridor...
Actually, the topic starting at 4:14 is even more poignant when you consider the real implications of hit points. With how hit points work, what may kill a normal person won't kill a hardened adventurer. To kill a seasoned veteran, you'll need a much more extravagant trap - the kind of trap you can't exactly afford to put everywhere! So the normal bandits will get cleaned up by the typical spike pits, but the final trap meant for the most hardy adventurers might just collapse the entire dungeon on top of them!
I disagree with this technique not working with dungeon monsters: leaving evidence of monsters in the dungeon before they're encountered gives the PCs a heads up on what's ahead, especially if they've got Rangers or Fighters in the party who lean into monster knowledge. You can also scale fights: the first time they find a [insert monster here], it doesn't want to fight and only fights for a round or two before running off. The next time it's encountered it's angry and cornered and much more likely to fight to the death, or it's gone to get help, or it's retreated to a prepared position with traps to even the odds against the PCs. Same dungeon design philosophy, different application.
Idea: the first trap in a dungeon was initially meant to be just as fatal, but over decades has been bogged down by so many corpses that it's practically a non-problem. Like an over worked sawblade trap that's chewed through so many adventurers that it's teeth have been chipped and worn away, and maybe doesn't even spin all that fast anymore.
I think another point in favor of Mario-esque design is that Mario levels usually tend to revolve around an idea. Like one level is all about Bullet Bills or all about swinging platforms. Keep ideas streamlined and focused.
I do a similar thing for custom abilities I give my monsters. This helps the players not feel as of the bosses side kicks have an overpowered advantage, just show it before but weaker🙂
If you really think about it, a dungeon should be set up to keep people out, not kill them. So, a "warning shot" type trap right at the beginning makes a lot of sense. Something designed to wound not create corpses. Heck an actual warning sign makes sense.
With monsters, this works great for teaching unusual weak points. Your players first encounter some little monsters and you include a way for them to understand that, say, they're really tough but the crystal on its back is a weak point and if you shatter that, the monster dies. Then you ramp it up and give them a big melee with a bunch of these guys to hammer home the lesson, where things go way easier if they actually work to expose and target those weak points. Then you bring in the big momma monster and you can trust that they've actually figured out how this fight works.
I'm sure others have mentioned this, but you should also check out the way that Mega Man levels are designed to give you just enough time to see the enemy attack pattern in action before you can dive into it.
One useful tool is incorporating monster encounters and environmental hazards together. What might be a hazardous obstacle in one context could be a combat tool or even an escape route in other contexts.
I HAVE A GAME IN AN HOUR WHY AM I SEEING A MARIO DUNGEON! I NEED TO STEAL IDEAS FROM OTHER VIDEOS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA wait i can use this ohhhhh OHHHHH MAMA MIA!!!
Finally got through all the videos on the channel. Absolutely love this channel (Your illustrator is hilarious by the way!!) The channel seems to be very trap oriented. Any other future series?
Another simple story-based application of this principle could be a gnome illusionist engineer who has taken up residence in a cavern and has implemented several traps to guard his "territory" while gradually delving deeper and improving upon his previous designs as he goes.
"Teach me your wisdom, Red Luigi!" -A wizard
Thay Red Wizard.
What about his brother, green mario
If Red Luigi replies, you become a warlock
This works EXCEPTIONALLY well for natural hazards, like the fire swamp example. It makes SENSE that the hazards near the boundaries of an environment won't be as dangerous as they would be further in. Like climbing an icy mountain, you're not going to freeze to death the moment you set foot on the mountain... Near the bottom, you may encounter some slippery surfaces or some low visibility, but nothing too bad. As you climb, though, those slick surfaces become more frequent and harder to deal with, while the snow and wind might heavily obscure the way ahead. Not to mention that, if (or when!) you DO fall... That fall only gets higher and higher as you progress! Then, only when you get to the absolute peak, do you start finding those statuesque flash-frozen adventurers who came before you...
Actually, it works well for normal dungeons too. Given how hit points work, what will kill a normal person will not kill your seasoned adventurer. It takes an extravagant trap to kill more powerful entities - and you probably can't afford to put super extravagant traps everywhere! The super deadly traps are likely the last resort, deepest in, while the early parts of the dungeon feature more frequent yet less deadly traps meant to off lesser bandits.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 Oh no, I absolutely agree, all I meant is that with naturally-occurring hazards, it's far more intuitive :) I just felt that the natural stuff is what helped it click for me, but that angle only got a very brief mention in the video, so I wanted to highlight that way of thinking for others :)
@@CSmyth- True that! It's a good comment - I kind of wanted to do the same but for normal dungeon traps, since a lot of people don't really take advantage of the narrative meaning you can derive from people being more durable than giants!
But what about the ROUSes?
@@DMSledge I don't think they exist
Well those are some great ideas. I had heard of this being used in videogames but never thought ot applying it to my dungeons. Thanks for the inspiration!
also, red luigi lol
Oh shit, howdy ma b'stard
Love your content! Recently implemented the hornbeetles from scorchfountain in my campaign and one of them is now my Pcs pet called Bumbum!
By my beard!
Great video! I was making a dungeon and was struggling to find a mechanic that wouldn't kill my newbie players out right and this fixed my problem
I used to create levels in Mario Maker and used this very technique. I don't know why I never thought to use it in D&D. Thanks for the reminder!
I did not have a name for this. Been doing it for years just by trial and error! Thank you!
I have no idea how.. but watching your series of videos have been some of the best content for DND ive seen.
This past weekend I ran out of time preparing for one of my sessions so instead of having a traditional session with combat I had my players trying to avoid 2 Udaaks in a forest , at night , in a snowstorm. It helped that I use Foundry and was having certain sound effects play at different times.
Dark Souls comes to mind as a similar example in how it handles this kind of stuff.
Just to pick one example, when you first enter the area with the ghosts, you have to cross a certain bridge to get there. On that bridge are 5 uses of the item that you need to fight ghosts. After that, the first ghost you encounter is by itself, in a very open space, where it is easy to outmaneuver it or run away. Further up there are two ghosts. Then there is a ghost that is hiding inside a wall (you can see it's weapon clipping through the wall), but even if it gets you, recovery and escape is relatively easy as there's only the one. After that, there are halls with many ghosts including in the walls that will try to surround you.
Here the game give you the tool, the introduction, and a gentle escalation into its challenge.
If you want something that is like a "beware of traps" sign: Use NPCs for that. Like that old guy with a hookhand in the village close to the dungeon could tell them to NOT TOUCH THE RED TILES on the wall, as that's how he lost his hand. Of course that means the players need to talk to your NPCs but that's something you want them to do and you can give those informations out as a reward for doing so.
Me: giving my pcs some hallucinations mushrooms and have them fight some tortles and Myconis
There's a lot of games that use this sort of design. Megaman and Zelda game are also two big ones. But one game that does it really well is Bioshock. In Bioshock, the first enemy in a fight will always miss theirs first shot, and the first trap in an area will alreaft be sprung. This allows the player to quickly assess the danger ahead without taking cheap damage.
Very funny idea! It reminds me of that old videogame Dragon's Lair
I almost did a Super Mario Bros based one-shot first my first time DMing.
I told my players that the boss was gonna be one of those tortle, but I don't think they caught on.
Also if you want to make bowser as a bbeg, I'd suggest using a tortle, make his size large, give him the ability to cast fireball, and give him seemingly unlimited throwing axes.
You should also make him fire resistant.
If you want him to have a second phase, make him come back to life in a giant skeletal form.
As an alternative to not making the initial traps deadly... make them so they were deadly at one time, but with people dying in them and/or all the adventurer's dealing with them (before they die) they may not be fully functional at this point. That first trap might have the spikes all broken at this point, or the timed protruding spikes might be wedged by the previous people who passed this version, but not the one further in. This might also train the party on possible ways to deal with the trap, provided the have the appropriate tools or skills.
Master The Dungeon,
Do a video on what Resident Evil, and Silent Hill can teach us about dungeon design, incorporating horror into DND. What if you actually want to make your players paranoid?
If you are diving into video game dungeons can we talk about skyrim and the amazing dungeons, puzzles, and overall layout of dungeons like the dungeons were what made that game fun.
However, sometimes you want a monster that’s more of an obstacle than a fight. A giant golem that follows an extremely predictable pattern could make sense.
what i would say is don't get bogged down in a third element, I didn't quite understand the introduction of a timing platform. it's something that doesn't really need building up for the player since they will figure out the means to cross it on first encounter. For Mario that is a spike in difficulty, but for D&D, "I jump the platform" becomes "I wait for the platforms to come close and jump".
I guess I'm not totally convinced mario is a very good example for D&D since skill is mostly abstracted through dice rolls and all that's really up to "you" is lateral thinking and player alertness and that these lessons are probably a bit better taught in Monkey Island or Zelda
I just made three D100 list to roll against for gift boxes for my own campaign last month for a Mario bros themed detour my party is going to be taking! A d4 randomly determines the top gift in the boxes and then a d100 to determine outcome.. i.e. flower mushroom etc.. one list has star at 100 another a leaf for the racoons tail one has a music box and the last a frog suit... Mechanically if they get a flower they can cast a super nerfed fireball 1d6+Prof mod as their action and bonus action for 1 minute.. the mushroom cast enlarge on them giving them adv to their attack but also gives attackers adv against them for attacks.. the leaf gives them levitate for 1 min. The star grants immunity to all damage for 1 minute the frog suit is an actual item they can keep that let's them breathe underwater and gives them a swim speed equal to their speed. Music Box will cast sleep on two targets within a 10ft range for disabling hammer bros! The d100 is a weighted list so not a total 100 possible options.. 1.. 1 coin 2 - 50 10 coins 51-85 mushroom.. 86-99 flower .. 100 star/leaf/frog suit/music box.. coins are copper pieces...
5:14 this image made me laugh
Evil dungeon lich: I should put lots of traps at the start of my dungeon that will help those pesky adventurers beat my traps later on.
The flaw in your philosophy.
you could hide all the gold in floating blocks and characters have to punch them to collect the coins
Imagine getting smacked by a facefull of falling gold upon punching the force block
A false pit trap: A hole in the ground that the players can see but if they step into it, its real ground.
A false-false pit trap: A hole in the ground that the players can see but if they step into it, its a real pit trap.
Bamboozled
I absolutely love this. A perfect addition to a bait-and-switch trickster dungeon.
I've been applying this bit of game design from Game Maker's Toolkit to ttrpgs for years. It works really well, but thinking of it exclusively in terms of traps and hazards is far too limiting. Applying this to enemy types, especially ones that present new mechanics, is probably the best use of this kind of pacing. The introduction of a type of trap, a puzzle element, or a second enemy type makes a good twist for the 3rd stage.
This progression can also, and I think should, be applied across sections of the entire campaign. A lot of folks can have a lot of trouble wrapping their heads social encounters, mysteries, or new styles of combat encounters for example, and it's very helpful to introduce 'new' concepts like this in a similar progression where the first time they're dealing with it is in a low-stakes context that has little punishment for failure, then ramp it up and add on complicating elements in future arcs.
Something I’ve done with a very gritty dungeon was have the first one be a spike pit trap, but it had been used so often part of the pit cover was broken and the first section had been so heavily filled with bodies of people and unlucky animals that wandered in that the spikes were covered over in most places with bodies that had mysteriously not rotted. The first trap WAS deadly, but it no longer had the same danger for the run the players were making.
“Mysteriously not rotted”
Why weren’t they rotting if you don’t mind me asking?
@@lightninjohn5651 time lock shenanigans. Nothing aged in there because the dungeon was suspended outside of linear time.
@@lightninjohn5651 probably also relevant, the dungeon builder was a necromancer that had been intending to come back for the bodies
@@Veelofar ah, that’s interesting
Great video!👍
Could you guys do a video on using *Resident Evil* in DnD, with the survival-horror/puzzle-solving mechanics the RE games are famous for?
Yes!
For this style of video of looking at video games, I’d say that you could look into Dark Souls Series for Dungeon Layout design (not the difficulty), since I feel that if transferred over DnD they’d make excellent dungeons with a few tweaks, specially the integration of hidden paths, and looping back the dungeons
Mario games use the greatest teaching mechanism and I can't believe I never thought to add it to my dungeons. Great stuff!
Rodents Of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist.
Seeing this was a shock because I am plotting to build a campaign around a Super Mario 64 style hub where you are transported to pocket dimensions by finding portals hidden among the rooms of a castle. XD Technically not the same deal as it is here, but I can absolutely use the lessons learned here to help me.
Here's a great excuse for the dungeons getting harder as you go in: The builder or master of the dungeon built from the inside out. More threatening and dangerous traps were cause they had a budget but weren't thinking about it. So they could line those pit traps with spikes or afford the vat of acid below the illusionary steps. As they expand though, they found the couldn't afford the spikes or acid any more, or the labor to make those "bottomless pits" (Materials for raising undead costs money, yo).
And resetting them costs money too! So the dungeon boss puts a big ol' "Danger: Keep out!" sign in front after running out of money. Not cause he doesn't want people to die, but cause he doesn't have the money to reset the traps.
I love the idea that you don’t want to make all your traps deadly if you were designing a dungeon. You don’t want bodies to pile up, and you DO want people to run out of your dungeon frightened and to spread the word about how horrible and scary your dungeon is.
That illusionary floor tile introduction makes me think of the party rogue finding some old lost pocket junk from the guards during its days as a living dungeon. Because given the provided visuals, you easily drop a coin and not see where it landed. Of course it could also encourage your players to fall for the more dangerous versions of the trap later on, so if you plan on including that don’t be a jerk.
By the way, I love that thumbnail.
Brilliant idea for a video. Great tips.
And I loved the "Red Luigi" comment!
love your guys' videos!
I recently discovered your videos and have been bindging on them. I "recently" started DnD about 6 months ago still in my first campaign I am just a player but I'd like to alternate with my DM so they can actually play since they were the designated "forever DM". I worry about my lack of creativity and difficulty thinking on the spot so watching your videos gives me a lot of bases to cover to make an immersive and allows me to think of all the possibilities when creating a campaign.
I did this either instinctively or on accident in my most recent dungeon. The map is a side-view instead of the usual top down (I told my players "You're playing Terraria now, not Zelda" :D ) and they have some platforms to jump, bridge, or zipline across, which they did very easily, but then there's a cascading sandfall (it's like a waterfall, but instead of water, sand) that makes casual navigation of platforms a lot more complicated.
I definitely visualized a combat happening on top of the floating platforms as the third instance of it showing up on the dungeon
Here's some great videos by GameMakers ToolKit that explain more deeply the level design philosophy for Mario levels:
- Super Mario 3D World's 4 Step Level Design, ruclips.net/video/dBmIkEvEBtA/видео.html
- Analysing Mario to Master Super Mario Maker, ruclips.net/video/e0c5Le1vGp4/видео.html
- How to Make Your First Super Mario Maker 2 Level, ruclips.net/video/Vwj3On5o58U/видео.html
I've implemented the broad idea of little by little showcasing a certain mechanic or enemy by remembering that the dungeon doesn't always has to begin at the entrance of the dungeon. So, on the way to the dungeon, the party will learn some basic mechanics. Some examples:
- Since other adventurers have already come here, and creature live here already, there's always gonna be evidence of that. There's already skeletons at the bottom of the pitfall, so players know the consequences. If they spy for a while, they're gonna see how the creatures that live here bypass the challenge. This part I try to make it more interesting by having the creature bypass the challenge in a way the party can't do it as easily as the creature (maybe due to a biological difference), or they only get to see the first part, not the second.
- If the dungeon is gonna feature some flooded sections where they'll have to swim or take a boat, I present that challenge at its most basic before even entering the dungeon. So, when they get to the dungeon, they already know what to do and don't have to learn the mechanic right there. But in the dungeon you're gonna ramp up the difficulty a little, maybe the water is full of creatures that are gonna attack, or they have a time constraint.
- I like having a theme to the adventure, so I look at d100 random tables for environments and check the options and choose those that fit the theme better. Maybe the dungeon is in a swamp, so they're gonna find bullywugs inside. While they're making their way to the dungeon, they're gonna find some bullywug patrols, that way they're gonna learn about the bullywugs and their abilities. The next encounter the bullywugs are gonna be more organised, and I'll also include some enemy roles from 4e. I'll also look for other creatures that pair up well with bullywugs, to make the encounter more challenging.
- I intertwine the introduction of new creatures and mechanics, so it doesn't feel like they're going in a steady incline. Instead, first I introduce an element, 1, then A, then 2, then !, then B, then 3, then ?, etc. This way the increase in difficulty doesn't feel like always going up, but more like going up and down.
Yes, this takes more time to prep, but I prefer doing this to make it more fun, instead of writing tons of lore :v
Honestly the 3D Red Luigi titles have some good map designs for that type of stuff
"The dead tells no tales"
Me: *casts speak with dead* are you sure about that?
For the algorithm!
early megaman games set a gold standard for introducing challenges to a player without saying a single word. Sequelitus did a terrific video on this several years ago. But yeah, I agree 100% with giving players "tells" to show them what's ahead of them.
Nothing is idiot proof, players will try to brute force something stupid like clueless people ripping wires out of the walls from an escape room or taking the door off the hinge because they had to pull it open instead of pushing it. Allow options for weird shit to happen. On the other spectrum you can have players so big brained they carry a bag of holding filled with 300 gallons of water to fill up a spike trap so they could just swim across it. Always keep your players collective intelligence in mind. Even the best designed level will stump the most smoothbrained people
Corpses? No, that's what the dungeon roomba is for! (Gelatinous cube)
I’m watching your channel newest to oldest. I just ran across the October channel update and I wanted to let you know I’m enjoying the channel, material and animation.
This channel is just great.
Mario levels, in my opinion, make for good trial dungeons. Dungeons that aren't meant to deadly or deterants, but rather as tests of wit and such. Perhaps the local god pf games trials and sports decides theyd like to watch the players try at a gauntlet of traps trials and monsters, this idiology of design could easily be used in this type of scenario to great effect.
You also can literally have a sign that says "Beware of traps", if you want the players to contemplate why the dungeon exists in the first place, or if the players are the ones who are supposed to install the signs for future travelers.
Game design, useful!
Who would've thought.
could you do a Sonic dungeon design video? I've been looking into playing Sonic themed dungeons and Dragons and I think it'd be cool
Deterrent that hurts like a bitch but isn’t deadly? Medieval femur breaker time.
I found this channel a few days ago and it's already one of my favorite rpg yt channels
Loved the video! If you take suggestions from youtube comments, I'd love to see a video about modifying D&D monsters for a more Witcher-y feel!
Sweet.
I did this in one of my old old campaigns a long time ago. Essentially it was like a "Tutorial" Dungeon for the players as a "Primer" for the classes and skills they used so they had a better understanding how to use them and take advantage of those skills and abilities.
It's fun telegraphing to players. They don't feel slighted or cheated when that complexity bumps up. They tend to think it a worthy challenge. Sometimes, I do this well. Other times, well... I do get called a mean DM every now and again. lol
I always apologize, though!
"Mario and DND don't mesh"
Super Mario RPG, Paper Mario, and Mario and Luigi series: *laughs in fake Italian*
This is neat, I never thought about a dungeon in that way!
Don't underestimate your mobility options. Making a character to run, climb, and jump can be fun and exciting! Funny how people say they're useless but that flight's overpowered.
'ERE WE GO
is this a mario refrence
@@girf4233 I believe more specifically it is a reference to Game Grumps, a RUclips let's play channel, where one of the players playing the Mario game exaggeratingly shouted as an impression of Mario by saying the quoted line above.
@@MrTailson1 actually I recently started playing warhammer which features an the “Orks” who have an ability called “Ere we go” where they run at people. But whenever I do it and say it in the Mario voice. 😂
@@jackcatchpowle8351 Ah, whoops. I never would have thought of that.
For combat encounters include both a variety of enemies and scenarios. Then mix and match them. For example
Encounter 1: Weak little goblins
Encounter 2: Weak little goblins + elite hobgoblins
Encounter 3: Weak little goblin ambush while the players deal with a booby trap
Encounter 4: Elite hobgoblins attack from behind cover attop a tower.
Encounter 5: Elite hobgoblins guard elite goblin
Start by introducing your primary enemies and giving a general feel what they are about. Then introduce a stronger enemy type and establish the goblins as their minions. Third showcase the strength of both enemy types in situations that amplify their natural strengths. Lastly we subvert and play around with earlier expectations. Using just 2 enemy types with minor variations we have a full dungeon with very different combat encounters and a scaling difficulty curve.
Would love to see a follow-up episode on this as applied to combat, which you glossed over - Mario games also apply this to their enemies, by treating them as hazards that can be combined in interesting ways.
The classic is by mixing melee and ranged enemies; for example, in a crypt dungeon players could encounter skeleton archers that can be avoided entirely by taking cover, or skeleton guards that charge the players but can be trapped or led in circles after they lock on to a character. Then, when both enemies are encountered together, the party must juggle keeping the guards away while not making themselves easy targets for the archers.
(Mario games do this with Koopas, which you jump over, and Hammer Throwers, which mess up your jump timing while staying away from you.)
this is great in regards to traps and certain mechanics!
another thing that Mario does "well" that can be thought of is alternate pathing.
sometimes invisible blocks you might find by mistake build a staircase, sometimes you really just have to KNOW the secret trick, and sometimes previously mundane or minor points of interaction are loaded with a greater suprise (like a hungry plant's warp pipe), or maybe you need to hold onto a specific powerup from earlier to unlock a passage.
It works fine for combat encounters too.
Take a classic cave of goblins or kobolds. Guarding the entrence you could have 2d4 of basic grunt goblins or kobolds, further in is the next encounter with a shaman, priest or other type of fitting support to enhance the base grunts combat style.
It's repeatable too since a goblin caster is more likely to aid with fiery nuke spells while a kobold might favor area denial spells to help his pack. An apprentice necromancer left behind to tend to the undead is likely to favor debuffs and ailments, a cult would have some buff spell clerics if they see themselves as good or could favor illusions as support if they are mystics with holy secrets to protect and so on.
Slowly building up faction identity by adding on to their prefered type pf tactics by advancing their NPC or monster roster, battleground preference (layouts, open vs closed, lighting conditions, cover use, difficult terrain use, trap style, group size preference, mount or machine use and so on) all help build up to some very interesting and unique (for the game) encounters.
Not every group will use every type of tactic but that means two things. Repeats against a group or type of enemy allows for higher base complexity and new groups will rock the status quo to spice things up. The players learn what to expect when they hear the sounds of hooves and heavily armed men in the colors of the order of the silver goblet emerge from the alley. Suddenly it makes sense that the street is cleared of vagons and stalls, the knights prefer open straights for their deadly ride by attacks.
Had it instead been hooded men with curved daggers stepping out the players might have scrambled for perception checks as the assassins of the hand of Furl Zan would not have shown themselves if the party wasn't already in the middle of their minefield of poisoned traps. The horse sounds in this case being safely disregarded as just being regular city background noise from the next street over.
I was curious of what you meant by this but yeah I do recall this about Super Mario game design principles but I never thought of adding them to D&D. This will be useful in the future whenever I try to run a D&D Mario homebrew again
Oh, man, now I got the idea for a dungeon corridor with pits covered by illusions.
Specifically, illusions that are only visible in light - creatures with darkvision/infravision see the heat signature of the actual floor, not the illusory bits of floor that isn't actually there...
Maybe with a small tell, like the torch-carrying adventurers' feet sinking a fraction of an inch into the stone floor, because the illusory floor is placed ever so slightly above the real floor to cover the whole corridor...
Actually, the topic starting at 4:14 is even more poignant when you consider the real implications of hit points. With how hit points work, what may kill a normal person won't kill a hardened adventurer. To kill a seasoned veteran, you'll need a much more extravagant trap - the kind of trap you can't exactly afford to put everywhere!
So the normal bandits will get cleaned up by the typical spike pits, but the final trap meant for the most hardy adventurers might just collapse the entire dungeon on top of them!
I disagree with this technique not working with dungeon monsters: leaving evidence of monsters in the dungeon before they're encountered gives the PCs a heads up on what's ahead, especially if they've got Rangers or Fighters in the party who lean into monster knowledge. You can also scale fights: the first time they find a [insert monster here], it doesn't want to fight and only fights for a round or two before running off. The next time it's encountered it's angry and cornered and much more likely to fight to the death, or it's gone to get help, or it's retreated to a prepared position with traps to even the odds against the PCs.
Same dungeon design philosophy, different application.
Idea: the first trap in a dungeon was initially meant to be just as fatal, but over decades has been bogged down by so many corpses that it's practically a non-problem. Like an over worked sawblade trap that's chewed through so many adventurers that it's teeth have been chipped and worn away, and maybe doesn't even spin all that fast anymore.
I think another point in favor of Mario-esque design is that Mario levels usually tend to revolve around an idea. Like one level is all about Bullet Bills or all about swinging platforms. Keep ideas streamlined and focused.
I do a similar thing for custom abilities I give my monsters. This helps the players not feel as of the bosses side kicks have an overpowered advantage, just show it before but weaker🙂
Trickster Dungeons = Troll Levels... That sounds fun!
If you really think about it, a dungeon should be set up to keep people out, not kill them. So, a "warning shot" type trap right at the beginning makes a lot of sense. Something designed to wound not create corpses. Heck an actual warning sign makes sense.
I've tried this stuff SO much with my players and they never freakin' get it...
With monsters, this works great for teaching unusual weak points. Your players first encounter some little monsters and you include a way for them to understand that, say, they're really tough but the crystal on its back is a weak point and if you shatter that, the monster dies. Then you ramp it up and give them a big melee with a bunch of these guys to hammer home the lesson, where things go way easier if they actually work to expose and target those weak points. Then you bring in the big momma monster and you can trust that they've actually figured out how this fight works.
Is Acererak your patron? xD Sounds like he has his undead fingers in this video.
I'm sure others have mentioned this, but you should also check out the way that Mega Man levels are designed to give you just enough time to see the enemy attack pattern in action before you can dive into it.
I have on regrets in meeting you
Friend
Should the day come that we are not together
You will continue to shine like
Gold
In my memories
"This is definitely an OSHA violation"
I see that all over tons of fantasy and sci-fi settings.
But I love paranoid players, I want my players stressed in a dungeon.
One useful tool is incorporating monster encounters and environmental hazards together. What might be a hazardous obstacle in one context could be a combat tool or even an escape route in other contexts.
here's a great video on how mega man uses tutorials to teach a player as he goes along. Pretty genius stuff.
ruclips.net/video/8FpigqfcvlM/видео.html
I HAVE A GAME IN AN HOUR WHY AM I SEEING A MARIO DUNGEON! I NEED TO STEAL IDEAS FROM OTHER VIDEOS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
wait i can use this ohhhhh OHHHHH MAMA MIA!!!
Traps that don't leave corpses: pit trap with a Gelatinous Cube at the bottom.
She's gonna put that helmet on one day, I just know it.
If I wanted to make a "Super Mario" Dungeon, I would redesign Kamek so he's a much more formidable wizard.
How about dungeon design based on DooM (1993)?
This is a great idea i would never of thought apply
Unlucky adventurers are great tutorials.
Would love to see you discuss Portal based dungeon design
This is some good advice!
Finally got through all the videos on the channel. Absolutely love this channel (Your illustrator is hilarious by the way!!)
The channel seems to be very trap oriented. Any other future series?
Always a lot in the works, but we're happy to take suggestions.
Awesome info! New subscriber here!
I love your drawings 😂
Another simple story-based application of this principle could be a gnome illusionist engineer who has taken up residence in a cavern and has implemented several traps to guard his "territory" while gradually delving deeper and improving upon his previous designs as he goes.
I really like this in-universe explanation of why the traps would get more sophisticated and dangerous as you progress.
Realy you have a point here 👍
I hit like at "Red Luigi"
Oh I love this Chanel