Did the Disciples REALLY Die as Martyrs?
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- Опубликовано: 3 дек 2024
- How confident can we be that the apostles really gave their lives for their beliefs? Can we truly call them martyrs? Listen as Frank takes on these tough questions by sharing info from our friend Sean McDowell's doctoral dissertation and highlighting the available evidence suggesting their TRUE fate.
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Why We Know the New Testament Writers Told the Truth by Frank Turek (DVD👉📱 cutt.ly/pPdbUzq, Mp3👉📱 cutt.ly/nPdbDRv, and Mp4👉📱cutt.ly/gPdbCCr)
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#Martyrs #Christianity #Apologetics
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God bless you Frank. Thank you for all the work you do for the Kingdom of God ✝️♥️
Jesus is Lord.
Amen, God bless.
Your lord
@@Mavors1099 that's right. Your lord is Satan.
@@gi169 God bless you too.
AMEN! LORDT.
Truly enjoy your platform and the knowledge you share. God bless.
Knowledge ? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
How do you define knowledge, chief?
Thanks for setting me up for failure, frank.
There I fixed it for you
Thank you for your videos!
This objection isn't based on logic. It's obvious to anyone who has the ability to think, even a little bit.
1: They are being put to death for being a Christian.
2: They don't need permission to recant.
3: If they knew it was false, they obviously would recant. Just like the Mormons did.
4: If any of them did recant, they would have been paraded down the street. But none did.
How much more valuable would Peter have been as a recanted Christian that as a martyr? His value as a living racanter would have been INFINITELY more than as a martyr!!! The whole point was to end the dangerous new cult (Rome's words, not mine). Martyrs tend to increase membership. But a high level recanter could have ended it right there.
1. They who?
@@Mavors1099 , Who were the subjects of the video? Wasn't it the Apostles? Was anyone else mentioned?
@@Kahless_the_Unforgettable
Well, the video mentions “disciples”, a very unspecific term. It mentions Paul, who wasn´t an apostle. Even the examples Frank uses… well, the Christians referred by Plinius were not the Apostles, none of those Christians ever met Jesus.
Now, if you´re talking about the Apostles, how do you know they were put to death for being Christians? What is “being Christian”? Most of the stories about their deaths are legend. Peter, for instance, it´s said that he died under Nero´s persecution. And Nero killed Christians, not for being Christians, but for burning Rome down (that was the charge).
And when did Joseph Smith recant?
@@Mavors1099 Okay. So we aren't going to be honest. Got it.
The context made it crystal clear. I'm not going to watch the video again to show where. But literally no one had a question about who the subject was.
I never said Joseph Smith recanted. He didn't. I said "Mormons". The three Mormons that claimed to see the angel and the golden plates all recanted. Later, one recanted his recanting, but was not accepted back into the Mormon Church. So he started a new denomination of Mormonism.
Look up the three Mormon Witnesses. These are the ones that say they witnessed the entire miracle. All three recanted.
@@Kahless_the_Unforgettable
Well, if you want to be deshonest, that´s your problem.
The question about the mormons has been answered. I´m waiting for the other questions to be answered.
Excellent point. You can't just invent an alternative scenario nearly 2000 years later, and demand to be proven wrong.
what evidence is there that the disciples (apostles?) were martyred? He didn't provide any, he just asserted that there was evidence.
@@lapis_lazuli578 You are literally doing what I just said. There are documents and source materials for this. You just haven't read them, and I suspect you have no interest in looking them up or reading them.
Again, it's ridiculous to show up 2000 years later and be like, "prove it."
@@marcus3457 what am i doing? I haven't invented an alternative scenario (or any scenario).
Christians use the martyrdom of the apostles as evidence of the truth of Christianity. I came to this video wanting to know what the evidence for that is. Frank gestured towards where evidence may be found but didn't present any. Yet people in this comment section are acting like he presented evidence.
"it's ridiculous to show up 2000 years later and be like, "prove it." not sure what this means. 2000 years after what?
Even if they didn't die as matryrs(they obviously did), I cant imagine the disciples would choose to spend their entire life being bruised and beaten over some fantasy they made up. The way they lived their lives is a perfection reflection of what they truly believed.
Jehovah’s Witnesses today suffer persecution and criticism from fellow Christians for their faith.
That doesn’t make it true.
@@Moist._Robot except they never went through torture or life threatening situations for their faith. So the comparison is extremely pale and frankly ridiculous.
@Moist._Robot 😂 That was a real reach for moral equivalency.
@@cisuminocisumino3250
But still the point still stands.
Just because you suffer for your belief doesn’t make the belief true.
You can say they truly believe it. That does not mean that their beliefs were true, though.
I believe that if one of the Apostles had tried to denounce Jesus to avoid whatever punishment was being imposed, the historians of the day would have made note of that.
Did historians write the Bible?
Ummm okay?
The "historians" didn't even make note of Jesus til DECADES after his death.....
And even then it was just biased zealots.
You must not have researched this much. Several of the most highly respected Roman historians documented Jesus' death and resurrection, as well as the acts of his disciples after his ascension. Many of these historians are considered to be authoritative in other topics relevant to ancient Rome. @@mattslater2603
@@CaptainFantastic222 No, though Luke was a doctor and Matthew was a tax collector. Both required meticulous record taking skills.
Also several Roman historians corroborate the gospels.
@@isheworthywhich Roman scholars documented this?
Thank yoy CE.
Brother gil 🙌 have a blessed day in CHRIST JESUS
Harvest is ripe! We need more Harvesters
May the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
enlighten the eyes of our hearts,
that we may know what is the hope
that belongs to our call.
Maybe you should ask him to teach you some science so you're not so easily humiliated
@@logicalatheist1065 Humiliation is one of the most difficult disciplines. I hope to get better at it, day by day.
Kindly tell me what science I need for my activities today.
@@harryfaber How about squaring your God belief with the first law of thermodynamics?
@@harryfaber has left the chat 🏃♂️
Amen❤
Same way I believe/ know that Julius Cesar existed, it was recorded by both non Christian and Christian sources that recorded their lives and beliefs that were written within 100 years of their lives
They also made him a god after his death so do you believe that too?
Ceasar has contemporary evidence, where Jesus has none
Whether they recanted or not, know that there's no Hope for humanity without Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord and Saviour.
No sceptic denies the apostles faced great adversity for their faith. Especially Paul later on. Martyr death of Paul, Peter and James brother of Christ are pretty certain
Irrelevant. Doesn't add any truth value to their claims, at all.
@@mattslater2603 it does. Since they didnt suffer for a testimony of someone else (like us christians do) but they suffered and died for something they themselves saw. It adds great value, especially with Paul and Jesus brother who didnt believe in christ before. Paul even persecuted christians
Jesus Is King ! 🙌🙌🙌🙌
Can I get prayer for my ex's salvation please her name is Gisselle
What's praying going to do? Talking to yourself doesn't fix issues for others
Praying for you and Gisselle
I will pray for her
I think he misunderstood the question. The question wasn't whether them being martyred works as evidence to their testimony, the question was whether we can say they were actually martyred at all given "no historical evidence."
I'm not saying they weren't martyred, I think they were, but that was the question.
The simpler answer: You don’t need to be given the option to “recant” to be considered a martyr.
The apostles knew the consequences for preaching the gospel could lead to death, yet they continued anyway. The option to “recant” is irrelevant to their martyrdom. They were killed for what they SAW.
Were they killed to begin with?
@@Mavors1099 Yes, except for John who is believed to have died from old age after being exiled for…ding ding…preaching the gospel.
@@YEYGAHH
Source?
@@Mavors1099 go look it up yourself. I’m not gonna do your homework for you. You owe it to yourself to research this topic thoroughly. It’s important.
@@YEYGAHH
Lol.. so you make claims that you can't back up.. I knew it.
1) Because Peter was not arrested and later sentenced to death for believing in Jesus, Christians like Peter were arrested for the burning of Rome in 64 AD
2) Paul himself who was arrested in Jerusalem demanded to be tried as a Roman citizen to avoid being a Martyr when the Jews sentenced him to death for being a Christian
CE reallly puts a logical foundation to the Christian faith
😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@Mavors1099 your comment says it all about your position. Nothing solid just your emotion
@@jeffphelps1355
Exactly, that's my mood after reading your statement, it just causes me to laugh. I don't know what else you were expecting. It's just a gratuitous affirmation, an opinion, not an argument, not a proof, just hollow words of flattery.
@@jeffphelps1355 Solid is possibly 'dense', Dux may consider himself solid.
Mocking my comment doesn't make it false it makes your position look desperate
Me personally if i was a apostle and i didn’t believe then i would not continue the religion and re locate somewhere safe
How did the apostles died? all thoses informations are from history and church tradition anybody can check them
Andrew
He preached in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.
Philip
He possibly had a powerful ministry in Carthage in North Africa and Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation, the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.
Thomas
He was probably most active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India, where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder. They claim that he died there when pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.
Bartholomew
He had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas and back to Armenia, Ethiopia, and Southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.
James
He was the son of Alpheus and is one of at least three James referred to in the New Testament. There is some confusion as to which is which, but this James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.
Simon, the Zealot
As the story goes, he ministered in Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.
Matthias
He was the apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him to Syria with Andrew and to death by burning.
John
The only one of the apostles generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. He was the church leader in the Ephesus area and is said to have taken care of Mary the mother of Jesus in his home. During Domitian's persecution in the middle '90s, he was exiled to the island of Patmos. There he is credited with writing the last book of the New Testament--the Revelation. An early Latin tradition has him escaping unhurt after being cast into boiling oil in Rome.
Almost none of what you said is considered historical facts.
@@mattslater2603 thoses are considered historical facts by those who think objectivly. What do you mean by "is considered" by who?
JESUS IS KING 👑
Where's his kingdom?
If any of the disciples renounced Jesus, everyone would have stopped following him pretty quickly. That didn’t happen.
Why would others stop?
Because if the people that were there to see the resurrection, came out and recanted and said it was a lie, no one would have any reason to believe in Jesus Christ. Common Sense Matt
Who cares? Doesn't add any truth value to their silly supernatural claims.... at all.
Do you know who Jimmy Swaggart is? Well, after all the fiasco and immorality reveled, he still has tmillions of followers.
Yes, it’s time to make unbelievers come up with evidence that God doesn’t exist. It is time make them prove their proclamations. They are trolling videos of faith giving their opinions like their opinions are facts. Now they prove they are right.
Not all of us are firmly convinced that there is absolutely no God at all. But I'm also not convinced that the Christian God is THE God.
None of those critics were there so they made a guess and their bias showed through.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Stephen was martyred in the book of acts he was stoned to death. Saul who later became Paul was there
Amen, God bless brother Larz.
Huh? The people making the opposite claim weren't there either... and their silly supernatural bias is shining through.
See how that works?
@@mattslater2603 I don't care about your opinion , see how that works
@@larzman651
Amen to your OP brother 🙏❤️ 🙌 and LOL to your response to half pint.
He doesn't get how a lot of things work, he's proven that over and over.
Peace to YOU Larz 🙏❤️, Shlatz doesn't understand how that works either, lol....
@@TomMichael5678 LORD bless you tom 🙌
Religion loves stories that have to be true because there was no love . Absolute evidence for God.
The flood, and the end of any world, either the one they live in, built and maintained by faith, or the actual physical world. Did and will happen because there was no more love.
@elmercoblentz9432
Jesus loves you, and I love you too.
I hope and pray for you to come to know the person of Jesus while you are still here.
@@tearren1
What would you do if your world ended, but your life continued?
Maybe study the destruction of Jerusalem. That’s a pretty good description of what those who lost hope will do.
If you apply end times scripture to the spiritual, belief world, they fit perfectly. It is destroyed by lack of love, not faith. You can even make, (this generation will not pass until these are all fulfilled) come true.
My redemption comes through truth. If leaders of religion are not there to give a standard that will endure until our great, great, grandchildren can have hope of having children without guilt, regret and shame, as we did, then they should fulfill end times prophecies. Which would be really hard to avoid.
@elmercoblentz9432
Jesus set the example for us to live by. Jesus is truth. Jesus is love. Faith in Jesus and love are inseperable.
If a person has faith and trust in Jesus, then they will have love for their fellow man (person). If there is no faith and trust in God, then there wont be true love for each other (outside of maybe relatives and friends, in general even disbelievers love their children).
Perhaps youve heard this before, the Apostle Paul speaks of the qualities we should see in a true christian. We know that a tree is know by its fruit. A good tree bears good fruit, we can know the tree is a good tree by the fruit it bears.
”But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.“
Galatians 5:22-23 KJV
What i think some people miss is the “against such there is no law.“ There is no law against these things, but also there is no law that man can pass or that God could give to make people love one another. Jesus says all the Old Testament law hangs on love for God and love for man. (Mathew 22:37-38). Look how that turned out, before Christ came.
Allow me to explain what happens when you know the person of Jesus and accept him as your Lord and savior. When you come to Christ, you recieve the Holy Spirit. You are born anew, you are a new creation. There is meaningfull change in your life. Being born again doesnt just change what you do because a book says you should do something or something a man in a pulpit says, but it changes not just who you are, but what you want to do. There is meaningful change in the person and in the way a person acts, in the things he/she says, and in the things he/she does. This is what it means to be born again.
God who loved you so much, that he gave his only begotten son who suffered and died for you so you may live. I invite you not to follow a relgion but the person of Jesus Christ our Lord and savior.
Paul in Romans 10:9 says
”that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.“
Romans 10:9 KJV
A lot of non-believers don’t want it to be true so they can live their live anyway they want which usually means they don’t want to give up their sin or change their perspective and live for and to glorify Jesus in all you do. If they are sinning u will definitely not be glorifying God one step further if u are not asking for forgiveness and truly repenting than u are not forgiven. Read you’re Bible daily no matter what get an apologetic book and learn how to accurately defend you’re faith
Lol.. what a ludicrous claim
It's not that we don't want it to be true, there's not enough evidence to support Christianity. Just another religion, just another Abrahamic religion... Fiction
Or a lot of people read the Bible in depth and studied apologetics and read crappy books by people like Frank and came to the conclusion that the book is illogical and disjointed and about what we would expect from a bunch of unconnected letters compiled together and written by poorly educated warlords who lied and used god as a pretext to rob and rape and enslave their neighbors. I don’t sin because sin is offending a god. No god has come told me to stop enjoying my life. Only religious people have done that. Enjoy your day
Numerous people have died throughout history for their beliefs
They didn’t die for a “belief”.
They died for what they saw with their own eyes.
That’s the major difference
@@YEYGAHHpeople have died for what they believed and what they believed they saw and/or experienced
@@lawrenceeason8007 I haven’t heard of anyone dying for something they KNOWINGLY made up. So you have to ask yourself, did the Apostles…LIE…about Jesus’ resurrection?
Think about it. Why risk your life for a lie that you, yourself, all you,…..made up?
@@YEYGAHHno I’m saying people have died for what they believe…whether that belief reflects reality or not. Such as religion…gods…humans believed to be divine, etc
@@lawrenceeason8007 I know what you’re saying. What I’m pointing out is that, THATS NOT what we have here. People will die for a system. They will die for a doctrine. They will die for story that was told to them. They will not however, die for a lie they KNOW is false.
Seriously, let me ask you. Do you think the Apostles were lying? If so, what are there motives to lie? If not, then why don’t you believe them?
✝️🙏🏽❤️
Paul was stoned whipped shipwrecked hungry and rejected - he believed in His God and God gave him power and strength to go on - otherwise how do you bear the trauma of all his stonings and beatings - he knew His God and was willing to be a living sacrifice...while living
Paul did believe in his god, that's unquestionable. That this god gave him straight, that's just fantasy.
I often think about Paul. He went to Malta, I went to Malta. He was bitten by a viper, so was I (not in Malta, in England). Paul suffered no ill effects, I was in hospital for 3 days. I did once ask a nun what was the difference. She smiled and said 'Maybe Paul's faith was stronger than yours....'
“Recant”…. some basic notions about recanting testimony: 1. They “really” believed what they believed. Unfortunately there have been millions if not billions of people who were believe lies and false information. 2. Even guilty criminal suspects will refuse to admit they did something because the lack the courage to suffer the consequences of their acts. They’re “cowards” and the same principle applies to people who spread delusions.
So the question of recanting personal testimony has roots in the sense of what kind and fear one might be facing.
Of course not. It's well known that the Scribes and Pharisees as well as the Romans welcomed Christianity with open arms. Caesar quickly abandoned his throne for Christ and the apostles were modern day celebrities. Christians were loved by the secular world as much as they are today.
I hope you have a blessed day brother festus 🙌
Awesome brother scarcasm... I like where you are going with this. God bless.
@@larzman651 You as well.
@@gi169 Glad you guys are picking up on it. Everyone else is going the direct defense route. I thought I'd take the other.
@@festushaggen2563
Although none of the disciples were given option to live if they recanted.
If frank has answered the question not sure why people are asking the same question that was answered already. Did u watch the video???
This might get deleted but Here is the book
I put a link to the book on Amazon. Currently it's about $38 if anyone cares.
Granted you do have 4 independently verifiable sources in the gospel, but there are about 13 non/anti Christian sources that attest to Christ and only 11 non Christian that attest to ceasar written within 100 years of their lives, if I don’t question ceasar , why should I question these non Christian sources on the evidence of Jesus other than pride or simply not wanting to acknowledge a God or authority outside of myself and there by choosing to reject the evidence given to promote my personal agenda
No question we have more info and proof of Julius Ceasar
That’s doesn’t mean Jesus wasn’t a real man, he most certainly was. And it makes sense there is not more writings about Jesus as the Romans would not have wanted to record or spread information about a man they thought was an insurrectionist
No need to jump to pride or a "personal agenda". Merely wanting the truth verified is more than enough imo.
First of all there are a big fat zero people who lived anywhere near the life of Jesus who wrote one word. Even the gospels could not have been written by anyone who was alive during Jesus. So it is irrelevant how many historians in the centuries after Jesus wrote about him. They know if the story is true just as much as you do. Btw this is also a huge red flag that nobody wrote one word about him. It's not like there weren't historians during the life of Jesus. Was it really not newsworthy for anyone to have recorded? Does that really make sense?
Second of all, to compare historical evidence and the fact that we believe history with little evidence to believing in the story of Jesus is absurd. To believe what you read about Ceasar or Alexander the Great or George Washington or whoever makes no difference in your life. In other words, let's just say Alexander the Great never really existed and it's all a hoax or George Washington was really not a president but the janitor, does anything change? Would your life be any different? Not at all. It's nice to know the truth but if you don't, who cares. It makes no difference in how you live you life. However, if the story of Jesus is false and it's all a lie, this changes everything. It means you have based you life on a lie and you are following a lie and spending your life worshipping a lie. Don't you think this needs some pretty solid evidence that it is true? So of course we believe what we read in the history books since why not? I have no reason not to and it doesn't impact anything in my life if it's a lie.
@@nothingbutthetruth613 Perhaps George Washington did not exist and all your tax revenue is still paid directly to King Charles III? Everything that happened in the past affects us today. Our daily lives are a result of all things from history.
Excuse me while I go and put some rendered pork fat oil in my lamps, it is still dark here.
I personally believe that they died as matryrs because Jesus said that they will drink from His cup.
Are you aware of any _firsthand eyewitness accounts_ of this Jesus supposedly saying this?
That´s a terrible reason.
@@Mavors1099 why is that?
Do we have any proof that there was ever a single Roman law against being a born again Christian?
Firstly, I don't know, but I think the issue was that they would not 'worship' the Roman gods.
@@charliechapman_so you have nothing then?
@@harryfabernothing then?
Figured
There wasn’t one. It just fits their persecution narrative
Please, please ... do NOT USE AI Imaging... it ruins a great explanation
Atheists "Some critics"
you mean people who use reason instead of reading a fairy tale ?
@@thierry860.....yes.
Atheists use reason. 😅🤣😂
@@gi169 Yes, some has to, we can't be children forever.
@@thierry860
😅🤣😂
There is a real problem establishing anything about any of the alleged disciples. They left no writings themselves and the only account by an eyewitness to their actions are Paul's accounts. Paul himself never uses the word 'disciple' and just considers them apostles of a rival sect of christianity. He gives them no authority and considers his own revelation as valid as their own. Just as it is odd Paul never describes any earthly life for Jesus, no teachings, no miracles etc. Even for Paul we have conflicting information with Clement of Rome writing that Paul died in Spain, which is at odds with Acts. There are so many forgeries and fakes in the documentary record even from Paul's time that making any kind of claims about the disciples is pure conjecture.
Tradition says they did but no other evidence
"Did the Disciples REALLY Die as Martyrs?"
Yes, they really did. Why would you want to believe otherwise?
"the Bible is manmade" Well your COUNTER Biblical beliefs are DEFINITELY man made!! Although IT ITSELF is manmade, it is GOD - _INSPIRED_
Jesus loves you, come to Him ❤💗
😂😂😂😂
Can you prove that every word is from God?
And you know it’s god inspired because fallible men said so.
Every man be a liar.
@@mattr.1887 That's not a criteria for belieiving in the inspiration of scripture. False equivalence.
Hmmm... What do they call it when you attack and ridicule someone for their beliefs... 🤔🤔🤔 Oh yeah, a bigot...
Not all of them died a martyr. There zero historical support for saying they did not die as martyrs.
What a ridiculous assumption! Every day, Christians are being martyred for their faith in Jesus in other countries. It proves their faith. If any were to recant to escape punishment, they would not die a physical death but a spiritual death because they would then be rejecting God in favor of the world. That would mean they loved their lives in this world more than Christ.
The saints (believers) are called to follow Christ even if it means to our death! Our devotion to Him must outweigh anyone or anything on earth.
In Matthew 10:37-39, Jesus said,
“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.”
What assumption are you talking about?
@@Moist._Robot the assumption that the disciples did not have a chance to recant. Of course they could have recanted, but obviously didn’t… because they died for their faith.
@@jenniferwarren82
Where in the bible does it say this?
Read my separate comment on this video. This is not even biblical.
It’s a modern day Christian apologetic
@@Moist._Robot The only apostle whose death the Bible records is James (Acts 12:2). King Herod had James “put to death with the sword,” likely a reference to beheading. It is not so important how the apostles died. What is important is the fact that they were all willing to die for their faith. Most stories are related through the books of the Apocrypha and other historical books, and passed down through the centuries - so not really modern apologetics..
People will not die for something they know to be a lie. It continues to this day. The fact that any person would be willing to die horrible deaths, refusing to renounce their faith in Christ, is tremendous evidence of their faith and belief. Recanting would not be an option.
I pray that, in all the effort you put forth to disprove and discredit the God who created you, you will come to an end of yourself. I pray that you come face to face with Him in a way that changes you from the inside out. It must be a very bitter, lonely and desperate life having nothing better to do than bicker with people trying to disprove the very basic truth that God places in every person. (Romans 1:18-32)
@@jenniferwarren82
It’s tremendous evidence for their faith and belief but not evidence that it was actually true.
The claim is that they chose to die when they could’ve lived if they’d recanted.
But where does the bible even say this?
It doesn’t.
That’s the point.
What I’m showing you is that your reasons for believing all of this are not good reasons.
This apologetic is often peddled as good evidence that Jesus rose from the dead but it isn’t good evidence.
They simply died for what they believed assuming the stories are true.
if God know everything in the future, why has he created men and woman, even he knew they gonna fail
FOXES book of MARTYRS.
Plinius was writing circa 112 AD, si he wasn't refering to the direct disciples of jesus or anyone who actually met Jesus.
What does recanting have to do with it?
Not a fan of the AI generated images you're using in videos now especially when you have what looks like telephone poles.
What does it mean if they died as martyrs ? People die for what they believe in all the time. Even when they have been shown they are wrong about their beliefs. Dying for your beliefs doesn't prove anything other than utter foolishness.
-- *"Dying for your beliefs doesn't prove anything other than utter foolishness."* --
Well you've got nothing to worry about Bonesy, you HAVE NO BELIEFS.
Strange though, how "YOU BELIEVE" dying for your beliefs is utter foolishness.
Think that qualifies as a "BELIEF" Sherlock?
Commented like someone who is already dead in their beliefs Bonsey...
@@HUNTSMARTFASTHARD
Well, well, well, lookit we got ourselves here! An all bent outta shape Elmer Fudd, crying out to Timmy, AGAIN.
Biting at the bit to engage with Timmy, LOL.
Hey Elmer, shouldn't you be out hunting down those pesky wabbits over running your country instead of chasing Christians around?
You must miss me buddy, saying "you THOUGHT I might find this interesting".
Nahhhh, I don't. I'm more interested in knowing if you still talk to your "alleged" friends about me, hahaahaaa?
Do your country a big service Elmer and get out hunting those pesky wabbits, pal 😂...
BUT, I KNOW you're not a real hunter, Elmer. A real hunter is much wiser and clever than you.
if christianity was false, as soon as stephen got stoned, people would've walked away from the faith
People follow untrue beliefs to death literally all of the time. It's particularly common for those beliefs to be religious beliefs.
Why would they do that?
@@Gek1177 But the people who die for "untrue beliefs" genuinely believe what they are dying for, in the Apostles case they are eye witnesses to the event who truly believe Jesus rose from the dead and saw it.
@@mysteryman8122 yeah, other than the fact that we don't know how many of the Apostles actually existed it's entirely possible that they genuinely believed something that wasn't true.
It's a common enough occurrence.
@@Gek1177 Well we know there was at least 12 Apostles that existed
First century non Christian sources attesting to Jesus to name a few
I’m intentionally leaving out Christian sources;
Lucian
Babylonian Talmud
Josephus
Pliny the Younger
Tacitus
If you need a modern very non Christian historian to attest to Christs historicity I’d suggest reading Bart Erdman
He will also mention many more writings than me
The historicity of Jesus is not the question.
Peter died in Jerusalem where he is buried, waiting, as instructed. We don't know where Paul was, other than a prisoner and he appealed to Agrippa.
bs.
The best evidence suggests that he died in Rome and was buried there.
@@harryfaber Which evidence? Which one? Peter's bone box is right where it is supposed to be in accordance with the scriptures. It is at the Mount of Olives. Paul went to the gentiles and left, but we know he did come back for things like the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 because, as stated, Paul went to the gentiles and did not put them under the law.
@@nickma71 Dionysius of Corinth says 'Rome'.
@@harryfaber For Paul? The King Agrippa in scripture is Israel. I am pretty sure.
Even if they died while claiming to believe, that wouldn't be sufficient evidence to justify believing that it was actually true.
People die believing false things all the time .
That's true but the argument is that these people supposedly actually experienced it so they would have known if it was a scam. The problems are immense though. For one we have no idea if they actually experienced it and even if they did, we really have no evidence that they actually died or were killed or whatever. The bottom line is we really don't KNOW anything
Except that they died for their beliefs after having actually KNOWN/EXPERIENCED Jesus; and, they did so even after he was crucified. After that, they believed that he was who/what he claimed to be, and, that he'd been resurrected.
@@nothingbutthetruth613 No; you're manufacturing "problems" because you don't want some of the assertions of Christianity to be true. As for "having no idea": Feel FREE to GOOGLE evidence for ANY/ALL of it. [but, yeah; YOU definitely DON'T know ANYTHING] 😏
@@johnharrison6745 I love when people tell me to google something when they have no answer. I'm not manufacturing anything. If you want to use this as evidence for the authenticity of the nt, you need to show me how you know it isn't completely fabricated. You have no way of doing that. All your assertions are all in your imagination and a desperate attempt to justify your agenda which has nothing to back it up. It is not part of reality
@@johnharrison6745
Even If I grant you all of that, you still at best can say that these people genuinely believed.
That still doesn't come close to being sufficient evidence to say that what they believed was true.
As an example, there are thousands of people who say they have seen aliens, or Bigfoot. They truly believe that they have. That's not a good reason to believe in aliens or Bigfoot. Not even if they die for those beliefs.
I love watching people attempt apologetics in the comments section on YT videos.🤦 It's like watching a Transatlantic chess matching being played out in Morse Code.
How many souls in hell is considered as satans win?
Lmfao . . . no disciple died as a martyr.
Lmfao . . .
Sean McDowell says Christians should not use the argument that martyrs died for their beliefs as evidence for Christianity. He says there is not enough evidence for the claims.
A little confused, can you please provide a quote if you can?
@philb4462
He actually said we are very certain that some gave their life for their faith, but we have not for all of them good reliable historical information….
He did a long video with David Wood in the past if I remember correctly, video may be gone due to the removal of most of his videos from his channel….
But there is evidence for the disciples and their students thereafter
Is that from his book?
I am sure Paulogia made a video or even some videos with Dr. Sean McDowell in which they talked about this, and in which Dr. McDowell says that he used to think this argument that the martyrs didn't "die for a lie" was very convincing, but that he found out in the process of writing his dissertation that it's not really all that strong for the vast majority of the disciples.
Hail Satan ❤ Satan loves you❤ Hail Satan
Paul was eyewitness of what?
Christians being martyred.
@@harryfaber
So what?
@@Mavors1099 So he had a pretty good idea what was in store for him.
@@harryfaber
So what? What would that demonstrate?
@@Mavors1099 It demonstrates that Paul's faith was strong enough that even knowing his probable fate, he stayed the course.
People of all kinds please state if you are christian or muslim, atheists, agnostics or any combination of those and then if willing participate in the test. As well, looking for 5 good moral theist questions for atheists/agnostics.
#1 You see a child drowning in a shallow pool and notice a person just watching that is able to save the child with no risk to themselves but is not, is that persons non action moral?
#2 If you go to save the child, the man tells you to stop as he was told it was for the greater good, but he does not know what that is, do you continue to save the child?
#3 Is it an act of justice to punish innocent people for the crimes of others?
#4 If you were able to stop it and knew a person was about to grape a child would you stop it?
#5 Would you consider a parent who put their kids in a room with a poison fruit and told the kids not to eat it but then also put the best con artist in the room with the children knowing the con artist will get the kids to eat the fruit and the parent does nothing to stop it a good parent?
why do you repost this very same MIND GAME across MULTIPLE videos?? very odd.
@@drillyourarguments >>why do you repost this very same MIND GAME across MULTIPLE videos??"'
To collect data about unconscious denial as many christians and muslims cant answer them. Atheists and agnostics are nearly 100% at answering them, christians are less then 18% and muslims less then 7%.
>>very odd.""
What is odd is that the people who say they have moral grounding avoid these simple moral questions so often and the people that they say do not have moral grounding have no problems answering them. Dont you find that odd?
@@drillyourarguments >>why do you repost this very same MIND GAME across MULTIPLE videos??""
Because it exposed the unconscious denial of many christians and muslims as atheists and agnostics are nearly 100% at answering these questions and christians are less then 18% and muslims are less then 7%.
>>very odd.""
I find it very odd that many christians and muslims cant answer these simple moral questions that atheists and agnostics can and yet say they have grounding got their morals and that atheists and agnostics do not. Dont you find that odd?
@@drillyourarguments Can you answer the questions or not?
@@drillyourarguments I answered your question, are you going to answer mine?
Peter did know Jesus when he was alive, and could have been a 100% board certified martyr who died for what he *_knew_* to be true. But if Peter was killed in the persecutions by Nero after the Great Fire of Rome, then even if he would have recanted, that would not have saved him, because those persecutions were politically motivated and had nothing to do with religious doctrine.
Paul on the other hand could never have been a martyr for what he *_knew_* to be true, because he had not known Jesus when he was alive. Paul's faith is of the same category of yours, or mine when I was still a believer, or of religious suicide bombers, or of any of the martyrs in the later persecutions, who died for what they *_believed_* to be true.
James, the son of Zebedee, is described in Acts 12 as having been killed by king Herod (Agrippa I), however, the passage doesn't say why he was killed, and the king only learns later that killing this man pleased the "Jews", presumably the Jewish religious authorities, because he belonged to the Jesus sect. It is only after the king learns of this that he goes after Peter, who was one of the leaders of the Jesus movement. As we also know James and his brother were hotheads, it is not unlikely that he was killed for different reasons, like public order, or for some political reason we don't know about. Whatever the case may be, it seems clear from Acts 12 that king Herod Agrippa did not kill James the son of Zebedee *_because_* he was a Christian; that just happened to be a political bonus after the fact.
We also learn from Acts 12 that James the son of Zebedee was killed by the sword. This too indicates that he was not killed for religious reasons, because if king Herod thought James deserved to die because he was a heretic, it would have been the Sanhedrin that would have been responsible for judging him, not the king, as we see in the story of Jesus and in the story of James, Jesus' brother. All in all, it seems unlikely that James, the son of Zebedee, could have saved himself by recanting or by "not being a Christian".
Finally, we have a few different stories about the death of James, the brother of Jesus. There is the account by Josephus, and then there is the account of Hegesippus as quoted by Eusebius. There may be others. The account by Josephus is generally taken to be authentic, but I have grave doubts about it on account of the fact that the same passage contains a different Jesus. In any case, even if it is authentic, James would not have been able to escape death by recanting his religious beliefs as he is the victim of the political machinations of the high priest Ananus.
In the account Eusebius quotes from Hegesippus, James is known as a much admired ascetic who is asked by priests and others to tell the people gathered for pass-over to not believe in Jesus anymore. He is put on some high spot in the Temple, but proceeds to tell everyone that Jesus is sitting in heaven, which gets him stoned and/or thrown off the Temple mount. Only in this last account would James be a true martyr who did not recant when given the chance.
Please note that these four are the *_best_* examples we have, and only James the brother of Jesus would truly qualify as someone who chose death rather than recant. All the other disciples fates are either unknown, which leaves open the possibility that they just went home and took up fishing again, or died of old age, like John, the other son of Zebedee.
So?
@@chloemartel9927 Hi Chloe, how have you been?
You asked: _"So?"_
Well, the historical evidence we have apparently does not support the argument that the apostles would not "die for a lie". Most of the disciples disappear from scripture and history altogether, and the ones that do make an appearance and are listed by Dr. Turek have their own problems. Which I briefly outline above.
I don't know whether this argument is one that you like to use to defend or justify your faith, but I don't think it is very good.
@@hansdemos6510
Hello Hans! Hope you have been doing well. I saw in your comment that you have suspicions in thinking that the Josephus reference is inauthentic but granted it’s authenticity for the sake of discussion. Quick question, are you a mythicist?
@@Mike00513 Hi Mike. I hope things are well with you. You said: _"Quick question, are you a mythicist?"_
I am not.
@@hansdemos6510
Interesting. In my experience, historicists usually grant the authenticity of both references.
If their god was brutally and ridiculously killed, why care about the death of his disciples !!!?
Because they were witnesses of the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and were willing to die for this belief as true.
@@araenasanchez All the disciples fled, leaving their god hanging on the cross to cry out loud: “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? » (Matthew 27:46)
Did Jesus know he is god!? Did his mother and his disciples also know that Jesus is god!?
If the disciples knew that Jesus is god and knew that god is all-powerful and omnipotent, why did they run away and some of them denied him several times like Peter and some of them betrayed him...!!!?
@@imraneamoura1027They knew that Christ was God after the ressurecction, not before. They were weak and afriad until they received Power from above on Pentecost.
@@MuttonBiryani1994
How do you know any of that even happened?
@@MuttonBiryani1994 Are you not ashamed of yourself or are you not afraid that God will send you to hell!!!?
Jesus said clearly to the Jews who wanted to kill him: “But now you seek to kill me, A MAN who has told you the truth that I have heard from God: Abraham did not do this. » (John 8:40), and you say: No, Jesus is god!!!
And also Peter, the best disciple of Jesus said in front of a large number of people including all the disciples of Jesus including Thomas: “Men of Israel, listen to these words! Jesus of Nazareth, this MAN (this MAN, this MAN, this MAN and not this God) to whom God bore witness before you by the miracles, the wonders and the signs which he wrought through him among you, as you know it yourselves. » (Acts of the Apostles 2:22), and no one rebelled against Peter to say to him: No, Jesus is god…, and you say: No, Jesus is god!!!
And also Paul said: “For there is one GOD, and one mediator between God and men, MAN (MAN, MAN, MAN and not the god) Jesus Christ. » (1 Timothy 2:5), and you say: No, Jesus is god!!!
Strange how Frank's answer is found in an expensive academic book on Amazon rather than in the Bible.
Nothing strange or wrong about that..
Because every time we use the Bible to defend a point the response is always "ThE BibLe IsN't EvIDeNcE"
I wonder what would happen if God just appeared and explained everything.
@@mattr.1887 What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Tryna make his way home?
People would still Deny him. Isn't what you just said practically what Christ did? Christ is God, he came and explained what's happening, and what you need to do to be saved. Yet here we are, people still deny him thousands of years later. Just like they did then.@@mattr.1887
Amazing that after asking a question, the questionnaire never clarifies the question simply allows Frank to answer it in the manner he so wishes...I guess when you have God on your side you know the answers before the question is asked....or it's a set-up
“Did disciples die saying Jesus rose?”
By Paulogia demonstrates the answer is NO.
Nowhere in the bible does it say this. It’s a modern day creationist apologetic.
Your "worship the Bible question is UTTERLY BUNK.
1. It ASSUMES God would ever do that.
2. If i go along with your GOOFY game, and i choose "God", you have proven nothing except your FOLLY!! Read Psalm 14:1 if you dont get it.
3. Still, if i go along and choose "Bible", you will NOT have proven that i pray to it and "woship" it.
Your question is very similar to that of the PHARISEES trying to trip up Jesus.
"If i had to guess your ancestors, i'd say one of them was a pharisee!"
It's literally in Corinthians in a creed 3 years after Jesus'death
Maybe you should pick other RUclipsrs that don't have smug and uncharitable jingles.
@@drillyourarguments
1. My question is a hypothetical question, not an assumption.
2. You’d be choosing god and not the bible.
3. By choosing the bible you show that you do in fact put a man made book of mythology before god.
I’ve no idea what the penalty for that is but I’d like to think any real god would understand your delusion and not revel in punishing you like the man made biblical god would.
@@DrakonPhD
What is?
Paulogia is an ex Christian who educated his way out of it.
You should go and listen to that video.
It’s very educational for you.
@@Moist._Robot In the red corner is the entire magisterium, the students of all the great libraries of the ancient world, Spurgeon, Wesley, Sproul, Sheen, Newman, Aquinas and a thousand others, in the blue corner is Paulogia....................
1) Because Peter was not arrested and later sentenced to death for believing in Jesus, Christians like Peter were arrested for the burning of Rome in 64 AD
2) Paul himself who was arrested in Jerusalem demanded to be tried as a Roman citizen to avoid being a Martyr when the Jews sentenced him to death for being a Christian
Paul didn´t even meet Jesus, ever.