For clarity, the Edge 2 supports hardware decoding on the system media player, so it handles playback of local 4K video without any issues. The issue with playback in the browser is because the Edge 2 is using software decoding.
Yeah. Problem I see with ARM based SBCs in this price range is that they are then competing with things like Celeron N5105 based systems. The x86 systems have similar IO capabilities, performance, and power consumption, but a big edge in compatibility. You can get a MeLE Quieter3 and just run 4K RUclips in the browser no problem for the same money. The GPIO and MIPI IO are the real differentiator for the ARM systems then. In many cases, you're better off with an x86 system if you don't need those (e.g. for server purposes the N5105 has 8x PCIe-3 lanes, whereas the RK3588S is PCIe-2 only)
That said, it would be cool to see a head to head showdown of the N5105 and the RK3588(S). Some performance comparisons, notes on compatibility limits, power consumption for the same CPU/GPU/Memory heavy benchmarks, etc... E.g., the RK3588 (not S) in the ROCK 5B has PCIe-3 (though only 4 lanes), so loading up the PCIe lanes with peripherals on it and a N5105 system in a server capacity and seeing which comes out ahead. Then for the RK3588 systems they have camera inputs and a NPU, so showing how you can load them with a couple of cameras and do object detection (or maybe something more sophisticated like produce inspection or houseplant monitoring) highlights how they are a sort of "AI edge" device, unlike the N5105 systems. At home I think there's a really solid case for these $200-300 systems being just enough server for a lot of use cases, with the advantage that they're small and quiet enough to squeeze in unnoticed behind a screen. It's interesting because there's been talk for a decade or so of ARM moving "up the stack" towards workstations and high powered servers and X86 moving "down the stack" towards power efficiency and cost optimization for things like smartphones and SBCs. There's probably no clearer intersection of those strategies in 2022 than the RK3588 to N5105 comparison. I know the emulator use case is in vogue on RUclips since it conjures up lots of nostalgia, but there's tons of mobile devices that are specifically tailored to that niche now, and at home it's probably sensible to just get something that can very solidly handle at least up to PS3 class systems, so these in-between (i.e. not really mobile and only kinda-sorta handles PS2) sort of devices aren't that interesting there. Heck, a Steam Deck with a dock is pretty hard to beat to cover both cases.
I should add that the Pentium N6005 in the Odroid-H3+ and similar is also a contender here. Basically the same as N5105 but a higher boost clock and bigger GPU. That board with the big full speed NVMe slot, slotted DDR4, SATA ports, and dual 2.5GbE NIC highlights the IO advantage of the x86. It has enough power and connectivity to work as a tiered-cache NAS which can fully saturate the 2.5GbE link and could double as a firewall. They’re also passively cooled, which is a bonus for something like this you might want to hide unnoticed behind a screen.
This board uses RK3588 has 4x Cortex A76 cores, the first desktop class ARM core - A76 core is from 2018 and has IPC equal to AMD Zen1 - A77 core from 2019 has 20% IPC uplift from A76 and equal IPC to AMD Zen 2 or Intel CoffeLake (9900K) - X1 core from 2020 has 25% IPC uplift form A77 and has IPC higher than Zen 3, equal to Intel Alder Lake - X2 core from 2021 has 10% IPC uplift from X1, basically eqal to new Zen 4 from 2022 - X3 core announced this year has 10% IPC uplift from X2 X3 has 80% higher IPC than A76 and clock speed 3.3 GHz (total 2.5 fold performance in compare to 2.4 GHz A76). Just imagine this cheap boards would use the latest available X3 core. These cheap SBCs would destroy overpriced PC market.
I think I'll use this SBC as a portable gaming rig in my sprinter van. The low energy consumption and ability to play 1000s of emulated games is perfect for long camping trips with friends.
Great machine, but not having a LAN port really is something that you don't want incase of Evil Twin attacks or wifi spoofing. Something for the company to consider during the development or maybe before the release of this product. Hope the new PI 5 / 16 will actually support the 4k video rendering because the PI4 is already almost able to run it but not fully yet.
The Pi hasn't had a pricing update in 3 years and is unavailable almost everywhere. Their next generation will likely see a significant price increase.
@@MichaelKlements I’d gladly pay extra for some beefier hardware personally given the support Pi offer. Will be interesting to see what direction they take their Pi 5.
@@MichaelKlements they historically try to keep their price point and have for the most part, that price hike would be ridiculous and off brand for sure. They are sold out and marked up because of scalpers cannibalizing the love for the rpi . . . you know like how you threw its name in your unrelated video for clout.
Not sure it's a fair comparison to an RPi..afterall, their mantra has always been to stuff as much as they can onto a specific-sized board for ~$35 (adjusting for inflation and part availability).
It might not be a fair comparison based on list prices, but if the Honda is currently selling for the same price as the Ferrari because they're as rare as hens teeth then it's pretty easy to see why people would choose this as an alternative.
Great video! Thank you for posting. What do you think about me using this as a nas for Plex I want to hook up to 18 terabyte Western digital external hard drives. Just curious to what your opinion is. I'm not a very computer savvy person trying to build a Nas is just overwhelming for me and buying one is just too expensive right now and then I'm not even sure if my western digitals would fit inside one if I made one
It's a good SBC but isn't there yet. For that money I would get a mini gaming PC at least I can watch 4k and play moderate games with no problem with around 10-30 W efficiency.
It was prominently mentioned at the top of the page but seems to have been removed. It is still mentioned under Specifications at the bottom of the page. "Basic" and "Pro" essentially just refer to the two RAM and storage configurations - basic is 8GB & 32GB and the pro is 16GB & 64GB
@@MichaelKlements Thank you so much. I wonder why they changed it? Also have you looked at the upcoming Khadas Mind Workstation? Looks high dollar, but also very cool. If they take that to production i think it's a good sign they're doing well as a company.
Great vid. I did not know this SBC uses software encoding to watch vids from the WEB and hardware encoding from local sources. That explains a lot in reference to the Raspberry Pi boards or are they different?
Hardware video decoding in browsers on ARM Linux is a mess. You can try to make the Rockchip driver work with kernel 5.10 and you need to patch the browser.
The Raspberry Pi official image has a Chrome build which they have patched to use the hardware decoding on the RasPi (at least for RasPi 4B and CM4). It is a bit of a hodge-podge effort which requires forcing sites like RUclips to serve videos in H264, IIRC. Most other ARM chips don't have similar setups, so their hardware decoding capabilities go unused in the browser.
ummmmm @ 3:16 I hope you pulled the plastic sheet off of BOTH SIDES of the thermal pad..... you only showed one side being taken off, then cut to putting the heat sink/fan on and thought maybe I should bring it up on the SLIM CHANCE you didn't remove it.... although I don't think the chip get hot enough for this to matter to th3e point of hurting anything lol :)
I don't think so, the support, community support and applications will be far less for the Khadas, the mighty Raspberry Pi support, software documentation and the Raspberry Foundation is fab and millions of projects to get the Raspberry to perform is truly amazing even in the professional and business world, the reason you can buy them is they are in such demand, as soon as they are manufactured they are sold out. Michael Klements why don't you start a support group and Foundation for the Khadas on your channel, fantastic opportunity for you
Yes, this is something I've spoken about in my Pi alternatives video. There are a lot of great products to rival the Pi in terms of hardware, but the community and software support is way behind. The shortage of Pis is however forcing people to look at alternatives and a lot more development work is being done on other platforms now.
@@MichaelKlements not just development but community work needs to be done if a product is to become popular with good supportt from the supplier, software and good documentation needs to be really good if you aim to sell millions like the Raspberry pi
I think the Orange Pi 800 is a better deal even if you need to buy a power supply. I also am a fan of the VGA. Ali-Express has them at just under a hundred dollars.
I haven't tried the Orange Pi 800 out yet but it also looks good. I guess that's a good alternative if you're using it as a daily driver, this is great for a media player or server that you can tuck in behind your TV or monitor.
@@LivingLinux Yeah, personally the level of performance of the RK3588 is about what I'd consider a bare minimum these days for a desktop for regular use. Anything slower and you start to feel the lag a lot in normal browser activities and will just choke with any sort of content creation. RK3399 performance is ok for occasional toy usage and obviously better than nothing if it's all you can afford, but the RK3588 is not just much faster but has enough IO to handle, e.g., serving out a fast SSD over the network. Though as I highlighted in a comment above, it starts to compete with N5105 systems that would tend to be more practical as desktops.
@@australai well, rk3399 has 4x pci 2.0 lanes that can drive an ssd just fine (mine is a cheap one and reads reach 1.2 GB/S). Decent, but they aren't exposed on the opi800 sadly.
@@australai once you overclock rk3399 to 2.2/1.8 then it works great. But yeah, not even close to rk3588..but rk3399 runs mainline, today, with mesa drivers.
I think we can get a decent arm sbc desktop capable pc with this soc during next year or so. It will not be bleeding edge at all, but it will have mainline support with panfrost and then it would be a great linux pc. The soc price will drop considerably after an year on the market. Then it will make sense, right now it doesnt.
This board uses RK3588 has 4x Cortex A76 cores, the first desktop class ARM core - A76 core is from 2018 and has IPC equal to AMD Zen1 - A77 core from 2019 has 20% IPC uplift from A76 and equal IPC to AMD Zen 2 or Intel CoffeLake (9900K) - X1 core from 2020 has 25% IPC uplift form A77 and has IPC higher than Zen 3, equal to Intel Alder Lake - X2 core from 2021 has 10% IPC uplift from X1, basically eqal to new Zen 4 from 2022 - X3 core announced this year has 10% IPC uplift from X2 X3 has 80% higher IPC than A76 and clock speed 3.3 GHz (total 2.5 fold performance in compare to 2.4 GHz A76). Just imagine this cheap boards would use the latest available X3 core. These cheap SBCs would destroy overpriced PC market.
@@arm-power well, then problem there is price. There is no company willing to make X2/X3 based pcs at the scale that would justify a small profit per unit. I think we have to deal with much older platforms for now..
@@microlinux Well there are some new ARM laptops using cheap Snapdragon 7c (A76) and Mediatek Kompanio 1380 (even better A78). The best laptop ARM SoC is Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 with X1 which is two years old and is greatly overpriced. Too bad that there is no single X2 chip. What I like about X2 and X3 is that those are 64-bit only. They thrown away 32-bit backward compatibility (for ARMv7). PCs x86 keep even 16-bit compatibility 286 mode which makes it bloated. Anyway, A76 in SBC is great uplift because A72 core from RPi4 has almost half IPC to A76. However it could be much bigger with X3 on board. I guess the top tier X-core has also top tier license price.
@@microlinux Khadas has a device in the works called the Khadas Mind Workstation that looks very interesting. The only thing is.. I don't think it's going to be affordable. It's a slim-line enclosure as the core, then a workstation dock, and then a GPU box with a RTX4060. By the time you have all 3 I'm guessing it's past a grand.
Hi Michael, Since you suggest it, I do have a question or two! ;-) . I have no intentions of doing coding/programing on the SBC I wan tot buy. My goal is to build a navigational system for my sailboat. Also to use it on occasion to play a downloaded movie while at anchor. Im inspired by: ruclips.net/video/Q0sEpgzhHTE/видео.html . 1- I really like the Khadas products, for the application(s) above what would you suggest? the VIM or the Edge? Other? In fact what are the differences and target markets between the two? Is one a developer platform more than a PC? 2- Given that NVMe is faster and safer than a SIMM card, is it possible to install the OS on a PCIe NVMe/M.2 card? Would there be a bottleneck like with the RPi? Actually my 2 questions would be for anyone wanting to make a suggestion... Thanking you in advance! a.
If you're wanting to use it for media playback as well then I'd go with the this board or the VIM 4, the VIM has an M.2 slot so it would be easier to mount an SSD directly onto it for media storage. Running the OS from the onboard eMMC storage is probably fine for your application, I wouldn't try booting from an external drive. The VIM also has an Ethernet port if you prefer a hardwired connection to your router.
It depends on what you're planning on using it for, if you're going to be using it as a daily driver then I'd probably still go with the Beelink running Windows 11 (far less software and driver compatability issues than running Linux). If you're wanting to run Linux on it then this is a great alternative.
@@MichaelKlements I am still looking at the Beelink, I dont use Windows at all, so Linux and maybe BSD. The Edge pro 2 does not have Ethernet, I am guessing there is a break out board.
I bet rpi5 main new feature will be TPM :) although I don't need it at all. New pi should have some m.2 with at least 2x pcie 3.0, hopefully 4x. Plus newer ARM cores with some small ones for power efficiency. Hopefully. For now they need just to have rpis available so they still can sell old, cheap components and earn on that :)
And btw? All USB 3.0? Why the heck is USB2 still even a thing? I want, support for M.2, and more ram options. No need to continue the SD card thing. No need.
The price is a massive downside especially compared to a RPi and, what it seems to lack, is the capability for PCIe. That's something, I'm actually missing at this price point. Sure, any x86 machine at this price point ($239$) would blow it out of the water, let alone spending €100€ more and have the RAM, too - new! - but I like the idea of these small boards. Especially with one or two PCIe express slots. Being "this" powerful and having a good integration would make them quite nice for a low power, small profile NAS built or whatever in this direction. But the lack of PCIe expandability makes it unviable for such tasks :/ Sadly. I'll keep an eye out and hope the RPi 5 will have it's compute module again or will add something like a "performance" variant which is more expensive but has more power to it so it can do some more complicated tasks or have better expandability (i.e. two PCIe slots instead of one). It's truly mindblowing how small these things are for the power they hold within. Imagine having it next to a PS2! Same with my Raspberry and my SNES. Looks amazing! :D
It is expensive in comparison to some of the other products available, although it is usually a bit more powerful when compared to similar sized SBCs. I agree, the lack of Ethernet and PCIe really lets the Edge 2 down. I suspect they did away with these to better differentiate it from their VIM 4 but I think they should rather have made some other changes. It's amazing to think back to when a game like GTA Vice City came out - my PC could barely handle it at the time and now it runs on a credit card sized computer using 6W of power.
@@MichaelKlements yes! That is very much true! I'm not against it, it's honestly just a bit sad seeing this product arbitrarily stripped down but yeah, maybe it's because of the VIM. Need to look that one up, too! And yes! That's also correct. I mean, as stupid as it sounds, Minecraft Servers on RPis, Handhelds for Retrogames built with RPis... Now this machine which is strong and uses so little power. Devices that used to draw loads of power and could barely run the games could totally be killed by just making your Smart TV like a couple of centimeters bigger and fitting this device in while not really affecting the energy bill. It's crazy! I'm stoked about their product line and what else they might offer in the future as well!
I would mainly use this as a print server for 3D printers. Anybody tried OctoPrint or Klipper on this device with any success? It is honestly overkill for my purpose but as stated in another comment, with the RPI being so overly priced due to the shortages this becomes a viable option.
@@MichaelKlements I bought an orange Pi 4 lts and it has been. Other g but a headache. WiFi only connects to 2.4ghz and it's axshot in the dark if it will stay connected or not. Was not impressed.
Ah ok, I've only heard good things from people who have used OrangePi boards for Octoprint (I've never used it myself). I tend to use a wired connection for devices that need to remain connected to my network as the WiFi adaptors in a lot of these boards are pretty poor.
nothing against you or your video. but with the prices and technical data you really have to ask yourself whether the product makes any sense at all. I think in this price segment, a cheap mini PC usually makes more sense and the components such as RAM or storage can be swapped out.
I think it depends on the use case - if you're going to be using it as a desktop computer then a mini PC is definitely a better option. If you're needing something portable then the 4-10W power consumption of the Edge 2 is impossible for a mini PC to beat. As a home server running 24/7, the 30-50W additional power draw on a mini PC adds up to around $50-100 a year in electricicty costs over the Edge 2.
For the same price you can get a mobo + cpu + ram + gpu from aliexpress 😅 For 35$ you can get a raspberry pi 4 in France This is my personal opinion but this card is not worth it just like the $300 lattepanda of the time. Whether it's RPI or other brands the only interest is the low cost. If you have to pay 300$ you might as well go for a real computer ... (For 300 bucks you can get a xeon homelab with GPU)
its scb and low power bad combo if want play 4k what was trouble on pc old days lol. rpi zero is faster than amiga and amiga is faster than you need xD
I hope the Raspberry Pi 5 is MUCH BETTER THAN THIS...... Personally I think if these SBC companies advertise them to be able to do 4k 60hz then they should be able to playback video FLAWLESSLY at that resolution... yet NONE DO!! So I REALLY HOPE that the Rasp Pi 5 REALLY CAN playback RUclips @ 4K/60 ( PLUS playback saved videos ) and there is MUCH BETTER hardware decoding/encoding and 3D .... I just feel like all of these SBC's with Mali GPU's fall flat when it comes to hi-res video.... yea there are some exceptions out there, but they aren't cheap... and when I think of the small form factor SBC (around the size of the Rasp Pi 4B) I think of affordable computing..... ...I think we ALL NEED TO come to the realization that the days of CHEAP Rasp Pi (from the manufacturer) are behind us and far away ahead of us... with the economy in the crapper (ALL OVER THE WORLD) and it only getting worse, I think the Rasp Pi 5 will have a target of 'UNDER $75' of it's going to performance based .... but I think they will aim for features over performance just to keep it cheap
This has more to do with the software than the capability of the hardware. Most of these boards, this one included, are able to do hardware decoding but it's often not properly supported in the software so playback defaults to software decoding which is much more resource intensive. Taking a look at other more recently released boards, I'd be really surprised if the Pi 5 comes in under $100 for their "flagship" model.
Perhaps none do when running Linux at the moment. But with Android I was able to play 4K RUclips and record it in 4K with a screen recorder on a RK3588 board.
Dude, the mali gpus are far more featured than the videocores. Second, the mali gpu does nothing regarding video decoding/encoding, it's the vpu that does that. Rpi4 is marketing 4k and inside the browser it's still software decoding after all this years... and they have way more resources to do it way better.
It's rubbish, can't even play back video (4K) under the linux system they recommend, so you use android you say - well that's still a beta and just try the level of widevine you get for video playback Rockchips are dodgy at best. Just because you can run a few linux apps that would run on a potato doesn't mean it's any good and it is definitely overpriced as it's not just the board you buy you have to separately buy a power supply and the cpu cooler and whatever peripherals you need. The Pi is much better because it's software is much better, it would seem you reviewers forget about that.
Has the pi vpu decoding on android? No, inside vlc, yes, just on armhf, not properly on aarch64, inside the browser..NO. they use some hacks, but not proper VPU acceleration. The software definitely sucks on rpi, even with the resources they have.
@@michaelbradley7704 no idea what you said, but yeah, being a pi4 user for the last years (even had a relatively successful channel/project since I was the maker of twisteros alongside another guys). Rpi4 software support sucks, the hw is worst.
@@michaelbradley7704 ahh, and if you meant that the software support on this board is horrible... you are asking vpu inside the browser whenever rpi doesn't have it TODAY, more than 3 years later.
If thats a rPI you hope for I think you'll get dissappointed und utterly misunderstood the goals of the PiProject. There's a reason this costs 270+ and the rPI 40+
Nice hardware, but the active cooler really puts me off. Nobody really cares to keep the board to a "credit card" size, just do what Odroid N2 did and put a large heatsink on the bottom, NO fan.
Yeah it depends on what you're going to be using it for and how hard it's going to be working, then fan is removable from the heatsink if you'd like a passive solution.
@@MichaelKlements I guess my point is the N2 barely gets warm, and the cost of the passive cooler included with the N2 is probably similar to the active cooler included with all the Khadas boards. So I don't get why, other than to keep the board really small. I really prefer the Odroid N2 design, large heatsink, CPU on the bottom. It works.
I think that's why they've made the cooler an optional accessory, the Edge 2 doesn't include the cooler, you need to buy it (or another solution) separately
@@MichaelKlements yep and that makes the N2 more appealing, the heatsink is already mounted on the bottom. That is my point I guess. The form factor of the Odroid N2 is simply better.
For clarity, the Edge 2 supports hardware decoding on the system media player, so it handles playback of local 4K video without any issues. The issue with playback in the browser is because the Edge 2 is using software decoding.
Yeah. Problem I see with ARM based SBCs in this price range is that they are then competing with things like Celeron N5105 based systems. The x86 systems have similar IO capabilities, performance, and power consumption, but a big edge in compatibility. You can get a MeLE Quieter3 and just run 4K RUclips in the browser no problem for the same money. The GPIO and MIPI IO are the real differentiator for the ARM systems then. In many cases, you're better off with an x86 system if you don't need those (e.g. for server purposes the N5105 has 8x PCIe-3 lanes, whereas the RK3588S is PCIe-2 only)
That said, it would be cool to see a head to head showdown of the N5105 and the RK3588(S). Some performance comparisons, notes on compatibility limits, power consumption for the same CPU/GPU/Memory heavy benchmarks, etc...
E.g., the RK3588 (not S) in the ROCK 5B has PCIe-3 (though only 4 lanes), so loading up the PCIe lanes with peripherals on it and a N5105 system in a server capacity and seeing which comes out ahead. Then for the RK3588 systems they have camera inputs and a NPU, so showing how you can load them with a couple of cameras and do object detection (or maybe something more sophisticated like produce inspection or houseplant monitoring) highlights how they are a sort of "AI edge" device, unlike the N5105 systems. At home I think there's a really solid case for these $200-300 systems being just enough server for a lot of use cases, with the advantage that they're small and quiet enough to squeeze in unnoticed behind a screen.
It's interesting because there's been talk for a decade or so of ARM moving "up the stack" towards workstations and high powered servers and X86 moving "down the stack" towards power efficiency and cost optimization for things like smartphones and SBCs. There's probably no clearer intersection of those strategies in 2022 than the RK3588 to N5105 comparison.
I know the emulator use case is in vogue on RUclips since it conjures up lots of nostalgia, but there's tons of mobile devices that are specifically tailored to that niche now, and at home it's probably sensible to just get something that can very solidly handle at least up to PS3 class systems, so these in-between (i.e. not really mobile and only kinda-sorta handles PS2) sort of devices aren't that interesting there. Heck, a Steam Deck with a dock is pretty hard to beat to cover both cases.
I should add that the Pentium N6005 in the Odroid-H3+ and similar is also a contender here. Basically the same as N5105 but a higher boost clock and bigger GPU. That board with the big full speed NVMe slot, slotted DDR4, SATA ports, and dual 2.5GbE NIC highlights the IO advantage of the x86. It has enough power and connectivity to work as a tiered-cache NAS which can fully saturate the 2.5GbE link and could double as a firewall. They’re also passively cooled, which is a bonus for something like this you might want to hide unnoticed behind a screen.
Yes, arm linux is on it's infancy and browser's are the worst part of it.
This board uses RK3588 has 4x Cortex A76 cores, the first desktop class ARM core
- A76 core is from 2018 and has IPC equal to AMD Zen1
- A77 core from 2019 has 20% IPC uplift from A76 and equal IPC to AMD Zen 2 or Intel CoffeLake (9900K)
- X1 core from 2020 has 25% IPC uplift form A77 and has IPC higher than Zen 3, equal to Intel Alder Lake
- X2 core from 2021 has 10% IPC uplift from X1, basically eqal to new Zen 4 from 2022
- X3 core announced this year has 10% IPC uplift from X2
X3 has 80% higher IPC than A76 and clock speed 3.3 GHz (total 2.5 fold performance in compare to 2.4 GHz A76).
Just imagine this cheap boards would use the latest available X3 core. These cheap SBCs would destroy overpriced PC market.
Good review, the no RJ45 is a killer for me.
I think I'll use this SBC as a portable gaming rig in my sprinter van. The low energy consumption and ability to play 1000s of emulated games is perfect for long camping trips with friends.
It makes an awesome portable gaming rig and at 6-10W you'd get decent run time on a camper van battery.
Camping with video games?
@@sophisticatedmorons you're missing out.
Gotta give it a try someday
Great machine, but not having a LAN port really is something that you don't want incase of Evil Twin attacks or wifi spoofing. Something for the company to consider during the development or maybe before the release of this product. Hope the new PI 5 / 16 will actually support the 4k video rendering because the PI4 is already almost able to run it but not fully yet.
Ya, no lan port is a deal breaker for me. A small device but a dongle hanging off of it misses the whole point of being a compact unit.
That's a $200+ board. Totally different market segment to Raspberry Pi.
The Pi hasn't had a pricing update in 3 years and is unavailable almost everywhere. Their next generation will likely see a significant price increase.
@@MichaelKlements I’d gladly pay extra for some beefier hardware personally given the support Pi offer. Will be interesting to see what direction they take their Pi 5.
@@MichaelKlements they historically try to keep their price point and have for the most part, that price hike would be ridiculous and off brand for sure. They are sold out and marked up because of scalpers cannibalizing the love for the rpi . . . you know like how you threw its name in your unrelated video for clout.
@@MichaelKlements
Will have to compete with $60 Orange Pi 5
@@MichaelKlementsI think OP made a valid comment. Based on this title, we expect to compare it to the same pi we pick up off a store shelf
Dude, this is the only video that works. Thanks for posting!
What's REALLY important with this board is a feature that many other boards don't have: USB 3.1. Or rather, video over USB-C (probably DisplayPort).
Not sure it's a fair comparison to an RPi..afterall, their mantra has always been to stuff as much as they can onto a specific-sized board for ~$35 (adjusting for inflation and part availability).
I hope the next honda car is as good as this ferrari!
@@MrNoipe Perfect analogy.
It might not be a fair comparison based on list prices, but if the Honda is currently selling for the same price as the Ferrari because they're as rare as hens teeth then it's pretty easy to see why people would choose this as an alternative.
RPie foundation have really lost the plot on that whole deal, for many reasons
After inflation a $35 board probably won’t get you more than a fancy esp32
Can anyone tell me why this is so much more expensive than the orange pi 5? Same soc + better io, the op5 is now preordered at $60 4gb and $75 8gb
Great video! Thank you for posting. What do you think about me using this as a nas for Plex I want to hook up to 18 terabyte Western digital external hard drives. Just curious to what your opinion is. I'm not a very computer savvy person trying to build a Nas is just overwhelming for me and buying one is just too expensive right now and then I'm not even sure if my western digitals would fit inside one if I made one
this actually looks really good. payday's just around the corner. i might get one!
"This is a new Mercedes s-class. I hope the Raspberry Pi N is this good". People compare RPi with a number of things it just doesn't try to compete
It's a good SBC but isn't there yet. For that money I would get a mini gaming PC at least I can watch 4k and play moderate games with no problem with around 10-30 W efficiency.
Decent board but the price is pretty high. Keep it under $100 and it might be competitive.
100 is much expensive for a small board id rather buy mini pc or full size desktop at the same price
On their website there's no mention of the Edge 2 Pro. Only the Edge. Did you add the Pro or am I missing it somehow?
It was prominently mentioned at the top of the page but seems to have been removed. It is still mentioned under Specifications at the bottom of the page.
"Basic" and "Pro" essentially just refer to the two RAM and storage configurations - basic is 8GB & 32GB and the pro is 16GB & 64GB
@@MichaelKlements Thank you so much. I wonder why they changed it?
Also have you looked at the upcoming Khadas Mind Workstation? Looks high dollar, but also very cool.
If they take that to production i think it's a good sign they're doing well as a company.
The lack of Ethernet on an SBC who’s base model is €199 is really disappointing
Yeah I'm not really sure why they decided to do away with it, particuarly on a board which seems to be aimed at being a media player/media server
Maybe they figured people could just use a USB 3.1 dock or Ethernet adapter if they really wanted it?
Great vid. I did not know this SBC uses software encoding to watch vids from the WEB and hardware encoding from local sources. That explains a lot in reference to the Raspberry Pi boards or are they different?
Raspberry Pi boards are simialr as well, although they have far less powerful hardware encoding capabilities
Hardware video decoding in browsers on ARM Linux is a mess. You can try to make the Rockchip driver work with kernel 5.10 and you need to patch the browser.
The Raspberry Pi official image has a Chrome build which they have patched to use the hardware decoding on the RasPi (at least for RasPi 4B and CM4). It is a bit of a hodge-podge effort which requires forcing sites like RUclips to serve videos in H264, IIRC. Most other ARM chips don't have similar setups, so their hardware decoding capabilities go unused in the browser.
ummmmm @ 3:16 I hope you pulled the plastic sheet off of BOTH SIDES of the thermal pad..... you only showed one side being taken off, then cut to putting the heat sink/fan on and thought maybe I should bring it up on the SLIM CHANCE you didn't remove it.... although I don't think the chip get hot enough for this to matter to th3e point of hurting anything lol :)
Yes I did remove the film from both sides haha, but well picked up on
I don't think so, the support, community support and applications will be far less for the Khadas, the mighty Raspberry Pi support, software documentation and the Raspberry Foundation is fab and millions of projects to get the Raspberry to perform is truly amazing even in the professional and business world, the reason you can buy them is they are in such demand, as soon as they are manufactured they are sold out. Michael Klements why don't you start a support group and Foundation for the Khadas on your channel, fantastic opportunity for you
Yes, this is something I've spoken about in my Pi alternatives video. There are a lot of great products to rival the Pi in terms of hardware, but the community and software support is way behind.
The shortage of Pis is however forcing people to look at alternatives and a lot more development work is being done on other platforms now.
@@MichaelKlements not just development but community work needs to be done if a product is to become popular with good supportt from the supplier, software and good documentation needs to be really good if you aim to sell millions like the Raspberry pi
thank u helped me a lotNice tutorial.... Very helpful
I think the Orange Pi 800 is a better deal even if you need to buy a power supply. I also am a fan of the VGA. Ali-Express has them at just under a hundred dollars.
I haven't tried the Orange Pi 800 out yet but it also looks good. I guess that's a good alternative if you're using it as a daily driver, this is great for a media player or server that you can tuck in behind your TV or monitor.
The Pi 800 is ony a better deal when you don't need the performance of the RK3588S. It's roughly three times faster than the RK3399 in the Pi 800.
@@LivingLinux Yeah, personally the level of performance of the RK3588 is about what I'd consider a bare minimum these days for a desktop for regular use. Anything slower and you start to feel the lag a lot in normal browser activities and will just choke with any sort of content creation. RK3399 performance is ok for occasional toy usage and obviously better than nothing if it's all you can afford, but the RK3588 is not just much faster but has enough IO to handle, e.g., serving out a fast SSD over the network. Though as I highlighted in a comment above, it starts to compete with N5105 systems that would tend to be more practical as desktops.
@@australai well, rk3399 has 4x pci 2.0 lanes that can drive an ssd just fine (mine is a cheap one and reads reach 1.2 GB/S). Decent, but they aren't exposed on the opi800 sadly.
@@australai once you overclock rk3399 to 2.2/1.8 then it works great. But yeah, not even close to rk3588..but rk3399 runs mainline, today, with mesa drivers.
I think we can get a decent arm sbc desktop capable pc with this soc during next year or so. It will not be bleeding edge at all, but it will have mainline support with panfrost and then it would be a great linux pc. The soc price will drop considerably after an year on the market. Then it will make sense, right now it doesnt.
This board uses RK3588 has 4x Cortex A76 cores, the first desktop class ARM core
- A76 core is from 2018 and has IPC equal to AMD Zen1
- A77 core from 2019 has 20% IPC uplift from A76 and equal IPC to AMD Zen 2 or Intel CoffeLake (9900K)
- X1 core from 2020 has 25% IPC uplift form A77 and has IPC higher than Zen 3, equal to Intel Alder Lake
- X2 core from 2021 has 10% IPC uplift from X1, basically eqal to new Zen 4 from 2022
- X3 core announced this year has 10% IPC uplift from X2
X3 has 80% higher IPC than A76 and clock speed 3.3 GHz (total 2.5 fold performance in compare to 2.4 GHz A76).
Just imagine this cheap boards would use the latest available X3 core. These cheap SBCs would destroy overpriced PC market.
@@arm-power well, then problem there is price. There is no company willing to make X2/X3 based pcs at the scale that would justify a small profit per unit. I think we have to deal with much older platforms for now..
@@microlinux Well there are some new ARM laptops using cheap Snapdragon 7c (A76) and Mediatek Kompanio 1380 (even better A78). The best laptop ARM SoC is Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 with X1 which is two years old and is greatly overpriced.
Too bad that there is no single X2 chip. What I like about X2 and X3 is that those are 64-bit only. They thrown away 32-bit backward compatibility (for ARMv7). PCs x86 keep even 16-bit compatibility 286 mode which makes it bloated.
Anyway, A76 in SBC is great uplift because A72 core from RPi4 has almost half IPC to A76. However it could be much bigger with X3 on board.
I guess the top tier X-core has also top tier license price.
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@@microlinux Khadas has a device in the works called the Khadas Mind Workstation that looks very interesting.
The only thing is.. I don't think it's going to be affordable. It's a slim-line enclosure as the core, then a workstation dock, and then a GPU box with a RTX4060.
By the time you have all 3 I'm guessing it's past a grand.
i want to know about remote desktop 720p, 1080p and 4K stream speed test. same network and different network as well.
how come it has an 8k decoder but 4k video is laggy?
RUclips. That's why.
Because it's using software decoding when playing back video in the browser, playback of 4K local files runs smoothly
Do they plan on making use of the graphics accelerator for the browser and streaming apps?
This seems to be a common issue with SBCs, they have the hardare available but the software lags behind
you should review the latte panda 3 delta
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So what's wrong with the driver that the browser doesn't use the GPU
Thanks for the video, may I ask if it is possible to connect an M2 NVMe drive and boot from it?
The VIM4 is a better alternative if you want to hook up an M.2 drive directly, this doesn't have any M.2 ports.
@@MichaelKlements hey thanks! Maybe I will look at a Orange Pi 5 or something. Thanks!
@@MichaelKlements do you know if it supports SATA? Thanks again.
Hi Michael,
Since you suggest it, I do have a question or two! ;-)
.
I have no intentions of doing coding/programing on the SBC I wan tot buy. My goal is to build a navigational system for my sailboat.
Also to use it on occasion to play a downloaded movie while at anchor.
Im inspired by: ruclips.net/video/Q0sEpgzhHTE/видео.html
.
1- I really like the Khadas products, for the application(s) above what would you suggest? the VIM or the Edge? Other?
In fact what are the differences and target markets between the two? Is one a developer platform more than a PC?
2- Given that NVMe is faster and safer than a SIMM card, is it possible to install the OS on a PCIe NVMe/M.2 card?
Would there be a bottleneck like with the RPi?
Actually my 2 questions would be for anyone wanting to make a suggestion...
Thanking you in advance!
a.
If you're wanting to use it for media playback as well then I'd go with the this board or the VIM 4, the VIM has an M.2 slot so it would be easier to mount an SSD directly onto it for media storage. Running the OS from the onboard eMMC storage is probably fine for your application, I wouldn't try booting from an external drive. The VIM also has an Ethernet port if you prefer a hardwired connection to your router.
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Always love your videos !
so what about temps and cpu load?
Should I get one of these, or a mini PC with AMD 4700u (8core) like a Beelink?
It depends on what you're planning on using it for, if you're going to be using it as a daily driver then I'd probably still go with the Beelink running Windows 11 (far less software and driver compatability issues than running Linux). If you're wanting to run Linux on it then this is a great alternative.
@@MichaelKlements I am still looking at the Beelink, I dont use Windows at all, so Linux and maybe BSD. The Edge pro 2 does not have Ethernet, I am guessing there is a break out board.
I bet rpi5 main new feature will be TPM :) although I don't need it at all. New pi should have some m.2 with at least 2x pcie 3.0, hopefully 4x. Plus newer ARM cores with some small ones for power efficiency. Hopefully. For now they need just to have rpis available so they still can sell old, cheap components and earn on that :)
And btw? All USB 3.0? Why the heck is USB2 still even a thing? I want, support for M.2, and more ram options. No need to continue the SD card thing. No need.
The price is a massive downside especially compared to a RPi and, what it seems to lack, is the capability for PCIe. That's something, I'm actually missing at this price point. Sure, any x86 machine at this price point ($239$) would blow it out of the water, let alone spending €100€ more and have the RAM, too - new! - but I like the idea of these small boards. Especially with one or two PCIe express slots. Being "this" powerful and having a good integration would make them quite nice for a low power, small profile NAS built or whatever in this direction.
But the lack of PCIe expandability makes it unviable for such tasks :/
Sadly. I'll keep an eye out and hope the RPi 5 will have it's compute module again or will add something like a "performance" variant which is more expensive but has more power to it so it can do some more complicated tasks or have better expandability (i.e. two PCIe slots instead of one).
It's truly mindblowing how small these things are for the power they hold within. Imagine having it next to a PS2!
Same with my Raspberry and my SNES. Looks amazing! :D
It is expensive in comparison to some of the other products available, although it is usually a bit more powerful when compared to similar sized SBCs.
I agree, the lack of Ethernet and PCIe really lets the Edge 2 down. I suspect they did away with these to better differentiate it from their VIM 4 but I think they should rather have made some other changes.
It's amazing to think back to when a game like GTA Vice City came out - my PC could barely handle it at the time and now it runs on a credit card sized computer using 6W of power.
@@MichaelKlements yes! That is very much true! I'm not against it, it's honestly just a bit sad seeing this product arbitrarily stripped down but yeah, maybe it's because of the VIM. Need to look that one up, too!
And yes! That's also correct. I mean, as stupid as it sounds, Minecraft Servers on RPis, Handhelds for Retrogames built with RPis... Now this machine which is strong and uses so little power. Devices that used to draw loads of power and could barely run the games could totally be killed by just making your Smart TV like a couple of centimeters bigger and fitting this device in while not really affecting the energy bill.
It's crazy!
I'm stoked about their product line and what else they might offer in the future as well!
not having a wired lan is a serious lack, imho
i'm waiting for some company to integrste some laptop gpu into an SBC as well as an x86 processor option for those who have light windows apps.
are those tiny builds used for streaming and work ?
People primarily use them as media players or to run a small home server using Docker or OMV.
Where to buy Raspberry Pi 5? and how much money?
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I soooo wish Kadas would add support for M.2 NVMe, or at least M.2 SATA. 😢
I would mainly use this as a print server for 3D printers. Anybody tried OctoPrint or Klipper on this device with any success? It is honestly overkill for my purpose but as stated in another comment, with the RPI being so overly priced due to the shortages this becomes a viable option.
For something like OctoPrint you could probably use a board like the OrangePi 3 LTS and save some money
@@MichaelKlements I bought an orange Pi 4 lts and it has been. Other g but a headache. WiFi only connects to 2.4ghz and it's axshot in the dark if it will stay connected or not. Was not impressed.
Ah ok, I've only heard good things from people who have used OrangePi boards for Octoprint (I've never used it myself). I tend to use a wired connection for devices that need to remain connected to my network as the WiFi adaptors in a lot of these boards are pretty poor.
I run octoprint on a raspi 3, so.
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PCIe is missing on board, but chip has always free PCIe-x4 Gen3
Yes, it would have been nice to bring these out to expansion ports on the bottom
you are so cool dude wtf
nothing against you or your video. but with the prices and technical data you really have to ask yourself whether the product makes any sense at all. I think in this price segment, a cheap mini PC usually makes more sense and the components such as RAM or storage can be swapped out.
I think it depends on the use case - if you're going to be using it as a desktop computer then a mini PC is definitely a better option. If you're needing something portable then the 4-10W power consumption of the Edge 2 is impossible for a mini PC to beat. As a home server running 24/7, the 30-50W additional power draw on a mini PC adds up to around $50-100 a year in electricicty costs over the Edge 2.
Where is the audio out jack?
super erklärt, ich wünschte ich könnte mir so einen leisten
For the same price you can get a mobo + cpu + ram + gpu from aliexpress 😅 For 35$ you can get a raspberry pi 4 in France
This is my personal opinion but this card is not worth it just like the $300 lattepanda of the time. Whether it's RPI or other brands the only interest is the low cost. If you have to pay 300$ you might as well go for a real computer ... (For 300 bucks you can get a xeon homelab with GPU)
$200 is how much a new barebone Raspberry Pi 4b with 8GB RAM is going for now-a-days. Case, power supply, SD card extra.
Too expensive. You're *most* of the way towards a Latte Panda 3 Delta and that's just so much more.
its scb and low power bad combo if want play 4k what was trouble on pc old days lol.
rpi zero is faster than amiga and amiga is faster than you need xD
Too expensive for the specs. Orange pi is cheaper and better. But I do hope RPi 5 is coming soon.
I have no idea why my firestick 4k can do 4k and this can't
Because the software is better written for the Firestick
but it cost 5x the price of original raspberry pi concept, making it ... well just totally something else
I hope the Raspberry Pi 5 is MUCH BETTER THAN THIS...... Personally I think if these SBC companies advertise them to be able to do 4k 60hz then they should be able to playback video FLAWLESSLY at that resolution... yet NONE DO!!
So I REALLY HOPE that the Rasp Pi 5 REALLY CAN playback RUclips @ 4K/60 ( PLUS playback saved videos ) and there is MUCH BETTER hardware decoding/encoding and 3D .... I just feel like all of these SBC's with Mali GPU's fall flat when it comes to hi-res video.... yea there are some exceptions out there, but they aren't cheap... and when I think of the small form factor SBC (around the size of the Rasp Pi 4B) I think of affordable computing.....
...I think we ALL NEED TO come to the realization that the days of CHEAP Rasp Pi (from the manufacturer) are behind us and far away ahead of us... with the economy in the crapper (ALL OVER THE WORLD) and it only getting worse, I think the Rasp Pi 5 will have a target of 'UNDER $75' of it's going to performance based .... but I think they will aim for features over performance just to keep it cheap
This has more to do with the software than the capability of the hardware. Most of these boards, this one included, are able to do hardware decoding but it's often not properly supported in the software so playback defaults to software decoding which is much more resource intensive.
Taking a look at other more recently released boards, I'd be really surprised if the Pi 5 comes in under $100 for their "flagship" model.
Perhaps none do when running Linux at the moment. But with Android I was able to play 4K RUclips and record it in 4K with a screen recorder on a RK3588 board.
Dude, the mali gpus are far more featured than the videocores. Second, the mali gpu does nothing regarding video decoding/encoding, it's the vpu that does that. Rpi4 is marketing 4k and inside the browser it's still software decoding after all this years... and they have way more resources to do it way better.
Would you be getting an Orange Pi 5?
I'm pretty sure if the Raspberry Pi 5 costs £400+ it'll be just as good.....lol
the only reason i hate raspberry pi 4b most is that wifi speed is too bad😫
use a usb wifi dongle
Interesting
It's rubbish, can't even play back video (4K) under the linux system they recommend, so you use android you say - well that's still a beta and just try the level of widevine you get for video playback Rockchips are dodgy at best. Just because you can run a few linux apps that would run on a potato doesn't mean it's any good and it is definitely overpriced as it's not just the board you buy you have to separately buy a power supply and the cpu cooler and whatever peripherals you need. The Pi is much better because it's software is much better, it would seem you reviewers forget about that.
Has the pi vpu decoding on android? No, inside vlc, yes, just on armhf, not properly on aarch64, inside the browser..NO. they use some hacks, but not proper VPU acceleration. The software definitely sucks on rpi, even with the resources they have.
@@microlinux You should watch the youtube video again to check..... oh wait you can't. Hahaha.... not very smart.
@@michaelbradley7704 ???
@@michaelbradley7704 no idea what you said, but yeah, being a pi4 user for the last years (even had a relatively successful channel/project since I was the maker of twisteros alongside another guys). Rpi4 software support sucks, the hw is worst.
@@michaelbradley7704 ahh, and if you meant that the software support on this board is horrible... you are asking vpu inside the browser whenever rpi doesn't have it TODAY, more than 3 years later.
the key is about price, this board is over 200, and Pi is just about 50, so there is No comparable value
Except that you haven't been able to get a Pi for $50 for the past two years
No LAN = deal breaker.
+$200 is too expensive, there are tiny Intel N600 "Nuc"-s with nvme drives for same money
Impressive but expensive + no Ethernet = :’(
combine 4 Soc in one mobo:
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hm ... the rapsberry 4 is nowhere to buy... I don't think a version 5 will be in the pipeline in the near future ... not even in the far future ...
Expensive = No community = disaster
If thats a rPI you hope for I think you'll get dissappointed und utterly misunderstood the goals of the PiProject.
There's a reason this costs 270+ and the rPI 40+
Nice hardware, but the active cooler really puts me off. Nobody really cares to keep the board to a "credit card" size, just do what Odroid N2 did and put a large heatsink on the bottom, NO fan.
Yeah it depends on what you're going to be using it for and how hard it's going to be working, then fan is removable from the heatsink if you'd like a passive solution.
@@MichaelKlements I guess my point is the N2 barely gets warm, and the cost of the passive cooler included with the N2 is probably similar to the active cooler included with all the Khadas boards. So I don't get why, other than to keep the board really small. I really prefer the Odroid N2 design, large heatsink, CPU on the bottom. It works.
I think that's why they've made the cooler an optional accessory, the Edge 2 doesn't include the cooler, you need to buy it (or another solution) separately
@@MichaelKlements yep and that makes the N2 more appealing, the heatsink is already mounted on the bottom. That is my point I guess. The form factor of the Odroid N2 is simply better.
No Ethernet Jack + no micro SD card slot = No interest from me.
I was interested. Then I saw the price. No.
Yes, khadas prices sucks, but there will be tons of sbcs makers providing much better RK3588S prices. It's just khadas...
Dislike. Not a fan of clickbait title, it’s not even a Pi compatible board.
Dude, you just straight copy and pasted someone elses video title. Cold move, I don't know whether to be impressed or just laugh.
I use a trial of an AI Title suggestion tool (the other channel likely did the same) - lesson learned for me!
Another horseshit $200 board. A generic Ubuntu install is worthless for unlocking the potential of such an underpowered mess.
$200+ is too much, it should be better if $100 or less
Over priced single board laptop
I don't like it
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No ethernet ?.What they were thinking!
Who wants to watch you on drop a box
Too expensive, you even cant play 4 L videos for 229$
It's a joke😂🤣🤣