Cascade is a cast trigger which is harder to stop than Discover. However, it requires you to build your deck in certain ways to maximize the Cascade effect. Meanwhile, Discover is stronger if it resolves because even if you don't want to cast the spell you discovered, you still get a spell in hand which makes it more splashable in many more decks.
Sure Cascade is harder to stop, but not once have I been concerned about Shardless Agent or Violent Outburst, it's what they Cascade into that I care about. Outburst is the most concerning though, only because it's instant speed.
@@attackoncardboard Outburst giving an extra one power is more relevant than you'd think. Sheoldred in particular is a weird spot for Footfalls since there are few ways to permanently answer it without spending more than a rhino. The issue I don't see with Discover that I do with Cascade though: Getting the triggering spell after the spell that was cascaded for. Admittedly, it's more of a Bloodbraid Elf thing, but being able to cascade into Anger of the Gods while getting a respectable creature afterwards goes a long way to changing the balance of a game. Or, potentially worse, a Restore Balance play (I don't think the deck is quite there, but it's something to keep an eye on). And that's not even getting into what happens if Living End gets some haste creatures to work with. Discover (at least as it is right now) doesn't compound the problems caused by the cards discovered in that way.
I appreciate the deep dive into these more complex and favored mechanics, showing us their rules changes. While I was aware of these changes, it was nice to take a look at Cascade part 2, aka Discover. It seems wizards likes to replace mechanics that have been busted with new ones as they design new sets.
It does seem like WotC was trying to create a 'balanced' Cascade, but to be fair, I'd never want the card designers job, there's so much you have to think about when creating cards. And some times, things get missed. I suppose it's trying to find that balance between safe and interesting. This is the first broken mechanic we've had since Companion?
@@attackoncardboard I'm not sure, but maybe the first easily broken mechanic. Game designing seems fun to me, but also the more cards you introduce, the harder it gets. A card on its own, within the context of its set may be quite balanced or even underwhelming, but within the vast catalogue of existing cards becomes broken in combination
@@attackoncardboard No free spells seems like a logical and simple rule to keep in mind when designing cards. It is not a mechanic that will be okay 99% of the time as it will be busted or useless. The only exception being the Leylines as they tend to be narrow and only a very small window of being free.
Missing cascade cause you play to many spells that do nothing when you cascade is supposed to feel bad! It's the only deck building restriction for the mechanic to not always get value, wich is already super easy. Discover seems more to be a cascade for timmys then a fixed cascade.
And now Geological appraiser is banned in Pioneer and Explorer, honestly is really a shame bc is obvious to me that the "new" factor was causing all that representation and we didn't had it long enough to see if the meta could adapt. At least we have Quintorius.
So, if anyone here could help me shed light on a few gameplay questions I have about Discover, that’d be lovely: 1. If I discover for 5 and have two “2 mana” cards, can i play them both until i reach the mana value of 5 or is it still only one card and thats it? 2. Can you discover more than once each turn if cards continue to chain trigger Discover? Thanks yall 😌
1. When you Discover X, you exile the top card of your library until you a reveal a nonland card with a converted mana cost of less than X. You can then cast it right then and there for free or put it into your hand. The rest of the exiled cards get shuffled and put on the bottom of your deck. So, in your example, you would reveal until you hit one of your 2 CMV cards and cast it or put it into your hand. 2. Unlike Cascade, which only works when you CAST the spell, Discover can trigger in a number of different ways. In short, yes you can discover more than once each turn. For example, you can cast Trumpeting Carnosaur, which Discovers when it enters the battlefield. You could then Discover into Geological Appraiser, which will only Discover when it enters the battlefield and you cast it, which as mentioned, you CAST spells for free with Discover, so Geological Appraiser would then Discover.
@@attackoncardboard thanks for this! I guess the first one was my real concern. Like, I was under the impression that the X in discover X almost functioned like it was floating mana for the exiled nonland cards, so if its discover 3, i can play a savannah lions AND a poison dart frog. However, it is not and its a one drop. If I discover 10 and get one 8 mana creature and a 2 mana creature i cant play both, just one. Glad to get that ironed out!
Discover should had just been "side cascade" and been only different in telling you what your CMC limit you can "Discover" into is, rather than the casted spell's CMC. So no "putting the card into your hand" if you don't cast the card, it goes to the bottom. Especially since you actually have more control over what your getting versus cascade has to be a lesser value than the card being casted.
It might come down to having good enough teck cards to counter discover and cascade, more cards like Lavinia, who counter spells with no mana spent on them. Put that ability on a decent enough body and it might help balance the meta and pry room for more decks
@@ghouluoshe8001 Having removal in your deck is completely different to "having removal in your hand on the turn you need it". Some times you get MagicTheGatheringed and you just simply dont draw your removal or sideboard card and simply lose the game through no fault of your own.
@@ghouluoshe8001 true, but the deck is a 1 card combo kill. Even tybalt's trickery nonsense needs 2 cards, so there's zero chance in hell wotc will let a 1 card insta-kill just run around uncontested.
Let's be honest with ourselves this mechanic was made for Commander that they threw into the standard set without thinking how it would impact older formats. It's not like we have it done this before with initiative like creatures tearing up legacy, or adding treasure tokens to modern which lets blue decks play ahead of curve something that fundamentally breaks the color
Yeah I play commander mostly and was looking at some of the cards mentioned and they weren’t impressive to me. There are ways to rat fuck discover in commander but the power level is higher than standard and pioneer and you only get 1 card
@@cultmecca it's tempered in Commander because you have three more opponents and they have some of the best board wipes in all of magics history. So the dude out here cascading into like 30 dinosaurs is whatever, format but in limited 60 card format where the cardpool just isn't there to counteract it it will run away with the game
Good that they "fixed" a busted mechanic by removing its only downside and therefore making it possible to include in more decks without any deck-building skills at all. Cascade: Gambling, strong deck building and skill required Discover: Not risky at all, worst case is "when this thing etb's you draw a card". - Every degenerate combo player ever in the history of MTG: Whaaaat this is not broken, leave my funny shizzl alone. You simply have to have the perfect answer at the perfect time, where is the problem?
"Cascade: Gambling, strong deck building and skill required" - I have to disagree. Have you seen how easy it is to not run 2 or 1 drops in your deck? The Split card rules change, while good for the overall health of the game, helped Cascade more than hindered it. Sure you can't cast a 6+ mana spell off a 3 mana Cascade spell, but being able to play "2 mana cost" split cards and have it dodge Cascade is excellent.
Much appreciated! Was testing out some new visuals in this one and took a gamble on if this topic would be interesting or not 😅 I personally love looking back on the games history and being able to say "Back in my day" 😂
It's 'fixed' in the same way Lion's Eye Diamond is a fixed Black Lotus. From what I've seen now, a single counterspell can stop any Discover card from getting the card advantage Cascade had, which is good. But it doesn't address the problem of being able to build a combo deck around what card(s) it will let you play for free. The Discover number would have to be something above 4 for it to not be automatically busted in that regard, and then if the card with Discover on it isn't even higher MV than the Discover number on it, you kind of have to start worrying about how big of a problem would it be and how high of it can a deck build pump the odds for someone to ramp into a turn 2-3 Discover 6 that rolls into Primeval Titan?"
Turn 4 is the consistent pure aggro kill clock. If a combo consistently wins by turn 4, thats within reason for powerlevel. The bigger problem is one card combos, which is just a massive power hike. Conaistent instant win combos have never really existed at more than two cards in hand, and even those tend to be extremely dominant.
I genuinely hate their inability to quit returning to "cast things for free" mechanics. I really enjoy the strategy aspect of MtG and when my foe plays a card that randomly casts another card, it's pretty damned hard to plan what's going to happen. Oh well.
From a limited (draft/sealed), understand. But I believe any of the competitive cascade/discover decks all Cascade into one thing, just so that the deck is consistent and removes any randomness. Living End, Crashing Footfalls etc.
I really hope that the Discover decks do not get banned. Banning doesn't really fix anything; it just highlights poor card design from Wizards. Then Wizards has the audacity to expect us to keep buying the product that just gets banned.
I definately think that Geological Appraiser is getting the ban hammer for standard and maybe pioneer. "Removal checking" players isn't the most fun thing to play against. Having said that, Greasefang decks still exist.
Welcome to the yugioh ban approach. Cards that are too good get banned to make room for new cards and decks. The game still exists, but you have to think if you want to spend $30 on a card or not more carefully.
@@interestingname9275 At least with the potential Discover bans it's simply an uncommon that's getting the axe. For the other Formats, we can already see the potential banned cards crashing in price.
@@attackoncardboard In the defence of Greasefang, the combo itself is not just dropping greasefang and putting stuff in the discard through some sort of synergy. Appraiser and Carnosaur is just having all the cards in the deck and hoping to draw the card and playing it, then subsequently winning the game if your opponent doesn't have removal. Greasefang is a removal check also, but there are steps prior that don't exist in these dumb discover decks
@crovax1375 it's important to acknowledge when poor card design has happened, it should be celebrated when it comes to bans of problematic cards, not try to defend them. I have seen people try to call for unbanning of cards like Wilderness reclamation and field of the dead. Bans of such cards was simply mandatory, these were so broken in terms of the design that they should never have seen play in the first place. Cascade effects could convincingly be argued similar.
Discover is literally the problem 😅 It the fact that it *can* find a specific card and cast it for free with little hinderance to deck building. Even if the Discover value was set to 10, players would find ways to stack their deck and cheat in a 10 drop 😂
The utter incompetence of WOTC the last 5 years is astounding. Magic is just turning into a Yu-gi-oh clone where every card requires 18 lines of text because the designers have simply gotten too lazy and too stupid to come up with a good design mechanic. And all the cards are simply overpowered to the point where WOTC has managed to even start making Commander unplayable. I'm glad that I stopped purchasing WOTC product back in 2020, because it's turned into nothing more than collector garbage by printing 15 versions of the same card. In my opinion, if they want to make a good format, it wouldn't be Pioneer, Explorer or whatever lame idea they have, it would just by any format that excludes every set from the last 5 years.
Game design is not an easy job by any means. It's a small team of testers versus the collective MTG knowledge of the internet. And to be fair, this is the first broken mechanic we've had since Companion.
If anyone thinks Cascade was bad, to me the Discover ability is more egregious than Cascade. Having the option to add a card in hand instead of casting it is too favorable to the Discover player in my opinion.
I don't think anyone thinks that either mechanic is "bad", it's more a case of Discover, Cascade and any other mechanic that allows you to cast spells for free are either completely broken or at worst, very good 😅 Look to Companion, while not a free spell, it was a completely free '8th' card in your hand that you always had access to with little to no drawback.
Mono Red is never going to die. And Etali and Atraxa are all decks that use the old sets, players are likely holding onto their Wild Cards to see what's getting banned today.
Correct. This video was published before today's ban announcement. And for title-ing purposes, what I currently have sounds better than "1 or 2 Discover cards are getting banned... Here's why"
discover should probably say "if this wasn't cast from exile, then blah blah". Chaining these stupid things together both leads to the problems we see as well as make the game just annoying for anyone else.
They had the chance to do that with Discover though! Discover was designed so they can put restrictions on it. You've got Discover cards that happen on resolution of the spell, you've got discover cards that trigger on ETB. They could have literally said "When Geological Appraiser enters the battlefield, if this spell was cast from your hand, Discover 3" 😂
It's going to get banned, but make *no* mistake. This is not going to be a ban for the "health" of the game - this is going to be a ban for profit reasons. The combo is strong, and Discover is a very powerful ability - but appraiser, the card that makes this a thing, is an uncommon they didn't crank up the rates on (like Fatal Push from Kaladesh). Maybe Quintorious is a decently pricey piece? But it's certainly nothing like Oko, Thoracle, or the Incarnations - which the Incs *still* aren't banned after a good year or more, Thoracle is still getting secret lair reprints, and it took Oko a HOT minute in every format even though it's fundamentally broken in a way Discover can't even dream of. Those broken pieces made wizards MONEY - this strong archetype won't. It's strong as a combo tool, and definitely comparable to the power of Cascade, but I don't see it being more than a side grade: this just looks like a slightly mid-rangier flavor of Cascade decks. The reason it's still going to be banned is cause it doesn't line Wizard's pockets and use the brand-new Chase Cards.
Strong disagree on the "this is going to be a ban for profit reasons... cause it doesn't line Wizard's pockets and use the brand-new Chase Cards" The Discover decks all used mainly LCI cards and there are plenty of other LCI cards making waves across formats. The Appraiser ban is stopping a single Turn 3 combo, it literally impacts nothing else.
I take it you're not well travelled. You see, people in different countries pronounce things differently. This is commonly known as an "accent". In America, people say things like "Mom" instead of "Mum" and "axed" instead of "asked". I hope this helps broaden your world view.
Let me know if you enjoy these deep dives into the history of MTG Abilities old and new! Are there any others you would like to see?
Cascade is a cast trigger which is harder to stop than Discover. However, it requires you to build your deck in certain ways to maximize the Cascade effect. Meanwhile, Discover is stronger if it resolves because even if you don't want to cast the spell you discovered, you still get a spell in hand which makes it more splashable in many more decks.
Sure Cascade is harder to stop, but not once have I been concerned about Shardless Agent or Violent Outburst, it's what they Cascade into that I care about.
Outburst is the most concerning though, only because it's instant speed.
@@attackoncardboard Outburst giving an extra one power is more relevant than you'd think. Sheoldred in particular is a weird spot for Footfalls since there are few ways to permanently answer it without spending more than a rhino.
The issue I don't see with Discover that I do with Cascade though: Getting the triggering spell after the spell that was cascaded for. Admittedly, it's more of a Bloodbraid Elf thing, but being able to cascade into Anger of the Gods while getting a respectable creature afterwards goes a long way to changing the balance of a game. Or, potentially worse, a Restore Balance play (I don't think the deck is quite there, but it's something to keep an eye on). And that's not even getting into what happens if Living End gets some haste creatures to work with. Discover (at least as it is right now) doesn't compound the problems caused by the cards discovered in that way.
I appreciate the deep dive into these more complex and favored mechanics, showing us their rules changes. While I was aware of these changes, it was nice to take a look at Cascade part 2, aka Discover. It seems wizards likes to replace mechanics that have been busted with new ones as they design new sets.
It does seem like WotC was trying to create a 'balanced' Cascade, but to be fair, I'd never want the card designers job, there's so much you have to think about when creating cards. And some times, things get missed.
I suppose it's trying to find that balance between safe and interesting. This is the first broken mechanic we've had since Companion?
@@attackoncardboard I'm not sure, but maybe the first easily broken mechanic. Game designing seems fun to me, but also the more cards you introduce, the harder it gets. A card on its own, within the context of its set may be quite balanced or even underwhelming, but within the vast catalogue of existing cards becomes broken in combination
@@attackoncardboard No free spells seems like a logical and simple rule to keep in mind when designing cards. It is not a mechanic that will be okay 99% of the time as it will be busted or useless. The only exception being the Leylines as they tend to be narrow and only a very small window of being free.
“How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man!” -players to WOTC after printing yet another way to cast spells for free
I LOVE the switch to VSauce music at 2:21. Fits perfectly.
Damn, they really thought cascade but better was a great idea. Next they'll print storm-but-copy-for-each-permanent-on-the-field.
Missing cascade cause you play to many spells that do nothing when you cascade is supposed to feel bad! It's the only deck building restriction for the mechanic to not always get value, wich is already super easy. Discover seems more to be a cascade for timmys then a fixed cascade.
And now Geological appraiser is banned in Pioneer and Explorer, honestly is really a shame bc is obvious to me that the "new" factor was causing all that representation and we didn't had it long enough to see if the meta could adapt. At least we have Quintorius.
So, if anyone here could help me shed light on a few gameplay questions I have about Discover, that’d be lovely:
1. If I discover for 5 and have two “2 mana” cards, can i play them both until i reach the mana value of 5 or is it still only one card and thats it?
2. Can you discover more than once each turn if cards continue to chain trigger Discover?
Thanks yall 😌
1. When you Discover X, you exile the top card of your library until you a reveal a nonland card with a converted mana cost of less than X. You can then cast it right then and there for free or put it into your hand. The rest of the exiled cards get shuffled and put on the bottom of your deck.
So, in your example, you would reveal until you hit one of your 2 CMV cards and cast it or put it into your hand.
2. Unlike Cascade, which only works when you CAST the spell, Discover can trigger in a number of different ways. In short, yes you can discover more than once each turn.
For example, you can cast Trumpeting Carnosaur, which Discovers when it enters the battlefield. You could then Discover into Geological Appraiser, which will only Discover when it enters the battlefield and you cast it, which as mentioned, you CAST spells for free with Discover, so Geological Appraiser would then Discover.
@@attackoncardboard thanks for this! I guess the first one was my real concern. Like, I was under the impression that the X in discover X almost functioned like it was floating mana for the exiled nonland cards, so if its discover 3, i can play a savannah lions AND a poison dart frog. However, it is not and its a one drop. If I discover 10 and get one 8 mana creature and a 2 mana creature i cant play both, just one. Glad to get that ironed out!
I love you cascade! It has won me so many games and has been the bane of my playgroups Nightmares, since I’ve started.
I still can't believe they effectively reprinted this mechanic 😂
I loved the way you explained the mechanics. I'm still learning the game 😅
That's great to hear! I try to make all my videos with beginners and intermediates in mind 😁
Discover should had just been "side cascade" and been only different in telling you what your CMC limit you can "Discover" into is, rather than the casted spell's CMC. So no "putting the card into your hand" if you don't cast the card, it goes to the bottom. Especially since you actually have more control over what your getting versus cascade has to be a lesser value than the card being casted.
thank you - i forgot how Abaddon worked!
And now you also know why it's absolutely bonkers!
It might come down to having good enough teck cards to counter discover and cascade, more cards like Lavinia, who counter spells with no mana spent on them. Put that ability on a decent enough body and it might help balance the meta and pry room for more decks
Just play removal, lol, this deck is falling once you kill appraiser while he is trying to copy it with mimic.
@@ghouluoshe8001 Having removal in your deck is completely different to "having removal in your hand on the turn you need it". Some times you get MagicTheGatheringed and you just simply dont draw your removal or sideboard card and simply lose the game through no fault of your own.
@@ghouluoshe8001 true, but the deck is a 1 card combo kill. Even tybalt's trickery nonsense needs 2 cards, so there's zero chance in hell wotc will let a 1 card insta-kill just run around uncontested.
Let's be honest with ourselves this mechanic was made for Commander that they threw into the standard set without thinking how it would impact older formats.
It's not like we have it done this before with initiative like creatures tearing up legacy, or adding treasure tokens to modern which lets blue decks play ahead of curve something that fundamentally breaks the color
Yeah I play commander mostly and was looking at some of the cards mentioned and they weren’t impressive to me. There are ways to rat fuck discover in commander but the power level is higher than standard and pioneer and you only get 1 card
@@cultmecca it's tempered in Commander because you have three more opponents and they have some of the best board wipes in all of magics history.
So the dude out here cascading into like 30 dinosaurs is whatever, format but in limited 60 card format where the cardpool just isn't there to counteract it it will run away with the game
Pioneer being a turn 3 format is bothersome. I want to play 60 card, non-rotating that isn't centered and a 2 deck meta.
100% agree. CBF playing a game where you just ask me if I have removal in my hand on turn 3, and if I don't, we play the next one.
Scamp, hammer, aid t2 but its a glass cannon
@@istovall2624 that sounds like Modern? I have no issues with Discover Combo in Modern.
@@attackoncardboard all pioneer legal :/ i made it thinking id own the format. It sucks though. Very fragile. Plus im terrible at mtg 🤣 lmao
@@attackoncardboardas someone who plays Phoenix in pioneer. I’ve definitely heard on like turn 3-4 “show me trespass and I’ll scoop”
😭😅
Good that they "fixed" a busted mechanic by removing its only downside and therefore making it possible to include in more decks without any deck-building skills at all.
Cascade: Gambling, strong deck building and skill required
Discover: Not risky at all, worst case is "when this thing etb's you draw a card".
- Every degenerate combo player ever in the history of MTG:
Whaaaat this is not broken, leave my funny shizzl alone. You simply have to have the perfect answer at the perfect time, where is the problem?
"Cascade: Gambling, strong deck building and skill required" - I have to disagree. Have you seen how easy it is to not run 2 or 1 drops in your deck? The Split card rules change, while good for the overall health of the game, helped Cascade more than hindered it. Sure you can't cast a 6+ mana spell off a 3 mana Cascade spell, but being able to play "2 mana cost" split cards and have it dodge Cascade is excellent.
congtats on the 4k
Another great video! Keep up the good work!
Much appreciated! Was testing out some new visuals in this one and took a gamble on if this topic would be interesting or not 😅 I personally love looking back on the games history and being able to say "Back in my day" 😂
its kicker.
I have an idea, how about they just make a 3 mana card that says, "you win the game"... and "this card has no deck limit".
It's 'fixed' in the same way Lion's Eye Diamond is a fixed Black Lotus.
From what I've seen now, a single counterspell can stop any Discover card from getting the card advantage Cascade had, which is good. But it doesn't address the problem of being able to build a combo deck around what card(s) it will let you play for free. The Discover number would have to be something above 4 for it to not be automatically busted in that regard, and then if the card with Discover on it isn't even higher MV than the Discover number on it, you kind of have to start worrying about how big of a problem would it be and how high of it can a deck build pump the odds for someone to ramp into a turn 2-3 Discover 6 that rolls into Primeval Titan?"
Turn 4 is the consistent pure aggro kill clock. If a combo consistently wins by turn 4, thats within reason for powerlevel.
The bigger problem is one card combos, which is just a massive power hike. Conaistent instant win combos have never really existed at more than two cards in hand, and even those tend to be extremely dominant.
I genuinely hate their inability to quit returning to "cast things for free" mechanics. I really enjoy the strategy aspect of MtG and when my foe plays a card that randomly casts another card, it's pretty damned hard to plan what's going to happen. Oh well.
From a limited (draft/sealed), understand. But I believe any of the competitive cascade/discover decks all Cascade into one thing, just so that the deck is consistent and removes any randomness. Living End, Crashing Footfalls etc.
I really hope that the Discover decks do not get banned. Banning doesn't really fix anything; it just highlights poor card design from Wizards. Then Wizards has the audacity to expect us to keep buying the product that just gets banned.
I definately think that Geological Appraiser is getting the ban hammer for standard and maybe pioneer. "Removal checking" players isn't the most fun thing to play against. Having said that, Greasefang decks still exist.
Welcome to the yugioh ban approach. Cards that are too good get banned to make room for new cards and decks. The game still exists, but you have to think if you want to spend $30 on a card or not more carefully.
@@interestingname9275 At least with the potential Discover bans it's simply an uncommon that's getting the axe.
For the other Formats, we can already see the potential banned cards crashing in price.
@@attackoncardboard In the defence of Greasefang, the combo itself is not just dropping greasefang and putting stuff in the discard through some sort of synergy. Appraiser and Carnosaur is just having all the cards in the deck and hoping to draw the card and playing it, then subsequently winning the game if your opponent doesn't have removal. Greasefang is a removal check also, but there are steps prior that don't exist in these dumb discover decks
@crovax1375 it's important to acknowledge when poor card design has happened, it should be celebrated when it comes to bans of problematic cards, not try to defend them. I have seen people try to call for unbanning of cards like Wilderness reclamation and field of the dead. Bans of such cards was simply mandatory, these were so broken in terms of the design that they should never have seen play in the first place. Cascade effects could convincingly be argued similar.
Geo appraiser was literally banned in pioneer and explorer the day after this video came out. 💀
There was a delay in getting this video out 😅
Free spells are always good.
If mtg cares about "cast from your hand"... Resolves a lot of problems
Didn't Geological Appraiser has a similar clause? "ETB, if this was cast, Discover 3"
Discover is not a problem beacause like if you discover 10 the odds of you getting a 10 mana Value spell as the first you draw is very unlikely
Discover is literally the problem 😅 It the fact that it *can* find a specific card and cast it for free with little hinderance to deck building. Even if the Discover value was set to 10, players would find ways to stack their deck and cheat in a 10 drop 😂
The utter incompetence of WOTC the last 5 years is astounding. Magic is just turning into a Yu-gi-oh clone where every card requires 18 lines of text because the designers have simply gotten too lazy and too stupid to come up with a good design mechanic. And all the cards are simply overpowered to the point where WOTC has managed to even start making Commander unplayable. I'm glad that I stopped purchasing WOTC product back in 2020, because it's turned into nothing more than collector garbage by printing 15 versions of the same card. In my opinion, if they want to make a good format, it wouldn't be Pioneer, Explorer or whatever lame idea they have, it would just by any format that excludes every set from the last 5 years.
Game design is not an easy job by any means. It's a small team of testers versus the collective MTG knowledge of the internet. And to be fair, this is the first broken mechanic we've had since Companion.
If anyone thinks Cascade was bad, to me the Discover ability is more egregious than Cascade. Having the option to add a card in hand instead of casting it is too favorable to the Discover player in my opinion.
I don't think anyone thinks that either mechanic is "bad", it's more a case of Discover, Cascade and any other mechanic that allows you to cast spells for free are either completely broken or at worst, very good 😅
Look to Companion, while not a free spell, it was a completely free '8th' card in your hand that you always had access to with little to no drawback.
Quintorious deck gets dominated by pithing
Quintorious deck also get dunked by Shock 😂
Then why im I still being paired against countless mono red decks, Etali, and Atraxa?!
I never see Discover in standard, at least not yet.
Mono Red is never going to die. And Etali and Atraxa are all decks that use the old sets, players are likely holding onto their Wild Cards to see what's getting banned today.
@attackoncardboard RDW died after the last rotation, when Cleve left, and it stayed gone for months.
We must be playing different games then 😂
Nah discover is fine
Phew, that's good to hear 😁
1 discover card isnt all of it
Correct. This video was published before today's ban announcement.
And for title-ing purposes, what I currently have sounds better than "1 or 2 Discover cards are getting banned... Here's why"
discover should probably say "if this wasn't cast from exile, then blah blah". Chaining these stupid things together both leads to the problems we see as well as make the game just annoying for anyone else.
They had the chance to do that with Discover though! Discover was designed so they can put restrictions on it. You've got Discover cards that happen on resolution of the spell, you've got discover cards that trigger on ETB. They could have literally said "When Geological Appraiser enters the battlefield, if this spell was cast from your hand, Discover 3" 😂
Ahhhhh it’s NOT 2024 yet 🤔
?
Deterministic combo decks are really boring
Winning is more important than fun for tournament players (a good chunk of the time). See "Spike, Tournament Grinder" 😂
It's going to get banned, but make *no* mistake. This is not going to be a ban for the "health" of the game - this is going to be a ban for profit reasons.
The combo is strong, and Discover is a very powerful ability - but appraiser, the card that makes this a thing, is an uncommon they didn't crank up the rates on (like Fatal Push from Kaladesh). Maybe Quintorious is a decently pricey piece? But it's certainly nothing like Oko, Thoracle, or the Incarnations - which the Incs *still* aren't banned after a good year or more, Thoracle is still getting secret lair reprints, and it took Oko a HOT minute in every format even though it's fundamentally broken in a way Discover can't even dream of. Those broken pieces made wizards MONEY - this strong archetype won't.
It's strong as a combo tool, and definitely comparable to the power of Cascade, but I don't see it being more than a side grade: this just looks like a slightly mid-rangier flavor of Cascade decks. The reason it's still going to be banned is cause it doesn't line Wizard's pockets and use the brand-new Chase Cards.
Strong disagree on the "this is going to be a ban for profit reasons... cause it doesn't line Wizard's pockets and use the brand-new Chase Cards"
The Discover decks all used mainly LCI cards and there are plenty of other LCI cards making waves across formats. The Appraiser ban is stopping a single Turn 3 combo, it literally impacts nothing else.
I'm just concerned that Magic is really starting to resemble Yugioh. That's not a rabbit hole this game should want anything to do with.
As long as Magic doesn't just suddenly drop the rule book for "Rules are on the cards", we'll be fine 😂
@@attackoncardboard Or worse, on the errata for game balance. All at the end of the rules documentation.
It got a card banned in 14 days after release. Maro really needs to stop trying to fix his old mistakes.
Pretty sure it was 17 and it's tied 4th quickest ban alongside Omnath 😅
cascade and discover are so shit to play against its not fun at all
How often are you running into these mechanics? Have you thought about including ways to counter them?
Maahna-value? Eww.
I take it you're not well travelled. You see, people in different countries pronounce things differently. This is commonly known as an "accent".
In America, people say things like "Mom" instead of "Mum" and "axed" instead of "asked".
I hope this helps broaden your world view.