MINOR CORRECTION: - For some reason I got it in my head that Greater Good is a triggered ability and would be placed on the stack at the same time as Enduring Courage, therefore you can choose the order in which it resolves. I incorrectly stated that you could resolve the Greater Good ability *before* Enduring Courage's triggered ability. I have cut this incorrect statement out of the video. The main point of the video is still correct and this error has effectively no impact on grand scheme of things. - Also technically the Enduring Courage would also have the abilities given to it by Bello, haste, indestructible and "draw", even though it's not a creature. Also shout out to @seandun7083 who is being a absolute legend and replying to the comments in this video (with the correct answers/info). Much appreciated!
Okay you can't infinite combo in the same turn but what about the next turn will Courage still stay an enchantment with no other types and not become a 4/4 creature?? or because of time stamps it forever just stays a normal enchantment until you flicker Bellow and get a new time stamp on him?
My thinking before watching the explanation is that the dog's timestamp is gonna be later than the raccoon, therefore its ability to turn it into an enchantment gets applied after raccoon ability, making it an enchantment. So if you could somehow blink your raccoon each time the dog entered, that should be infinite? Edit after watching: Oh wow! I think I got it right, and I also clocked the trick with blinking Bello. Kind of proud of myself for this one hahah
I love these clarification videos. It wasn't immediately obvious to me, but by defining which layers apply to what abilities, it became clear, fast, that it's a timestamp issue. I would have completely missed that had it not been pointed out.
4:18 You get an instance of Greater Good's activated ability, not a triggered ability. With that in mind, you cannot resolve GG's activated ability first as Enduring Courage's triggered ability will always go on top of it.
The funny thing is, flickering either bello or the enduring courage should do the trick since the enduring courage should enter as a fresh version of the card and lose the trigger from the second ability. I might be wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure it works that way.
It can't go infinite, but they still have some cool interactions. For instance, anything that Bello changes to a creature will enter as a creature with +2/+0 so it will be a 6/4 and can be sacrificed after combat to draw 6 and discard 3. This could really help push through redundant cards to find essential tools.
Assuming it enters on your turn, yes. It probably wouldn't come up too often in Gruul colours, but if it isn't your turn when the Enchantment or Artifact enters, thanks to an Instant bringing it out or Flash or something, it won't be able to trigger Enduring Courage.
Hey! Just found out you'll be on the newly formed Commander Format Panel! Good to hear! Excited to see how you and the others on the Panel work to keep Commander in the hands of the community!
Awesome video. Thank you for teaching us about layers! I think I’m finally getting layers and time stamps. Im going to make a token kind of card to walk through them and use dice to mark time stamp effects to clarify it during games.
Tho their is something important to notice here Enduring Courage has still base power and toughness 4/4, it has indestructable, haste and "Whenever this permanent deals combat damage to a player, draw a card". But because it isn't a creature, the haste and power and toughness don't really apply. But like if you then equip Luxior, Giada's Gift somehow to Enduring Courage, it will be a 4/4 and can attack.
It wouldn't have p/t 4/4. The effect would exist, and like you said, if it became a creature again, it would apply, but it doesn't have 4/4 while it's not a creature (208.3a) It will however have "haste" and "whenever this deals combat damage to a player, draw a card" which are functionally useless, as haste doesn't matter and a no creature can't deal combat damage as far as I know, but are still abilities the card has. And as you mentioned it just has working indestructible
This changes nothing for me. Enduring Courage is still going into my Bello deck. He may not give me infinite draw, but he's still a good boy and does Bello things, thus still fits. Gotta love layers, though. Or hate them. Depends on your point of view.
Dogginess aside, is it really that synergistic with Bello? Bello already gives the things that matter the most in your deck haste, and the +2 power on the turn they enter doesn't feel like something I'd care enough about to use a slot in my deck for. I pulled one and considered it briefly for Bello but at least the way my deck is shaped it seems really unnecessary.
@@CountDankula420 I think it's enough to be worthwhile. You'll likely still be running creatures without the Enchantment or Artifact type, too, so I think Enduring Courage is perfectly usable. And if Enduring Courage has died once, recasting Bello let's it be a creature again. Sounds like a reasonable include, and especially in Commander where you can have these sorts of "it's in because I want it in" choices.
So my thoughts on this (heavily simplified because RUclips bugged out a ton and seems to have exploded my initial, much more detailed response lol) Layering is a relatively obscure and complicated piece of the comprehensive rulings to newer players. Reminder text is also relatively weird to newer players, because on a surface level, it's technically not rules text. Reminder text sometimes contradicts or omits from the comprehensive rules to save space, and has created some relatively weird sounding interactions in the past, with examples like Dryad Arbor + Suspend (Spell not keyword. The reminder text on the latter spell implies it would enter with haste, "If it's a creature, it has haste." but the comprehensive rules of the suspend keyword as featured on that spell would mean it enters without haste, because it specifies "If you cast a creature spell this way..." and Dryad Arbor is not cast, because it is a land) and Atraxa, Grand Unifier (omits some card types from the reminder text, such as Tribal) and Blind Obedience (it is legal in mono-White decks, despite the reminder text having a W/B mana symbol, because reminder text in this instance is only in said reminder text, not in any other ability costs.) I think that there should on occasion be listings on rulings resources like Gatherer to specify and give citations to the relevant rules, because it's easier to direct a newbie to the rules site, and easier to casually search on that site for a specific card's interaction, than it is to do the same thing across RUclips or Reddit or what have you. Could be helpful I think.
@@attackoncardboard I actually went and double checked before commenting just to make sure, yeah. Just would appreciate it for future use, I think. Could make rules in general easier to understand for less experienced players, and for players trying to introduce inexperienced players to the game, since official rules resources like that are often *much* easier to understand than the comprehensive rules or citations to such rules on wikis. These videos you provide are actually very helpful for learning it, thankfully, but some of my friends would probably not get it until they've played for at least a month or two.
I think a little section on why these aren't dependent effects is good for these kinds of interactions, because when those arise it is nice to be familiar with them instead of only thinking about them for those cases that they matter.
Funky note: The rest of Bello's continuous effect also applies to Enduring Courage, even though it ceased to be a Creature. Enduring Courage still gains Indestructible, Haste, and 4/4 power/toughness even though it is not a Creature anymore, because once a continuous ability begins to apply in an earlier layer to an object, it continues to apply to that object for the rest of the process. Now, having 4/4 power/toughness and Haste does not really *benefit* Enduring Courage in any way, since non-creatures don't have any way to *use* their p/t, but it does technically have them. Being Indestructible certainly could end up being meaningful, however, so it is worth noting.
Yeah. I think the 4/4 part could be relevant if you have Enchanted Evening and a vehicle, but otherwise most effects that would make it a creature without overwrite it's p/t anyways.
Commenting before the answer: it doesn't work because enduring courage has the most recent timestamp and says "it is not a creature" this effect overrules all other typal effects?
You may want to look into Opalesence and Replenish type effects with Rooms. If a Room enters and wasn't cast, both sides are locked, and a Room only has the characteristics of the unlocked side/s. Which in this situation are neither, which make the Room a zero cost Enchantment Room, that would immediately die to the Opalesence effect. Rooms also have some funky rules when dealing with copies. You copy the open Room and the copy does get the option of unlocking the other side. Unlocking a Room is also a special action, and cannot be responded to. Also I'm seeing a lot of Bello's friend Wildsear, Scouring Maw in Room lists. If people understood how split cards work, they would realize that you can't Cascade into a Room.
@@attackoncardboard it's not necessarily Bello, but the alt Commander for the deck Wildsear. With how ridiculously complex Rooms are, and that Marina Vendrell is getting popular(1448 decks as of this comment). A Rooms primer may be needed.
You only copy which room is already open if you copy a room spell, not if you copy a room permanent. You can cascade into a room if the cascade spell costs more than the total MV, but yeah that will be harder than just being more than either half.
@@seandun7083 CR 709.5. Some split cards are permanent cards with a single shared type line. A shared type line on such an object represents two static abilities that function on the battlefield. These are “As long as this permanent doesn’t have the ‘left half unlocked’ designation, it doesn’t have the name, mana cost, or rules text of this object’s left half” and “As long as this permanent doesn’t have the ‘right half unlocked’ designation, it doesn’t have the name, mana cost, or rules text of this object’s right half.” These abilities, as well as which half of that permanent a characteristic is in, are part of that object’s copiable values. And CR 709.5b The existence of each half of an object with a shared type line is part of that object’s copiable values, even if that object is a spell on the stack. This is an exception to rule 709.3b TLDR: when you copy a Room, you copy not only what is Unlocked, but what is Locked as well, and you gain the ability to Unlock the locked parts
My guess for why not is because since it never becomes a creature due to timestamps, everything bello tries to apply to it also fizzles since it needs to apply in order starting with becoming a creature
7:27 Why wouldn't being an enchantment mean there wouldn't be any further changes? If that was the case, wouldn't Enduring Courage go infinite with itself + Greater Good then? It would never truly die and thus make the reminder text of not being a creature wrong.
The point I was making was that I thought that "Is an enchantment." is the same as "Is an enchantment in addition to any other types that would be granted to it.". As I go on to say, "Is an enchantment." effectively means "Is an enchantment and loses all other card types."
One thing I find confusing here and would love clarification on. Since Bello's ability only works on your turn, would he turn Enduring Courage back into a creature on your next turn, allowing this to be a once a turn combo? Or does Enduring Courage's effect keep him an enchantment on all subsequent turns?
I'll pose you a question to see if I can make this click for you (If you still don't get it let me know and I'll explain 😁). What is the Timestamp of Bello's ability? Is it older or newer than Enduring Courage's effect?
@@ryanderenbecker8837 613.7d An object receives a timestamp at the time it enters a zone. So when you play the "new" Bello, they will have a newer timestamp and when we go to apply the Layers, they will be applied last :)
I took out Greater Good from my build & don't plan on putting Enduring Courage in my Bello. However, I just put in Overlord of the Boilerbilges because if I cast it for it's Impending cost it'd be a 4 cmc/mana value enchantment. Plus, I like its ability. I also put in a Room, Charred Foyer/Warped Space. Thought that would be neat too in Bello!
Keep in mind that Bello can only turn an impending Overlord into a creature if Bello is played afterwards. The two type changing effects will apply in timestamp order meaning that if you played Bello first, it will be turned into a creature and then no longer be a creature from Impending.
Honestly the funniest part is because of how the timestamps apply the abilities Enduring Courage will be an Enchantment Creature - Dog Glimmer Elemental until it dies. Once it comes back, assuming the stamps are right, Bello will turn it into an Enchantment Creature - Elemental only. I just think that's kind of funny.
Type dependancy layer, both effects act in the same layer so they are defined by time stamp so the last effect on the field wins therefore the glimmer effect wins over the racoon
There's a very easy to figure out if there's a dependency: If you control Enduring Courage that is a creature, and a second Enduring Courage that has become an enchantment, which one is affected by Bello? Since you're claiming Enduring Courage's ability changes whether or not Enduring Courage is affected by Bello's ability (since that is when you use dependencies instead of timestamps), then it should only be affecting one of these permanents. So which one is it?
Can you explain the Phyrexian Vraska whe Innkeeper's combo? Specifically why Vraska comes in with enough counters to ultimate even if you spend phyrexian mana on her?
Since both the compleated ability and the 3rd chapter of Innkeeper's Talent are replacement effects, the controller of the affected permanent (Vraska) gets to choose which order they apply in. Therefore you can double them, then reduce them by 2 for the most favorable outcome.
I have to second the question of the Enduring enchantment cards from duskmourn and their interactions with Starfield of Nyx. If you've got 7 enchantments, an enduring enchantment creature dies and comes back, making the trigger go from 6 enchantments back to 7 again, would that reapply Starfield of Nyx? Or does the effect of Starfield of Nyx get tied to it's own timestamp, regardless of WHEN the 7 enchantment requirement is met, therefore making the enduring card the only non-creature enchantment on the board?
The latter. Starfield of Nyx's 2nd ability is just like Bello. Its Timestamp is tied to the card/object itself. So if you had a "dead" Enduring creature that came back *after* Starfield of Nyx entered play, the Enduring creatures "Is an Enchantment" effect will be applied *after* Starfield as it has the newest timestamp. Starfield will only animate "dead" Enduring creatures if Starfield comes into play after they died.
@@attackoncardboard Appreciate the reply. Guess it's time to find a way to blink Starfield with an enchantment/artifact for this idea. Really excited to use the Miracle Worker precon as a base for a Zur Enchantment Creature deck, and was kind of banking on this interaction to make perpetual creatures. Back to the drawing board! - I WISH there was something as simple as a Teleportation Circle but for enchantments! Maybe Venser...
0:20 - wait, why is it not a combo? 0:25 - oh, right, timestamps... It's funny how, being fully aware of every single rule involved here, I didn't actually catch what was going on until you mentioned timestamps. Cards are complicated!
Layers are some of the most important rule that players don't learn. They're used in every single game. They look/sound intimidating, but they're easy once you know what to look for 😁
@@attackoncardboard Yeah, agreed. They have a much undeserved bad rep. But I guess the dog's ability didn't parse as a layer 4 ability at first glance for some reason... as soon as I re-read the cards, I said "oooh"
I feel like quite a bit of confusion with this card could have been avoided if that said "at the beginning of combat on your turn..." rather than making it a static ability, but hey it gives people a chance to learn about layers.
This reminds me of the gods interaction. Pretty much the timestamp means “it’s an enchantment, it’s not a creature” gets applied after Bello, so it’s no longer a creature
@8:00 does this also mean that while bello is out, ensuring creature is NOT an enchantment? Only a creature? So enchantment removals would not work on my turn (while playing bello) only creature (or elemental) removal?
So, would a card similar to Bello work on later turns if it was a triggered ability instead of a continuous ability? Basically, if it was 'At the beginning of Y phase, artifacts and enchantments become X/X somethings with A, B, C until end of turn', would the ability have a later timestamp than the card?
@@hashswap Blinking Bello also works since that means it now has a new timestamp and applies after the effect making it just an enchantment. Skybind almost does that but returns him at end of turn.
While not infinitely repeatable, this can be repeated by bringing Bello out after Enduring Courage returns as an Enchantment. So if you sac Enduring Courage to Greater Good before bringing Bello out, you draw 3 and discsrd 3, then bring Bello out and Enduring Courage would become a Creature again, letting you sax Enduring Courage again to draw 4 this time and discard 3. And you can do it again any time Bello leaves the battlefield and returns, be it by killing Bello and bringing it back from the Command Zone, using a bounce effect then recasting it, using a flicker effect, or killing it and letting it go to the graveyard so you can use a reanimate effect. Enduring Courage does not overwrite Bello's ability if Bello comes out after it.
Dear god I actually got it right. Well sorta. I knew that enduring courage would come back as a creature and then lose the type creature, but I wasn’t sure how time stamp would effect it
So theoretically if you could flicker Bello to change it’s timestamp, would that allow the combo to work? Using something like an Eldrazi displacer. *Edit: You’d have to do it every loop.
Yeah. If Bello's timestamp gets reset to apply after Enduring Courage's type changing effect then it will end up as a creature. Of course once it dies and returns again it will have the later timestamp again so you would need to blink Bello multiple times.
I presume this works the same with cards like Opalescence or Starfield of Nyx? Their abilities applying before the Enduring Courage’s meaning it won’t change back into a creature.
What if Bello is removed and brought back into play while Enduring Courage is only an enchantment? Does the timestamp rule put Bello's effect after Enduring Courage's effect?
Just a question on a ruleing for enduring courage the ruleing "Dog and Glimmer are both creature types. Enduring Courage won't have those creature types when its last ability returns it to the battlefield because it won't be a creature." Would this me that the effect of enduring courage apply when it is off field
The type changing effect only applies once it's returned to the battlefield and lasts as long as it's on the battlefield. In other zones it will still be a creature.
Does the just an enchantment Enduring Courage have indestructible from Bellow? Its type was overridden but it seems like the rest of Bellow's effect should still try to apply in later layers.
Now that i see layers everywhere, i have an interaction which needs clarification. If i get and enchantment-creature with my Anikthea, Hand of Erebos but i also have Starfield of Nyx in play, which would set its Power and toughtness? and if that enchantmente creature is Heliod, God of the Sun? My head is about to explode right now 😅
Slightly different issue here. Here we need to look at rules about Copying. Specifically this one: 707.9b Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final set of values for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values of the copy. Example: Copy Artifact is an enchantment that reads, “You may have Copy Artifact enter as a copy of any artifact on the battlefield, except it’s an enchantment in addition to its other types.” It enters the battlefield as a copy of Juggernaut. The copiable values of the Copy Artifact now match those of Juggernaut with one modification: its types are now artifact, creature, and enchantment. So in this case, when Anikthea copies the enchantment, she also gives it the instructions "except it’s a 3/3 black Zombie creature in addition to its other types.". This continuous effect is all contained within Layer 1. So because Starfield of Nyx's P/T setting ability happens in Layer 7b. It will apply *after* Anikthea. So a Anikthea'ed Heliod, God of the Sun will be a 4/4 with Starfield in play.
@@attackoncardboard okay, I think i need to rewatch the layers video to remember them but thankyou!, I get the logic now. But i have one doubt, if starfield's effect is not active and you dont have your white devotion devotion for Heliod, would it be a 3/3 enchantment creature or just an enchantment as happens in this video?
Ah yes, sorry. I forgot he has that clause. So that's where Timestamps come into play for that. If you don't have devotion, as long as Starfield of Nyx has the newest Timestamp, they'll be a creature. Same as my last Bello video.
I am a little bit confused about the timestamps. So "having control of something" comes before that something enters the battlefield? And since Enduring Courage's ability applies on "entering the battlefield", that is why it comes after Bello, who has only the "having control" condition? Otherwise they aren't happening at the same time, are they?
Bello is already on the field. Enduring courage dies, then it comes back. This version that comes back is, as far as the game is concerned, a brand new card with brand new timestamps. And since it arrived after Bello, it applies after it. Dying and returning "refreshes" the timestamp
I think it can go infinite with more pieces, I'm just trying to figure out what, while still retaining Bello as the commander, that is. Trivially easy if you add white.
It did not say in the card “it loses all other card types”, but it does say “it’s not a creature”… so you’re definitely right about that. One thing I was wondering though, while it’s an enchantment creature, Bello does turn him into a 4/4, right? Wouldn’t it be best to just blink enduring courage? Doesn’t blinking it make it turn back into a creature?
Keeping the original type(s) when a type-changing effect happens is the exception, not the rule. That's why cards like Bello specifically say "in addition to its other types" You don't need to write "it loses all other card types" because that's just how the rules work. I will admit I don't know enough about weird corner cases to say why something like Darksteel Mutation needs to specify it while something like Spreading Seas doesn't.
Stuff in parentheses is a reminder of core game rules that apply in the situation. They would still apply even if not explicitly stated and are only there to provide a helpful summary of something you'll probably need to know. They don't always tell you every detail if it's not relevant. Other types aren't mentioned in the parentheses because doggo isn't normally any of those other types.
Are you sure this is how it works, given that the Forest doesn't have a copiable characteristic of being a creature? My guess was it applies the "white" and p/t exceptions to the token but not the illusion type. Although I'm not sure about the type. It may be that it's applied in the background, waiting for the token to become a creature to start being visible. I keep asking people this question and every time I get a different answer. I'd love it if you made a short that definitely solves it by giving specific CR citation.
You're right. There's more to this. I'll try and make a short this weekend. Very interesting rules, I thought Forest would surely be copy-abme seeing as "Copy land" is a card.
That is an interesting one. I definitely got less confident in my answer when I realized it didn't say "... except it's a 0/1 white illusion *creature* ."
my question would be this what would happen at the start of the next turn would it still just be a enchantment or will the fact that its a new turn make it a creature again. based off of what i am seeing in this video i am making an assumption that it would still remain just an enchantment.
Would a warstorm surge see it enter as a 4/4? Even though it stops being a creature. Does bellows continous effect completely apply before its own ability stops it from being a creature?
It will not enter as a 4/4. Continuous effects are updated instantly and continuously so when the trigger is looking to see if a creature entered, it won't see a creature.
I have a very simmilar question that is going on in standard and i cannot figure it out; Regarding Zur Eternal scheemer and impending creatures. Impending states that the enchantment is not a creature until the last time counter is removed, zur states that target enchantment becomes a creature, so.... how do these interact? because arena doesn't seem to figure it out correctly either, it turns into a creature but without hexproof sometimes which i think its a bug? In my mind it does become a creature since zur timestamp is later but then do they return to be "non creature" once the effect triggers and checks for timecounters on end step? Just so weiird.
After a turn cycle would I be able to sacrifice enduring as a creature again? Or would timestamp order still apply? Since bello “triggers” at the start of your turn because only during your turn does it apply. Even if I can’t loop infinitely on my turn, can I do it each cycle of turns?
Bello doesn't trigger. An ability MUST use "when", "whenever", or "at" to be a triggered ability. Bello's ability is a static ability so it won't update it's timestamp when the turn changes for the same reason Tarmogoyf doesn't get a new timestamp every time the contents of a graveyard change. If it was a triggered ability ("At the beginning of your upkeep, each ... becomes a 4/4 creature until end of turn"), then it would work how you want.
makes sense, I feel like it would be more intuitive if it did work BUT I won't say I mind there being one less infinite loop in this game, plus sounds like there a way around it anyway.
love the video but i do have one qustion about your explanation and that would be how you ordered enduring courage and greater good but shouldnt enduring courage have to always resolve first cause its a triggered ability happening as a result of activating an ability similar to that of yavimawa elder. i know it doesnt really matter for the point you are trying to make im just wondering if ive been playing these types of interactions wrong or not
@attackoncardboard ahhh ok that's what I thought but given as it's always possible for me to be in the wrong god knows it's happened before. Anyway still a great job on the video I feel like little by little in learning more about layers just by watching you
I just watched both videos on Bello's ability and am still kind of confused on how his time stamp interacts with the "During your turn" part of his ability. If his ability only activates on your turn would Enduring Courage become a creature once it is your turn again?
Bello's ability is always "active", it's constantly checking to see if it's your turn or not, and if it is, turn things into creatures. Bello's ability's timestamp is tied to a Bello. It would only get a new timestamp if Bello does.
Here might be a stupid Question Wouldn't the next Turn be a New TS for Bello's ability since it only takes place when only on your turn? Since Enduring Courage only Triggers and when it dies and RTB it should not be a Continual Check there for it would not have a TS the next time the layers are checks and would only be seen by Bello as an Enchantment and then would ADD the Creature type just like a regular MV 4 non-Aura Enchantment.
No. It would if Bello had a upkeep trigger to turn your stuff into creatures temporarily, but since it's a static effect, it has the same timestamp as Bello. Each time you reapply layers, you reapply everything not just the new ones. So as long as it's not your turn to go (starting characteristics -> becomes enchantment) whereas when it is your turn you go (starting characteristics -> becomes creature -> becomes enchantment) since in this case Bello has the earlier timestamp than Enduring Courage.
@@attackoncardboard so you could get 2 activation effects from greater good by using Bello like an enter trigger. (playing bello after the first effect)
No. It would if Bello's ability was a triggered ability ("at the beginning of you upkeep..."), but since it's a static ability it doesn't update it's timestamp every turn.
Ok the I have a question. Will this persist onto your next turn as well, or will the ability being for a lack of better term "turned off then back on" have any effect on how this interacts or will the times stamps cause the same interaction to happen.
Bello's ability never "turns off", it's continuous, hence the name "continuous effect". It's constantly checking to see if it's your turn or not. This ability will only get a new timestamp of Bello gets a new timestamp.
While I agree with this ruling. I do understand the confusion, as with the gods the later ability explicitly overrules bello. In this case, it’s a more subtle replacement as it would make sense that it once it’s an enchantment it could then be effected by bello. The continuous nature is less contradictory.
Assuming all your board remain the same, since bello skill applies only on your turn (so tecnically it switches off during opponent turn and on again on your), on your next turn endurig courage is going to become a 4/4 creature?
Bello never "switches off", it's a static ability. It's *always* checking to see if it's your turn. If it was a triggered ability, eg. "At the beginning of your upkeep... become creatures... until the end of turn", that would get a new timestamp when this ability triggers.
Would you be able to turn enduring courage into a creature on your next turn because Bellos effect states “during your turn” so it would then be applied after? Or can enduring courage never be turned into a creature unless Bello is replayed?
Quick question. If i have bello out and i cast an overlord of the hauntwoods for its impending cost, would the overlord become a 4/4 with abilities from bello? Or would time stamps make the overlord just an enchantment?
Just an enchantment for the same reason. Impending is in part a static ability of the overlord that makes it not a creature as long as it was cast with impending and has time counters on it, so it has a timestamp from when the overlord entered. If you play Bello after impending it then it will work though. 702.175a: Impending is a keyword that represents four abilities. The first and second are static abilities that function while the spell with impending is on the stack. The third is a static ability that functions on the battlefield. The fourth is a triggered ability that functions on the battlefield. "Impending N-[cost]" means "You may choose to pay [cost] rather than pay this spell's mana cost," "If you chose to pay this spell's impending cost, it enters with N time counters on it," "As long as this permanent has a time counter on it, if it was cast for its impending cost, it's not a creature," and "At the beginning of your end step, if this permanent was cast for its impending cost and there is at least one time counter on it, remove a time counter from it." Casting a spell for its impending cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f-h.
So I only watched the original video once and I am still new to magic so I cam going to try to say it in a very simple way. So basically Bello will timestamp when enduring courage came in as a creature enchantment and do his normal things but when this combo happens the first time and Enduring is brought back, Bello will check to do the change again but this time can't because Enduring has a "can't be a creature" in its text that is an alteration that happens when it comes in which is a layer that happens before Bello does his layer after since the Enduring is a static effect(correct?) So it's always going to be activated and activated first before any other effects?
Not quite. Bello gets a timestamp when it enters not when Enduring Courage does. They means it's not updated when EC dies and comes back. Enduring Courage doesn't say that it can't be a creature, but it does stop it from being a creature. That means a later effect could turn it into a creature again, but since Bello has an older timestamp than the returned EC, you start with an enchantment creature, have Bello turn it into a creature, then have Enduring Courage make it no longer a creature. If Bello died and you recast it, it would now have the newest timestamp so you would turn it into an enchantment, then back into a creature. Bello is a continuous effect created by a static ability and Enduring Courage is a continuous effect created by the resolution of a triggered ability, but the important part for deciding how to order them is that they both have Type Changing effects. That means they apply on the same layer (Layer 4: type changing effects), so in this case we use timestamps to break the tie.
The only question I have is: Will Bello turn it into a creature on your NEXT turn? Does his effect get reapplied because the effect restarts or something? Judge!
No. Bello has a static effect meaning it's timestamp is identical to Bello's (generally it will be when he entered the battlefield). If it was a triggered ability ("at the beginning of your upkeep ... become 4/4 creatures until end of turn"), then each trigger would have it's own timestamp given as it resolves and it would work that way. This also means that resetting Bello's timestamp (when he dies and is recast for example) would let him turn it into a creature again since he now applies after the Enduring Courage type changing effect.
What happens on your next turn after you sac the dog will it turn back into a creature then? Or if you sac the dog on your opponents turn will it then be a creature on your next turn?
I played Bello multiple times and won multiple times including FNM, with Enduring Courage and Enduring Vitality. So what I did in play that includes Greater Good was illegal. J - U - D - G - E!
Does bello's effect get a new time stamp at the start of each of your turns? If so, couldn't we at least use the enduring courage as a draw option in a bello deck?
If it was a triggered ability like Tezzeret the Schemer's emblem, then each trigger would have a timestamp of when the trigger resolves, but since it's a static ability, it shares a timestamp with Bello.
I was wondering, why does Yedora + life and limb/living lands + a sac outlet work when this doesn't? Is it because you aren't technically changing the power and toughness just turning the card around?
In that case dependencies apply. Life and Limb only hits forests and Saprolings, so it can't apply until after Yedora's effect has made it a forest. Bello affects enchantment creatures as well as non creature enchantments, so it is able to apply before or after Enduring Courage's effect. Therefore it's not dependent on it so they use timestamps to determine order. 613.8: Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system. 613.8a: An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
Exiling then recasting Bello does reset the timestamp, but keep in mind that command tax increases each time you do so meaning Food Chain alone won't go infinite.
@@attackoncardboard I made this comment before finishing this video where you explain it at the end. I was unsure if, post food chain combo you could loop the commander and draw your whole deck. The other comment did a great job explaining it. Its great that you and your comment section is so active at answering comments.
wait belo can't turn enduring courage into a creature until after its effect has turned it into a enchantment but since they are both static abilities i guess we are still going off when they entered regardless of when the effects would be applied
also courage enters the battle field as an enchantment and belo only checks once its in your control idk if that counts the graveyard? that should be where enduring is during resolution of its ability
just checked prolly could still be wrong but it does not count the graveyard so belo only checks for enchantments after the resolution of enduring courage at that point idk how the layers apply does it still act off the when they etb
611.2e If a resolving spell or ability both puts a nontoken permanent onto the battlefield and creates a continuous effect stating that the permanent “is [characteristic],” that continuous effect applies simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. This characteristic is usually a color or a creature type. If the continuous effect says the permanent “becomes [characteristic]” or “gains [an ability],” that effect applies after the permanent is on the battlefield. this reads to me as courage is an enchantment before entering the battlefield but
611.3c Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. They don’t wait until the permanent is on the battlefield and then change it. Because such effects apply as the permanent enters the battlefield, they are applied before determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger when it enters the battlefield. states and reads to me as bello checking at the same time so it does stay as an enchantment when it enters i think
For the first comment, Bello can apply to enchantment creatures as well as non creature enchantments so you don't need to apply the effect that makes it just an enchantment first. Bello only applies to things on the battlefield (otherwise it would need to say "enchantment cards you own" rather than "enchantments you control").
Had a weird interaction come up recently and i want to know if i was right. I had teferi out (the one that says opponents csn only cast spells at sorcery speed) and one of my opponents attempted to cast a spell with flash. I told them you cant because regardless of if it says flash or not teferi says you can only play spells at sorcery speed. So we looked into it and it resulted in the spell not being cast. Was this correct?
Yup. Teferi changes the rules of the game for your opponent. So basically a card with flash says "you can cast this spell at any time but only as a sorcery." Same reason why if you Plot an instant speed card, you can still only cast it at sorcery speed.
Teferi is very powerful. They also stop Cascade and Suspended cards from being cast. Lots of other neat interactions to. My favourite is having Teferi and Knowledge Pool in play. Locks your opponents out of casting spells completely
@attackoncardboard the same teferi or a different one? I knew drannith magistrate did that but i didnt know teferi "only i can play spells at instant speed" did
Both Teferi, Time Raveler and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir shutdown Suspended spells and cards that are Cascaded into 😃 as well as being the other half of the Knowledge Pool lock
No. Copy effects are applied on layer 1 while type changing effects are layer 4. Song of the Dryads also works to stop him since it removes abilities as part of the type changing effect, similar to Blood Moon, which means it's also in layer 4.
Would Bello's ability overwrite on your next turn making Enduring Courage a creature again or would his timestamp prevent you from having Enduring Courage become a creature until it's bounced, flickered, or reanimated?
If Bello's ability was an upkeep trigger then each time it triggered it would have it's own timestamp, but since it's a static ability, it will keep the same timestamp as Bello itself and won't update each turn. Blinking and stuff like that works to reset the timestamp. So does turning it face down then face up again.
So, unless Bello leaves and returns, it's not gonna be a creature again on your next turn? Also, I'd love to see a video covering the Impending mechanic's interaction with Bello. I *assume* the same applies, that it would not be a creature until the counters are removed unless Bello enters after they're out?
It's effectively the exact same interaction. Impending Creature has the earlier timestamp, they'll be a creature if Bello is played after. If they have the newest timestamp and Bello came into play before them, they'll stay as Enchantments.
I think this is more about bad wording on Enduring Courage. The Gods specifically say in their rules text that they are not a creature when devotion is less than X but Enduring Courage is written in a way that doesn't make it clear. Especially because the "It's not a creature." part is in italics, making it reminder text and not rule text.
I don't know the rules as good as others, so I have to defer to your knowledge on things like this. Still I want to ask this, "During your turn" sounds like a trigger ability. (Though I admit it's worded in a non-standard way). It also implies that the effect ends at end of turn (although that is usually stated explicitly). Per 611.2c, Bello's ability would gain a new time stamp when it resolves anew during your turn. So, after dying, our good boy would come back and force it's self to be an enchantment as you explained. But then on the next turn, Bello's ability's time stamp would be updated and thus change the good boy back into a creature. Again, still not an infinite combo. But from what you're saying I'm wrong about something here. Also, forgive a silly question, but the Enduring Courage can't be a creature when it comes back, but that doesn't stop the other parts of the change, correct? That is to say you have an enchantment that has indestructable, haste, "when this creature damages..." and a P/T. Of all that, only indestructable is useful, but technically, it's still there, right?
Triggered abilities are explicitly denoted by "When/Whenever/At". CR603.1. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as “[When/Whenever/At] [trigger condition or event], [effect]. [Instructions (if any).]” Bello's ability is refered to as a Static Ability. CR113.3d Static abilities are written as statements. They’re simply true. If Bello's ability said "At the beginning of your upkeep... become creatures... until the end of turn." Then yes, Bello's ability would get a new timestamp when this ability triggered at the start of your turn. And yes, that's an oversight on my part. Enduring Courage at the end of the example would still have the abilities given to them by Bello.
@@attackoncardboard Thanks for the response. I appreciate your patience in dealing with me on things like this. Yes, normally triggered effects have “[When/Whenever/At]" That's why I said it looks like a nonstandard wording to me. "Static abilities are written as statements. They’re simply true." So then why have "during"? "During" refers to a time. If it's a static ability, then it shouldn't need a reference to any game time units because it's simply true all the time, right? I guess what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is this. What's the difference between these two (theoretical) statements? "At the beginning of your upkeep, [this creature] gains flying until end of turn." and "During your turn, [this creature] has flying." What I see: “During [trigger condition or event], [effect]." This doesn't fit for the definition of a static ability. And doesn't have the required "[When/Whenever/At]" for a triggered ability. So, it ends up feeling like a grey area of non-standard wording. (As near as I can figure, it's a wording that is used on, maybe, 100 magic cards. Most of which wouldn't cause the level of problems that Bello has been causing for people.) Sorry for being thick headed about this.
@@jj-sc1kq " I guess what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is this. What's the difference between these two (theoretical) statements? "At the beginning of your upkeep, [this creature] gains flying until end of turn." and "During your turn, [this creature] has flying."" The first is a triggered ability, uses the stack and therefore can be responded to. The second is a static ability that doesn't use the stack and can't be responded to.
Bello's ability is always "active". It's always checking to see if it's your turn or not. Remember, for static abilities, the ability's timestamp is tied to the card. itself.
MINOR CORRECTION:
- For some reason I got it in my head that Greater Good is a triggered ability and would be placed on the stack at the same time as Enduring Courage, therefore you can choose the order in which it resolves. I incorrectly stated that you could resolve the Greater Good ability *before* Enduring Courage's triggered ability. I have cut this incorrect statement out of the video.
The main point of the video is still correct and this error has effectively no impact on grand scheme of things.
- Also technically the Enduring Courage would also have the abilities given to it by Bello, haste, indestructible and "draw", even though it's not a creature.
Also shout out to @seandun7083 who is being a absolute legend and replying to the comments in this video (with the correct answers/info). Much appreciated!
Okay you can't infinite combo in the same turn but what about the next turn will Courage still stay an enchantment with no other types and not become a 4/4 creature?? or because of time stamps it forever just stays a normal enchantment until you flicker Bellow and get a new time stamp on him?
@@Rkguerra12 Did you watch the last part of the video? ;) 9:05
So we've got a +1 card draw on each of our turn, thanks to bello time stamp reseting each time ?
@@retroorder3230 Only if you can flicker Bello, otherwise Enduring Courage never becomes a creature.
@@retroorder3230 No. A permanent's timestamp doesn't reset every turn unless you do something to reset it.
If you had a nickel for every time you had to talk about layer interactions with Bello with enchantment creatures...
TBH as a bello player, I appreciate it when he makes these videos
...you'd have two nickels, wich isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice
For me I've had to learn and apply it for Ashaya and the many cards that interact with nonbasic lands.
My thinking before watching the explanation is that the dog's timestamp is gonna be later than the raccoon, therefore its ability to turn it into an enchantment gets applied after raccoon ability, making it an enchantment. So if you could somehow blink your raccoon each time the dog entered, that should be infinite?
Edit after watching: Oh wow! I think I got it right, and I also clocked the trick with blinking Bello. Kind of proud of myself for this one hahah
Just blink the courage
@@famousstranger8468it's easier to blink a creature, then enchantment
I love these clarification videos. It wasn't immediately obvious to me, but by defining which layers apply to what abilities, it became clear, fast, that it's a timestamp issue. I would have completely missed that had it not been pointed out.
8:35 - While no longer a creature, Enduring Courage will still have I, H, "Draw".
Very odd but true...
H and draw are useless but I is very relevant in current meta.
4:18 You get an instance of Greater Good's activated ability, not a triggered ability. With that in mind, you cannot resolve GG's activated ability first as Enduring Courage's triggered ability will always go on top of it.
Yeah I made a mistake. I have cut this minor error from the video. I got it in my head that it was a trigger.
This is the exact type of loop someone would use in a MtG Anime. Probably with a janky flicker engine with Eerie / Constellation.
The funny thing is, flickering either bello or the enduring courage should do the trick since the enduring courage should enter as a fresh version of the card and lose the trigger from the second ability. I might be wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure it works that way.
It can't go infinite, but they still have some cool interactions. For instance, anything that Bello changes to a creature will enter as a creature with +2/+0 so it will be a 6/4 and can be sacrificed after combat to draw 6 and discard 3. This could really help push through redundant cards to find essential tools.
Assuming it enters on your turn, yes. It probably wouldn't come up too often in Gruul colours, but if it isn't your turn when the Enchantment or Artifact enters, thanks to an Instant bringing it out or Flash or something, it won't be able to trigger Enduring Courage.
@@Kahadi Of course, but then it can't be sacrificed either. Bello really just wants to do everything on his turn
Hey! Just found out you'll be on the newly formed Commander Format Panel! Good to hear! Excited to see how you and the others on the Panel work to keep Commander in the hands of the community!
I'll have a video about this dropping in the next 48h, hopefully answering all your questions 😀
Awesome video. Thank you for teaching us about layers! I think I’m finally getting layers and time stamps. Im going to make a token kind of card to walk through them and use dice to mark time stamp effects to clarify it during games.
Once you know about Layers, you'll start to see them in every game and they become easier to understand 😀
Tho their is something important to notice here
Enduring Courage has still base power and toughness 4/4, it has indestructable, haste and "Whenever this permanent deals combat damage to a player, draw a card". But because it isn't a creature, the haste and power and toughness don't really apply. But like if you then equip Luxior, Giada's Gift somehow to Enduring Courage, it will be a 4/4 and can attack.
It wouldn't have p/t 4/4. The effect would exist, and like you said, if it became a creature again, it would apply, but it doesn't have 4/4 while it's not a creature (208.3a)
It will however have "haste" and "whenever this deals combat damage to a player, draw a card" which are functionally useless, as haste doesn't matter and a no creature can't deal combat damage as far as I know, but are still abilities the card has.
And as you mentioned it just has working indestructible
Great explanation! Thank you! This example helped me better understand the concept of layers and timestamps.
This changes nothing for me. Enduring Courage is still going into my Bello deck. He may not give me infinite draw, but he's still a good boy and does Bello things, thus still fits. Gotta love layers, though. Or hate them. Depends on your point of view.
Dogginess aside, is it really that synergistic with Bello? Bello already gives the things that matter the most in your deck haste, and the +2 power on the turn they enter doesn't feel like something I'd care enough about to use a slot in my deck for. I pulled one and considered it briefly for Bello but at least the way my deck is shaped it seems really unnecessary.
@@CountDankula420 I think it's enough to be worthwhile. You'll likely still be running creatures without the Enchantment or Artifact type, too, so I think Enduring Courage is perfectly usable. And if Enduring Courage has died once, recasting Bello let's it be a creature again. Sounds like a reasonable include, and especially in Commander where you can have these sorts of "it's in because I want it in" choices.
@@CountDankula420 That +2 can matter a lot if they also have trample (Archetype of Agression anyone?)
Timestamps (Insert meme of the guy explaining aliens)
Bellows ability is an earlier timestamp and is applied before the dog takes it away again
That was really well explained and illustrated. Thanks!
Enduring Courage's trigger actually resolves before Greater Good's activated ability (4:28)
Yeah I made a mistake. I have cut this minor error from the video. I got it in my head that it was a trigger.
So my thoughts on this (heavily simplified because RUclips bugged out a ton and seems to have exploded my initial, much more detailed response lol)
Layering is a relatively obscure and complicated piece of the comprehensive rulings to newer players. Reminder text is also relatively weird to newer players, because on a surface level, it's technically not rules text. Reminder text sometimes contradicts or omits from the comprehensive rules to save space, and has created some relatively weird sounding interactions in the past, with examples like Dryad Arbor + Suspend (Spell not keyword. The reminder text on the latter spell implies it would enter with haste, "If it's a creature, it has haste." but the comprehensive rules of the suspend keyword as featured on that spell would mean it enters without haste, because it specifies "If you cast a creature spell this way..." and Dryad Arbor is not cast, because it is a land) and Atraxa, Grand Unifier (omits some card types from the reminder text, such as Tribal) and Blind Obedience (it is legal in mono-White decks, despite the reminder text having a W/B mana symbol, because reminder text in this instance is only in said reminder text, not in any other ability costs.)
I think that there should on occasion be listings on rulings resources like Gatherer to specify and give citations to the relevant rules, because it's easier to direct a newbie to the rules site, and easier to casually search on that site for a specific card's interaction, than it is to do the same thing across RUclips or Reddit or what have you. Could be helpful I think.
Gatherer usually has common rulings for the cards on their pages, but obviously they can't account for everything
@@attackoncardboard I actually went and double checked before commenting just to make sure, yeah. Just would appreciate it for future use, I think. Could make rules in general easier to understand for less experienced players, and for players trying to introduce inexperienced players to the game, since official rules resources like that are often *much* easier to understand than the comprehensive rules or citations to such rules on wikis. These videos you provide are actually very helpful for learning it, thankfully, but some of my friends would probably not get it until they've played for at least a month or two.
I think a little section on why these aren't dependent effects is good for these kinds of interactions, because when those arise it is nice to be familiar with them instead of only thinking about them for those cases that they matter.
If Bellows would have said "non creature", then dependency would have applied, and the combo would have worked
Funky note: The rest of Bello's continuous effect also applies to Enduring Courage, even though it ceased to be a Creature. Enduring Courage still gains Indestructible, Haste, and 4/4 power/toughness even though it is not a Creature anymore, because once a continuous ability begins to apply in an earlier layer to an object, it continues to apply to that object for the rest of the process. Now, having 4/4 power/toughness and Haste does not really *benefit* Enduring Courage in any way, since non-creatures don't have any way to *use* their p/t, but it does technically have them. Being Indestructible certainly could end up being meaningful, however, so it is worth noting.
Yeah. I think the 4/4 part could be relevant if you have Enchanted Evening and a vehicle, but otherwise most effects that would make it a creature without overwrite it's p/t anyways.
Ah, so the "it's an enchantment" is part of a continuous/replacement effect, and because of that timestamp matters 😭
Commenting before the answer: it doesn't work because enduring courage has the most recent timestamp and says "it is not a creature" this effect overrules all other typal effects?
So I just gotta get a way to blink bello whenever courage gets on the battlefield?
displacer kitten, cryptolith rite, and a deck full of 1 mana spells
You may want to look into Opalesence and Replenish type effects with Rooms. If a Room enters and wasn't cast, both sides are locked, and a Room only has the characteristics of the unlocked side/s. Which in this situation are neither, which make the Room a zero cost Enchantment Room, that would immediately die to the Opalesence effect.
Rooms also have some funky rules when dealing with copies. You copy the open Room and the copy does get the option of unlocking the other side.
Unlocking a Room is also a special action, and cannot be responded to.
Also I'm seeing a lot of Bello's friend Wildsear, Scouring Maw in Room lists. If people understood how split cards work, they would realize that you can't Cascade into a Room.
I covered Rooms in my Duskmourn video, but if I have to make another Bello video. So be it 🤣
@@attackoncardboard it's not necessarily Bello, but the alt Commander for the deck Wildsear.
With how ridiculously complex Rooms are, and that Marina Vendrell is getting popular(1448 decks as of this comment). A Rooms primer may be needed.
Good point. I'll put this on my ideas list and see which one ignites the most inspiration this weekend when I write some scripts 😀
You only copy which room is already open if you copy a room spell, not if you copy a room permanent.
You can cascade into a room if the cascade spell costs more than the total MV, but yeah that will be harder than just being more than either half.
@@seandun7083 CR 709.5. Some split cards are permanent cards with a single shared type line. A shared type line on such an object represents two static abilities that function on the battlefield. These are “As long as this
permanent doesn’t have the ‘left half unlocked’ designation, it doesn’t have the name, mana cost, or rules text of this object’s left half” and “As long as this permanent doesn’t have the ‘right half unlocked’ designation, it doesn’t have the name, mana cost, or rules text of this object’s right half.”
These abilities, as well as which half of that permanent a characteristic is in, are part of that object’s
copiable values.
And
CR 709.5b The existence of each half of an object with a shared type line is part of that object’s copiable values, even if that object is a spell on the stack. This is an exception to rule 709.3b
TLDR: when you copy a Room, you copy not only what is Unlocked, but what is Locked as well, and you gain the ability to Unlock the locked parts
8:40 wouldn't Enduring Courage still gain the abilities granted by Bello?
My guess for why not is because since it never becomes a creature due to timestamps, everything bello tries to apply to it also fizzles since it needs to apply in order starting with becoming a creature
@@EnRandomSten I'm very sure it will have the abilities. I just phrased it as a question. 😅
@EnRandomSten as explained bellos effect gets applied and then overwritten.
7:27 Why wouldn't being an enchantment mean there wouldn't be any further changes? If that was the case, wouldn't Enduring Courage go infinite with itself + Greater Good then? It would never truly die and thus make the reminder text of not being a creature wrong.
The point I was making was that I thought that "Is an enchantment." is the same as "Is an enchantment in addition to any other types that would be granted to it.".
As I go on to say, "Is an enchantment." effectively means "Is an enchantment and loses all other card types."
One thing I find confusing here and would love clarification on. Since Bello's ability only works on your turn, would he turn Enduring Courage back into a creature on your next turn, allowing this to be a once a turn combo? Or does Enduring Courage's effect keep him an enchantment on all subsequent turns?
This is my same question
I'll pose you a question to see if I can make this click for you (If you still don't get it let me know and I'll explain 😁).
What is the Timestamp of Bello's ability? Is it older or newer than Enduring Courage's effect?
@@attackoncardboardSo if someone blows up Bello, then I replay Bello, the timestamp resets and Bello makes it a creature again?
@@ryanderenbecker8837 613.7d An object receives a timestamp at the time it enters a zone.
So when you play the "new" Bello, they will have a newer timestamp and when we go to apply the Layers, they will be applied last :)
@attackoncardboard I am still unsure, as I feel like it goes "off" after my turn ends. So it going back "on" make it have the newer timestamp?
I took out Greater Good from my build & don't plan on putting Enduring Courage in my Bello. However, I just put in Overlord of the Boilerbilges because if I cast it for it's Impending cost it'd be a 4 cmc/mana value enchantment. Plus, I like its ability. I also put in a Room, Charred Foyer/Warped Space. Thought that would be neat too in Bello!
Keep in mind that Bello can only turn an impending Overlord into a creature if Bello is played afterwards.
The two type changing effects will apply in timestamp order meaning that if you played Bello first, it will be turned into a creature and then no longer be a creature from Impending.
i am pretty sure that a die trigger trigger before the sacrifice effect
Yeah I made a mistake. I have cut this minor error from the video. I got it in my head that it was a trigger.
Very good explained 😊 i am allways surprised how thick the magic rulebook is 😅
I'm guessing Stanfield of nyx and opalecense and the enduring cards is the same interaction
I'm slowly coming around on this. I feel the shorthand should start with timestamping, then explain what layer rulings are applied
Honestly the funniest part is because of how the timestamps apply the abilities Enduring Courage will be an Enchantment Creature - Dog Glimmer Elemental until it dies. Once it comes back, assuming the stamps are right, Bello will turn it into an Enchantment Creature - Elemental only. I just think that's kind of funny.
Modifier text…gotta love it
Type dependancy layer, both effects act in the same layer so they are defined by time stamp so the last effect on the field wins therefore the glimmer effect wins over the racoon
No dependency here. Neither effect changes the other's effect. Just regular old Timestamps.
@@attackoncardboard they both change the card type so there is a type dependancy involved.
There's a very easy to figure out if there's a dependency:
If you control Enduring Courage that is a creature, and a second Enduring Courage that has become an enchantment, which one is affected by Bello?
Since you're claiming Enduring Courage's ability changes whether or not Enduring Courage is affected by Bello's ability (since that is when you use dependencies instead of timestamps), then it should only be affecting one of these permanents. So which one is it?
Can you explain the Phyrexian Vraska whe Innkeeper's combo? Specifically why Vraska comes in with enough counters to ultimate even if you spend phyrexian mana on her?
Since both the compleated ability and the 3rd chapter of Innkeeper's Talent are replacement effects, the controller of the affected permanent (Vraska) gets to choose which order they apply in. Therefore you can double them, then reduce them by 2 for the most favorable outcome.
I have to second the question of the Enduring enchantment cards from duskmourn and their interactions with Starfield of Nyx. If you've got 7 enchantments, an enduring enchantment creature dies and comes back, making the trigger go from 6 enchantments back to 7 again, would that reapply Starfield of Nyx? Or does the effect of Starfield of Nyx get tied to it's own timestamp, regardless of WHEN the 7 enchantment requirement is met, therefore making the enduring card the only non-creature enchantment on the board?
The latter. Starfield of Nyx's 2nd ability is just like Bello. Its Timestamp is tied to the card/object itself.
So if you had a "dead" Enduring creature that came back *after* Starfield of Nyx entered play, the Enduring creatures "Is an Enchantment" effect will be applied *after* Starfield as it has the newest timestamp.
Starfield will only animate "dead" Enduring creatures if Starfield comes into play after they died.
@@attackoncardboard Appreciate the reply. Guess it's time to find a way to blink Starfield with an enchantment/artifact for this idea. Really excited to use the Miracle Worker precon as a base for a Zur Enchantment Creature deck, and was kind of banking on this interaction to make perpetual creatures. Back to the drawing board! - I WISH there was something as simple as a Teleportation Circle but for enchantments! Maybe Venser...
0:20 - wait, why is it not a combo?
0:25 - oh, right, timestamps...
It's funny how, being fully aware of every single rule involved here, I didn't actually catch what was going on until you mentioned timestamps. Cards are complicated!
Layers are some of the most important rule that players don't learn. They're used in every single game.
They look/sound intimidating, but they're easy once you know what to look for 😁
@@attackoncardboard Yeah, agreed. They have a much undeserved bad rep. But I guess the dog's ability didn't parse as a layer 4 ability at first glance for some reason... as soon as I re-read the cards, I said "oooh"
I feel like quite a bit of confusion with this card could have been avoided if that said "at the beginning of combat on your turn..." rather than making it a static ability, but hey it gives people a chance to learn about layers.
You better tell Enduring Courage he's a good boy!!!
oh my favorate LAYERS
This reminds me of the gods interaction. Pretty much the timestamp means “it’s an enchantment, it’s not a creature” gets applied after Bello, so it’s no longer a creature
Exactly!
@8:00 does this also mean that while bello is out, ensuring creature is NOT an enchantment? Only a creature? So enchantment removals would not work on my turn (while playing bello) only creature (or elemental) removal?
"in addition to its other types", so they'll be Enchantment Creatures.
So, would a card similar to Bello work on later turns if it was a triggered ability instead of a continuous ability? Basically, if it was 'At the beginning of Y phase, artifacts and enchantments become X/X somethings with A, B, C until end of turn', would the ability have a later timestamp than the card?
Correct!
Speaking of flicker, if you somehow flicker enduring courage (as an enchantment only), it resets to being an enchantment creature?
Yeah. In that case it's an entirely new object with no memory of it's former self.
@@seandun7083 Perfect, I guess if there's a way to flicker an enchantment, you can technically draw out your entire deck!
@@hashswap Blinking Bello also works since that means it now has a new timestamp and applies after the effect making it just an enchantment. Skybind almost does that but returns him at end of turn.
Ok so what about impending?
Is it a time stamp situation as well?
So
//overlord first and bello second// does work
but not the other way around?
Exactly the same!
While not infinitely repeatable, this can be repeated by bringing Bello out after Enduring Courage returns as an Enchantment. So if you sac Enduring Courage to Greater Good before bringing Bello out, you draw 3 and discsrd 3, then bring Bello out and Enduring Courage would become a Creature again, letting you sax Enduring Courage again to draw 4 this time and discard 3. And you can do it again any time Bello leaves the battlefield and returns, be it by killing Bello and bringing it back from the Command Zone, using a bounce effect then recasting it, using a flicker effect, or killing it and letting it go to the graveyard so you can use a reanimate effect. Enduring Courage does not overwrite Bello's ability if Bello comes out after it.
Dear god I actually got it right. Well sorta. I knew that enduring courage would come back as a creature and then lose the type creature, but I wasn’t sure how time stamp would effect it
So theoretically if you could flicker Bello to change it’s timestamp, would that allow the combo to work? Using something like an Eldrazi displacer.
*Edit: You’d have to do it every loop.
Yeah. If Bello's timestamp gets reset to apply after Enduring Courage's type changing effect then it will end up as a creature. Of course once it dies and returns again it will have the later timestamp again so you would need to blink Bello multiple times.
I presume this works the same with cards like Opalescence or Starfield of Nyx? Their abilities applying before the Enduring Courage’s meaning it won’t change back into a creature.
Yeah
What if Bello is removed and brought back into play while Enduring Courage is only an enchantment? Does the timestamp rule put Bello's effect after Enduring Courage's effect?
Would the Belos' ability granting of the draw trigger, haste and (most importantly) indestructible still apply to the enchantment only version?
Yes
The enchantment would still have indestructible and haste though, correct?
Yup, I made a mistake there
Similarly.... this looks like it would be the same if you used any of these glimmers but with Opalessence instead of Belo
Just a question on a ruleing for enduring courage the ruleing "Dog and Glimmer are both creature types. Enduring Courage won't have those creature types when its last ability returns it to the battlefield because it won't be a creature." Would this me that the effect of enduring courage apply when it is off field
The type changing effect only applies once it's returned to the battlefield and lasts as long as it's on the battlefield. In other zones it will still be a creature.
Does the just an enchantment Enduring Courage have indestructible from Bellow? Its type was overridden but it seems like the rest of Bellow's effect should still try to apply in later layers.
Yeah. Since Bello started to apply it's effect, it will continue to apply the rest of it.
Now that i see layers everywhere, i have an interaction which needs clarification. If i get and enchantment-creature with my Anikthea, Hand of Erebos but i also have Starfield of Nyx in play, which would set its Power and toughtness? and if that enchantmente creature is Heliod, God of the Sun? My head is about to explode right now 😅
Btw, good video as always!
Slightly different issue here.
Here we need to look at rules about Copying. Specifically this one:
707.9b Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final set of values for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values of the copy.
Example: Copy Artifact is an enchantment that reads, “You may have Copy Artifact enter as a copy of any artifact on the battlefield, except it’s an enchantment in addition to its other types.” It enters the battlefield as a copy of Juggernaut. The copiable values of the Copy Artifact now match those of Juggernaut with one modification: its types are now artifact, creature, and enchantment.
So in this case, when Anikthea copies the enchantment, she also gives it the instructions "except it’s a 3/3 black Zombie creature in addition to its other types.". This continuous effect is all contained within Layer 1.
So because Starfield of Nyx's P/T setting ability happens in Layer 7b. It will apply *after* Anikthea. So a Anikthea'ed Heliod, God of the Sun will be a 4/4 with Starfield in play.
@@attackoncardboard okay, I think i need to rewatch the layers video to remember them but thankyou!, I get the logic now.
But i have one doubt, if starfield's effect is not active and you dont have your white devotion devotion for Heliod, would it be a 3/3 enchantment creature or just an enchantment as happens in this video?
Ah yes, sorry. I forgot he has that clause. So that's where Timestamps come into play for that.
If you don't have devotion, as long as Starfield of Nyx has the newest Timestamp, they'll be a creature. Same as my last Bello video.
I am a little bit confused about the timestamps. So "having control of something" comes before that something enters the battlefield? And since Enduring Courage's ability applies on "entering the battlefield", that is why it comes after Bello, who has only the "having control" condition?
Otherwise they aren't happening at the same time, are they?
Bello is already on the field. Enduring courage dies, then it comes back. This version that comes back is, as far as the game is concerned, a brand new card with brand new timestamps. And since it arrived after Bello, it applies after it.
Dying and returning "refreshes" the timestamp
I think it can go infinite with more pieces, I'm just trying to figure out what, while still retaining Bello as the commander, that is. Trivially easy if you add white.
It did not say in the card “it loses all other card types”, but it does say “it’s not a creature”… so you’re definitely right about that. One thing I was wondering though, while it’s an enchantment creature, Bello does turn him into a 4/4, right? Wouldn’t it be best to just blink enduring courage? Doesn’t blinking it make it turn back into a creature?
Keeping the original type(s) when a type-changing effect happens is the exception, not the rule. That's why cards like Bello specifically say "in addition to its other types"
You don't need to write "it loses all other card types" because that's just how the rules work. I will admit I don't know enough about weird corner cases to say why something like Darksteel Mutation needs to specify it while something like Spreading Seas doesn't.
@@brad_soup Unless the permanent becomes an artifact creature. Then the default is that it adds those types
@@sy-py Do you have an example?
@@brad_soup March of the Machines, for example.
Stuff in parentheses is a reminder of core game rules that apply in the situation. They would still apply even if not explicitly stated and are only there to provide a helpful summary of something you'll probably need to know. They don't always tell you every detail if it's not relevant. Other types aren't mentioned in the parentheses because doggo isn't normally any of those other types.
I literally never thought about this “combo”. Turns out I know more about layers than I thought.
Can you explain in great detail what happens when I play a Forest, having Preston, the Vanisher and Nature's Revolt on the battlefield?
Are you sure this is how it works, given that the Forest doesn't have a copiable characteristic of being a creature? My guess was it applies the "white" and p/t exceptions to the token but not the illusion type. Although I'm not sure about the type. It may be that it's applied in the background, waiting for the token to become a creature to start being visible. I keep asking people this question and every time I get a different answer. I'd love it if you made a short that definitely solves it by giving specific CR citation.
To add to this, I'd like to know exactly how the token looks if I get rid of Nature's Revolt afterwards.
You're right. There's more to this. I'll try and make a short this weekend.
Very interesting rules, I thought Forest would surely be copy-abme seeing as "Copy land" is a card.
That is an interesting one. I definitely got less confident in my answer when I realized it didn't say "... except it's a 0/1 white illusion *creature* ."
my question would be this what would happen at the start of the next turn would it still just be a enchantment or will the fact that its a new turn make it a creature again. based off of what i am seeing in this video i am making an assumption that it would still remain just an enchantment.
Here's a question that hopefully clicks the answer for you. What is Bello's ability Timestamp? Did anything cause it to get updated/refreshed?
Would a warstorm surge see it enter as a 4/4? Even though it stops being a creature. Does bellows continous effect completely apply before its own ability stops it from being a creature?
It will not enter as a 4/4. Continuous effects are updated instantly and continuously so when the trigger is looking to see if a creature entered, it won't see a creature.
I have a very simmilar question that is going on in standard and i cannot figure it out; Regarding Zur Eternal scheemer and impending creatures.
Impending states that the enchantment is not a creature until the last time counter is removed, zur states that target enchantment becomes a creature, so.... how do these interact? because arena doesn't seem to figure it out correctly either, it turns into a creature but without hexproof sometimes which i think its a bug?
In my mind it does become a creature since zur timestamp is later but then do they return to be "non creature" once the effect triggers and checks for timecounters on end step?
Just so weiird.
They will be creatures. Zur can only have a later timestamp than impending. Impending won't get a new one each turn.
After a turn cycle would I be able to sacrifice enduring as a creature again? Or would timestamp order still apply? Since bello “triggers” at the start of your turn because only during your turn does it apply. Even if I can’t loop infinitely on my turn, can I do it each cycle of turns?
Bello doesn't trigger. An ability MUST use "when", "whenever", or "at" to be a triggered ability. Bello's ability is a static ability so it won't update it's timestamp when the turn changes for the same reason Tarmogoyf doesn't get a new timestamp every time the contents of a graveyard change.
If it was a triggered ability ("At the beginning of your upkeep, each ... becomes a 4/4 creature until end of turn"), then it would work how you want.
makes sense, I feel like it would be more intuitive if it did work BUT I won't say I mind there being one less infinite loop in this game, plus sounds like there a way around it anyway.
And here i thought it was cause it wasn't a creature anymore the moment it died. But the layers make more sense.
love the video but i do have one qustion about your explanation and that would be how you ordered enduring courage and greater good but shouldnt enduring courage have to always resolve first cause its a triggered ability happening as a result of activating an ability similar to that of yavimawa elder.
i know it doesnt really matter for the point you are trying to make im just wondering if ive been playing these types of interactions wrong or not
He explained it wrong. The enduring courage always returns to the field first, before Greater Good resolves and lets you draw.
Yeah I made a mistake. I have cut this minor error from the video. I got it in my head that it was a trigger.
@attackoncardboard ahhh ok that's what I thought but given as it's always possible for me to be in the wrong god knows it's happened before.
Anyway still a great job on the video I feel like little by little in learning more about layers just by watching you
I just watched both videos on Bello's ability and am still kind of confused on how his time stamp interacts with the "During your turn" part of his ability. If his ability only activates on your turn would Enduring Courage become a creature once it is your turn again?
Bello's ability is always "active", it's constantly checking to see if it's your turn or not, and if it is, turn things into creatures.
Bello's ability's timestamp is tied to a Bello. It would only get a new timestamp if Bello does.
Here might be a stupid Question Wouldn't the next Turn be a New TS for Bello's ability since it only takes place when only on your turn? Since Enduring Courage only Triggers and when it dies and RTB it should not be a Continual Check there for it would not have a TS the next time the layers are checks and would only be seen by Bello as an Enchantment and then would ADD the Creature type just like a regular MV 4 non-Aura Enchantment.
No. It would if Bello had a upkeep trigger to turn your stuff into creatures temporarily, but since it's a static effect, it has the same timestamp as Bello.
Each time you reapply layers, you reapply everything not just the new ones. So as long as it's not your turn to go (starting characteristics -> becomes enchantment) whereas when it is your turn you go (starting characteristics -> becomes creature -> becomes enchantment) since in this case Bello has the earlier timestamp than Enduring Courage.
what if you have Enduring Courage in play with greater good in play & bello in your hand & 3 open mana. You sac courage & then play bello?
Bello will have the newest Timestamp and their effect will be applied last. (Turning Courage into a Creature.)
@@attackoncardboard so you could get 2 activation effects from greater good by using Bello like an enter trigger. (playing bello after the first effect)
Effectively, yes 🙂
After enduring become just an enchanment, the next turn when bellos ability reapllies will it be a creature again?
No. It would if Bello's ability was a triggered ability ("at the beginning of you upkeep..."), but since it's a static ability it doesn't update it's timestamp every turn.
Ok the I have a question. Will this persist onto your next turn as well, or will the ability being for a lack of better term "turned off then back on" have any effect on how this interacts or will the times stamps cause the same interaction to happen.
Bello's ability never "turns off", it's continuous, hence the name "continuous effect". It's constantly checking to see if it's your turn or not.
This ability will only get a new timestamp of Bello gets a new timestamp.
While I agree with this ruling.
I do understand the confusion, as with the gods the later ability explicitly overrules bello. In this case, it’s a more subtle replacement as it would make sense that it once it’s an enchantment it could then be effected by bello.
The continuous nature is less contradictory.
Assuming all your board remain the same, since bello skill applies only on your turn (so tecnically it switches off during opponent turn and on again on your), on your next turn endurig courage is going to become a 4/4 creature?
Bello never "switches off", it's a static ability. It's *always* checking to see if it's your turn.
If it was a triggered ability, eg. "At the beginning of your upkeep... become creatures... until the end of turn", that would get a new timestamp when this ability triggers.
So it's a not-creature and so it remain until bello go out of the battlefield, die something similar, gotcha.
ty
And if Bello dies and then I play it or if I blink Bello?
They'll have a new Timestamp.
Would you be able to turn enduring courage into a creature on your next turn because Bellos effect states “during your turn” so it would then be applied after? Or can enduring courage never be turned into a creature unless Bello is replayed?
When did Bello's ability Timestamp change?
the card doesnt say "in addition to its other types", does this indicate that its just an enchantment?
Yes.
9:05 Not that it's the right colour, but Skybind is exactly the card for this situation.
Unfortunately it waits until end step so it still doesn't go infinite, but you can definitely get lots of value from it.
Quick question. If i have bello out and i cast an overlord of the hauntwoods for its impending cost, would the overlord become a 4/4 with abilities from bello? Or would time stamps make the overlord just an enchantment?
Just an enchantment for the same reason.
Impending is in part a static ability of the overlord that makes it not a creature as long as it was cast with impending and has time counters on it, so it has a timestamp from when the overlord entered.
If you play Bello after impending it then it will work though.
702.175a: Impending is a keyword that represents four abilities. The first and second are static abilities that function while the spell with impending is on the stack. The third is a static ability that functions on the battlefield. The fourth is a triggered ability that functions on the battlefield. "Impending N-[cost]" means "You may choose to pay [cost] rather than pay this spell's mana cost," "If you chose to pay this spell's impending cost, it enters with N time counters on it," "As long as this permanent has a time counter on it, if it was cast for its impending cost, it's not a creature," and "At the beginning of your end step, if this permanent was cast for its impending cost and there is at least one time counter on it, remove a time counter from it." Casting a spell for its impending cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f-h.
@@seandun7083 yeah figured. Thank you so much!
So I only watched the original video once and I am still new to magic so I cam going to try to say it in a very simple way. So basically Bello will timestamp when enduring courage came in as a creature enchantment and do his normal things but when this combo happens the first time and Enduring is brought back, Bello will check to do the change again but this time can't because Enduring has a "can't be a creature" in its text that is an alteration that happens when it comes in which is a layer that happens before Bello does his layer after since the Enduring is a static effect(correct?) So it's always going to be activated and activated first before any other effects?
Not quite. Bello gets a timestamp when it enters not when Enduring Courage does. They means it's not updated when EC dies and comes back.
Enduring Courage doesn't say that it can't be a creature, but it does stop it from being a creature. That means a later effect could turn it into a creature again, but since Bello has an older timestamp than the returned EC, you start with an enchantment creature, have Bello turn it into a creature, then have Enduring Courage make it no longer a creature.
If Bello died and you recast it, it would now have the newest timestamp so you would turn it into an enchantment, then back into a creature.
Bello is a continuous effect created by a static ability and Enduring Courage is a continuous effect created by the resolution of a triggered ability, but the important part for deciding how to order them is that they both have Type Changing effects. That means they apply on the same layer (Layer 4: type changing effects), so in this case we use timestamps to break the tie.
The only question I have is:
Will Bello turn it into a creature on your NEXT turn? Does his effect get reapplied because the effect restarts or something?
Judge!
No. Bello has a static effect meaning it's timestamp is identical to Bello's (generally it will be when he entered the battlefield).
If it was a triggered ability ("at the beginning of your upkeep ... become 4/4 creatures until end of turn"), then each trigger would have it's own timestamp given as it resolves and it would work that way.
This also means that resetting Bello's timestamp (when he dies and is recast for example) would let him turn it into a creature again since he now applies after the Enduring Courage type changing effect.
What happens on your next turn after you sac the dog will it turn back into a creature then? Or if you sac the dog on your opponents turn will it then be a creature on your next turn?
Which would have the newer timestamp? Bello or the Dog?
wouldnt enduring courage be a enchanment- elemental dog glimmer? becuase elemental dog and glimmer are subtypes, not card types?
As I learnt in my last Bello video, if they don't have a Creature type, they can't gain a Creature subtype.
@@DarthJaneas of MH3, Tribal has been replaced with Kindred. But yes, forgot that one!
could you just add skybind to the mix to go infinite?
ah, "return at endstep" woops
Not a loop, but the enduring cards are really cool in enchants decks
I played Bello multiple times and won multiple times including FNM, with Enduring Courage and Enduring Vitality. So what I did in play that includes Greater Good was illegal. J - U - D - G - E!
Does bello's effect get a new time stamp at the start of each of your turns? If so, couldn't we at least use the enduring courage as a draw option in a bello deck?
Nope, the ability is tied to Bello's Timestamp, so unless Bello changes zones or is turned face down and face up, they wont get a new timestamp.
If it was a triggered ability like Tezzeret the Schemer's emblem, then each trigger would have a timestamp of when the trigger resolves, but since it's a static ability, it shares a timestamp with Bello.
@@attackoncardboard Yikes! That makes that REALLY bad.
I was wondering, why does Yedora + life and limb/living lands + a sac outlet work when this doesn't? Is it because you aren't technically changing the power and toughness just turning the card around?
In that case dependencies apply.
Life and Limb only hits forests and Saprolings, so it can't apply until after Yedora's effect has made it a forest.
Bello affects enchantment creatures as well as non creature enchantments, so it is able to apply before or after Enduring Courage's effect. Therefore it's not dependent on it so they use timestamps to determine order.
613.8: Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system.
613.8a: An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
Could you use food chain to make this work by resetting the timestamp?
Reset whose timestamp?
Exiling then recasting Bello does reset the timestamp, but keep in mind that command tax increases each time you do so meaning Food Chain alone won't go infinite.
@@attackoncardboard I made this comment before finishing this video where you explain it at the end.
I was unsure if, post food chain combo you could loop the commander and draw your whole deck. The other comment did a great job explaining it.
Its great that you and your comment section is so active at answering comments.
wait belo can't turn enduring courage into a creature until after its effect has turned it into a enchantment but since they are both static abilities i guess we are still going off when they entered regardless of when the effects would be applied
also courage enters the battle field as an enchantment and belo only checks once its in your control idk if that counts the graveyard? that should be where enduring is during resolution of its ability
just checked prolly could still be wrong but it does not count the graveyard so belo only checks for enchantments after the resolution of enduring courage at that point idk how the layers apply does it still act off the when they etb
611.2e If a resolving spell or ability both puts a nontoken permanent onto the battlefield and creates a continuous effect stating that the permanent “is [characteristic],” that continuous effect applies simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. This characteristic is usually a color or a creature type. If the continuous effect says the permanent “becomes [characteristic]” or “gains [an ability],” that effect applies after the permanent is on the battlefield.
this reads to me as courage is an enchantment before entering the battlefield but
611.3c Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. They don’t wait until the permanent is on the battlefield and then change it. Because such effects apply as the permanent enters the battlefield, they are applied before determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger when it enters the battlefield.
states and reads to me as bello checking at the same time so it does stay as an enchantment when it enters i think
For the first comment, Bello can apply to enchantment creatures as well as non creature enchantments so you don't need to apply the effect that makes it just an enchantment first.
Bello only applies to things on the battlefield (otherwise it would need to say "enchantment cards you own" rather than "enchantments you control").
Had a weird interaction come up recently and i want to know if i was right.
I had teferi out (the one that says opponents csn only cast spells at sorcery speed) and one of my opponents attempted to cast a spell with flash. I told them you cant because regardless of if it says flash or not teferi says you can only play spells at sorcery speed. So we looked into it and it resulted in the spell not being cast. Was this correct?
Yup. Teferi changes the rules of the game for your opponent. So basically a card with flash says "you can cast this spell at any time but only as a sorcery." Same reason why if you Plot an instant speed card, you can still only cast it at sorcery speed.
@attackoncardboard thank you for responding glad to know i was correct on that interaction
Teferi is very powerful. They also stop Cascade and Suspended cards from being cast. Lots of other neat interactions to.
My favourite is having Teferi and Knowledge Pool in play. Locks your opponents out of casting spells completely
@attackoncardboard the same teferi or a different one? I knew drannith magistrate did that but i didnt know teferi "only i can play spells at instant speed" did
Both Teferi, Time Raveler and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir shutdown Suspended spells and cards that are Cascaded into 😃 as well as being the other half of the Knowledge Pool lock
if i use true polymorph on bello and make him an arcane signet, does his ability still work?
No. Copy effects are applied on layer 1 while type changing effects are layer 4.
Song of the Dryads also works to stop him since it removes abilities as part of the type changing effect, similar to Blood Moon, which means it's also in layer 4.
Would Bello's ability overwrite on your next turn making Enduring Courage a creature again or would his timestamp prevent you from having Enduring Courage become a creature until it's bounced, flickered, or reanimated?
If Bello's ability was an upkeep trigger then each time it triggered it would have it's own timestamp, but since it's a static ability, it will keep the same timestamp as Bello itself and won't update each turn.
Blinking and stuff like that works to reset the timestamp. So does turning it face down then face up again.
So, unless Bello leaves and returns, it's not gonna be a creature again on your next turn? Also, I'd love to see a video covering the Impending mechanic's interaction with Bello. I *assume* the same applies, that it would not be a creature until the counters are removed unless Bello enters after they're out?
It's effectively the exact same interaction. Impending Creature has the earlier timestamp, they'll be a creature if Bello is played after.
If they have the newest timestamp and Bello came into play before them, they'll stay as Enchantments.
I think this is more about bad wording on Enduring Courage. The Gods specifically say in their rules text that they are not a creature when devotion is less than X but Enduring Courage is written in a way that doesn't make it clear. Especially because the "It's not a creature." part is in italics, making it reminder text and not rule text.
Right, that's one of the reasons that tripped me up. Wasn't until I asked "what does 'Is an enchantment." actually mean?" that I found out.
I don't know the rules as good as others, so I have to defer to your knowledge on things like this.
Still I want to ask this, "During your turn" sounds like a trigger ability. (Though I admit it's worded in a non-standard way). It also implies that the effect ends at end of turn (although that is usually stated explicitly). Per 611.2c, Bello's ability would gain a new time stamp when it resolves anew during your turn. So, after dying, our good boy would come back and force it's self to be an enchantment as you explained. But then on the next turn, Bello's ability's time stamp would be updated and thus change the good boy back into a creature.
Again, still not an infinite combo. But from what you're saying I'm wrong about something here.
Also, forgive a silly question, but the Enduring Courage can't be a creature when it comes back, but that doesn't stop the other parts of the change, correct? That is to say you have an enchantment that has indestructable, haste, "when this creature damages..." and a P/T. Of all that, only indestructable is useful, but technically, it's still there, right?
Triggered abilities are explicitly denoted by "When/Whenever/At".
CR603.1. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as “[When/Whenever/At] [trigger condition or event], [effect]. [Instructions (if any).]”
Bello's ability is refered to as a Static Ability.
CR113.3d Static abilities are written as statements. They’re simply true.
If Bello's ability said "At the beginning of your upkeep... become creatures... until the end of turn." Then yes, Bello's ability would get a new timestamp when this ability triggered at the start of your turn.
And yes, that's an oversight on my part. Enduring Courage at the end of the example would still have the abilities given to them by Bello.
@@attackoncardboard Thanks for the response. I appreciate your patience in dealing with me on things like this.
Yes, normally triggered effects have “[When/Whenever/At]" That's why I said it looks like a nonstandard wording to me. "Static abilities are written as statements. They’re simply true." So then why have "during"? "During" refers to a time. If it's a static ability, then it shouldn't need a reference to any game time units because it's simply true all the time, right?
I guess what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is this. What's the difference between these two (theoretical) statements?
"At the beginning of your upkeep, [this creature] gains flying until end of turn."
and
"During your turn, [this creature] has flying."
What I see: “During [trigger condition or event], [effect]." This doesn't fit for the definition of a static ability. And doesn't have the required "[When/Whenever/At]" for a triggered ability. So, it ends up feeling like a grey area of non-standard wording. (As near as I can figure, it's a wording that is used on, maybe, 100 magic cards. Most of which wouldn't cause the level of problems that Bello has been causing for people.)
Sorry for being thick headed about this.
@@jj-sc1kq
" I guess what I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is this. What's the difference between these two (theoretical) statements?
"At the beginning of your upkeep, [this creature] gains flying until end of turn."
and
"During your turn, [this creature] has flying.""
The first is a triggered ability, uses the stack and therefore can be responded to. The second is a static ability that doesn't use the stack and can't be responded to.
Question, since Bello's effect activates only during your turn, does it get a new timestamp each turn?
Bello's ability is always "active". It's always checking to see if it's your turn or not.
Remember, for static abilities, the ability's timestamp is tied to the card. itself.
@@attackoncardboard ah, thanks for the clarification, I guess a constant way to blink him would be the way to turn it into a card draw engine