When can fog be fortunate?
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- Опубликовано: 29 авг 2024
- Sabrina Cruz, Melissa Fernandes and Taha Kahn from 'Answer in Progress' discussion a question about an army-worth of arrows.
LATERAL is a weekly podcast about interesting questions and even more interesting answers, hosted by Tom Scott. For business enquiries, contestant appearances or question submissions, visit www.lateralcas...
GUESTS:
Sabrina Cruz: @answerinprogress, / nerdyandquirky
Melissa Fernandes: @answerinprogress, / mehlizfern
Taha Khan: @answerinprogress, / khanstopme
HOST: Tom Scott.
QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe.
EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin.
GRAPHICS: Chris Hanel at Support Class. Assistant: Dillon Pentz.
MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com).
FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd.
EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott.
© Pad 26 Limited (www.pad26.com) / Labyrinth Games Ltd. 2023.
Worth noting: This is from The Romance of the Three Kingdoms (not to be mistaken with the Records/History of the Three Kingdoms, though the former is based off the latter), and while the stories do use many real historical people and events, many of the events, such as the one given here, are fictional or of arguable historicity.
If memory serves, there are records of it being done, albeit by Sun Quan, not Zhuge Liang. As with many things in the period, he was falsely credited with the strategy in later retellings.
Well, that applies to most of the world's ancient history (and, especially in China and the USSR, even some pretty recent history).
Probebly a case of the amount is fictius.
because I can see them getting a few 1000 arrows by doing something like this.
or more correct do the same trick a few times army A over there we do this gets 600 odd arrows one night.
do Fog in bay 1000 arrows at Army B and so on.
in the end over the period of 3 days 5000 arrows. stories is told and the number gets inflated.
this reminds me of a old World of wacraft webcomic (just the models green screened from the model viewer and pasted onto some screenshots).
the story is the sad party of this show that I think was like 4-5 people sneaks over the boarder (some stupid quest).
one guards or a civilian sees them and reports I saw 5 maybe 6 (squad) people sneak over the boarder to a local soldier.
the soldier then runs to his local Sargent and says 10 people sneaked over the boarder.
Sargent then runs to his commander and says a platoon snuck over (20 people) and so on.
until the messeng comes to the General that gets informed half the alliance army crossed the boarder.
meanwhile the party is just sitting in some bush wondering why theres a army riding pass them.
@@Zack_Wester I can see it possibly happening with a factor less arrows. I don't know the command structure used or how battle-hardened/untrained the army was, but I suspect the fog could be used to with aggressive guerilla tactics to shake them to their core. With a bit of luck, the main limiting factor would be how many teams you could deploy, if the opposing army has been fragmented and the opposing army size.
100,000 sounds barely plausible. You would need 1.6k archers firing only 20 arrows across the day, noting that expeditionary armies around this time can be quite large. Worth nothing that archers probably won't actively carry that many arrows at a time, so the total supplies would have be quite hefty.
Of course, even ignoring that the best records we have show that this particular incident never happened, Zhuge Liang is still overhyped as the greatest prankster of them all. Who even builds a stone maze and waits ~7 years for the enemy to stumble across it, only entering in plain arrogance? Dude even captured the same warlord 7 times to prove a point.
Nice usage of the word "historicity."
As someone who read Romance of the Three Kingdoms, I immediately knew this was from the Battle of Red Cliffs. Great question, and a genius ploy by Zhuge Liang!
Same! The moment she said Zhuge Liang and 100,00 arrows I immediately recalled it even though it has been years since I last read it.
I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS EXACT COMMENT
The really cool thing about Chinese history is that these events are remembered in the public consciousness. Ask any Chinese person and they’ll know the answer. Part of it is that Chinese has hundreds of 4-letter phrases each drawing some principle through a parable like this. So when you learn the language you learn it’s history too.
You have that in other languages as well (ex., "Pyrrhic victory", "a laconic reply", etc.). Most people probably have no idea those expressions come from actual historic events, though.
“Temba, his arms wide.”
I knew because I've heard of the 36 Stratagems. Being a gamer helps once in a while.
Also, not *necessarily* 4-character phrases, mind; there are lots of proverbs/sayings (or uh, whatever else you'd translate 谚语 to, I guess) related to historical events as well, though admittedly those pop up in conversation much less often.
I knew the answer right away because I remembered it from a movie adaptation. I didn't even know the story, I stumbled by that cool scene on TV.
So other than in Chinese language/literature education, there's also at least movie adaptations of it.
I immediately knew this because there's a Magic card called "Borrowing 100,000 Arrows" in the Portal Three Kingdoms set based on this event.
Me too. Some stories are just that good.
I was thinking that very quickly too! MTG nerds getting this one!
Answer in Progress are really getting their bang for their “fangirling at Tom Scott” buck with Lateral. Always love their episodes 😂😂😂
I love Canadians!
Haha talking about "the opposing team" and Melissa talking about "the crowd"
Knew the answer to this one due to a *Magic: the Gathering* card, of all things - Magic did a set directly based on the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and this entire scheme was depicted in the card "Borrowing 100,000 Arrows". I was hopping up from my seat the moment I heard the question!
Was it a Kamigawa set?
@@thepenguin9 Without googling it, I'd have guessed it was the introductory set for Asia, themed based on marketability. And the source of horsemanship (flying, but horse)
I knew the answer thanks to anime, of all things. It was featured in "Ya boy Konming!"
@@thepenguin9 I think it was Portal: Three Kingdoms.
Portal 3K would be my guess given the theme and that p3k is essentially unknown in the wider magic world, with the exception of a couple of cards that happen to be super useful in the rare formats that allow the set.
He didn't steal the arrows, he got them delivered.
And kindly arranged for them to be returned at great speed...
OK LISTEN EVERYONE VERY IMPORTANT!!!!
I NEED this episode animated, it's just so good visually with all their theories. Someone pleeeeeeease make it, with a drumming army, small stick figures, the fog as the background character and hypnosis and everything. It's just begging for animation :)
its not a direct animation of this but i recommend ya boy kong ming. i wont spoil the story but the chinese origin of this riddle is the main reference of the anime. there is an episode inspired by this specific riddle, again not direct and i wont spoil but i think youll like it if you like tactics and brain teasers
I can almost hear all the Chinese boys shouting the answer to the screen. This is such a famous story that almost all Chinese boys (and probably girls) must have listened to in their childhood.
Anime prepared me for this episode!
Thank you "Ya boy kongming!" (hilarious anime btw)
Same here. 👍
Same
Hey Dj!
Being Hungarian somehow led to a series of events wherein I know the answer to a british trivia podcast. Life is wild
I really did not expect Tom to know Aunty Donna! Hahah! That threw me off! 3:10
Haven't they done well
@@camgage #hotsoup
I was thinking that maybe the fog was used to trick birds or something to collect feathers from them, but it hit me when they mentioned the "ultimate prank".
Know about this as we study it in Malaysia when we are in our elementary school. Even if I never read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms it's pretty well known among at least most Malaysian Chinese.
Hello fellow Malaysian Chinese and bocchi the rock fan
If you ask any person from chinese they would definitely know this because Romance of the Three Kingdoms is one of the first novels we have to read and learn. So many strategies and genius are displayed in those stories.
The first time "Yoink!" was ever uttered, no doubt.
And on the other side deafening silence when the archers start to realise and just look at each other!
i love the episodes with answer in progress
I do this in videogames. The arrows the enemy tries to hit me with are the ones it hit them back with.
Someone's been playing TOTK lately
its called the strategem of borrowing arrows. Borrow because he fired them back at the people on the 4th day.
Oh snap that looks like a lego Razor Crest on that shelf, it's a better size than I thought, I might get one. Great product placement!
This was one of my favorite questions so far. Was a joy to listen and guess along!
Everyone In comments talk about romance of the three kingdoms, while I knew this from the “ya boy kongming” anime
Hah, was looking to see if someone already mentioned it, same.
It normally takes me a long time to get these, but this I saw almost immediately
The funny thing is, this story is known as 草船借箭 which roughly translate to
"Straw boat that borrow the arrows".
The arrows was latter "return" to the enemy during the Battle of Red Cliff.
Ah I love it when I get some of my favorite people with some of my other favorite people! I love Tom Scott and AIP, this was so cool!
Well I'm quite pleased I fully got this exactly one minute ahead of Tom Scott!
And that was why Roman javelins were designed so the tips broke off when they hit something. So the opposing team members couldn’t throw them back.
I just love this channel!!!
All Dynasty Warriors veterans screaming the correct pronunciation of Zhuge Liang at the screen!
I was thinking the same as Tom with the borrowing the arrows.
But I think I'll have to remember that in case it comes in use. 🤔👍
I can't believe I've read this story but didn't remember it for this question!
This is like the prototype of the ninjutsu of swapping positions with a body double straw man and having the double take the attack. XD
Love how I knew this from ya boy Kongming xD
Ingenious!
YT channel Cool History Bros did a nice summary series on 'Romance of the Three Kingdoms'. They then compiled it into a single video which is around an hour and 45 mins.
For some reason when they said straw i thought they meant the drinking kind
normally i actually wonder how for most of the video, but got this one within a minute
Really enjoyed the aunty donna reffrence
Was my first thoight in that momnet
Tom 10/10
This one's a reallyyy good one
So they were lucky that the arrows... mist?
I'll get my coat.
He was way ahead of Skyrim players who take arrows from training dummies
I didnt know the story but once they said 'strawman' i got it immediately,, might help that im an archer and regularly pull arrows out of straw
Like others have said, I instantly recognized this because of the Red Cliff movie.
Honestly I can already get the correct answer just by the video title mentioning fog and the cover photo with some rendition of fictional Zhuge Liang.
Tom; In the latest episode of the podcast (Selfies with number 57), you mentioned Aarhus as being situated in the Netherlands. Denmark (where Aarhus is actually situated) is not a part of the Netherlands. 😉😅
i never thought an anime would help me with ancient chinese story knowledge (ya boy kongming)
It's not stealing if they are given freely.
oh my god my chinese school education FINALLY PAID OFF
Classic breath of the wild move
The Red Cliff
When you're Eminem and you lack a weather wizard.
This was a good one!
Was she implying i lose my property rights to an arrow if i fire it at you? Thats still my arrow. You are stealing it.
Blind guess: used some arrows to create the threat. Then used fake arrows using the drums to replicate/project superiority.
In retrospective: quite the opposite. Pretty clever!
"The Enemy" has nothing to do with moral values. It is simply used to indicate who is on one side or the other.
I have read multiple first hand accounts of WWII and regardless of which side the account comes from, they always refer to the other side as "the enemy".
This is the first time I figured it out before the cast XD
So it wasn't Rumpelstiltskin turning the straw into arrows?
My initial guess was that he stole arrows from his enemy and swapped it with straw in their quivers, using the drums and fog to distract the enemy.
Ah, the Breath of the Wild strategy
Straw man targets and then collected the arrows?
I'm surprised they took that long personally. Got it immediately. I think they were too hung up on the arrows specifically being MADE. I think the fact the question didn't say he made the arrows should've been a huge clue given the nature of the show.
I'm surprised it took them so long, this seemed like the most obvious set of clues so far in Lateral, and didn't really require any previous knowledge.
I'm at 1:23 :3 My guess: They used the drums and straw to collect the enemy arrows. EDIT: WOOOO I was right!
Guessed it almost immediately - don't ask me how, maybe it's the "stupid DnD schemes" part of my brain figuring what to do with the straw
Zoog Lee-Ang (Ang is like Aang, the last airbender, not like Ong from the movie xD)
I thought they were going to use the drums to somehow make ice arrows...
It's ya boi kongming
Breath of the wild strats
I learned this one from anime.
Did none of you see the Red Cliff films?!
Everything's a drum!
those who watched ya boy kongming knew the answer immediately
literally every Chinese kid know this
It was either that or asking for help from Rumpelstiltskin.
Based off the comments I will guess this didn't actually happen, but if it didn't wouldn't a lot of the arrows get lodged into the boats or get lost in the water?
The boats were covered in straw also, if I recall correctly
You shoot arrows. There's no fire involved. I'll get me coat...
I know this one, it's on a magic card.
everything's a drum
Took me 10 seconds to solve
no chinese ppl smh
Thanks dynasty warriors.