3:36 USSR gained capability to manufacture such screws in early 80s, after Toshiba along with a Swedish company illegally sold them complete 9-axis CNC mills designed specifically for this purpose. Before then, Soviets were pretty good at using titanium and other exotic materials, but not surprisingly they had issues with quality control and achieving required precision.
Its not so much the manufacturing precision that Jive finds amazing but the fact it was machined out of titanium. Titanium is notoriously hard to do any form of subtractive manufacturing on.
Thank you! I grew up with Red Storm Rising on the Commodore 64, in the late 80ies, early 90ies and thought I know a lot about subarines, U.S. and Russian. Now, I think I dont, after listening to you. It's great to dive into that topic again and hear a real enthusiast speak, thank you so much. BR
Regarding titanium being expensive: expensive is relative to country you are in, Soviet Russia had plenty to spare. They made stuff like cooking pots and paratrooper entrenching tools out of it on occasions.
Yes, but you see the properties that make titanium such a great material also make it hard to work, tools need frequent resharpening and replacement, welders need to get the metal incredibly hot to get molten metal to weld. It's just tough to work.
@@kdrapertrucker well yes, but it was indeed a very very good idea to put titanium pressure hulls. These gave extra diving depth to these attack submarines, making it imune to a lot of previous ASW torpedoes, while giving extra time for ballistic ammo like depth charges to reach the boat. Overall i do think Alfa, Sierra and Akula were absolutely great designs, only hampered by inferior USSR sonar and budget restrictions that prevented them from being in sharp condition everytime
Probably the 1st and one of the few who speaks the actual truth, specially when he talks about other country's military equipment ( submarines). Thanks, respect.
Is anyone else seeing very frequent annoying grey screens popping up? It's not happening for any other videos on RUclips for me. Jive you may want to quality check these videos before making them public on RUclips.
Same artefacting (iOS YT app). Looks like a transcoding issue. Might be a frame rate or encoding mismatch between Jive’s upload format and YT’s preparation for distribution.
Love your videos Jive! Have to say, I think the Alfa was probably my most favorite of the Russian designs. Beautiful lines of the sub to give it that slick look, as well as the technological features it had. Along with the titanium hull, I've been really interested in the liquid metal cooled reactors. Been on a kick reading up on them and all the tid-bits that go into these things. Keep up the great work man!
Would love to see this turn into a series - the Mike class is my personal favourite Russian Sub, even if like the Alfa only one ever got made. Feel free to wind the clock back to older ones like the Echo and Juliet classes too, or the Victor set. It’s good to see why the modern subs like the Akula classes get their heritage from :)
Jive Turkey is glad this will be a series :) Is it possible for you to put your sources in the video or the description? It’s not that we doubt you but it’s good to demonstrate that this is not just data pulled out of nowhere or potentially classified sources. Just insulates you from doubt :)
Many thoughts: My jaw drops every time I see a shipyard photo of the backend of a Soviet sub on the internet. All of these great subs laying about is the epitome of the Soviet mentality: produce, produce, produce, and let everything rot...because more will be made.
I recall JT saying in past their new subs would be at best performance but would soon diminish because they didn’t do the same expensive levels of maintaining that capability (blunt screw/s, etc).
Stewm: It's not a matter of producing. it's a matter of 1. Limited funds for upkeep 2. Not responsibliy disposing of old hulls and nuclear waste 3. Major economic decline with end of USSR.
You'd be wrong then. Every hull throughtout the cold war would be repurposed or kept in reserve, because USSR was at a massive industrial disadvantage to the US and they were prepared to use every antiquated sub if the war got total and casualties were massive. That's why you see rusty 1950s hulls in photos from 2000s - former strategic reserve. Eastern block never outproduced the western block, because it was ruined by the second world war, which made the US richer at the same time. To have a chance at defending themselves we had to massively undercut commercial production in favor of military etc, "cheap" designs that were cost effective instead of maximum innovation. The whole doctrine of Warsaw Pact was closing the war in Europe in under a month, because we couldn't fight a protracted conflict with all the American industry militarized and sending reinforcements.
Neither vehicle being fitted with turn indicators, break lights or warning devices, the insurance lawyers are still trying to apportion responsibility for this incident.
@@SubBrief I'm ignorant of the situation, were they aware of each other before this happened? (tracking each other etc.) I just can't understand with how HUGE the ocean is, that they can happen to be right on top of each other while surfacing.
@@GreyGeneral Kostroma displaced 9100 tons submerged. Probably just a ship handling error on her part. I wouldn't know what Baton Rouge's excuse would sound like. All conjecture. The only one's who would know for sure are the one's that were there, and those they report to. End of message. BT
@@GreyGeneral All major super powers track each other, to spy, to learn the characteristics of the submarines on the other side, AND to know where a ballistic missile submarine travels. As a result (and earlier generations of Soviet subs were quite noisy) they run into each other from time to time. There have been a fair amount of collisions between US and Soviet subs during the ''cold war''. For details, read Sherri Sontag's book about the history of submarines during the cold war.
Hitting another submarine comes down mostly to pure chance, and it's happened more than once. Which is REALLY surprising given how huge the oceans are and how close together all the submarines seem to be. But what's truly astounding is how often they hit MERCHANT ships. They're not even trying to hide. They're loud AF. They follow ROUTES. It's the at-sea equivalent of getting hit by a train!
Captain Jive Turkey, Senior ski and snowboard technician requesting permission to reboard the ship! I've been really enjoying these style of videos and decided to re subscribe and redownload Cold Waters too :) Lets see what trouble we can get into... thanks for your hard work, helpful advice, stories and service o7
Im guessing that the decommissioning of Baton Rouge had as much to do with age as with damage from the collision. Looking over the list of 688 boats, there are others (Omaha, Phoenix, Boston) that were decommissioned after the same amount of service (17 years). Although like San Francisco, im sure the damage played a part in that decision.
@@SubBrief They were ok. I preferred 637's myself. Underpowered compared to 688's, true, but they did have their advantages. Deeper diving, 5 compartments vs 3. And last but not least: the shack was not in the Control room. (That's right, we were out of control!) Good times. I am of course forgetting all about the bad times...
yup, they were reducing the size of the fleet as part of the "peace divident", and just chose boats that were the most expensive to keep in service. Thus boats that came up for SLEP, major refits, reactor refueling, etc. etc. were first on the cutting block.
Every time I say or hear the name barracuda I think Charlie’s angels with lucy liu in the leather outfit and the whip lol Titanium is very difficult to work with once it’s set it can’t be reworked like other alloys. What’s the crush depth of a entirely titanium hull? BAE explored the idea whilst designing the dreadnought class SSBN of carbon nano composite hull, but the costs of development went into orbit lol but initial projections showed it was very promising to be extremely strong and very VERY deep diving.
11th of February 1992: Test of project 675 successful. *Kinetic Submarine Detection System* successfully acquired NATO SSN where passive sonar, isotope detection, and navigational sonar had failed. Recommend proceed with additional development and retrofitting into existing SSK fleet.
my dads a machinist and did some work for the Navy back in the day. Our screws were made of some secret squirrel titanium alloy back then too. I laid eyes on it myself when I was about 12 confirmed with another person I talked to about this very subject last week btw
Titanium is very hard to work with, but if you can, you get a metal that is stronger than steel and lighter too. Result? A fast, quiet, deep-diving but expensive sub. Look at the Mike class sub for an example of how deep you can go if you design a titanium double hull well enough.
@@speed150mph almost thr entire thing and to my eyes it didnt look like a screw. a lot closer to a pumpjet bur dad pushed me away and tossed the tarp back over the piece. was not quite the normal color you'd recognize with titanium and I honestly dont remember toutching it cuz titanium is pretty unique feeling if you handled these materials before. titanium is warm to the touch. dad didn't let me get that far. .fellow old timer I literally just talked to last week told me the name of the alloy
Hmm I wonder how Barrakuda can born from Alfa/Lyra as they were created by different design bureau. Barrakuda was designed by Lazurite while Lyra was designed by Malakhit, they only share the material, and maybe the shipyard where they were built but in terms of design, there is nothing in common.
The Alfa was the best one for me because it can go very deep but its lead bismuth reactor could harden and make the whole thing useless but I think the sierra is a bit more lackluster than the Alfa no offense Oh and btw I love your videos you deserve more subs
Alfa was quite noisy, but everyone remembers her over the sierra because of her speed and first with a titanium hull. Honestly the sierra was a very capable platform and one of the reasons she still is serving today.
@@The31stcenturyfox yeah, they opted for speed over everything for the Alfa. They were the MiG-21 of submarines. High speed interceptors, trading everything else (range, crew comfort, weapons reloads, endurance, etc.) for raw speed.
Great. Now I can see the russian crew getting on deck while an American submarine surfaces next to them. And the russians point at the tower and be like "YOU IDIOTS CUT US OF BLIN!
Love your videos! I wonder we talk about deep diving subs at 1000 plus meters but would it be possible to treat the crew like saturation divers and pressurize the sub to higher atmospheres allowing the sub to dive to almost any depth? In a nuclear sub the crew might not even know
Love the titanium. Awesome choice but seriously how did they make that propeller? Using all Titanium like that was kind of showing off too since nobody else has enough of it anyway.
Titanium is common in the Earth's crust. The problem is the energy required to work with it. It oxidizes in air instantly on the surface. Very expensive to work with, especially on this scale and with the possibility of having to repair it. Decadent.
Did the US not have a hush-hush cutout route (maybe through south Africa or the french?) to aquire titanium from Russia for NASA at one point? I seem to remember it being mentioned in a video on a x-craft
Very nice vid. Wondering if the Sierra II is worth a different video analysis.. And also what about the prospected Sierra 3? PS Looking forward for you Yasen exposition!
Awsome, as always. Pls continue making shuch videos about Russian subs, I love to hear some professional opinions of you about them. Thank you very much
Recently subscribed to this channel and finding it very, very interesting, JT. One of our ships ( Shell Tankers UK Ltd ) found an Echo ( I think it was an Echo ) class on the surface near Japan back in the 1980s. The sub had suffered a fire while submerged, and there had been multiple casualties. Our ship, the SS Gari, rendered what assistance it could, and was eventually relieved by a Soviet merchantman. Perhaps you know about this incident...?
Love these videos, i'd love to see your thoughts about more submarines around the globe, Sweden is currently fixing up a pretty interesting submarine by the name of A26 type, or Blekinge-class. I find it to be quite interesting and i'd love to hear your input on it, or perhaps just about the tensions of the North sea or the Baltic sea in general.
Thank you Jive for that interesting information about this sub. I know that countries are intentionally vague on the performance characteristics of their subs, for obvious reasons. I've seen top submerged speed estimates on the internet for this sub ranging from 33 kt to 36 kt. Do you think that KFG's figures are reasonably close to actual values?
Jive what are the chances of us getting to hear some recordings of an actual sub on sonar? I assume this is/would be tricky to do as it reveals some of ownships sonar array but figure ill ask
There was a Norwegian company that was sued or was in court because they have made/sold cnc machines to russia that was making the propeller blades to the submarines in Russia...
I think there may have also been a western company that sold them software to run those machines that got mixed up in that as well. EDIT: Ah nope, the company was Toshiba.
I know you’ve said a few times the Alfa is your favourite (or up there) sub because of its capabilities. Did the USN/NATO try develop a similar (non titanium) version? I realise our mission was different to theirs, they hoped to mass deploy and overwhelm our picket line and SOSUS to get at REFORGER whilst we relied on better sonar on quieter subs hoping to catch as many as we could. I do wonder how tough those titanium hulls were if hit at 1800’ depth though. The pressure must have been unreal down there. 😳
1800 feet doesn't sound all that deep for collapse depth of a titanium pressure hull. Predicted collapse depth of the UK S class SSNs was below 2000 feet. Not that we ever went anywhere near silly depths like that. It really is not nice being at DDSTP, it concentrates the mind wonderfully well though, and as soon as we'd proven the pressure hull at DDSTP (a deep dive was conducted after every dry docking) we came shallow pronto, shallow is a term to describe a boat operating depth above 800 feet If working with another Western SSN on SUBTACEX one boat would be designated the shallow boat and one the deep. The shallow boat operated at from PD down to say 400 feet, the deep boat would have a ceiling of 600 feet. That way both boats could 'dogfight' with each other and be separated like passenger aircraft at a bust airport. At the end of each serial the boats would swap over and have at it again. SUBTACEX's were great fun, both boats zooming around the oceans just like underwater aircraft. 'Oscar, oscar, whisky....... stand by mark range Quebec over....... 'READYYYYYYYyyyyyyy....' '5,4,3,2,1, MARKKKKKK' ............'SNAPPPPPPPpp' 'SNAPPPPPpppp' .......MARKKKKkk' 'You from me, 5000 yards, Mike Corpen 270 tac 6 over' 'AGRREEEEEeee... STANBYEEeeeee' 'READYYYYyyy' And so it went on. It was great fun at the end of SUBTACEXs when both boats would play music over the Underblunder phone. We used Monty Python's intro music! Memories!
Sierra II would be the next logical step for video, but at some point I’d love to see you do my personal favourite sub class in the world, the Project 971 Akula. For me it seems very strange to see the Sierra class being numbered as B-*** since the B designation was traditionally reserved for diesel attack subs of the Soviet and Russian navies, and K being the designation for atomic powered subs. Very strange that they did this.
Jive Turkey I might be able to help. On Quora a while back I was talking shop with some sub gurus about the Akulas and other Soviet subs, and they gave me some interesting sources of information on them, only problem is your either going to need someone who speaks Russian, or spend a lot of time fussing with an online translator. I’ll see if I can find the old posts.
From what I remember reading in various books on Soviet Subs, they used "M" for "Malyutka" (small?) for coastal Subs, "S" for larger subs (like the "Whisky" class), and "B" for "Bolshoi" (large) for their ocean-going diesel subs ("Zulu", "Foxtrot", "Tango"). The "K" is supposed to stand for "Kreyser" (Cruiser), because of the extremely long range afforded by nuclear propulsion. I suppose after the fall of the Soviet Union they just re-assigned them as "B" boats.
How about the K-162 Golden Fish submarine made entirely from Titan. Its speed on one engine was higher than the speed of the torpedo. They say the first trials from the submarine peeled off all the paint and it glistened like a goldfish. Goldfish because tittan expensive to build a boat.
Love your work but need to provide proper clarification regarding the collision with the USS Baton Rouge. USS Baton Rouge was NOT decommissioned as a result of the collision. It was repaired within a couple months and we were right back out doing ops. I was part of her crew and have first-hand knowledge of this event. Boat was decommissioned because of budget cuts instead of being refueled but we still spent plenty of time at sea following this incident.
So, when the Baton Rouge and that Sierra got into their accident with each other did they surface and the captains exchange information? And did the accident cause their insurance rates to go up afterwards?
@Jive Turkey >>> When the Russian sub hit the _Baton Rouge,_ was it because the American sub was _undetectable_ even that close, or just *operator error* on the part of the Russians?
They painted a "kill" on the Krab-Kostroma after they fixed the sail, it was the Baton Rouge that was written off as a result. To me it seems like a ramming by the titanium hulled boat, commander of which knew how to take minimal damage.
I have a question. How is it that there are multiple instances of submarines colliding with one another? Both vessels would surely have sonarmen actively scanning for even the tiniest sound out of place, yet this still happens. The collision in this video I understand; you mentioned she was within the baffles of the other ship - but in cases such as the USS Gato colliding with K-19, I don't understand how they could miss one another? In the middle of the cold war no less! Love your videos, super informative and entertaining!
There are a lot of factors including environmental conditions and human error. THere is almost never one reason for collision, there is just a series of conditions that setup the event.
@@SubBrief Thanks for the reply! I'm also reading now that the Barents Sea is known for noisy, choppy waves. Interesting how you can pick up a fart on an enemy sub in the right conditions, and then smash into one in the wrong ones!
Bear in mind that subs travel in a very dark environment and the only window they have is sonar and some subs are quieter than the environment they operate in. Additionally subs tend to operate in silence. Even if they hear something and are able to identify it, they will either avoid it or track it. Tracking it is a tricky task as well as you are unable to place it in the environment with 100% certainty.
I'd be curious to see how the Sierra compares to the Project 685 (Nato callsign 'Mike') sub, given they were both 1980s era attack sub technology testbeds.
@@malusignatius It's questions like those that make me wish I still had access to the most recent copy of Jane's @ work. The things you give up when you muster out.
Aron: "The Shark gill sonar was the best they had. Add non accoustic detection like wake detection and isotope detection" Litterally T-bones a 688 because they cant see the worlds biggest barn door 100feet infront of them... And in true arrogant Russian style they claim a kill...
Man this kind of videos are very interesting but I really miss you giving us a little bit more what is your opionion about the sub. Is good? why is good? what are the weak points compared to the us counter part... etc.
Those where the two I thought and congrats on 30k I started watching the day before jingles gave you the shoutout and man I’ve been hooked ever since keep up the great work
Yeah right, except the US captain decided to run away like a scaredy-cat without even checking if the other vessel needed help, considering the force of the collision. Why did he do that you might ask? Because he knew damn well that he was in the wrong and decided to retreat without surfacing. Even though All the maritime rules pretty much state exactly the opposite in this situation. How did this even happen you might also ask? Here is how it transpired: K-276 under command of Captain Igor Loktev was on the routine training exercise in the home waters and was on the way to the surface to make a scheduled radio transmission back to base. Since they were in what they thought was their own back yard, they didn’t consider the far away contact that they had been tracking earlier, as a foreign submarine. And so the K-276 continued a gradual accent to surface. US boat lost contact with K-276 and made a dash to the last known position making a whole bunch of miscalculated moves in the process. First of all the adversary miscalculated the actual position, course and most importantly the depth of the Russian sub, placing himself ABOVE the K-276. When captain Igor Loktev finally gave the order to surface to periscope depth, it is then the K-276 rammed into the belly of the US boat somewhere in the region of the left bottom, forward of the conning tower. K-276 suddenly started dropping to the bottom but regained level course and immediately decided to surface about 2 km from the site of the incident because it suspected that one of the fishermen boats was sliced open by its own conning tower. To their surprise there was nothing on the surface but clear night sky with bright stars all around. As it turned out later, “Baton Rouge” had suffered a somewhat considerable fire and some casualties on board due to accident but was obviously able to make it back to safety on its own. It was a lengthy repair to the mangled sail of K-276 but one must realize what kind of conditions were in the post Soviet Russia during that time with economic breakdown and lack of funds and a complete breakdown of supply chain at the repair facilities. None the less the repairs where completed on the sail and K-276 once again became an operational boat for a few years in the new Russian navy, whereas “Button Rouge” was deemed unrepairable and stricken from further service.
Titanium it seems has properties desirable for having as a submarine hull. Lightweight, a non-ferrous metal I believe that perhaps magnetic sensors would have difficulty in detecting, strength for deep diving but the right tensile strength to withstand attack? What would a metallurgist have to say in comparing titanium to cold rolled steel? Downside of course is Ti is highly expensive and difficult to work with.
Hearing the 'tic tac titactac tac titactac ' (click your tongue against the roof of your mouth and you'll have what it sounded like) of Shargill or was it Sharkfin (?) in LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) mode was a bit sobering. The Soviets meant the LPI to be mistaken for bio (porpoises, snapping shrimp etc) and its very short pulse length meant our intercept kit refused to hear it. HOWEVER the UCs of the RN Submarine Service had at their disposal the Mk1 earhole and superb training (we really, really did know our stuff), using exceptional passive sonar we could pick out the 'tac tictactac' quite easily. Dealing with it was a different ball game altogether! EEEEEeeeeeeek!
Wikipedia claims bunch of Sierras and Alfas have been / are getting modernized. Seems a bit surprising - how much could the updates reduce noise compared to Virginias? Yasens?
6:00
Literally nobody: “what’re these doors”
Me: “those doors sir, are the problem”
good reference.
touché, touché ;D
"You don't miss much, do you? ...Those are too big to be torpedo tubes. Would you launch an ICBM horizontally?"
@@MyCatInABox "Sure, but why would you want to?"
@MyCatInABox “sure... why would you want to?”
This videos remind me of high school, when i played an unhealthy amount of Jane's Fleet Command. Thanks for doing this.
3:36 USSR gained capability to manufacture such screws in early 80s, after Toshiba along with a Swedish company illegally sold them complete 9-axis CNC mills designed specifically for this purpose. Before then, Soviets were pretty good at using titanium and other exotic materials, but not surprisingly they had issues with quality control and achieving required precision.
Not swedish. Kongsberg is a Norwegian company.
nope ! @@jonaswallmyr
Its not so much the manufacturing precision that Jive finds amazing but the fact it was machined out of titanium. Titanium is notoriously hard to do any form of subtractive manufacturing on.
Yes and it was durable as heck
What was illegal about it?
Thank you!
I grew up with Red Storm Rising on the Commodore 64, in the late 80ies, early 90ies and thought I know a lot about subarines, U.S. and Russian. Now, I think I dont, after listening to you. It's great to dive into that topic again and hear a real enthusiast speak, thank you so much.
BR
Glad you enjoyed it!
Regarding titanium being expensive: expensive is relative to country you are in, Soviet Russia had plenty to spare. They made stuff like cooking pots and paratrooper entrenching tools out of it on occasions.
That's a good point.
Yes, but you see the properties that make titanium such a great material also make it hard to work, tools need frequent resharpening and replacement, welders need to get the metal incredibly hot to get molten metal to weld. It's just tough to work.
@@kdrapertrucker well yes, but it was indeed a very very good idea to put titanium pressure hulls. These gave extra diving depth to these attack submarines, making it imune to a lot of previous ASW torpedoes, while giving extra time for ballistic ammo like depth charges to reach the boat.
Overall i do think Alfa, Sierra and Akula were absolutely great designs, only hampered by inferior USSR sonar and budget restrictions that prevented them from being in sharp condition everytime
Definitely want to see more vids like this
Me too.
Probably the 1st and one of the few who speaks the actual truth, specially when he talks about other country's military equipment ( submarines). Thanks, respect.
Is anyone else seeing very frequent annoying grey screens popping up? It's not happening for any other videos on RUclips for me. Jive you may want to quality check these videos before making them public on RUclips.
Also seeing them on mobile
I blame Putin
Seeing the grey glitch blocks appearing every few seconds while playing back on PC.
Same artefacting (iOS YT app). Looks like a transcoding issue. Might be a frame rate or encoding mismatch between Jive’s upload format and YT’s preparation for distribution.
Watching on android running YT app - I had the glitches as well.
Love your videos Jive!
Have to say, I think the Alfa was probably my most favorite of the Russian designs. Beautiful lines of the sub to give it that slick look, as well as the technological features it had. Along with the titanium hull, I've been really interested in the liquid metal cooled reactors. Been on a kick reading up on them and all the tid-bits that go into these things. Keep up the great work man!
thank you
Would love to see this turn into a series - the Mike class is my personal favourite Russian Sub, even if like the Alfa only one ever got made.
Feel free to wind the clock back to older ones like the Echo and Juliet classes too, or the Victor set. It’s good to see why the modern subs like the Akula classes get their heritage from :)
I will get to all submarines eventually. It will just take time.
Jive Turkey is glad this will be a series :)
Is it possible for you to put your sources in the video or the description? It’s not that we doubt you but it’s good to demonstrate that this is not just data pulled out of nowhere or potentially classified sources. Just insulates you from doubt :)
You do know the Alfa was a class of seven completed boats? :)
You're thinking papa
Many thoughts: My jaw drops every time I see a shipyard photo of the backend of a Soviet sub on the internet. All of these great subs laying about is the epitome of the Soviet mentality: produce, produce, produce, and let everything rot...because more will be made.
The Soviet Union produced and incredible number of submarines.
I recall JT saying in past their new subs would be at best performance but would soon diminish because they didn’t do the same expensive levels of maintaining that capability (blunt screw/s, etc).
Stewm: It's not a matter of producing. it's a matter of 1. Limited funds for upkeep 2. Not responsibliy disposing of old hulls and nuclear waste 3. Major economic decline with end of USSR.
You'd be wrong then. Every hull throughtout the cold war would be repurposed or kept in reserve, because USSR was at a massive industrial disadvantage to the US and they were prepared to use every antiquated sub if the war got total and casualties were massive. That's why you see rusty 1950s hulls in photos from 2000s - former strategic reserve. Eastern block never outproduced the western block, because it was ruined by the second world war, which made the US richer at the same time. To have a chance at defending themselves we had to massively undercut commercial production in favor of military etc, "cheap" designs that were cost effective instead of maximum innovation. The whole doctrine of Warsaw Pact was closing the war in Europe in under a month, because we couldn't fight a protracted conflict with all the American industry militarized and sending reinforcements.
Engineers: How much titanium should we use in this design?
Soviet Navy: Da.
Woooo! I love the Sierra 1. I love the angry shark face.
rawr
Neither vehicle being fitted with turn indicators, break lights or warning devices, the insurance lawyers are still trying to apportion responsibility for this incident.
it was a crazy collision. I think the Baton Rouge got caught.
@@SubBrief I'm ignorant of the situation, were they aware of each other before this happened? (tracking each other etc.) I just can't understand with how HUGE the ocean is, that they can happen to be right on top of each other while surfacing.
@@GreyGeneral Kostroma displaced 9100 tons submerged. Probably just a ship handling error on her part.
I wouldn't know what Baton Rouge's excuse would sound like.
All conjecture. The only one's who would know for sure are the one's that were there, and those they report to. End of message. BT
@@GreyGeneral All major super powers track each other, to spy, to learn the characteristics of the submarines on the other side, AND to know where a ballistic missile submarine travels. As a result (and earlier generations of Soviet subs were quite noisy) they run into each other from time to time. There have been a fair amount of collisions between US and Soviet subs during the ''cold war''. For details, read Sherri Sontag's book about the history of submarines during the cold war.
Hitting another submarine comes down mostly to pure chance, and it's happened more than once. Which is REALLY surprising given how huge the oceans are and how close together all the submarines seem to be.
But what's truly astounding is how often they hit MERCHANT ships. They're not even trying to hide. They're loud AF. They follow ROUTES. It's the at-sea equivalent of getting hit by a train!
Captain Jive Turkey, Senior ski and snowboard technician requesting permission to reboard the ship!
I've been really enjoying these style of videos and decided to re subscribe and redownload Cold Waters too :) Lets see what trouble we can get into...
thanks for your hard work, helpful advice, stories and service o7
I do love your videos like this. I never knew she had a six bladed screw, let alone a titanium one.
she was an odd duck
Great stuff ! Thanks Jive ! I also appreciate the improvement in video editing. ^^
I'm getting better at this.
I would think that titanium would also reduce the magnetic signature somewhat, although there is still a lot of steel inside.
You are right.
That's the catch - titanium dampens the magnetic field.
Im guessing that the decommissioning of Baton Rouge had as much to do with age as with damage from the collision. Looking over the list of 688 boats, there are others (Omaha, Phoenix, Boston) that were decommissioned after the same amount of service (17 years). Although like San Francisco, im sure the damage played a part in that decision.
SSN 690 was decomm'd in 2010. 688 class was a good design.
@@SubBrief They were ok. I preferred 637's myself. Underpowered compared to 688's, true, but they did have their advantages.
Deeper diving, 5 compartments vs 3. And last but not least: the shack was not in the Control room.
(That's right, we were out of control!) Good times.
I am of course forgetting all about the bad times...
yup, they were reducing the size of the fleet as part of the "peace divident", and just chose boats that were the most expensive to keep in service.
Thus boats that came up for SLEP, major refits, reactor refueling, etc. etc. were first on the cutting block.
Robert - typical sonar weenie.
@@poppys3728 Lol. Absolutely. Most fun I ever had with my pants on. Best job on the boat. 😎
I'm glad I found this channel, Love these videos and all the content.
Every time I say or hear the name barracuda I think Charlie’s angels with lucy liu in the leather outfit and the whip lol
Titanium is very difficult to work with once it’s set it can’t be reworked like other alloys.
What’s the crush depth of a entirely titanium hull?
BAE explored the idea whilst designing the dreadnought class SSBN of carbon nano composite hull, but the costs of development went into orbit lol but initial projections showed it was very promising to be extremely strong and very VERY deep diving.
That's not a bad thing.
11th of February 1992: Test of project 675 successful.
*Kinetic Submarine Detection System* successfully acquired NATO SSN where passive sonar, isotope detection, and navigational sonar had failed. Recommend proceed with additional development and retrofitting into existing SSK fleet.
I enjoy your objectivity. Many thanks for these reviews.
Shark Gill brings back memories, not nice to be on the receiving end of this active sonar! Kildin Island, many happy nights spent at the disco there.
Lol just bc Russia has most of the world's titanium.. "What the hell! Let's make the entire screw out of it! That'll show those capitalists!"
my dads a machinist and did some work for the Navy back in the day.
Our screws were made of some secret squirrel titanium alloy back then too. I laid eyes on it myself when I was about 12
confirmed with another person I talked to about this very subject last week btw
Entire screw? Dude, the entire submarine hull is made of titanium. 🤣
Titanium is very hard to work with, but if you can, you get a metal that is stronger than steel and lighter too. Result? A fast, quiet, deep-diving but expensive sub. Look at the Mike class sub for an example of how deep you can go if you design a titanium double hull well enough.
@@speed150mph almost thr entire thing and to my eyes it didnt look like a screw. a lot closer to a pumpjet bur dad pushed me away and tossed the tarp back over the piece.
was not quite the normal color you'd recognize with titanium and I honestly dont remember toutching it cuz titanium is pretty unique feeling if you handled these materials before.
titanium is warm to the touch.
dad didn't let me get that far. .fellow old timer I literally just talked to last week told me the name of the alloy
still did work for Lockheed amd is currently doing work for Boeing but is being super secret style about it. wont tell me jack
Awesome! Can't wait to see Sierra II!
I'll add that to the list.
Yes Mr Wayne, it does come in black.
lolz
Hmm I wonder how Barrakuda can born from Alfa/Lyra as they were created by different design bureau.
Barrakuda was designed by Lazurite while Lyra was designed by Malakhit, they only share the material, and maybe the shipyard where they were built but in terms of design, there is nothing in common.
Papa -> Alfa -> Sierra They all used Titanium hulls.
@@SubBrief Designed in a span of decades by different people for different purposes
The Alfa was the best one for me because it can go very deep but its lead bismuth reactor could harden and make the whole thing useless but I think the sierra is a bit more lackluster than the Alfa no offense
Oh and btw I love your videos you deserve more subs
Alfa was quite noisy, but everyone remembers her over the sierra because of her speed and first with a titanium hull. Honestly the sierra was a very capable platform and one of the reasons she still is serving today.
we going to get all the subs.
agreed.
yeah, the Alfas were a very good concept but the molten salt reactors were a liability more than an asset in many cases.
@@The31stcenturyfox yeah, they opted for speed over everything for the Alfa. They were the MiG-21 of submarines. High speed interceptors, trading everything else (range, crew comfort, weapons reloads, endurance, etc.) for raw speed.
You’re on the money with this video! Just whack up some pictures and let Jive Turkey talk about them, simple but really good.
it's a gift. lol
Yeah totally agree
great information series :-) thank you
you're welcome.
and I thought that Killerfish Games made up the shark teeth. Nice to know! Thanks Captain Jive!
nope, they are real.
Holy beep! That is a huge piece of titanium!!
Awarded a kill! 😂 That is gold!
Russians are fond of taran manovers. They use to ram US ships if close to their waters. Not considered act of war but still...
Great. Now I can see the russian crew getting on deck while an American submarine surfaces next to them.
And the russians point at the tower and be like "YOU IDIOTS CUT US OF BLIN!
lol
@@SubBrief "Where did you learn to drive, Beijing?"
"There goes my insurance premium!"
Love your videos! I wonder we talk about deep diving subs at 1000 plus meters but would it be possible to treat the crew like saturation divers and pressurize the sub to higher atmospheres allowing the sub to dive to almost any depth? In a nuclear sub the crew might not even know
Love the titanium. Awesome choice but seriously how did they make that propeller? Using all Titanium like that was kind of showing off too since nobody else has enough of it anyway.
I don't know how they did the propeller. That one baffles me.
Titanium is common in the Earth's crust. The problem is the energy required to work with it. It oxidizes in air instantly on the surface. Very expensive to work with, especially on this scale and with the possibility of having to repair it. Decadent.
Did the US not have a hush-hush cutout route (maybe through south Africa or the french?) to aquire titanium from Russia for NASA at one point? I seem to remember it being mentioned in a video on a x-craft
@@Chironex_Fleckeri welding was really hard as well ive heard
Thank you.
Very nice vid. Wondering if the Sierra II is worth a different video analysis.. And also what about the prospected Sierra 3?
PS Looking forward for you Yasen exposition!
Awsome, as always. Pls continue making shuch videos about Russian subs, I love to hear some professional opinions of you about them. Thank you very much
Recently subscribed to this channel and finding it very, very interesting, JT. One of our ships ( Shell Tankers UK Ltd ) found an Echo ( I think it was an Echo ) class on the surface near Japan back in the 1980s. The sub had suffered a fire while submerged, and there had been multiple casualties. Our ship, the SS Gari, rendered what assistance it could, and was eventually relieved by a Soviet merchantman. Perhaps you know about this incident...?
Love these videos, i'd love to see your thoughts about more submarines around the globe, Sweden is currently fixing up a pretty interesting submarine by the name of A26 type, or Blekinge-class. I find it to be quite interesting and i'd love to hear your input on it, or perhaps just about the tensions of the North sea or the Baltic sea in general.
Thank you Jive for that interesting information about this sub.
I know that countries are intentionally vague on the performance characteristics of their subs, for obvious reasons. I've seen top submerged speed estimates on the internet for this sub ranging from 33 kt to 36 kt. Do you think that KFG's figures are reasonably close to actual values?
What about the one and only Mike class, K-278 Komsomolets
I'll add it to the list!
Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting.
Jive what are the chances of us getting to hear some recordings of an actual sub on sonar? I assume this is/would be tricky to do as it reveals some of ownships sonar array but figure ill ask
I'd have to find some unclassified clips.
There was a Norwegian company that was sued or was in court because they have made/sold cnc machines to russia that was making the propeller blades to the submarines in Russia...
I think there may have also been a western company that sold them software to run those machines that got mixed up in that as well. EDIT: Ah nope, the company was Toshiba.
@@W1ldTangent with the machines we sold they could make more silent propellers
But you left out the important details like: does the Helms Men have furry dice hanging up and how many cup holders do they have? :)
Great video jive, give us Sierra II and the charlies next
okay.
I know you’ve said a few times the Alfa is your favourite (or up there) sub because of its capabilities. Did the USN/NATO try develop a similar (non titanium) version?
I realise our mission was different to theirs, they hoped to mass deploy and overwhelm our picket line and SOSUS to get at REFORGER whilst we relied on better sonar on quieter subs hoping to catch as many as we could.
I do wonder how tough those titanium hulls were if hit at 1800’ depth though. The pressure must have been unreal down there. 😳
the 688 was our counter to Victor, Sierra, Akula and Alfa. It was better in a lot of important ways, but it was not as fast as the Alfa.
1800 feet doesn't sound all that deep for collapse depth of a titanium pressure hull. Predicted collapse depth of the UK S class SSNs was below 2000 feet. Not that we ever went anywhere near silly depths like that.
It really is not nice being at DDSTP, it concentrates the mind wonderfully well though, and as soon as we'd proven the pressure hull at DDSTP (a deep dive was conducted after every dry docking) we came shallow pronto, shallow is a term to describe a boat operating depth above 800 feet
If working with another Western SSN on SUBTACEX one boat would be designated the shallow boat and one the deep.
The shallow boat operated at from PD down to say 400 feet, the deep boat would have a ceiling of 600 feet. That way both boats could 'dogfight' with each other and be separated like passenger aircraft at a bust airport.
At the end of each serial the boats would swap over and have at it again.
SUBTACEX's were great fun, both boats zooming around the oceans just like underwater aircraft.
'Oscar, oscar, whisky....... stand by mark range Quebec over.......
'READYYYYYYYyyyyyyy....'
'5,4,3,2,1, MARKKKKKK'
............'SNAPPPPPPPpp'
'SNAPPPPPpppp'
.......MARKKKKkk'
'You from me, 5000 yards, Mike Corpen 270 tac 6 over'
'AGRREEEEEeee... STANBYEEeeeee'
'READYYYYyyy'
And so it went on. It was great fun at the end of SUBTACEXs when both boats would play music over the Underblunder phone.
We used Monty Python's intro music!
Memories!
Sierra II would be the next logical step for video, but at some point I’d love to see you do my personal favourite sub class in the world, the Project 971 Akula.
For me it seems very strange to see the Sierra class being numbered as B-*** since the B designation was traditionally reserved for diesel attack subs of the Soviet and Russian navies, and K being the designation for atomic powered subs. Very strange that they did this.
Akula will be a special occasion. I am working on getting better sources right now.
Jive Turkey I might be able to help. On Quora a while back I was talking shop with some sub gurus about the Akulas and other Soviet subs, and they gave me some interesting sources of information on them, only problem is your either going to need someone who speaks Russian, or spend a lot of time fussing with an online translator.
I’ll see if I can find the old posts.
From what I remember reading in various books on Soviet Subs, they used "M" for "Malyutka" (small?) for coastal Subs, "S" for larger subs (like the "Whisky" class), and "B" for "Bolshoi" (large) for their ocean-going diesel subs ("Zulu", "Foxtrot", "Tango"). The "K" is supposed to stand for "Kreyser" (Cruiser), because of the extremely long range afforded by nuclear propulsion. I suppose after the fall of the Soviet Union they just re-assigned them as "B" boats.
Do a video on the kilo!
I can do that!
I wonder if you could review the 41 for Freedom ? I had served on 616 blue 64-68 sonar tech
image breaks down at me a LOT
It's the GRU interfering with my broadcast.
Please make video about yasen class.
How about the K-162 Golden Fish submarine made entirely from Titan. Its speed on one engine was higher than the speed of the torpedo. They say the first trials from the submarine peeled off all the paint and it glistened like a goldfish. Goldfish because tittan expensive to build a boat.
Love your work but need to provide proper clarification regarding the collision with the USS Baton Rouge. USS Baton Rouge was NOT decommissioned as a result of the collision. It was repaired within a couple months and we were right back out doing ops. I was part of her crew and have first-hand knowledge of this event. Boat was decommissioned because of budget cuts instead of being refueled but we still spent plenty of time at sea following this incident.
Hey first comment... cool. Love Submarines. Other than planes it’s my favorite tech to study in history.
You found the right channel.
Mine too
YES, THESE ARE GONNA BE AWESOME
I'm just getting started.
What going on with the picture bits displayed in here? Is it like a small mystery?
"B-276 Kostroma hasn't been to sea in years" *puts on titanium hat* Thats just what they want you to believe man!
Rafted means that the propulsion machinery is mounted on a rubber raft, not on rafters.
yeah, I messed that up. Probably shouldn't even describe it as a raft (because that is the truth) for OPSEC.
I was watching another one of your videos when this popped up! : ]
I interrupted myself with myself.
@@SubBrief Apologize to yourself!
@@SubBrief Is there a renderer issue or something? Or is Pjhuuuutihn disrupting YT?
it's those pesky communist
Didn't the Alfa also have the cutting edge lead bismuth reactor? And it's top speed was record breaking because of it.
So, when the Baton Rouge and that Sierra got into their accident with each other did they surface and the captains exchange information? And did the accident cause their insurance rates to go up afterwards?
Excellent and interesting.
Glad you enjoyed it
@Jive Turkey >>> When the Russian sub hit the _Baton Rouge,_ was it because the American sub was _undetectable_ even that close, or just *operator error* on the part of the Russians?
They painted a "kill" on the Krab-Kostroma after they fixed the sail, it was the Baton Rouge that was written off as a result. To me it seems like a ramming by the titanium hulled boat, commander of which knew how to take minimal damage.
I have a question. How is it that there are multiple instances of submarines colliding with one another? Both vessels would surely have sonarmen actively scanning for even the tiniest sound out of place, yet this still happens. The collision in this video I understand; you mentioned she was within the baffles of the other ship - but in cases such as the USS Gato colliding with K-19, I don't understand how they could miss one another? In the middle of the cold war no less!
Love your videos, super informative and entertaining!
There are a lot of factors including environmental conditions and human error. THere is almost never one reason for collision, there is just a series of conditions that setup the event.
@@SubBrief Thanks for the reply! I'm also reading now that the Barents Sea is known for noisy, choppy waves. Interesting how you can pick up a fart on an enemy sub in the right conditions, and then smash into one in the wrong ones!
Bear in mind that subs travel in a very dark environment and the only window they have is sonar and some subs are quieter than the environment they operate in. Additionally subs tend to operate in silence. Even if they hear something and are able to identify it, they will either avoid it or track it. Tracking it is a tricky task as well as you are unable to place it in the environment with 100% certainty.
I think the cool thing was when both sides politicians talked about it they didn’t turn it into the Cold War style drama.
What are we automating in the galley?
What is the difference between an attack and a search periscope??
I'd be curious to see how the Sierra compares to the Project 685 (Nato callsign 'Mike') sub, given they were both 1980s era attack sub technology testbeds.
None of them ended up on the bottom?
@@NorthForkFisherman Well, that's a start...
I was thinking more along the lines of tech specs and capabilities.
@@malusignatius It's questions like those that make me wish I still had access to the most recent copy of Jane's @ work. The things you give up when you muster out.
@@NorthForkFisherman True that.
@@NorthForkFisherman I've never served, but I've had a few positions which gave me access to resources that I wish I could have kept my hands on.
Очень хорошая лодка и отличный выпуск! С любовью из России)
OK, Russian stressing is confusing. It's KostromA, a city in Russia north of Moscow
Aron: "The Shark gill sonar was the best they had. Add non accoustic detection like wake detection and isotope detection"
Litterally T-bones a 688 because they cant see the worlds biggest barn door 100feet infront of them...
And in true arrogant Russian style they claim a kill...
they don't mill the titanium. I heard on RT they do something like grow it as a single crystalline structure.
Man this kind of videos are very interesting but I really miss you giving us a little bit more what is your opionion about the sub. Is good? why is good? what are the weak points compared to the us counter part... etc.
I'll add a little more opinion in the future. Good call.
@@SubBrief thank you very much. Apreciated!
Great video
Thank you, Mark.
The Sierra were beautiful subs. Definitely the most advanced Russian Sub until the Akula succeeded it.
Why retractable bow planes?
what would you say was the most capable soviet/russian submarine while you were in active service?
Probably an alfa
Improved akula
alfa was good.
Those where the two I thought and congrats on 30k I started watching the day before jingles gave you the shoutout and man I’ve been hooked ever since keep up the great work
Pure titanium screw
*TOSHIBA WANTS TO KNOW YOUR LOCATION*
"Kudos to the Soviet Union" -Jive Turkey 2019
You have to know your Enemy.
I reached EAOS on the Baton Rouge just before it deployed on the crash cruise.
Good time to get off the boat.
Free flood area... Does that mean the sub is driving tons or water around with it? Is that typical of all subs?
Facinating
Hey jive! I’m an acoustic operator on p8’s can you make a video about how they help find subs and track them.
do they ever find them ? ha ha just joking... sort of!
@@passivehouseaustralia4406 yeah alot of times we do and some we dont its all up to intel
When the Sovietunion renames a damaged Sub to "Krab" on the day you were born..Feels bad man
I want to see the 2 sub captins exchangeing insurance papers after the collision :D
Yeah right, except the US captain decided to run away like a scaredy-cat without even checking if the other vessel needed help, considering the force of the collision. Why did he do that you might ask? Because he knew damn well that he was in the wrong and decided to retreat without surfacing. Even though All the maritime rules pretty much state exactly the opposite in this situation. How did this even happen you might also ask?
Here is how it transpired: K-276 under command of Captain Igor Loktev was on the routine training exercise in the home waters and was on the way to the surface to make a scheduled radio transmission back to base. Since they were in what they thought was their own back yard, they didn’t consider the far away contact that they had been tracking earlier, as a foreign submarine. And so the K-276 continued a gradual accent to surface. US boat lost contact with K-276 and made a dash to the last known position making a whole bunch of miscalculated moves in the process. First of all the adversary miscalculated the actual position, course and most importantly the depth of the Russian sub, placing himself ABOVE the K-276. When captain Igor Loktev finally gave the order to surface to periscope depth, it is then the K-276 rammed into the belly of the US boat somewhere in the region of the left bottom, forward of the conning tower. K-276 suddenly started dropping to the bottom but regained level course and immediately decided to surface about 2 km from the site of the incident because it suspected that one of the fishermen boats was sliced open by its own conning tower. To their surprise there was nothing on the surface but clear night sky with bright stars all around. As it turned out later, “Baton Rouge” had suffered a somewhat considerable fire and some casualties on board due to accident but was obviously able to make it back to safety on its own.
It was a lengthy repair to the mangled sail of K-276 but one must realize what kind of conditions were in the post Soviet Russia during that time with economic breakdown and lack of funds and a complete breakdown of supply chain at the repair facilities. None the less the repairs where completed on the sail and K-276 once again became an operational boat for a few years in the new Russian navy, whereas “Button Rouge” was deemed unrepairable and stricken from further service.
Very nice briefing! Bravo Zulu, bubblehead!
Titanium it seems has properties desirable for having as a submarine hull. Lightweight, a non-ferrous metal I believe that perhaps magnetic sensors would have difficulty in detecting, strength for deep diving but the right tensile strength to withstand attack? What would a metallurgist have to say in comparing titanium to cold rolled steel? Downside of course is Ti is highly expensive and difficult to work with.
About a year ago . 5 captains and two civilians. A soviet sub went bad...it was a mysterious story...what the dickens was that about ? ...bravo c yaz
can you do the Astute class Subs
Yes.
The "OK 650" means "around 650"
Is that a Attack Submarine?
Aye aye captain
Every once in a while, the video will glitch with a grey static effect for a half second
A sub to sub collision, what even are the chances?
Hearing the 'tic tac titactac tac titactac ' (click your tongue against the roof of your mouth and you'll have what it sounded like) of Shargill or was it Sharkfin (?) in LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) mode was a bit sobering. The Soviets meant the LPI to be mistaken for bio (porpoises, snapping shrimp etc) and its very short pulse length meant our intercept kit refused to hear it.
HOWEVER the UCs of the RN Submarine Service had at their disposal the Mk1 earhole and superb training (we really, really did know our stuff), using exceptional passive sonar we could pick out the 'tac tictactac' quite easily.
Dealing with it was a different ball game altogether! EEEEEeeeeeeek!
ITS OK! -> the reactor
Wikipedia claims bunch of Sierras and Alfas have been / are getting modernized. Seems a bit surprising - how much could the updates reduce noise compared to Virginias? Yasens?